Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Bulbazak]

Going to answer this real quick:

How about an icebreaker question.

How much are you going to let your teams reads influence you or do you plan on going more solo?

I'm going to listen to my team mates when it comes to reads and such, and I will listen to their thoughts. However, I'll look at this game first when catching up, because otherwise we get what happened when I logged in today, and I see a ton of posts from Mastina about stuff in games without much context. So I'll probably do something along the order of {catch up with game>post>catch up with team PT>catch up with other games>reread team PT>repost in here if necessary based on PT content}.

Also, as an activity note, I post mostly from work and not as much as I used to from home. A normal work day will probably feature occasional bouts of posting when I'm at work (dependent on how busy I am), posting when I get home after catch up, and then posting sometime between 10-11 before I head to bed again. If not working, I'll be a bit more sporadic. I'm not the active user I used to be, and I'd prefer people don't spam the thread. My position on policy lynches have changed, as in I'm more for it now. I'm also going to try a bit of a more active catch up style, where the only difference will be that I'll stop to respond to something that I feel needs immediate attention during the catch up process. Mastina also tells me that I'm not exactly a people person, so I'm going to try to work on that a bit. So if I get heated later on and insult you or something, it's not personal.

Quick page 1 gut responses are that Skirt is scum and Math is town. I also got a ping on Key, but I'm not sure whether that is scum with an unnatural entrance or if he's just awkward. I'll come back to this once I'm fully caught up. For now, duty and lunch calls.

[Bulbazak]

Caught up, and Keychain is still kinda nebulous. I'm going to keep an eye there, but not interested in pushing that yet. I thought Elena might be panicking scum trying to squash Math's team analysis (which is actually relevant to Team Mafia). That seems like something I feel scum would do if events were turning against them. But then she did that reversal on LLD after much discussion, and I really can't see Elena-scum doing that, especially when keeping a vote on LLD would be so easy to do at this point in the game, and I really don't think LLD could apply enough pressure to turn the tides on Elena. At best, she'd get a LLD lynch, and at worse, she'd just look like hard headed town. There's really nothing to lose, so her changing her read is a town sign.

As for Skirt, he called me town before I even started posting, and then preceded to buddy up to me in subsequent posts. LLD has already pointed out how his entrance sounds fake, and Math has picked up on the discrepancy as well. He's tryharding, but in all the worst ways.

Vote Skirt skirt

[Bulbazak]

"As for Skirt, he called me town before I even started posting, and then preceded to buddy up to me in subsequent posts. LLD has already pointed out how his entrance sounds fake, and Math has picked up on the discrepancy as well. He's tryharding, but in all the worst ways."

Where did i call you town? Where did i buddy up to you? On what planet am I tryharding?

Spoiler: This is buddying

Bulbazak, From Queue Agents - good.php

I hadn't posted as of this point in the game, and I don't have any recollection of ever having played with you. This felt like you trying to preemptively get on my good side. Looking back on it, probably not a townread per se, but I don't think it was meant to come across as a scum read.

I would take scum if we rolled scum (lol we all rolled town I stg not that you know that) if we valued winning over everything because I have a significantly better scum wr than my team afaik, but I wouldn't if we were playing more socially and for fun.

I adamantly believe Keychain and Dunker are town off of this game, Radja I guess I agree. Bins from what I remember hates scum so yea that's fine too. Don't know CDB or T-Bone play-wise at all so no comment.

UCV... I guess.

No clue for bulba

. LLD, A50, Smoke, definitely realistic for scum. I haven't actually seen A50s scum game I don't think, but iirc Chara said A50 is their scummer?

Math pushes you on the last post and says that I'm good as scum. There is a slight backpedal here, I think, but you definitely didn't want to let go of that potential townread and buddying opportunity on my slot.

Caught up, and Keychain is still kinda nebulous. I'm going to keep an eye there, but not interested in pushing that yet. I thought Elena might be panicking scum trying to squash Math's team analysis (which is actually relevant to Team Mafia). That seems like something I feel scum would do if events were turning against them. But then she did that reversal on LLD after much discussion, and I really can't see Elena-scum doing that, especially when keeping a vote on LLD would be so easy to do at this point in the game, and I really don't think LLD could apply enough pressure to turn the tides on Elena. At best, she'd get a LLD lynch, and at worse, she'd just look like hard headed town. There's really nothing to lose, so her changing her read is a town sign.

As for Skirt, he called me town before I even started posting, and then preceded to buddy up to me in subsequent posts. LLD has already pointed out how his entrance sounds fake, and Math has picked up on the discrepancy as well. He's tryharding, but in all the worst ways.

Vote Skirt skirt

bit of a reach

How so? If it's about Skirt, I'm a little sensitive to buddying, as I've had scum pocket me too many times by playing up to me. So when Skirt, someone that I don't think I've ever played with, enters into the game and immediately begins kissing up to me before I even show up, my scumdar goes off like crazy.

bulbazak scum lean because burden of being good is you don't get away with stupid ass pushes like that

And this is essentially what Skirt did when LLD started pushing him. He attacked her immediately as scum, and when she kept up the push and others were coming around, he changed his tune. I almost wonder if the same thing is going to happen to me, or whether he'll feel the need this time to put all his eggs in this one lynch, especially since Math is backing his play this time.

Bulbazak's entrance is completely and 100% NAI, which is fairly concerning.

How so? Were you expecting more from a post that was essentially "I'm here and caught up! Oh, and here's a little of where I'm at."?

I adamantly believe Keychain and Dunker are town off of this game

Dunker hadn't yet posted by the time that you made this post. Why did you already believe that he is town?

This is the same issue I'm having with his position on me early game, and I don't buy Skirt's reasoning for that statement a la Dunker.

That logicky post is pinging me in all sortso f ways. Feels like an overexplanation of an analysis on not all that much source material in the first place. Makes him look active/helpful without really advancing the game (because fundamentally, it's just saying why he's hopping on a wagon).

I admit the post was probably janky. I was trying to both get into the game and give some of my thoughts at the same time after having read 10 pages. I mean, I could have just given reads without explanation, but after Surreptitious, I'm trying to explain my thought process a bit more, because apparently, what I think is really obvious ends up being not so for most people. So if I have some reasoning for a read, I'm going to at least try saying a bit of how I came to that conclusion. If it's all still a bit vague in my head still, or if I'm wanting to withhold the reasoning for the moment, I'll just give a quick read and leave it at that.

Did you have issues with my reads in general? I wanted to give an idea where I was with 2 of the reads I had given in the previous post, and I had just gotten a strong townread on Elena for none gut reasons. Unless you somehow thought I was going to give general reads on every player in the game, I think what I gave was pretty on par with how I normally enter, even if I explained more of my reads than I normally did.

skirt is honestly still probably scum

I actually have a problem with this if you are saying that you somehow are scumreading

both

of us.

@Bulbazak:

Up to what point in the thread had mastina read and offered opinions?

I glanced over what Mastina said, and I don't really think she's said much about this game so far. She's mostly focusing on a couple of the other games, as well as hers. I'm sure we'll talk later, but given our conversations in the spoiled PT of the Mod is Mafia, she just may let me do my own thing unless I ask a question of the team or she sees something she thinks is important.

I need to go to bed soon, but there were a few questions I forgot to ask this afternoon. So I'm going to look back over everything real quick and make sure I post them before I leave for the night.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: I actually was curious with your focus on T-Bone being in a normal. Was there someplace you were actually going with that? I wanted to ask in my first post, but I decided to give T-Bone time to respond.
Also, how much meta research did you do? I ask, because while on one hand it seems like a lot, there's also some basic things I've noticed you missing.

@Smocaine: I'd really like you to explain your LLD vote.

To anyone on a wagon with Smocaine: Think really hard about that, because that's not someplace you want to be.

@CDB: Can you give me more about your Key scumread? I thought his entrance felt off, but with everything else that's happened in this thread, he still feels like a big pile of blah to me. I'm wondering if you saw something that I missed yet gut picked up on.

P-edit: I'm ready to choo-choo Skirt into oblivion now.
Math, if you are really interested in one on one time, I'll probably be more around tomorrow and Wednesday. You should have known by metaing me that d1 is normally where I'm at my worst, and I get better once I'm able to get my head in the game and get on top of things.
Mastina made a point that I'm not charasmatic enough sometimes, so I thought it might be something I should try working on this game. Most of her input came pre-game. For example, she did a mod-meta post on Smith, but I don't want to go into that, because that could tell the scum team what's likely or not likely to be in the game.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: Surreptitous is the big one. I tried to make a shift in how I approached explaining or giving reads based on how frustrated I got with people not seeing what I was seeing early on.

And given that you read our PT from last TM, you probably have an idea with how I approached placements this year as well.

Okay, going to bed for reals now.

[Bulbazak]

It seems LLD already got to this, but still:

- He thinks LLD's scumstrat would be to drive a wedge between me and skirt by pocketing me and tunneling him due to intimidation of a possible townbloc.

Is there a reason KMD thinks LLD would be intimidated by Skirt? I could see you, but Skirt suggests a level of town play I'm just not seeing.

[Bulbazak]

Almost, I don't know why you felt you needed to fluff up this teddy bear thread, but I'm no longer amused.

[Bulbazak]

I don't see why throwing suspicion on 2 players working together takes that much of a leap. It's literally something I'd do as scum. I'm not sure KMD is arguing all that much more than that. Down the line if/when he catches up to this point I'll see what he thinks. This doesn't depend on some kind of self-importance for me/skirt, it's just coming into the game and being like "huh those 2 players are doing a lot".

Generally, your opinion of the players has a lot to do with how you prioritize them as scum. For instance, if I was scum, I couldn't care less about Skirt in that situation, given that I have zero experience with him and don't have a high regard of his play just given what I've seen. So the accusation of "He was trying to drive a wedge between these 2 pro-town forces." would be wildly inaccurate given my evaluation of Skirt as a player. Now, take that example and put LLD in the same place. If she doesn't hold Skirt in any sort of regard, why would she even care about putting a wedge between you two?

[Bulbazak]

NSG is Northsidegal.

[Bulbazak]

I just know her from just catching up on the White Flag game.

[Bulbazak]

I think I see what you're getting at, but Voyager is still a read where I don't care one way or the other.

[Bulbazak]

K. I'll let you know when I get a reply.

[Bulbazak]

Wait...Were you saying something? Your posts have been buzzing filled with gauze for me.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not really buying the "I'll throw the game and get myself killed! Then you'll be sorry!" defense. If Almost had actually been saying anything of substance before this point, I could maybe understand the frustration, but given the contrary, this really comes off as AtE meant to throw off pressure.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: I would like you to get KMD to explain himself better. I've sent feelers out to Mastina and am awaiting a response. You could easily do the same.

[Bulbazak]

I've read up tot his point, I just got off work and about to go get baked so depending on how the night goes I plan on doing a big catchup post involving telling certain players to fuck off about me being bad, reads, responses, etc. I'll either do it tomorrow or in a few hours. If There's anything urgent you want from me, lmk, I'll still probably keep up with the thread.

Can anyone spot the mindset problem?

[Bulbazak]

Final thoughts before bed tonight: I'm still not happy with Almost. My vote would be there if I didn't want Skirt dead. Not really feeling the Bins or CDB scumreads. Bins in particular doesn't look like the Bins from 17 Kilos. She's essentially lynch bait, and I feel like we'd be seeing a different type of defense if she was scum, and that she'd be kicking up more AtE. I have no idea what to think of Dunker right now.

[Bulbazak]

me and my team all tr both lld and skirt

but i think there is a scum in (math, skirt, lld, a50)

But all in all, this level of wtf-ness probably means Dunker is town.

Can anyone spot the mindset problem?

i'm sorry, i thought i was a spamposter? now its a mindset problem to want to reserve posting until i actually had something to say at once rather than creature style? make up your minds when you're using retarded reasons to scumread me.

No, the mindset problem is that from the get go you've shown more interest in attacking the players scumreading you in an ad hoc way rather than trying to figure out which of them are likely to be scum and approaching things from that mindset. The latter shows an interesting in scumhunting and sorting the game, while the former shows that you don't care about any of that and only care about protecting your own butt above all. In fact, the way you approached both that post and the one in which you respond to everyone shows a perspective that actually acknowledges all three of LLD, T-Bone, and myself as town, and you focus more on taking apart everything said against you bit by bit and arguing just to argue, which does nothing but add noise to the thread, confusing the issue and making you seem more town, all of which I'm familiar with, because it's a strategy I've employed as scum many times myself. Going through this response, there's nothing in there that actually furthers the game state or shows any evolution in reads, unless it's backing off of me (which I predicted, btw) or giving reads by proxy via team mates. At no point do I actually believe you are genuine in your conviction, other than you are genuinely angry or frustrated, which can come just as easily, if not more so, when scum.

That being said, I won't push a lynch on you through until Mastina checks in. I'm still waiting on her response for Math, at which point I imagine she'll have read through the entirety of this game and given a few thoughts/reads of her own. Thor is having trouble keeping up with his own game, so I don't imagine he'll read through this one. But if he does, and he tells me to get off you, then I'll listen. I just don't expect that to happen. I've already conceded that my original reason for scumreading you was likely bad, and that I'm just sensitive to potential buddying. But I still have a strong scumread on you, and there's nothing that I'm seeing that tells me that I'm wrong.

And on another note, apparently people just want me to go back to giving blind reads. :shrug:

[Bulbazak]

Hey bulba can I ask why you're the one in this game
Feel free to tell me you're straight not answering

I gave priority to my team mates, and this is what was left.

BULBAZAK GUT READ ON BINS GO GO GO

Town, but wouldn't cry if she died.

[Bulbazak]

The 2 lynches I'm most interested right now are Skirt and Almost. The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Almost does not pull that sort of game throwing AtE as town in this game. Not going full throttle on Skirt until Mastina checks in and talks to me in the PT. If the Skirt wagon somehow takes off, and I still haven't heard anything, I'll get off until I hear back.

[Bulbazak]

@Almost: Ginngie is just focusing on her game, and Thor is having trouble just keeping up in his game. Maybe Mastina will say something, but in this case, my read would trump hers, as I don't think you'd even think of throwing the game as town here.

P-edit: @Math: Are you somehow against the idea that I just took the game that was left? Because your Bulba-scum read came out of freaking nowhere.
Also, there's a reason why I said everyone should think twice about being on the same wagon as Smocaine.
@Skirt: You feel less like you're trying to solve the game and more like you're just trying to position yourself to best suit an agenda. And no, your last post was pretty much all ad hoc, in that it was attacking everyone that even thought to scumread you, and it had nothing to do in further developing reads on those individuals. It was all about "How can I best defeat this person?" and not "Is this person coming from a town place or a scum place?"

[Bulbazak]

Spoiler: Obviously not game related

Oh, wait...Yes it is, because we're trying to determine alignment here not play a game of "if you can't see it then it doesn't count".

[Bulbazak]

I don't think you'd even think of throwing the game as town here.

Who the freak said anything about throwing the game? And how is getting lynched on D1 even close to throwing the game?

Also, you don't think I'd do this as Town, but you think I'd do it as Scum?? So it's more likely -from your point of view- that SCUM would "throw the game" in Day bloody one??

The fact is my slot is getting too much attention that it's literally hindering all the scum hunting. Yes. I admit I'm not being productive and it's affecting the quality of others reads in a negative way. Take me out of the picture and you might get better reads (not YOU specifically. I mean most everyone.)

So, I'm inviting everyone who is not at least Town leaning me to vote me just to remove the distraction. Do you understand now?

"Hey everyone, I left super secret breadcrumbs to a role I obviously have that you all want to keep in the game.
...
That not working?
How about this:
Run me up to L-1. I'll claim, hammer myself, then rub your noses in how bad you are! Want to do that? Huh? Because that will show you!"

Yeah, I don't think you pull this as town. There's too much on the line. As scum, the AtE works towards your win condition.

P-edit: Reread then, because I did mention that you were hiding behind your team mates' reads and that nothing in your stances have actually evolved.
And don't try to move the goal posts. I point out that your post is essentially ad hom with no actual game progression, and you go "Well, the ad hom was in spoilers, so it doesn't count!". Then when I call bull crap on that, you say, "Well, it wasn't

all

ad hom. There was that bit at the bottom where I had my team mates speak for me and then did nothing with that so that I looked like I was doing something."

[Bulbazak]

No, the mindset problem is that from the get go you've shown more interest in attacking the players scumreading you in an ad hoc way rather than trying to figure out which of them are likely to be scum and approaching things from that mindset. The latter shows an interesting in scumhunting and sorting the game, while the former shows that you don't care about any of that and only care about protecting your own butt above all. In fact, the way you approached both that post and the one in which you respond to everyone shows a perspective that actually acknowledges all three of LLD, T-Bone, and myself as town, and you focus more on taking apart everything said against you bit by bit and arguing just to argue, which does nothing but add noise to the thread, confusing the issue and making you seem more town, all of which I'm familiar with, because it's a strategy I've employed as scum many times myself.

Going through this response, there's nothing in there that actually furthers the game state or shows any evolution in reads, unless it's

backing off of me (which I predicted, btw) or

giving reads by proxy via team mates. At no point do I actually believe you are genuine in your conviction, other than you are genuinely angry or frustrated, which can come just as easily, if not more so, when scum.

