Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Gamma Emerald]

top tho

[Mathdino]

Gamma, the point of outsourcing the vig to the town is that we don't have vigs who go off and
A. Shoot their own vanity scumreads
B. Policy-vig the jailkeeper or backup rolecop

We have a claim from pintu already. He's a VT. It would be incredibly dangerous to shoot someone else at this rate.

Plus, I'm lynching him tomorrow if he's not already dead. We had enough votes to lynch him, and the wagon comp was basically identical to Anen's wagon.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm still saying Pin is obvtown imo. If you can demonstrate how his paranoia of me comes from scum I'll give in but on no other terms will I do so.

[TheGoldenParadox]

you really are completely out of the loop dude

re: claims: Scum optimal strategy is to claim jailkeeper as they're being run up so they can get the actual JK to counterclaim.
The fact that I'm saying "HEY GUYS SCUM WILL CLAIM JAILKEEPER" is actually beneficial for us, because it makes it more likely scum will do the suboptimal choice and claim VT (not outing any PRs).

re: vote switch: The whole point is that we run one person up, get a claim, then run another person up, and actually lynch them.
Pintu's getting vigged tonight. I still think he's scum. Now we need another suspect.

But you literally JUST TOLD jk not to counterclaim, so the "suboptimal" strategy, claiming VT, isn't suboptimal anymore. Why couldn't you have waited until after the claim to say this?

Can we all agree to hypothetically vig pintu tonight?

I know that if I'm a vig, I'm doing it.

Hypothetically, sure.

Can we realize that Pin said "for now," which is actually quite scummy?

I think he meant "for now" as in all he is doing 'for now' is claiming VT. I doubt he's going to come back and claim something else

true true I take that back

Also, I'd be more comfortable lynching Anen after Pintu's flip.

[Mathdino]

But you literally JUST TOLD jk not to counterclaim, so the "suboptimal" strategy, claiming VT, isn't suboptimal anymore. Why couldn't you have waited until after the claim to say this?

Because I didn't want to wait for scum-him to say "I'M A JAILKEEPER GUYS" and watch the real jailkeeper immediately counterclaim.

If scum decides to claim VT, all the better for us. We can just lynch them.

[Gamma Emerald]

Finally getting around to mutant devle's wall of "unanswered questions"
1) 38+39 I responded to Math in 202, ok |

I never said you didn't respond to this. I said you didn't respond until math called you out for not responding. Huge difference.

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2) 204 I'm pretty sure I responded to Math's response by telling him I still didn't see it? |

Yes but you never pursued it which indicates a lack of care.

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3) post=#9992930]209[/post] that was clearly answered by jmo stating it was to get the game going. I should have stated that but I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions. |

Because you don't care. Besides, jmo never explicitly states this is the reason.

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4) 236 also got answered, I think jmo pointed it out? |

Ahh yes fair enough.

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5) 249 wasn't actually a question; it was a jab at A50 because I wanted him to not have an excuse to lurk away.
6) 257's response kinda got lost in the wall. However my general response can be seen in how I reacted to the two votes on me from Anen and whoever else voted me that time frame. |

Saying "chill the fuck out" is hardly engagement with a convertsation though IMO.

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7) 270 I'm gonna address this later |

Umm okay... but my point will still stand that you didn't originally care about the answer.

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8) 271 honestly he already answered in 152, so eh. Didn't note it though so it's a fair cop
9) 283 what the fuck? I'm fairly certain Luca responded. Infact I checked and it's

the next post

. I don't think you actually care about looking for the resolutions, you're just trying to sling mud at me any way you can. |

My bad, I appologise for that point.

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10) 292 wasn't exactly responding to a serious comment so why should I be hounding down an answer? This is a

very questionable

poke as it's not even caring about context of the question at all. And also Mathdino answered so

again

, not caring for the truth, just wants his lynch. Keep on going Manfred. |

This one I missed because of the way I was checking if the questions were answered as I was using CTRL+F to search for the post numbers as a reponse. Since he did not quote your post, I missed his response. Though that's my fault for not reading the next few posts after your question to see if such situation had occured.

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11) 343 I forgot about that. This is the second question that Jay hasn't answered (270 was the first) and again I'm not finding any issues with your point here, but this also raises concerns about Jay.

@Jay:

why the fuck haven't you been answering my questions? |

Why haven't you been pursuing them? Obviously Jay ins't any better for not answering but your lack of pursuing shows a lack of care.

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12) 370 was rhetorical in a sense. The point was to get people to reconsider their reads on jmo, if they did so why should I care how they respond, they're fixing their reads. |

Fair enough - my bias against you made me assume it wasn't supposed to be rhetorical. That's actually kinda townie.

