Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[Sando]

VOTE: Creature

[Sando]

The guy just hates to play Scum and he either lurks it out until lynched/replaced or posts nonsense on intervals and still gets lynched.

Happened in my last game, literally all of that, so yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.

I love the RVS stage, and if I could have used the hydra I would have.

As for the Sando, I am awaiting the Kop head's thoughts, as the Brass head's just using a gut read that agrees with a Kop-head brain read.

I hate the RVS stage, you'll get a lot more out of me in a RL day or two, muchos more than you would like I imagine.

Speaking of:

@Mod

, I'm V/LA for the next ~24 hours (this happens most Wednesday nights FYI).

[Sando]

In post 19, Lalendra wrote:
Good feelings about doomfeathers; it seems like he is being proactive town by getting things going, asking probing questions and trying to get us out of RVS as quickly as possible.

Isn't it a bit too early to say that on Page1? Plenty of players had posted nothing.

I mean not like page2 is much "better" (worse?)...

[Sando]

Creature is OMGUSy by nature

, He hate to be wagoned as either alignment and could very well SR his voters, I admit. However, his entrance was HORRIBLE. The "Town?" comment on an opening post by doom was silly enough to earn Creature a SR on it's own, even if he had to retract it soon after.

Creature is GOOD as Town

, and would not have commented on that post AT ALL if he was Town here. The bad play/nonesense still points to Scum!Creature, especially since that comment came while he was catching up, thus should have yet seen what I said about him (i.e. no way he OMGUS SR'd me as Town!him would still)

(Bolding mine)

This is very scummy to me, firstly you establish that Creature apparently has 2 metas:

1: Scum!Creature lurks and gets prodded/replaced in his scum games (post 26 that creature just quoted)
2: town!Creature is OMGUS a lot but a very good town player

I would 100% agree with 1, I just finished a game a few weeks ago with him where he was scum and everything said about him applied to a T. I can see the OMGUS argument just from this thread,

but to claim that he's both OMGUS-y AND a good player says that you think the OMGUS from him is not anti-town

.

However, apart from the OMGUS creature has not posted anything "bad" in terms of being town that I've seen, and since you yourself basically don't think OMGUS is anti-town...why do you think he's scum? To get to him being Scum you have to completely ignore the meta that you yourself stated (because he's certainly not lurking and getting prodded), and also have not established any poor town play other than OMGUS, which you think is just "part of his nature".

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Almost50

[Sando]

OMGUS is never antitown if you actually think the scumread on you is scum-motivated.

Is it really OMGUS at that point though? The problem with OMGUS is it muddies the water by overdoing it to everyone who looks your way, making it harder to see said scum-motivated scumreads when they occur.

I don't think OMGUS play is particularly alignment indicative, however if you constantly do it then it risks the rest of town tuning out your legitimate scumreads on people attacking you as boy who cried wolf, which yeah is anti-town in making your scumhunting less effective.

For the moment you're well and truly outside your scum-meta, you're scumhunting, while also OMGUS-ing a lot. I'm putting you town but I'm wary of your reads due to the OMGUS nature (he says voting the person you're in an argument with).

Also my point on A50 is that he apparently agrees with you that OMGUS is not anti-town, yet also attacks you for OMGUS... I don't see any "bad play" from you apart from over-use of OMGUS, so I feel A50 is attacking you for your OMGUS while also saying that OMGUS is not anti-town.

[Sando]

(already showed why my scumread on A50 can't be OMGUS)

I'd agree that it's not

Also, I'm not over-OMGUSing.

I disagree, but I think it's NIA or even town-indicative from you given experience of my last game with you.

[Sando]

I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.

I still don't get it, are you say it's NAI for Paradox is point the FOS or that it's NAI for Taly to vote Doom over A50?

Taly's 167 strikes me as a massive over-reaction to a poor post, hits me as a very (frustrated) townie reaction but it makes me worry about the reads a bit. It's a good point though that Taly puts Doom+A50 as his top reads and cops a FOS from Paradox in return that attempts to derail without actually dealing with any of the accusations against those 2.

[Sando]

Saldon (Potential Scum) - On the Creature wagon.

I'm assuming you mean me? I think the Creature wagon is a good investigative point for us. I'm happy to put my reasoning and actions up against the others on the wagon:

The guy just hates to play Scum and he either lurks it out until lynched/replaced or posts nonsense on intervals and still gets lynched.

Happened in my last game, literally all of that, so yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.

There's my reasoning, I then was away for 24 hours and Creature turned up and has been playing well outside his scum-meta, hence I moved off. I also provided pretty clear metrics for why I was meta reading him, and followed those metrics.

Yeah it's been a whole day and he's been active elsewhere so I'm voteparking this until/unless something convinces me otherwise.

VOTE: Creature

&

Obviously I am still looking for scum, as it's possible Creature is town and there's another explanation - it's not likely though, based on my previous games with him.

There's a pretty clear difference here in my eyes, although maybe that's because I'm the other person and know my own motivations. Lalendra was convinced he was scum, I was saying lack of engagement = scum. Here's Shadperl though:

VOTE: Creature
I would hate for someone to be forced to play if they didn't want to, hence my vote.

So Shadperl to me is intimating that he both doesn't actually know the meta and is responding to the comment that "Creature HATES playing scum", and is actually concerned about the other persons enjoyment of the game more than he thinks Creature is scum...

Then you've got A50, I think his is well understood, he's still meta-reading Creature as scum in some unfathomable way, and both you and me have put reasoning as to why that's just nutso.

So you've got 4 people on the wagon and I think you have 4 very different reasons:

Sando - Just played a game where he lurked the whole time and was replaced and was scum
Lalendra - Creature hasn't posted so he's DEFINITELY scum, then doesn't unvote until page 7. Also apparently lied about Creature's activity? I think that's what Creature was getting at but I wasn't sure.
Shadperl - Basically plays cute and innocent about the vote
A50 - Goes balls to the walls against Creature even once he breaks his scum-meta

That said Taly, why do A50, Lalendra and me get a "Creature wagon was scummy" but Shadperl doesn't get a mention?

[Sando]

You say that Creature is a good person to investigate, but you're discrediting people that were on the wagon.

What? I'm saying the Creature

WAGON

is a good investigation point, not Creature himself. I'm agreeing with you that we should look at the people on the wagon.

Creature answers this in 175 I believe. NAI means Not-Alignment-Indicative, right?

I'm trying to confirm what Creature is saying is NAI, I posed two possibilities there. "Is it X or is it Y that you find NAI, Creature?"

Since your vote has changed, I'm guessing you're now thinking Creature is playing more like town? Is that based on meta or independent thoughts based on gameplay?

Better question; your vote on Creature was RVS. Did you expect a response to that?

Both meta and independent gameplay, which I think I've made fairly clear. He's well outside his scum-meta, and I think apart from some OMGUS I think he's scumhunting quite well and making good reads. Both of these I outline in my attack on A50.

I expected Creature to either continue to lurk and confirm himself as scum, or become active and participate in the game and I'd move on from the meta read. One of those has come to pass.

But, unlike the three of you, my initial gut read on Shadpearl was noobtown as I stated in 58, since this game marks their first posts on the site.

This seems like you're really desperate to read him noobtown and avoid actually looking at him.

On the Creature wagon. Was not voted by Doomfeathers for the same reason Doomfeathers voted havingfitz. Switched on Almost50 wagon after I discredited the Creature wagon. May have solid reasoning, so this is not a confident read.

Shadpearl was also on the Creature wagon. Shadpearl also switched onto the Almost50 wagon once Creature wagon was over, and has not provided any independent reasoning for any of it. I'd say that by any metric, if you're reading me scumlean based on those two things (and a scumlink I think you're saying with Doom) then Shadpearl is worse on the Creature wagon and A50. Yet you read town-noob?

Shadpearl has posted 4 times, 1 of which was a nothing post, so 3 actual posts. In those he's done two of the things you're saying is scumlean on me, and I'd say he's done them in a worse manner with basically no independent thought...yet you're falling back on noob-town.

[Sando]

@ The bold and underlined part; are you meaning that you haven't gauged the reaction you're expecting from Creature?

No, I'm saying that I expected one of two things, and that I got one of the two things. Either a) Creature would continue to lurk or b) Creature would become active. Option (b) is what came to pass. Creature is, so far, well outside of his scum meta, I got one of the reactions I was expecting to ascertain that.

Do you see Shadpearl in the town area?

This is what I mean by you over-reacting, the massive bold text with these types of statements. You're right that you put him in the null section, that doesn't change my argument that me and Shad have at best been exactly the same on 2 important points to you, and at worst Shad is much worse on those points, yet I'm scumlean and Shad is null. Apparently you're misunderstanding me, so I'll make my statements and arguments crystal clear here:

Statements:

I initially read you as town, I'm now reading you as null, ie you've slipped from town to null due to recent interactions in my eyes. I now also think that a Shad!scum would give strong indications of you being scum with him.

Arguments for why:

• You've argued that my vote on Creature is scummy.
  You've argued that my movement from Creature to A50 is scummy.
  You've null-read Shadpearls vote on Creature
  You've null-read Shadpearls movement from Creature to A50

This is despite that my arguments for voting Creature are articulated and meet an expected pattern:

• Sando votes Creature and says a lurking Creature is scummy (Post 40)
  Sando says he's VLA for 24 hours (Also Post 40)
  Sando posts 24 hours and 14 minutes later saying that Creature is no longer lurking and articulates why A50 pushing meta on Creature is scummy. (Post 133)

So that, to you, is scummy. But Shadpearls is "null":

• Shadpearl votes Creature and says he "would hate for someone to be forced to play if they didn't want to, hence my vote. "
  Shadpearl does not post for ~26 hours
  Shadpearl quotes Paradox and votes A50 with no independent reasoning

So to be clear:

• Sando articulates reasoning for Creature vote, half an hour later Shadpearl votes Creature
  Sando says he's VLA and almost exactly when VLA is over posts with reasoning on why removing the vote and gives reasoning for voting A50
  Shadpearl posts 2 hours after Sando's vote on A50 to also change his vote onto A50 with no independent thought given.