You feel less like you're trying to solve the game and more like you're just trying to position yourself to best suit an agenda. And no, your last post was pretty much all ad hoc, in that it was attacking everyone that even thought to scumread you, and it had nothing to do in further developing reads on those individuals. It was all about "How can I best defeat this person?" and not "Is this person coming from a town place or a scum place?"

[Bulbazak]

But hey, let's go further. The majority of that post was meant specifically to attack T-Bone, LLD, and myself as players, and it had nothing to do with actually figuring out our alignments. It was essentially you calling us garbage players for even deigning to scum read you. No actual read progression or thoughts towards alignment are given at this point. Then at the end, you do talk about alignment, but only through the guise of your team mates. They are the ones who give reads, and only then do you give a read list. There you disagree with your team enough, and publicly enough, to actually nullify anything they said, and therefore, your reads mostly remain static. Except for T-Bone. You go whole hog on the T-Bone suspicion, and I have to wonder if that would still be the case if there wasn't a game wide scumread of T-Bone developing at that same point in time.

[Bulbazak]

I've read up tot his point, I just got off work and about to go get baked so depending on how the night goes I plan on doing a big catchup post involving telling certain players to fuck off about me being bad, reads, responses, etc. I'll either do it tomorrow or in a few hours. If There's anything urgent you want from me, lmk, I'll still probably keep up with the thread.

And since people still can't see it, you can tell that Skirt's priority is in attacking those on his wagon. Not in getting reads on them. That's the mindset problem I was talking about. That's not how town approaches a wagon on them. They think "Okay, so who is likely scum attacking me?", not "Okay, how can I best dismantle the people on my wagon?".

[Bulbazak]

Okay, I think this is actually making me a bit sick. Walking away for a bit.

[Bulbazak]

Was leaning town on smoc but need more

How do you have a town read on Smocaine?

davesaz and GL both think UCV is scum and I'm pretty sure NSG is gonna lean in that direction (she thinks my creature-based tell is bullshit)

I thought you said that Dave was only paying attention to his game?

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

I'm stepping away from this game for awhile. After I wrote my last post yesterday, I realized I was physically shaking. It took me until later that night to calm down, but I still don't know what set things off in the first place. Suffice to say, I'm easily triggered atm, and I don't know why. I promised I'd play nice in this game, but in my current state, I'm afraid of what I might say. I'm sorry for my reactions so far, as I've been less snarky and more of an a-hole. I was going out of town for the weekend anyway, so I'm taking the time to relax, avoid stress entirely, and reset. Hopefully I can come back Monday afternoon with a clear head and reevaluate my reads.

V/LA. Will Post again on Monday afternoon.

@Math: I prodded Mastina again. I should have something for you by the time I get back. If not, there will be blood.

[Bulbazak]

I'm back and less stressed. Also, I see new people.

@Math: Checked into down games and team PT first, so mostly up to date on flips (minus White Flag, but I'll figure that one out later). Mastina told a couple of us that she's depressed and taking time herself, and that she'll get to us when she gets to us. I'll keep things up to date here as they develop. I'm hoping to get her responses before the day ends.

I also swore I unvoted before I left. Did no one point that out to the mod?

Unvote

Going to start reading through this big boy now. See you on the other side before the day's out.

[Bulbazak]

altho I'm honestly not holding my breath on mastina; if anyone else on your team knows UCV/Creature [Ginngie??] that works too

Ginngie's already said she's only focusing on her game. I'm hoping to hear from Mastina within the next few days, but it really depends on how things are going with her. She hasn't been in the best place for awhile now.

i get the same thing @bulba !!
sometimes mafia just makes me super anxious even when i’m not being scumread / when i’m town

It was more a combination of work, mafia, and other things. I just needed to disconnect for awhile and come back fresh.

i also don’t think anyone has said i’m lynch bait? maybe

I did, although I think you're doing much better this game. This is still a far cry from how you played in 17 Kilos, so I still think you're town.

but would anyone be opposed to an Elena wagon?

I was townreading Elena for how she handled the LLD wagon earlier in the game. I had a hard time believing she'd reverse her stance that quickly as scum. But given how she's approaching the game, and the way people who've played with her before are approaching her, maybe I'm wrong. Can someone explain to me how Elena-scum operates?

Running to do some errands. Will be on page 36 when I get back.

[Bulbazak]

I fell asleep Monday. Knocking this out today, and then I'll be current. A couple thoughts, then lunch, then 50.

Does anything think A50 could be scum or is he just a policy lynch (important)

My scumread of A50 is not policy. I think people keep forgetting, and I know you're going to disagree with me on this, but this isn't just any normal mafia game. This is Team Mafia. In simplest terms, this means that I don't buy that town A50 would even think of throwing for lols when a title is on the line and there are judges taking everything into account for score purposes (read: tiebreaking). I don't care that it's lolA50, pulling this crap as town would be detrimental to his team, and I don't see him doing that.

Another note: I know Transcend is no longer playing, so I'm not expecting a convo on this or anything, but did anybody else find it troubling that he goes into a tirade about how he was justified to attack LLD because she raged at Elena and called her scum, and then he turns around and calls Elena scum? Having both Elena and LLD as scum at that point does not compute.

[Bulbazak]

Aeronaut's ISO is super unimpressive but also he feels like he's in the same "easy mislynch" boat with me? I've seen his name thrown around wiht mine a lot for that so.

Think this is an interesting interaction.



Ugh.

I've just been slogging through this catch up, absorbing things to summarize/dump about in the end, but I actually really want you to expound on this some more.

In fact, this being an event that most players will follow I would love to set an example for all how NOT to play around me.

UNVOTE:

I will wait until I'm put to L-1. point out where I crumbed and instantly hammer myself. It should serve to teach many of you how A50 plays his game (and yet I WILL change my playstyle, so it will only be an end of an era).

Terrible posting. FYI I have played a game with you not too long ago where I thought you were obvtown and I never really thought you were scum for the entire game. In this game you've done nothing to make me think you are town, which is a huge concern to me. If you are in fact town your threat to selfhammer are pretty terrible. Especially in a team game like this.

Radja gets it.

Spoiler: Off Topic: I think the mod wants to eat my soul...

Actually, THANK YOU KMD! Now that you reminded me, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who calls for my lynch "based on self-voting" I'm going to accuse them of being Scum, and I do have reason to .. precisely from that game, where NO TOWNIE voted Joda "because she self-voted", while 75% of the total Scum count in that game did. THANK YOU AGAIN.

I mean, let's just ignore the fact that the argument is less about you self-voting and more about why you would threaten to throw the game as town in a team based game with a title on the line.

VOTE: havingfitz

It's not Titus.

I think I might have an idea why you switched here, but I want you to say it.

On to 57 when I get home-ish.

[Bulbazak]

Just check my only scum game on this account bulb or look at other town games on this account for ref if you want

Nope. Used to look up old games, but I don't have the time or enthusiasm anymore. I want people who've played with you to talk to me about their read on you, and then I'll use that to get a better read on them and you.

Can't believe I'm saying it but Bulbazak gets half the points I was gonna give for noting it but not actually voting it?

Or does that result in losing points I don't even know. Something to watch.

Aw. I love you too.

because there were other days to that game that i followed minus day 1?
because you still tried to scum hunt other people other than me?

OH, SHOT!

VOTE: Bins

You tricky sneaky little witch!

What other game days, when he was NK'd on N1???

Wow! A Gotcha post! That must certainly mean this came from town...
Seriously, how does it benefit scum Bins to lie about a recent game that is easily verifiable? Odds are she got certain aspects of the game confused in her memory, and that would be true as town or scum. The only reason you're trying to gig her is that you need to quickly generate some sort of slip to trick players onto her wagon.

How is Bins coming off "wayyy better" when she outright LIED about the game where I WAS PLAYING TOO.

And her reason for doing so as scum would be?

Notice that Bulba blew up on nothing and then actually took a break from the site.

I don't want to say I blew up on nothing. Skirt was ticking me off, and that affected me a lot more than it should have due to the amount of stress I was experiencing in my personal life. It also affected how I interacted with people during that short time span, and I noticed I was physically shaking and realized I was not in a healthy spot. That's why I took time away to completely unplug from the game for awhile as I went out of town. The long weekend was planned. The complete disconnect from mafia was not.

Anyway personal note. It doesn't matter but to me.

you're missing the point. Do you think people want you dead just because you self-voted?
Do you think every situation where a person self-votes is the same, for that matter?

The fact that you're trying to use this to make yourself look good its pretty terrible tbh.
Thank you for confirming you're scum.

what the fuck even is this post

calling bins/LLD/radja tbh

maybe bins/elena/radja

disclaimer: i am saying this not to base reads around it but rather to be incredibly baller if i'm right

This is bad. I mean, really bad. Math, please tell me you know how bad this is.

The fact that you're trying to use this to make yourself look good its pretty terrible tbh.
Thank you for confirming you're scum.

it is possible i am overreacting to your overreaction

Like, he literally crumbed that his team in reality got 4 town PMs and 1 scum PM before momo flipped scum, and that he was left to choose between the 4 because his team didn't want him taking the scum PM on paranoia. Reads should change with new information.

And he couldn't be lying because?

Oh and suddenly now that you're scumreading me, you can talk about how Shea doesn't like my trajectory and Reck is begging chesskid to take a second look, which is real funny after calling me town as fuck during your catchup.

It's almost like your read on me is more for political reasons than actual desire to scumhunt.

I believe he had been scumreading you for awhile.

Going to pick up from 65 later. Will finish this tonight.

[Bulbazak]

i dont even get a hi bulbs?

Hi Bulbs!

Spoiler: But seriously

@Bulba: I get the feeling that A50 didn't truly think he was throwing.

Spoiler: It's like my whole point flew over your head.

VOTE: Mathdino

You're right, I did go 180 on you, I had you as solid town until you started doing weird shit, like adding me to your scumteam for no reason and my teammates also had me reconsider my read on you. You went 180 on me too though, so the fact that you're scumreading me for that makes absolutely zero sense. As a reminder, here's your reaction to me posting that I would consider taking scum.

@Radja: On a team with shea, Reck, hiplop, and Cheet, while you self-proclaim as one of the weakest mafia players? Hell yes I think you chose town, lol.

Okay. I stand corrected. I must have gotten you confused with Dunker for a moment.

-uh it's not much other than LLD had a lot of people in her "i would lynch you" like aero (lurking, not posting much) but aero was the one she pointed out as being an easy mislynch? with them both on my meh-list at the time i wanted to note that down

And what do you think that means in terms of LLD's alignment?

I think I've come up with a reason why I'd be uncomfortable with the Titus lynch and maybe my reason is the same as Math, but I doubt it.

Would you like to share with the class?

I seriously (and extremely respectfully) want to ask: Why do people sign to games they don't intend to play? And why do it in THE TOURNAMENT? Like, if I had something planned, or expected to be unavailable for 3+ days I would not have played in the tournament myself. I get "I'll be busy on weekends" or "I'm V/:A for the next 48 hours", but I don't get "I'll catch up later" followed by "I'm beat and not feeling like, later" then "I have other plans, so later"...

Let's ignore the elephant-sized problem with this post existing for a moment and focus on A50 emphasizing the importance of this being a tournament. Now look back at my point about A50 not making that AtE game throwing comment as town in a Team Mafia game. Now back to this post.
You're welcome. Vote A50.

Like, I PUT MY NAME IN THERE FOR A PURPOSE, and you fell for the trap. You just want to dismiss the reads on you. Well, guess what! SOMEONE has just given me a TR on you, so I thought if you picked them as "most likely" or even "likely" I might reconsider.

Thanks, my friend. You've been a good sporty.

In the immortal words of Thor:

@Bulba, My team says they are sorry.

I decided during my time away that I was going to give your slot space. Granted, Transcend would probably make me want to renege on that, but given your replace in, I really want to take the time to get this read right.

Besides, I'm more likely to go paranoid on you d1 if you're town, and no one wants that crap fest.

[Bulbazak]

Other thoughts that I can remember:

The LLD AtE-fest seems off, especially since it followed from my V/LA notice in thread. There are some things she said that I relate to, but part of me wonders if LLD was just trying to take advantage of the good will I seemed to have engendered based on the sincerity people read in my post. Makes me question my early townread and moves the slot into the null space. Taking alignment preference into account means I'm okay with lynching this slot if I can't get my scumreads lynched. The Transcend defense of Elena I don't like, and I'm not sure how to take the LLD explosion in light of that. I know there's an off read progression from Math, and I want to make sure everything's kosher before I would even consider voting Fitz. I want to know what I'm walking into there.

Math's sudden hard defense of A50 makes me uncomfortable. Follow that up with that Radja exchange, and my strong townread of the slot took a heavy hit. I still think he's probably likely town, but it's nowhere near as certain as it was. Still not interested in lynching there today.

Given this game, my regular stance of "I think they're town, but I wouldn't cry if they died." for problematic town is not going to work. I strongly think Bins is town, and while I may have been in shrug mode before regarding a potential wagon and lynch, I've had time to think while away, and I think the way town wins this is by keeping those strong towning players alive. So vehemently against a Bins lynch. Same goes for Dunker and Radja. Fight me!

Vote Almost50

@Titus: Get off Bins. She's an Aronis-level read for me. Remember Night and Day. You know what that means. Join me on A50 for great justice!

[Bulbazak]

@Key: Strongly disagree on the early part of your A50 read. A lot of those early arguments you praised are just A50 reassigning the points against him. He's trying to rephrase the argument against him as "They think as scum I'd throw the game." or "This is about my self-vote.", because both of those are easier to attack. Instead, the actual argument against him is that he WOULDN'T throw the game as town, and the AtE he threw was a scum move meant to get rid of pressure. No one has wanted to lynch A50 because he self-voted. Instead, the argument is that his threat to self-vote if he got to L-1 so that he could rub how wrong we are is born from scum intent in this specific context, that being of Team Mafia. A lot of players are giving him a buy because it's "lol A50", and A50 is encouraging that line of thought. The posts you claim are A50 evolving in reads just shows him saying he'd be good with a lynch in a large group of people, none of which actually says anything about how he reads them. And yes, scum are more than able to just tunnel one player for as long as they'd like. In fact, I point back to those last two links of yours, which both show A50 trying to get Bins lynched based off of lying about an old game, which is ridiculous when you think about it for a bit (there's no reason for scum Bins to purposely lie here, meaning that regardless of alignment, she made an honest mistake), and his focus is more on gigging Bins to cause a collective knee-jerk reaction instead of actually trying to figure out her intentions or motivations, or frankly anything actually related to her alignment.

My team really wants to work with you

Part of me is worried by this because of reasons, but another part says "Well, you kinda want to do the same thing in case Titus is town, so just accept it and figure out the rest later."

My initial impression is there is something drastically wrong in Tbone and Bins.

I have a strong townread of Bins. T-Bone is more of a town lean based on his viewpoints being similar to mine. Otherwise, it's a big shrug. I really don't feel like lynching him today.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Can you repost the list in a way that's easier for me to parse? I'm unsure about where the line of degrees are for some of your reads.

[Bulbazak]

@Fitz: Thought about this last night, but bed and all that: Can you explain why you have a high townread of me? You said nothing about me at all in your catchup, and I would have expected at least some mention of something you agreed with, or even just my tiff with Skirt that led to my taking time completely away from the game. You mentioned the LLD explosion, but nothing about my V/LA that came before that. I found that odd.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Can you repost the list in a way that's easier for me to parse? I'm unsure about where the line of degrees are for some of your reads.

I will try.

Lock town: Me
Strong Town: Fitz Bulba Dunker
Weak Town: Elena
Gun to my head town: Mathdino Aeronaut Chesskid
Null: Leftovers
Weak scum: Keychain CDB Bins



Needs to die: TBone (Has extremely passive voting, reacted extremely negative to me trying to get Bins to assess his read, defensive snark (what I am calling it) when interacting with Transcend. Deflects all attempts to read him with omgus.

Just what are you agreeing with Bulba?

I agree with Dunker and Math (gun to head is a good way to phrase it). I'd add Radja to the strong town category, for similar reasons to Dunker (assuming we're reading the slots the same way). I'm town on Elena now. I had an initial scum ping when I first started reading, but I really liked how she changed stances on LLD and didn't think that came from scum. I'm less certain now. A lot of players I trust are saying that she's probably scum. So I'm trying to figure out why the players who townread her do so and why the players that think she's scum think so. I haven't gotten a reply on that yet. I guess until then I agree with you on weak town, even though I want the read to be stronger one way or the other. Surprisingly, I think we might agree on Key. I didn't like his entrance, and I haven't seen anything that'd make me think town. Granted, I haven't seen anything explicitly scum, either, so he's probably further up the null category for me. Mainly, I'm trusting my townreads on this one, but it's not something I believe myself. I'd like to know what you're seeing there.

As for CDB and Chess, they're kinda *shrug*. Chess I'm giving time to get in fully, so not interested in looking that direction today. CDB I don't feel particularly one way or the other. I'd like you to go more into Aero, because he is similar to CDB for me.

P-edit: I was going to ask that, forgot, then saw your reasoning. That's cool.