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13) 378 was me poking Creature for content. If he doesn't respond it's not really my burden to drag him into the thread and beat the answers out of him. |

But why ask him for reads if you don't actually care? Whether not he is posting isn't your burden either. (Unless you are scum buddies and you are trying to encourage him to avoid falling into his scum meta).

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14) 434 I didn't pursue this because I realized my question was stupid, he was already pretty open about it
15) 596 wasn't as much a sorting question as much as me being pissed someone said I was "in my own world". I'd already kinda made up my mind it looked like discrediting.
16) 604 lmfao what a shitty way to end your wall bro. No one responded so I felt like it was clear and everyone was just not bothering to state it specifically. |

That's a low effort assumption IMO (though it's clear I can hardly criticise for making assumptions).

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17) And for the little closer about how you were "skimming": yeah fuck no, no way you miss a response on post afterward with the way you started this. |

I mean, did I not say I started skim-reading specifically at the end because I felt I was becoming repetitive?

| You're fucking scum. Also I'm gonna do some historical reading cos I remember this same exact push being done on me before and idr which alignment it was. But until then bye bye. |

Well if this kind of push has happened to you before then maybe the issue lies within your playstyle?

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VOTE: mutantdevle
I was having doubts about him but this made me not care about those doubts

Obviously, my wall was overkill. But that's just how I tunnel (and kinda the point of doing so). My main point within all these points is that you don't fully care about responses to your questions which would suggest the answers don't matter to you too much because you don't need to sort people. Sure, you do pursue a few points here and there and sometimes your questions get answered so you don't need to but there are many examples where you have a lack of follow through and that's scummy.

First off what the fuck? You are

aware

you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew.
1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then
2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have?
3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true.
5) no thoughts?
6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent.
10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread?
11) Since I forgot I asked those questions.
12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias?
13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town.
15) No thoughts either?
16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

[Mathdino]

please stop this

gamma, look the point regarding pintu is he's basically going to get lynched tomorrow if he's not vigged, regardless of whether or not you townread him

you don't have a good enough towncase on him here

would you prefer the idea of vigging aneninen and lynching pintu

[Gamma Emerald]

Nope not giving this up until you can give a very good reason why that point is wrong
If he gets lynched tomorrow with no one ever having given a counter to my towncase on pintu that whole wagon should get nuked anyway
And no I don't want pintu eliminated by any town means

[Mathdino]

the point of removing him is that we're in evens, he's already claimed, and leaving him alive is a lylo liability

we literally already had the votes to hammer him; if there were no vig, he'd be fuckin dead

are you okay with a aneninen vig

[Gamma Emerald]

Really? who all did you have to lynch him? How is leaving Pin to lylo a liability?
And the idea of Anen being vigged I'm mildly against but not as much as a pin lynch/vig

[Almost50]

Can we all agree to hypothetically vig pintu tonight?

I know that if I'm a vig, I'm doing it.

Ditto!

[Almost50]

I'm not okay with vigging pintu and I will hella oppose that action

Would you rather be shot in his stead?

[Gamma Emerald]

No? Why are you asking that?

[Almost50]

No? Why are you asking that?

So you're not 100% on him (as you obviously should be on yourself), and thus you need to be a good team player and accept the fact nobody hard TRs pintu like you do.

[mutantdevle]

First off what the fuck? You are aware you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew. |

You were phrasing tunnelling as though it was a bad thing so I looked it up on the wiki and I realise I've been using the term wrong. By tunnelling, I simply mean a hard push that you kinda go all out to do. I don't mean to apply any arrogance or confirmation bias behind my case on you.

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1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then |

And my point is that this shows a lack of care or purpose within your question as you had no intention to sort with it.

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2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have? |

Well if you feel like you have the answers you wanted then there would be no need, but you said you didn't see his response and math never pointed you to it. So I don't see how you could have been satisfied with an answer?

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3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true. |

"I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions." - because you don't care about the responses to the questions in the first place. Hence it's pointless you asking them and you're only doing so to look busy. As for Jmo, if he didn't actually say it, how do you know it is true?

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5) no thoughts? |

Well if it wasn't actually a question then obviously my point about you not pursuing an answer to it doesn't stand...

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6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent. |

I'd argue that someone who is somehow attentive 100% of the time is more suspicious.

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10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread? |

CTRL-f'ing saves quite a bit of time to easily find what you are looking for but yes, I should have read more of the context around each question.

