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BROseidon
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Post Post #8225  (ISO)  » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:07 pm

In post 8221, RayFrost wrote:The concept that ADCs are forced into the game because they're needed to bring down towers is a bit silly to me, since you could just as easily argue that junglers are forced into the game because they're needed to maintain non-tower objective control and level/gold efficiency. Or arguing that supports have to exist for similar reasons. There are mechanics about the game that lead to people feeling these choices are the best. This doesn't mean the game is inherently broken for those mechanics existing that reward the aforementioned style of play.


You're making a really false comparison here. You're conflating two concepts in the MOBA space: Income/Map position vs. Character Role

Income/Map position refers to where (in the early game) a given player sets up to collect income. In LoL, there are 5 Income Positions: Top, Mid, Bot, Jungle, and None. Top/mid/bot exist because the are the lanes, jungle exists because it's there and gives gold, and none exists because there is 1 fewer source of gold than players. Because characters scale different, it's better to pick 1 character that doesn't require gold to be useful than to split a gold source between two characters. "None" started going bot b/c of dragon (better to have your extra body there to protect dragon than top, and long lanes are more risky for 1 person than 2), and that's mostly held even as things like Rift Herald have been added.

ADC is a Character Role, which refers to the general mechanical space that a given character occupies. These, in LoL, break down into: ADC, Support, Tank, Bruiser, Melee Carry, Mage, Assassin. Examples and 1-line definitions of each are:

ADC: Ashe. Provides sustained, ranged, auto-attack based damage
Support: Janna. Provides defensively-focused CC/utility (shields, heals, etc)
Tank: Leona. Provides offensively-focused CC and is a "tanky" character
Bruiser: Shyvanna. Tanky character focused on disruption via damage over CC
Melee Carry: Master Yi. Squishy, high-sustained damage via auto-attack melee character
Mage: Brand. Ranged, CD-based damage character.
Assassin: LeBlanc. High-mobility burst character with long CCs.

The lines b/w these classes aren't 100% clean-cut (for example, Alister is largely a tank with a support quality in his heal), but you can draw a heptagon with these as the points and place champions on that heptagon.

Positions being forced into the game is something that's going to happen no matter what. There are X sources of gold on the map, and the places people go will reflect that. Roles being forced into the game enforces a specific style of play over another. Every team having ADCs from the beginning of time has very much informed how people play the game, and that's why a game w/o an ADC feels so wildly different (like, say, Hjarnandinger at Worlds). ADCs being systemically OP is limiting to the strategies that could can be employed, because you historically typically couldn't do something like Heimer bot. Now you can, except Riot didn't go far enough in this regard and open up enough options.

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Post Post #8226  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:05 am

In post 8222, BROseidon wrote:
In post 8219, zoraster wrote:I don't think MF is more similar to Brand, but if you want to test the idea that MF and Ashe are fundamentally similar, one way to look at it would be to look at their win rate by patch, though you'd want to note any time either of their kits had major changes. You'd probably also want to throw in a couple of ADCs that are DEFINITELY different, like Tristana and Ez. If MF/Ashe have win rate movement that mirrors each other, then (particularly if Tris/ez move opposite), you might get a sense that they're really similar to each other. You could also look at their win rate by game length to to see if their curves are similar.


That doesn't really hold because differences within a class can also be meaningful. "ADCs are systemically broken" doesn't mean "all ADCs are broken at all times." In fact, it can't, because every team having 1 ADC (in most metas/with a few exceptions) means that ADCs as a class will even out to a 50% winrate. In addition, once you get past "ADCs are required on all teams," the difference WITHIN the class become more meaningful b/c every team HAS to have one.

I don't think of Ashe as very similar to MF though other than both are fairly immobile ADCs (though MF's movement speed buff is nice). Just thinking team composition-wise, I don't think the reasons you'd pick Ashe or MF would be very similar. Ashe brings a ton of utility to the team that MF doesn't, for one thing. And I mean... for the past couple of years their builds have been truly different.


Except they are both ADCs. They both provide 0-CD AD based sustained damage. They both stay at range and use a certain spacing skillset. Most importantly, those things are very valuable at taking objectives (especially sieging turrets)

I've heard Bro's complaints about ADCs before which have basically not changed. I remain unswayed as to whether it's a bad thing or even as to the reason that ADCs have been a very consistent fixture in the game, though I at least think there's some merit as to that.


It's very the case that ADCs are required because they're decently balanced for every part of the game except taking turrets where they are the best class. There are other champs that provide great scaling, sustained damage in fights (Karthus and Cass, for instance), but they've NEVER been meta in bot lane because, well, try sieging a turret with Karthus lol.


