VARSOON VARIETY HOUR : GAME SCRAPPED

[Chara]

hello everyone! i'm very excited. nice to see you all. <3

[Chara]

Mark, that was a joke.
why's mastina town?

and did you miss where she said she misinterpreted, and the voting thing no longer applies? this is also to beeboy.

[Chara]

you're asking if you can vote without really voting, despite mastina's very plain call to disregard what she said after clarifying with Varsoon. it's fine if you missed it, i don't think the reaction there is especially AI.

the joke is beeboy didn't post a real card in the game he was going to use. there's nothing in the post that makes that look real. the cards varsoon gave us are altered from real cards and beeboy didn't bold his use of it. i normally wouldn't say anything but accusing him of being antitown over a meaningless flavour post in pregame is silly, wouldn't you say?

thanks for the answer on mastina.

pedit: i've played with beeboy. i didn't answer your question because beeboy didn't do anything weird or antitown.

[Chara]

@Chara Also interested in the fact you didn’t answer my beeboy question.

Has it played with beeboy before I wonder?

i feel like i was ignored here. :<

i'm a miller. i'll investigate as The End. thought about waiting until after pregame but there's really no reason not to claim now.

[Chara]

Then he goes onto ask what it is? The premise of not voting is inherently antitown I agree. However the implication that you shouldn’t claim why and beeboy didn’t ask why is what has me troubled. It seems like he is acting like he knows you are town then asks you to claim later? Why? What benefit is there to you full claiming when it is mentioned in the setup to well not do that.

there is nowhere beeboy says mastina should claim. where is he saying this? i checked his account and the hydra, did i miss it? (on phone, may have missed it.)

[Chara]

What made you feel ignored? You said a post was a joke and I am assessing that?

you never responded me directly. i was not really being serious when i said i felt i was ignored, though.

[Chara]

no. my goodness. beeboy said mastina forcing everyone to not vote can get to a point where it's antitown, so he gave mastina a time limit.

[Chara]

there is nowhere beeboy says mastina should claim. where is he saying this? i checked his account and the hydra, did i miss it? (on phone, may have missed it.)

ignore this, i did miss it. boo to me.

[Chara]

@Chara: I'm sad that you're a miller, and happy that you're a miller. Sad because now I need to be paranoid all game, happy because if I can get past my paranoia, I get to know you're on my side!

i sure hope i can be town with you two for once. :>

i'm happy to be a miller for a second time. it's a part of my ongoing crusade against policy miller lynches!

pedit: hey, beeboy? i think Mark is town. or, to be more accurate, i believe they believe this. they could still be scum who believes this, i suppose.

[Chara]

hey, let's everybody all claim how they get mana! that's a great idea.

[Chara]

not at all. Varsoon would have plainly called the game bastard if he was going to include a jester, not dance around it.

[Chara]

fuck

[Chara]

that's Yume.

[Chara]

while i completely understand Venmar's reasons for claiming if he is indeed town with what he

believes

to be a killer role, the fact is that if claiming how we all get mana would help the town coordinate to give everyone mana, this would not be a Varsoon game.

pedit: Venmar, there's a townblock because i'm so incredibly towny, all of the time, that my mere existence necessitates one so i might be in it.

[Chara]

Venmar: neither. Varsoon has an established meta of punishing claims, is what i'm saying.

[Chara]

hey, this argument is pointless, can we nix it. you're talking around each other. Mark's underlined bit means investigative roles to them, and his logic on this has been consistent. i don't think any more semantics are going to help.

[Chara]

he answered them earlier, you just didn't understand. much like he didn't understand you, earlier. he's also already answered your question in 204, let's see how long it takes that to be figured out, hurray!

[Chara]

like this isn't AI. maybe it is but i wouldn't know how to look at it. i hate reading it, not because it's noise (i really don't care about noise), but because i can see what both of you are trying to say. but there's no clear communication, just a series of misinterpretations. that's why it's taking pages and pages to explain simple things on, now, both fronts.

[Chara]

no one needs to apologize here, i'm sorry i made it seem like i was upset with either of you. just hoping to move things along.

[Chara]

Cerb: i checked with Varsoon about that already, am told i investigate as though i'm a member of The End specifically. meaning a gunsmith sees i can kill, a cop gets a red result, etc. apologies for not clarifying earlier.

and about Mark: i think he conflated the two in his head, from the implications in his posts that that's what he thought he was saying, even though he actually wasn't. i still don't think it's AI, but i do think any inconsistencies aren't because he's lying scum.

[Chara]

To my understanding, I have a very inconsistent way of acquiring mana. But primarily, two ways:

1) Not using my Planeswalker ability

2) I target someone with my Planeswalker ability. For 2 phases, I gain Mana the same way they would, and I gain their abilities. I can only do this once per dayphase.

I'm literally a temporary copy-cat.

i was......... kidding, Taly. did you miss my other posts on why claiming is anti-town?

[Chara]

it's not a blessing and a hindrance. it's just a hindrance.

[Chara]

it informs scum. it would be fine to claim later and confusion would easily be avoided that way.
anyway, it doesn't matter now.

this is my last, desperate call into an uncaring universe: please stop claiming, everyone.

[Chara]

i cannot make it any more

clear

that Varsoon is punishing claiming here. that's how he does things. he doesn't like massclaims.

[Chara]

Skybird, Creature, RR, Shinding D townread.

Maid Café should respond to 237. I love how she bashes OTM for not responding, yet doesn't answer herself.

Maid scumreading right now. Maybe lyncher - lynchee with OTM. That would be hilarious

why is Maki supposed to answer a question directed at beeboy?

unrelated to the above: i'm scumreading this.

[Chara]

Mark: memories? i believe i'm against claiming in all of my games where it's relevant.

[Chara]

ah, i thought you were making a vague meta point.
yes, that makes sense.

Taly did explain why they claimed, though.

pedit: i wouldn't really feel strongly about it. Taly hasn't done anything to be townread for.

[Chara]

i don't townread Maid Cafe.