So when I do it, it's scummy, but when Shadpearl does the same with less reasoning and though, it's Null?


Can you now see why I think what is written in my Statement?

[Sando]

I just find it weird that you specifically asked for Serial Killer instead of just Scum. Almost like you only have to find the Serial Killer since he's against you, but not the Mafia.

Word games are fun.

People may have different scum meta than SK meta, I'd actually be interested to see some difference between those.

A50 is still up there for me, nothing has changed there, his posts haven't improved and he's ignored previous statements against him.

Doomfist, when you're rereading, are you saying things "as of" when you're up to? Are you saying I was lurking at the time of your reread, or that I'm still a lurker?

I'm really not a fan of a lot of the passing off Shad's posts as noob. It's condescending and I don't think it helps us to actually find scum.

I'm happy to see Aneninen taking some stands and action, felt a lot of his early posts was a lot of words but not actually saying much.

[Sando]

I didn't realise A50 was so far in the voting counter.

I haven't played many large's, but why is L-4 a big deal?

[Sando]

Taly vs. Sando is totally town vs. town and also pretty exhausting to read.

Reasonably likely, I agree, although I was mostly tying Taly to a scum!Shad and was trying to make clear that I don't consider Taly a decent scumtarget right now, however I shall be watching dem associations.

Not my thoughts exactly. Accusations don't have to be false to be scummy; it's very possible to think a read is scummy without disproving it. I've done it as town. The FOS is NAI (though I still lean Paradox scum for other things).

Disagree.

a) The FOS was based on a misread, or a stretch at the very least, where two people were listed next to each other in the same scumminess colour and they voted "for the wrong one".
b) Not disproving I can buy, but not even disagreeing with the reads I don't buy

Although I will say that it's probably a much better idea to try to improve your scumhunting than to avoid confrontations completely

I know this isn't directed at me, but I tend to be the same boat where I end up in horrendous 1 on 1s and it causes huge issues. It's not about confrontations, it's about not putting all your eggs in the 1 on 1 confrontation basket, it's too easy to manipulate as scum.

[Sando]

So in reality, you're just basing your read of a previous game where you were both scum,

rather than

what he's doing in this game?

Rather than?? It's COMPARED TO. What he's doing in here is what he did in that game.

Are you deliberately misreading this?

Meta read - reading someones play in terms of similarity with previous games with known alignments
Game read - reading someones play based off actions in the current game

You're being asked to confirm that you're purely

meta read

ing RATHER THAN (ie, INSTEAD OF)

game read

ing.

[Sando]

I think he's being bussed, and an easy-out way for the scumteam, and even an SK.

Wait what?

If A50 is an SK then what motivation would he have to do a "poor job" of defending himself? Who is the possible SK in this that you're referring to?

[Sando]

I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.

I 100% disagree with this, and I think you do too.

A50 is giving zero information, I mean just look at 313 for yet more examples.

You're saying TGP is creating associations...why would you want him to stop then? Maybe now that you've posted that it turns into "now that I know that he knows that I know that he knows..." type of game, but he's giving information.

[Sando]

Because TheGoldenParadox has not engaged in the game like Almost50 has.

Posting =/= engagement.

A50 is not engaged, he's posting, but it's terrible posting that provides zero information beyond him being scummy. I mean he literally just told me to piss off and that he would not respond to me because I'm voting for him... That's not what I call super engaged...

[Sando]

Am I totally wrong or was it a slip which I'd missed before and Doomfeathers has just dug it up?

Separate to others discussion on this, your vote was on Doomfist for what I think is his meta read on Texcat? You think that this is a scumslip from Lalendra that has been pointed out by your previous top scum pick? You've said Texcat's gameplay is something you're interested in for meta reads. Care to step through what you think has happened in the last few pages on this to lead to Doomfeathers!scum to Lalendra scumslip pointed out by Doom?

[Sando]

Disappeared for nearly two days

. And only two people bothered to talk about me. One of them just saying he was

okay with my Lynch for no reason

Mmmmmhmmm, sure.

Um, yeah? I'm stating why I feel a flip from TheGoldenParadox would be more telling based off already stated knowledge.

Ok I get why you think TGP is scummier than A50, even if I disagree, it's a matter of inches at this point. We're also arguing semantics, and I was more annoyed that anyone could consider what A50 is doing as "contributing" than the idea that TGP is doing less or more.

So what info do you see coming from a TGP flip? You've stated you think it's a bus on A50, so presumably you're saying scum!TGP = scum!A50. What other inferences are we looking at from a town or scum flip?

However, what if both Taly and Almost are scum?

This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.

[Sando]

Can someone explain to me why the A-50 lynch is even being considered?

Sando133

This is where mine came from.

[Sando]

I'm used to playing hard and fast. I've never played a game where the day phase lasted more than a week and Day 1 never more than three days at longest.

Either way, I'm gonna pull back on my vote for now and - well, not vote.

Sorry guys. >~<

After catching up, then rereading the thread... there just isn't really a wagon or person I want to jump on.

Yeah...this is why I'm not going to give someone a noob-pass like people have been on Shadpearl...

[Sando]

By the way, if you're going to keep calling me Doomfist, could you tell me who that is? (Not that I mind. It sounds cool.)

He's an Overwatch character, sorry

[Sando]

VOTE: havingfitz

Would policy lynch someone who gets away five days without being poked.

He's VLA til the 13th though...

[Sando]

TGP's replace out is pretty much NAI, right?

Your not reading the frustration or the apology he made as alignment indicative?

Given his apology was "overgaming" himself, and part of his other posting is /in-ing to other games...yeah it rings incredibly false to me.

[Sando]

I hate being ignored.

But he's doing it

skillfully

[Sando]

Sorta bad to come in just to say my gut is starting to think Taly is scum.

Sometimes I'm thinking the same.

I associative read Taly scum, but I'm not seeing much isolated scum behaviour from Taly. I just feel his anti-wagons are...off.

[Sando]

The idea that Creature of all people things we should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacement, and that havingfitz not posting while VLA... seems hypocritical at best.

Soz Anen, I didn't actually pay any attention to which queue, I'll see if I can find it, but it was just seeing an /in in his top 10 posts or so since posting here, so my reread of him might be thrown by other posts, I'll have a look though.

[Sando]

Also, whom do you associate Taly with?

Yep, saw the end of your wall, I don't feel in the same place.

I associate Taly with A50 and Shad, I've previously outlined why, I'll go dig it up if needed. But basically, looked to derail A50 in favour of TGP, and gave Shad neutral to town points for doing literally (yes literally) the exact same thing he gave me scum points for, defending it with "noobishness".

I find A50 independently scummy of that, Shad too for that matter now.

[Sando]

The idea that Creature of all people things we should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacement, and that havingfitz not posting while VLA... seems hypocritical at best.

Oooook, back from coffee and reread this, apparently I should have waited:

The idea that Creature of all people

thinks

we should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacement

slot

, and that havingfitz not posting while VLA

is a sign of scummy

... seems hypocritical at best.

[Sando]

Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.

That's one of the worst posts I've ever seen from A50, but a claim is a claim and I think we'll sort that out in the coming days.

TGP slot would be my second individually scummy slot but we're waiting on a replacement.

Shadpearl is probably third for me: Sando416 is where I'm coming from there for the most part.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadpearl

[Sando]

Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.

Yeah, you're acting visibly strange this game.

Super well articulated argument there Creature...totally convinced me it's not OMGUS, well done.

[Sando]

Never from what I can see.

Votecount 1.4 and 1.5 had him at 6, but I can see no votes or unvotes for him between them and then Texcat unvotes in 400. Shad followed in 414, part of which I pulled out of in my reasoning for scum!shad.

I can't see a time that A50 was at 7 votes.

[Sando]

Maybe he confused the time Paradox was at seven with his own six?

No. There was a time when we were both tied at 7 votes and I was waiting for someone to put me @L-1 to hammer myself and spit it in a few people's faces... y'know (Not yours though as you weren't voting me)

When? All of the Modcounts show you at a max of 6, and I've read through the interim posts and can't see anyone voting/unvoting you up to 7 and/or back to 6.

[Sando]

I'm not going to go back and do a VCA for you. Do a manual VC from the start of the game until you get to that points yourself.. or don't. What do I care?

I did...and I've just said that you're wrong.

You care because you're making a claim that is fundamentally false.

[Sando]

sorry, made a typo.

No problem. I got it anyway.

Profii: right now I think the claim is genuine.

Right now I think it's pointless to discuss the claim or treat it as non-genuine. We'll get more information in the coming days, and as much as I think A50 is an idiot trying to look smart and edgy, it's pointless as town to try and work with it during the day and make something of it. I don't think it puts scum in as fantastic a position as you would normally assume with a stupid claim like that, best we don't give them more information to go off.

[Sando]

Sando, I'm just new and town. Sorry. Not more exciting. You are welcome to wagon me. If it gets the game moving, it's all good I suppose. I'd like to be town together though.

I'm not believing that this is genuine. You've said that you've played on another site where it was "hard and fast", yet here you're self describing your own play as very uncertain. I don't believe someone whose experience is "hard and fast" with very quick days/games would act the way that you are.

[Sando]

or you're still terrible scum and you got (debatably) lucky that the real Doctor role didn't call you on it

There's 3 docs, we're not pulling 3 CCs just for one absolutely terrible claim from A50.

Even if it was just one doc, there's no need to get a counterclaim now, the doc could just lay low and either counter-claim later or let their death be their counter-claim.

