Angels and Demons Dead/Spectator Thread

[demona]

I'm glad you enjoyed my pickings from Faust, Demona. Makes it worth the effort, if one person at least feels it adds to the game <3

i decided against posting all of my thoughts and theories re:faust in the thread due to worries about veering into maybe not so likely to be game related territory but i did quite enjoy them yes and feel they added greatly to my enjoyment here +) <3

[demona]

kinda hmm that the scums opted to shoot me and not to shoot in the mimepool but maybe they are confident in ability to shoot mime later or! they want to hide amongst the mimes

yup knew that is why they were asking.

i probably would not have asked others if they were a doctor to test that particular theory if i knew i could not self-protect and maybe(?) i would not have tried to obvtown so hard early but otherwise i think my play would have been more or less the same here and i think i was rather likely to be nightkilled regardless as i very often am when town and such so likely same outcome

2 of these people include mime and atleast 1 include scum.

i see imag and enchant being mime

if you think enchant is likely to be a mime why are you voting for enchant... mime's win by being eliminated...

but anyway no more solving from me and so forth will continue to read of course but yeah shouldn't play along

[demona]

Thank you! I hope my mime in crime (hey that rhymes) can clown it up

it is pretty interesting to think about approach to day two for mimes here

so towms want to eliminate a scums but not a mime, so trying to make separate pools and trying to find ways to minimize overlap,

and scums want to eliminate a towm but not a mime,

so scums have choice between trying to appear to be a towm, which maybe gives added benefit of more influence over who is eliminated and such, or possibly a mime, but if scums nightkill a mime later it's then no longer good to have hidden this way, and is also maybe not natural for a scums to imitate someone trying to be scumread but not appear to be trying to be eliminated

so yeah likely i think best approach would probably be trying to appear town and pushing towmreads as scumreads, also probably want to help in establishing a separate mimepool since scums also lose to it and it is easy towmy behaviour to emulate since they are also uninformed in this regard

and then mime's would want to be scumread but not mimeread by the towm and townread or to be an immediate threat that can't be put off until night by the scums, so scumhunting time and trying to push in a way that might look like a bus upon flip if possible?

(and i assume it probably has to be 2 scums because if it's only a single scums then the mimes would just need to correctly roleblock to become unkillable, and then even if correctly identified as a mime there might not be anything anyone could do about it and such)

[demona]

kinda hmm that the scums opted to shoot me and not to shoot in the mimepool but maybe they are confident in ability to shoot mime later or! they want to hide amongst the mimes

So the mimes are a bit of a giveaway regarding the setup. I like the role, I've used it in another setup before, but mostly it's used in the open Paris Mafia. Which happens to also be 11 players, that's the base from where the design started.

In the paris mafia games mimes tend to not get shot by the mafia. There's the occasional shared win where eliminating the final mime is also completing the scum's wincon. And it's a wonderful distraction to hide in. Who's a mime, who's obvious scum, etc. And it's pretty difficult to accidentaly kill a mime, they tend to be in the category that you can mis-elim.

oo i think all the mimes dying on nightkill of one is a very good adjustment, also probably should have looked more heavily into the games you had modded in the past (especially since biancospino even brought that up and i only looked into it a little bit), but still don't think i would have reached the correct conclusion until after self-hammer

hmm now i am kinda feeling as though i would have liked to have rolled a non-town win condition here but! i always like being town too

i guess here i would probably like to take the possibility of losing to the mimes off the table early if i were a scums and missing means eliminating a town anyway but maybe not until seeing how everyone approaches the game with additional information, so night two and such, but i am also not an expert strategist by any means, or even an above average one

[demona]

and then even if correctly identified as a mime there might not be anything anyone could do about it and such

unless a mime does not count as a threat to the towm towards towm's win condition or! if there is a vigilante of some sort

[demona]

and then even if correctly identified as a mime there might not be anything anyone could do about it and such

unless a mime does not count as a threat to the towm towards towm's win condition or! if there is a vigilante of some sort

yes, I don't think the mimes work without a vig of sorts. Town has to have a way to hunt them. And in this case it's even worse as the first mime elim could be kind of free, even though this is a bastard mod you aren't playing around a jester straight away. And then, I don't think CSF would've given off jester vibes? She played it rather well, I thought.