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11) Since I forgot I asked those questions. |

Why? If you truly cared about getting reads from your questions then you shouldn't just be forgetting about them.

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12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias? |

Anyone who tries to deny they are biased in any way is just not wanting to admit it. As humans, we are naturally biased in many different things based on our own opinions and experiences. Whilst we can suppress our own bias, we cannot ignore that it exists. In this specific context, I scum read you. And because I scum read you I'm naturally going to criticise more of what you say and view the things you do as scum. Everyone in mafia does this with both town and scum reads. By admitting that bias is a factor it allows people to more easily follow my train of thought.

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13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town. |

So you didn't care about the actual reads you just wanted to see if his activity picked up and then used that as a basis of your read on him? May I also ask what your read currently is on Creature? (I can't remember if you've said this recently).

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15) No thoughts either? |

Again, if it wasn't actually a question then obviously you didn't need to pursue it.

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16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. |

Well obviously it looks bad. It was a mistake and I admit that. We're all prone to human error which is what that was. Unless you're trying to argue that I blatantly ignored that response in an attempt to misrepresent you in a wall that was only directed at you to read when having 1 less point in that wall would barely have made a difference?

| And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

[Mathdino]

please stop this

no one is reading this shit

if you have cases on each other present them to the rest of the class

[Almost50]

First off what the fuck? You are aware you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew. |

You were phrasing tunnelling as though it was a bad thing so I looked it up on the wiki and I realise I've been using the term wrong. By tunnelling, I simply mean a hard push that you kinda go all out to do. I don't mean to apply any arrogance or confirmation bias behind my case on you.

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1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then |

And my point is that this shows a lack of care or purpose within your question as you had no intention to sort with it.

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2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have? |

Well if you feel like you have the answers you wanted then there would be no need, but you said you didn't see his response and math never pointed you to it. So I don't see how you could have been satisfied with an answer?

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3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true. |

"I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions." - because you don't care about the responses to the questions in the first place. Hence it's pointless you asking them and you're only doing so to look busy. As for Jmo, if he didn't actually say it, how do you know it is true?

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5) no thoughts? |

Well if it wasn't actually a question then obviously my point about you not pursuing an answer to it doesn't stand...

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6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent. |

I'd argue that someone who is somehow attentive 100% of the time is more suspicious.

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10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread? |

CTRL-f'ing saves quite a bit of time to easily find what you are looking for but yes, I should have read more of the context around each question.

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11) Since I forgot I asked those questions. |

Why? If you truly cared about getting reads from your questions then you shouldn't just be forgetting about them.

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12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias? |

Anyone who tries to deny they are biased in any way is just not wanting to admit it. As humans, we are naturally biased in many different things based on our own opinions and experiences. Whilst we can suppress our own bias, we cannot ignore that it exists. In this specific context, I scum read you. And because I scum read you I'm naturally going to criticise more of what you say and view the things you do as scum. Everyone in mafia does this with both town and scum reads. By admitting that bias is a factor it allows people to more easily follow my train of thought.

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13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town. |

So you didn't care about the actual reads you just wanted to see if his activity picked up and then used that as a basis of your read on him? May I also ask what your read currently is on Creature? (I can't remember if you've said this recently).

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15) No thoughts either? |

Again, if it wasn't actually a question then obviously you didn't need to pursue it.

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16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. |

Well obviously it looks bad. It was a mistake and I admit that. We're all prone to human error which is what that was. Unless you're trying to argue that I blatantly ignored that response in an attempt to misrepresent you in a wall that was only directed at you to read when having 1 less point in that wall would barely have made a difference?

| And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

[mutantdevle]

If you want me to summarise my case on Gamma then I can if you want me to but I feel like pushing Gamma again now would distract from the situation at hand. I'm happy with the 2 lynch options with have at the moment.

You can read our discussion if you want to but you don't have to. My points against Gamma are woven throughout the things I am saying but I'm mostly just replying to his questions (often with more questions).

[Almost50]

If you want me to summarise my case on Gamma then I can if you want me to but I feel like pushing Gamma again now would distract from the situation at hand. I'm happy with the 2 lynch options with have at the moment.

You can read our discussion if you want to but you don't have to. My points against Gamma are woven throughout the things I am saying but I'm mostly just replying to his questions (often with more questions).

I'm not interested in a case on Gamma. I just want wanted to tell you not to wall-quote, but I obviously failed to convey my idea properly.

[Gamma Emerald]

No? Why are you asking that?

So you're not 100% on him (as you obviously should be on yourself), and thus you need to be a good team player and accept the fact nobody hard TRs pintu like you do.