[Chara]

Venmar, talk about why i'm town? mastina i'm not asking because i know exactly what her answer will be. the same is true for Mark.

[Chara]

however, i am more confident in my scumlean on chara. they are townsignalling without actually generating any content. Seems like a better LAMIST.

<3
so, i try to be useless early game but fail because i hate watching people argue in circles, somehow accrue a bunch of early townreads anyway, and finally someone notices!

[Chara]

hm.
i mean, to be perfectly honest, i don't think i've done a very good jpb at not towntelling. if you take out the massclaim posts and the posts regarding bee vs. Math, i still have solving content. it isn't as though it's my fault everyone keeps claiming, thus necessitating a repetition of obvious things.
:>

[Chara]

Oh the fact I don't have Chara as obv town yet makes it highly likely their scum btw but take that with a grain of salt
~Maki

<3 you Maki.

[Chara]

and that would be why i believe iconeum is scum.

[Chara]

could someone quote where Varsoon said roles were constructed before alignments so i can examine it for myself?
good point about outing an investigation.

Maki: sure, i might vote him. it looks like you're already making good on the whole "not buddying me" thing, though.

[Chara]

@Chara It should read the underlined.

thanks. and you can refer to me in the second person, it's ok. you won't explode.

[Chara]

Tibor hasn't done anything interesting to me, yet.

[Chara]

saying something makes sense isn't agreeing with it. i also said someone made sense earlier, and it was about either a scumping or a scumread on me. i think it was you, actually.

Gamma not posting isn't interesting until it becomes a pattern, (need more time) or you can show me Gamma scumgames where he avoids the thread.

[Chara]

Claiming also informs town, I'll add.

stop. full stop on this. no. bye. i'm putting my foot down.

[Chara]

VOTE: Iconeum

[Chara]

i already said i would vote there, Cerb. also called out the post i didn't like in my ISO.

[Chara]

Okay, so, if your scumread is unrelated to the bits about maid cafe, you're scumreading the slot based on the set of townreads. Elaborate? Make me feel what you feel. <3

isn't it more fun if i want you to figure it out? i want to see where this goes.
i do appreciate you going back to look, though. if there's a wagon i want players to sheep me on, that's when i'll start going in-depth.
i really didn't like Skybird's content posts either. i guess that's related to Iconeum's townlist. both slots actually have the same problems.

also scumleaning Tibor and Lumia. just a little.

weird game. i should be gathering townreads, not scumreads.

[Chara]

Varsoon: can you go ahead and make sure Almost knows this game has started? i miss him terribly.

[Chara]

Me: Taly directed a thing at you.
Maki: It's not meta.

well, now i'm curious.

[Chara]

Skybird: in what way is updating a signature for that request AI, at all?

[Chara]

...right. i knew that. because i received one. sorry about that.

also, i counterclaim Venmar's mana-farming method. wagon me instead.

[Chara]

Phos being Phos is unrelated to me being Phos. i don't see a problem.
Kiana: it/its or they/them, please, especially if what you're doing is defending my honour. :>

thanks for the answer, Sky.

Iconeum: in what way did you indicate that the question was for Maki? you're quoting beeboy and you used "you". i also just think that pointing out an instance of hypocrisy and calling it scumhunting is lazy.

and my Venmar counterclaim was a joke.

[Chara]

i'm saying that beeboy hasn't posted since 237, so he hasn't ignored anything.

[Chara]

i'm saying that beeboy hasn't posted since 237, so he hasn't ignored anything.

wait, he totally has now. i don't think he had by the first time i called that out, though. but god do i really not care anymore.

[Chara]

anyway. this next one's for you, Almost.

[Chara]

historically, a scum lynch on day 1 is actually worse for town. sometimes, it can work out wonderfully despite that. but for the most part, i'd call it bad. Maki knows what i mean.

therefore, seeing as my role powers up on town deaths, and a day 1 scum lynch is bad for town, i propose we collectively agree to lynch town. i know it sounds silly, but it makes sense. i hate seeing town do well on the first day only to tank every other.

VOTE: Mark

[Chara]

if you agree with the theory, then actively lynching scum is counterproductive.

[Chara]

if you look at games where scum is lynched on day 1, it often ends with a string of town lynches based on false associatives off of only one day of seeing that scum's interactions with their buddies. people downplay the value of information off of a town lynch, and overstate the information off of a scum lynch after only one day (as opposed to over two days, where it's more valuable.)
town also tends to relax after their first "victory" and either get overconfident, or lazy.

[Chara]

i don't support alt-outing, even if Mark keeps referencing meta. (including not liking my playstyle. how rude! :>)

pedit: what do you think of my theory, Venmar?

[Chara]

i did mention that a wagon on town is also productive, for me.

[Chara]

Also also another thing, but I wanna wait and see what everybody else has to say before I bring it up. <3

oh, but now i'm so curious.

[Chara]

people are confusing chara doing protown things with it meaning they are more likely to be town. only reason i'm not going after them hard rn is that they were arguing with iconeum who has also been scummy and want to think about that more.

so, what does town do if not protown things? :>

[Chara]

Btw, I got a PM telling me my vote was stolen

how dare they.
(it wasn't me. probably.)

[Chara]

i'm so glad you feel that way.

[Chara]

i would guess the vote moves via privately messaging Varsoon.
but, as usual, your questions are quite thorough.

pedit: :<

Mark, is there a reason you enjoy swooping to my defense so valiantly?

[Chara]

i didn't respond to the Skybird one because it only became a pattern after you voted RR.

and i look forward to the case!

[Chara]

wait, you don't think i'm scum, so you're just disappointed in me as a

player

?

[Chara]

Chara, I know you put a smiley thingie at the end of that post, so I know it was a tongue in cheek response, but it's SO unbearably bad and easily responded to that you even saying it disappointed me because you're better than that.

ouch. remind me to be more clear i'm joking next time. :<

i thought it was obvious considering i earlier said "let's purposely lynch town" like it was a great idea, but the amount of people who gave reasoned responses to me is sort of baffling.

