Newbie 2104 | Mafia Private Thread

[catboi]

Hi!

Two quick questions to start things off:

What's your role? I'm a mafia goon.

How much experience do you have playing mafia?

[catboi]

[catboi]

always sad when a newbie doesn't pick up their role PM. But hopefully I get a new teammate soon.


To whoever takes the slot: hello! You probably aren't aware of me, but I'm one of the best scum players on this site. Playing scum is very challenging and not always intuitive for a beginner to grasp, but I greatly enjoy the alignment. Too often people give themselves a complex about playing scum where it makes the game harder and less enjoyable for them. I would like to make this game fun for you and try to help you be the best scum player you can be. Always feel free to bring your questions or concerns to me. I believe that successfully fooling people is one of the most rewarding experiences in this game.

Let's kick this town's butt.

[catboi]

okay, cool. so we're in column C. that's a good spot for us to be in, fewer dangerous PRs, a little more freedom to play around.

Could you answer my question about experience? how'd you find mafiascum? do you have any idea of what strategy you want to use this game?

[catboi]

also, are you hyped? nervous? confused? a swirling void of emptiness?

let's get hyped!

[catboi]

you're probably going to be in enormous trouble for that post, I have no idea what you were thinking given you literally posted in here. I hope you have a good explanation?

please

actually start talking to me in here. Communication is the basis of any successful scumteam and without it the game is going to be significantly harder. I am on your side. I want to help you out. What's got you so uptight?

[catboi]

okay, I get it, you got jumped on for a very odd mix-up. Don't sweat it just keep calm and post naturally and suspicion will probably dissipate.

[catboi]

what post did you find troublesome? Also I've played Mafia before, but not in a while, and this is my first time playing on Mafia Scum, found the site looking for online Mafia games

the thing maestro was jumping on as a slip, the lack of explanation was troubling even though you posted in here first. But your explanation made sense and hopefully people accept it.


That's cool, what type of games are you used to playing? are they heavy on power roles or more basic?

[catboi]

Also do you want to kill kkirigiri? she claims to have one of use nailed down

We can talk about the night kill when we get out of Day 1, which is a long way away. She's also townreading you so I wouldn't panic. Reads can always shift and I'm not particularly bothered by early pressure on me.

[catboi]

all right. I'm not going to coach you too much, I thinkyour best bet is just keep doing what you're doing and play the part of a clueless townie. i am slightly paranoid people will read way too much into things if i start giving you advice in the game thread so I'm not going to do that.

[catboi]

unless, of course, you want any tips from me or whatever

[catboi]

It's only a mistake if it gets you killed. That's all I'll tell you. For now, yeah, you make reads with the idea that "i would have thought this as town", that's enough to fake something that sounds believable. we can maybe talk about more advanced stuff down the line. just argue for a it and see where it goes.

[catboi]

asking questions is fine. don't overthink something as simple as that. showing curiosity makes you look engaged in the game and like you want to hear about things. it's a good way to produce some form of activity. just go for it.

[catboi]

i realized i have been attacking other people a lot so i am putting an intentionally weak vote on you for the sake of putting some distance between us. don't sweat it too much.

[catboi]

I think we're in an okay spot relatively speaking in that people do not believe we are aligned. I don't think I get elimmed and enough people are defending you with maestro being not very persuasive that you

should

be okay but even in a worst case scenario if you get run up you can claim a power role.

[catboi]

you don't need to claim one NOW, to be clear - that's only IF you get 4 votes on you.

[catboi]

I don't think you need to right away. Be patient. wait to see if someone else will vote fennec.

[catboi]

while that's true, you have enough defenders that i don't think you get flipped day 1.

it's okay. just take it as a learning experience. What you have to be careful about as a newer player is providing good justification for your votes, and your one on fennec was a little too bandwagony, a little too reliant on leaning on what other people were saying

Making votes that look good is hard, it trip up a lot of newer players. You should try to write arguments from the mindset you'd have as town. s I was told it, a lot of your cases as town will be incorrect so you can just use the same arguments as scum

[catboi]

You need to be talking a little more than what you're doing right now. fake reads of some sort.

[catboi]

If you want help on what to say, I can try to give you advice. I think a possible strategy is to complain about how you're trying but don't know what you're doing and are being treated unfairly by people who expect too much from you.

[catboi]

If you are run up and asked to claim, you have a couple options as to what to claim:

Cop or Jailkeeper. this WILL get you counter claimed, but it will out the power role(s) in the process which is vital for us to be able to be win.

Doctor. there is a

chance

you can survive with this claim, if it's the setup with the cop. there's a little risk involved in that case just because having an active copcan be dangerous, but if you want to stay alive and learn to play more, This is the best option.

Tracker. similar to doctor, you can survive if it's the jailkeeper setup. you being alive day 2 might be a little more questionable.


In the strongest possible terms, I do not recommend you claim vanilla town here. That is a move that can work for some players, but it takes finesse to pull it off, and I don't think you're at that level yet. Nothing wrong with that, it's a very hard thing to do, and the risks involved are immense - you dying day 1 without outing a power role very strongly risks this turning into an automatic loss for our team.

You are in a bad position through mostly no fault of your own but it is still possible for you to make plays that will lead us to victory, so don't fret.

[catboi]

if you see this, the thing to do, I think, is come in and refuse to claim, act very stubborn about it, and then claim when I vote you. Can you do that?

[catboi]

actually, I don't think being stubborn and refusing to claim would be my style, considering that would get you lynched in ToS, I'll think it's better for me to claim now

this isn't town of salem and you can't play as if it is. different people have different expectations and will read behaviors in a different fashion. you have to understand your audience.

and that's correct you're not allowed to edit posts in mafia games because otherwise it'd be exploitable.

[catboi]

this should be obvious, but faustiv is trying to test you, you do not get an investigation on night 0.

[catboi]

sorry, it's a learning experience, I do think she's is the real cop so if I'm eliminated kill her tonight, also she's trying to out the power roles because she's asking if anyone can prove my claim false without outing their real role, which if they comply we can kill them tonight because they're a threat, because it's either a jailor, cop (in which case we can just kill them tomorrow and be safe from PRs) or masons (which if only one claims the other will have no use left)

i do not think kirigiri is the real cop.

[catboi]

Because if he were I do not believe he starts this elaborate chain of asking people for claims. You're jumping at shadows.

It's possible a player doesn't immediately counter you but if they do decide to hide it I expect them to pay dumb about it.

[catboi]

i

think

thyn is trying to push you without a direct counter claim and that's a much stronger indicator he's a PR here

hope i'm right because if i'm wrong i'm doomed

[catboi]

Stop posting. You've been hammered, you're dead, you're flipping mafia, saying anything further is just potentially giving more info to the town.

[catboi]

I didn't necessarily expect people to jump on you the way they did, and that's my mistake. Maybe they picked up on the same thing I did. I don't know. Sorry about this. Wish I could have done better.

[catboi]

meh, again, you're new, this is supposd to hlp you out and I feel like I didn't do enough in that regard.

I could probably have gone harder defending you but - I think that is probably a losing strategy in the long run. My thinking is I shouldn't...prioritize letting you live longer over winning the game, because that sort of paints a backwards picture of the game. It's not

always

in your best interest to keep every scumbuddy alive at all costs. although of course what I've done now is very risky as well. Hopefully I can pull it off.