[Sando]

@Mod

- if/when the backup doc becomes a doc, and if/when said backup doc dies, will their flip indicate that they were the backup who became the doc or will it just say doc?

[Sando]

sando's ISO makes me want to beat my head against a wall but the twisty pretzel logic is town

Wanna actual provide some, you know, logic, for this statement?

The amount of anti-A50 wagon without actually addressing anything strikes me as fairly telling for later in the game.

[Sando]

Well Flavourleaf was right I guess, his lynching did end up proving and proccing the backup...

Still happy with Shadpearl for scum for reasons stated.

TGP got to L-1 and didn't bother claiming or even hinting it

No he didn’t, his last post was saying he was replacing out, and he was at L-2. The post before that he was at L-5 (4 votes). Of course he didn’t fucking claim or hint at it. A50 seems to have a compulsion to lie about votecounts, and when that lie is used to ML a PR...

Happy to leave him alive for now since he's outed, but this is getting ridiculous.

[Sando]

As for the game currently, my reads are up in the air at the moment.

You pushed TGP hard and over your other reads because the flip gave you more information...now you're "up in the air"?

Um, yeah? I'm stating why I feel a flip from TheGoldenParadox would be more telling based off already stated knowledge.

I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.

[Sando]

Almost50 didn't die, and neither did Dino and, tbh that makes me not really trust either of you guys. >_>; Nothing should be scarier to scum than those who can take charge and hunt them down. So either one of you got lucky with an elemental doctor (Which clearly isn't the case with 2 dead) or I feel like something is screwy. Taly goes down the same path (being possibly more suspicious since she easied up AFTER we got a wagon going). Before Jay got killed, he (she?) posted "people of interest" with Almost50, Flavor, Dino, and Jimmy listed. I'd bet one could be a buddy but not two. So if one pops up scum on that list, I'd probably want to leave the rest alone. Naming both of your other partners in one post would be suicide, not distancing.

What part of this is newbie town again?

VOTE: Shadpearl

[Sando]

Please talk to me about how voting Jay and holding off on TheGoldenParadox until a replacement came, is being anti-wagon.

You can't be serious? We'd had a long talk about TGP vs A50, and I specifically said I didn't like your anti-wagon there. Here I'll quote myself for you:

This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.

1) Hate that Creature was boiled down to being OMGUS here even though he tried to start a productive wagon 522

How was this productive? How was what I said out of line with my previous discussion with Creature about OMGUS? How was creatures wagon well reasoned and not OMGUS?

2) "We'll sort that in the coming days" Love the doubtcast on a claim, though. ((Sarcasm)) But, you didn't seem to have a comment when Flavor Leaf did it and he was getting quickwagoned. 637

Yeah, cause, you know, associative tells and all...My last post of the day was ~45 minutes after FL claimed, and I wasn't voting him, and was engaged with Mathdino at the time. I was then away during the subsequent wagon. No votes had changed in that time.

Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.

VOTE: Taly

[Sando]

So the scumkill on Lalendra is interesting from a Mathdino reread.

Mathdino would fairly easily qualify as a townleader at end of D1, so either:

1) Scum thought the town-flip would destroy his credibility
2) Scum thought he'd continue to townlead so killed off a townread of his
3) They doc-hunted successfully
4) Mathdino is scum

I don't think 1 is particularly likely with a player like Mathdino. ISOing Mathdino on Lalendra he never came close to townreading him, null at best and I'd say leaning scum. Given Lalendra was backup doc and had no indication they'd have doc power until post flip, I'm not sure 3 is anything more than luck. That leaves 4 as the logical answer.

Anything could be the answer though, they could have VT-read Mathdino and thus simply excluded and ignored him from the hunt, rendering it null, or many other possibilities. But I'm giving scumpoints to Mathdino-slot for both not dying and Lalendra being NKd.

[Sando]

Taly, I'll be talking to you following the new math player or your ISO post on that slot

You've spent a lot of time talking about the 1v1 between Doom/A50 but have managed to temp. Retreat on math and obviously the doc claim for A50

Seems convienient - especially after all the stuff you posted about you being the mislynch- you'll have to forgive me if I said it comes across a bit LAMIST

This post makes like 0 sense to me. Taly is scum because he doesn't think doom or A50 is scum anymore on d2?

Makes sense to me, especially the A50 part.

A50 and TGP get into rival wagons
Taly comes along with "nah despite them both being super scummy, we should only lynch TGP today"
TGP is lynched and flips town
Taly no longer finds A50 scummy

I mean my statement about Taly (which you haven't responded to, just profii's and then lumped me in with) derailing A50 wagon onto TPG is followed very nicely by now no longer scumreading A50. Makes perfect sense from an A50+Taly scum perspective.

[Sando]

If someone doesn't see the flow in Sando's case: He says it's me+Taly, but he votes Taly over me himself when >I< was the original suspect to begin with. Like, if he really believed in his theoretical team he should be pushing ME first and only push Taly if I flip red. Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.

Oh right, so by your logic we shouldn't push a case on ANYONE else because they might be forced to claim? Why is pushing it on Taly any worse than pushing it on literally anyone else? Why did you push cases D1 and lynch a doc-claim if you think pushing people is scum motivated?

You're trying to make out that pushing literally ANYONE other than you can only be scum motivated...

[Sando]

You are pushing an A50-Taly team. You are not pushing Taly independently.

I voted Taly before talking about the A50-Taly team:

Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.

I've explained why the scumteam works, because someone expressed confusion over part of it, I've voted him for other reasons.

Like...read the post I voted him in maybe?

[Sando]

Did I say that?? Please turn around and pit the screen in front on you.

Here you go:

Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.

Why would I, as scum against town!A50 and town!Taly, feel the need to push Taly for a claim instead of literally anyone else? Like, why Taly? What makes Taly so special?

[Sando]

1) You do realize that my general scumread on TheGoldenParadox was stronger than Almost50, right? 323 - 364 = 406

You do realise I said "two scummiest" right?

2) Why are you still holding me to my earlier reads in D1? Hello, TheGoldenParadox flipped town and proved me wrong, WHILE Almost50 claimed doctor.

I'm not, I said it was scummy at the time, I'm saying it's still scummy, especially in light of a town-TGP flip. So I say "hey you're trying to push against the A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading A50, that's scummy". Coming back to that the next day and saying "hey you pushing against A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading on A50 was scummy" is not holding you to anything, except account.

In my view, it's incredibly anti-town to lynch through Almost50's claim at this point:

No shit, I've stopped advocating A50 lynch immediately after he claimed. You tried to tie me to TGP's doc claim lynch and failed miserably.

3) You say my 'anti-wagon' is odd, but you didn't even mention the times I've tried to pursue JaydragonKing up until my absence, and my further explanation of my push/read on him in my last post.

Because I didn't think that the Jaydragon push was odd...scum don't do scummy things 100% of the time. But you suuuuuuuuuure are desperate to get the cred for Jay flipping scum.

3) You simply wrote Creature off as "omgus-ing as usual".

I'd already discussed Creature's habit of OMGUS...read the thread ffs.

4) You then proceeded to doubt Almost50's claim without engaging with him.

Bullshit, here's what A50 said to me D1:

@Sando: Your vote is already on me, so I owe you no explanations. I was responding to someone who IS trying to understand.

The idea that I hadn't tried to engage with A50 or he was going to engage with me is just utter BS.

5) But you vote Shadpearl...? Seems like you're deflecting attention.

Oh my god I'm so sorry for not voting for one of the Doc claims!!!

1) 646 had NOTHING to do with verifying or debunking Flavor Leaf's claim, and this was WELL before the hammer post in 737 >> Why is Flavor Leaf's claim OK, when he's getting wagoned to be lynched, and Almost50's is still "weird"?

Why would it be? So if there's a claim literally all discussion must be about that claim or it's scummy?

2) And cool... Your last day post was 45 minutes after Flavor Leaf claimed, but almost TWO days until the hammer. You could have engaged with someone other than Mathdino...

Yeah...I could have...if I'd been at home to post...but you're now lying. It was not two days between my last post and the hammer, it was less than 24 hours.

Here's my last post: Sando last D1 post - Sat 3:23pm for me
Here's the flip: Flip - Sun 11:23am for me

For reference, I went to my GFs Sat night and got home around midday.

Nice lie though.

3) Actually, if you truly were away during the final votes on the wagon; 668 - 672 - 680 - 688 - 703 - 737

Then how were you engaging with Mathdino at all?

My last post was directed at him...it literally quotes him and asks him a question. Also don't be a fucking ass, insinuating I'm faking being AFK and also lying about the timeline is just a dog move. I went to see my girlfriend Saturday afternoon, stayed at her place that night and came back after breakfast on the Sunday, he was flipped before I got home around midday. Given you're also wanting sympathy for being away for considerably longer while also lying about the timeline...well fuck right off is all I can say.

If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?

I'm actually parroting him here, but lol nice try. I'm saying he was townleader (in the sense of directing a lot of D1 activity) and that given he didn't die (something he said was a high probability) we should look at what that means. Mathdino said him being alive meant his reads were shit, I took that further to show why it's actually somewhat scummy. All sorts of other things could explain it though, so it's mostly just something to consider going forward.

1) What the hell is this sentence? How, in D1, is a claim automatically 100% scum-motivated in your eyes, but you're not even pushing the wagon on the person that claimed? You're seriously painting everything about Almost50 out to be scum when in reality, you're ignoring him.

Maybe because you know he might actually BE doc?

Ahhhh, yes? I still don't think D2 is the day to lynch a doc claim, especially with a doc and backup already dead. How is quoting me responding to A50 evidence of me ignoring him though?

And finally, I'm not entirely sure how to quote this, but it's the 4) with emoji faces... Wat? You think you gloating about Jay's scumflip is similar to me saying "Creature OMGUS's too much, oh look he did it again"? Wat?