[Chara]

i do hope you're joking, bee! :>

pedit: wait, i want to try something. Lumia, vote me?

[Chara]

PEdit: Maybe? Not sue if brass is onboard with that and I want his opinion on that. For all intents and purposes I want him to lead this hydra

it's not about reads, i'm simply attempting to stick it to beeboy.

pedit: beeboy, you make me so sad. why do you do this to me.

[Chara]

Idc I just need someone to vote me who currently has 0 votes on them.
Then I need to cross vote them.
Unless I am misreading my role pm.

~B

then just. wait until someone with no votes on them votes you. then vote them back. that's how i would do it.

scum knowing who has mana is bad. scum knowing how we get mana is bad. this is a Varsoon game.
will someone listen eventually? :<

[Chara]

CHARA I NEED MANA, WHAT DO YOU WANT ME TO SAY.

~B

something besides the Venmar strategy would be nice!!

[Chara]

There is no magic mechanic that enables you to steal someones mana and Varsoon is trying to stay true to the real game.
I have an idea about what happened to A50 but I won't talk about it.

I think everyone can gain mana more or less easily?

i'm not talking about stealing mana, i'm talking about informing scum nightkills, and scum power use.

and how Varsoon hates massclaims, explicitly warned us against flavour claims, etc.

maybe it means nothing. but i can

guarantee

Varsoon did not design this game so that it's a good idea for everyone to claim and coordinate mana stacking.

and this hasn't even touched on the fact i'm not townreading you, so why should i be giving you mana? :<

[Chara]

That's not really how I expect someone who town reads another to disregard what they are saying. The Titus/Kiana question was more an after thought but I was mainly trying to get a feel for Cerb. (And yes I'm calling the slot Cerb until Drixx pops in. Deal.)

i would argue that scum RR pays

more

attention to how they answer questions, not less.

[Chara]

I dunno people said this about mass claiming not breaking both GiF magical girl games and both got broken via mass claim if people went for it.

THIS ISN'T A GIF GAME, THIS IS A VARSOON GAME.

is that better? :>

[Chara]

as for the rest of your argument. fine. do what you like, you've already claimed, after all. i don't agree.

[Chara]

This is funny given our history
~Lumia

damn you a third time, then.

[Chara]

also. googled this.



i don't know anything about magic. are these cards fake, or non-tourney legal, or something?

[Chara]

So this is something I'm torn about. Mathematically, the majority of the game is town, therefore if you simply do everything to enable everyone's abilities, you're helping town more than scum on a per slot basis...but scum power is usually a lot worse for town than town power is for scum, because scum know where to aim...and by being so open about things, you're enhancing that disparity.

In short, idk what the right thing to do is, but if it involves ruining wagons as badly as the Venmar thing does, then it shouldn't be done, unless it's done super deliberately after we've come to a consensus on who the lynch for the day is.

Cerb. it also must be remembered that there could be specific scum powers to counter this exact thing.

i also

really

don't want to play a game where we have to spend half the day moving votes around to give everyone mana. why? players won't want to give mana to their scumreads. it takes a long while to rack up votes. people will be arguing about that instead of playing. inevitably, people will be hinting at their roles and claiming why they need mana or don't need mana.

[Chara]

There is no magic mechanic that enables you to steal someones mana and Varsoon is trying to stay true to the real game.

after looking some more, there are certainly cards that do this besides the ones i posted.

anyway. you're outed, it's done. let's not all follow along, though.

should i be townreading Maid Cafe for this? they were nullscum before but now i'm musing.

[Chara]

definitely not thinking about townreading you for having a role, bee.

[Chara]

ask questions when you're caught up, Gamma. <3

[Chara]

FYI it’s public info my main got outed since the micro finished.

I am MathBlade aka Roundabout on MU. I am alting to improve my play on MS and take some MU things that work here and because I wanna have an account separate the more I go on a life journey. Since it’s public knowledge on MU I don’t think it’s fair not to announce it here but I was hoping that micro would last a bit longer damn.

thought so!
nice to see you, Math.

[Chara]

have you seen scum Almost, Venmar?

[Chara]

He is undercontributing but the pattern doesn’t match town him or scum him.

Math is right.

[Chara]

sorry, i meant Mark.

[Chara]

Yeah I can’t shake the feeling Tibor/Lumia is scum.

Chara would love your opinions

i don't like the Almost vote.

Venmar, by contrast, looks for players with Almost meta, while Tibor makes the vote despite limited experience.

though my eyes are also on Skybird and the random/Shiro hydra (the name escapes me) talking about their scumread on me (moreso the latter) but not taking action.

so i don't know if i'm favouring the "holding their vote" side or the "going ahead with scumread a bit too quickly" side. maybe i dislike both.

[Chara]

i'd love to know whoever took Almost's vote, because if they know him they know how much he hates that. i would like him to prove he doesn't have it, though.

[Chara]

so far; Skybird's scumread on me is my favourite. i didn't think anyone would actually be bold enough to call that a scum gambit, as though i

actually

believed someone would go along with that.

[Chara]

no questions for Chara, Cerb? (this is not a serious post, i just want to chat.)

there, now i'm being very explicit. or should i keep making sarcastic posts and see who believes me and who doesn't? :>

[Chara]

Do you have any controversial opinions, or ones that, based on your knowledge of me, I wouldn't find to be sufficiently justified with what you've posted in the thread so far, so I can ask you about them?

no, not really.
i actually don't know what i expected. good chat. <3

pedit: can i answer this one too!

[Chara]

my answer is different for grand themes like this one and for regular closed setups. (like normals, the more simple mini themes, etc.)

regular closed setups: how players use their roles and who's making it clear they're town.

grand themes: what knowledge the scum has about the setup that town does not, and how they use it.

[Chara]

What is the spiciest read that you guys currently have?
Confidence doesn't really matter I am just curious.

~B

my spiciest read is my scumread on you two.