[catboi]

hey catboi, keep me informed on what you thinking here okay?

yeah sure thing I'll keep a running diary

I'm not the most analytical scum player do like a lot of how I operate is simply by instinct

[catboi]

In a basic sense losing a teammate on day 1 in a 9p is never good because it means a bunch of people will be cleared as town off the flip. You can bus, as I did, but there is a further risk: in a setup with an investigative role, they can end up clearing players, or worse yet, guiltying the remaining mafia player into a loss. If this is the 2 mason setup, there's no risk. If there's a cop that's a big risk, if there's a jailkeeper that's really terrible for me because they can produce 2 clears even if i shoot them night 2. and there's a nonzero chance I'd be targeted by them.

It was for this reason that I asked you to claim to draw out who's a PR. I

think

thynhith coming out so strongly and insisting sterling had slipped was a giveaway - that was a soft counterclaim. In general even when people aren't explicitly claiming you can usually gauge by their reactions to a PR claim whether they're vanilla or not. The fact that wingfan and thyn reacted that way means they likely aren't it, neither is kkirigiri since she was trying to see if people would counter.

the biggest wild cards obviously would be maestro and fennec's slot since they weren't present. I'm gambling on it being thyn. It being anyone else is a real problem.


Hopefully I get this right. If I don't then there's not much to teach beyond "try harder not to lose a teammate on Day 1".

[catboi]

kill: thynhith

[catboi]

I was busy doing stuff for a game I'm modding yesterday and lost a step, which is not great

normally here I'd want to get ahead of the narrative somewhat and by not talking i cede the floor and faustiv has gotten suspicious in the meantime. I think I can beat back the accusations but unlike his Day 1 there's actually a hint of the truth in what he's saying here, in that he correctly read how I handled sterling's claim/thyn's counter.

[catboi]

in my view maestro and kkirigiri are players I'm never going to be able to push and the likely next two nightkills. anyone beyond that is fair game. I think getting faustiv out of the way is preferable for me but I don't want to appear too eager to push him here.

[catboi]

faustiv's explanations are logically inconsistent and i can pick at that to tear him apart. part of the game is just rhetoric - regardless of who's right or truthful what matters more is being able to present ideas in a way that will convince people. if someone's logic is bad it's very easy to defeat that and make them look bad even if they have a good read.

[catboi]

temptation is to just hammer and end the day but slight concern it'll reflect badly on me

obnoxious that I have to wait on two people probably flaking on the game though

[catboi]

I am damn near spent, energy-wise. I plan to give it my all going into Day 3 but I think things are likely to be stacked against me. There's 2 players who are likely to go against me and all the game needs is a 3rd and it's over.

wingfan is the worst type of player to deal with: utterly resistant to any logic that isn't his own. I shouldn't have responded so aggressively to him, that type of player tends to take things personally and tunnel rekentlessly. And I can't really NK him, I more or less have to mis-elim him at this point, and Wayward is townreading him. I have to push one of them tomorrow.

My view is that the only sensible nightkills are kkirigiri and maestro. kiri is townreading me but might re-evaluate after the faustiv flip. killing her at least freezes that read and lets me argue I would have killed maestro.

maestro and bbt are unknowns and i just have to hope they don't scumread me.

Kill: kkirigiri

[catboi]

basically I have to drown the thread in effort starting tomorrow, write a wallpost for every player, post it at the start of day, hope the effort gets townread.


I think wingfan is by far the easier player to case over wayward/fennecslot based on sterling's play so that is what I will do. Maestro seemed to dislike sterling's vote on fennec and likely regards it as anti-partnery. I will follow in that thinking. wingfan by contrast is a lot easier to case.

[catboi]

Easier said than done of course. Would be better if it wasn't on a weekend given I didn't want to spend Sunday night thinking about mafia. But whatever. time to summon some of that college student submitting a last minute term paper energy.

[catboi]

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I'm really frustrated and annoyed with myself for how Day 2 played out. I said I was going to re-read everyone in the game but I let faustiv's awful tunnel distract me. That's not to put any of the blame on him; while his read on me was bad and full of logical flaws I still reacted over-emotionally and let it cloud my judgment. I should have done better than that and I'm sorry for how I reacted. However, there's no use in moping over it now, there's still a game to be played. I've gone to the trouble of exhaustively re-reading every player overnight, like I should have done yesterday, and I figured out who the final scum. I've written up every player in detail in my notes and I'll present my conclusions in the following series of posts.

Basic opening post, don't want to come across too performative, hopefully I don't.

[catboi]

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I think there's basically no way [b]Maestro[/b] is scum. Calling out his partner Sterling for slipping would be egregious play as scum, tunneling Sterling persistently the rest of the day would be outright gamethrowing aand I doubt he attempts such a risky play as scum in a newbie game. If he were intending to merely distance I don't believe he'd be so persistent in his callout of sterling, making posts like this:

[quote="Maestro"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535657#p13535657]post 220[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals [vote]Fennec[/vote]

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial[/quote]
hoo boy this post, feels like ultra-sheep scum flying under the radar to anyone else? "The group is stronger than the individual but I have done no work to try to convince the group of my individual assertion that Maestro is Scum, so now I will just sheep somebody else who has been more nice to me than mean ol Maestro who is Scumreading me so I Scumread them back..."

like what

@ Faust you have to stop using the L word, I'm surprised mod hasn't warned on it yet tbh

I will post more when you all are more interesting, why the votes on Fennec? Maybe I missed something[/quote]
Here he dosen't let his scumread of Sterling rest as it is and attacks a newer post he made, continuing to give him no space whatsoever. If Maestro were intending to merely distance I'd expect him to not be that loud about his read but he continued to aggressively pursue it and push others to vote Sterling. I would expect scum in this scenario would be more quiet and allow town to get distracted by other votes. For instance, he didn't have to intervene into me getting into a fight with faustiv if scum:

[quote="Maestro"]and bc of Catboi/Faust going at it like they did this page and last, POE says Sterling so c'mooooooooooooooooon Faust you have to know why I was going down on this and it's bc of the scumslip anymore[/quote]

Even if I were to allow myself the paranoia that Maestro was making an aggressive play, I think Sterling's reaction to him is outright clearing:

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]when do you consider RVS to be over? because I'm just not as good at getting reads due to the way the game is played on amongus and Town of Salem so really I don't have a good reason to vote anyone, Also isn't it your job to help new players out? instead you just started a bandwagon on me due to a confusion, also what about my confused comments did you glanced that I had a private thread? because the player list haven't been updated when I first posted. you know, trying to start a bangwagon on a new and confused player is pretty sus to me therefore [vote]Maestro[/vote][/quote]

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13532144#p13532144]post 45[/url], Maestro"]wait, though... actually follow me on this:

"I got a role PM with a name that isn't mine"

*votes that name*

e.g. Role PM received by Sterling, which they didn't realize was also theirs, or for their slot's predecessor, made them vote their predecessor's slot

Sterling got a scum role PM

[vote]Sterling[/vote][/quote]

here you accuse me of having a scum role PM, which if true would means I have a private thread, however thinking back was still in the RVS, so you'd be fogiven for, however since I don't have anyone better to vote I'm sticking with my vote[/quote]

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]well my thought process is I'm used to playing in powerrole heavy games, where we get most of our info from claims, counter claims, and investigation reports, because in ToS there can only be one Jailor, so if two player claims jailor we know at least one of them is lying, also in Town of Salem we're told what role killed the player, eg. SK Mafia Vig Vet Jest ect. so really I'm used to the game mechanics to give use our information.

the reason I've latched onto Maestro is because I felt as if he's found an easy scapegoat in the new player and that's really the only read I got from this game[/quote]

The immediate OMGUS and attacking maestro back for pushing him just isn't from a partner, ever. This is newb-scum getting frustrated at being caught. The only possible cause for concern I have with Maestro is that he seems to have fallen off a little bit after Day 1, but the explanation about being busy makes sense and I would [i]only[/i] get paranoid if he continues to be not very active. I think Maestro being scum is a very unlikely scenario that's not worth considering.