[Bulbazak]

That last part was to Titus about Fitz.

[Bulbazak]

We're not. I am townreading Dunker for his vote on TBone because the wagon on Transcend seems to be retalitory for Transcend catching Tbone. The LLD wagon appears to have formed for removing her vote on us. I don't see how Radja enters that equation.

Okay. I'm reading them in a way that is similar to how I read players like Aronis, which is mainly how they just approach the game. I don't think I can express it better than that, and I couldn't give concrete "This is why they're town" reasons if I wanted to. Genuineness would probably come out of my mouth, but beyond that, I'd just be forcing points. So gut, but more than gut, if that makes sense?

[Bulbazak]

I have also spent great lengths on why Keychain/RC is in my lean scum category relative to my post count.

Can you repost that, or at least tldr it?

[Bulbazak]

@Aero: Did you actually read any of the Team Mafia rules?

[Bulbazak]

Doesn't RC normally scumread you, though?

[Bulbazak]

@Aero: Did you actually read any of the Team Mafia rules?

Yeah, all of them. There an issue?

Yeah, given that scum having day chat is in the Team Mafia rule set.

Doesn't RC normally scumread you, though?

Yes but he usually attempts some effort to engage me first.

Would the added barrier of Key affect that at all?

[Bulbazak]

A50 scumread is just as balls as it's been since page 30. I'll do a towncase if he actually gets close to being lynched but I doubt that's happening.

Your townread sucks. Especially if it's based off of that "A50 crumbed they only had 1 scum role" crap from earlier.

You also ignored my questions from my catch up posts. Some of those are pretty pointed and should make you rethink your position on A50. This sudden hard defense of A50 out of nowhere wigs me out.

[Bulbazak]

If nothing else, I want a response to this:

VOTE: havingfitz

It's not Titus.

I think I might have an idea why you switched here, but I want you to say it.

[Bulbazak]

@Fitz: There's a line of inquiry I want to pursue, but I want to wait until we're both on and talk in real time. I also want to give Math some time to respond as well. Poke me sometime tomorrow and we'll discuss.

[Bulbazak]

Re: A50: Feel free to get in the line for "People getting wigged out by Math tunneling people as town". Like, either you believe I'm hard-defending a scumbuddy, or you should believe A50 town regardless of my alignment. And if it's a choice between lynching A50 and another person I consider townish, I'd rather A50 alive for having better reads as the game goes on.

It's the sudden hard defense with little to no good reason. It's like a switch flipped somewhere, and that fact that I can't reconcile Math position A to Math position B makes me uneasy. Do I scumread you? No, but it dinged that hard townread I had.

Almost50:
Me and Chara talked over almost 50 for a little and we're both confident on calling him town we talked over town meta (thought it was best to not go over scum)
and what we got is
1) The fact A50 is trying to run bins up and claim is...stupid but it's something town A50 does to help solve the game
2) the begging to be lynched thing is...quite nai he's done it as scum but he also does it as town for reasons he's already shown (I showed chara quotes and I'm not gonna say why he did it but we both have an idea)
3) A50 isn't someone who is really comfortable being tr by the playerlist like this
"the things A50 are getting sr for aren't things you should sr him for because it's a50"~Chara
Chara knows what they'd be sring A50 for and so far he's not doing it (the opposite actually)
Along with a few other things me and Chara are very comfortable calling A50 town

Anyone who thinks A50 is scum (as I saw before

I know you're going to have a hard time with this, but try to follow me for a moment. Regardless of whether A50 can do this as town in a regular game means nothing, because this isn't any ordinary game. This is Team Mafia. Try as hard as you can to diminish that fact, it plays a significant role in how people will play this game, and A50 has already acknowledged this when he tried to look like he was contributing by yelling about people going V/LA. He admits that the competition itself is affecting how he's approaching the game. Now look back to that AtE of his from earlier. With that in mind, does town A50 do that, knowing that the competition is on the line and that every action of his is being taken into consideration by a committee of judges to determine whether his team wins or loses? With all that, does town A50 threaten to self lynch and cripple his team's chances of winning? The answer is no. Now scum A50 would do that. He would answer pressure and questioning glances by putting on a show. And that's all it was: a show. One that served scum him more than it ever would town him, especially in these circumstances. No matter how often A50 tries to reposition the argument into one of whether he would throw the game as scum (I never said that) or about self-voting (it's never been about the vote itself, but about the intention behind why he would threaten to self-vote), that's what the push on him is about. There is no way that A50 does what he does as town. Ever.

P-edit: I'll read the Math stuff later. Reminder to self to do so.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: Okay, I can kinda get that reasoning. The counterwagon to Titus thing is weird, but I've done stranger. I just thought you were scumreading that slot prior to that post.

you're missing the point. Do you think people want you dead just because you self-voted?
Do you think every situation where a person self-votes is the same, for that matter?
The fact that you're trying to use this to make yourself look good its pretty terrible tbh.
Thank you for confirming you're scum.

what the fuck even is this post
calling bins/LLD/radja tbh
maybe bins/elena/radja
disclaimer: i am saying this not to base reads around it but rather to be incredibly baller if i'm right

This is bad. I mean, really bad. Math, please tell me you know how bad this is.

Seems realistic to me. Radja townread was literally based off like the first 3 pages and suddenly it became a universally agreed upon thing.

Radja starts suspecting you and you immediately call him scum and put together scum teams, essentially hard pushing him. I have not seen you OMGUS in this game, so that action felt unwarranted. You talk about Radja's read change, but yours was more severe and felt the more "political" of the two.

This "Gotcha" shit is horrible, and I think you're biased because you were already townreading Radja and you agree with him on A50. But that was a super classic blusterful A50 defence, and I don't think Radja is even attempting to get through to A50. It's predatory questioning.

A50's "gotcha" pushes shows more of a desire to get people to jump onto a wagon based on a knee jerk reaction without thinking things through, rather than any attempt at actually dissecting posts and figuring out Bin's intentions or motivations. That wasn't scumhunting by A50. That was him trying to rile up the mob by throwing out torches and pitchforks. I'm having a hard time seeing how you think that's town behavior. Unless you're just dismissing it as "That's our A50!", before winking at the audience. (Fade out. Show producer credits. "

That's Our A50

filmed in front of a live studio audence.")

@Bulba: When you get a chance, be a pal and get Mastina to read me, and even focus on my latest posts. Not only will she correctly peg me, but she's likely to explain to you what I'm doing exactly.

Take a number. Mastina hasn't been in the team PT since she got lynched. With any luck, you may get a Thor, though.

2. Yes, town A50 would do that. Yes. I don't know what the problem you have here is. I haven't seen scum A50, no, but I know more than enough about town A50 to say YES JESUS CHRIST HE DOES DUMB SHIT LIKE THAT SOMETIMES.

You're trying to juxtapose a contradiction in A50's mindset between:
A. Threatening to throw the game and self-lynch.
B. Caring so much about the game and the tournament that he shames people for not participating.

I'm not gonna generate a narrative of A50 for you because I do think he should be the one to explain that, but his progression this game

has. made. sense.

Yes! He cares about the game and the tournament! That's my whole freaking point Math! A50 does things that doesn't make sense from a town point of view in that context, and everyone just shrugs and goes "A50 always does weird stuff. Nobody can explain it." giving him carte blanche to be as scummy as he wants. And then you say he's "low hanging fruit" when he's anything but. If he was low hanging fruit, Math, it wouldn't be this hard to lynch him. There's heavy resistance to this wagon, and everyone continues to hand wave everything A50 does, because A50 has spent a mafia career cultivating this meta, enabling him to exploit it to his benefit when it bests suits him, like, I don't know, the biggest mafia competition on site?!

A little behind today. Hoping the next few pages aren't as taxing.

[Bulbazak]

Wow it's almost like there's a concentrated effort to derail the fitz wagon.

Not really? I mean, a lot of people seem to be either up for lynching him or are just ambivalent. I haven't really seen any sort of hard defense of the slot. Some weaker townreads, but nothing that's really stonewalling here. And this is all keeping in mind that the slot has been on the table since the very beginning of the day due to the theory that LLD would be the most likely to pick scum.

Just gonna point out that the reasons I'm seeing for voting Titus are:

1. Eddie's walls read like scum.
2. Transcend was useless.
3. People think they can gutread Titus based off a dozen posts.

I think this is an oversimplification for why people are actually voting Titus.

My team is all VTs btw.

That is the oddest thing to claim and I am very much conflicted.
1) I don’t believe it.
2) Why would you think anyone would believe it.

You realize this is a confirmed lie, right? Because someone on your team has already flipped not VT.

Okay, what does this mean, and is it important? If it's not important, why stress it?

@Chess: Why don't you think Creature could scumread you?

The fact that your vote has been on Titus, who is more than likely the designated alternative to the Fitz wagon, speaks way more than you saying "Eh I could lynch LLDslot".

Didn't you set up Titus as the designated alternative, though?

LLD is a significantly better flip than Eddie/Transcend because it gives us info about Eddie/Transcend (whose flip tells us nothing about LLD imo), info about Elena, potential info about you, and let's throw in "info about all the people avoiding that wagon".

And what info would that be exactly? And how is the inverse not also true? If true, this might be good enough to lynch the Fitz slot.

I'll see if I can squeeze the rest in before I leave for the day.

[Bulbazak]

Not going to catch up until tomorrow. Going to try to get on here tomorrow by 10am EST, if not earlier.

@Fitz: Can you be on around 11am EST? I want to engage with you in real time before the end of the day. I also have a line of inquiry I want to pursue, and I'm afraid that if I don't do it live, others may taint the results.

[Bulbazak]

Reminder that the players with team-assisted reads are voting fitz, not Titus!

Reminder that most of the players voting Titus are going it alone on shit gutread reasons!

Sheep Creature and RC, their agreement wins games!

Also reminder that these 3 "teams" are the exact top 3 I suspect to have rolled Scum WITH team 14, so Creature/UCV are up to something.

I'm now being alarmed by the UCV slot. In fact, I would rather see the whole team flip (except for Creature).

And the UCV slot is on Fitz. Are you saying that's a bus? And if not, then why are you voting Fitz?

A50's "gotcha" pushes shows more of a desire to get people to jump onto a wagon based on a knee jerk reaction without thinking things through, rather than any attempt at actually dissecting posts and figuring out Bin's intentions or motivations.

You're misinterpreting me again. I started scumreading RADJA for the "Gotcha" interrogation of A50. Literally all of what you said about A50 is what I was thinking/saying about Radja.

I didn't see that from Radja at all. I'd have been on top of it.

I don't think he's intentionally cultivating a meta of always looking like a scumfuck. He's just the type that believes in counter-manipulation when he's town. He doesn't believe in "town never lies". So with all that in mind, you have to look at his apparent intentions.

I

have

been looking at his intentions, and I just don't see that coming from town him in the context of Team Mafia. Maybe if he was trying to throw things off in this game to affect another one, like he suggested, but do you want to go down that path just to keep your A50 town read?

It sounds like you want to policy lynch him more than anything, just because you don't think town SHOULD do the things he's done.

Don't discredit my scum read by trying to say I'm policy lynching. This is not a policy lynch. I have legit reasons for scumreading the slot, and you don't get to handwave them away by just saying it's policy. That's what A50 was trying to do by moving the conversation, and I've called him out on it every single time.

@Bulbazak:

I didn't set up Titus as the designated alternative, no.

Much earlier in the day I figured we should end the day with a lynch between Eddie/LLD. At the time I was scumreading Eddie but didn't want to commit to a day end with so many players absent.

Spoiler: Um...Yes you did

5. I wanted the fitz wagon to take off as an effective counterwagon to Titus.

And given that, I don't like how you then go after Bins for "trying to designate Titus as the alternative".

On information, I think Titus scumflip would clear fitz. I don't think Titus townflip means much of anything though. fitz scumflip similarly clears Titus. That said, if fitz flips town, I would be much more willing to hear out LLD's argument on Titus's slot being scum.

That doesn't say much about the rest of the information or associatives you say that the flip gives us. And as for the Fitz/Titus dichotomy that you've been pushing, I don't believe that's accurate, as I don't see anything stopping LLD from entering the game and taking an opposing stance to her team mate, especially if she didn't push it that hard. Heck, I pushed Skirt harder than she did. I see nothing that suggests TvS or any other sort of alignment relationship. If you see different, then go ahead and expound on that.

Aeronaut (this game)

: See previous logic. He should've known when the game was starting if he were scum.

He also should have known about day chat regardless. It's why I asked. I'm not so sure we should write off the ignorance he's professing as town. I'd like to actually see him get into the game first.

Regardless, I can't really see scum you trying to get Creature in this game. You're right in the fact that he's really easy to read, and there's no way that replacement would go well for you as scum. So yeah, you're definitely town here. I just think you're extremely conf. biased.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

I missed that the deadline is tomorrow. I thought it was the 6th for some reason. I'll place my final vote before the end of the work shift. I have too many "not today" style reads, and I should probably reexamine that and figure out what I would be willing to lynch if push came to shove.

I also don't need to talk to Fitz as badly as before, given how my read on Math has solidified.

@Math: What is your experience with Fitz? I was going to ask him, but I think I'm okay getting this from you now.

[Bulbazak]

Re: Designated alternative: I think we're talking past each other/getting things mixed up? fitz was my alternative to the Titus wagon. I think Titus is town. Bins's "I'm totally scumreading fitz but I'll vote Titus when it comes down to the wire" is concerning. If I were inversely hard-townreading fitz and scumreading Titus then I wouldn't have a problem with any of that.

And what keeps Bin from having a different set of reads?

Re: Fitz/Titus dichotomy: I stand by the idea that skirt/LLD was an early game TvS. Not scum together, and their behaviour around me didn't read as both town. I could be wrong on this, but gut/a game I played with LLD suggests that town-LLD would not have reacted very well to my playstyle. Instead she tried to pick me apart from skirt and accused him of trying to pocket me. It's like a really weird twisted version of chainsaw defending/white knighting. My team and I thought from the beginning that their page 2 behaviour around me was weird.

This may just be a case of us seeing things differently. I don't have the personal attachment to it like you, and I was coming from the angle of seeing a scum Skirt and an initially townish LLD. Other than kinda agreeing with her, there was nothing there that made a connection of "They cannot be scum together.", and I disagreed with the whole KMD assessment of LLD being afraid of you two getting together as scum. I still do.

Re: Conf bias: I accept your interpretation of my play and I think either my reads will become more clearly correct as the game goes on, or something about my view of the gamestate will be proven hilariously wrong and I'll have to blank slate everything except A50/Dunker townreads.

Fair. My game tends to do something similar.

Also, I thought somebody said 3 games? I can't remember whether it was you or Fitz.

P-edit: That didn't answer the question.

[Bulbazak]

Let's start simple: Do you think it's a bus?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, just checked, and Fitz said this was your 3rd game together. My bad. Just got confused.

P-edit: First, the whole "they're being tactical over multiple games" is just bull crap. Second, and that means what exactly in terms of Fitz's alignment?

[Bulbazak]

@A50: Thanks. That's still garbage, but you've helped out a lot.

[Bulbazak]

Mastina's started to poke her head back into the team PT. She's starting on some of the other games first, although she's given some generic team thoughts. Nothing specific as of yet, and I doubt I'll get any thoughts before deadline. I can give some of the generic stuff, but I don't think it will be relevant for today's lynch and can keep until the next day phase.

P-edit: Fitz is an easy lynch, and Titus is easy to pocket.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, this is what I took from Mastina's team thoughts. They were mostly for use in another game, but I found them useful enough in a generic way:

• Transcend and Eddie Cane (Skirt) are the star scum players of their team. She didn't say anything about Titus, but only because I think Mastina is unaware of the replacement.
  
• Anyone on DEFCON are competent as scum, except for Hinduragi and Hebichan. Again, no mention of Fitz, because Mastina seems unaware of the replacement.
  
• Any of Team Cuddly (Key) or Black Goo (CDB) could have taken scum.
  
• MathDino prefers town.
  
• Radja does not take scum.
  
• Elena is the most likely on her team to take scum.
  
• UCV, like most of his team, has a high opinion of his scum game. (Clarification: Mastina says most of UCV's team has high opinions of their own scum game.)

If someone is not listed, Mastina either didn't mention them or thought there wasn't enough to go off of without actually reading.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: That was said a few hours ago. Like a said, most of it was for another game, but there was enough general stuff there that I found useful.

I'll post that for her to look at.

[Bulbazak]

I would still like someone with Elena experience to explain that scumread to me.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: You still haven't told me what information a Fitz flip gives us on Elena or Bins. I could also say "or the other people off the wagon", but I think you're misunderstanding some simple facts about the Fitz wagon regardless of his alignment.

[Bulbazak]

Weak on Bins. Interested on where you're coming from on Elena.

[Bulbazak]

I had a town read on her for awhile before wondering if it was warranted. I know a lot of people were reading her as scum for meta reasons, but I haven't really gotten much of a response when I asked about it.

[Bulbazak]

That by itself makes me a bit nervous.

[Bulbazak]

Everyone knows she's the most likely to pick scum on her team

This is false and the more you keep trying to act like it's true looks worse on you

Mastina backs Math up on this one.

