BattleCON: War, Devastation or Fate of Indines

[Zorblag]

Troll supposes that Shot be made more powerful by the force gauge in terms of being able to at least trade coupled with the hit confirm, but Troll no be sure how much more Troll be using it in games than Troll would have otherwise. It possibly be due to the matchups Troll has been playing where Trading no actually be that useful because of the opponent (Lixis a lot, and Adjenna) Troll's player (Demitras at least once,) or the various styles that stop hits. It might be interesting to see how much more Shot be used in games by taking a look at forum games pre and post force gauge somewhere that has a good sample and seeing how much more Shot be used as the base of choice over all match ups. Troll still tends to value burst and drive a bit more for the movement effects.

The lack of symmetry for the options does be a nice change. It makes the Power Ante actually threatening now which Troll likes.

The timing issue Troll initially thought was uninteresting to Troll, but now Troll be thinking about playing Magdelina and Troll sees that it has potentially serious implications. Like with any change, it will benefit some characters more than others, and this one changes the games to be between probably 10 and 16 beats (the theoretical minimum be lower, but 10 probably be about as low as it would go in most cases.) Still, even taking a couple beats away from the 15 makes a difference to characters who either need time to get something done (Magdelina and Adjenna spring to mind,) or those who might be inclined to run out the clock if them have a lead (which Troll no knows well enough to identify offhand, and might depend on matchups.) Troll almost thinks that a pool of 44 counters might be better than 40 for preserving old balances. That would take the range of game lengths to closer to 12-sh to 18 which feels less disruptive.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[GreyICE]

A basic idea of BattleCON is that the bases are Rock Paper Scissors lizard Spock.

Grasp beats Strike and drive
Drive beats burst and shot
Strike beats shot and drive
Shot beats grasp and burst
Burst beats grasp and strike

That's already a little tenuous because this all assumes starting at range 1, but look at Shot again. With Stun Guard 4 it suddenly beats, goes even, or loses by 1 damage vs every base in the game. The only thing that beats it cold is power ante Strike.

I mean the reasons the start positions were adjusted already was Shot. It's a high power base with flexible range and built in stun guard. That's really good. It risks the game being divided into "shot is up" and "shot is down" phases, like Dash but with ugly punish potential.

[Zorblag]

*nods* Troll knows about the how the bases pair up if we assume that the fighters be at range 1 and not adjacent to the edges of the arena.

But why not say Drive is the overpowered one with Stun Guard 2? It has the same outcomes or slightly better outcomes (beating Grasp by 1, losing to Strike by 1 if the player no chooses to make that a draw by driving out of melee range which Shot can't do, drawing with Shot and beating Burst by 3.) If we want to worry about how adding a power ante to the opponent changes things (which it does,) then the only one that beats drive cold is the power ante grasp (which be 3 damage instead of 5 from the strike.)

There be other issues like the range, the ability to re-position, and all the styles and UAs which do all their crazy things, but just looking at bases, drive's weaknesses be as covered by the force gauge as Shot's do, if not more.

Shot also still be a great base, but Troll again no thinks that it has an edge of drive just from base comparisons.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[GreyICE]

Drive has limitations. It's range 1-3 effectively, as opposed to shot's 1-4, it has no innate stun guard so if you do beat it then it's really easy to stun out of. I'm not saying its weak, but 3 is an incredibly important number in BattleCON. Being able to hit 3 stun guard makes you proof against a whole lot of pairs. 4 makes you proof against all of those with power ante.

I dunno, but I do know that with a lot of characters I think Shot is going to be my go to if I can't really rely on countering anything. Sometimes trading is just fine.

[Zorblag]

Troll can do this too of course.

Shot has limitations. It's below the average speed of 3 as opposed to above it, so it's almost always going to be going second as opposed to drive which will often be able to hit first and stun an opponent. It also doesn't allow for any re-positioning which can be a big deal for some matchups. Troll no be saying that shot is weak, but 3 is an incredibly important number in BattleCON. Having priority greater than 3 and being able to keep that advantage by being able to ante Priority +2 if you be worried about it to consistently lets you outright win against a whole lot of attack pairs and at least trade against many others.