You put way, way, way too much focus on long range sieging of turrets. ADCs power comes from their ability to put out sustained long-range damage, but it's not because they're able to peck at turrets. That's been super important in some metas, but not in many (including this one).

Let's go through a pro series played recently, FNC vs. EDG. Here is EVERY tower taken:

Game 1

1(EDG). Broxah goes top to try to gank Ray, EDG respond by sending Haro to bot lane where they push Rekkles and Hylissang off the turret and take the tower. (Deficio: "Now haro can go bot lane because Broxah showed himself top")
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2(EDG). Scout (on Leblanc) takes a turret uncontested top side (she's 4/0/1 at this point and up like 30 CS)
3(EDG). iBoy, Meiko, Haro simply push Rekkles (who has no wave clear) and Caps off the turret) midlane
4(EDG). Rekkles is dived while he defends midlane tier two turret, dies to the combo of Haro (on Xin) and Meiko (on Rakkan) as well as iBoy's Xayah. Simply take the turret after this.
5(FNC). Caps pushed top lane while tower 4 was going on, doesn't actually get the turret immediately (he falls back when he sees Ray) but minions finish it off despite Ray getting there before the turret goes down.
6(EDG). Everyone's bot lane! This would be a time when that ADC range plays a big part. But it doesn't really because the turret falls as a result of a Meiko engage onto Caps followed up by Haro leading to a big team fight. iBoy finishes off the turret (while he's in melee range of the turret fwiw).
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7(EDG). The top tier 2 turret falls. This is actually an example where the range does play a significant part because it's Scout (who is ranged on Leblanc) and iBoy attacking from the back while Fnatic are left with only an Alistar to try to engage on them from too far away.
Image
8(EDG). Mid inner turret falls to a baroned up 3 players, all of whom are melee. But EDG is so far ahead at this point it doesn't matter.
9-10(EDG). Up 14k with Baron, they just kill them and take the turrets at the same time.

EDG wins 9 turrets to 1. The game wasn't very competitive, but the overall story was winning turrets by fighting or threatening a fight, not the type of siegery that was seen in some previous metas.

Game 2
1(EDG). Similar to turret 1 in game 1. Broxah shows himself mid for a dive, Haro goes bot, pushes Rekkles and Hylissang off, takes first turret.
2(FNC). Bwipo (Viktor) has slowly pushed the top lane into Ray (Shen) leading to turret 1 for FNC about 30 seconds after the first turret. Ray has to back off because he doesn't have vision of Xin and Haro is bot lane.
3(FNC). Mid lane fight! FNC aces EDG and takes mid lane tier 1 after.
4(FNC). Bwipo forces Ray out of bot lane, Broxah summons Rift Herald. Bot Tier 1 goes down uncontested.
5(FNC). Bwipo basically forces Ray out of the Tier 2 turret because Ray knows Broxah is around. Bwipo has no problem taking the turret down even though he's not an ADC.
6-8(FNC). Baroned up and with Scout down, FNC takes top Tier 2, top Inhib turret, Mid Tier 2 in very quick order.
9-11(FNC). Bot Inhib turret. A desperate fight takes place, baroned up minions still going. Then nexus turrets. No need for sieging, Caps does most work here.

FNC wins 10 turrets to 1. None that I could tell relied on the long range poke of the ADC to siege turrets. But like the other game, this was not a closely fought game.

Game 3

1(FNC). Meiko and Haro both collapse on Caps midlane, leaving bot lane exposed with iBoy having recalled. FNC use this opening to take the first turret.
2(EDG). EDG summon rift herald mid while Caps is dead, easily getting the turret.
3(EDG). Herald gets a good charge on Tier 2 mid, EDG push up enough to push back FNC. Get it.
4(FNC). Five man stack pushes up past turret and takes it easily. Hard to see what happened here, but clearly not the case of a siege.
5(EDG). Caps (on Yasuo) pretty ineffective at 1/4, can't push lane out and Scout and Haro take top Outer turret uncontested.
6(EDG). Ray (on Poppy) takes bot Tier 1 uncontested.
7(FNC). Fnatic take mid Tier 2 after winning a team fight around Dragon, getting Baron.
8(FNC). Bot Tier 2 with Baron, FNC push past the turret and use the Orn ultimate and Glacial Fissure to zone EDG out, taking it and falling back.
9(FNC). EDG get baron but lose Meiko and Ray. FNC push down mid and take inhib turret and inhib uncontested. (They tried to end but couldn't)
10(EDG). EDG gets a turret from a large minion wave while the two teams fight it out in mid.
11-12(FNC). 3 dead for EDG at Baron means FNC just pushes in and wins with ease.

Closer game! No siegery with ADCs.