I'll wait for Sando to say I'm overreacting as a means to discredit me... again.

There's really no need, your arguments are weak, you're lying and you're drawing poor parallels. You did vote me something like 5 times there though, what's that about?

[Sando]

Sando says Almost50 misquoted him, but that's the second time Almost50 would have "misquoted" (the first being his vote count on Day 1, right?). It's possible he's just too lazy to go back and pull up specific posts for what he thinks are minor comments

1) A50 "misquoted" the votecount on himself D1, I called him an idiot for it, but I don't think I went after him for scumminess
2) A50 "misquoted" the votes on TGP and used that miscount to call the doc claim into question, resulting in a lynch - This is flat out scummy, see my 752 for reference
3) A50 misrepresented my argument above, by mis-characterising my vote on Taly as partner-related rather than independantly scummy. He could not believe me, although any reasonable person not believing me would call me out on it. He could have missed it, but then it was in my actual vote post, hence I think unlikely. Or he could be deliberately misrepresenting my argument, although any reasonable scum has gotta see I'm gonna slam him for that.

1 was fairly unimportant and I don't see why scum would lie just for the sake of it, it's just as likely to be a doc trying to justify their idiotic claim at L-4 or L-5 or whatever it was. 2 was flat out scummy. 3 is fairly null, I see scum and town motivation for it, but I think it's stupid play on either part.

Most importantly:

2 was flat out scummy

[Sando]

I'll reply to a few, just because you seem to really, really not get it.

If you believe in Almost50's doc claim, then why are you creating ASSOCIATIVES between him and I? 799 - 805
Why are you painting him as scum? Why am I automatically in a scumduo with Almost50 if you believe his claim?

1) I do not believe the claim
2) I think it's bad form to lynch a doc claim when you don't have to
3) I didn't believe TGPs/Flavours claim
4) I was in a different situation than A50s claim, I wasn't voting him and I was out the door an hour after it happened, hence different situation, different response

How does ANY of that not make sense to you?

Please, do not make this personal. I'm trying to understand what went on from your last post in D1 to the hammer. Thanks for clarifying.

Bullshit, you

flat out lied

about the times and then intimated that I'm lying about being AFK, all to make a scumcase on me. You made it personal, not me.

3) I'm referring to that whenever someone has pushed or voted you, it seems like you've written it off up until this point.

Please show me where I've said it about anyone's attack on me other than Creature's? Given I've just had both you and A50 vote me, shouldn't be too hard for you to find examples...

Taly, why are you attacking me for being away during the lynch and my single post soon after the claim not being anti-wagon enough for your liking, while A50 blatantly lying about the votecount in order to cast doubt on the claim and also actually lynching the doc, gets a pass? You're desperate enough to paint me as scummy you'll just make shit up about the timeline, but outright lies from A50 to secure the lynch on a doc claim you'll just ignore?

[Sando]

It's hard to explain how Sando thinks although I can see where he's coming from and I've seen it too many times before (and have been guilty of it myself in a previous stage of my Mafia play). Suffice it to say he's going "one-dimensional", so to speak, and he also expects everyone else to do the same. It was either me or TGP, so if TGP flipped green you should NOT have revamped your whole read list, but should have rather simply turned to me. Y'know.. it's a binary thing for him.. 2 competing wagons so one must be scum, but he is clever so he is allowed to rethink that,.. everyone else is not as clever and cannot think that way, so they must be scum for doing something he does not allow them to do.

It's the same as him repeated calling me an idiot, His way is the right way of playing mafia and everyone else who doesn't follow his rules are dumb or scum.

I've never said "well if you thought it was TGP or A50 not going for A50 is scummy", although I can see how you could get that impression. I said, at the time, that I thought it odd that on your two biggest scumreads you'd focus so much on one to the deliberate exclusion of the other. I've now said that backing away from that scum read would make logical sense in that world, where the push against TGP was a deliberate draw away from A50 ploy, and now that we're in a new day and he's got some cred for voting a scumflip he can start moving away from that scumread.

I'm not saying not finding you scummy now is itself scummy, I'm saying it makes sense in the previously expressed theory of proceedings.

I'm calling you an idiot/scum for lying about the TGP votecount to call FLs claim into doubt. That's not a matter of "if you're not doing it my way you're an idiot", it was just a terrible statement to make from you. You'd previously been called out for bad votecounts, which you petulantly refused to acknowledge. You then got the votecount and situation on TGP completely wrong or lied about it, with the stated aim of discrediting a doc claim. And then the doc claim was real. Yes, you're either an idiot for that or scum.

[Sando]

So, I would of course suspect Jay to have gone down that route and told his teammates, but seeing as he didn't see it in the first time (in the linked game) coupled with me actually outright claiming here rather than crumbing and hinting .. let's just say I'm not too confident it was Jay who directed the NK off me. I think it was something more perceptive, and that would be Annen (who was scum in that game) or Creature (who was town in that game).

Assuming you're town:

Scum watched you lynch a doc and watched your wagon fall apart on your claim, only I've really expressed strong scum leanings on you since then. I don't think anyone really considered you a viable D2 lynch target, so they're committing to leave a potential doc alive for a night.

a) You're also doc-bait, so that could cause them to look elsewhere
b) You're SK bait, so that could cause them to consider you a waste
c) They didn't believe you
d) They'd already got a doc so meh, worth the risk of looking elsewhere
e) SK is higher priority than docs for scum

Any or all of these could be true, as well as you being scum. I'm wary of reading too much into just C (which is basically what you're suggesting I think), much like I'm wary of reading too much into MD's reads pushing the NKs around in various ways. Worth considering but I don't like the idea of judging D2 on it.

[Sando]

I'm off for the next ~24 hours or so. Please note, Taly; 24 hours, not 48.

[Sando]

Taly's original wallpost against me was pretty much the definition of TvT, I mean he wants to paint literally EVERYTHING I've ever done this game as scummy. Scum don't do that, they look for small things to use against you, or they keep super quiet. Trying to look at the entire actions of a player and justify how every single action they've taken is scum motivated is a) silly, scum aren't scummy 100% of the time and b) not something scum are going to do. Figured I'd keep the fight going to see if anyone bit by now. I could buy SK, but I have NFI how to SK hunt tbh, especially in early days when they're just as motivated to scumhunt as anyone else.

UNVOTE:

@Sando: Try to imagine a world in which I am Town and can miscount because I do my own VCs and do not follow the mod's.

So...you got the votecount wrong...twice. I also know how to count. So you're either counting things that aren't actual votes, in which case it's not reasonable to assume that the votee would react in a "normal" manner, or you actually don't know how to count...or you lied about it. I am not basing my statement off official votecounts, I've manually looked through the votes between votecounts, and your numbers are flat out wrong.

What I am arguing though is that they indeed didn't believe me because I do fake claim/ceumb as town and I precisely did it in the most previous game with certain players who are also in this game and I even discussed it in this game with a flipped scum. I do fake claim/crumb as Town to protect the PRs and bait the NK, so those who know me and precisely those who played in that game could very well have very well come to that conclusion.

Yeah I can buy it as an option, just pointing out that there's plenty of options to go with. Worth considering for later days, but I'm not buying this as a scumlead for today.

Now, what IS your read on Annen?

Mine? Soft-town lean. Anen however is the main person who D1 who went "whoa we can't lynch an A50 doc claim" then blithely lynched another doc claim. I haven't seen any other interactions that struck me as scummy though, atm I'm soft town but I find him a very hard read. I'd put money on him not being SK though. I don't think an SK wants kill reasonings brought up late-game.

Seriously, I'm FoSing ANYONE who thinks I should've stayed with my reads early yesterday, regardless of TheGoldenParadox flip and Almost50's claim.

Ooooooo, you'll FOS them?! Scary!

What if the mafia team is Jay/Jimmy/Shadpearl?
Taly's the SK then.

I think this is the closest to my view atm. I think Jimmy is the weakest read I have there, and Taly is the only person I have any SK related read on, but it's very weak this early and I'm going to ignore it for now.

I'm going back to Shad. Fake-newbie, OTT daybreak, only responds/interacts when voted with basically no unforced scumhunting.

VOTE: Shadpearl

[Sando]

Now there's an odd vote!! You agree that Jimmy/Shad are a team, and there's a wagon on Jimmy and not on Shad, so you start one on Shad??

Wat? I said Jimmy was my weakest read, and I've been consistently reading Shad as scum.

[Sando]

Now there's an odd vote!! You agree that Jimmy/Shad are a team, and there's a wagon on Jimmy and not on Shad, so you start one on Shad??

I've just managed to sort the mis-quote out to see: this question is serioulsy valid.
If Jimmy flips scum, we'll definitely need to take a closer look at Sando (whom I townread anyway).

I'm fine with this. I def harder scumread Shad than Jimmy, by a fair margin.

F'ing hilarious that I'm getting this after the Sando v Taly argument though.

[Sando]

*Makes extremely heavy breathing noises*

Sorry not sorry.

Please tell me this was a joke.

Well yeah, no-one cares if you FOS them. Hell no-one cared when you voted me. But you did go balls deep on the TGP being more scummy and a better flip-analysis than A50 yesterday, he flipped doc and you've analysed...sfa really. People gonna talk! Much like I'm not going to be intimidated into changing my reads/votes by A50/Anen, no-one is going to be intimidated by your FOSing threat, nor should they be.


Shad/Jimmy/Fitz have posted precisely bugger all this game, either day, and none of it has been helpful to my mind. If there's not scum in there I'd be absolutely amazed. Shad is again over 2 days without posting btw.

[Sando]

Welcome LUV, good to have ya.

but I see the Jimmy is being wagoned. Will re-read him first before taking a closer look at the others.

Well this shouldn't take long.

Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.