[Bulbazak]

@Math: I don't need to find it. I remember it plain enough. It's why I initially scum read Elena before changing my mind when she jumped off LLD.

[Bulbazak]

She said your scum game was strong. I extrapolated from there. I remember what she said stood out and made note. But you're right, she said Gerry was most likely and you were second most likely. What does it matter? She still said you were likely to pick scum if given the chance, because your scum game was strong. And she said outside of that, the rest of the team prefer town.

[Bulbazak]

@mod: Can you please count my unvotes?
thank you

[Bulbazak]

If by deadline lynch Fitz, you mean before I leave today?

Yes.

[Bulbazak]

Once this last vote gets placed, it's not being moved.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Havingfitz

Didn't read the rest. Will read it later. Probably at night.

[Bulbazak]

I got a reply to this last night. Mastina is still working on another game and will get to this one when she's finished.

Thanks Bulba, that helps a lot. Did mastina make any comments with respect to this game after the playerlists were finalised? Or was that all pre-game talk?

I can tell you straight up if we had rolled a scum pm I would have not wanted to take it. We didn't regardless which is good because none of us wanted it. Probably would've given it to Transcend tbh

That said, that means little. I chose this game because normal, I like setup speccing in normals, and I think I can mod meta mhsmith setups at least a little better than Ether because I know from theory discussions mhsmith has a similar sense of balance as me.

I would take scum if we rolled scum (lol we all rolled town I stg not that you know that) if we valued winning over everything because I have a significantly better scum wr than my team afaik, but I wouldn't if we were playing more socially and for fun.

When you get the chance, I'd like mastina's thoughts on these posts. Isolated. Please don't let her catch up in full before addressing our early game setup spec.

She says that she doesn't think Skirt would play for fun. She thinks he took the scum PM.

P-edit: I have thoughts, but I'm going to wait until I get home. Vote will follow.

[Bulbazak]

Can I do my I told you so dance yet :p

I don't like this reaction one bit.

So the weird associations to figure out are EddieTranscendTitus/LLD and Elena/LLD. If we're supposing either is scum, that's a lot of scum theatre. My team and I ruled those teams out but I wanna see arguments on them.

I know your team ruled out Skirt/LLD based on the assumption that scum LLD would try to split up town you and Skirt. I still think that's a faulty assumption, because, again, it assumes that LLD as a player cared about Skirt as a player. It doesn't matter whether she was scum or not, that reaction of "Are you kidding me?" is more likely genuine, and yes, what one player thinks of another player and their capabilities very much matters in how they interact with them regardless of alignment. If Skirt is town, I expect scum LLD was just trying to set up his mislynch. If he's scum, it's distancing. I really don't see anything from that interaction that tells me one way or the other.

As for Elena, I originally had her as town due to how she interacted with LLD and reversed her scum read, when it would have been easier to keep it as scum, given the whole "LLD loves scum" policy discussion happening even at the beginning of d1. I thought that was a huge town tell. Later on, I started to doubt that initial read and reasoning, and I was trying to get people who knew Elena to tell me about her scum game. Last night, I looked over the Fitz wagon, because I'm sure at least one scum was on there, and I was trying to see if there were any votes that stood out. UCV's and Elena's were the only ones. I'm waiting on more from Mastina in the meantime to see if I'm crazy or on the right track, but I'd like to push that way today.

I'm working with the assumption that there was a token busser and a token counterwagoner. I had a ton of sitechat with KMD about this but he's not online so I can't pull up his fkin chatlog -_-

I don't think I've ever seen a scum team that mechanically driven, even with day talk. Given the pressure on LLD from the outset of the day due to her scum preference, it's likely that the scum team considered that slot a lost cause early on and planned to sacrifice it, especially after the replacement. Given the AtE, LLD looked like scum who was not in control, so I'm not sure scum would be playing the long game with her slot in mind. Guaranteed there's one scum on the wagon, because the slot was a lost cause. Maybe there's two, but that assumption always seems farfetched to me, even if it's accurate, so I'm going to go with the far safer 1 for now and reevaluate later. If there's off scum, they're probably not as organized, or they're backing a counter with the intention of just getting LLD through 1 day (I doubt any scum team saw long term viability in that slot.). I doubt it'd be anything as obvious as Titus, given that you were trying to get that set up, but maybe something like Bins or T-Bone. Perhaps even you if they were ballsy enough.

I love when scum kills my top tr

I may have missed it, but when did you strongly townread A50?

LLD/Elena scumteam REQUIRES that LLD claiming to not know who Elena is (MariaR) was faked.

That's easily fakeable. Especially since alt information is in the General Information.

I'd like to think I was an active voice in the lld wagon tyvm

Vote Elena Fisher

P-edit: I'm not really feeling T-Bone scum.

[Bulbazak]

gerryoat openly claims that he wanted a scum PM. This seems too early in the tournament to try to protect Elena by saying that. I'm inclined to believe it. Townreading Elena.

First, this is WIFOM. Second, from a team captain perspective, this is the exact reason why I

wouldn't

give Gerry a scum PM.

Thor has an early townread on momo (which flipped when momo scummed up). While this slightly implicates Bulbazak, I'm pretty confident Bulba gets NK'd anyway this game, so whatever.

I'm not following on this.

P-edit: I'm not really feeling T-Bone scum.

Talk to me here because TBone and Bins are pretty much the only ppl I want to wagon.

I had something more for T-Bone, but I can't remember what it is. Mostly it's that I kinda agree with his mindset. Sure, he's a weaker townread, but if I try to look at the game from a broad perspective, I just have a hard time seeing him as scum. Also, Bins is one of my strongest townreads. She's not playing at all like she did in 17 Kilos. And while, yes, supposedly she'd be trying to play to her best in this competition, I still don't think we'd see a scum game at this level from her. So she's town.

Bulba, if the scumteam thought LLD's slot was so expendable, I don't think they'd be trying out 3 different wagons (counting A50 which ironically implies Titus lol).

I try to look at things from what the most optimal scum play would be in this situation. And in this situation, I think scum would dump LLD within the first couple of game days, given that the "LLD is good as scum and would take scum" stigma would never go away. So from that point of view, that's what I'd expect the scum team to do, and that's how I'm approaching looking for scum on the VC. I always try to assume that the scum team is at least competent, and while that is not always the case (see: 17 Kilos), I still think that is more likely to be true in Team Mafia.

Math if you're going to preach the "who picks scum" works
Elena is 100% scum now that Gerry is town imo

The exact opposite is true.

If we rank that team's scum players as something like
gerryoat > Elena > the rest

Then gerry's townflip makes it likely that entire team actually got 5 town PMs. Because if they got a scum PM, wouldn't they have given it to gerry?

You're falling for gambler's fallacy. Shea, Keely, and Reck are gonna throw a fit

But you're essentially guilty of the same thing. You see Gerry flip town in another game and automatically dismiss the potential for his team mate, who is also good as scum, to have picked scum in this game. You're ignoring that there are multiple factors in play that go into picks than just who is the best as a certain alignment.

My aim to be up to date and involved today. We'll see how that goes with training, reading, and deep diving in the mix.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: I'm going to be here and there today if you want to just chat. I'll be looking at some other stuff in the meantime.

[Bulbazak]

Past few days haven't been good for me. Trying to get back into this and will try to get caught up within the next couple of days.

Feel terrible about the players starting the Elena wagon but for Bulbazak.

What are your thoughts on Elena? I feel kinda mixed myself, but then again, I'm kinda that way in general since the A50 flip. I'm trying to recalibrate, but I'm not quite sure my heart is in it. Kinda why I just wanted to talk with you earlier. It probably would have helped focus my thoughts.

Why pick town then, Elena?

As the "captain" I thought it be best I take whatever was left and I got this.

The fact she didn't answer with "All town PMs" makes me believe that there was a scum PM
and she took it. She just 100% has to have taken it

I can believe that she could take this approach as team captain, but it doesn't mesh with the "I wouldn't take scum on this account." line she's been giving recently.

not to mention it's a BS reason I don't buy

who actually used Team Captain as a point in who got what

I mean we can get into a discussion more on the specifics after the tournament, but you only have to look at the last Team Mafia to see that I took a similar approach to how games were distributed and points were spent.

I agree on not considering Bulba today (very low utility), but down the line Bulba has a lot to answer for.

If you have something to say, say it. Don't go throwing subtle shade at me. I admit I'm not playing a great game right now, which is why I'm trying to get my feet back under me.

On page 95. Hoping I'll be up to it tomorrow.

[Bulbazak]

Hey! I started page 100! Yay!

Now sleep...

[Bulbazak]

the last time everyone piled on a wagon to try to end the day, that was not the scum lynch

Wasn't that what happened with Fitz? And wasn't he scum?

Elena's town though so.

Please explain this more.

Okay, stopping here, because I only wanted to do a light load. I would policy Radja, though. That's the kind of mood I'm in right now. I'm going to do some team captain things over the next day or so, and I don't plan on posting in here until that is resolved. I may be looking into finding a replacement, but hopefully it doesn't come to that. I'll give a few final thoughts if that happens.

[Bulbazak]

Still haven't done what I need to behind the scenes, but I should probably keep a presence here in the meantime. There's still a chance that I just replace out, but I'll just cross that bridge when I get to it.

Spoiler: CDB Rebuttal

Bulbazak's stance on the LLD/fitz slot Day 1 was pretty weak. He almost doesn't comment on the slot at all early on but one infers him treating her as town due to citing her lines of investigation

So I townread someone for having similar thoughts and scumreads as me? What's so unusual about that? I thought it was pretty good for an early townread.

and asking Smocaine, someone he's publicly calling town as of that same post, to explain a vote on LLD.

First, Smocaine put down a reasonless vote and didn't post anything beyond that. It wouldn't be too bad if he was more active and I could figure out his thought process, but he essentially placed down a vote and disappeared. We were out of RVS at that point. I wanted to know why he was voting for LLD.

Second, Smocaine was never a townread. In fact, I said that anyone on a wagon

with

him should think twice. This is because regardless of his alignment, Smocaine tends to push bad wagons. I just watched him lead mislynch after mislynch as town in The Mod is Mafia. So either scum or potential scum MVP as town, but not someone you wanted to follow. Also, another reason why I wanted reasons. I wanted to hold him accountable.

Meanwhile, many of his mentions of the slot involve him discrediting votes there.

Where? I know I did so with Smocaine, and that I didn't like Math's reasoning, but I can't remember putting a lot of effort in discrediting any votes on the LLD wagon.

Pokes holes at a theory for LLD's scumplay that fits her actions.

I still disagree with that interpretation of her play. I think it's more likely that she either saw Skirt as a good mislynch (if town) or was trying to distance (if scum). The whole idea that LLD was trying to keep Math and Skirt apart relies on an assumption that LLD saw Skirt as a threat, which I don't think is likely. And I know I wasn't the only one who expressed that opinion.

Asks fitz to explain his Bulbazak townread, which is a real lowball of a question at best.

My clash with Skirt and subsequent V/LA was a pretty major event in the game. Fitz goes through the game and doesn't even mention it, but spends time on the LLD AtE. Then he puts me as his highest townread. That didn't seem right to me, as I figured that surely if he was townreading me so high, he'd have at least have said something about the Skirt interactions, or anything about me in general.

Repeatedly pursues this notion of waiting on a line of inquiry until they can both be online at the same time (which allows time, either in the build-up or during the eventual conversation, for whatever this is to be planned out in daytalk).

I don't do scum theater. Even with day talk, it's not going to come off as natural, and there are not many times that it's actually going to come across as genuine. If I was scum with Fitz, I wouldn't have given him a heads up about anything I planned on doing. And he definitely would have been on exactly when I needed him to.

This need to chat dissipates before it comes to fruition. Saves a forced interaction which would presumably be subject to higher scrutiny given that they were trying to set it up ahead of time.

Maybe you should read that post again. The situation changed and I got a strong townread on Math. There was no reason for me to be secretive about asking if Fitz had experience with Math at that point. You'll notice that I actually asked Math that exact question in that post you linked to, and that was because I didn't care about him trying to intercept and answer it ahead of Fitz anymore (In fact, I really didn't care about that line of inquiry anymore at all, but I like to be thorough.).

Undermines the Fitz/Titus choice in his responses to Dino here.

Dino was calling Bins scum for setting up Titus as a Fitz counterwagon, even though Dino had mentioned that he purposely set the two wagons as counterwagons to each other. I did not like that Math was calling Bins scum for a situation that he set up himself. Plus, I was never quite happy with the Fitz/Titus dichotomy that Dino kept pushing. It felt forced.

Continues to object to the informational value of a Fitz lynch.

Asking questions about the informational value is not the same as objecting to it. Math said that the Fitz lynch would provide information on Bins and Elena. I wanted to know what kind of information, because I wasn't seeing it. His answer for Bins was weak, and I don't think he ever explained Elena. This was pivotal, as he was trying to sell Fitz as an informational lynch as opposed to Titus.

Now think about this. The Skirt/Transcend/Titus slot was one of the most talked about and interacted with slot in the game. Everyone in the game took some sort of hard stance on the slot. Compare that to LLD/Fitz, which was pretty weak sauce. So how is that wagon a better informational wagon than Titus? And why am I scum for asking this very basic question and actually expecting Math to follow through in his answer?

Though Bulbazak eventually voted for Fitz, there was never any enthusiasm there, and it absolutely seems like he'd have taken another lynch if one had been offered that he felt safe in choosing.

The only reason I voted there was the "likely to pick scum" reasoning. I really didn't have that strong of a read on the slot, and I'd have much preferred lynching a scumread. I had townreads on Bins, Math, Dunker, and Radja. I was giving Titus some space. Everything else was more nebulous than I'd like, so yeah, I compromised. If there's anyone who actually likes this game state, please point them out to me.

Compare Bulbazak's treatment of the LLD slot to how he describes the slot Today: "Given the AtE, LLD looked like scum who was not in control" and likely to be considered "a lost cause" by scumbuddies early on. That doesn't jive with his 'talk me into it' approach to the slot for much of Day 1.

Wow. My view of the game changed once we actually got flips. Imagine that...

Look at how much Bulbazak focused on Almost50, a read primarily driven by what Bulbazak saw as AtE. (Examples include this, this and this but are also just a fair chunk of Bulbazak's Day 1 proactivity.)

Now let's compare that behaviour to how Bulbazak responded to AtE from LLD. It's much more mealy-mouthed and noncommittal; just a matter of 'I'm doubting my townread now', which would certainly jive with his stated position Today that LLD's scumbuddies would feel that she were very vulnerable.

My scumread of A50 was not just about AtE. In fact, I mentioned it multiple times in my ISO. Here's just a taste:

My scumread of A50 is not policy. I think people keep forgetting, and I know you're going to disagree with me on this, but this isn't just any normal mafia game. This is Team Mafia. In simplest terms, this means that I don't buy that town A50 would even think of throwing for lols when a title is on the line and there are judges taking everything into account for score purposes (read: tiebreaking). I don't care that it's lolA50, pulling this crap as town would be detrimental to his team, and I don't see him doing that.

Actually, THANK YOU KMD! Now that you reminded me, EVERY SINGLE PERSON who calls for my lynch "based on self-voting" I'm going to accuse them of being Scum, and I do have reason to .. precisely from that game, where NO TOWNIE voted Joda "because she self-voted", while 75% of the total Scum count in that game did. THANK YOU AGAIN.

I mean, let's just ignore the fact that the argument is less about you self-voting and more about why you would threaten to throw the game as town in a team based game with a title on the line.

I seriously (and extremely respectfully) want to ask: Why do people sign to games they don't intend to play? And why do it in THE TOURNAMENT? Like, if I had something planned, or expected to be unavailable for 3+ days I would not have played in the tournament myself. I get "I'll be busy on weekends" or "I'm V/:A for the next 48 hours", but I don't get "I'll catch up later" followed by "I'm beat and not feeling like, later" then "I have other plans, so later"...

Let's ignore the elephant-sized problem with this post existing for a moment and focus on A50 emphasizing the importance of this being a tournament. Now look back at my point about A50 not making that AtE game throwing comment as town in a Team Mafia game. Now back to this post.
You're welcome. Vote A50.

2. Yes, town A50 would do that. Yes. I don't know what the problem you have here is. I haven't seen scum A50, no, but I know more than enough about town A50 to say YES JESUS CHRIST HE DOES DUMB SHIT LIKE THAT SOMETIMES.

You're trying to juxtapose a contradiction in A50's mindset between:
A. Threatening to throw the game and self-lynch.
B. Caring so much about the game and the tournament that he shames people for not participating.

I'm not gonna generate a narrative of A50 for you because I do think he should be the one to explain that, but his progression this game

has. made. sense.

Yes! He cares about the game and the tournament! That's my whole freaking point Math! A50 does things that doesn't make sense from a town point of view in that context, and everyone just shrugs and goes "A50 always does weird stuff. Nobody can explain it." giving him carte blanche to be as scummy as he wants. And then you say he's "low hanging fruit" when he's anything but. If he was low hanging fruit, Math, it wouldn't be this hard to lynch him. There's heavy resistance to this wagon, and everyone continues to hand wave everything A50 does, because A50 has spent a mafia career cultivating this meta, enabling him to exploit it to his benefit when it bests suits him, like, I don't know, the biggest mafia competition on site?!