this makes sense,

and yeah i think cat scratch fever played it rather well, and if her partner did not have to get their hands too dirty for the elimination probably in a pretty good position here, and if so big benefit from how the day ended to play off of as well

[demona]

i believe in meuh

[demona]

she seems like a good player. Do you think she'll join you here soon, now you aren't there to protect her?

she is! i think everyone in this game is

well now i have read greeting's most recent post so answering this becomes a whole new consideration,

but immediately previously to that, let's see

like the ways she could die would be from elimination, vigilante or scum kill

and pre-greeting post i thought elimination was somewhat unlikely especially with her approach to the day so far, and if she was the vigilante she would not shoot herself and i thought she would not be a likely vigilante target, and if she was a scums she would not be the scum kill but i think if she was not a scums she would be a somewhat likely target for that, as she was being townread and she had some mime equity as well

[demona]

if greeting is truthful then my being flashing-green-lights town was beneficial at least even though i got myself killed as a pr

and if greeting is not truthful i admire this play whether greeting is a scums or a mime

though i would maybe lean towards truthful

[demona]

though i would maybe lean towards truthful

though meuh's reaction also feels pretty okay

yeah i dunno meant to not be solving anymore

[demona]

Actually damn this is surprisingly clever if you're maf
It means that flipping you is way too risky because you may be mime, and you could get a mislim on me which would help out a bunch

!!! i had this exact thought, so going to go back to leaning the other way,

(also i wonder if it is coincidence that i targeted meuh and the result of the watcher if truthful is that meuh targeted me

like in theory both could be truthful but the 'watcher' could actually not be a 'watcher' but instead a 'tracker' or something

like greeting could be being misled by result, hm)

maybe i just want it to be that one because they both feel okay to me here

[demona]

and then the 'got it from someone else' thing could be explained by that too

hmhmhm

okay back to my no solving hole, would probably be easier if i stopped following

but there is no chance i could stop myself from reading

[demona]

it would be a good play for mime greeting too, yeah definitely impressed by this line regardless of greeting's alignment

[demona]

Of course you are! It's fun trying to figure out the puzzle. Now you don't have any pressure.

i just feel like i have extra information and am an outsider now a ghost

but it is fun! that is certainly true

[demona]

This is fascinating from my point of view btw. Yesterday was occasionally hard to read, but this is fireworks.

indeed! i am sad to have missed the more exciting bits,

game felt off yesterday in a way that could probably be explained by the larger than usual number of non-towms and some players being actively disincentivized to solve

(and i probably contributed to yesterday being occasionally hard for you to read as well)

[demona]

this was always going to happen, and sort of happened day 1 as well, but the whole bastard thing can be a enormous red herring. It's hard to see if you are going to get role madness where nothing is true, you get whacked every which way constantly and are just in it for the ride, or if someone has just put a cult in there. And I don't really have a mod meta to fall back on, I don't imagine many people joining know what kind of games I tended to make (kind of low power, scumhunting based games with some experimental touch).

This game is slightly up on power compared to normal, perhaps, mostly because what we start from (Paris mafia) is quite scumsided. But it's not crazy in any way. The rules I am breaking or was going to break aren't easy to see from when you are playing. So you end up being in a more normal game than you perhaps expected. I hope it doesn't screw town over thinking too much about it.

i was previously altogether unfamiliar with you and the games you have moderated but going forward i would be very interested in your next game if there is going to be a next game and such, whether it is a bastard game or not

i really love how the theme and the bastard nature of this game encourage thinking about possibilities and why players are playing the way they are playing and how it can reward player creativity as well

the bastard games i am generally most fond of are the ones that feel like a theme game without restrictions like anything is possible but that all of the choices are in service to the game not just as a gotcha for the players or to entertain the moderator, like unexpected roles and game events and things like that can be very exciting,

and the ones i am maybe less fond of are the ones that are simply the moderator lying to the players or like role madness or things like that and also the ones that do not really involve playing anything that resembles mafia instead of another game altogether

which is maybe a complicated way of saying i like the ones that are fun for me to play and not so much the ones that are like, this was a sliding puzzle or a logic puzzle and you had no way of knowing that! or just feel entirely random or like players are being punished for playing the game (mimes very good, solo jester that ends the game by winning bad, for instance)

but i also understand that i am probably a very small audience in an already small community - it's just nice to find games that engage me as much as this one did from time to time, so thankyou