Yeah, you're acting visibly strange this game.

This gives me a bit of pause.

What's happening here LUV? Pause on me, Creature or both?

[Sando]

Creature has more posts than anyone else this game. He's been less active recently but meh. His posts might not have a lot of content individually but they do have a lot when you put them all together considering how often he can post.

I looked into this Day 1, he had about 3 times as many posts as me, but by wordcount we were exactly the same. Given he's now twice as much as me, he hasn't actually put out a huge amount of content. It's been over 3 days now for Creature and Shad, and over 2 days for Jimmy and Fitz.

[Sando]

Did a bit of an experience dive on Jimmy.

He subbed in a lot later in Open 693

Just had a read, this was abandoned yes? Reasonable to draw conclusions?

In that same post, he feels that Creature didn’t answer his question which doesn’t make sense as well. I’ve never seen anyone use independent to describe third-party and if I didn’t know any better, I would’ve assumed Jimmy was referring to music. Noting that Creature didn’t answer is confusing because Jimmy did not attempt to clarify why he’s inquiring or what he meant.

I've heard Independant a few times.

The push from Jimmy on Creature does strike me as scum trying to look busy. There was basically zero attempt to actually lynch or pressure Creature, and points were not followed up. Creature is an easy target for this, as long as you're prepared to wear an OMGUS without over-reacting.

[Sando]

Mine? Soft-town lean. Anen however is the main person who D1 who went "whoa we can't lynch an A50 doc claim" then blithely lynched another doc claim. I haven't seen any other interactions that struck me as scummy though, atm I'm soft town but I find him a very hard read. I'd put money on him not being SK though. I don't think an SK wants kill reasonings brought up late-game.

Here's mine.

[Sando]

Pearl because I didn’t find his comment regarding my predecessor scummy and I recall it being harped on way too much for my liking. I don’t think it’s rare for someone to ask the crowd to leave someone alive even if they’re being heavily scum read or wagoned. It’s helpful to see who avoids taking about said person, who defends said person, etc.

What's going on here LUV? I don't understand any of these references, elaborate?

[Sando]

Pearl because I didn’t find his comment regarding my predecessor scummy and I recall it being harped on way too much for my liking.

I don’t think it’s rare for someone to ask the crowd to leave someone alive even if they’re being heavily scum read or wagoned.

It’s helpful to see who avoids taking about said person, who defends said person, etc.

What's going on here LUV? I don't understand any of these references, elaborate?

Pearl’s 43. Specifically his comments in regards to my first predecessor, Doom. He didn’t want him lynched right away and I recall him getting some heat for that.

Not what I at least found him scummy for. Also are you saying the bolded part is a towntell?

[Sando]

Well could you talk about why you did?

416 is basically that Shad claims to come from a "hard and fast" background, but is extremely tentative here. I don't find that believable.

772 is basically saying that Shad is faking newbishness. There's newbishness in terms of using incorrect scumreads etc, and there's newbishness in the "hay guyz I'm new!!". Shad feels like they're faking the latter, they're logic may be wonky, but it strikes me as a sudden spurt of competency that isn't naturally learned.

[Sando]

Yeah. Technically this is my new main but whatever.

If it's common knowledge who are you an alt of?

Read her signature

[Sando]

Well could you talk about why you did?

416 is basically that Shad claims to come from a "hard and fast" background, but is extremely tentative here. I don't find that believable.

772 is basically saying that Shad is faking newbishness. There's newbishness in terms of using incorrect scumreads etc, and there's newbishness in the "hay guyz I'm new!!". Shad feels like they're faking the latter, they're logic may be wonky, but it strikes me as a sudden spurt of competency that isn't naturally learned.

Yeah I'm still not following you on point A. I don't see how it's unbelievable for anyone coming from a blitz like environment to be tentative here. I imagine it's a culture shock. Having to adjust your approach and play style in ongoing game can be really daunting.

Ok, I disagree but whatevs. What about B, the faking of newbishness?

[Sando]

Just playing devil's advocate here. Wouldn't basically everyone on that wagon also be guilty of not wanting to kill off Almost50's doc claim and then also ignoring Flavor's?

Anen was much more vociferous about their objection to a doc-claim lynch than others. Yes everyone carries guilt over the mislynch of a doc claim, but some carry more than others. There was obviously town on the wagon, given sheer weight of numbers, so at least some of them were genuine. It's still worth looking at specific things to try to find disingenuous reasons for being there.

OTT = Over The Top

[Sando]

I seriously doubt noobscum would fake or go in depth with an analysis and opinion such as this. 941

The reason scum rarely wallpost like that is because it's hard to maintain consistency and look like you're truly scumhunt over long blocks of text. Shadpearl is not consistent in terms of their actions, and doesn't actually effectively scumhunt, actually suggests SK hunting. So yes, it's unlikely for scum to wallpost, because they'll probably mess up...and Shad messed up.

I'll do a read of Profii today, tbh I haven't got much of an opinion on him, but his interactions around the Jimmy wagon are pretty dodge though today.

Clearly I'm not accomplishing anything on Shad, we're all buying the noobtown. I would vote Jimmy but he needs to respond to L-2 first. I'm not sold on Profii completely yet, I'll read more in the next few hours.

[Sando]

Ok reading up on Profii, my scum!issues there:

a) Doesn't do much scumhunting, town-hunts more than scum hunts. This is fine, except from my understanding townhunting vs scumhunting, is you need to make some fairly strong town-reads as you're trying to reduce your pool and mostly rely on statistics beyond that. Also townhunting as scum is dangerous since if you're clearing townies then you're helping town hunt, and you're walking a line between town-confirming scum etc, you're basically giving a lot of info to townies. Profii looks to be getting around this with very weak townhunting, which is both useless from a scumhunting pov and doesn't help town by confirming townies.

b) Quite anti-wagon, is currently "scumhunting" within the Jimmy wagon, and has previously pointed to "being on bigger wagons" as a reason to vote Tex.

Overall, not accomplishing much and not helping town. I'd put money on a Profii scumflip meaning a Fitz scumflip too, but that's associative and I'm not sure on an independent Fitz scumread.

VOTE: Profii

I think Jimmy is scummier, but he's L-2 and away, I'll await his return, and I'm happy with who is on the Profii wagon. I see nothing either way on Jimmy and Profii, the interaction makes sense as either town or scum.

I'm away for ~24 hours (That's half of 48 hours btw Taly, which is how many hours are in 2 days. Ok I'll stop).

[Sando]

Can you point out the post where Shadpearl 'messed up'? ISOing you, I believe I know what posts you're referring to, but I want clarification.

I'm referring to keeping the "newbie" meta intact, which to me is very disingenuous. Not referring to a "scumslip". Also pointing to the complete lack of actual scumhunting within that post, since scum would find it very hard to write that much that is actually relevant and helpful...and Shad's is not particularly relevant or helpful.

Basically, I'll give town-points for certain types of wallposts, that is not one of them. I'm not trying to say "this post is inherently scummy", although i can see how I gave that impression. I'm more saying it's not a good towntell to my mind.

[Sando]

*Sigh*

Alright, I'll hammer profii if it comes to that, but I'm not sure why everyone we wagon gets swallowed by the lurking worm and then gets a pass for it.

I mean Jimmy and Creature were both prodded over 24 hours ago by my reckoning and they've both not posted in over 5 days now...it's not them being given a pass, it's the active people doing anything to keep the game progressing.

[Sando]

So, I'm looking and I know lurking is scum!Creature's meta for Day 1. Is anyone familiar with Creature meta well enough to know what Day 2 lurking means because I am not?

I too am curious about this. D1 does not match scum-meta, D2 does though.

[Sando]

So I'm still pretty sold on Profii, and a scumflip there would given massive scumpoints to Kopherald and Shad for pushing that lynch in the face of a counter-wagon without waiting for him to come back. Voting for pressure is one thing, you don't vote someone to L-1 to pressure the mod to do something about them, as Brass intimated. Apparently we're still sold on Shad-newb, so whatever.

VOTE: Profii

A50 is basically a VT claim at this point, although he's clearly not the SK. My view is that if there's a sole scum left then I'm happy with an A50 lynch, until then there's better targets.

I'm going with: Taly and LUV are not scum, would make very little sense to me for them to be scum. Could be SK, but I have zero idea about how to read that in-game, A50 is simply not due to it being suicide to fakeclaim D1 as SK.

[Sando]

VOTE: kopherald

This seems a little out of the blue. Reasons?

I don't really have any. Mostly just my gut saying this is most likely to not be genuine. I'm conditioned to marathon play right now

Wait, what's not genuine? Kopherald isn't genuine? Which part?

[Sando]

Also when you do claim on day 1 you are probably going to draw 2 protections - so survival can be argued as right element was used on him

Sure, it gives you a really good chance of survival into the mid-game and messes up the town-docs ability to actually save townies. But think it through to right now, A50 as SK really cannot win from this position, he's gonna get lynched or killed, and they're putting a massive, massive target on their back from scum.

Sure, it could be a massive SK gambit, but think about who is happier putting a target on their back whilst simultaneously messing with the doc protections... that's anti-independent conduct.

In the end, I've given you the time I'll lynch A50, and it aint today. If he's scum and we just keep missing his partner, I really don't care that I didn't lynch him, town has still lost. If he's SK, again, as town I need to find all three scum and the SK, and if he's tricked me it doesn't really matter to me that he lives to the end.

The other reason i wanted to go through all that was the A50 motivation for the fake claim was to win a 1v1 vs him and the now LUV slot and that scum read was based on some very loose meta of doom

Yes, the claim was utter bullshit and has been followed up with utter bullshit. He's either a doc who decided to lynch another doc, a scum/SK clearly fucking with town, or VT fake-claiming to protect docs and then lynching a doc... Look at those 3 and make up your own mind what makes the most sense, but regardless, unless you can give me a solid outcome from his flip then it's pointless risking even the 1% chance that he is a doc.