So as shown there, my scumread on A50 was less about him pulling some AtE and more about how his actions were manipulative and did not make sense to me from a town perspective. I felt, and I emphasized this over and over, that he benefited from those actions more as scum and not at all as town. I did not see the town motivation, and that was the crux of my case.

Now we go to LLD's AtE. First, I wasn't actually here for that, as I had gone V/LA after flipping out on Skirt. Second, I did mention how I didn't like the AtE, as it was too close to my own V/LA, and it felt like LLD might just be trying to mimic me. Those were things I didn't know for sure, and given that I had a townread on the slot prior to leaving, it dented my read, but that was about it. Now, if you clearly believe that LLD was mimicking me, as I believe Math said at the time, then doesn't that mean that you think what I did was a town tell and that LLD was just trying to grab town cred for doing the same thing? I know this might have nothing to do with you, but I'm finding it difficult to believe that some of the people now scumreading me still hold the belief that I'm scum and that LLD was also scum mimicking me.

By his own words, we know that scum!Bulbazak would feel obliged to suspect LLD after that behaviour - but of course it's never as easy as just throwing a player like LLD to the wolves, especially when you've already been townreading her early on. She's an advantage, even under suspicion, that scum wouldn't want to freely give up. So you end up with this fence-sitting and subtle shooting down of the wagon without ever being seen as too much against it.

So apparently you think I'm inept at scum. I seriously have a quote from a scum game in my signature, and you are making asssumptions like I am some sort of rank amateur. When I say what the optimal scum move is, that means I'm considering what I would do if I was playing scum in this situation. And if I was scum with LLD, I would have realized as soon as the meta scumreads hit that the slot was a goner. Maybe I try to keep her around for a game day or two, but once she vanishes, and once a replacement hit, especially one as bad as Fitz, I would have positioned myself onto the wagon as soon as possible.

Btw, you know who does that? Elena. She starts the game with a scumread of LLD. Then she townreads LLD, something that I gave Elena a townread for at the beginning of the game, but now I look back and wonder if that was a scum tell given the LLD flip. She later goes back to scumreading the slot, but only weakly. Meanwhile, she pushes elsewhere, particularly Bins. And when she gets on LLD, she only does so once it's obvious that's where the momentum is going. Look back at her vote again. That's the place I would be as scum on that wagon, and that's when I would have jumped on. Elena never hard pushed LLD/Fitz. You did (when you were here). A50 did. Heck, even Math did at the end. Elena did not. She said the slot was scum occasionally, but she was more focused on trying to lynch off of the wagon or say why those who were scumreading her for the same reasons LLD was (*cough* meta *cough*) were wrong and didn't know what they were talking about. And then after having not really hard pushed the slot, she then enters this day phase and tries to get credit for the lynch.

Seriously, CDB. Scum do not waffle on LLD/Fitz when the chips are down. They weak push and then get on at the opportune moment to gain credit.

It also seems like mastina should be well aware of the likelihood that LLD would pick scum, and again that is addressed in the most fence-sitting way possible here.

Go back and read that post again. Notice where I say that Mastina was talking to another team member about their game? Yeah...that was Eddie. The DEFCON note came out while Llamarble was still alive, and there was some paranoia there. So yeah, Mastina did not mention LLD, because frankly, she wasn't preoccupied with what LLD would or would not do. I just looked over those notes, saw that there was some general stuff that was good, and gave them. And I even think I said that I had some general stuff from Mastina that wasn't even for this game, and Math said he still wanted to hear them. So I was very forthcoming about those thoughts not being for this game specifically and just being general stuff meant for Eddie.

@Bulbazak:

Please explain exactly what lines of inquiry you were planning to pursue with fitz "in real-time", regardless of how valid they may be now.

I noticed how you were very much against the LLD lynch prior to Fitz's replace in. But as soon as he entered, you voted. That seemed strange to me, and I was wondering if there was some history. I was not feeling great about your slot anymore at that point, so I wanted to ask Fitz if he had any experience with you, specifically, if he had experience as town with scum you. And if he did, I wanted to know whether he had caught you as scum in previous games. In general, I wanted to know whether scum you would freak at the appearance of town Fitz in a game and vote him immediately in an attempt to use the general unease on the slot to lynch a player who could prove to be a problem for you. I wanted to talk to Fitz in real time so that you had no chance to try to step in and derail any inquiries I had. In essence, I didn't want you to see this line of questioning coming.

But then I got a strong townread on you from your insistence on wanting Creature to replace in the game. And I thought that there was no way that you as scum would want to put Creature, who, as you said, is easy to read, in this game. If he was town, scum you would lose a place to hide, and if he was scum with you, you'd essentially lose a partner immediately and be put at a disadvantage. So given that, I felt you were pretty strongly town, and therefore, there was no reason to ask Fitz those questions anymore.

like, it feels manipulative and kinda defendy of bulba

Math is bending over backwards to avoid voting someone he ostensibly scumreads, it's freaking weird and the way he seized on the CDB scumcase on Bulba is almost as weird.

Yeah, I noticed that too. But I still don't think Math is scum, due to the above, even though I am getting Night and Day flashbacks.

This isn't a 3 scum game.

I'm pretty sure all these games are.

If you have something to say, say it. Don't go throwing subtle shade at me. I admit I'm not playing a great game right now, which is why I'm trying to get my feet back under me.

It would be against the rules to explain why I felt certain there was a precisely 50% chance you're scum.

I thought it was something like 2/13?

On page 101

[Bulbazak]

Apparently I can't get enough tonight...

You're right I'd go back to Bulb, but you're at least one less person that is unwilling to lynch Bulb.

Things make a lot of sense if scum:
Bulbazak

Then you need to recalibrate. I think you have a calculation wrong somewhere, and I don't know if this is a macro game thing or not. If it's not, I want you to actually follow this up. You've thrown way too many things like this out there, and you've never really gone into them.

On the other hand, if Elena flips scum, I'll accept my own lynch on the condition that you guys lynch CDB right after (for casing someone to derail the Elena wagon).

I don't like the whole "lynch CDB" thing. I need to double check, but I'm pretty sure he's conf. town.

But I sure as hell believe scum avoided going after LLD until fitz incriminated himself with scummy play.

If Fitz's play was so incriminating, why are you against the idea that scum would have bussed him harder?

If Bulba flips scum, I can tell you I'd either go along with the Elena lynch, or sheep Bulba if he has any better ideas.

Why would you sheep me if I flipped scum? That sounds like the worst idea.

@Bulba: No, people piled on Titus to end the day, and I was like "NO FUCK THIS" and pushed through a counterwagon. Eddie/Transcend was very clearly the wagon of the day.

I think you're treating your assumptions about alignments as actual flips again. Stop doing that. It's either a sign of read problems or actual knowledge.

and fkin lol at policying radja after radja tried to policy me

That was me being angry about something I really can't go into now. Radja is still probably town. Although, if he starts trying to go the legalist route, get back with me.

Bulba: Townreads him but not strongly. Otherwise pretty much ignores him.

Given that I just talked about this when addressing CDB, this is wrong. First, Fitz didn't have any strong townreads, and second, all of his townreads seemed to be on the same level and not in any particular order. So you rearranging the reads in the order you want just so you can reinforce a scumread that you didn't actually believe in until CDB put up a post (which you obviously didn't double check yourself) is all sorts of shady.

Keychain: Auto townreads her, after claiming he's never played with town-her. Seems legit actually.

Wait...what? You just got done talking about how Fitz townreads his buddies, but when it comes to an auto townread on someone he's never played with before, you just go "Yeah, seems legit."? If you were really looking through Fitz's reads for buddies based on past meta, this should be the first thing that stands out to you. Was this whole exercise just an excuse for you to embellish on your Bulba-scumread in case the CDB case fell through? Was this less about coming up with conclusions and just about Bulba-scum propaganda? What the crap man?!

On page 105.

[Bulbazak]

I'm moving onto page 110 tomorrow, but I wanted to mention a few things:

i guess ill just sheep math after all that effort
then vote him tmr if bulba flips town

VOTE: bulba

I'm not a big fan of that second line. I mean, I still think you're town, but that line is :ick:.

I really liked Keychain's response to the CDB case. He covered similar points to what I said, and he did so before I ever looked at the case. It'll be interesting to see what Math's response to that will be.

@Bulba, you owe me for A50. Calling this in.

It's almost 1 in the morning, and my head is in a bit of a fog. Remind me about this again? Quotes would be nice.

Chesskid keeps avoiding taking a stance

Actually, Chess

is

taking a stance. Saying "scum is in these 4 names" is taking a stance. Just because you don't agree with the stance doesn't mean that he hasn't taken one.

[Bulbazak]

Serious question that I'd like everyone to answer: If I were to replace out, would you rather that I give my final thoughts in my last post or leave them for my replacement to relay?

I'll have this settled tomorrow afternoon one way or the other.

[Bulbazak]

I'll read the rest of the thread later, but I remember from the bit I skimmed that I didn't like Xyzzy. Other than that, I think the Elena wagon is fine. Radja I would just lynch to be contrary, but that's based on the type of mood I'm in and not on what I think of his alignment.

[Bulbazak]

But is a contrarian policy lynch based on annoyance over events better than a scummish read based on meta reasons?

[Bulbazak]

I'm really nowhere near where I wanted to be when I came into this game day. Like, I was really hoping to build on that Elena read, and then stuff happened.

Convince me on Radja. And keep it simple so I don't have to dive. I just want to hang out.

[Bulbazak]

Why does it matter that Radja has claimed? Did I miss something? (Probably)

[Bulbazak]

Nah. I'd probably hammer. But if we go by who I think is most likely to be scum, we should go Elena.

[Bulbazak]

Hold on. I'll grab a drink. That way I can throw away as much respect as I want.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

Elena, what's your read on Radja?

[Bulbazak]

I did read enough to know that you're just voting me for survival reasons. So still good with your death.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

@Elena: Same reason I was good voting the LLD slot yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

If I remember, it was good enough for you when you voted the Fitz slot yesterday.

[Bulbazak]

Is there anything I should be paying attention to when I read the last 18 pages?

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

@Chess: I thought you were the gif guy?

[Bulbazak]

For me it'd be less of a JUSTICE WAGON and more of a I HATE EVERYTHING wagon.

[Bulbazak]

I demand at least 3 gifs after my death or I will haunt you all

[Bulbazak]

Wait! I found a better one!

[Bulbazak]

VOTE: Titus

I feel confident that this is the right choice.

Perfectly fine voting this.

Radja/xyzzy
Archwing
Keychain

All others are town

Yeah, I haven't liked Xyzzy's voting patterns either.

As far as the rest go, I'm not sold on Radja-scum. Archwing I'm evaluating today. And I'm not interested in voting Key.

[Bulbazak]

creature believes Titus would be today's best lynch, and he also has had suspicion on CDB this whole game. This is where I'm gonna start.

Today's my day where I finally sort Titus (was going to be d2, but stuff happened), so I'd like for us to not default there today. I'm wondering why Creature would even consider CDB as scum, given that I think his play around the LLD/Fitz wagon d1 pretty much clears him.

Also, I believe in town blocs that form naturally. In general they tend to be stronger and more likely to be town.

I'll be around more tomorrow. I need to get some things finished, and tomorrow during work will be when I actually have the free time to play, think, and chat.

[Bulbazak]

@Titus: Talk to me about Archwing. Your scumread seems to fly in the face of your VCA. Do you no longer think it's accurate?

Vote Xyzzy

[Bulbazak]

1.) (super unclear on) You had proper reads before any Radja push. Something something, properly pushed Radja before he said something to you, something something
2.)You have been hard pushing Radja for awhile now.
3.)PoE list is based on who you don't townread (and you even say as much). And that's not random.

Bonus point: As soon as you started hardpushing Radja, he asked why you were pushing him, since you hadn't interacted with him so far.
No quotes. All in ISO.

Do I win a new car?

[Bulbazak]

I'm bored and it's the end of the work day. Crazy things happen.

[Bulbazak]

And I was only half paying attention last day phase. So...

[Bulbazak]

the end of the work day

wtf it's like 3

I usually work the 7-3 front desk shift. Generally I have time in between check outs and other duties, and that provides the best time for me to play. Yesterday was the exception, as I was busy the entire shift.

@Titus: Talk to me about Archwing. Your scumread seems to fly in the face of your VCA. Do you no longer think it's accurate?

Vote Xyzzy

I'm not sure where you think my Archwing read is counter to my VCA.

1) He (in his various forms) never voted LLD.
2) His slot has been largely silent while we wagoned Elena town and you whom I think is town.
3) His current SRs read like opportunistic fakery.

When I stated d2 that I felt there was scum on the LLD wagon, you stated the opposite, that you think scum were off the wagon, and you justified it via VCA. Now you're essentially agreeing with my original statement in regards to Archwing. I'm just wondering what changed.

Voyager (former Arch) only changes when LLD inevitable.

I mean, I completely agree with you here. UCV's vote was horrible. And when I was going back over the VC n1, it stood out. That still doesn't change the fact that, prior to the end of d2, you didn't agree.

Can everyone give a 3-player lynch pool?

All I really have right now is {Xyzzy, Arch}. But I'm really not as confident as I'd like to be (well, maybe I am on Xyzzy. I haven't liked a thing I've seen from that slot so far.). I mean, maaaybe I could go for Radja, but I don't feel confident there and would just be sheeping to sheep. Regardless of my actual read or feeling on the Titus-slot, that is a no go for me today until I get my head cleared and can do a proper evaluation. And that's where I am today: reevaluating and hopefully doing what I wanted to do last dayphase. So I'm really not interested in saying "Here's my lynch pool and let's just murder it until it's gone!", especially after the Elena lynch yesterday.

Right now, the best I can say with certainty is that I have a town core of {CDB-slot, Bins, Dunker} that I don't ever want to lynch. I'm growing more fond of Key, but that's not a solid yet. And I'm okay with Chess's contributions so far, although granted, I haven't been looking super close at him. Yesterday was essentially me just playing on auto-pilot, and I wasn't playing to the level I wanted to. I was going off of a rough VCA and relying on the thoughts from my team and town reads in this game that Elena would pick scum, and I figured that it worked when I voted Fitz, maybe it'd work there as well. I always meant to use that as a base to build on attaining a better read, but that didn't happen.

So essentially yesterday was:


I'd like to avoid doing the same thing today, thanks.

And now with that over, back to work. I'm hoping I actually get more of a respite today.

[Bulbazak]

Oh, one last thing--reasons why everyone thinks Dunkerdoodle is town? On my reread so far, literally everyone seems to treat him as 100% cleared since like the beginning. It felt like he didn't do much, though. Is it just meta?

Pretty much meta. I've seen him as both alignments, and you can tell. I don't think I can explain more than that.



Getting a kick out of all these town bloc suggestions that are mostly right except for the person suggesting them. Hold on! We're not there yet kiddies!

So, I'm getting ready to go out of town for my birthday weekend, and I see that there's a huge Titus post on 134. I'm not reading that. At least, not right now. Probably when I get back. So catch up is stalling here until I can come back Monday and digest this properly.
On that note:

Unvote Xyzzy

Last thing I want is a quickhammer while I'm away and haven't had the time to get things straight. Don't think there's a chance of that, but stranger things have happened.

I'll be hanging around here up until the point I need to walk out the door. So live talk it is! At that point, I'll put up the V/LA proper.

Does anyone know if Titus has actually responded to my concerns?

[Bulbazak]

I responded to that:

@Titus: Talk to me about Archwing. Your scumread seems to fly in the face of your VCA. Do you no longer think it's accurate?

Vote Xyzzy

I'm not sure where you think my Archwing read is counter to my VCA.

1) He (in his various forms) never voted LLD.
2) His slot has been largely silent while we wagoned Elena town and you whom I think is town.
3) His current SRs read like opportunistic fakery.

When I stated d2 that I felt there was scum on the LLD wagon, you stated the opposite, that you think scum were off the wagon, and you justified it via VCA. Now you're essentially agreeing with my original statement in regards to Archwing. I'm just wondering what changed.

Voyager (former Arch) only changes when LLD inevitable.

I mean, I completely agree with you here. UCV's vote was horrible. And when I was going back over the VC n1, it stood out. That still doesn't change the fact that, prior to the end of d2, you didn't agree.

[Bulbazak]

Please don't make me have to quote dive. I'll do it if I have to, but I won't like it.

[Bulbazak]

But if LLD would encourage bussing, wouldn't that suggest scum in the early voters?

Also, I'm wondering what happened to change your mind.

[Bulbazak]

If there was early bussing scum on the wagon, I'd expect them to double down when Fitz entered the picture. But I think I see what you're saying. I'll reexamine if I still think it makes sense when I come back, but that will also be me looking at some of your other posts and stances.

[Bulbazak]

Sure, let me go back and grab the actual quotes that grabbed my attention.

[Bulbazak]

ok does everyone agree that bulba me minaslot and Dunkerdoodles are town?

I'm not entirely sold on you yet, but I'm working on it.

I'd put the townbloc as me, bulba, dunker, and maybe bins. poe the rest.

I also agree with this, minus Arch.

