Newbie 1963: the worst

[the worst]

it's just occurred to me Eth0s realised the masons were a thing. his buddy would have known at some point after his replace in and i probably shouldn't treat reactions to e.g. my doc claim, later mason discussions, as genuinely indicative of Not Enough Information >.<

[the worst]

Let me explain what's been going on inside my head.
Regarding Post 817,

You seem confident you can be confirmed easily, so my thoughts on a scum team would be ethos and fuz.
If you are bluffing then it'd be ethos you

woah woah hold the phone explain this right now please[/spoiler]

Okay, so here is my current thoughts. The way FF has been acting to me is calling out a few possibilities.
1. They're scum since they've been pushing on flipped town and myself.
2. They're Town but wanting themselves to seem scummy but not too much to get lynched so that mafia doesn't kill them.
3. They are a confirmable role so they can be aggressive and lure out scumslips as they may have the ability to confirm themself as town easily.

I leaned towards the last option and I thought I made that obvious even without explicitly saying it but I guess not. I usually lay shit out like possibilities and options that may or may not be viable or not to see other reactions and base reads on that as well as how they make their reads etc. My vote was always on FF (as in I always intended to vote them back which I see why I shouldn't now but I didn't before) because I wanted to kind of pressure Gyro into answering the question they seemed to miss/avoid.

i don't really massively think this was the case prior to them actually posting 817 tbh. JV's play is more consistent with them believing *1* not 3, and it doesn't feel ingenuous indicating that they were leaning towards 3. outside possibility that this read was coached actually but only wrt the depth of it vs. the rest of JV's analysis of fishy (disclaimer: i also didn't read fishy very deeply and came to the same conclusion, so :shrug: it's lucky i towntold separately)

Regarding the Marionette, I had the feeling at the time you were buddies so I tried baiting you to slip up somewhere but it didn't work so I really didn't have any interesting read there. Indeed it was a weak attempt at pushing for pressure. And I don't believe I brought up your inactivity explicitly and that would not be a reason for me scumreading you.

this is kinda fine but it's again reflective of a more profound thought than what JV was sharing itt; it's totally possible it's just good ol fashioned Fancy Player Syndrome but there's a ~equal possibility they were just pushing where they thought they could and making up bonus justifications for it after the fact.

Another thing before I do that, JV has mentioned Eth0s a handful of times in his ISO, but never given any real reasoning no matter whether he's listed him as town or scum in his book. If he thinks Eth0s is scum, there should be some actual reasoning behind it. Could easily just be another weak bus attempt to say "Hey, I had him on my scum team" if he does get lynched today and flips red.

I don't get why you'd list multiple times as being either alignment, and then giving zero reason as to why you believe so. Again, the passive playstyle just doesn't seem right for a player who has been so involved in the game.

For reference, the posts I'm looking at: 764 882 921

Regarding Eth0s I had no reason to not suspect him and thus town read them since they seemed to give a pretty decent list of reads etc but now it comes to 4/ now 3 unconfirmed town. PoE says they're scum from my pov

not evaluating flipped scum alignment outside of by POE isn't a great look; understand this could come from town who is just townreading me in this situation tho :/

You talking about my inactivity was in post 879, that's what I was referencing.

And sure, PoE makes sense now, but prior to that is where it gets iffy.

You started with him as potential scum in Post 764 with no other thoughts on him.

Then in 882 you switched him over to town. Again, with no no explanation.

So your 931 is accounted for by PoE, but the others still aren't.

Actually, wait, no. I was referring to your 921, not your 931. Your 921 again switches Eth0s back over to scum, which wasn't when PoE had kicked in yet since Fuz hadn't been lynched.

this is a better take than it looked the first time
JV's handling of Eth0s has largely been influenced by when they need someone to fill a certain position in a solve etc. and they haven't really earnestly evaluated eth0s yet. that being said neither has uncrowned, outside of responding to eth0s shading him

There's no framing going on, it's me looking at your inconsistencies and seeing what I can gather from them. Right now, they put you at the top of my list. The only real instance I've seen you actually give a decent reason for someone being scum is PoE, but that only works assuming that you're town, which I don't think you are atm.