In fact either the priority of the stun guard help drive a lot.

Mind you, Troll mostly just objecting to the idea that Shot be by far the best base with the addition of Force Gauge. It certainly be one of the stronger bases and it will continue to be used often, but it depends a lot on the matchup (and which cards be in the discard at any given time.) Perhaps there be more characters for whom it will take a step up, but there be plenty of kits that even with 4 stun guard it still no be the universal counter (especially with the ability to ante the +1 power.) Perhaps GreyICE will have different experiences, but Troll no be seeing it as dominant play in the games that Troll has played because so many characters have some way to overcome stun guard or attacks at various ranges.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/108929 ... -battlecon

[Accountant]

I got into this lately. I have been trying to play a lot of Seth games.

[Zorblag]

If Accountant has any interest in playing forum games, just let us know. Troll has only played Seth against Lixis. Troll found it more stressful than many matchups. Seth do be a character with plenty of potential though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

I'm interested in maining him. How would FGs work?

[Accountant]

Seth has one of the best finishers tbqh

[Zorblag]

Seth's finisher, if you no be in a huger hurry, do be very nice. It no ends the game right away like some others, but it was a huge advantage and be nicely in line with the rest of Seth's abilities. Troll would say it be one of the most thematic at the very least.

Force Gauge no be too much of an issue for Seth; him still uses his guess of a base to cover the possible opponent attack pairs, but also has the force gauge to both cover some weaknesses, but also needs to be aware that the opponent might use it. Did there be a particular question about the force gauge you had in mind?

In general, probably be a good choice to main if you plan to play them at all. The experience in play will pay off with any character, but Seth probably benefits for it more than most.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

Forum Games, not force gauges. To be honest, I think every newbie should play Seth once or twice - my understanding of bases and how they interact has improved by leaps and bounds since I started playing him.

[Zorblag]

Ah, Troll usually sees that as pbf (play by forum.) We be using spoilers which works just fine, though it also be possible to use a moderator that both players submit attack pairs to (it just adds an extra person and time to the mix for the benefit of less need to rely on both players being honest; Troll chooses to go with a belief of honesty unless there be a reason not to.)

Here be Lixis vs. Clive. That was back when Troll made an effort to make it pretty to look at for those who might be trying to follow.

Here be Lixis vs. Magdelina which be ongoing. It now just has enough information for KingdomAces and Troll to follow easily. The threads in general should be easy to identify in Mishmash as Troll has tried to standardize the titles.

As far as new players playing Seth once or twice, Troll suspects that the games would depend on the player. Troll's Seth plays were games 10, 12 and 13 here (and certainly in the first 20 games Troll has played ever,) but Troll no came away with that feeling of knowing how the bases interact was particularly strengthened. Troll has watched a lot of videos on the game though, and Troll finds that the forum games give enough time to not need to boil things down to the base interactions so much as really look at exactly what attack pairs will do. Drive beats Shot in the abstract, but so many things can change whether that be true when Styles, UAs, board position and the force gauge be added that knowing that interaction on it's own be less helpful to Troll.

In any case, if Accountant do be interested in playing then just let Troll know! Troll or probably KingdomAces would most likely be happy to play. GreyICE might as well. We could even try to run a tournament if we had at least 4 interested players.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

I'd be

very

interested in playing BattleCON via forum. For me, I usually play on Tabletop Simulator, a Steam game which allows you to emulate a real-time BattleCON game online. Seth improved my game a lot because I needed to spend twice as much time on a single move, considering both my attack pairs and my opponent's. For that reason, learning the bases was much more useful for me, because it streamlined that part of the thinking process easier. Instead of trying to run through all the options, I can just go "oh - I'm at range 3, with burst in my discard. He probably expects a shot and is going to drive." Yes, there are situations where drive doesn't beat shot, but I'd argue that the base interactions are where you first think off. Unless my opponent is at a far higher level than me(I'm mostly playing with beginners like myself) he's not going to jump immediately to the optimal attack pair, he's going to think "drive > shot" and then consider if there's any style or force ante that would let him change that.