Essentially, I have Mina, Dunker, and Bins as hard town. I can see scum potentially trying to worm into a town bloc right now, so that's why I'm not sold on people trying to establish blocs with themselves in it, especially when there are still reservations surrounding them. It's something we definitely need to work out, but one I think will happen organically over the next day or so. Hence why I said we're not there yet.

[Bulbazak]

Bulba, did you respond with a 3 player lynch pool? Sorry if I missed it. just say yes if you did, you don't need to repeat it.

I did. I'll go dig it up. tldr is that I'm not comfortable with the position I'm in now read-wise. So I can give you some names, but those need some refinement, and I don't feel as strongly about them as I feel I should.

[Bulbazak]

Can everyone give a 3-player lynch pool?

All I really have right now is {Xyzzy, Arch}. But I'm really not as confident as I'd like to be (well, maybe I am on Xyzzy. I haven't liked a thing I've seen from that slot so far.). I mean, maaaybe I could go for Radja, but I don't feel confident there and would just be sheeping to sheep. Regardless of my actual read or feeling on the Titus-slot, that is a no go for me today until I get my head cleared and can do a proper evaluation. And that's where I am today: reevaluating and hopefully doing what I wanted to do last dayphase. So I'm really not interested in saying "Here's my lynch pool and let's just murder it until it's gone!", especially after the Elena lynch yesterday.

Right now, the best I can say with certainty is that I have a town core of {CDB-slot, Bins, Dunker} that I don't ever want to lynch. I'm growing more fond of Key, but that's not a solid yet. And I'm okay with Chess's contributions so far, although granted, I haven't been looking super close at him. Yesterday was essentially me just playing on auto-pilot, and I wasn't playing to the level I wanted to. I was going off of a rough VCA and relying on the thoughts from my team and town reads in this game that Elena would pick scum, and I figured that it worked when I voted Fitz, maybe it'd work there as well. I always meant to use that as a base to build on attaining a better read, but that didn't happen.

So essentially yesterday was:


I'd like to avoid doing the same thing today, thanks.

[Bulbazak]

Alright, so I'm out the door now. I'll look into things closer when I get back.

Oh, and if Skirt suddenly does a reversal while I'm gone, dissect that crap and make sure there's some accountability. I know there are some reservations about me and some other player slots, but we need to figure out whether those are legit concerns or scum trying to spread doubt to keep doors open before we even think about getting to the town bloc discussion.

V/LA this weekend. Will return and actually post on Monday.

P-edit: I think his reads are convenient, and I don't believe they're real. I thought my stance there was pretty obvious. I didn't think I needed to respond everytime he reiterated that he thinks I'm scum.

CDB latched onto LLD early and didn't let go, and he was the first to seriously push "We should lynch LLD because she likes playing scum and would be most likely to choose it.". Prior to that point, that wasn't a major part of the conversation (I double checked). CDB brought it into the light and kept it there. Maybe you could convince me that he early busses the slot, but there's no way that I believe CDB-scum relies on that line of reasoning when it's not necessary. It prevents him from jumping off later, and pretty much ensures LLD gets lynched at some point.

[Bulbazak]

I'm back, but feeling yucky. Not starting with that huge Titus post until I feel better tomorrow. Will chat around though. Mostly up to date on major events. I might just not know specific game details.

@Titus: Thanks for the birthday message! My trip was fine for the most part.

[Bulbazak]

I just went back and checked, but why isn't Xyzzy voting me right now? Even if Titus was his #2 scumspect, she's now conf. town. His vote should be all over me. I mean, my vote isn't anywhere right now because I just got back from V/LA and am being coy. Xyzzy doesn't have that excuse.

[Bulbazak]

Just noticed I made a mistake that Xyzzy will then spend too much time focusing on. I'll just say "Yes Dear." now and get it over with.

[Bulbazak]

Who's that for?

[Bulbazak]

Eh, I can come back to it later after I've actually read from 134 and stuff.

[Bulbazak]

I was talking about the first part. I didn't know if it was for me or someone else. I also assumed the "hi" went with the question.

[Bulbazak]

Eddie: A50 kill makes sense with Math being town (shocker). Broke up a solid townbloc. Bins looks worse. Bulba looks a little worse. Nothing groundbreaking.

I kinda see Bins when looking through on the VCA but I kinda feel tonally she's town. Always wrong townie or scum? Definitely has to be out of the townblock. Not sure why Bulba looks worse.

I'm with Titus here. I'm not sure how A50 points to me being scum. If anything, that kill does nothing for me as scum. I lose any cover I'd gain from a A50/Bulba fight, and the kill takes a potential lynch off the table (And I'm confident enough as scum to think I could get that kill, too.). That kill doesn't benefit scum me in any way whatsoever, and it does more to hurt me as scum than it does to help me. And I'm all about what's most beneficial to me as scum. And if it was just about breaking up A50/Math, it would've made more sense to kill, wait for it,

MATH

, who was more of a danger than A50, due to the fact that he was incredibly obv. town and influential. Reads mean nothing if you're a powerhouse of town charisma, and Math had that in spades. Scum-me would have just killed Math and coasted off of his townread on me, while hiding in a non-stop A50 push.

Requesting Mastina and Thor to give this game time, it is needed if you (bulba) are town.

I'll try again, but I've pretty much given up at this point. Thor is not being much help in general and just comments on general tournament news. I thought that Mastina might finally be popping her head in, but all she's really given is some setup spec. Sitting on that for now, because that might be useful when it comes to finding fake claims. I haven't really sat down to digest what she's put in (It's really wordy and makes my eyes glaze over. Kinda like this wall I sat through and put off until I got back from V/LA.), but she's made a point of how she has an edge when it comes to examining Normal setups. If I'd known that, I'd have played the scum game and had her play this one in the hopes she'd break everything wide open. Hopefully she feels up to it enough to look the game over and give me some reads. Last time I asked, she said she had some, but forgot what they were.

I need someone else to show me why Bins is town, because the reads on that slot are the most bipolar things in the game. I see lock town and lock scum everywhere. I just can't see it right now

17 Kilos. Bins was scum there and super obvious. Her play here is nothing like that game. She's town.

I think his reads are convenient, and I don't believe they're real. I thought my stance there was pretty obvious. I didn't think I needed to respond everytime he reiterated that he thinks I'm scum.

Doubling down on this concerning Xyzzy. If they really thought I was scum, they wouldn't be hesitating on voting me after Titus was treestumped. The fact that they're not tells me they only voted and called me scum in the first place because my wagon had traction at the time.

VOTE: Titus

I feel confident that this is the right choice.

How do you feel about the soft crumbing of T-Bone on Titus? (start of this day phase)

I'm not sure if this was to me or not (I had just left.), but I'll answer it anyway. I didn't really follow that conversation too closely, but from what I saw, T-Bone was softing that he'd investigate Titus on a later night. If T-Bone actually had any sort of result on the slot, he'd be more decisive than he was.

Also yesterday was NEVER about charts and evidence. It was a few people vote parking and everyone else being apathetic and not voting good wagons.

If this is in reference to the chart gif, that was about why I was voting the way I was. I was voting Elena because a few of my townreads, plus Mastina in her overview, said that Elena would likely pick scum. I figured since I compromised on the LLD-slot for the same reason, it was a good enough reason to vote there, and I could try to sort out better reasoning or reads from there. Things just didn't turn out that way, so I was relying on VCA and supposition.

If that's not what you're talking about, then I'll need you to be a little more clear here.

@Bulba, what is your read on Key btw.

Townish? I was feeling really good about the slot near the end of d2, and I felt he was probably town. The thing is, I can't remember why exactly? I could have probably told you before the vacation, but now I have no clue. I think it had to due with his stances surrounding Elena and some of the wagons. I could probably figure it out again if I ISO'd the slot, but I'm really not in a hurry. Why?

I wanna see what happens here with Bins Bulba and Archwing.

Was something supposed to be happening? Wait... Am I in Fight Club? I don't want to go Fight Clubbing! I don't have the right kind of shoes!!!

Scum bulba votes partner but retreats to kill wagon.

Two problems with that:
1.) That unvote was because I was going V/LA for a few days and didn't want anyone riding my vote. It was pretty much for the same reason you normally unvote when replacing into a game or leaving for an extended period of time (or needing to take a lot of time to catch up or reevaluate). So you trying to use that as something alignment indicative is .
2.) Other than that, it really doesn't make sense from the point of view of me being scum. From either angle of Xyzzy's alignment. I'll let you try to figure out why first. If you're still having trouble, I'll explain it to you.

Not sure if Titus looks over the Archwing stuff anymore than she has. Regardless, I'll probably look over everything after I catch up and have some breathing room to dissect exactly what it is that he wants her to see. So far, I think that this is something he can probably fake after the fact, but I do need to check the timing. Not interested in lynching the slot until this is done.

I'll pick up on 139 later.

[Bulbazak]

Nodding off, so making this quick.

I could see bulba killing a50

I've already gone over this with Titus, but I really want to know why you think I'd ever kill A50 as scum.

did none of this affect anyone's opinion on Radja? I feel like Radja's behaviour around posting the log reads as genuine, at least, even if we treat the log itself as fakeable (and it is a very realistic conversation with everyone very much in character and speaking off-the-cuff).

I looked over the log again, and I do think it'd be hard to fake. That being said, there are some things in there I don't like and that just feel off to me. So perhaps not faked, but maybe altered? Wouldn't be hard to do from a scum side, and you'd keep many of the same thoughts intact. Could work if he has competent scum players on his team to help him out.

Unvote Xyzzy
Last thing I want is a quickhammer while I'm away and haven't had the time to get things straight. Don't think there's a chance of that, but stranger things have happened.

So you're unvoting because of the possibility of a quickhammer you do not think will happen?

I unvoted because I was going V/LA, and I wanted to make sure it wasn't as easy to push a wagon through quickly. Normally I wouldn't think much about it, but the possibility that someone could use my position on the wagon to push the lynch through while I was gone seemed like a very real possibility this game, especially with some of the lines of thought I was seeing. In essence, if Xyzzy were to somehow get lynched while I was gone, I wanted town or scum to work for it. Hopefully I explained that well enough.

Also, how in the world did you miss the whole "I'm going away for a bit." thing? That was literally in the next line, and I'd only been alluding to it the whole post.

But i super hard trust math's reads, I know he's a great player.

Math was really good at obv. towning and using his charisma to direct lynches where he wanted. He wasn't so solid in the read department, and I've been paying attention here and there throughout the tourney. Look back at Math's stances and you'll find that he was very wishy-washy for the most part. He had a solid read or two, but most weren't set in stone. Personally, I think that he was taking so broad of a view with his global VCA theory that he was missing the bigger picture of what was actually going on in any individual game, including this one.

Should bulba die before lylo? probably, if we follow what math said.

I feel like I'm being set up as the pocket mislynch for endgame. This really does feel like Night & Day all over again.

Why am I worth sheeping?

I was townreading you, but I was hesitant to act on it cause creature had you scumread and wanted me to push you. So I kinda left you alone for awhile. Now that you're conf town I'm allowing myself to align myself with your reads more.

I don't like this a bit. How does someone being conf. town automatically equal sheep? I can agree that someone is town but not agree on their reads or methods. The willingness to just suddenly switch to "I'm gonna sheep you now." bothers me.

I think I'm on 142 now? I'll pick this back up tomorrow. I know I have another fun wall to get to...

[Bulbazak]

3511 is not bad

Actually, I find it just as bad, if not more so, than some of the posts you linked. #3511 is Arch being super accommodating to Titus. That looks more like a buddy-buddy vote as an attempt not to gain any ill will from conf. town.

But some of his other posts felt more...closed off, if that makes sense. God, this is hippie shit. Some of his posts emit a positive aura, and some have a blocked-off chakra that is clearly a sign of a Mafia role PM! On my to-do list is to read the post from CDB.

Can you give me an example of what kind of posts felt closed off to you? It's hard to evaluate what you're actually saying here without examples.

On my to-do list is to read the post from CDB

Uh, this is gibberish because I got distracted mid-sentence. On my to-do list is to read the game Bulbazak has in his sig where he was apparently godly scum. But let's be real--I'll never get around to reading any of the meta that I actually planned on reading.

Might I also suggest Hunger Games II and Open 691, which are more recent. Both are more representative of what my scum game currently looks like. I'm Tails in the Open game.

Also, no need to resist your fanfic urges imo.

The sky was a blend of warm pinks and plum purples as Mina sauntered home one lazy afternoon. It was beautiful, without a doubt, but Mina was sure that the previous day's sunset was no less spectacular. Nonetheless, there was something different about this day. The air held the taste of salty shorelines and the sweet smell of pine trees. Mina's feet began to drag along the cobblestone path, as if not quite ready for the journey home to end. As she turned into a short alleyway she was met with a sharp, sudden gust of wind, her skin tingling with a sense of anticipation, despite having taken this route many times before.

A flurry of footsteps, the swish of a cloak,

(seems dramatic I guess)

the warmth of coarse breathing against her cheek.

"I am DeasVail, Prince of the faraway land of Parumbtu. But in order to gain the throne I need to uhhh send my eldest brother on a holiday that he won't want to come back from! Yes, that's right! And for this I need uhhh money! Yes! Will you help me?"

"uhhhh"

"Oh and by the way, I will also require.... a princess "

An elderly man turned into the alleyway and the mysterious man disappeared, leaving only a note containing bank details as proof that this was not all a dream.

From Bulbazak though, I would like an update on the Archwing read, as I've noticed that you were previously maybe-scumreading him.

I'm still maybe scumreading him? I really don't like how he's positioning himself recently, and my earlier VCA would suggest the slot is scum. However, I still want to go over the timing he pointed out and see if that works at all from a scum perspective. So not interested in voting there just yet.

Going back over it, I don't like Xyzzy's defensiveness. It's too over the top.

I should finish the rest of this after lunch. Yay!

[Bulbazak]

Welp, something came up, and I didn't get lunch...

BULBA IS TAILS

this is probably xyzzy's scumbuddy if xyzzy flips scum

hey we finally agree on something!>!>!>@2@

Did I miss you having a DV scumread?

@Dunker: I find it strange that you are attacking DV and Mina for their Xyzzy reads when you've also admitted to not being comfortable with the Xyzzy scumread. It feels like shading just to shade and is the first thing from you that makes me want to reevaluate my read and go back through your ISO. Plus, Mina's slot is townier than yours, so if you want to go after her, then I'll fight you.

@Titus: You around? It's worrying me that you're so eager to die and aren't trying to force the game to move and break things wide open.

[Bulbazak]

Welp, I'm out of the catch up and more going over other pieces of information mode. I'm trying to figure out what Mastina was saying about roles for when it comes to evaluating claims, but there's links to other games and it's making my eyes glaze over. I'm thinking about maybe just asking her if she thinks a claim is fake after it's been given. Less work on my part, and if she wants to focus on setup spec stuff, that's fine.

How do you feel about Arch just sheeping you because you're confirmed now?

[Bulbazak]

It just occurred to me that I've been stressing and worrying about not having a great handle on this game and needing to reevaluate, but I might have a better chance not looking individually at players but taking a big picture view and seeing what's left once I've eliminated my town core.

So PoE pool is looking like this: {Key, Xyzzy, DV, Radja, Arch}

I need to relook over some of the Radja stuff that's happened over the past few days, but I think I saw some things I really like. Plus I really doubt Radja/DV are a team, so figuring out Radja greatly diminishes the pool. I remember having good feelings on Key. I'll look back over the end of day stuff to see if I can remember why, but I'm not interested in looking there. So potentially a {Xyzzy, DV, Arch} pool? I think that's good for today. I figure out Key and Radja for sure, that's even better.

[Bulbazak]

@Xyzzy: Why aren't you voting me? Actually, why aren't you voting anyone?

[Bulbazak]

Okay. I was wondering if I missed something important.

[Bulbazak]

Shchrodinger's Hammer

Xyzzy, you're both alive and dead. Your actions determine which. Claim and answers. GO!

[Bulbazak]

but he could still be scum without xyzzy being scum

anyways we're probably lynching xyzzy anyways

Nope. Not interested in Xyzzy anymore. Dunker saying that he's not comfortable with Xyzzy as scum, then attacking those players who question the read, followed by "Well, that reason for scumreading DV that I said is not the reason I'm scumreading him, but he still

could be

scum whether Xyzzy flips scum or not. But Xyzzy is the lynch today. I'll just be over here off the wagon expressing interest in it though. See ya!". Yeah, this whole thing puts a sour taste in my mouth.

[Bulbazak]

Titus, I want you to take another look at these, compare them to the most current vote standings, and tell me what you think:

Votecount 1.Final

T-Bone (2)

Titus , chesskid3 ,

Titus (3)

T-Bone , Aeronaut , Bins ,

havingfitz (8)

Keychain , ChannelDelibird , Mathdino , Almost50 , UC Voyager , Elena Fisher , Bulbazak , Radja , L-0

Mathdino (2)

Dunkerdoodles , havingfitz ,

Day one deadline is Sunday February 4, 9 PM PST. (expired on 2018-02-04 21:00:00)

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch!