[catboi]

that was the easy one now have to try to keep my brain from shutting off

maybe I switch to one of the lower posters and not kiri

[catboi]

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[b]Fennec[/b]'s content in the game is limited, and I could certainly take issue with it as I did on Day 1. The performative cursing, the vague, hedgy reads, the fact he was unable to keep up with the game are all +scum behaviors in my eyes. His defense of Sterling as "town dumbass" makes my eyetwitch:

[quote="Fennec"][b]I only recognise Catboi, but as I haven't been on this site for long at all and half the players here are also new, that was kinda only expected to know 1-2 people. 

Reads and bullshit like that
Everyone else not listed: Has done the equivalent of fuck all content, so reads = Basically impossible for them[/b]

[b][color=#FFFF40]Sterling - Possibly Town - [/color] Doesn't give off scum vibes at all, just gives off [color=#004000]Town Dumbass[/color] vibes. Still too early to call him specifically [color=#004000]Town[/color] yet. (Your not a dumbass, but compared to everyone else, you'd be specifically the most clueless)[/b]

[b][color=#FFFF40]Kiri - Possibly Town -[/color] Currently seems like a reasonable person. In general, voting my predecessor wasn't a shit move I'll give you that, but they didn't really send much besides that so still not giving me fully [color=#004000]Town[/color] vibes. For now, I consider you as well, You can see the thing next to your name.[/b]

[b]Maestro - [color=#666]Can't read you currently,[/color] but kinda confused on the whole, [color=#800000]Scum[/color] pm thing. Faustiv, I don't agree nor disagree with your idea with this guy being [color=#004000]Town,[/color] but would be nice to have a slightly bigger explanation of the [color=#004000]Supposed Townness[/color] of that thing.

Catboi/Thynhith - I want to see more between these two. to me, this could be [color=#004000]TvT[/color] but to me, it seems more likely that this is a [color=#004000]T[/color][color=#666]v[/color][color=#BF0000]M[/color], but there needs to be more interaction to gauge this. [/b]

[b][color=#FFBF40]Oh and yes, I'm gonna continue to color shit as much as possible because why the fuck not[/color][/b][/quote]
However, the fact that sterling was the ONLY person Fennec committed to a townread of strikes me as far more bold than newbie scum typically are. That on its own gives me a slight pause.

What gives me more pause is sterling's vote on Fennec:
[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals [vote]Fennec[/vote]

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial[/quote]
The rationale is weak and sheepy, following along with mine and kiri's logic. If I had to guess, I would say this is NOT a bus vote, and merely an opportunistic one on a competing wagon that Sterling saw as an easy target. I think the dynamic makes less sense if fennec were trying to defend sterling and sterling was bussing - more typically you see  scum either both defend or both attack one another.

I don't have as much to comment on about [b]Wayward Son[/b], the issue is that it's much harder to get a read one someone when they're replacing in with only one scum left. I got slightly worried his posts were going with the flow and not adding much to the conversation but that was kind of how the whole day went yesterday.

I'd like Wayward to elaborate a little more on his reads but right now my leaning is that the vote from Sterling is not a vote on a partner.

[catboi]

This kind of stinks but I'm kind of not able to fake as much as I'd really like to with the low amount of content in this game.

[catboi]

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ceejay is a troubling one because there are worlds where I [i]could[/i] see his progression on Sterling as being on a partner: putting him as town initially and quietly moving him to a scumread without making too much noise about it.

However, looking again through his IS I think these post are critical:

[quote="ceejayvinoya"]Fennec isn't voting anybody? That's a bit unusual. It's starting to get late.

I sort of want to vote fennec but sterling is on the same wagon and I don't know how to feel about that...

[v]Sterling[/v]

Looking back on it now I feel like doing anything involving faustiv today is probably not a good idea.[/quote]
[quote="ceejayvinoya"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537838#p13537838]post 336[/url], Thynhith"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537754#p13537754]post 333[/url], kkirigiri"]Asking for votes on anyone who isn't Fennec/Sterling/ceejay seems like you're just committing for the votes to be split.

@catboi is it common in newbie games for town to fail to eliminate anyone in the first round? Just getting wary that we might be going down this road as it stands, we've not got anyone to E-1 so far, and only Fennec has faced E-2, and only for a few hours.[/quote]
I've never seen it happen, and in theory we should do everything we can to avoid it. Usually any elim is better than none. Ceejay and Sterling are still my preferred elims for the day. I'll be interested if Fennec returns from inactivity just to hammer someone.[/quote]

Well no one seems to be in hammer range for now. Truce and let's vote Sterling? :P[/quote]
The vote here is a critical one, because ceejay avoids voting Fennec and puts Sterling at E-2, while trying to get more votes on Sterling, leading to sterling's fakeclaim. I think if they were scum together ceejay would be much more likely to try to push fennec as the counterwagon.

I don't think him doubting the claim is necessarily alignment indicative, if I squinted really hard I [i]could[/i] see this as an instance of TMI/him being aware he claim would get countered and wanting to look good when it did.
[quote="ceejayvinoya"]I don't really like this claim btw. If he really is a PR I think he would have been more proactive to protect his role and I don't really feel like laying low is town cop behavior even if he's new.[/quote]

However, I think his responses to being questioned by kkirigiri and me on his sterling read actually erad as incredibly genuine:
[quote="ceejayvinoya"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537966#p13537966]post 346[/url], kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537828#p13537828]post 334[/url], ceejayvinoya"]Fennec isn't voting anybody? That's a bit unusual. It's starting to get late.

I sort of want to vote fennec but sterling is on the same wagon and [color=#ffaa00]I don't know how to feel about that[/color]...

[v]Sterling[/v]

Looking back on it now I feel like doing anything involving faustiv today is probably not a good idea.[/quote]

You say you don't know how to feel about it, yet you vote Sterling anyway, which suggests that you kinda do?

How sure are you that Sterling is scum, personally? I'm not trying to undermine you just for the sake of it, I still want to vote Sterling myself, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you had come to that conclusion independently and were more sure of yourself.[/quote]

This will sound bad to you but I probably didn't scumread him as strongly as you do.