Well they should if they're properly analyzing his play. Same question to you: how is Pin's paranoia of me not explicitly towny?

[Creature]

I prefer pintu lynch over Anen.

[mutantdevle]

If you want me to summarise my case on Gamma then I can if you want me to but I feel like pushing Gamma again now would distract from the situation at hand. I'm happy with the 2 lynch options with have at the moment.

You can read our discussion if you want to but you don't have to. My points against Gamma are woven throughout the things I am saying but I'm mostly just replying to his questions (often with more questions).

I'm not interested in a case on Gamma. I just want wanted to tell you not to wall-quote, but I obviously failed to convey my idea properly.

That was mainly a response to Math but I'm lazy when it comes to pedits.

[Gamma Emerald]

okay mutant please try that again but don't respond in line, use the numbers I used and respond to each number in order. With the previous post it was okay cos there was other content to the post but that's just an empty quote when the in-line responses are removed.

[Mathdino]

I prefer pintu lynch over Anen.

The point is that we have two lynches. We've already "lynched" pintu by agreeing to vig him (hoping that Gamma isn't the vig of course). Now we have a second one, which will be the official lynch.

Vote Anennnn

[mutantdevle]

Spoiler: Better?

First off what the fuck? You are aware you're tunneled but you don't care to fix that? That feels like you're just saying you're tunneled to look towny. Major league ew.
1) Well I wasn't really conscious of the response until then
2) Well I believe I got the answers anyway so why should I have?
3) what is because I don't care? And just because it wasn't explicitly stated doesn't make it not true.
5) no thoughts?
6) But it's still a response, so meh
7) ...
9) I'm sorry but I'm not going to forgive you just because you apologize. Since you were clearly paying attention to earlier things this one comes off as very inconsistent.
10) how about instead of ctrl-f'ing for those you read the thread?
11) Since I forgot I asked those questions.
12) Alright. Though again why are you so okay with having bias?
13) I wanted reads cos if he can't make reads then he very probscum. Whether he's posting isn't my burden after that poke because I'm trying to get content out of him politely. And my intent was to get him to town up if he was town.
15) No thoughts either?
16) eh okay then. And also I think I should have pushed it more cos if I did we wouldn't be in this idiotic gamestate
17) As I said, it's kinda a bad look when you miss a response one post after like you did. And yeah it's a playstyle issue but that doesn't mean something can't be a common scum push. The player Twoinamillion has a meta of being pushed by scum as town for his playstyle.

0) You were phrasing tunnelling as though it was a bad thing so I looked it up on the wiki and I realise I've been using the term wrong. By tunnelling, I simply mean a hard push that you kinda go all out to do. I don't mean to apply any arrogance or confirmation bias behind my case on you.
1) And my point is that this shows a lack of care or purpose within your question as you had no intention to sort with it.
2) Well if you feel like you have the answers you wanted then there would be no need, but you said you didn't see his response and math never pointed you to it. So I don't see how you could have been satisfied with an answer?
3) "I don't really think it's necessary to tie off loose questions." - because you don't care about the responses to the questions in the first place. Hence it's pointless you asking them and you're only doing so to look busy. As for Jmo, if he didn't actually say it, how do you know it is true?
5) Well if it wasn't actually a question then obviously my point about you not pursuing an answer to it doesn't stand...
9) I'd argue that someone who is somehow attentive 100% of the time is more suspicious.
10) CTRL-f'ing saves quite a bit of time to easily find what you are looking for but yes, I should have read more of the context around each question.
11) Why? If you truly cared about getting reads from your questions then you shouldn't just be forgetting about them.
12) Anyone who tries to deny they are biased in any way is just not wanting to admit it. As humans, we are naturally biased in many different things based on our own opinions and experiences. Whilst we can suppress our own bias, we cannot ignore that it exists. In this specific context, I scum read you. And because I scum read you I'm naturally going to criticise more of what you say and view the things you do as scum. Everyone in mafia does this with both town and scum reads. By admitting that bias is a factor it allows people to more easily follow my train of thought.
13) So you didn't care about the actual reads you just wanted to see if his activity picked up and then used that as a basis of your read on him? May I also ask what your read currently is on Creature? (I can't remember if you've said this recently).
15) Again, if it wasn't actually a question then obviously you didn't need to pursue it.
17) Well obviously it looks bad. It was a mistake and I admit that. We're all prone to human error which is what that was. Unless you're trying to argue that I blatantly ignored that response in an attempt to misrepresent you in a wall that was only directed at you to read when having 1 less point in that wall would barely have made a difference?