Will reread your ISO now but I'm not sure what you want me to get out of your read baits. If just calling people town or scum with no backup behind your thoughts is a read bait in your mind then you're not helping out town. Maybe I'll find something more indicative this time around.

As far as I remember, you've had just as much accuracy with your reads and I will checkers that one now.

I'm not criticizing your reads, man. I've been dead wrong on both of mine, them being Gyro and Fuz.

I'm pointing out the fact that you've swung from Point A to Point B numerous times with no rhyme or reason. It seems out of character for someone who at one stage of the game was set on FF being scum. The fact that you became so passive and swingy gives me reason to believe you're scum.

Every read I've had, I've stuck to it and had reasons as to why I've felt that way. Wrong or not, they seemed agreed upon and in some cases followed up on by other players (including yourself). We need to be aggressive if we're going to find scum, and prior to this you've only showed aggression when defending yourself, and when targeting Fish.

The more I look back on it, the more it starts to make sense. You push on Fish because you thought he'd be easy to push on and other people will agree with you. You push hard, it doesn't work, no-one except for worst really seems to have even a slight bit of suspicion towards Fish, so you back off since you know it's not going to go through.

That's why you played more passive from that point on, talking in "maybes" and "I guesses" trying to keep yourself as a safe player, the only time you really started speaking out being when you've had people wagoning against you.

Now you're kicking into gear again because I've got the read on you and you're trying to find something to suggest otherwise. I'm starting to think I've got this figured out, though.

shit i think i just agree with uncrowned here.
fmpov the decision isn't between a towny and a wolfy slot and i'm just not sure if i'm pocketed atm, it's between:

uncrowned

hasn't done as much but has been more consistent and had trajectory; i don't think his trajectory is outside of a lot of scumranges, but it's sound trajectory

jv

has been hyperengaged and had quite a lot of stances, it's just not all of them make sense

i think my experience tends towards just hammering #2 rather than getting paranoid and trying to look for crafty scum creating good trajectories (see: vengeful goasties). i hope one day mastina and pine read this game for some reason and read this pt and they're like "woohoo! go duck!"

the other thing about this 5p is that uncrowned is angling towards a JV lynch which if scum with eth0s would win him the game; JV is angling an eth0s lynch which means going into f3 against one of {duck,fish} to secure the uncrowned mislynch. uncrowned is closer to pushing a transparent agenda but i do think it's within JV/eth0s team scumrange to have the conversation about whether or not to bus.

You've literally town-read the scum the entire game essentially it seems, what an ooof if you're town lol

one interesting thing is the "if you're town", and the constantly explaining their own thought process to uncrowned, seems to come from a less certain mindset; this is either scum who knows they're talking to town or town who starts to worry that the person they're arguing with is actually just town but i don't really see JV reevaluating their uncrowned read at this point so i guess their approach to his slot is kinda inconsistent

[the worst]

So no, I think I'm right in saying your reads have chopped and changed significantly over the course of the game. Being open-minded is cool, but from what I've seen from your play, yours seems more opportunistic and set on achieving mislynches.

Another point of interest here is that on every vote you've made except on Fish IIRC, there's already been other people voting on that player. Me, Bugspray, Gyro and Fuz all at one point or another had a lot of attention coming our way and had at least one or two votes set on us before you decided to jump in. Call it a frame if you want, I'm calling it as suspicious until I get more from worst and eth0s.

yeah
i agree with this again
uncrowned isn't saying anything i disagree with
and jv has prequalified themselves as ~able to be framed!!~

actually if i was in uncrowned's position here i don't think i'd really be able to post anything different to what he's posting here; i think in jv's position there is an opening to request that uncrowned goes deeper than he has so far :/

I null-read you.

this mood is like a wrecking ball through my soul
i'm null null null null on them
not seeing a transparent agenda, not seeing transparent scumplay, not seeing transparent associatives
just like hard "maybes" on both of them

i think uncrowned is talking through his thoughts a fair bit more than JV is talking through their thoughts; if i'm wrong and uncrowned is scum, he's set this up so so so well.

And right now I do think The Worst is town, but I'm not set on anything yet until we get more discussion. He's clearly a smart player. You and Ethos are definitely more on my radar than he is, though I'm yet to read his ISO.

i liek this :3 it's townie or virtue signalling tho so not a sell, i just like it. uncrowned isn't looking to make friends with me in f5 despite the fact he wants a JV lynch.