[Chara]

Is it knowing how mana can be generated?
Is it knowing what different cards can do?
Is it knowing what factionals scum have?
Is it knowing what abilities players might have?

factionals.

[Chara]

I did not read it as a joke. U seemed pretty serious to me. Did u not see the responses? Of course you did. U commented on them.

i was playing along on purpose.

i believe in the theory, but purposely lynching town is definitely ridiculous.

pedit: haha.

[Chara]

it was. i'd say there was a behind the scenes miscount. :>

[Chara]

So what exactly happened here?

Anyone can answer this?

it was answered. nothing happened as far as i know.

[Chara]

VOTE: Skybird

[Chara]

wow. does Varsoon hate you?

[Chara]

i feel like i've answered this already. <3

alignment investigations return The End. i would call it universal as gunsmiths also see me as having a killing ability, but Varsoon wasn't explicit about that and said yes to a hypothetical gunsmith with that power. i don't know how it would interact with spells and such. but i am assured they all treat me as though my alignment was The End.
does that help?

[Chara]

@Chara: I just want to make sure it's firmly on the record exactly what abilities etc should return a negative result on you, so in case you are actually scum fake claiming miller because you know in Varsoon games there can be multiple millers and therefore the fake claim isn't particularly risky, people know *what*, if any, results they can trust on you.

-Cerb

pedit:@MC: You probably have the coolest spells.

tracker and watcher types shouldn't get any sort of fabricated result from me. you can trust those. but if you're unsure, better to be safe. i remember Undertale where a miller returned as having a killing ability because a hider would have died on them.
come to think of it, i haven't asked if i would kill a hider. i'll do that, but right now i would assume i would, seeing as i'm treated as scum.

pedit: i'd call it a passive ability. if Taly copied all my abilities, Taly would also be a miller.

[Chara]

and no, there's no explicit label to my role. it's worded how i stated it before. my role PM doesn't say "miller".

[Chara]

post you quoted literally says "i'll do that."

[Chara]

why are we sacrificing Taly to check me in the first place? i don't need to be towncleared, i don't get mislynched. sure, it works if i'm lying, and lynching Taly to catch scum me would be fine, but if Taly claims i'm lying, you should lynch

me

.

or we could simply play the game.

[Chara]

i don't want to be towncleared. in fact i was happy to be miller because it meant i couldn't be. it's like drawing a reverse IC.

[Chara]

All alignments were generated AFTER roles were created.

It won't clear you so your good!

~B

Varsoon: does this refer to roles as in our Planeswalkers, or roles as in all of our abilities? as in, alignment has no bearing on flavour, and alignment also has no bearing on abilities?

forgot to ask that one earlier.

[Chara]

Shall we vote on the Mark so he omguses one of us so he is remembered? That will start setting up Maid to get their vote back.

oh, right.
is that how it works?
i hate being made to jump through hoops, but there's no reason for Maid to not have their vote. have they proved they don't have it?

[Chara]

Hrm.... Chara you got anything to do other than talking about being a miller?

pffffftahahaha. really Snarky?

[Chara]

then no, i don't much feel like giving Maid Cafe mana.
also, i want to know how Maki is reading me. <3

[Chara]

by that logic, we should give everyone mana because they're all more likely to be town than scum.

[Chara]

thank you for the clarification!

[Chara]

Cerb: i'm doing something i've never done before in this game. and i apologize for this. deeply. though if you're scum, consider that null and void.

i'm disappointed, because i did it mostly because Almost was here. but between not having his vote and his disinterest, it might not matter.

[Chara]

turning this game into a public role-planning fest the

fastest

way to kill most of the fun i was planning to have. not to mention that isn't how Varsoon does things.

[Chara]

i wonder if this is a sign of Mathblade and i finally being able to work

together

. i want to believe it's so.

[Chara]

:>!!!

ok, my apology to Cerb now extends to Mathblade.

[Chara]

sure.
i'm putting myself to a test. and doing what i think is best for town, but in a way that might be rather anti-town. it's difficult, because i'm so used to doing what i think is best for cohesion, always. putting it another way, i'm taking advice from both Ellibereth and Almost and creating a sort of hellish synthesis.
number one goal is always to lynch scum and win, though. i'm not trying to step on toes, and attempting to play in such a way that i don't do that.

Varsoon gave me a role PM that was useless to me as i usually play. i might as well have been a VT. so i decided to try and do something different instead of doing what i normally would.

well, that was fun.

who wants to talk about Snarky's entrance? i laughed.

pedit: then i propose we all wagon Venmar and make him the second largest wagon. oh, wait...

[Chara]

i think i've probably already succeeded.
and i've pretty much changed my mind. this was a fun experiment, but it's too stressful for me. i freak out when scumread to the point i consistently obvtown myself. i can't imagine doing this all game and actually getting somewhere.
everything i've said seriously or joked about regarding my role has been a lie. i'm no flavour of miller. any alignment check on me will return town.

pedit: there's your reason.

[Chara]

i know you are. that's why i apologized earlier and decided to come come clean now.

[Chara]

i have to get going, but: Cerb, i understand if you're upset with me. please understand that i wasn't just dicking around, and i am completely cognizant of how scummy the timing of my claim retraction was.

pedit: Mark, you had me figured as a liar, or as scum?

[Chara]

i'm so sad Almost wasn't caught up before this happened.

on the bright side, he catches up and posts as he goes, so we'll have his real-time reactions anyway!

pedit: roles not indicating alignment doesn't mean a miller not possible, for what it's worth. it just means the role would be redundant is scum hands.

[Chara]

I mean your claim wasn't possible.
I kinda just wanted to see what happened if I attempted to force a rolecop on you.

~B

and what did you get out of that?

[Chara]

oh. to be fair, i didn't realize that was a question.

i don't want to answer this question, i'm sorry. i can explain why i did it?
for one, i wasn't going to accidentally force out any claims via making the claim i did, because it's negative utility. for two, it was relatively low-risk. it doesn't screw with town's actions in a way that would hurt town.
and three: i'm very confident in my ability to not be lynched.

