A question about sportsmanship

[Sudo_Nym]

So, let's assume I'm playing a sports video game, and I'm in a league with other people. Let's further assume that I already have the game won, with no possibility of losing. Furthermore, completely theoretically of course, let's assume that I choose to take advantage of this by playing to injure my opponents players, but I do so in a way that's entirely within the rules. Am I being a poor sport in this situation?

[SleepyKrew]

Yes.

[Cheery Dog]

I don't think bending rules to injure players is sportsmanlike.

(unless it's a stupid sport that injures are meant to be happening in)

[chamber]

I mean. It depends on lots of things? How competitive is the group as a whole? Do you have the expectation that they would do so to you? Are you playing something like blood bowl where its more expected in the game? Are you just playing with friends as an excuse to get together with them (making it a dick more)? Or are you all very serious about this game (making it probably the expected play)?

[Korts]

Do the injuries have effects beyond the game at hand? If they do, you're being a giant douche. If not, you're a smaller one.

[Mr. Flay]

I agree with Kortsdog.

[CooLDoG]

they would fuck you up, so fuck them over first.

[chamber]

Do the injuries have effects beyond the game at hand? If they do, you're being a giant douche. If not, you're a smaller one.

I would think the opposite, but still think its entirely dependent on the existing social contracts, which can't be properly judged without any context.

[zoraster]

If it's a video game, I don't know that I see it as very problematic if it gives you some sort of overall advantage in winning a league or something. Presumably he can pull his players when he knows it's over. The bits of data on the screen are not real people.

If it's real life, you should probably be removed from the league and shamed publicly.

[Zachrulez]

If it's a video game, I don't know that I see it as very problematic if it gives you some sort of overall advantage in winning a league or something. Presumably he can pull his players when he knows it's over. The bits of data on the screen are not real people.

If it's real life, you should probably be removed from the league and shamed publicly.

They should integrate an option into the next madden where you can offer your players money to injure people, just so you can try to get away with bounties like the Saints did.

But yeah, if the game is clearly over, get your starters out of the game. There is an advantage to injuring star players in a sports sim in a league mode. If that becomes a problem, there is an option to turn injuries off in most sims.

[Thestatusquo]

It's angle shooting for sure. I think that whether or not it is in good faith depends on whether or not you are playing seriously or casually.

[zoraster]

would it be more acceptable if serious or casual, TSQ? Because I could see that cutting both ways.

[JDodge]

it's more acceptable if you're playing this for serious with actual stakes as you're using an existing gameplay element to gain a competitive advantage - in a casual setting, you're just kind of ruining the other guy's fun

[Sudo_Nym]

Some context might be helpful, I guess. I'm playing in a competitive Blood Bowl league (Blood Bowl is basically football+Warhammer). The league I'm playing in is divided into 3 divisions, roughly as the English Premier League is, so there's a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd division, and teams can be promoted or relegated between the three. We're in league 2, and I've just been promoted from 3, so I'm arguably the weakest team in the division, on paper. So I see an opportunity to weaken an opposing team, and I take it, even though it won't help me, because I've already won the game, and we won't be playing again this season. He doesn't have a chance to pull his star players, because the ball is only "dead" at halftime or after somebody scores; so instead of scoring and letting him get his star players out of danger, I deliberately keep the ball alive so I can continue injuring them.

[zoraster]

That is totally in keeping with the entire ethos of Blood Bowl.

[CooLDoG]

perfectly acceptable in a game where you killing other people in the league is a game mechanic.

yeah, in this game that is considered to be normal behavior.

[Thestatusquo]

Yeah, what JD said is what I meant. In a competitive setting, you're trying to win. The other guys enjoyment isn't the point. The point is to win. By that standard, the only evaluative tool for cheating that matters is "Does this strategy exist within the context of the game."

This can include things like psychological stuff and slow playing things etc. In poker its referred to as angle shooting. In this case, its pretty cut and dry because you're not even doing anything extra-game. You're just using existing game mechanics to get an advantage in an ongoing competition. I don't see how anyone could reasonably say that is poor sportsmanship.

If you're playing for fun with friends with no sort of set competition structure, then you're just being a dick.

[Thestatusquo]

Blood bowl is sweet, btw.

[Sudo_Nym]

We can always set up a Mafiascum league, if you guys want in

Thanks. Usually, I figure that it'd be no big deal, but I usually don't opportunistically foul- in casual games, it's a douche move, and in competitive games, I'm usually too busy trying to win to bother taking time out to do nothing but injure players. And my opponent cried bloody murder when he discovered my intention, which made me wonder.

[bv310]

I don't even know what it is, but I'd be in.

[mykonian]

We can always set up a Mafiascum league, if you guys want in

Thanks. Usually, I figure that it'd be no big deal, but I usually don't opportunistically foul- in casual games, it's a douche move, and in competitive games, I'm usually too busy trying to win to bother taking time out to do nothing but injure players.

And my opponent cried bloody murder when he discovered my intention, which made me wonder.

Well, that makes it clear. Don't be like him.

[Thestatusquo]

This is relevant.

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing- ... art-1.html

[Korts]

That article offends my sensibilities. If refusing to play without grace makes me a scrub, so be it, but that does not at all mean that I am automatically a loser. I'm still perfectly capable of anticipating my opponents playing "to win" and preparing countermeasures, and as long as I'm competent enough, I won't need to resort to optimal strategy at the expense of aesthetic.

I never bothered to learn snake shots in foosball, for instance, because I think they're too easy to do and too hard to defend--plus they look like shit. I did, however, learn to defend against them, because hey, just because I don't take those shots doesn't mean others won't. And I'm a pretty good foosball player.

[Thestatusquo]

I agree with the article that if you are making up your own set of rules that are extraneous to the game and based off of your own sensibilities of how the game "ought to be played" then you are not playing to win, which is what they mean by "scrub." You are not a high level gamer. That's fine if you're not aspiring to be. But, and this is the important part, do not be surprised, or offended when you attempt to play people who are high level gamers and you lose because they are only playing by the constraints of the rules of the game, and you are playing by arbitrary self imposed standards.

Grace is winning. That's really the only way to look at in my book. If you're playing the game for aesthetics outside of that then I think we will spend a long time talking past each other trying to discuss this, because I really can't understand that perspective.

This might be an interesting read for you, though.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/A ... aily/mr11b

[Junpei]

you're playing a video game? lolwell thats different

in real life thats awful and disgusting because people make livings and feed their families by playing. Theres a brotherhood and community amongst the players that will never be broken.

in a game who cares, its just nba2k12 or whatever it is, not even real.