Okay, I'll word it like this. From your pov, you're town yes? And when you town-read duckyboi you're scum-reading the other two, yet when I started talking more THEN you started scum-reading me which is a giant ass red flag considering you already should be thinking of it that way.

If you look from my pov, can you see it?

requesting empathy from someone who you're meant to be scumreading is like a leaf right out of the scumduck book >.< but this might actually be towny
this happened postgame in a secret hitler game i played like a week ago what was the conversation

i was guiltied but just kept arguing against it
at one point i stopped and asked the person with the guilty if she was just doing a reaction test; i told her she wouldn't get anything meaningful from me and i don't think anyone would respond with much of interest
luckily it didn't gather a lot of attention but my fascist buddy told me postgame she was super super worried bc it sounded like i was trying too hard to qualify a townread on someone who fmpov should be almost certainly scum.

that's what i'm starting to think i'm seeing here. JV is trying too hard to reach out to uncrowned when ftpov {uncr, eth0s} is the scumteam. if this was a sincere thought i'd kinda look to them to voice a read along these lines and seriously reevaluate me. i asked jv for the point where they realised i was town when we entered 3p. their response was like "well i didn't know til i hammertested, but i was pretty sure"--it's just a tell to me that they haven't gone back and evaluated how likely i am to actually be town... yet they're looking to find common ground with someone who is pushing them, ftpov, in pretty bad faith

i think it's kinda disingenuous but not in an unclever way at all


re the next posts i think i put it perfectly in realtime:

actually given Uncr had an incorrect scumread yday and is forced to reevaluate you today I think the mindset of
"oh by POE I guess JV is scum..."
"oh that's a scumpost"
"oh that could be scum too"
"OH THIS IS SCUM"
checks as a town indicative mindset

obv. i'm not a mind reader (YET) and i'm still building a baseline mindset for uncr - but i don't think the trajectory there is actually scum indicative. him interacting with you like you're town while trying to lynch you defs wld be. but i think the active reconsideration/affirmation could p easily come from town

Well, exactly. That's why I'm asking him why he said that.

And again, exactly. He hasn't done much of anything. I don't want to keep repeating myself, but I've already made a bunch of posts in the last few hours explaining my thoughts on you, so just read those. I've said it again and again, my list in order of most likely to be town to least likely is: Worst, Ethos, You.

this isn't scum indicative from uncrowned, and jv is kinda casing suboptimal argumentative structure rather than scumminess :/ but from their perspective the argument sukcs because they know it's wrong. but i think the argument from uncrowned is like, factually sound, just argued in a way that isn't bleeding heart-ey.

[the worst]

And you said almost nothing of relevance in response to my post 969, besides saying you were set on Ethos being scum.

Literally that means nothing since if you're scum you're obviously bussing

...I want you to listen to yourself.

As I've said multiple times, Ethos had almost NO attention on him during D2. I was one of the ONLY people who saw something in his posts that struck me as odd, so I brought it up.

And everyone, including yourself, virtually ignored it. And then? The phase ended.

Keep in mind that I also had no attention on myself, so why in the world would I decide to start a conflict and get put under the microscope?

Because clearly I had a suspicion on Ethos, and I was willing to get into conflict if it meant finding a scum. You calling this a SvS is a reach, and I just laid out why.

this is like, very true

JV responses have hit the point where they're largely pointless to analyse because from their pov they're true. i don't really have a meta profile on them so i can't analyse the posts any harder for mindset/thought process tells. hrmph

You've said minimal about Ethos this entire game. You've either said (at various stages of the game) that he's town or scum, and that's about it. You also said he doesn't done much this game, which is true. But that's it. No other reads, no posts he's made that have set off alarm bells in your head, nothing except that "oh, he must be scum because I'm pretty sure Worst is good."

The lack of reads is unsettling and I think you've seen the opportunity to bus him and haven't given it the proper setup. You've slipped up, and now you're making all these reads on me while entirely ignoring the guy you are almost certain is scum. How does that make sense? It doesn't.