[Sando]

I also agree not a lynch for today, my point is we are not conf town'ing him by a long shot.

If you've read pretty much any of my posts the last thing that I could be accused of is town-reading A50.

[Sando]

Also, I wasn't sure about Sando or Lil Uzi Vert's votes, and I asked about them to gain a better understanding, but I don't recall getting a full response. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I typically go out of my way to talk through at least my initial vote on someone, this was no exception. You asked "assuming I was gauging for reaction", and I wasn't gauging for reaction, I felt he was a good person to focus mine and towns attention on while we waited for Jimmy to respond to his wagon.

If I provide reasoning in my vote post and people subsequently ask for reasoning without referencing what's already there, I'm probably going to ignore them, or sarcastically link them to my initial post.

[Sando]

I am guessing if I kept going at him he would keep coming back and my experience is big 1v1s like that tends to be TvT so I am cutting it short and calling it that rather than waste everyone’s time over the next 3 pages of us bickering

Not sure I buy this, you commented yesterday about how me and Taly were very likely to be TvT, and then you pulled the same manoeuvre I did and want to pass it off as TvT again?

What do you think of kopherald?

See Kopherald in the context of the Fitz wagon, you've got a person who it feels like they've been identified as the ML target, which Kopherald jumps into. End of yesterday puts a person who hasn't posted at L-1, which achieves nothing more than him being quickhammered. As I've said before, you don't throw a L-1 on someone who has basically stopped posting on the site for pressure, that makes no sense. The more I think about the end of yesterday and today the worse Kopherald looks to me.

[Sando]

No I'm saying you had this same information yesterday and you even commented on it, so your little tete-a-tete with Taly seems manufactured and insincere.

You read him Town for getting into a massive 1v1 yesterday, so you get into a massive 1v1 with him today before deciding to read him town again. Yeah I don't believe the sincerity of that.

[Sando]

Yes, I'm pointing it out for others benefit mostly.

[Sando]

The only good reason to call for a CC now is if my ALIGNMENT was still questionable, which is not the case. Hence, calling out for a CC only serves SCUM identify the last Doctor for sure to kill them tonight.

For someone who wants to be snarky about comprehension...maybe you should brush up:

Could: used to indicate possibility
Should: used to indicate obligation

Only one doc left. So we

could

have a counterclaim now.

[Sando]

You are all objectively playing poorly today. You're listening to this "gut case" from someone who has not created a single actual case, but does do a really dumb read list once in a while without any reasoning. Taly asked us to respond to this case, which is just absurd. And a case has been posted about Havingfitz and you all decide to ignore it and say "No, it's because he's been inactive." So, I beg of you, if the town still wants to win, stop being idiots and actually look and think. Yes, hold us responsible for what we have done during the game, but don't just go on gut reads on day fucking 3! Day 3 where we have not lynched a single scum. Try to think logically with your head for a few minutes. Most of all, try to make a goddamned case against someone ANYONE even us. Otherwise, this game is as lost for us as I think it is.

Ok hold up. In your (hydras) own words, the case on Fitz is comparable to the Jimmy slot, which flipped doc. Yet Ausuka is the stupid one for not continuing the same read that flipped town onto another person? Re-evaluating your reads is surely a part of this game? And if you want to lynch someone comparable to the Jimmy slot go ISO Creature D2, pay attention to timestamps. I pointed out numerous times that both him and Jimmy had been away for an inordinate amount of time, yet you've ignored him today despite it being fairly comparable (I even compared it for you).

1) Why did you put someone who hadn't posted in ~5 days to L-1? Was it to pressure an absent player? Pressure the mod?
2) Why was Jimmy a viable lurker-lynch yesterday but Creature who failed to post for basically the same period not?

[Sando]

Your analysis is off there Taly:

Anything other than a Doc Shad townflip confirms Profii is scum. How does VT prove he lied and thus scum not translate into Tracker proving he lied and thus scum.

SK doesn't prove the claim, it says either Profii is a scum and got lucky, or is the tracker.

Scumflip yeah, proves the tracker claim. I'm assuming an SK doesn't fakeclaim Tracker with the massive target that they're guaranteed to get.

People can bicker and waffle for the rest of this dayphase, but if there's anyway the town can be united in one form for once in this game, it is to vote with profii, and greatly push to help gamesolve.

Absolutely not. The claim is no more believable than A50s, especially since it tracks a flipped doc and gives a guilty of SK.

The n-2 I tracked Shadpearl who went for Anen so I am guessing he is the serial killer. Again tracked the lol hammer. You’ll note I wasn’t on the lynch of jimmy during this day

Why on earth assume SK?

Also, you got a confirmed Doc who subsequently got lynched after 2 doc deaths...surely you at least breadcrumbed this?

Jimmy - potential SK for similar reasons to Tex, particularly with that lynch but I know there can only be one.

Jimmy seems like an easy player to pick on, if he flips non-scum, I think we would need to look at his wagon - but I think he could very likely flip scum.

That's the extent of your D2 Jimmy talk...

I'm happy not killing Profii today, there's (almost) zero way he survives the night anyway as Tracker.

UNVOTE:

I'm not happy voting Shad (lolwat?), there's no need to prove/disprove the tracker claim even with a CC, we're not lynching a potential scum-bait just to prove a claim who then dies.

[Sando]

Interesting votes from A50 and Fitz there to force the L-1 and claim, out of ze blue.

So assuming Profii isn't SK:

Scum-Profii probably does not have scum on his wagon.

• Fitz pretty much conftown here
  A50 close to conftown, I don't believe A50 busses here, leaves him solo-scum with at least one person, maybe 2, promising to seriously look at lynching him at that point, I think he relies on his doc claim for now. Ok fine A50 can be conftown in this world.
  Scum probably don't put both in the same wagon, Kop and Creature get town-points
  Leaves Aus, Tex, Shad uninvolved in either wagon <- scum in here.
  Shad isn't scumpartner with Profii
  Leaves Aus/Tex as scum

Tracker-Profii has probably one scum on wagon.

• Taly/LUV/Sando main protagonists
  Fitz puts L-2 and A50 puts L-1
  L-2 vote most scummy, although with Shad in the game could be baiting the quickhammer from A50 (semi-joking only)
  I still don't believe Taly and/or LUV are scum.
  Fitz very likely scum, Shad is scum/SK, A50 further muddies the water and inexplicably survives the night
  Left-over = Creature/Kopherald/Aus/Tex <--- Scum in here
  Kopherald has pushed hard for anti-Profii wagon, townpoints here
  Creature is
  that guy
  
  Aus/Tex have sidelined themselves, scumpoints here

So in my mind we've got:
Scum!Profii = Aus/Tex as scumbuddy
Tracker!Profii = Fitz+Shad, A50 just itching for a lynch, but inexplicably survives yet another night. Aus/Tex again to my mind most likely scum partners.

I'm going with

Aus/Tex

+Fitz or

Aus/Tex

+Profii for scumteam, with either Shad or NFI as SK.

Aus has run the anti-train on Kopherald who is pushing the Fitz train, so Aus+Fitz makes sense in a Tracker-Profii world.

I don't believe any of the claims though, so:

VOTE: Texcat

[Sando]

OK.. I'm slow, but others (Taly) may have interpreted what profii said better than myself so..

VOTE: shadpearl

Can we not abrogate our responsibilities Day3 please? We've lynched two docs and gotten SFA from the wagons because of votes exactly like this.

Taly is at least providing reasoning, it's poor, but it's at least reasoning. Everyone else is just lazy and anti-town at this point. When you get a claim with a guilty, you don't just lynch the guilty with the sole intention of getting a read on the claim, that's just lazy and stupid.

[Sando]

But here's a slightly off-topic question; you seemed willing to vote Shadpearl and place a case on them in D2, but especially after his random hammer, you've pushed your attention onto profii, why? Is it mostly to find an associative-tell?

Yeah, and read my posts you'll see exactly why I stopped pushing Shad. I said, multiple times, that it's pretty clear town are just going to buy the noob-town schtick. 969 outlines why I voted Profii originally, I stand by all of that.

[Sando]

You stand by all of that and yet you're voting for me? Why don't you think we need to resolve the Profii/Shadpearl situation?

Profii is either town or scum. Shad is either town or SK.

Profii!scum gets CC'd today, or later, via an actual CC or a tracker-flip elsewhere, either way, as scum he's pretty royally screwed. He can hope he hits the SK on Taly and win the CC war with the real tracker, otherwise he's pretty deadsies as scum.

Or he's tracker, he dies tonight and has given us a guilty for tomorrow, easy peasy.

The only reason to lynch Shad right now is as Taly says, to stop us having 2 NKs. However:

a) Why did Profii immediately jump to SK conclusion?
b) Profii!scum knows his only hope of surviving is hitting SK/scum on Shad.

So it's a dodgy claim that also happens to be the only way that the claim holds up long term.

If Profii is scum we have plenty of opportunity to lynch him. If he's tracker we have plenty of opportunity to lynch Shad.

Also:

a) If we lynch Shad and get a town-flip, we now have a confscum Profii, who the SK is most definitely not going to kill since it's tomorrow's lynch.
b) If we lynch Shad and get a scum/SK-flip, our tracker is killed.
c) If we don't lynch either and play patiently, SK has to basically kill Profii since he's either scum or tracker, and real Tracker lays low. Also scum!Profii tracker NKing results in his own death anyway. Hell if they want to leave Profii!tracker up and risk another guilty, then we'd have two guilties and have already lynched today within the rest of the pool.

So what does lynching either of them gain us today? The track results are still going to be there tomorrow and there's at least 1, almost definitely 2 baddies outside of those two.

