Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)
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Happened in my last game, literally all of that, so yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.The guy just hates to play Scum and he either lurks it out until lynched/replaced or posts nonsense on intervals and still gets lynched.
I hate the RVS stage, you'll get a lot more out of me in a RL day or two, muchos more than you would like I imagine.I love the RVS stage, and if I could have used the hydra I would have.
As for the Sando, I am awaiting the Kop head's thoughts, as the Brass head's just using a gut read that agrees with a Kop-head brain read.
Speaking of:
@Mod, I'm V/LA for the next ~24 hours (this happens most Wednesday nights FYI).- Sando
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I mean not like page2 is much "better" (worse?)...In post 35, Aneninen wrote:
Isn't it a bit too early to say that on Page1? Plenty of players had posted nothing.In post 19, Lalendra wrote:
Good feelings about doomfeathers; it seems like he is being proactive town by getting things going, asking probing questions and trying to get us out of RVS as quickly as possible.- Sando
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(Bolding mine)A50 wrote:Creature is OMGUSy by nature, He hate to be wagoned as either alignment and could very well SR his voters, I admit. However, his entrance was HORRIBLE. The "Town?" comment on an opening post by doom was silly enough to earn Creature a SR on it's own, even if he had to retract it soon after.Creature is GOOD as Town, and would not have commented on that post AT ALL if he was Town here. The bad play/nonesense still points to Scum!Creature, especially since that comment came while he was catching up, thus should have yet seen what I said about him (i.e. no way he OMGUS SR'd me as Town!him would still)
This is very scummy to me, firstly you establish that Creature apparently has 2 metas:
1: Scum!Creature lurks and gets prodded/replaced in his scum games (post 26 that creature just quoted)
2: town!Creature is OMGUS a lot but a very good town player
I would 100% agree with 1, I just finished a game a few weeks ago with him where he was scum and everything said about him applied to a T. I can see the OMGUS argument just from this thread,but to claim that he's both OMGUS-y AND a good player says that you think the OMGUS from him is not anti-town.
However, apart from the OMGUS creature has not posted anything "bad" in terms of being town that I've seen, and since you yourself basically don't think OMGUS is anti-town...why do you think he's scum? To get to him being Scum you have to completely ignore the meta that you yourself stated (because he's certainly not lurking and getting prodded), and also have not established any poor town play other than OMGUS, which you think is just "part of his nature".
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Almost50- Sando
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Is it really OMGUS at that point though? The problem with OMGUS is it muddies the water by overdoing it to everyone who looks your way, making it harder to see said scum-motivated scumreads when they occur.In post 134, Creature wrote:OMGUS is never antitown if you actually think the scumread on you is scum-motivated.
I don't think OMGUS play is particularly alignment indicative, however if you constantly do it then it risks the rest of town tuning out your legitimate scumreads on people attacking you as boy who cried wolf, which yeah is anti-town in making your scumhunting less effective.
For the moment you're well and truly outside your scum-meta, you're scumhunting, while also OMGUS-ing a lot. I'm putting you town but I'm wary of your reads due to the OMGUS nature (he says voting the person you're in an argument with).
Also my point on A50 is that he apparently agrees with you that OMGUS is not anti-town, yet also attacks you for OMGUS... I don't see any "bad play" from you apart from over-use of OMGUS, so I feel A50 is attacking you for your OMGUS while also saying that OMGUS is not anti-town.- Sando
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I still don't get it, are you say it's NAI for Paradox is point the FOS or that it's NAI for Taly to vote Doom over A50?Creature wrote:I responded NAI to "Taly voting doom over A50". My TGP vote is unrelated to this response.
Taly's 167 strikes me as a massive over-reaction to a poor post, hits me as a very (frustrated) townie reaction but it makes me worry about the reads a bit. It's a good point though that Taly puts Doom+A50 as his top reads and cops a FOS from Paradox in return that attempts to derail without actually dealing with any of the accusations against those 2.- Sando
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I'm assuming you mean me? I think the Creature wagon is a good investigative point for us. I'm happy to put my reasoning and actions up against the others on the wagon:Taly wrote:Saldon (Potential Scum) - On the Creature wagon.