[Chara]

Why didn't you retract sooner?
What did you hope to gain by temporarily holding onto the claim?

~B

the longer i held onto it, the more extreme the result. if i'd retracted earlier, i don't think anyone would have cared. it certainly wouldn't have told me anything.

what was the scum reaction?

[Chara]

What would you say if I told you your claim already hurt towns(my) actions, and you were 100% going to be lynched today as of 30 minutes ago?

-Cerb

then i fucked up.
what, did you submit an unstoppable gladiate on me without waiting for my explanation?

[Chara]

Cerb, if you submitted a kill on me (or whatever) because i lied, the onus is on you for having an itchy trigger finger and for doing that without having any concept that i might have a reason for what i did.

i didn't fake a guilty. i lied and then retracted in the span of maybe three rl days.

[Chara]

I don't think it's on Cerb if he truly wasted an action on you. Like when I got vigged as a cop it wasn't on the vig it was on me.

~B

no, you're probably right about that.

[Chara]

god, alright. this is making me sick. i'd rather lose this stupid game than have Cerb this pissed at me. i didn't know, i'm sorry, i won't do it again, fuck whatever reason i had for doing it.

RR, Mark, are town. highest confidence is RR town. Tibor/Skybird/Iconeum are scummy. no reads anywhere else at the moment.

[Chara]

Sorry but even though I'm not caught up I have a couple questions.
1) why did you fakeclaim Venmar's role?
2) why did you recant your desire to lynch town today and call those who took it seriously scum (brass informed me about this one)?
~Lumia

1) no real reason. it was a joke. i'm not lying anymore even as a joke.
2) also facetious. lynching town on purpose fucks up the game enough that it doesn't help to solve it at all. i'm not scumreading every player who took me seriously, Skybird's reaction just stood out, and i was scumleaning her already.

pedit: considering it.

[Chara]

it's ok Cerb, you don't have to apologize for that.

pedit: don't blame him for that, that's on me. and this is town Cerb as far as i can tell.

[Chara]

and i'm fine. apologies for getting emotional. i really don't like to do that.
let's just play the game, sorry everyone.

[Chara]

i had you nullscum. you're now at null, but after this post i'll call you hesitant town.

pedit: above is to bee. and true, i did need to get going. let's talk later.

i'm really very disappointed in myself. not for the fakeclaim, if that bites me in the ass later so be it, i knew that going in. mainly that i did the "emotional Chara" thing that i hate to play around with

other

players, let alone enact myself!

[Chara]

you mean, you think your role was designed in such a way that Varsoon didn't want you to claim and artificially farm mana, but rather to do so naturally?
or do you mean something else?

pedit: i'm coming around to wanting to give them mana too. but i'd really like to see more of Maki this game so i can get a better idea of their alignment.

[Chara]

gonna have to make sure you die before Lylo then.
~Maki

no need for this. i understand Cerb's worries, but that won't happen.

[Chara]

Can I just pretend the group of people below are all IC's, and go from there? Anybody think that leads to a loss a significant percentage of the time?

OnTheMark
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Chara
Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)
Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)

-Cerb

why is Baku in here?

also, you all suck for townreading me openly.

[Chara]

oh, excellent.

was it Maid Cafe's list that also had Baku in it? talk about that? :>

pedit: thank you, Cerb! haha.

[Chara]

Hugs? This has nothing to do with your read on me, I just want to comfort you.

i'm alright now, but i'll never turn down a hug from a player i like. <3

[Chara]

Creature keeps going like this and he's also locktown. hurray. let's flip scum this day 1, but also not screw up like my totally-legitimate theory says we could if we do hit scum.

[Chara]

Because no one seems to want to be an On The Mark follower.

i'm following you!

[Chara]

haven't managed to get a read on Bronya yet.

[Chara]

<3 hugs for Kiana too.
i'm busy, but i had time for that.

suppose i also have time for: i don't think Skybird knows my play or how i am as a player. i do think the way she reacted was possibly more naive (if scum, to think she can push this, if town, to think i was serious). their (Iconeum and Skybird's) interaction right after Iconeum votes me is something i might want to come back to.

[Chara]

thanks for reminding me of 669. i can't imagine a world where town actually agrees to lynch town on purpose. if Skybird thinks it was a scum gambit, i would thinkit would be because i want to look town by doing ridiculous things scum wouldn't say. not by actually, genuinely trying to get a majority on someone towny.

Kiana: are you townreading Mark?

[Chara]

i don't think you're tunneling, Mark. obviously, as i'm voting with you. this isn't even close to a derptunnel. what's Mark said that isn't legitimate, Kiana?

[Chara]

Iconeum doesn't feel like scum as i don't think they would look at the chorus of "Chara is obvtown for its dumb play" and say "but guys, i think you're ignoring all of the objectively scummy things". it's taking too much fire for an unpopular read, even if it does make sense.

[Chara]

I wouldnt say I am bending over backwards.
I can sum up the read in like 1 sentence "Dunn does more as scum".

It is a pretty simple idea all the other words just explain why i feel that way.

~B

i think this is true. i'd like to hear Maki's take on Dunnstral too.

[Chara]

i find this more distracting. especially when you're townreading Mark, Kiana.
i still think Skybird is scummy. so far her defenders have not actually interacted with any part of the

case

.

[Chara]

i don't really have a great case, come to think of it. the way Skybird talked about voting me but didn't do so,(weak) the way she responded to Iconeum's vote on me (just a bad feeling), etc. and Mark's quoted posts.
at the moment, my best bet for scum, but if you have something else i might listen.
Titus asked me about Iconeum, but of the two i like Iconeum's approach a little more, as i said.
beeboy keeps making me paranoid of Maid Cafe.

i don't care about the wagon enough to tell everyone to vote Skybird.

beeboy, why's baku town?

pedit: Kiana, can you stop saying things like that about Mathblade? i don't think it's helpful, and as someone who has had frustrating encounters with Mathblade myself, i don't think it's even warranted.