[/size]

Votecount 2.Final

Bulbazak (1)Elena Fisher ,
chesskid3 (1)Radja ,
Radja (2)Titus , chesskid3 ,
Elena Fisher (7)

Keychain , Bulbazak , ChannelDelibird , Bins , xyzzy , T-Bone , Dunkerdoodles , L-0

Not Voting (1)Archwing ,

Day two deadline is Wednesday February 21, 12 AM PST. (expired on 2018-02-21 00:00:00).

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch!

[/size]

[Bulbazak]

I still need to double check that timing Arch was talking about, but I'm really not interested in a Xyzzy lynch given all that just went down.

[Bulbazak]

Bulbazak, are you saying Dunkerdoodles is scum and is voting DeasVail because he knows xyzzy is town?

Tbh, I read Dunkerdoodles' behaviour if he's Mafia as more likely from someone who knows xyzzy will flip scum than town, because he's voting someone literally for possibly being xyzzy's scumbuddy and setting people up for the next lynch based on their defence of them. But it's bizarre regardless of Dunkerdoodles' alignment.

If the people who've been insisting Dunkerdoodles has been obvtown all game have suddenly changed their mind, that would be helpful for me to know. I oscillate on which of my townreads has the highest likelihood of being wrong (and I'm thinking it might not be the best idea to say whom I'm most paranoid of right before night ), so although I'm getting a sinking feeling after the VT claim and last words, I'm not really willing to push another target now when it'd be a stab in the dark this close to deadline.

I'm really not sure. This is the first thing that's really made me doubt that townread I had on Dunker for the whole game. Everything surrounding the Xyzzy wagon there just doesn't sit right with me, and it is giving me cold feet on Xyzzy. If I'm just being paranoid, I'm hoping Titus or someone else will talk me down.

[Bulbazak]

@Mina: I've been evaluating Dunker on overall feels rather than anything specific. D1 especially, he felt closer to his town self than his scum self. This is the first thing that's made me pump the brakes.

[Bulbazak]

If an Archwing wagon picks up I’ll switch but who is Arch scum with?

I'm really not the best at figuring out pairings. There are a few pairings that I could say aren't possible, like Radja/DV, but that's about it.

[Bulbazak]

but he could still be scum without xyzzy being scum

anyways we're probably lynching xyzzy anyways

Nope. Not interested in Xyzzy anymore. Dunker saying that he's not comfortable with Xyzzy as scum, then attacking those players who question the read, followed by "Well, that reason for scumreading DV that I said is not the reason I'm scumreading him, but he still

could be

scum whether Xyzzy flips scum or not. But Xyzzy is the lynch today. I'll just be over here off the wagon expressing interest in it though. See ya!". Yeah, this whole thing puts a sour taste in my mouth.

this is pretty bad

why does me doing this affect your read at all?

Because it makes me wonder if I'm looking at things fundamentally wrong. The thought process from you doesn't make sense to me. And I'm wondering if Xyzzy will end up being a repeat of the Elena wagon. I don't know. I'm tired, I didn't go through anything in Arch's ISO like I wanted, and Titus decided to drop out entirely, so I can't get any feedback there. I'm really considering just hammering away, hoping my initial read was right, and working on ISO stuff during the night phase.

And I haven't read anything else on the past 2 pages or so, because I don't feel like effort.

[Bulbazak]

Screw it.

Vote Xyzzy

I'll read Mina's stuff on Arch during the night and see if that makes sense.

[Bulbazak]

I have notes from some of my ISO dives, but I don't feel like typing them up tonight.

Is anyone familiar with Archwing's town and/or scum games?

[Bulbazak]

I'm mulling something over in my head right now, and I want someone with UCV experience to tell me if he's a clinical player or not. This is important. Thank you.

[Bulbazak]

I'm just trying to put some stuff in context right now. For example, I just did an ISO dive on Chess in Inventions for context. I got 2 1/2 page in before finding what I was looking for and then leaving for my sanity.

Although, it was interesting seeing events from both sides...

[Bulbazak]

i was rereading over the night and UCVs vote on LLD was good

i just would expect less

What do you mean?

[Bulbazak]

Mina was the first kill that didn't seem crazy to me.

P-edit: Bins, I'm really not sure what you're trying to say.

[Bulbazak]

she's trying to say my slot was trying to defend scum!LLD, then bussed when the defense was inevitable.

I was confused, because she initially seemed to suggest that she liked the vote.

[Bulbazak]

I think I’d like to look at Radja
and I also want DV input and I want to sort there
Paranoia on those two slots is extreme and I want one dead I think

I don't think they can be scum together, though. Radja is the next ISO I plan to go through. I'm just putting it off right now, because I hate going through ISOs.

Archwing isn’t partners with Radja, DV

How are you ruling this out? I'm going to be looking at PoE pools after ISOs. Any additional information would help.

Also, what are you looking at in relation to the LLD slot?

P-edit: I'm against massclaiming in general.

Also, am I the only one questioning my Dunker read?

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, but going through his ISO, he mentioned how he likes playing scum. So idk?

My initial townread was for the way he was posting, i.e. the flow. But as I went through the ISO, I was liking his posting less and less. I ruled him out as scum, because I did remember his way of posting being different and him not being as good, but maybe something has changed since the last time I played against scum Dunker (note to self: look to see when this was). If he does like playing scum, maybe he stepped up his game. Stance-wise, he's sucked big time this game. Any big name player this game, name them, he's gone after them: Math, A50, T-Bone, Mina, DV. I think he even started on me, but didn't really push it. So either he's scum that everyone underestimated, or he just sucks and will end up being a liability. I'm trying to figure out which.

[Bulbazak]

I need to look at d1 VC info now...

[Bulbazak]

Ugh. If I hate going through ISO information for this game, do you really think I'm going to meta-dive you? Looking and verifying timing info was bad enough.

[Bulbazak]

Checked back over my games. Most recent game with Dunker is TBD2. Was iffy on him, but gave him a pass the first day or so, because his play was similar enough that I wasn't sure. Others saw through it, but I placed him at null until I could sort him later (Never did. Was day vigged.). It is conceivable for him to have improved since then or to have stepped up his game for Team Mafia. The question is whether he's capable at faking his stream of consciousness posting as scum.

[Bulbazak]

I'm mulling something over in my head right now, and I want someone with UCV experience to tell me if he's a clinical player or not. This is important. Thank you.

Shea want you to clarify what you mean by "clinical player". He has some UCV experience.

I'm wondering at how he'd express level of certainty. Is he word focused or number focused? Absolute certainty or never? Expressed as "mostly certainty" or via a percentage?

I hope that helps.

[Bulbazak]

I'm not interested in mass claim atm. Ask me again after I've waded through the mod meta and have a better chance at catching fake claims. Or I can just hope mastina is paying just enough attention to give a "yep" or "nope" in the possibility category. I can call it my Mastinaputer (name subject to approval. All rights reserved. Order yours today!).

P-edit: Explain to me a Radja/DV scum team.

[Bulbazak]

This is why I town read Bins:

17 Kilos

That's a Bins scum game. Compare it to this one. If you still think she's scum, give me a good reason why, because I'm not seeing it.

[Bulbazak]

Bins, when I have this level of townread based on past experience, I don't flinch from it. See Aronis in Night & Day. If I saw something wildly uncharacteristic, I'd say so, like I did with Dunker. And face it, as scum, I wouldn't be buddying you. That'd get me nowhere. I'd be pushing you, because you're easy to push.

[Bulbazak]

Heck, the only reason town me stopped pushing you in 17 Kilos was because it felt too easy.

[Bulbazak]

Also, that link is the easiest way to explain what I'm seeing. So...

[Bulbazak]

I'll look at the Radja ISO tomorrow.

Quick note on the Key ISO: He's moved up to strong town for me. Right below Bins, if I were to rank them. I really like the way he pushed Elena, and while wrong, the level of aggressiveness he showed is not something I'd expect from scum. Plus, I just like his thought process after looking back over the ISO. There are other things, but I can't go over them right now.

[Bulbazak]

@Arch: I'm always against mass claims.

[Bulbazak]

It gives too much information to scum. Scum are the informed minority. It doesn't help us if they become more informed.

[Bulbazak]

Well, I'm doing ISO dives when I'm at work. I don't know what you're doing.

[Bulbazak]

I can't remember if you do much meta, but if so, my stance really shouldn't be surprising. I'm not dig my heels in stubborn like I used to be, but I still would prefer not to do so.

[Bulbazak]

It's universal. I used to be staunchly against, but I've kinda loosened up, where I'll go along if the majority agrees. I still think it's a bad idea more times than not, and especially here, where we think there are very few PRs left.

Side note: What did you think of Dunker's read list?

[Bulbazak]

I found the order interesting. Especially when you consider who is most to least suspected. With the exception of you, it's a list that shows who is most likely to be wagoned.

[Bulbazak]

I think Deas gets more attention than Radja.

[Bulbazak]

Regardless, I don't understand the Radja/Deas team thought, and that needs to be explained.

[Bulbazak]

Hopefully I can finish ISOs tomorrow. Then I won't feel like I'm holding so many things close to my chest.

[Bulbazak]

it gives a bunch of information to town as well that i think we need rn

And what information is that? And how is it better now than in a Lylo situation? If it's to get conf. towns, maybe that works, but the same issues in a Lylo situation are actually still present today. And you're getting conf. towns to maybe sacrifice them tomorrow, with any other additional information they could have brought with them.

If you don't see any other way, then fine, push for it. But I still think this can be PoE'd.

[Bulbazak]

If someone tells you they're a cop or a doctor tomorrow and someone else CC's we could lose the game because I wouldn't know who to pick and scum are much better of in that situation in LYLO

That's why every claim also must come with a list of targets/results. You then look at plausibility and play to figure out what is more or less likely.

In 3625 (and then 3628 you have a pretty strong reaction to Dunker's approach to the xyzzy wagon in that you seemingly lose interest in lynching xyzzy altogether. It seemed a bit OTT to me at the time, but I could mostly relate to it. I was pretty concerned about the general "I think someone else is scum but xyzzy is the lynch I guesssss" approach taken by a lot of people in the game as well. But I've looked again over your late Day 3 posts and I'm worried. In 3632, you mention not wanting to lynch xyzzy but it's become a weaker stance, and you mention the possibility of Titus/other person talking you out of it, which is a bit ?.

But the main thing I'm worried about it is the lack of attempt to really push anything else. You've been around long enough to know that when people have seemingly settled on a lynch, it will take a strong push to change it. I can only think of how we had similar attitudes to the xyzzy lynch, but completely different approaches, and I worry that you are scum who wanted to act like you didn't like the xyzzy lynch for brownie points (which would have worked given Mina's response to it), while not doing anything that would actually give the lynch a chance at changing.

Like I said, I didn't like how Dunker approached the wagon at all, and it did make me rethink things. Unfortunately, I was in a bad place as far as evaluating the game state was concerned, and I really didn't have an alternative I felt better about. D3 was all about evaluating Titus, figuring out if I could trust her or not, and working through reads. I knew that if I could figure out if she was town or not, I might have someone I could work off of to refine reads, in much the same way as I bounced ideas off of Elli in Surreptitious. In other words, I wanted someone I could talk to about reads that I trusted as town and that could give decent feedback. That's why my Titus sort was so important. And when I came back from my Disney trip to find that Titus was now conf. town, I thought "Great. I can at least jump right to working with her as much as possible to sort some of this data.". But as soon as Titus became confirmed, she went into useless lurksack mode. And that sucked, because I had already asked her a few things with the goal of picking her brain, and I definitely wanted to go over Arch's timing post with her. But with her essentially shut down, I didn't feel motivated to rush going through UCV's ISO and cross-referencing time stamps (I eventually did that, but it was during the night), and that was a huge part of why I was holding off on Arch. Mina said that there was consistency, and I'm like "Maybe? I don't know. I still need to look.". And I didn't want to lynch that slot, which was the only real alternative in my mind, because I was thinking, there may be evidence Arch is town there and I really need to look at that, and there's nothing for Xyzzy... I just had the paranoia about Dunker, and I knew that if Titus or anyone on my team was paying the slightest bit of attention, that they could talk me down if I had gone off the deep end (Although why I'm assuming my team could talk me down if crazy, I don't know. They did full throttle back me on lynching Toranaga, after all.).

So tldr I guess is that I still didn't have a townread on Xyzzy, I didn't feel comfortable pushing Arch until I had the time to go over the timing in the slot's ISO, and Titus, who I wanted to get feedback from, completely shut down, leaving me feeling rudderless.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

The power of Baymax compels people to speak!

[Bulbazak]

PR has a higher chance of dying, not being able to put results

Yeah I agree with this. If a pr gets nkd, we dont know for sure What they were doing.

That's a point against mass claiming, btw.

i guess i wouldn't be against a mass claim

i just think it wouldn't benefit town to reveal the 1 maybe 2 prs left

QFT

No idea why A50 was killed.

And Keychain, I agree with Radja/DV. But I think Radja should go first, only because DV-slot has so much nonsense around it that should make it town.


And DV, I flipped on Radja because I was doing ISOs and a lot of Radja had said was town. But it’s all fakeable. I think a team of Reck, Shea, etc. are totally capable in helping Radja fake reads and fake discord logs. He used Recks reads to avoid LLD-wagon, for example. He’s not really done anything town beyond what he’s capable of scum.

This is sort of opposite of Chesskid. His “LLD wagon is lazy” seems like what I was doing with LLD. Smocaine was vote parking LLD, but I mean I’ve played with scum buddies that death tunneled me lazily. It’s just less likely, I think.

What makes you think that Radja could fake 2790 for example?

But it's not just that. I also don't at all understand the scum-motivation for Radja to fake it. At least in my experience, a lot of Radja's frustrating posting here is quite out of character for him. And I'm sure he knows this, so why would he do it as scum when it would be most likely to just set off alarm bells?

I am genuinely inquiring about this here, as I do have moments of paranoia here and there, but I find it difficult to convert my mind to a Radja-scum world.

Are you linking to the right post?

Sorry Bins, I meant 2792

Before clicking the link, I thought you were talking about the Discord convo paraphrase. What makes you think the anger there would be faked as scum? Even if Radja-scum faked the Discord convo, I'd still imagine he'd be ticked by Math's accusations, especially if it took awhile to put together.

I dislike dunker more and more as this day goes on

I just really struggle to see him as scum tbh.

I try to think of how his posting comes from a scum mindset, and I just... can't do it.

What about his stances around the Xyzzy wagon yesterday? Those are still really weird.

Would everyone be able to rank DV, Radja and Bins in order of how much you want to lynch them?

Currently: Radja>DV>Bins
Could change after my Radja readthrough.

Speaking of...

[Bulbazak]

mass claim -> PR gets killed -> can't tell what they did on previous night
info denied town

[Bulbazak]

I don't understand why this is such a big deal for you.

[Bulbazak]

Before clicking the link, I thought you were talking about the Discord convo paraphrase. What makes you think the anger there would be faked as scum? Even if Radja-scum faked the Discord convo, I'd still imagine he'd be ticked by Math's accusations, especially if it took awhile to put together.

Realized how stupid this was after going through Radja's ISO. The post in question was after the Titus case. I mean, I still think it's possible for it to be real anger from scum Radja, but, yeah, I get your point.

P-edit: I essentially dropped the point after making my position clear. I'll reiterate every now and then, but Bins is pushing for a massclaim in every single post. She's completely preoccupied with a massclaim, while I have no interest in prolonging the conversation just to prolong it.

[Bulbazak]

7 left. Townreads on Key and Bins. So {Dunker, Arch, one of Radja/DV}. Gun to my head, DV over Radja. ISO was good except a few bumps. Those could be scum with bad argumentation, but could also be frustrated town. I guess it depends on how I feel after some more questioning and interactions.

Radja's d1 play was good. I mean, really good. Falls apart a bit d2, but not in the way I remembered. Still somewhat solid except near the end. D3 wasn't horrible.

[Bulbazak]

Would everyone be able to rank DV, Radja and Bins in order of how much you want to lynch them?

Currently: Radja>DV>Bins

That would also change this to DV>Radja>Bins.

[Bulbazak]

Key asked specifically about those 3. You asked about top 3 for scum in general. So I'm not sure how you think that doesn't follow?

[Bulbazak]

I'm mulling something over in my head right now, and I want someone with UCV experience to tell me if he's a clinical player or not. This is important. Thank you.

Shea want you to clarify what you mean by "clinical player". He has some UCV experience.

I'm wondering at how he'd express level of certainty. Is he word focused or number focused? Absolute certainty or never? Expressed as "mostly certainty" or via a percentage?

I hope that helps.

Radja, I'd like an answer whenever you get back.

[Bulbazak]

@Radja: If I have anything to say regarding those 2 questions, I'll say them when I'm done doing dives.

Speaking of, I'm going to be finishing those today and getting a post up that I've been meaning to do all week. Crossing fingers I just don't fall asleep again.

[Bulbazak]

Okay. Going to stop putting this off now.

Spoiler: For Your Sanity

Okay, I'm going to go line by line here and try to match with my notes. It's been several days, so hopefully I still know what this means.

k so, game started on 20th of Jan.