The way I play is mostly to collect townreads and help elim the rest, though sometimes if I'm reasonably sure someone could be mafia I try to push that.[/quote]

[quote="ceejayvinoya"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13538157#p13538157]post 360[/url], catboi"]ceejay's progression on sterling actually makes no sense, looking at it

[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13532493#p13532493]post 85[/url], ceejayvinoya"]It's weird but I'm not really seeing anything yet that catches my attention, except for faustiv who I have no idea how to sort. 

catboi feels like town.
maestro feels like town but I wouldn't mind seeing more.

Kyouko hasn't really done anything yet except sit on her early read. Might check again later.
Sterling? idk could be town.

Rose and Thynhith disappeared.

Rockhopper didn't show.

I'd rather push Thynhith for now.

[v]Thynhith[/v] what do you think of the game so far?[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13536741#p13536741]post 287[/url], ceejayvinoya"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535646#p13535646]post 218[/url], faüstiv"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535405#p13535405]post 204[/url], ceejayvinoya"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535390#p13535390]post 203[/url], catboi"]oh, and on ceejay too - i literally forgot he was in the game when i was writing that post[/quote]

I usually like this because there is less pressure on me but this almost feels weird.

I wasn't included in any reads lists so far and I haven't interacted with anybody either since Thynhith.

No complaints though.[/quote]
out readlist[/quote]

[b]Probably town. idk I'm not good at mafia:[/b] kkirigiri, catboi

[b]in that weird state between "probably town" and "I don't want to elim these today":[/b] maestro

[b]I don't want to elim these today:[/b] wingfan, Thynhith, fennec?

[b]Everybody else:[/b] faustiv, sterlingsteampunk[/quote]
[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537828#p13537828]post 334[/url], ceejayvinoya"]Fennec isn't voting anybody? That's a bit unusual. It's starting to get late.

I sort of want to vote fennec but sterling is on the same wagon and I don't know how to feel about that...

[v]Sterling[/v]

Looking back on it now I feel like doing anything involving faustiv today is probably not a good idea.[/quote]

Like, I could maybe get the "idk could be town" on sterling early on degrading as time went on and other people have been doing more than him, but still go there and put a vote on him with no real explanation doesn't sit right with me.[/quote]

One of my problems with him which made me hesitate to slot him as possibly towny was that his early posts feel like newb town to me but as the game progressed he got stuck in that state and I don't really see any motivation for him to participate or play or whatever.

It feels like something newbie mafia could do, lose motivation to play the game earnestly because they already know who's mafia.[/quote]

Something like "this will sound badto you" feels genuine because scum are usually less willing to admit they know their reasoning sounds bad - they can make up any reason so they usually [i]try[/i] not to sound bad. The explanation for his progression on his read and the decay of it also feels believable, I don't think it's impossible for scum to fake but he stands by his early read rather than shying away from it and feeling a need to distance himself from it which suggests not feeling guilty about it. Generally speaking when scum bus they try to take credit for it but ceejay's vote was so low-key that Im disinclined to believe it was a bus.

[quote="ceejayvinoya"]Now look here. If I'm mafia, the least I could have done yesterday is wait for a cc or something, and THEN hammer Sterling.

I would have at least wanted some info in exchange for a doomed partner or something.

Sure this certainly doesn't auto clear me, that's fine, but I just want to say I'm no dumbass and would certainly try to play optimally whenever I can.[/quote]I also think the fact that ceejay opened Day 2 saying he would have waited for a counter claim reads genuine - I think if as scum he was legitimately aware thyn had CC'd he wouldn't think to play ignorant about it, and the "I'm no dumbass" line carries a bit of personal pride to it that I think is less likely to come from scum in that situation but scum don't usually tend to brag about how they would have played better as scum.

I guess the other concerning thing is that sterling literally never so much as acknowledges ceejay's existence. Scum can do weird things sometimes though, that's a ircumstantial point at best.

I wish I could say I'm super confident on this, I'm not, but I think ceejay's slot is more likely to be town than not. I might metadive him later to shore up the read when I have time but that could take a day or two.

[catboi]

3/5? ehh, decent enough. scumcase wingfan, towncase kiri, roll into the day with it

[catboi]

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I actually think [b]thewingfan[/b] is really obviously scum here and it became apparent the moment I actually took the time to reread the game. Other people were townreading him for stubbornness, and I think ultimately tha's a mistake, because I think these are personality traits, rather than alignment tells. Reading players that way is a mistake. I've been fooled in other games by writing off pro-scum behavior and bad arguments as being tunneled town. It's not a good way to play the game because you're just relying on attitude and I think that style of play is not that hard to fake.

If you bother to look instead at what wingfan has [i]actually done[/i] this game, his play is extremely scummy and there's basically no justification for it.

[quote="thewingfan"]So I'm new to this site and all.  But play ALL the time elsewhere on forums.  This thing bugs me a bit.  

"Think less when posting, nobody will get mad if you're slightly unclear, just answer questions and show genuine interest, but I will get annoyed by Day 2 if I can't get read on you just fyi"

Where I normally play, we have players who I can't read by D5 or D6.  But then again a day lasts like 8 hours normally there.  D2 seems a bit impatient to me?[/quote]

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535442#p13535442]post 206[/url], Thynhith"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535362#p13535362]post 197[/url], thewingfan"]So I'm new to this site and all.  But play ALL the time elsewhere on forums.  This thing bugs me a bit.  

"Think less when posting, nobody will get mad if you're slightly unclear, just answer questions and show genuine interest, but I will get annoyed by Day 2 if I can't get read on you just fyi"

Where I normally play, we have players who I can't read by D5 or D6.  But then again a day lasts like 8 hours normally there.  D2 seems a bit impatient to me?[/quote]
Just fyi, D1 is 10 days and every game-day hence is 7 real days. So games can drag on for a looong time (but tend to speed up when we have more info). By the time D2 starts I have a good read on maybe half the players.
Anyway, welcome to the game! Looking forward to hearing fresh thoughts[/quote]

Thanks, but i don't know how much help I'm gonna be.  Other than wrapping my head around a single day here, being as long as an entire game where I normally play at.  I largely play with the same core group of folks over and over so kind of know how everyone plays so that's a challenge too.  Add in trying to learn a whole new set of terminology.  and my long time stance that D1 is for excrements and giggles.

Gonna be a STEEP learning curve.[/quote]
wingfan opens the game by talking about playstyle things and pre-emptively making excuses for his play. I actually think this is really scummy, because it serves to enter the game by lowering xpectatins for his own play. I think this is more likely to come from scum because scum tend to be self-conscious about their inability to contribute to the game in a way townies aren't. By opening and painting imself as useless he has a built-in excuse for not contributing later on.

The reason I find this so unnatural is that somehow, talking about himself was the FIRST thing that came to mind for the wingfan - not trying to commont on any of the cases being made or make any reads. It doesn't ead like a natural thought process at all - think about it, when you replace into a game, what's the first thing you do? Try to catch up and comment on everything. That winfan chose to argue about stuff pertaining to his own playstyle betrays a lack of interest in solving the game.

Finally, when we do get content from him, it's this:
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535590#p13535590]post 208[/url], faüstiv"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535515#p13535515]post 207[/url], thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535442#p13535442]post 206[/url], Thynhith"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535362#p13535362]post 197[/url], thewingfan"]So I'm new to this site and all.  But play ALL the time elsewhere on forums.  This thing bugs me a bit.  