[Zorblag]

*nods* that be fair enough. Troll wonders if you have seen This BattleGuide on Seth? If not it might be interesting to watch if you plan on maining Seth. Marco has done videos for all the characters which often be worth watching in Troll's opinion, but Seth be particularly useful both because Marco has some insight on the UA that might not be obvious and because Seth be essentially his main.

For forum games, if you like Troll be happy to set one up between the two of us. Do you have any characters you would like to play against? Troll be working through characters to try to get many played. Troll still has many to go, so Troll be pretty open to playing many.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

I have seen the BattleGuide on Seth.

I played Seth in two games today - both of them were very satisfying. The first was against a Kallistar. I dodged a few of her attacks early on and whittled her down, but she nailed me with a couple of big swipes that left me at 1(!!!) health, while she was at 8. Throughout the next 5 beats, she was unable to do any damage to me at all and I ended up finishing her off. I was especially proud of that because I managed to survive for 5 beats against her.

The second one was a particularly crushing game I played against Dimitras. The person who played Dimitras expressed strong frustration that I was able to predict his beats and out priority what should have been the faster character by far. Due to my passive and his lack of crescendo(since he couldn't hit me and I hit him) he couldn't smack me at all. I found that Vanishing Shot was very effective at nailing Dimitras when his dash was down. We ended the game 17-0.

I'm mixing playing Seth and non-Seth characters to try out more characters while still getting experience on Seth. I would be interested in playing against any character. Pick one that you think is fun to play.

[Zorblag]

Troll will go with Mikhail then. He's one Troll hasn't tried and Troll no feels there be anything in the UA that makes Seth particularly dangerous or overpowered. Troll will need a bit to look over the kit, but then Troll will set up a thread in Mishmash!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

What is UA? Oh, by the way - how would you advocate dealing against Cadenza? I played a Seth game against him and I... straight up died. He walked up to me, hit me, and I died. I tried hitting him back, to no avail(he iron bodied my omen stun). 12-0 loss, with me dodging only one of his attacks.

[Zorblag]

UA is unique ability. Seth's Beyond Eyes, Mikhail's Seal Tokens, Cadenza's Iron Body and so forth.

Hmm, Seth vs. Cadenza.

Cadenza do be somewhat predictable and slow, but the stun guard means that he will hit most of the time anyhow and will trade positively. The iron body ante against the omen stun hurts, but the player has to see it coming.

Troll would probably try to play that one at a distance as Seth has enough attack pairs that deal with distances well (causing opponents to miss) that you can almost cover Cadenza and get in a hit or two. It was a big part of what Troll had to try against Lixis where normal trading doesn't work well.

Troll would have to try a matchup to see if that be viable though. Troll also no be any sort of expert at either character, so perhaps there be other was to go about finessing Cadenza that no spring immediately to mind.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

Yeah, but Cadenza has tons of advances and his grapple shot is long-distance

[Zorblag]

Yeah, Grapnel be the only style with range on it, and there only be one style that advances before the end of the beat. The fact that Mechanical be end of beat for the advance actually is something of an issue as you can't stun it with Omen, but dancing around and keeping range as much as possible would be Troll's first attempt at a strategy. Troll would be happy to try to play Seth against Cadenza at some point to see if Troll could manage something, though Troll promises no results.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

Maybe after our game together then! Although if we're going Seth vs Cadenza I'd prefer to play Seth - I think I improve best if I play against strong or difficult matchups.

[Zorblag]

So do you want to play with the Force Gauge and Dodge as them exist now or do you prefer Special Actions or Dash?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Accountant]

Force Gauge and Dodge, please.

[Zorblag]

The game be up and ready to go in the Mishmash thread!

-Zorblag R`Lyeh