[demona]

hm, i am not really sure i am buying the narrative here since it does not explain the watcher result and such

[demona]

which narrative would you mean?

meuh self-hammer and saying gg / grandpamo saying it exposes meuh

like sure mime target with the roleblock could have been me to explain half the watcher result but then wouldn't the watcher have also seen someone else visiting me? which could definitely be explained by a ninja but i don't know,

just doesn't quite feel like all the pieces fit correctly to me

[demona]

The doctor even protected you!

yeah it's always better for town if i role vt

i was unable to self-protect and i did not want to protect in the mime pool in case the mafias went that route instead of shooting me and thus!

[demona]

Glad to have managed to fool some people

i will listen to the little voice next time +)

[demona]

and i think your dayplay was quite good here yeah

[demona]

Anyway, I still think that you're (

GrandpaMo

) a mime.

Reasons:
- I think that you wanted your Day 1 gambit to backfire and result in you being voted out for making false claims and confusing everyone;
- I think that your actual power is a role which is designed to weaken the mime faction by making it harder for them to win, and it makes sense that a mime would have that role.

there’s also the whole pushing cat scratch fever elimination through thing

think that’s one of my main takeaways her

[demona]

oops meant to hit preview

that’s one of my main takeaways here - to not bend on the using our time thing

[demona]

i used to loathe most optimism or any sort of blind hope but recently i mostly find myself thinking ‘town’s got this’ without any sort of firm reasoning as to why; even yesterday when i knew less and was wrong about more i felt the same way,

[demona]

lol

if we are self-selecting i suppose i would like to be gretchen, at least if confined to part i

you’ll loose the chains,
and take me to your breast again.
how is it you don’t shrink from me?
do you know, friend, whom you free?

[demona]

a beggar’s life is such a wretched fate—
far more when you’re pursued by guilt and hate.
to go from door to door, from town to town—
and in the end, i know they’ll hunt me down.

God may forgive you yet,

she is saved!

[demona]

[demona]

oops, thankyou; unrestricted version:

Spoiler:

i should get in the habit of checking

[demona]

it’s interesting that the songs from her official channel are region locked like that when she isn’t american or even us-based

i have never done the song game in discord - i very rarely use discord - but i used to regularly participate in the song contest on the forum (and maybe i should do so again)

(or if the clip didn't have too much nudity for the Americans >.>)

americans’ view of nudity is still so foreign to me; years ago i actually posted a pretty incredible pina bausch performance set to rite of spring and was told it was sexually explicit due to nudity and i hadn’t even considered it might be viewed that way

(also american television showing women being murdered but making sure to obscure their nipples is Very American but i digress)

It was also surprisingly hard to find a part of the poem where she and her brother speak which could be posted. In isolation, or perhaps even in context, it's quite rude.

i think that’s part of why the end is so important - the fact that she is redeemed and such - because how harsh he is to her and who is he (or anyone) to judge

[demona]

town solving energy so low +(

[demona]

Lol at how the /quote in my post messed up your quote really bad.

Eh, that would require pressing back

passing over two other posts he made

and then explicitly submitting the third on the way backward. Or opening multiple tabs for the same game to post consecutive posts for seemingly no reason; I guess it's plausible but why

also, uh, i have done this before

like i said at the time if you hit back sometimes it says ‘do you want to submit this form again’ or something like that and it won’t go away and just let me find whatever page i am trying to go back to and yeah

[demona]

sometimes i just click on things so it seems plausible to me that’s how the double post happened - also seems possible it was intentional i guess

[demona]

(also i always have multiple tabs of the game open whenever i’m around on pc which yeah i am super messy and probably shouldn’t be considered the ‘norm’ by any means and have created a few small scale disasters but at the very least here i can see multiple ways it might have happened)

[demona]

Uh. I tried to replicate it in my notes pt and couldn't manage to unless I deliberately pressed sumbit again :shrug:
Peraphs depends on the browser

ah hm, trying to replicate it now on my phone, if i go from preview then submit then back through it catches on ‘post review’ of the post i have just made when trying to resubmit, which is identical to the post being resubmitted, presumably as well as any posts i have made in the meantime as well, and would then have to press submit again from there, hmhmhm

[demona]

town solving energy so low +(

This is the downside of looking towards claims. It takes up the attention and it's hard to move on with. End of last day already had that. Biancospino's elim was not the prettiest and I suspect it's difficult to gain information from as well because there wasn't a realistic counterwagon.