"Think less when posting, nobody will get mad if you're slightly unclear, just answer questions and show genuine interest, but I will get annoyed by Day 2 if I can't get read on you just fyi"

Where I normally play, we have players who I can't read by D5 or D6.  But then again a day lasts like 8 hours normally there.  D2 seems a bit impatient to me?[/quote]
Just fyi, D1 is 10 days and every game-day hence is 7 real days. So games can drag on for a looong time (but tend to speed up when we have more info). By the time D2 starts I have a good read on maybe half the players.
Anyway, welcome to the game! Looking forward to hearing fresh thoughts[/quote]

Thanks, but i don't know how much help I'm gonna be.  Other than wrapping my head around a single day here, being as long as an entire game where I normally play at.  I largely play with the same core group of folks over and over so kind of know how everyone plays so that's a challenge too.  Add in trying to learn a whole new set of terminology.  and my long time stance that D1 is for excrements and giggles.

Gonna be a STEEP learning curve.[/quote]
do you have any initial reads?[/quote]

Apologies if this is a double post.... but I wanted to make sure this got answered and even though I hit submit and was told it did get posted.....I don't see it.

[vote]Maestro[/vote]

I don't like how quick he was to jump on Sterling for what looked to me to be newbie confusion.  I could very well be projecting my own confusion on to Sterling but this forum system doesn't make any sense-yet[/quote]
A fairly straightforward chainsaw defense of Sterling, attacking Maestro for pushing him. This is the kind of mistake I think inexperienced scum are more likely to make, attaching themselves to their partner too strongly and over-reacting to suspicion on them.

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535821#p13535821]post 246[/url], kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535795#p13535795]post 243[/url], thewingfan"]

[vote]Maestro[/vote]

I don't like how quick he was to jump on Sterling for what looked to me to be newbie confusion.  I could very well be projecting my own confusion on to Sterling but this forum system doesn't make any sense-yet[/quote]

I think Sterling's continuation from when he was first voted by Maestro is more telling than Maestro's scumslip theory.[/quote]

I haven't cleared ANYONE as 100% town.  At home site it takes me 3 game days (72 hours) for me to get an idea on who's bad and who's town.  Also remember this is with a core group of folks I know relatively well so.....might take me longer.

What I did read Sterling as was a confused newbie to this site that asked an unfortunate question in the forum instead of PMing the Mod.

[b]He could well be bad, but its not something I would think to hang him over.[/b]

Right now I'm just trying to poke a hornets nest to see what comes out.  Which is is my preferred tool when I have no idea what the heck to do.  

As for others outside of wanting to hang people for making me figure out mathematical equations I've got nada.[/quote]
Bolded line is a dead giveaway - he openly hedges on his read of sterling after getting called on it, going "well, he [i]could[/i] be scum". This is a typical newb-scum blunder - he's attacking Maestro but won't commit to fully calling Sterling town because wingfan aware of Sterling's alignment and doesn't want to call him town. So wingfan gives an awkward half-defense but tries to leave himself an out with the possibility Sterling could be scum. He calls sterling "an unfortunate newbie" but never actually explains why that makes him more likely to be town than scum.

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535841#p13535841]post 251[/url], Maestro"]Yeah the time to vote me for "jumping on newbie confusion" as some kind of punishment is long past[/quote]

If you're talking about my vote.  Keep in mind please that I JUST GOT HERE.  I don't mean it to be a punishment.  It was the one thing from my skimming of eight pages of discussion that stuck out.  No one has to agree, and I am likely to move as we go along.[/quote]
Immediately starts making excuses for his vote. This is ++scum because he doesn't want to be held accountable for his own vote, he made a fairly serious vote but his immediate fallback is "I just got here". Als, desopite the game only being eight pages, he claims to have "skimmed" it, which is showing a lack of actually attempting to read the game seriously.

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537022#p13537022]post 312[/url], kkirigiri"]I like those analyses by faust, at the very least I feel like I can firm up my estimation of him as town.

@Thynith, ceejay, what are your reactions? Do you feel as if he's arguing in bad faith, or do you think he's town who is simply wrong about you?[/quote]


I know this wasn't directed to me but I found my self nodding along to faust's reasoning  also.


[vote]ceejay[/vote][/quote]
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537282#p13537282]post 323[/url], kkirigiri"]I find it intriguing that you go for ceejay specifically though, especially when you're basically announcing that you sheep his reads, and then not vote the person that faust is actually voting.[/quote]

This was more to create a 3 way tie.  I know its a bit early given we have what 4ish days left but I was interested to see how things shook out.[/quote]
Then he makes a bad vote on ceejay, with his only reasoning being "to create a 3 way tie", with no actual rationale as to how this is supposed to be useful or what it's going to achieve. If you look at the vote count prior to that vote, it looked like this:
[spoiler=][quote="Dannflor"][area=VC 1.4][align=center][img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/71/Mini_scule_02.jpg/220px-Mini_scule_02.jpg[/img][/align]
[align=center][url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini_scule]Mini scule[/url][/align]
[align=center][size=75][i]Mini scule is a species of microhylid frog endemic to Madagascar that was described in 2019. The scientific name of the species refers to its size, being a pun on the word miniscule. It is very small, measuring only 8.4 to 10.8 mm (0.33 to 0.43 in) in snout–vent length. It has bronze underparts with a brown groin and back of the thigh, cream upperparts with brown flecking, a dark brown side of the head, and a red iris. It is known only from the Sainte Luce Reserve, where it inhabits areas with deep leaf litter near semi-permanent water bodies. Specimens of frogs from Mandena, the Vohimena mountains, the southern Anosy Mountains, and Tsitongambarika may also be of this species. Like other species in the genus Mini, it received media attention when first described due to the wordplay in its scientific name.[/i][/size][/align]
[mech=votes][color=#DDA0DD][b][2] Fennec [/b]:[/color] Thynhith, Sterling the steampunk
[color=#DDA0DD][b][2] Sterling the steampunk [/b]:[/color] Maestro, kkirigiri
[color=#DDA0DD][b][1] faüstiv [/b]:[/color] ceejayvinoya
[color=#DDA0DD][b][1] Thynhith [/b]:[/color] faüstiv
[color=#DDA0DD][b][1] Maestro [/b]:[/color] thewingfan
[color=#DDA0DD][b][1] ceejayvinoya [/b]:[/color] catboi

[color=#DDA0DD][b][1] Not Voting [/b]:[/color] Fennec

[i]With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate[/i]

[b]The Day 1 deadline is in[/b]: [countdown]2022-10-31 21:18:19 -4.00[/countdown][/mech]
[color=#DDA0DD][b]Mod Notes[/b]:  Please be more mindful of this rule: "For many years, the word “lynch” was used to describe the person who was voted out by town in a mafia game. We no longer allow this word to be used."
[/color][/area][/quote][/spoiler]

What this looks like to me is wingfan attempting to create a viable counterwagon to Sterling but having nothign to back it up with. He could have voted anyone, however:

- people had just called out Sterling's vote on Fennec as being bad, and that wagon was unlikely to be successful because of that. faustiv was hard defending sterling, so wingfan wouldn't have pushed him. The maestro vote was clearly a flop. Despite claiming to like faustiv's analysis, he instead votes ceejay with me, andnot Thyn with faustiv. If he's aiming for a tie, why does he not vote with the person he likes? Best as I can figure, several other players had expressed suspicion of ceejay, while few were scumreading Thyn and the reception to faustiv's case on thyn had people not buyin it. If there was any chance to a viable counterwagon to sterling, ceejay was it. 