There's my reasoning, I then was away for 24 hours and Creature turned up and has been playing well outside his scum-meta, hence I moved off. I also provided pretty clear metrics for why I was meta reading him, and followed those metrics.Sando wrote:
Happened in my last game, literally all of that, so yeah lack of engagement gets my juices flowing on Creature.The guy just hates to play Scum and he either lurks it out until lynched/replaced or posts nonsense on intervals and still gets lynched.
&Lalendra wrote:Yeah it's been a whole day and he's been active elsewhere so I'm voteparking this until/unless something convinces me otherwise.
VOTE: Creature
There's a pretty clear difference here in my eyes, although maybe that's because I'm the other person and know my own motivations. Lalendra was convinced he was scum, I was saying lack of engagement = scum. Here's Shadperl though:Lalendra wrote:Obviously I am still looking for scum, as it's possible Creature is town and there's another explanation - it's not likely though, based on my previous games with him.
So Shadperl to me is intimating that he both doesn't actually know the meta and is responding to the comment that "Creature HATES playing scum", and is actually concerned about the other persons enjoyment of the game more than he thinks Creature is scum...Shadperl wrote:VOTE: Creature
I would hate for someone to be forced to play if they didn't want to, hence my vote.
Then you've got A50, I think his is well understood, he's still meta-reading Creature as scum in some unfathomable way, and both you and me have put reasoning as to why that's just nutso.
So you've got 4 people on the wagon and I think you have 4 very different reasons:
Sando - Just played a game where he lurked the whole time and was replaced and was scum
Lalendra - Creature hasn't posted so he's DEFINITELY scum, then doesn't unvote until page 7. Also apparently lied about Creature's activity? I think that's what Creature was getting at but I wasn't sure.
Shadperl - Basically plays cute and innocent about the vote
A50 - Goes balls to the walls against Creature even once he breaks his scum-meta
That said Taly, why do A50, Lalendra and me get a "Creature wagon was scummy" but Shadperl doesn't get a mention?- Sando
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What? I'm saying the CreatureTaly wrote:You say that Creature is a good person to investigate, but you're discrediting people that were on the wagon.WAGONis a good investigation point, not Creature himself. I'm agreeing with you that we should look at the people on the wagon.
I'm trying to confirm what Creature is saying is NAI, I posed two possibilities there. "Is it X or is it Y that you find NAI, Creature?"Taly wrote:Creature answers this in 175 I believe. NAI means Not-Alignment-Indicative, right?
Both meta and independent gameplay, which I think I've made fairly clear. He's well outside his scum-meta, and I think apart from some OMGUS I think he's scumhunting quite well and making good reads. Both of these I outline in my attack on A50.Taly wrote:Since your vote has changed, I'm guessing you're now thinking Creature is playing more like town? Is that based on meta or independent thoughts based on gameplay?
Better question; your vote on Creature was RVS. Did you expect a response to that?
I expected Creature to either continue to lurk and confirm himself as scum, or become active and participate in the game and I'd move on from the meta read. One of those has come to pass.
This seems like you're really desperate to read him noobtown and avoid actually looking at him.Taly wrote:But, unlike the three of you, my initial gut read on Shadpearl was noobtown as I stated in 58, since this game marks their first posts on the site.
Shadpearl was also on the Creature wagon. Shadpearl also switched onto the Almost50 wagon once Creature wagon was over, and has not provided any independent reasoning for any of it. I'd say that by any metric, if you're reading me scumlean based on those two things (and a scumlink I think you're saying with Doom) then Shadpearl is worse on the Creature wagon and A50. Yet you read town-noob?Taly wrote:On the Creature wagon. Was not voted by Doomfeathers for the same reason Doomfeathers voted havingfitz. Switched on Almost50 wagon after I discredited the Creature wagon. May have solid reasoning, so this is not a confident read.