[Sando]

Excuse you! In my world, a guilty is a guilty unless CC'd. Do you CC profii??

No-one should CC Profii today, as per my last post. If you'd like to disagree feel free to pull apart my logic, but you're just making excuses for being lazy to my mind. Given you're the one person who we know definitely won't CC, your input would actually be very welcome here as well. Again, stop abrogating responsibility. There's a 99% chance of there being 2 anti-town players outside of Profii/Shad, much like lynching you is a terrible idea today, lynching within them today when we can look elsewhere for zero cost is also a terrible idea.

[Sando]

Having said all that, Shad should probably claim regardless.

[Sando]

So what does lynching either of them gain us today?

A scum. And some confirmed information that we can use tomorrow.

We already have one (scum or SK or both), we just don't know which one it is, we have a very good chance of getting that confirmed for us without a potential mislynch. The benefit is potentially stopping the SK kill, which the SK already needs to use to get rid of the tracker...

We have scum and SK in a very difficult position right now, regardless of Profii's claims veracity, throwing that difficulty away by lynching Shad is the cost, for what I think would be negligible gain, given above.

@Texcat Profii and Taly are both on the Shad!SK boat, but you say we've caught scum. Why do you think it's scum and not SK? What do you think of Profii and Taly assuming SK?

[Sando]

No we're not lynching shadpearl.

You, I like you.

[Sando]

Wait no I guess shadpearl is scum I didn't see the tracker claim. Ok.

I like you less.

[Sando]

VOTE: Shadpearl
Obvious play is to lynch this today and if he flips town we go for profii tomorrow.

Congrats on ignoring everything that's been said...great contribution.

[Sando]

Sando, talk to me about texcat.

Lynching within the profii/shad pool is a bad idea, and there's probably 99% chance of 2 non-town outside of that, so we should look for that possibility, here's my reasoning on Tex/Aus:

Scum-Profii probably does not have scum on his wagon.

Fitz pretty much conftown here
A50 close to conftown, I don't believe A50 busses here, leaves him solo-scum with at least one person, maybe 2, promising to seriously look at lynching him at that point, I think he relies on his doc claim for now. Ok fine A50 can be conftown in this world.
Scum probably don't put both in the same wagon, Kop and Creature get town-points
Leaves Aus, Tex, Shad uninvolved in either wagon <- scum in here.
Shad isn't scumpartner with Profii
Leaves Aus/Tex as scum

Tracker-Profii has probably one scum on wagon.

Taly/LUV/Sando main protagonists
Fitz puts L-2 and A50 puts L-1
L-2 vote most scummy, although with Shad in the game could be baiting the quickhammer from A50 (semi-joking only)
I still don't believe Taly and/or LUV are scum.
Fitz very likely scum, Shad is scum/SK, A50 further muddies the water and inexplicably survives the night
Left-over = Creature/Kopherald/Aus/Tex <--- Scum in here
Kopherald has pushed hard for anti-Profii wagon, townpoints here
Creature is that guy
Aus/Tex have sidelined themselves, scumpoints here

So in my mind we've got:
Scum!Profii = Aus/Tex as scumbuddy
Tracker!Profii = Fitz+Shad, A50 just itching for a lynch, but inexplicably survives yet another night. Aus/Tex again to my mind most likely scum partners.

[Sando]

You guys really need to slow down and actually think this through, it's not that tough.

One of Scum and SK do not know if Profii is the tracker, so their NKs need to account for that. If he's the tracker they both want to kill him, if he's lying then the other faction still don't know and want to kill him. If we lynch Shad we basically give info to killers to use overnight, ie they can react to the information before we can.

Scum!Profii = SK thinks he's tracker and wants to kill him. Scum search for the real tracker and kill them, so even if the SK doesn't kill Profii the tracker flip confirms Scum!Profii and non-Scum!Shad (Shad could still be SK). (Probably dead Profii and dead Tracker)

SK!Profii = Well scum know he's either SK or tracker, either are a super high value target, Profii gets shot. Profii has to shoot scum at this point to have any chance of winning, since his only hope is a doc protect keeps him alive for 2 nights and he somehow doesn't get counter-claimed. This situation is extremely unlikely, pretty sure Profii isn't SK, his path to win is gone basically. (Dead Profii maybe dead scum)

Tracker!Profii = One of scum or SK know he's the tracker, so they're going to kill him or scum. If Shad is scum then they'll submit with Shad while they can and may or may not kill the tracker, but they know we're not killing the guilty tomorrow if it gets to it, their best shot is to go for an SK. If Shad is SK, then he's just fucked, he can do whatever he wants. (Dead Profii and random kill)

In all of these, we know the veracity of the guilty claim tomorrow, and it'd get counter-claimed tomorrow anyway.

Ok so what happens if we flip Shad today:

Shad!Town: Profii is scum and SK knows they're tomorrow's lynch, SK kills elsewhere looking for real tracker or scum or the doc. Scum go for the real tracker with Profii submitting the kill (tracker can't find scum), or SK or doc. (Town lynched, two NK shots at town PRs most likely)

Shad!SK: Profii is most likely tracker and gets NKd by scum unless lucky doc. (SK lynched and Tracker dies overnight)

Shad!Scum: Profii is tracker and gets NK'd by probably both scum and SK, basically dead tracker. (Scum lynched and Tracker dies overnight)


By lynching Shad we're giving information to killers to use in the next phase. If we hold off on the lynch of Shad, we lose no information, and we are the ones coming into tomorrow armed with information.

[Sando]

Just something to consider about the possibility that Profii fake-claimed:

When I say scum/sk can hunt for a tracker if Profii is scum, I'm well aware I'm the primary target of that. If I'm the tracker, I'm ok with that, it's just a CC and I die, no biggie, at least we didn't lynch his directed lynch. If I'm not the tracker, suck it, NK-baited boys.

Scum!Profii obviously would be looking at me right now as the tracker, makes the most sense obviously. If they're Creature/LUV partner then they've seen my previous game where I called bullshit on the tracker and as a VT with no knowledge of tracks and explained why they were an idiot and playing tracker wrong, so I have history of doing what I'm doing now as a VT. Doubt in their mind is fantastic, they have incomplete information just like us, don't feed them any more info than you have to.

If I'm not the tracker, or even if I am, cover is provided by people following the plan and not blindly following a tracker claim. As town, you NEED to help town and stop being lazy. Anyone who voted Shad as town, you goofed. Anyone who voted Shad after I pointed out why not and are continuing to pointedly ignore me...you're blatantly anti-town, and at best incredibly lazy. If Profii is scum and the real tracker is me or anyone who hasn't voted Shad, you've just significantly reduced the pool for scum to tracker hunt in. They're 100% convinced it's me at the moment anyway so I'm going to keep this up and be the loud voice, but as townies, you really, really needed to be more careful.

That said, I will say I'm most definitely not a Tracker WITH a guilty. A tracker with a guilty other than Profii should claim.

[Sando]

If SK!Shad lives, he targets whoever he wants. His days are numbered. Mafia targets Profii who is the greater danger to them, thereby exposing Shad for town to deal with.

SK!Shad has one hope, that Profii is actually scum and fake-claimed with a fluke result on the SK. His only way out is to kill Profii and expose that he's scum and get the result nullified.

If mafia!Shad lives, they target whoever they want, probably leaving town still with the question of whether Profii was lying about his guilty. The SK is more likely to go after Profii than Shad.

Mafia!shad submits the kill, they know that's their last safe submit so they need tracker dead, or they can gamble on the SK doing it for them and the Doc not hitting the 1/3 chance. Shad gets lynched tomorrow if Profii is still alive and un-CC'd, I just kept your tracker alive for another night, you're welcome. The idea that scum are happy to ignore the tracker is just ludicrous.

If town!Shad lives, both mafia and SK do whatever they want. Both still want more town deaths. In particular, the tracker and the remaining doc. At some point we might hope for crosskills, but it's just a hope.

What? You're completely ignoring that SK and mafia don't share information, if Profii is scum SK don't know that, if he's SK then scum don't know that. Profii's faction can hunt, but flipping the tracker gets Profii lynched, but the other faction has either a killer or tracker on their hands...and on top of that we haven't mislynched Shad.

[Sando]

Take the vote off now, and anyone hammering should be policy lynched immediately.

[Sando]

^That was for Shadpearl

[Sando]

Erm, Sando? I feel like you're forgetting 1 thing - the killers and serial killer can all read this thread too, so they could just take pot shots on random townies. It's the easiest way to protect themselves from a lynch tomorrow, especially since Profii is lying so 100% he ain't goin' down tonight. >_>; If you guys think it would help, I'd be happy to self-vote. ^-^

Ok, lets keep this simple, cause if you're actually scum or SK you don't need this explained. So lets assume for this post that you're town.

Assumptions for this post only: Shad is VT, Profii is scum - done for ease of explanation.

Profii is therefore lying and 95% likely to be scum, we'll assume scum for ease of argument, this works both ways. The SK is "out there", we don't know who it is.

Scum know you're not scum, and they've no reason to think you're SK beyond what is open to everyone, ie they don't actually think you're SK most likely. The SK actually has no idea whether you're town or whether Profii is tracker, so they need to deal with that somehow.

If you get lynched and flip town, there's a big green neon sign saying "Lynch Profii tomorrow", and the SK can go on his way and kill whoever he wants. If you stay alive, SK now has no more info than any VT as to whether Profii is actually the tracker or not, so why not shoot Profii to check? Worst case scenario the SK hits scum instead of tracker, which is also good for SK.

Lynching you and giving your flip information to the SK is BAD if you're town and ensures that the SK does NOT kill Profii.

[Sando]

Sorry you hate self-votes, Taly, lol, but this feels like the best option. By Lynching someone else we just end up in the same place tomorrow. Give me logic to see a better option and I'll take it, but we'll just end up 'waffling' and wasting time tomorrow otherwise.