+1 yeah

unsure

responses to my attempts to mindset case are ok, they're largely policy related things and still not really outside the "either JV knows uncrowned is scum, or has to believe he is" dilemma :c

Gyro Zeppeli - doesn't give a fuck how he's perceived which gives me a bit of pause. mentality is probably town tho. fwiw I've found his posts heavily relatable and think they probably come from a solving mindset who isn't super invested/doesn't feel the need to be townread, rather than a scum mindset who wants to force an agenda but post little enough that he's not mislynched. his takes haven't been popular. they've gone against the grain. but ngl they've aligned more with how I've been seeing things. looks like a dude who's been spending more time looking for scum than sitting on the thread tryna be townread; this is prolly town most of the time.

Actually rq either of you have any feelings about this? I'm being vain ik but I thought it was a p hot take and no one really reevaluated Gyro's alignment at all late d1


pedit: I'm aware your ISO already explains it. I just said your ISO explains it. :< I'm trying my best ok !!!! the scum in {you, jv} has played well and hasn't been put into a position where they've kinda been 'exposed' so I'm trying my best to work with what we got!

When I saw that post, I saw your point to an extent but I wasn't convinced. The only posts I liked from him were 468and 581 but I wanted more, which is why I wanted the phase to keep going. Other than that, what I saw from him was either unrelated or just random, such as 140 242 and 252 which were some examples of what I thought wasn't helpful.

this response is so earnest on the flipside it's kinda perspective slippy that JV didn't have any feelings wrt reevaluating Gyro latephase

[the worst]

@TheWorst

The way I've been operating this game is trying to weigh a slots Townie moves against their Scum moves. I kind of explained that thought process with Gyro, where I liked some of his stuff, but I disliked more of it.

With Gardenia, it was the same thing but in reverse. I didn't like her votes and as I said, I saw it as opportunistic play. However, her explanations were DECENT (not great, because they seemed like potential cop out sort of answers imo) but she had done other things prior to that, such as her post 150 that I thought were okay. Between her and Mari, I still wanted more out of Mari, and between Gard and Gyro, I still wanted more out of Gyro.

I did let her off a little easy since at that point I was still playing sorta passive, i'll admit.

this makes sense, as a playstyle and as an approach to this game. it doesn't take a massive scumrange to emulate what uncrowned has done this game with it but i think it's consistent with his approach to this game yeah

@TheWorst

I'd prefer you get to the end of my ISO and see the connections I've been making from JV's earlier play to now, things will make a lot more sense then once you start seeing what I'm seeing.

this is such a valid @me except i can see scum being proud of the setup and asking me to come and affirm what they've done heeelaplplplp

I don't want Uncrowned lynched, simply because when they flip scum eth0s will instantly suggest that Uncrowned/JV scumteam and ew
VOTE: Eth0s

steering the dichotomy onto {jv, eth0s} here is such a solid move regardless of alignment

if town: they're a bit too focused on personal optics and don't really realise what they're doing
if scum: they have decided to bus. this is consistent with their d3 but not with the way they've handled the gardslot prior to this; i think a bus makes sense here

welp just noticed the vote in preview

JV if you're still around you should really unvote me quickly.

this underwhelms

[the worst]

i need to ignore all of eth0s' final reads and i hate that. he realises he's in a super precarious situation here; all that really makes sense is to distance from his buddy. both of his pushes against JV/uncrowned were quite weak. he wasn't trying to score towncred so i don't think there's super valuable s/s tells to look for here. ;c

Why's that? Are you saying Uncrowned and Ducky are scum and will hammer you?

I mean it's certainly possible. Or you're scum and one of them is your partner.

I understand I haven't been very active at all, and that's my fault but voting me so quickly could lead to an insta lose if you're actually town.

The Worst (IS TOWN):

Not a lot to say about Saladman. He seemed like he was trying to solve the game in the short time he was here.

Datisi had a lot of strong arguments, asked a lot of questions, DID a lot with the information gathered. It seems like she clashed a bit with Unc and thought he was scummy. And... wait

Datisi received game compromising information. The PRs are masons there is no game compromising info for a scum to receive there.