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13537864#p13537864]post 342[/url], ceejayvinoya"]Also this @wingfan. It really is curious that I got voted in place of Thynhith without mention as to why. Do I look worse than Thynhith? Is Thynhith townier than I am? Are you convinced were both mafia?[/quote]


I just answered this in my post to kk.  I found myself nodding with faust a lot, and after looking at the counts I wanted to see who moved where in a 3 way tie scenario.[/quote]Again, the "create a tie" excuse feels super hollow given wingfan NEVER actually revisits these votes and tries to analyze them at all.

Then when sterling makes his claim, wingfan very blatantly tries to deflect again:
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13539212#p13539212]post 440[/url], catboi"]I do want to hear from the people who haven't posted since the claim but I decided based on what thyn is saying I'm okay with taking the risky path and voting sterling today.[/quote]

Sorry for my absence yesterday.  Unexpected dryer drama-as in it broke and we spent the day finding a new one and getting it installed....

And today I need to dispose of about a gazillion leaves-color me excited....

At any rate.  I'm caught up tp this point.

Couple thoughts as I get caught up.

1. I have the philosophy that we shouldn't hang the scouts. Granted I'm used to games with more people and more roles and stuff.   I did see people asking Sterling who he scouted.  Question-Since we are still in D1, Has he had an opportunity to scout?

2. kk's fakeclaim.  They didn't and said they thought about it to try to see who jumped.  They didn't do it.  Last game at home site, someone actually did this and we didn't believe anyone would be brazen enough to do this, but they did and it worked.  Had kk done this and we hanged Sterling, and Sterling were revealed to be the cop after all we'd have had a MASSIVE distraction on D2 if not a runaway train.  I feel better that kk said that they just considered doing it, and didn't, but I've ticked a question mark there.[/quote]

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13539271#p13539271]post 456[/url], faüstiv"][vote]Thrynhith[/vote]

sheep me. this is scum.[/quote]

Personal rule when someone you think is town stands on a table....follow.

[vote]Thryn[/vote][/quote]
Again this feels typical newbscum, trying to buy another day for their partner. While I don't necessarily think believing the claim is damning in and of itself, the attempting at discrediting kiri doesn't sit right with me at all because it's not actually attempting to read into her motivation, and is taking a mild statement of [i]considering[/i] countering but not actually doing it and making it out to be more than it is, which is fairly ridiculous. We then get the [i]third[/i] attempt from wingfan to protect sterling by voting on a counterwagon to him. Notably, there is basically no reason whatsoever that wingfan has ever given for his townread on faustiv - simply that "I like his analysis". This is another typical newbie-scm mistake. I think wingfan was simply seeing that faustiv's posts were long and that he was defending sterling and decided to buddy up to him. Noermally when a newbie gives some agreement to a player and townreads them they can explain [i]what[/i] they like, but there's none of that here. The townread on faustiv isn't a real thought from wingan, there's no depth to it whatsoever.

This is followed up with the bitterness over a potential massclaim. I had written this off as being townie but I realize now this is more likely than anything a playstyle trait, and while I had thought his "I don't care if you hang me for it" attitude was towny, I now realize it can just as easily come from scum who is bitter at possibly losing to a method they see as 'unfair'.

I also thnk again wingfan's buddying up to faustiv is fairly blatant TMI in hindsight, he's unable to give a single coherent reason for faustiv being town:

[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13542300#p13542300]post 526[/url], Wayward Son"]The fact that Thynhith was the NK also adds another[/quote]


Have you considered the possibility that he's not the baddie and whomever is killed Thryn as a framejob?

I mean he screamed up and down late D1 that Thryn was bad.  Steampunk got hanged.  If he's bad why the bleepity bleep would he go off and kill the player he wanted to hang?

Either he didn't kill Thryn or he'd have to have schemed out being able to point to that argument, which he hasn't.[/quote]
 his "framejob" defense is self-contradictory and nonsensical. His defense of faustiv yesterday was very clearly setting up to push me today using faustiv's own scumcase against me propping it up. wingfan has been unable to provide even a single shred of original thought or reasoning this game. This is what he gives about his possible scumreads yesterday:
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13544424#p13544424]post 608[/url], kkirigiri"]Both wingfan and Wayward look like votebait and I hope I get answers to them before the phase is hammered.[/quote]

Votebait?

I still don't think faust is bad.

catboi suggests that my suggestion that faust could have been framed by another baddie with a kill of Thryn doesn't make sense.  As immature or childish as my play might be  if I were the baddie its exactly what I would have done.


Chaos bringer remember?

Bad TWF kills of Thryn and hopes for a chaotic dayand hopes faust gets hanged and then kills off a target hoping to frame someone else and so on.

My leans for the baddie are catboi and ceejay.[/quote]
No elaboraion, no reasoning at all. And conveniently, ceejay and I were the two players others had been suggesting as possible scum on that day. wingfan is only latching on to popular reads and not adding any meaningful analysis of his own. By his own words, this is how he described his own playstyle a few posts earlier:
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13543334#p13543334]post 549[/url], catboi"]Basically, we're not going to win this game through role claims, and I actually find the frustration that the suggestion we claim to be suspicious? It has a hint of scum salt at what he perceives as an unfair strategy.[/quote]

Hang me for it then.  Didn't care when I got hanged for it before.  Don't now.  It was an honest question about game philosophy on this site.  If I can expect every game I enter to jump to role claims I have no interest in playing here.

I'm used to games that are much less formularic. [b] I prefer to get into the nuts and bolts of a game, figure out who's who through pressure and detective work.[/b]  Mass claims in my opinion always favor the town.  Don't have to be town to consider winning unfairly to be not cool. If you don't mind games like that that's cool and all.

Also-I like chaos.  Have a reputation for being chaotic, and mass role claims take chaos out of it.

tl;dr.  I care less about winning than I do having fun and the game being fair.[/quote]
Does it feel like wingfan has been playing the game through "pressure and detective work"? I don't think so. The most he's been able to give are lazy, half-assed reads that are sheeping others. He didn't try to pressure me, he simply complained about the site meta here and got defensive over it. He didn't try to pressure ceejay at all. He did nothing in the way of "detective work" or pressure on Day 1. I think the way wingfan describes his playstyle is [i]probably[/i] true of his town game - but he's exhibited absolutely none of that here. wingfan is fairly blatantly not attempting to solve the game. He is obvious scum.

[catboi]

my fucking arm hurts

[catboi]

oh right, I forgot the interactions.

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In addition to all that, I think sterling's interactions withwingfan are incredibly awkward and don't really make sense as scum/town dialogue:

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]welcome thewingfan, now before we start, are you mafia?[/quote]
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535296#p13535296]post 195[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]welcome thewingfan, now before we start, are you mafia?[/quote]

Thanks I've already posted some.  No I'm not a baddie, and I'm not all to interesting either.  But then I don't think anyone would freely admit to being a baddie would they?[/quote]
[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]thewingfan, I like you already[/quote]
[quote="thewingfan"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535641#p13535641]post 216[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]thewingfan, I like you already[/quote]


Give it time.  Not that I'm unlikeable but I come from the school of Spenser.  