[Chara]

pedit: Agreed with Chara. I want OTM to connect with people. The current game state has them standing a bit outside of the consensus' forming, which sucks for everyone because OTM can be really friggin helpful.

Cerb, the game is like fuck, marry, kill, except it's with PR actions. and a way to discuss reads

i'm not sure saying who is obvtown is useful when they're not in danger of being lynched, though.

as for this, yes. Mark's great. not my style at all, but saying they're derptunneling or that they've gone off the deep end just seems unfair when they haven't done anything of the sort.

[Chara]

Iconeum doesn't feel like scum as i don't think they would look at the chorus of "Chara is obvtown for its dumb play" and say "but guys, i think you're ignoring all of the objectively scummy things". it's taking too much fire for an unpopular read, even if it does make sense.

players scumreading Iconeum, can you talk about this?

[Chara]

hey, i eventually realized RR was scum in SU2! ....even if it happened after i was dead and in a Crystal Gem bubble.

[Chara]

also, i am very, very confident in RR town. perhaps the reason is bad, but there you go!
and i will maintain that i read them correctly in Protomen, because i figured their wincon was town and

also

that they were lying. i just misinterpreted the setup. :>

[Chara]

This is part of why I don’t push RR. I disagree with you having seen Cerberus work in FFT but I am working in those parameters. If you genuinely said Bryona is town and meant it I wouldn’t push there either and just do Sky or munna.

unfortunately, i can't tell on Bryona yet, either.

on that note: guys, please sign? i know right now you're posting at different times, but if you start posting at the same time i'm going to be completely lost.

[Chara]

wait, they're already posting at the same time. well. :<

[Chara]

oh, Venmar's also joined the townlist.

[Chara]

also chara is scum caught in a gambit
skybird is lynch bait and ico possibly is as well but i'm not sure yet

it sucks that you vote Mark here instead of me. :>

[Chara]

also chara is scum caught in a gambit
skybird is lynch bait and ico possibly is as well but i'm not sure yet

it sucks that you vote Mark here instead of me. :>

[Chara]

i don't want you to vote me, i'm saying that you called me scum caught in a gambit, but said that Mark was either playing badly or scum. and chose to vote Mark. i think it's because half the game knows i'm obvtown.

[Chara]

nobody is listening to Mark but me.

[Chara]

actually, that's probably an exaggeration.

[Chara]

^^^^^that.

pedit: hm. above was at Cerb's post.

[Chara]

just what i was about to ask, Cerb!
good thing he didn't if he's town, though. talk about stepping in front of a loaded gun and dodging a bullet.
or maybe two loaded guns, if you count Taly.

[Chara]

Hrm.... Chara you got anything to do other than talking about being a miller?

you thought i was town here?

[Chara]

Almost, would you do me a favour and vote someone? just for one votecount if it pleases you. :>

[Chara]

i love how everyone took my cries to not be townread and then proceeded to publicly townread me

hard

.
thanks guys. /s :>

(but also <3)

[Chara]

oh look, mana-stealing abilities. knew it. :>

[Chara]

Who are the scum?

Tbh, I don't know. I am trying to sort Mark since they are screaming about Skybird but they refuse a basic readslist with small explanations do *shrug*. I am this close to prod dodging.

Titus, do me a favour and focus on any slot that isn't Mark? anyone at all?

[Chara]

i do, but i'm busy tonight. should be here to chat again tomorrow.

[Chara]

the more i think about baku and munna's "i'm paranoid you want me to vote you" and "Chara is scum hiding behind its gambit" and "i want to interact with Math and think the wagon has more worth than Chara" the more i want to lynch Baku and Munna. but you people are townreading them.

[Chara]

also, all of you suck for townreading me. because i know any of you who both know me and are scum aren't going to do anything but that. :>

[Chara]

So instead of trying to read your ISO, I'm going to either
A. wait until I see something that I can point to and say "OOH OOH! Yeah that's definitely {town/scum}"
or
B. wait till later in the game.

or believe me when i say they're town! :>

[Chara]

Chara's town enough that I'd place an innocent child below it on a readslist.

[Chara]

Fortunately, my goal is to lynch scum, not look town, so I don't give a damn about this and shall continue to call Skybird scum.

[Chara]

CHARA
TALK
TO
ME

I'M
GETTING
TO
IT

Micc isn't great. he could be lynched too.

[Chara]

a big part of how i do this is analyzing the approach of other players to my slot, so when players like Alisae come in and say i'm obvtown i don't know how to handle them. because e knows how terrible and stilted my scumplay ways (even if i'd gotten a bit better since), so it's not strange to see em townreading me. at the same time, this isn't even close to my town meta. i'm not even

attempting

to interact with my scumreads and being flighty and bubbly and emotional isn't really... something i consider difficult to fake.

[Chara]

Creature
OnTheMark
Reasonably Rational (Hydra: Cerberus v666 & Drixx)
Venmar
Almost50

Maid Cafe (Hydra: Maki & Beeboy)
Shining Dreamers (Hydra: Yume & Mastina)
Tibor and Lumia (Hydra: brassherald & Gamma Emerald)
Alisae
Dunnstral
Iconeum
SnarkySnowman
Bronya Zaychik (Hydra: Titus & Kiana Kaslana)

Skybird
Micc
Baku and Munna (Hydra: Randomidget & Shiro)

[Chara]

Nothing anywhere as far as I can tell indicates planes are in any way shape or form actually important.
And yet......

Varsoon's posts about the game?
them being the focus of one of his drop-downs about the setup?
that there may be bastard-esque elements of the game tied to the planes mechanic?

[Chara]

actually beeboy, i do want you to talk about what the scum response to you pressing for a rolecop would be.

like. if not to retract the wayward claim.

[Chara]

Being an asset involves you being helpful and transparent. You are currently not helpful and, maybe I wouldn't say not-transparent, but the way you're presenting your ideas is obfuscated.

this is silly. stop. i've seen enough games with Titus and Math together to be tired of this, and you aren't even Titus.
badgering a townread to play differently is a waste of time. this is taking up so many pages.
it's been

constant

. both Kiana and Titus replying to the same things, and so many posts from Mark because they reply back.