Game 4
1(FNC). First turret doesn't fall until the 17th minute. Rekkles and Hylissang rotate from mid to bot where Bwipo is and they grab Tier 1 bot.
2(EDG). Haro and Scout respond by taking out Tier 1 top. Caps has to fall back and cede it.
3(FNC). Fnatic win a fight, take out Scout, and get the rest low. Despite losing Rekkles, they push past the turret and take Tier 1
Image
4(FNC). Minions take down top Tier 1 while Baron fight is occurring.
5-7(FNC). Fnatic win a teamfight around Baron, push two lanes with baroned up minions with only Scout alive for 30 seconds when they take their 4th turret. They get Mid tier 2, top tier 2, mid inhib turret (and inhib), top inhib turret and inhib) before recalling. They aren't contested.
8(FNC). This is maybe the best time you could say that the ADC "sieged" a turret because Bwipo (on Swain) and Rekkles are using baroned up minions to step forward, take a shot, and then fall back while Caps ushers in two lanes of baroned up super minions.
Image
9-10(FNC). Lotsa super minions.

--
I'm not saying that the ADC's ability to quickly attack turrets for good damage from a distance is unimportant, but you've signed up for this overarching theory of League of Legends that doesn't really match the reality of play. Sieging happens, but there are plenty of other ways to get turrets down (and in fact the majority don't rely on sieging).
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Post Post #8227  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:06 am

The TLDR is that I think you haven't really updated your thinking on the game if you believe that ADCs are "mandatory" because of their sieging potential. There are metas where that was a huge part of what they did, but this isn't that meta. ADCs ability to pump out consistent mid to late game damage (yes, from a distance) is their primary reason for their resilience.
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Post Post #8228  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 3:22 am

But in those Poke focused, siege metas, the ADCs that are exceptional tower takers weren't even the main component. Season 2 and 3 had a lot of that poke comp shit and it was mostly focused around Nidalee, ezreal, caitlyn, lux, ziggs and Jayce.

Outside of basically just the ardent meta (best meta tho), the game as never really been focused on zoning a tower and blowing it down with Tristana/Jinx etc.

Tl;Dr bro is talking out of his ass per usual.
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Post Post #8229  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:41 am

In post 8227, zoraster wrote:The TLDR is that I think you haven't really updated your thinking on the game if you believe that ADCs are "mandatory" because of their sieging potential. There are metas where that was a huge part of what they did, but this isn't that meta. ADCs ability to pump out consistent mid to late game damage (yes, from a distance) is their primary reason for their resilience.


No I'm saying that it's the core reason why they've never fallen out of meta in favor of other forms of sustained, ranged damage (or no sustained, ranged damage at all)

Also oh wow you used 4 examples that really counters an overarching point about this history of the game effectively.

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Post Post #8230  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:42 am

In post 8228, Panzerjager wrote:But in those Poke focused, siege metas, the ADCs that are exceptional tower takers weren't even the main component. Season 2 and 3 had a lot of that poke comp shit and it was mostly focused around Nidalee, ezreal, caitlyn, lux, ziggs and Jayce.


Uh...

Also this is missing the entire point, because, again, it's not about ADCs compared to each other, but ADCs as a class.

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Post Post #8231  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:58 am

Yeah, exactly one of those is a traditional adc. So AS A CLASS, in a siege meta, you see more mage and fighters than traditional, shoot stuff carries. And the counter was heavy engage tanks and assassins to corral the squishy long range guys and take them down.

I get that you hate ad carry, but try not to be a dipshit.

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Post Post #8232  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:47 am

Uh you still saw 2 ADCs every game no matter what?

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Post Post #8233  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:48 am

Like my point is that "at least one ADC per team" has been forever true because they're systemically OP and it doesn't matter that other stuff moves around it b/c ADCs are still always just busted

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Post Post #8234  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:49 am

That in any specific meta certain other champs are individually OP or certain comps dominate isn't germane to that, because it always exists in the framework of at least 1 ADC per team

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Post Post #8235  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:52 am

In post 8229, BROseidon wrote:
In post 8227, zoraster wrote:The TLDR is that I think you haven't really updated your thinking on the game if you believe that ADCs are "mandatory" because of their sieging potential. There are metas where that was a huge part of what they did, but this isn't that meta. ADCs ability to pump out consistent mid to late game damage (yes, from a distance) is their primary reason for their resilience.


No I'm saying that it's the core reason why they've never fallen out of meta in favor of other forms of sustained, ranged damage (or no sustained, ranged damage at all)

Also oh wow you used 4 examples that really counters an overarching point about this history of the game effectively.