And Spenser's Crimebusters Tipbook since when you don't know anything annoy someone.[/quote]
This feels...robotic. It doesn't make sense as scum buddying up to a townie, because wingfan hadn't actually posted anything of substance. and wingfan feels like he doesn't know what to do with it, the comment about annoying someone feels like awkwardly trying to push sterling away a bit by acting tough in response. The thing about these interactions s: I don't get the sense wingfan is trying to solve stering at all. There's no curiosity to what he's doing, he's not questioning sterling or trying to figure anything out about him. There's no concern even at being asked such a useless question It really feels like wingfan already knows sterling's alignment and doesn't see a need to really talk to him at all.

Then, notably, after he's hammered, sterling posts this:

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]it looks a bit sus that faust and wing fan are trying to start a bandwagon together, like more sus than anything I've seen so far, [vote]thewingfan[/vote][/quote]
[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]oh I've already been hammered, GG[/quote]

This "I've already been hammered" comment reads INCREDIBLY fake. People had discussed that there was a hammer on that page. Sterling attempting to come in and attack one of the people voting him also makes absolute NO sense as scum trying to save himself. I think it's significantly more likely that sterling came in and pretended to not know he was hammered to do some last-minute distancing by fosing his partner. That kind of move is incredibly typical of newbscum, they think that by attacking their partner when they're near dying it will make their partner look better.

[catboi]

fuuuck i'm so tired.

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In the absolute most general sense, I think [b]kkirigiri[/b] has been working harder to solve the game than anyone else. The analysis in posts like #135, #153, and #180 is in-depth and looking very closely at people's wording and possible motivations behind it, and although I don't necessarily like pre-flip associatives, posts where someone muses on the possibility of two players being a scum pairing are far more likely to come from town than scum. In general I would just be incredibly impressed at the effort level here coming from a newbie scum player.

I also think kiri went out of her way to continue questioning everyone and pursue leads on Day 2, at a time when doing so was incredibly unnecessary to do so as scum given the momentum of the day. 

[quote="kkirigiri"]I just have something for Wayward Son, why he seems to be of the opinion now that it's going to be ceejay if not faust, when at the start of the day he justified voting with me by saying that everyone on the Sterling bandwagon was probably town?

I'd like to know what you see as potentially suspicious with him, Wayward.[/quote]
[quote="kkirigiri"]Also @ceejay, what are your current thoughts? I think you should have your own conclusions on who you think is most scummy besides faust.

Don't worry about potentially sounding dumb, just be honest - if we somehow do get put into a Day 3 I'd rather us be best equipped as possible to deal with it.[/quote]
The way she asked these questions to wayward and ceejay feels like someone who is legitimately invested in the answers, not idle busywork - they're pointed and trying to examine other suspects and plan for contingencies, she's not simply lining up mis-elims but trying to figure out their thinking

I think kiri's progression on her read of sterling looks incredibly natural to me and most likely does not come from a partner.

[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13531954#p13531954]post 22[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]I'm confused, I was given a role PM but I don't see my name, anyways if I'm am in the game [vote]hjbzc[/vote][/quote]

Finally, my pinkie is telling me that this line likely comes from a town POV.[/quote]
[quote="kkirigiri"]Eh, my thought process with Sterling was more that he wouldn't be confused as to whether or not this was his game if he had a separate mafia thread. I think if he was mafia and he'd seen it, he'd understand what was going on.
Otherwise, working backwards, if he was scum and faking the reaction, he'd have to make a non-trivial leap of logic that he should be confused as a town-sided player and post as if he were to make people think he townslipped.[/quote]
[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13532144#p13532144]post 45[/url], Maestro"]wait, though... actually follow me on this:

"I got a role PM with a name that isn't mine"

*votes that name*

e.g. Role PM received by Sterling, which they didn't realize was also theirs, or for their slot's predecessor, made them vote their predecessor's slot

Sterling got a scum role PM

[vote]Sterling[/vote][/quote]

I think I get what you mean though, but it would imply that Sterling assumed he had been given information that would have compromised the game, and then be acting on it to try to win (if I understood what you said correctly).
Surely no-one would be so dishonest![/quote]
Starts off wirh the initial townread, although incorrect, I think the logical thought process is sound and entirely believable and the confidence he [i]didn't[/i] slip is unlikely to come from a partner, who has to concern themselves with the possibility he really [i]might[/i] have slipped.

[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13532325#p13532325]post 78[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]when do you consider RVS to be over? because I'm just not as good at getting reads due to the way the game is played on amongus and Town of Salem so really I don't have a good reason to vote anyone, Also isn't it your job to help new players out? instead you just started a bandwagon on me due to a confusion, also what about my confused comments did you [color=#ffaa00]glanced that I had a private thread[/color]? because the player list haven't been updated when I first posted. you know, trying to start a bangwagon on a new and confused player is pretty sus to me therefore [vote]Maestro[/vote][/quote]

I don't think Maestro said anything about a private thread to you.[/quote]
The comment here is turning up the heat on sterling but in a very subtle way, it's opening the possibility that sterling incriminates himself further and I think a partner avoids that. Adding further pressure at this point was unnecessary.

[quote="kkirigiri"]you know, I could see a Fennec+Sterling scumteam being quite plausible.

Fennec's insistence on Sterling being 'the town dumbass' seems like it'd be the go-to justification to try to absolve them as their maf partner, and I think with mine and Thyn's suspicion also falling on Fennec's slot, they'd try to protect their partner rather than throw them under the bus to gain towncred at this point. They also clearly had to say something about them in their list of reads, since Sterling's posts have stood out, for better or worse.

I'm also not keen on Fennec's justification for their reads, and him placing me as town could be an attempt to try to win me over and flip my vote, though to me this is a secondary reason for me keeping my vote on him for the time being. Ceejay's reads list also seemed a bit thin and watery.[/quote]Moves toward building a possible scumteam theory between sterling/fennec. Following this, she continues to aggressively pressure sterling:

[quote="kkirigiri"]My issue was though that you accused Maestro of bringing up that you had a private thread, when he I don't think mentioned such a thing. In fact, other than you, only I talked about the possibility of you having a private thread, and it was in the context of you [i]not[/i] having one - and that notwithstanding, that wasn't the post that you were responding to anyway.

And even if you hadn't said that, it seems like such an overly-specific denial that it should naturally ring alarm-bells to anyone following the game.[/quote]
[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13533832#p13533832]post 160[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]@kkkgiri well I don't see how getting the wrong role PM could indicate a scumslip unless it somehow accidentally revealed I had a Mafia chat. Also it's not uncommon to remember things that never happened.[/quote]

again, that's not my issue with you. Argue that with Maestro if you want to convince him that's not a scumslip; you seem to be remembering quite a few things that didn't happen.

Thing is, as soon as I bring up the possibility that you might be scum with Fennec, you immediately act as if you only just noticed them, and then ask them if they're scum, all innocent like. It's like when you're staring at your high-school crush, and suddenly their eyes meet yours so you immediately look away and pretend your attention wasn't fixed on them. It's rather comical in a way.