[Chara]

Oh, it's the Chara trick? It's the Chara trick, isn't it. Alright.

what's the Chara trick?

being vocal =/= being more readable to me.

[Chara]

Most people are not reading you as scum. The only people who are scumreading you are a grand total of two people, OntheMark and ShiningDreamers, who happen to be very vocal. Don't let them bully you. We will not stand for that. You have our full backing

what am i, chopped liver? :>

i'm not townreading Shining Dreamers either, but why are you so confident Skybird is town?

[Chara]

Hence I am trying just ignoring them because I know of nothing else to do. I am sorry if I hurt you or made the game unfun I just don’t know how to fix it when dead conversations get revived.

So mastina read what’s yours?

you haven't done anything to apologize for. my frustration lies with the way you're being singled out.

i don't have a good read on her. she needs to be caught up for me to tell. i've seen both mastina and Yume as both alignments but it's not helping me.

[Chara]

comparing Mathblade to RC is an insult to Mathblade. they're not going to do anything like that.

pedit: nope, the readslist i gave is genuine. is Bronya widely townread?

[Chara]

1865: i like this one from Skybird, too. the response to the case on her, i don't find it AI, just an effective explanation of what was going on there.
UNVOTE:
she needs to give more reads so i know she's actually town and not just avoiding the lynch.

[Chara]

Kiana: counting hydra heads as distinct players, i've played with 20 people in this game. i can't lock them in as either alignment just from that.
i haven't seen anything from either of you yet i want to engage on. Titus is a player that, historically, i have a bad time reading, and can really only say is town after we've had some sort of drawn-out dumb argument. and i don't want to do that. you, i've never seen as scum, and you're being influenced enough by Titus that i doubt meta is useful.

[Chara]

i just play too much mafia, haha. and no, i don't need anything from you right now. thanks for the answer on Skybird.

[Chara]

sick, will be here tonight hopefully.

[Chara]

"i disagree he sounds genuine" is actually a completely valid sentence, that could be optionally constructed as "i disagree that he sounds genuine".
"i disagree, he sounds genuine" has the opposite meaning. assuming there was no elimination of a comma in Creature's original post (entirely possible, the way some players post) it was not technically ambiguous.
:>

[Chara]

Creature doesn't think Micc sounds genuine.
i also haven't read, i was just here for semantics.

[Chara]

1.) Any actual miller in the game counterclaims and "best" case (for the fake claimer) is a 1-for-1 trade.
1a.) A town player doing this costs the town two days and uses up two mislynches. Fucking awful.
2.) There is no miller and said person gets to ride out the game assumed to be honest.
2a.) I don't believe the whole "Crusade against millers must be lynched before M/LYLO" explanation.

1) there's no bad case here. any miller should claim anyway. i would have retracted.
1a.) no mislynches. at most it would be me getting lynched, but that wouldn't happen.
2) this isn't an argument against town doing so, and i investigate as town so i can't ride out anything. :>
2a.) that wasn't my explanation for why i did it. i haven't explained why i did it.

[Chara]

where'd you get the impression i did it because of a meta-point, Drixx?
i did it because i wanted to be scumread. that's the reason. i decided that i wasn't going to be mislynched for it because scum buddy me and i can reliably obvtown to most kinds of players, so it seemed an alright risk to take. it's too bad your role-related question was wasted because of it, but i don't think the tradeoff was that bad.

[Chara]

Anyways, the part where you guys get involved is..........what do we ask next??? We have a question waiting to be used!

We have already asked questions about "Scum Factional Abilities", "Roles in the game", and "Mana Generation"

can you ask about scum involvement with plane selection, or do we already know they're responsible?

[Chara]

Protomen isn't comparable to a towngame of RR's for most of their meta. they were forced to hide things because they were an "anti-town faction". those quotes are important.
that's at Mark. i would say not to worry about them for now, the handling of me in particular got me this read, which sucks, but i'm rather confident in it.

pedit: for question 2, they asked it before i retracted.
for question 1, i also assume it was asked before that was revealed.
question 3: debatable, i think it was valuable to know.

[Chara]

i really hope the card drawn order is random, because that would be way more fun.

[Chara]

1.) I don't believe a retraction if you had been counterclaimed would have ended any way other than both miller claims being lynched. First you and then the miller before M/Lylo. That's 2 lynches used up from the available pool, no matter how you slice it. That has to be accounted for. We can't just assumed a steamroll victory, and a steamroll win is the only way we don't end up having to worry about running out of mislynches.

the second hypothetical miller being lynched before mylo/lylo wouldn't have been my fault after retracting. they would be the only miller claim, them being lynched later has nothing to do with whether or not i fakeclaimed. see point 2 for the rest.

2.) You seem awfully certain you won't get lynched despite taking an action that literally has no town utility. You still haven't given reasoning for why you did it. You just said "Nuh uh!" to the consequences I laid out.

i've never been mislynched. the only time it's happened was once, while hydraing with Almost, so it doesn't count as me being lynched. (especially when, as stated by multiple players, it was his actions that got us lynched. this isn't me shifting blame to you, Almost. you know what i mean. <3 )
so yes, i'm very confident.

3.) Varsoon strongly dislikes alignment cops. He has restricted our ability so it cannot be used to discern alignment (outside of someone playing very badly). There WAS a cop in Protomen, but that was a super unique setup with most of the game being survivors and then two small factions, one of which HAD to win quickly or become the enemy of the survivors. I don't recall any other alignment cop as a role in a Varsoon game, except maybe as a 1-shot ability (like the one we used on Titus in Protomen). Therefore it doesn't really budge the needle when you say that you would investigate as town because ... there's probably not an alignment cop.

i'm aware. if i'm aware that Varsoon doesn't like alignment cops, i'm aware that fakeclaiming miller doesn't actually do anything to make me less likely to be guiltied. i

did

also specify a gunsmith-type investigation would return an ability to kill.
though he did make a miller-type in SU2. that's what i modeled the fakeclaim after.