Holy shit. Ducky is locktown and I don't have to do his ISOdive

Wow, I try and sleep and you drop that.
You locktown them but don't scumread me and uncrowned. Nice slip

I really hate using info like that to break the game but like. It just doesn't make sense that scum could receive game compromising info in this setup. Ducky conftown and JV and unc confscum!

i can't really see this exchange as clearing anymore tbh
they're just exchanging posts too fast in realtime; i know when i was in realtime with JV they were more hesitant and slower to respond and less CERTAIN in their reads
the way eth0s circles around jv making kinda superficial/throwaway comments and jv pushes back to find evidence they're scum despite already being voting them (then eth0s eventually votes them come #1119 is kinda eh

JV feels overcertain; vs. their engagements with uncrowned where they felt a lot less sure and tried to appeal to uncrowned.. it's quite a marked difference

[the worst]

This is literally the same shit over again but with you instead of Uncrowned. I don't need this useless stress fighting with lockscum so they can bait a misplay and use that against me to mislynch so I will likely just try and sleep

aaa it feels so different to JV/uncrowned to me thooo

[the worst]

How am I using AtE with Worst I'm literally saying that I think it's a bad move that he's glossimg over the end of my ISO.

The fact you're reaching like that makes me want to put my vote on you but either way we're lynching scum so unless Eth0s has put up something convincing I'll be voting him

Worst's entire reasoning behind why he thinks you're town seems to be AtE which can be faked. If he wants to ignore the connections I've been making then I can't really hate on him for it. Odd for someone who has taken the rest of the game with such an analytical approach but what can you do. It's just a game.

getting a little snipey with me here is pretty anti-pocket indicative :U
don't really think scum!uncrowned does this tbh

[the worst]

But what it I secretly AM scum... hhhmmmm...

gottem > : )

[the worst]

That was a ballsy as shit play by me I must say but I am so glad you did what I REALLLY was hoping you would do.
UNVOTE: Uncrowned

You're confirmed town

think this is potentially perspective slippy; their intent was to prove me town rather than to alienate the gamestate into a {jv,uncr} dichotomy. this is a pockety mindset imo.

How do you feel about fishy dying?

I have no idea why you thought you'd die considering they were confirmed by their role and you are not as much (well to me you are now considering you didn't hammer just now but back then you were not). Any scum with a brain would have attacked Fishyboi and not you.

didn't consider a fishy kill was even a remote possibility

[the worst]

If I were scum, I would've shot Worst. Worst said he'd be fine with lynching me D3 and FF had already had some questionable interactions with JV that would've made it easier for me to sway Fish than Worst, from my POV.

i sincerely agree, i think uncrowned considers this as well; shooting me when i had a strong stance d3 is a +wifom move. in fact:

It would've been a smart play by JV to kill Worst and then bring that up, especially since he thought I fit the bill for the Bugspray kill earlier in the game. I don't think he saw that far ahead though.

I AGREE! either scumbutt should have killed me here. fishy is a much wilder card than me in lylo, tho i guess neither really knows my meta, but the work i started in f5 should've been a hint that playing lylo with me is like watching paint dry while people are dragging their fingernails on chalk boards!

He puts JV as his clear Scum Lean. First, this makes it already looks susp towards me as I was the one going in on JV earlier in the D3 stage. Then, he puts me a "N/S" to make us seem aligned in the event that Eth0s gets lynched.

i agree, this is a very obvious distancing move for scum who is in the most exposed position the way eth0s was d3.

Now Eth0s gets the best of both worlds. If he gets lynched on D3, JV looks more townie because JV voted on him AND they were heavily conflicting, whereas Eth0s was being more neutral towards me. If JV was the one to get lynched, then Eth0s would still get townie cred once JV flipped red and try to push the "JV/Uncr S/S" angle that he said was the easy solve.

I AGREE MORE AFTER THIS REREAD AAAAHHHH

JV has done well with his reactions towards other players, but I think that's part of his playstyle. I already exposed his weak attempt at bussing on D2 when he randomly threw Eth0s in as part of his scumteam on D2 with Fuz with practically no reasoning behind it, since that would allow JV/Eth0s to conflict on D3 and in the event that one of them got lynched and not me, give them an easier time in D4 to win during lylo since one of them would look more town.

WHERE'S MY FIRE EMOJI THIS IS HOW I FEEL

unless uncrowned just accidentally got under my skin somethin fierce he's just correct

[Micc]

I'm removing this from my bookmarks. You may make it public and link it in the thread if you wish. PM me if you have any questions.