I'll address faust's reads in a bit, but suffice to say I disagree with him and will explain why.[/quote]
I think IF she waere going for the "vote a townie, fos a buddy" manuever typical of inexperienced scum she doesn't focus so much on continuing to pressure sterling in this way and make him look bad because it increases the chances his wagon grows while fennec's get ignored.

[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535657#p13535657]post 220[/url], Sterling the steampunk"]seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals [vote]Fennec[/vote]

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial[/quote]

consider my right eyebrow fully raised

[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13535771#p13535771]post 232[/url], Maestro"]
...

I will post more when you all are more interesting, why the votes on Fennec? Maybe I missed something[/quote]

if you follow my posts then you'll see my explanation for keeping my vote on him up until now - Sterling's vote does make me a little more doubtful of my read... perhaps that's the intention?
I thought I had been quite explicit in my suspicion of Sterling as Fennec's most likely maf partner, so I'd be baffled if he thinks I'm being especially 'nice' to him.[/quote]
[quote="kkirigiri"][quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13536748#p13536748]post 288[/url], faüstiv"]
Thewingfan is town. I'm not explaining why just yet, but he is town.
[/quote]

I hadn't yet got concrete feeling of where you were at, but that sounds eerily like a feeling I've been having but not sure how I'd articulate that I feel like it must come from a town perspective.

Your spat with catboi had been concerning me though, I was beginning wonder why you seemed intent at undermining my reads and wondered if it were deliberate, I was going to ask you how you thought catboi [i]should[/i] have reacted to your pushing, since I thought it was true that your reasoning relating to his first vote was pretty thin. He could quite legitimately resist your FOS I think as either alignment - maybe the breadth and timing of his posts leans townish, but either way, nothing as concrete as my initial townread on him which I've kept throughout.

...

Still don't think your reasoning re: Sterling is good enough. Again, even if his partner might have wanted to coach him, it's no guarantee that he'd had have heeded their advice, for what could be any number of reasons. From your perspective, if you think that him being new to forum mafia is important, then by your logic, this perhaps makes him more likely to misinterpret or disregard what his partner would have to say. You're expecting him to act rationally in one aspect of the game whilst giving him the benefit of the doubt for irrational behaviour that you're seeing in the thread.

My theory has been and remains:

-> Maestro accuses Sterling of scumslipping.
-> Sterling accidentally mentions having a private thread in his response.
-> Sterling then realises that Maestro didn't mention such a thing in his accusation, realises he doesn't have a decent explanation for doing so, tries to change the subject.
-> Fennec switches into the game in a pretty poor situation [if we assume he is mafia with Sterling], makes a couple of heated posts to try to take attention away from Sterling and on to players who had been lurking.
-> Sterling tries a few tactics to try to distance himself from Fennec, ending in him voting Fennec not long after I'd posited a possible scumteam between the two, and faust had declared that Fennec would be Sterling's only possible partner in his defence of Sterling.

Another damning thing here is that earlier ([url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=13533048#p13533048]#114[/url]), he'd questioned me voting Fennec, and his reason for switching his vote hinged upon him learning about my past experience in the game, and Thyn's prior vote (whose alignment he had not commented on). As has been pointed out, this is just not something a town player should do; even a confused town player would be more cautious with their vote here.
Whether or not you consider his vote on Fennec to be a trap to get us to think they're not a team (I'm still leaning that it could be), Sterling doesn't come out looking good at all.

As such:
[vote]Sterling the steampunk[/vote][/quote]
Then finally calling out sterling's vote on fennec and switching to sterling at that time feels incredibly unlikely to come from a partner. kiri's vote here ultimately contributed the momentum that forced sterling to claim, and there was no reason to pivot and start bussing here when people were going elsewhere and sterling had a fair number of defenders. I think if partnered with sterling kiri could easily have backed off the read and pushed elsewhere but she didn't.

I also think these posts from sterling are clearing for kkirigiri:

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]seeing how kkirgiri who played mafia on other sites before, and judging how she was able to get a read very early, I guess she's more used to playing by reads rather than power roles, I'm inclined to believe her feels. as well as Cat having suspicions and groups being able to make better guesses than individuals [vote]Fennec[/vote]

I still personally have stronger suspicions on maestro but the group is stronger than the induvial[/quote]
This post where Sterling tries to sheep kiri's reasoning onto voting fennec, is very unlikely to be about a partner. In general newb-scum rarely try to follow their partner so openly. They might vote together but they'll avoid saying it was because of their partner's reasoning.To me it looks like attempting to opportunistically bandwagon by piggybacking the reasoning of two incorrect townies. He seems to be [i]implicitly[/i] assuming we are town in that post by being willing to follow us and that's likely because he knows we are

[quote="Sterling the steampunk"]well, I've just found my lead, and I didn't even need to check backlog, I think kkirigiri is mafia because only a mafia would fake a CC, Also I have to take a walk[/quote]
[quote="Sterling the steampunk"][vote]kkirgiri[/vote][/quote]
The instant flail at kiri after he claimed cop is also really really unlikely to come from a partner, I think sterling knew he was in trouble and wouldn't want to possibly tart a wagon on his partner here, and the fact that he interpreted kiri's comment about thinking about faking a CC as a serious threat to him, when he'd know his partner wasn't actually CCing him.

[catboi]

that post sucks but it's the best i can conjure up right now and that's the extra credit assignment anyway

[catboi]

I don't have real commentary on my play so far Day3, I've been largely on autopilot. wayward backed off me more easily than expected, maestro and bbt have been lazy, i'm largely in the clear here now, it feels like

feel kind of bad for being that aggressive toward wingfan but I thought it was the best possible play

[catboi]

tapiocaphobe's reasons for suspecting me were actually fairly lucid, the assessment that I was trying to take control of the narrative was spot-on. The thing is rational players can usually be argued down with rational arguments, and my ounterargument is something I've said as town before - I think only looking for plausible scum motivation isn't enough, you have to figure out why something isn't coming from town. I'm not sure exactly how that

should

have been pointed out - I think a lot of my analysis in that start of day salvo isn't particularly good but no one really engaged with it or questioned me on it. I think if you actually dissect the reasoning I used it's not great. Maybe the fact that for a read I was supposedly convinced on I didn't really try to sell anyone on it.

Of course, someone who knows my meta would probably murder me for not townreading wingfan. That's a read I shouldn't be getting wrong as town but in this spot, no one is going to call me on it, so nyeh.


it's just...really easy to play as scum when townies are overtly lazy and don't really try. I'm not really trying to consciously manipulate anyone just letting them go after false leads

[catboi]

will likely hammer soon

had thought about making an "if i die" type of post but I feel like that'd come off overly self-conscious here and maybe people would read into it too much so I just...won't

[catboi]

Kill: Mastro

nothing to comment on, he's the most clear town, you kill those players before f3

[catboi]

right now basically spinning my wheels trying to look like I'm doing analysis while waiting for one of them to make the first move. I don't want to seem too passive as that is death but I don't want to vote first. I think I can probably push WS into voting if it comes down to it. Just pressure him about why he hasn't voted yet.

[catboi]

just don't have to put in a lot of work when town isn't doing much!

[catboi]

no redactions