4.) Please do feel free to explain why you did it. The only possible reason I saw was you mentioning your crusade against millers being policy lynched.

well, i already answered this, i assume you just haven't read it yet.

[Chara]

Hey Chara, why did you think your miller claim would make you be scumread?

It's actually been my experience that miller claims do the exact opposite, barring counterclaims, unless you already have pressure on you.

-Cerb

they can do that if they're true. mine was a lie, so i figured it would be revealed as such eventually.

[Chara]

when the time came where i was actually under pressure, despite the real lack of a wagon i got scared of actually being mislynched, i retracted earlier than planned. i was going to do it at the end of the day. and at the time i was upset with myself for freaking out even though the pressure on was on purpose. i imagine Almost does that sort of thing (not necessarily fakeclaiming, but getting pressure in general) because he's much more calm under it.

[Chara]

Why did you reveal that it was a lie then? Given that your goal was for it to be revealed, and you to be scumread as a result, why preempt the usage of abilities to confirm that your claim was false? By preempting them, rather than letting town waste them as scum would have done, you negated any possible benefit from your play.

what? the reason i retracted before the rolecop was used so that it wouldn't be wasted on me. sure, if i was

scum

, i would let town waste them, but i don't want that. i felt terrible when you told me you'd wasted a power and how upset you were.

but the real reason is probably what i said in my last post: i don't do well under pressure. historically i pretty much freak out whenever i think i'll be lynched. so i preemptively retracted to avoid being "guiltied".

[Chara]

That's really not a very well thought out reason. That's it ... you just wanted to scum yourself up and didn't think through the potential consequences?

i thought it through! i just didn't account for day abilities that might be wasted on me, or something like a dayvig.
playing anti-town in another way seemed too damaging, purposefully lurking even more so, and most other fakeclaims might accidentally out a PR. so i went with a fake miller, because i knew where to get a fakeclaim source (SU2), i wouldn't accidentally out any town abilities besides another negative-utility (such as investigation-immune, who should really be claiming anyway), and also because i just like the role.

[Chara]

1) You fake claimed miller in order to be scumread, confident in your ability to keep from being lynched.
2) Upon being scumread, you freaked out, lost the aforementioned confidence, and immediately retracted the claim.

1) is correct. 2) is mostly correct. i was still confident about it, but there's only so much one can do against a straight guilty. and i figured claiming then would still be like i was "guiltied" (since my claim timing was pretty scummy in and of itself) but without the waste of the role-copy ability.
something i forgot to mention was i thought part of my role would clear me, but it was right then that beeboy helpfully reminded me roles have nothing to do with alignment. (i'd thought it was just flavour) so my safety net disappeared and i panicked.

[Chara]

@Chara: Is there any reason why scum!you, upon making a fake miller claim and being placed at risk of exposure, wouldn't behave the exact way you did in this game?

-Cerb

there's no reason! that's why i was confused about all of the townreads i got for it.

and in particular beeboy's "this wasn't the scum response i was looking for", which he still needs to elaborate on.

[Chara]

I mean, you've even said you're bad at scum before, and that was a bad idea.

-Cerb

if i was scum, it certainly would have been. i'm trying to improve my scumplay, though. the reason i'm bad as scum is because i can't give off that towny Chara vibe. and also i get too self-conscious and cautious.
though, throwing caution to the wind and doing something unbelievably stupid would be a pretty good way to get players like Almost, Maki, and Alisae to locktown me. (though Alisae wasn't here to start.)

pedit: sorry, Math. i would refuse to answer but i wanted to help Drixx out.

the biggest slot i want to talk about right now is baku and munna, but they haven't posted for a while and i'm waiting on that.

[Chara]

I mean ... you didn't give any of the anticipated responses I expected if you were scum. Not anything that makes me think town but also none of the things I thought of that would reinforce a scum read. As always, you are difficult to read early. Probably need to make the creature rule the Creature and Chara rule ;p

~D

<3

So let's move to the universe where you *do* gain scumreads from that gambit.

What do you do when you have just under half the game gunning for you, and unwilling to trust you? What's the town benefit?

-Cerb

hm. i have the answer to this one but it's a little awkward. i don't think i need to be trusted to do well, i suppose. there've been times i've purposely lead because i thought we would lose without my doing so (Purgatory), but for the most part i don't think it's a good idea for me to lead as i rarely have good scumreads i can reliably push or need to be followed on. there's more to it than just this, and i actually said so plainly earlier (i imagine you missed it because i was lying left and right up until the miller retraction), but i'd rather not be explicit.
i'm being open now because i reconsidered and thought it'd hurt your attempts to solve this game if you couldn't see a probable universe where i was town.

pedit: i agree, i'm being cooperative because i think this is important!

[Chara]

hello Cerb, i'm reading. don't have much to say right now. reading from where i've left off, not caught up on any of the hood things. was only posting to talk to Drixx and you earlier about your concerns.

[Chara]

and yes, enjoying the game, i'm down because of other things. hopefully tonight goes well. :>

[Chara]

i don't think Math's an idiot. i think we're going to work together this game and win, just as soon as i renew my motivation. (so, starting tomorrow.)

[Chara]

actually not sure how i managed to get behind here, when i thought i was reading every page. certainly an impressive pace. :<

i'm also scumreading mastina (i think she's firmly in her scum meta right now, though she could certainly still be town) but Alisae's play is giving me some worried vibes and i'm having a hard time managing to read em.

[Chara]

Yume not mentioned in the above post because i find mastina the easier head to read, not because they aren't both relevant. i don't know the difference between Yume's scumplay and townplay, but i don't find the part of Alisae's case that's related to Yume to be very convincing. the mastina half is ok.

i wish there was less yelling from that corner. it doesn't make things any easier to understand. and i didn't ask for the extra vote, i certainly would have said no to it if you'd asked first. :>