Otoh, the day where greeting vs meuh happened is a goldmine, someone will go back to it. You can find arguments to call anyone scum there.

hopefully someone will go back to it, yes

i think there’re a lot of things to go back to and look over throughout the game and also a lot more could be gleaned from asking players to rewalk through things or even current thoughts on things / what everyone thinks is the most plausible there’s so much just

just idk not a lot of energy for anyone to do it it seems

maybe next evolution i consider trying to find a way to be alive for days like this

[demona]

(also i always have multiple tabs of the game open whenever i’m around on pc which yeah i am super messy and probably shouldn’t be considered the ‘norm’ by any means and have created a few small scale disasters but at the very least here i can see multiple ways it might have happened)

...I guess, like I also use to open a bunch of tabs for like isos and old pages and stuff, but like, multiple tabs one's actively submitting from, and using both in a span of minutes, switching at least twice in fact? Including going back from the oldest one for some reason.

Or just grabbing stuff drafted somewhere having forgotten about it already being posted, kinda the occam's razor option. Since Mo's mime is not really unvelievable anyway

yeah grandpamo being a mime still seems somewhat likely to me yes it just doesn’t seem like that likely of a post to have been copy and pasted from a draft to me

like it’s not one that i would think would have to be workshopped or anything i guess

but i guess maybe he also works very differently from how i do as a post like that i would just write and submit especially as non-town fiddling with it only likely to make it less ‘genuine’

but also looking at it with the giant magnifying glass now it’s not like that post is even really related to my post so much and it does feel generally out of place

[demona]

maybe next evolution i consider trying to find a way to be alive for days like this

And then you'll find that you also will get quite a bit of recency bias and that it's decently difficult to reset your thoughts

oh the purpose of my being alive for days like this would certainly not be because i believe i would have particularly accurate reads or views of the game were i alive or anything like that just that i could be me on a day like this where maybe my doing so is more beneficial than it was on day one and we have access to more information to reach conclusions from, right like the average player is significantly better than i am but would i still be frantically looking under rocks here? yes

but also, would have to do it on a secret alt formatted outside of my usual range because otherwise it likely just results in my being pushed early game for not doing the thing and then my having to do the thing to stop the push on me which at that point has already detracted from the solving of the game - and that is alot of work

and maybe altogether unideal as there are measurable benefits of current approach that would be lost, such as watcher check this game or if i had been able to self-protect or if there was another protective things like that / forcing the mafias hand in general

[demona]

i wonder if meuh was also unable to self-target or maybe even to partner-target

in theory greeting

could

be partnered with meuh it’s just that there would not have been any reason for mafia!greeting to immediately guilty meuh there and grandpamo suggesting that that was likely to be what occurred is one of the least towny things to me,

or maybe i have been fooled by this ploy but… unlikely yeah

[demona]

thinking about it more now tho…

maybe town should use phir’s no elimination here

right if claims accurate there’s now no way to eliminate mime without the mafia doing so, so eliminating mafia here just leads to no elimination loop - assumed draw due to neither town nor mimes being able to win? so hope mafia shoots mime, and if noone dies again assume the mime probably knows who the mafia is and just ask i guess? and you don’t lose an elimination because! you only had one anyway just need to be confident in ability to find the two other towns at five

right like if town gets eliminated at six and there is a nightkill there is no longer anyway to win unless the mime is the nightkill, which is identical to five, so sleep here i think yeah

because two towns one mafia one mine cannot result in a town win unless one of the scums plays against win condition

[demona]

living claims are

1 shot no elim vigilante
1 shot bulletproof
vt who gained a watcher shot
vt
vt
solo mason

still have a missing action from meuh somewhere though - possibly roleblocked by mimes tho because it was after the self-hammer or possibly targeted partner

maybe(?) imaginality can shoot again if town, which still benefits sleeping i think - would trust a shot that would pretty much have to be coming from town more than an elimination when elimination has more possible bad outcomes