Actually, the game started on the 22nd. Looking back at our Team PT, we were given all the role PMs on the 19th and took the better part of the day to assign them. I'm not sure how that went for other teams, but the game thread did not open until the 22nd. I looked at the Invention Scum PT to get an idea of when that one opened up, and the first non-mod post wasn't until the 21st. So I'm not sure what this line is in reference to. It's easy to say "Welp, Arch just screwed up and let it slip he's scum.", but that's assuming that the mod opened up the Scum PT that early and Arch's team started posting in there on the 20th (hence game starting). But again, I don't have any way to verify that, and everything I do have points to that still being potentially too early. I also don't think that Arch is talking about team comp discussion here. He'd say so. So not sure what the answer is here, but I am noticing that this is a major time discrepancy in Arch's post.

on 22nd creature wanted UCV to push LLD and skirt skirt.

I have a note here that says "Skirt discrepancy". Not sure what that means, so going to look real quick.
...
Okay, so best that I can tell, it has to do with the way UCV pushed Skirt. Arch says that Creature was the one that wanted UCV to push Skirt, but UCV repeatedly says it's Mulch. The focus is actually incredibly Mulch-centric, and Creature is left out of it until after Dino starts hounding UCV. UCV explodes on Dino, specifically asking if Mulch is not good enough, but you'd think with a focus from the playerlist on what Creature is thinking, that if Creature was actually giving feedback, UCV wouldn't have a problem just giving that straightaway. I don't know. It just doesn't feel right.

Also, for those I asked about if UCV was a clinical player: He gave percentages on how sure his team mates were on Skirt being scum. They're all 100%, except for Creature, who is 99%. He repeats this again later. I've played with Creature, and I've never seen him display that level of doubt if he had a strong scum read. Maybe I just haven't played with him enough, and I've been wrong before, but I don't think Creature is one to say "I'm 99% sure this guy is scum.". He'd just scream "X is scum!" over and over again.

early town reads on dunker bins and a50.
keychain looks bad, thus he makes the first scum team guess of {lld, skirt, keychain}

This is where Mina gets that UCV and Arch are consistent. Compare the above to this UCV post:

I'm not asking you to have Creature read the thread literally this second.

I'm asking you when he has provided input in the past, and if he has been reading this thread.

I've twice requested specifically him to be reading this game.

) Elena is most likely to choose scum from her team 2) eddie succesfully pocketed someone 3) Mathdino's reads seem pretty good 4) We want eddie cane pushed but I'm not 99% 5) Keychain was scummy but then he thinks he must be misreading them 6) LLD is scummy 7) Early game called LLD, skirt skirt, keychain 8) bulba is town 9) almost50 is town cause playing like open 707 10) Bins is town 11) Dunkerdoodles feels town
all posted by creature



here

Scum reads and town reads are the same. I didn't really see it at first, but that's because you have to rearrange what's being said about the town reads. This is also consistent to what he said earlier about Creature's strength on Skirt (something I just covered), but again, that seems like a really weird thing for Creature to say. And given how much Dino had to push to get this, I'm really not sure about the whole thing.

25th says {elena LLD transcend}
also thinks TBone doesn't pick scum and then lurk 'til lynched.

I checked the timeline here, and this doesn't match up. I'm not sure about the team suggestion, but more on the suggestion that Creature thinks T-Bone is town. If that was the case, apparently UCV didn't get the memo, because he started pushing the slot on the 25th.

29th thinks bins being dino's top lynch is wtffff
thinks NSG and dino are the most likely people on your team to pick scum.

I looked all over the UCV ISO from the 29th on, and there's no evidence of a Math scumread.

on the first of feb, thought about pushing chess for scum, then retracted and said stay on havingfitz.

The Chess scumread lines up here. UCV was scumreading Chess at the time. Other than that, "stay on Havingfitz" makes zero sense. UCV wasn't voting the Fitz slot at the time, and hadn't the entire day phase. In fact, his vote was still on Titus at the time. UCV wouldn't vote Fitz until the next day, at which point the wagon was gaining a lot of attention.

A50's post 2053 has a solid case on chesskid scum.

Here's the case being referenced:

CK not using the alleged program in this game is pinging me, and the swap in itself could've been strategically done to play down suspicion on Smocaine (maybe Smocaine couldn't handle it anymore. I don't know). CK may have felt he's done a good job already and could now try to bring his team the in in here.

I actually had to do a Chess ISO dive for a reference, as I'd only read the Inventions scum chat, so thanks for that trip into the jaws of insanity (although it was slightly amusing). Finally found it, and I'm not sure how A50 thinks it'd be any use here. 1.) It was made clear that Chess did not have access to the program, but had seen info on certain select players that were likely to be in the tourney. 2.) He only had the info on those players. 3.) The info was on high level players that would be difficult to read. I'm not sure if anyone thought we actually had anyone that would fit on that list and that Chess/Elli would have tried looking up. T-Bone maybe? CDB? The list would be very small, and that's assuming those names were one of the few that he looked up before Elli took over the tourney.

It makes sense that A50 would be zeroed in on it, since he was trying to break the tournament via tourney-wide VCA. It's conceivable that Creature would have expected something similar, but again, in that same game, Chess made it clear that his having info on Mastina from the program was a fluke and likely not repeatable. In other words, the application of such knowledge was limited, and it was unlikely to be useful again. If Chess did have information to use in this game, he'd likely push it, although he did seem to want to do so at a minimum, as he wasn't sure of the legality of the whole thing. When he brought it up in Inventions, it was more of a "Hey guys! I actually have more proof than what I've presented, and I'm 100% sure, but I can't go any further on this. Just do what I ask, because I didn't want to bring this up in the first place.". So not something he's going to rush in this game and advertise if he did have such info.

Also, he was on vacation at the time. So...

That's about it for my notes. I'm going to go take a quick look at the d1 VCs. I don't want to push something for a pattern if there isn't one, so I want to double check the data.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, double checked, and Dino

was

a counter to the Fitz wagon. Does anyone think there were any other scum besides Fitz on or pushing the wagon? Or do you think it was all town?

[Bulbazak]

Okay, double checked, and Dino

was

a counter to the Fitz wagon. Does anyone think there were any other scum besides Fitz on or pushing the wagon? Or do you think it was all town?

What are your thoughts on this?

Going to use this to answer both you and Radja. I'm torn on the progression of the Math wagon. At one point it did get to 4 people, which rivaled Titus and Fitz. However, I'm not sure how much that means given the mod's continual VC mistakes. The VCs in general were during the time that I had gone V/LA and unvoted, but I'm still shown to be on Titus. You'd think that someone would have pointed that out during the 4 days or so I was gone, but nope. LLD attacked my vote on the Titus wagon (which again, was not actually there), but you'd think as scum that she'd be aware of the actual status and placement of the votes. So was this strategic or did she actually not know? And is that the case for the rest of the scum team? Were they perhaps thinking that they could float a lynch off of a mod mistake, or were they completely unaware? And what about the town that actually should have known better and been paying attention? I don't know. So that makes the Math counterwagon hard to answer for me. Personally, I'm not sure if scum would push Math. That seems super volatile in the long run, and Titus would be way better for them. This also fits with my current Arch read, where UCV was soft pushing Math, but staying on the Titus wagon. And given that UCV's position on Fitz makes complete sense from a bussing pov, that progression fits my understanding of the game the best. But it also bugs me that Math's wagon got up so high, because he was super obvious town, and the thought that it was completely town led really bugs me.

DV, what was it that you wanted to ask me? I'm having a really busy weekend. But I'll see if I can find time to get to your question

I was interested in how confident you are in your read of me.

You needed to wait for Radja to appear just to ask him that?

EVERYONE but me has listed you as their number one choice

Arch is my number one choice. I was asked a leading "out of three" question that is somehow being taken as my actual top reads.

I'm the backup tracker. I tracked Archwing last night and he went nowhere.

Does your role literally say "Backup Tracker"? This is important.

[Bulbazak]

I'm talking it over with mastina (which is essentially like a game of phone tag where you hope the other person responds to you), but I'm not feeling great about that claim.

[Bulbazak]

Also, something something greylisted roles something something.

[Bulbazak]

Does your role literally say "Backup Tracker"? This is important.

I don't think an answer to this would be allowed?

You don't think you'd be allowed to give an answer relating to your actual role?

and bulba backup was used in TM already in ethers normal
now it’s not greylisted? i don’t think
my only iffy part was there being already a backup role

First, the setups are created by the actual mods and not by committee. So just because Ether designed her game a certain way does not mean Smith did. In fact, mastina has already dumped a lot of mod meta in the chat that I still need to get through (and likely won't). I'm just down to asking specific questions now. Greylisted roles were brought up after Math's death, because Fruit Vendor is a greylisted role. Mastina said at the time to keep an eye out, because only one more max would be in the game. I wasn't sure on the status of something like Backup Tracker at the time, so I looked it up, and Backup is normal as a modifier. I asked mastina if something like Backup Tracker would be likely in this game, and she said that Smith would be unlikely to include it. If he included a backup role, it'd probably be Universal Backup. There's another reason why I don't like DV's claim, but that's based on some of the things mastina has said regarding Smith's design philosophy. I want to finish massclaim first and have DV actually stop dodging the question before I reveal what it is, though. I might be able to catch the other scumbag.

Speaking of claiming, Bins, you haven't claimed yet. I thought you would, given that you even offered to go first. I'll claim after you.

[Bulbazak]

Given what I've been told of the mod, that's exactly what he'd be looking for. But I'll go more into this later.

VT as well.

[Bulbazak]

You were asking me to comment on the wording of my role PM, which would, by my interpretation, be against the rules.

I was asking you if your role was actually called Backup Tracker, and not something else like "Backup Investigator" or some other type of backup. A straight-up tracker backup didn't make sense to me, and I was wondering if you just simplified the actual role with what you are now. I was specifically asking for the actual name of your role, and there was nothing ambiguous about the question. So acting like I'm trying to get you to quote part of your Role PM is disingenuous when all I said was "What's your role actually called?". That'd be like if we were in a theme game, I claimed VT, you asked specifics, and I started acting cagey, even though it's very easy to say "Reginald Foresythe, Expert Butterfly Collector, Vanilla Townie".

And why it's important is that given what mastina has told me about the mod, Backup Tracker as a role seemed highly unlikely to me, as its inclusion would suggest the Tracker role being super important and would increase the game falling into a Follow the Cop type mentality, which Smith has been shown to be adverse to. It's why I asked her if Backup Tracker would be something that Smith would include in a game. I even asked about Backup Investigator. And she said that the role would be unlikely, and he'd probably include something along the lines of Universal Backup. So yeah, I've been pretty skeptical about your claim, but given that there have been no other PR claims, it makes me think it's a little more likely, and the mod is just trying to counterbalance day talk.

Overall, not interested in you or Radja today. Think Bins and Key are town. Dunker can be figured out later with more info and PoE. That leaves Arch, who I was going to vote before the massclaim actually happened.

Vote Archwing

[Bulbazak]

Overall, not interested in you or Radja today.

why not

these r the people that need to die before LYLO, and radja is the better pick

and archwing is like, so, like, eh

next thing ur saying its {Archwing, Dunker} to u
so whats ur reason for stonewalling radja lynch HMM

DV is either a PR or will easily be caught as scum by the claim. So not interested in that. Radja is in this weird dichotomy with DV, and I'm not always a fan of "There

has

to be one scum in this pair." for non-PoE reasons (See Creature v. Quantum in Night & Day for an actual good dichotomy which was completely ignored.). If DV is fakeclaiming, I really don't want to vote there, and I'm not entirely sold on that slot otherwise, especially since Radja doesn't make sense in an Arch-scum game view.

- he overjustified his hammer even when the majority of players didnt care
- the hammer was meh

Probably the biggest point against him, and I'm not sure it means much.

- UCV vote on LLD didnt look like a bus

Why not? I've looked at that post and ISO multiple times now, and the progression still doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

- in general i have gotten good vibes from this slot, and am unsure on where a scumread could be coming from

You mean besides all those times I talked about why I thought the slot was scum and broke down Arch's timing post? The timing post alone has a lot of parts that don't add up, and that's before you get to VCA implicating UCV or Arch's posting the last dayphase being incredibly sketchy and unusually passive.

- i cant figure out who his buddy would be, unless im wrong on dunker/keychain, because he's not scum with DV/bulba/radja

Who's Radja's buddy? And don't say me, because prior to that last post, you didn't have me as a scum read, which means you had someone else in mind as a buddy.

[Bulbazak]

My teammates would like me to vote Dunk, but I'm not really a big fan of that.

Why not?

Seriously though, if anyone else brings up me overjustifying the hammer as a point against me again, I'm going to go insane. I was FORCED to justify it by MathDino, for the one millionth time. omfg

Radja overjustified the hammer.

@bulba

if i say u don’t be mad ok but i’m considering the possibility
im not going to come to that until i flip radja

but uh radja could be scum with anyone imo lol
other than DV
maybe Arch, idk
it’s all
idk

Well it looked like the "Bulba is most likely buddies with Radja" talk was coinciding nicely with my strong opposition of the Radja lynch. Prior to that, there was nothing, so that shows that read of "It has to be Bulba. No one else fits with Radja." is full of crap, because that obviously wasn't the case prior to me saying "I don't like Radja. We should lynch Archwing.". So who was your most likely buddy pick at the time, because you must have had one? And if you didn't, why weren't you questioning your Radja read?

Spoiler: mostly nonsense

I was asking you if your role was actually called Backup Tracker, and not something else like "Backup Investigator" or some other type of backup. A straight-up tracker backup didn't make sense to me, and I was wondering if you just simplified the actual role with what you are now. I was specifically asking for the actual name of your role, and there was nothing ambiguous about the question. So acting like I'm trying to get you to quote part of your Role PM is disingenuous when all I said was "What's your role actually called?". That'd be like if we were in a theme game, I claimed VT, you asked specifics, and I started acting cagey, even though it's very easy to say "Reginald Foresythe, Expert Butterfly Collector, Vanilla Townie".

And why it's important is that given what mastina has told me about the mod, Backup Tracker as a role seemed highly unlikely to me, as its inclusion would suggest the Tracker role being super important and would increase the game falling into a Follow the Cop type mentality, which Smith has been shown to be adverse to. It's why I asked her if Backup Tracker would be something that Smith would include in a game. I even asked about Backup Investigator. And she said that the role would be unlikely, and he'd probably include something along the lines of Universal Backup. So yeah, I've been pretty skeptical about your claim, but given that there have been no other PR claims, it makes me think it's a little more likely, and the mod is just trying to counterbalance day talk.

Thanks for the reply. I was confused by what you meant because I said I was the backup tracker and didn't know why that needed any clarification, but that makes sense.

Now I want someone to make "Reginald Foresythe, Expert Butterfly Collector" a role.

- I think Bins has to be town because of her immediate reaction to my claim. I don't think(?) scum would have been able to know that there no other PRs and if there were another PR, I think they might still have had a shot at lynching me. BUT, Bins unnecessarily put herself in a position where she could not turn around on me without looking really suspicious. So I just don't think the play makes sense from scum there.

Um, I'm not following. If Bins was scum and you were town, wouldn't she know that your claim was true? Trying to lynch you now would be risky. Why wouldn't she back you immediately?

Spoiler: Do you see what I see?

And so that would... leave me with Archwing and Bulba, with maybe a chance of Radja replacing one of them?

boon is having second thoughts and now think the team might be bulba/arch.

@DV: Why aren't you voting Arch, then?

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

I thought this opened back up later than it did...

Taking care of Mom, because she's sick. Also going to skim back over the last day phase. Something was said that is bothering me, and I need to double check on who said it. Also waiting on DV claim. Should take that one slow and not jump on it.

[Bulbazak]

And suddenly that VC gif is very appropriate. Going back over yesterday. Not doing anything else until I'm done.

[Bulbazak]

Gun to my head, bulba and radja.

I'm worried that there's a mafia roleblocker or something. I mean, fruit vendor, tracker, backup tracker... I could maybe see it. In that csse they block Deas, nk someone else and obviously hard push deas as a fake claim for the mislynch win.

This looks really bad on a reread. I also didn't like Arch's insistence that the scum team was comprised of 3 goons, but I guess if you were only looking at 3 PRs, I could kinda see it. Okay, seeing if I missed anything.

[Bulbazak]

You seriously think me, the potential counter wagon to radja, everyone's secondary lynch target yesterday, would make the night kill?

After having already been tracked once? Yeah. The likelihood of being tracked again is smaller, and the chance your buddy gets tracked is higher. I've tracked the same person twice in a row before, but it's super rare, even if you are heavy duty scumreading the person. But still...

@DV: Why did you track Arch again?

Bins claim makes sense. Mastina was going on about setup not making sense and said that someone was lying. She did setup spec after T-Bone and kept on landing on 4 PRs, though she didn't think any of them would be too strong. I still don't like Backup Tracker because of the "Follow the Cop" like element it suggests that the game would have. And that's something I think Smith would not include. I mean, he essentially has a hate boner for cops and doesn't like hard guilties. However, evidence does show that he

really

likes the tracker role. And when I looked over some of his modding thoughts, it seems he does like to overpower town to compensate for higher scum win rates. Something about if town can't win in those conditions, then they deserve to lose. I'll see if I can track down the quote. With day talk in the mix, I could potentially see him including a more powerful town PR set. Idk. I need to talk to mastina about this.