Shadpearl has posted 4 times, 1 of which was a nothing post, so 3 actual posts. In those he's done two of the things you're saying is scumlean on me, and I'd say he's done them in a worse manner with basically no independent thought...yet you're falling back on noob-town.- Sando
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No, I'm saying that I expected one of two things, and that I got one of the two things. Either a) Creature would continue to lurk or b) Creature would become active. Option (b) is what came to pass. Creature is, so far, well outside of his scum meta, I got one of the reactions I was expecting to ascertain that.Taly wrote:@ The bold and underlined part; are you meaning that you haven't gauged the reaction you're expecting from Creature?
This is what I mean by you over-reacting, the massive bold text with these types of statements. You're right that you put him in the null section, that doesn't change my argument that me and Shad have at best been exactly the same on 2 important points to you, and at worst Shad is much worse on those points, yet I'm scumlean and Shad is null. Apparently you're misunderstanding me, so I'll make my statements and arguments crystal clear here:Taly wrote:Do you see Shadpearl in the town area?
Statements:
I initially read you as town, I'm now reading you as null, ie you've slipped from town to null due to recent interactions in my eyes. I now also think that a Shad!scum would give strong indications of you being scum with him.
Arguments for why:
- You've argued that my vote on Creature is scummy.
You've argued that my movement from Creature to A50 is scummy.
You've null-read Shadpearls vote on Creature
You've null-read Shadpearls movement from Creature to A50
- Sando votes Creature and says a lurking Creature is scummy (Post 40)
Sando says he's VLA for 24 hours (Also Post 40)
Sando posts 24 hours and 14 minutes later saying that Creature is no longer lurking and articulates why A50 pushing meta on Creature is scummy. (Post 133)
- Shadpearl votes Creature and says he "would hate for someone to be forced to play if they didn't want to, hence my vote. "
Shadpearl does not post for ~26 hours
Shadpearl quotes Paradox and votes A50 with no independent reasoning
- Sando articulates reasoning for Creature vote, half an hour later Shadpearl votes Creature
Sando says he's VLA and almost exactly when VLA is over posts with reasoning on why removing the vote and gives reasoning for voting A50
Shadpearl posts 2 hours after Sando's vote on A50 to also change his vote onto A50 with no independent thought given.
Can you now see why I think what is written in my Statement?- Sando
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People may have different scum meta than SK meta, I'd actually be interested to see some difference between those.In post 263, JaydragonKing wrote:I just find it weird that you specifically asked for Serial Killer instead of just Scum. Almost like you only have to find the Serial Killer since he's against you, but not the Mafia.
Word games are fun.
A50 is still up there for me, nothing has changed there, his posts haven't improved and he's ignored previous statements against him.
Doomfist, when you're rereading, are you saying things "as of" when you're up to? Are you saying I was lurking at the time of your reread, or that I'm still a lurker?
I'm really not a fan of a lot of the passing off Shad's posts as noob. It's condescending and I don't think it helps us to actually find scum.
I'm happy to see Aneninen taking some stands and action, felt a lot of his early posts was a lot of words but not actually saying much.- Sando
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Reasonably likely, I agree, although I was mostly tying Taly to a scum!Shad and was trying to make clear that I don't consider Taly a decent scumtarget right now, however I shall be watching dem associations.Doom wrote:Taly vs. Sando is totally town vs. town and also pretty exhausting to read.
Disagree.Doom wrote:Not my thoughts exactly. Accusations don't have to be false to be scummy; it's very possible to think a read is scummy without disproving it. I've done it as town. The FOS is NAI (though I still lean Paradox scum for other things).
a) The FOS was based on a misread, or a stretch at the very least, where two people were listed next to each other in the same scumminess colour and they voted "for the wrong one".
b) Not disproving I can buy, but not even disagreeing with the reads I don't buy
I know this isn't directed at me, but I tend to be the same boat where I end up in horrendous 1 on 1s and it causes huge issues. It's not about confrontations, it's about not putting all your eggs in the 1 on 1 confrontation basket, it's too easy to manipulate as scum.Ausuka wrote:Although I will say that it's probably a much better idea to try to improve your scumhunting than to avoid confrontations completely- Sando
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Are you deliberately misreading this?In post 298, Almost50 wrote:
Rather than?? It's COMPARED TO. What he's doing in here is what he did in that game.In post 290, Kopherald wrote:So in reality, you're just basing your read of a previous game where you were both scum,rather thanwhat he's doing in this game?