[demona]

right if claims accurate there’s now no way to eliminate mime without the mafia doing so, so eliminating mafia here just leads to no elimination loop - assumed draw due to neither town nor mimes being able to win? so hope mafia shoots mime, and if noone dies again assume the mime probably knows who the mafia is and just ask i guess? and you don’t lose an elimination because! you only had one anyway just need to be confident in ability to find the two other towns at five

ok, so the wording of the town PM is that they win when the threats to the town are eliminated. This is a very stupid technicality, but the wording means town has won if only the mimes are left. So the mime's goal here is to avoid eliminating the mafia.

ohh so mimes do not count as a threat to the town okay - so the game isn’t quite as difficult as i thought

so mimes really want to eliminate town and really do not want to sleep here, as a town elimination and a town nightkill is guaranteed mime and mafia victory

at four the mine just outs themself and refuses to vote and tells the mafia to refuse to vote, no elimination happens mafia kills one of the towns and then next day mime self-votes

[demona]

so pushing for sleep probably even better than previously thought

[demona]

still confused about how the last town eliminates themself tho; like the mine isn’t going to vote for the town so still a draw? unless i am still not understanding

[demona]

but am also okay with the game continuing indefinitely - 1000 to 2000 years in purgatory et cetera et cetera

[demona]

but the mafia victory happens at the same moment as the mime victory of the mafia votes the mine, yes?

[demona]

i would think that would just be simultaneous victory, but i guess maybe i am still misunderstanding the win conditions

[demona]

nevermind you’re right mafia need to be only ones alive

[demona]

ignore all previous thoughts lol sorry all assumptions based on faulty understandings

[demona]

In fact 1v1v2 night, mafia should kill the mime, this leads to a 1v2 elo with 2/3 scum EV instead of a 1v1v1 where the townie will probably just decide to let the mime win

town still only gains second elimination if mafia kills the mime, so maybe beneficial for town to not sleep then? since mafia gains information/becomes more likely to shoot the mime but no elim maybe resolves so much (if mafia shot bp they probably shoot it again etc) so tough call here, sleep probably still preferable?

if mime roleblocked the mafia (which mafia probably knows as well) probably(?) will again, and then ??

1v1v1 actually somewhat interesting

if town votes the mafia, and mime hammers, then unresolvable 1:1

if town or mafia votes the mime, the mime wins

if mafia and mime vote town, then it’s an unresolvable 1:1 again between mine and mafia? because of roleblock

so town always supposed to try to vote mafia and then mime is the kingmaker between draw with town and draw with mafia, yeah?

but either scum faction maybe has an out to these as mykonian seemed likely to have well considered potential outcomes

[demona]

still confused about how the last town eliminates themself tho; like the mine isn’t going to vote for the town so still a draw? unless i am still not understanding

I don't quite understand your question. In the case you describe, mafia is around, they vote out the mime, they both complete their wincons (mafia controls the town, mimes all got eliminated).

but am also okay with the game continuing indefinitely - 1000 to 2000 years in purgatory et cetera et cetera

I have a "rocks fall, everybody dies" rule I can dust off should such a situation arise.

i guess maybe i am still not understanding how a mimes and towm endgame plays out - towns have to eliminate all threats to town, mime is only a threat if mime can still be eliminated, but there’s no way to reach a point where the mime is alive and it is impossible for the mime to be eliminated, and mime wins by being eliminated, so i guess it just still seems like a draw to me, unless the mime just doesn’t count as a threat to town while alive and then it’d just be a town victory at 3:1 or whatever, which i think(?) is what you were saying earlier but then for some reason i started thinking you meant something else sorry

[demona]

nevermind you’re right mafia need to be only ones alive

Or nothing can stop this from happening, which would be the case described here.

I've tried to be a lawyer with the wincons to get it to the point where it follows the precedent, and feels logical. As you can tell, that's not that easy to do >.>

Edit: so the intention is to let the 1-1-1 scenario play out with claims and have it end up a shared mime/mafia win. If mafia gets eliminated in the following day, town wins.

the uneasy of it is definitely part of the beauty here!! quite enjoying thinking about this

hm, but wouldn’t the mime then be able to win by voting themself out at 0:0:1 and would thus still be a threat to town?