Because if you're town we either:

Lynch Town D3 (Shad) - Scum D4 (Profii) - Guess D5
Lynch Guess D3 (Tex for example) - Scum D4 (Profii or Shad) - Guess D5

How on earth is lynching you as town better than guessing? One is 100% and one is a guess! Sorry, well educated scumhunted target.

We will have an outcome on Profii or Shad tomorrow, OR...our tracker got another night to track, OR BOTH! Either Profii dies and we lynch Shad based on info from that, or another tracker dies and we lynch Profii, either of those resolve it. If neither happens, you know what we have, another track result!

[Sando]

No, I don't think you guys get it. Shadpearl has to be scum. There is no tracker CC.

Just...wow...

[Sando]

Sando - Why does “the other faction” play Rock Paper Scissors with me and the doctor (if the doc believes my claim and protects me) as opposed to letting fibbing!me plus “the other faction” make 2 night kills reducing town numbers

Assume you're scum and SK is the other faction.

SK knows you're either tracker or scum, if you're scum they should kill whoever they think is the real tracker. If you're the tracker they should kill you or they can hope the scum kill you, but they know scum might be thinking the same thing. But tracker gets better as the game goes on, he's practically useless early game and now with so few powers alive he can start to trust his tracks, so the SK really needs the Tracker gone.

SK kills tracker (you or the real one if you're scum) and Scum kills VT, this is WORST case, and it confirms that either you're scum or you're tracker.

Pro-tip, we didn't mislynch to get there if Shad is town, same amount of town dead in worst case, but best case is significantly better than that.

[Sando]

If the tracker thinks they're more important than a correct lynch, which they are most certainly not, that's on them. I'm not ever moving my vote unless a CC happens.

It's not about importance, it's about playing the hand that's dealt us in the best manner possible. I've literally laid out the entire plan and basically directed the SK kill, along with laid out what scum is likely to do. You're playing an open hand and you're refusing to engage. You're either incredibly lazy and shouldn't be playing, or you're scum/SK looking at the plan and worried about it.

VOTE: Ausuka

Same reasons as laid out with Texcat/Ausuka, but playing against town her without justification deserves the flip imo.

[Sando]

here*

[Sando]

Yeah so we could rely on scum playing how they're expected to and get scum tomorrow while we probably mislynch today, or we could get scum today and potentially reduce the amount of nightkills we have to deal with tonight. Just lynching the guilty and then going back to a regularly scheduled program of scumhunting is the best play here IMO. No need to play games with the SK.

It's funny that you can't actually articulate why I'm wrong, just gonna go with "nah, CC or I'm parked here"

[Sando]

I'll reiterate so as not to be misunderstood by those who skim for the jest of it all: IF, and ONLY if, we have 2 NKs, and Ausuka didn't visit either of them should the Tracker claim. If they see her visiting a NK, OR if she goes nowhere but we only have 1 NK, then she gets lynched without the need for the Tracker to claim.

Just FYI, if you're convinced on Aus getting tracked, then if Profii is scum he needs to die. Scum Profii is 100% the NK submitter since the tracker already has a psuedo-guilty on him. Knocking scum down to a sole person makes the tracker a psuedo-cop at this point. If there's 2 scum and Profii is one, the tracker will guaranteed get a nothingburger on the other one.

[Sando]

Scum and SK likely at havingfitz, Taly and Lil Uzi Vert.

I'm not believing Taly or LUV for scum or Fitzy for SK. Profii flip now says a lot, I think LUV and Kopherald have largely fencesat, LUV more than Kopherald, and now Aus/Tex are throwing me off since unless Shad is SK they've definitely voted their buddy in a 1v1 at some point.

An SK looking at my plan from the outside was the only person who would look at possibilities instead of "this is scary", and that was Kopherald imo.

Still a better plan though.

[Sando]

@Sando: That's exactly what I'm sayin. We lynch profii today and Tracker follows Aus (unless they have a better idea).

Cool cool, just making sure peeps have seen the implications of hitting a scum right now.

[Sando]

@Taly Oh. Is the tracker not just another name for the cop? ( '._.) The games I've played in the "Cop" role sent a PM to the Mod with a player name and the Mod sent back their role. I guess that's not how you play here though.

No, Tracker tracks people at night and gets a result of whether they visited someone. They'll get the same result for a doc visiting someone as the SK visiting someone.

Hence the claim that Jimmy visiting me is the interesting one, since because I didn't die, and there were two other kills, the only possibly outcome is that Jimmy was the doc. So the argument is, if Profii is telling the truth then he went into D2 with 100% knowledge of the doc and still said the person was "likely to flip scum".

[Sando]

havingfitz for last scum and LUV for likely SK?

I'd say Fitzy/Kopherald as likely scumbuddy for Profii.
LUV/Kopherald/Creature as likely SK on Profii-scumflip.

I don't think Kopherald is independantly scummier or SKier (it's a word now), but he appears in both my lists, so I'd probs go him if Profii scumflips.

[Sando]

Oh, I overlooked that.

So by profii's own results, he should've deduced that Jimmy was a doc since, if he truly tracked Jimmy and he targeted Sando, Sando would've been 1 of the 2 people killed... Profii knowing this much, should've stated something to derail Jimmy's lynch....

C'mon Taly, keep up

[Sando]

havingfitz for last scum and LUV for likely SK?

Oh wait, you think that if Profii is scum, Fitz would've put him to L-2 today? I knew there was a reason I didn't believe the Fitz+Profii scumteam, that was why. Thoughts?

[Sando]

@Mod: Replace me. Recent developments in my life have dropped my interest in mafia to 0.

All the best LUV

[Sando]

I believe that is the hammer.

My plan was still better, you're all getting

yelled at

a stern talking to in the post-game.

[Sando]

I'm not sure why Sando suspected havingfitz if he got no result N2.

I didn't really and I'm pretty sure I didn't vote him with the inno result. But to my reckoning with docs and SKs and such, it only disproved SK and even then there was only 1 NK N2. There was 2 scum alive at that point so only 50/50 that I'd hit the right one and not innocent the wrong man.

Also I thought the "this guy can't be SK" would be sufficient crumb and on Day 3 I knew I was basically signing my own death warrant anyway.

[Sando]

Yo Tex, would you have shot Profii N3 if he was alive after that claim?

[Sando]

From scumthread:

Means the tracker is experienced enough to play along. First thought was Sando but I think he's back after a long hiatus so I don't know if he'd be so smooth about it.

Pretty much the only thing I'm actually good at, handling PR claims (not actually using the PR, I suck at that). Sure I'm good to hand scum a few mislynches in the first few days, but darn it, I can turn PR claims into weapons against scum like it's no-one's business. Then again I've normally mislynched 1-2 townies by that point and town don't listen to me

[Sando]

No, I would still have shot you. It was pretty obvious by the end of day that you were the tracker.

Yeah the more I talked the more I figured it was just clearing the air for the SK (I thought you were scumpartner tbh). I was putting you at 50/50 in my lynchpool though so maybe we'd have hit ya and just been left with a single scum after killing Profii the next day.

A50 protects Taly from Water
Sando tracks Ausuka
texcat kills Sando with Water

Dunno why I didn't get the protect on me tbh though, I figured with that much telegraphing it'd come my way, plus it would have been the right element even.

[Sando]

When it's 2:1:1 always lynch town

Wait I read this and just went "yeah obviously that's right", but...

Why not, as town, set up the killers NKs? Tex agrees to shoot Shad, S_S agrees to shoot A50. If only one lies they win. If both lie town wins (this is important in this instance), and if one lies and the doc saves the non-liar town wins.

Due to the nature of the SK bulletproof, doing it this way would mean that in the event that they both lie yet the SK manages to live through it, town still win, where in 1-1-1 the SK would win still.

Plus there's a chance the doc saves and leaves you in a 1-1-1 anyway.

Seems like due to the setup, in this instance, 2-1-1 would be better for town...if they'd actually done some work to control the NKs.

[Sando]

Sando, I don't understand why you didn't just counterclaim, since it was obvious (at least to me) that you were the tracker. And why didn't you push the Profii lynch? I still don't understand the thinking there.

Well it apparently wasn't obvious to the doctor

The idea was sound, lynch outside of Profii/Shad and get the SK to kill the false tracker claim, problem was pretty much all the townies decided to not think it through and forced me to basically out myself as tracker. If they'd stopped to think about it before jumping in then we could have basically quietly ignored the claims and you'd have been left with very little info.

But yeah, basic plan was to get the SK to kill Profii. Unless you knew I was tracker from my first post-claim post?

But even if it failed and you'd NK me overnight instead, profii was insta-lynched the next day. Only risk was we were leaving the SK alive but I was confident Profii wasn't the SK.

The thing about it is, it took no special info from me as the tracker to know it was the right call, a VT could have and should have done that work and protected me from having to talk that much, but it didn't happen.

[Sando]

But yeah, basic plan was to get the SK to kill Profii.

Lol. I was never going to kill Profii (or Shadpearl). Never ever.

Then you'd have killed me overnight at worst and Profii was sitting there swinging in the breeze ready to be lynched. Or if I'd flown low you'd have killed a different townie and I CCd D4 with another result. Given I was pushing Aus/Tex, if we'd lynched Aus I'd have tracked you and vice versa, so unless you/scum hit me you were done.

We lost nothing by not lynching Profii/Shad, if we'd just ignored his claim and lynched elsewhere we had a chance to hit you, or the other scum, and help town immensely, not to mention give me a good chance of flying low and getting an extra investigate overnight.

Either I CC and die overnight or I let town mislynch a townie. What part of CCing and dying overnight is a better option than what I did? There's literally no downside to what I did, with a decent chance of an upside, especially if town had actually played reasonably and not just blindly gone along with a scumplan.