It does though. If the argument is "the core reason ADCs are used in every meta is they are the best at long range turret sieging" (ignoring the fact that this year they weren't used in every game), then an example of how the current meta does not use ADCs to take turrets via sustained ranged adc damage is sufficient to disprove the point. The EDG/FNC match was not unusual in terms of the picks or how the games played out. The sustained ranged damage is the reason they're used, yes, but it's not because they need to take turrets from afar.

Again, there are certainly metas where the ADC being able to take turrets in contested situations was incredibly important, but that doesn't go all the time, so this "overarching point" does not hold.
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Post Post #8236  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:14 am

In post 8232, BROseidon wrote:Uh you still saw 2 ADCs every game no matter what?


it's cause ability based character scale better on levels dude. y u think lucian and corki were solo laners for a while? Only reason lucian is back is cause all the non-ability based ADCs now are fucking awful beside the the on hit dudes. Cause AD items are trash. Like, being made about ADCs is like being mad about the 1 position in DotA. But hey man, keep being mad.
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Post Post #8237  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:31 am

AD items don't suck. The problem is that there's only two good items that are any good, because Riot has a hate boner for critical chance. The zeal items used to be the best DPS items in the game just from attack speed alone. Now you're paying for some dumbass passive ability you never wanted.

This is more for the regular LoL thread but something on my S9 wishlist is removing Bork and putting the active onto Stormrazor along with making the item ranged only. Bork's a bandaid item from league of cleavers/health stacking preseason 3 and it's not really possible to get to the same amount of HP as people did back then. Plus that's supposed to be crit's job.

Riot won't do that because Stormrazor is just the next attempt to remove crit from the game. If you're always critting, you're not really critting.

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Post Post #8238  (ISO)  » Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:05 pm

Finals are tomorrow night

You know how you walk into a room and your brain creates a new "area" for it?

It's November and I'm already more hyped for Carlsen vs Caruana and Starcraft this month.

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Post Post #8239  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:53 am

drafts for both teams have both been bad

the only good decision all series was the jax flex to avoid the camille aatrox flex, but then fnatic put viktor mid and last picked urgot

it's fitting that fnatic lose with soaz on a dog champ

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Post Post #8240  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:34 am

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Post Post #8241  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:39 am

In post 8062, BROseidon wrote:
In post 8029, Panzerjager wrote:Sorry, I'm here for the blue bloods. Play-ins were fun, but it's time for all the western teams to go home. Brackets are for Korea and China. I hope Flash Wolves and Fntic are the two non-korea, non-china teams.


This comment is aging very well :D


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Post Post #8242  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:25 am

Eh you already moved the goalposts.

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Post Post #8243  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:33 am

How? Eastern teams better was the goal post, always. Since you made that post to bust my balls, the east is undefeated.

And there was 1 good series in this entire tournament, and a western team wasn't in it. This worlds will be remembered as being garbage aside from the classic between ig-kt. "Best worlds meta" ohohohoho.

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Post Post #8244  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 8:39 am

IG didnt once have a bad draft...

Also it's about time Rookie was able to show just how good he is. Best player in the world and no one talked about him until now. Seriously people, watch more lpl.

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Post Post #8245  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:03 am

Lol.

Yeah, Rookie has been good for a while, he's consistently outplayed Scout the last two years, and was better than xiye in gauntlet last year. He played xiaoyu about even in lpl finals. The issue last year was that West was no good at all and Ning hadn't fully arrived yet. If anyone thought Rookie was the problem, they weren't watching. The reason no one talked about him is because *most* people don't watch until worlds(and when they do watch it's only LCS) and then they read the "best players at worlds stuff" and just think everyone not on the list sucks. That's just the way it is. How many people do you think know how good Yagao and Loken are and how they potentially could of taken IG out of worlds all together if a 50/50 baron went the other way? 2 of the best players in the world in Tarzan and Viper didn't make world's due to a *really* bad game 5 draft against Gen G, who came to world 3 weeks later and stunk it up. Dotesports had an article up today title "5 reasons why IG can upset FNC tonight" when IG was the betting favorite last night. People don't pay attention and the media covering esports is either 2nd rate or produced riot as advertisement.

Edit: Also a big reason that EDG made worlds last year and IG didn't is because iBoy is like 4 months older than JackeyLove
Last edited by Panzerjager on Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #8246  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:06 am

Like, how many people do you think know without looking it up that Rookie despite being Split MVP didn't have the most mvp performance points? 1st was doinb
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Post Post #8247  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:34 am

I'm going to watch tonight!
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Post Post #8248  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 11:57 am

It's real funny how quit it got now that the west proved they were garbage even in a meta that favored them. Goodbye people who only watch once a year. See you next year.
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Post Post #8249  (ISO)  » Sat Nov 03, 2018 12:28 pm

you just exhaust people
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it's time for the CHIVE to ARRIVE

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