[demona]

i accidentally deleted the middle part of my last post musing about vigilantes and now it doesn’t make any sense ignore that

[demona]

the mafia-vigilante crosskill mime self-elimination solo-victory outcome is the shining star possibility here to me tho yeah

[demona]

(which would bring us back to no elimination likely being correct play for town here)

[demona]

Btw, I

really

doubt Imag can possibly have shots left, otherwise the obvious strategy after we've seen a mime flip would be to prevent all lims and shoot them at night and like, my execution wasn't delayed

could be even night or something i guess

i think it’s somewhat common for even nights to claim one shot after use

but yeah very well could just be one shot also, am maybe leaning that way as well

[demona]

also unrelated to current conversation but sorry for misreading you here biancospino, just that one post felt so much like something i have noticed myself doing more as mafia where i look through isos for something specific like that when joining a push and it set off my spidey sense in the moment and then of course day was over before i was able to go back over it outside of the moment

[demona]

In fairness it was kind of scummy-looking. In fact that's the sort of thing I end up doing like, every game and get constantly mislimmed for, so maybe I should learn not to

i would like to think if given time for you to explain this to me or to show me other examples and such outside of a situation where other players are saying ‘day must end now please hammer!’ in a way that still doesn’t make any sense to me outside of wanting to believe it was not town motivated that maybe i would have been able to see that or found towniness in other things but we will never know

i don’t think it’s something you should stop doing - like there’s obviously benefit to pointing out things like that you find noteworthy while looking at someone’s iso as town - just to me i guess i would like it to be more divorced from the push, or like more weight given to why that is important to your view of the slot and less to its seeming usefulness as a means to a vote, but yeah looking through isos of players under suspicion good though do not mean to discourage that in anyway

[demona]

In fairness it was kind of scummy-looking. In fact that's the sort of thing I end up doing like, every game and get constantly mislimmed for, so maybe I should learn not to

or they should meta you better!

I've gotten mislimmed so often here I do not believe in town self preservation. I don't think it was because I was a horrible player, I just didn't play to survive, I feel the onus of that is on the rest of the town.

indeed; i almost certainly should have just didn’t end up putting anytime into that particular task here, might have had the day gone on and biancospino said the above there but yeah, i certainly failed on that front

oh we are very much opposites in this way; i have never been voted out as town in 45ish forum length games (and twice in 11 games as mafia) like the only alignment i am ever sure of is my own so self-preservation always seems correct to me just inherently the position i have always solved from is ‘i am town now what’ and encourage others to solve from the same perspective of me because i know it to be correct and when i am at my most unsure of other things i find myself working back towards that foundation,

though sometimes i have run into a bit of trouble with this when pushing for mech solves that involve everyone else also assuming i am town and the game is won

and i guess to me i feel like that onus is on me as well like it isn’t only on town to see that i am town but also on me to show them i am town but! i also understand that the way i think about things is different from the way others think about things and that’s why i try to find ways for other players to maybe show me when i can’t find it by otherwise looking at their posts or through direct interaction with them but i need to maybe brainstorm some better ways to try to do so as it has often enough proved ineffective

[demona]

sure, but I am also scum and yet I know I'm the towniest town that has ever towned. And as such you should all know I shouldn't be limmed. Self preservation is core to scum play. If the focus of your town play is the same as scum, how much energy can you spend at actually finding who the scum are? Because as scum you can always put more energy into looking townier than town, so that you shouldn't be eliminated.

being able to focus solely on finding the scums and not having to worry about being pushed and such is part of why i try to show others i am town early and often these days to get any pushes on me out of the way as early as possible (because despite my best efforts it still seems to almost always happen at some point) to not only be able to focus on finding the actual scums but also so others can focus on finding the actual scums if they are town

and i think i generally at least in most games have enough energy to do both simultaneously though there is maybe an argument to be made that it can make things needlessly messy sometimes as people will see anyway if given time i just want them to see sooner i guess should maybe work on weighing approaches a little more situationally

and sure, maybe that has contributed to my largely unexplainable success as a scums, to me it’s a core part of playing either alignment, and part of the aforementioned mech solve issue is that i have done so as a scums

[demona]

right from my perspective the it doesn’t make me harder to sort because…

i am always towm