Meta read - reading someones play in terms of similarity with previous games with known alignments
Game read - reading someones play based off actions in the current game
You're being asked to confirm that you're purelymeta reading RATHER THAN (ie, INSTEAD OF)game reading.- Sando
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I 100% disagree with this, and I think you do too.Taly wrote:I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.
A50 is giving zero information, I mean just look at 313 for yet more examples.
You're saying TGP is creating associations...why would you want him to stop then? Maybe now that you've posted that it turns into "now that I know that he knows that I know that he knows..." type of game, but he's giving information.- Sando
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Posting =/= engagement.Taly wrote:Because TheGoldenParadox has not engaged in the game like Almost50 has.
A50 is not engaged, he's posting, but it's terrible posting that provides zero information beyond him being scummy. I mean he literally just told me to piss off and that he would not respond to me because I'm voting for him... That's not what I call super engaged...- Sando
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Separate to others discussion on this, your vote was on Doomfist for what I think is his meta read on Texcat? You think that this is a scumslip from Lalendra that has been pointed out by your previous top scum pick? You've said Texcat's gameplay is something you're interested in for meta reads. Care to step through what you think has happened in the last few pages on this to lead to Doomfeathers!scum to Lalendra scumslip pointed out by Doom?Aneninen wrote:Am I totally wrong or was it a slip which I'd missed before and Doomfeathers has just dug it up?- Sando
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Mmmmmhmmm, sure.Jaydragon wrote:Disappeared for nearly two days. And only two people bothered to talk about me. One of them just saying he wasokay with my Lynch for no reason
Ok I get why you think TGP is scummier than A50, even if I disagree, it's a matter of inches at this point. We're also arguing semantics, and I was more annoyed that anyone could consider what A50 is doing as "contributing" than the idea that TGP is doing less or more.Taly wrote:Um, yeah? I'm stating why I feel a flip from TheGoldenParadox would be more telling based off already stated knowledge.
So what info do you see coming from a TGP flip? You've stated you think it's a bus on A50, so presumably you're saying scum!TGP = scum!A50. What other inferences are we looking at from a town or scum flip?
This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.Aneninen wrote:However, what if both Taly and Almost are scum?- Sando
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Sando133In post 380, Kopherald wrote:Can someone explain to me why the A-50 lynch is even being considered?
This is where mine came from.- Sando
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Shad wrote:I'm used to playing hard and fast. I've never played a game where the day phase lasted more than a week and Day 1 never more than three days at longest.
Yeah...this is why I'm not going to give someone a noob-pass like people have been on Shadpearl...Shad wrote: Either way, I'm gonna pull back on my vote for now and - well, not vote.
Sorry guys. >~<
After catching up, then rereading the thread... there just isn't really a wagon or person I want to jump on.- Sando
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He's VLA til the 13th though...In post 429, Creature wrote:VOTE: havingfitz
Would policy lynch someone who gets away five days without being poked.- Sando
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Given his apology was "overgaming" himself, and part of his other posting is /in-ing to other games...yeah it rings incredibly false to me.In post 459, JaydragonKing wrote:
Your not reading the frustration or the apology he made as alignment indicative?In post 458, Creature wrote:TGP's replace out is pretty much NAI, right?- Sando
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I associative read Taly scum, but I'm not seeing much isolated scum behaviour from Taly. I just feel his anti-wagons are...off.In post 508, Aneninen wrote:
Sometimes I'm thinking the same.In post 507, Creature wrote: wrote: Sorta bad to come in just to say my gut is starting to think Taly is scum.- Sando
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The idea that Creature of all people things we should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacement, and that havingfitz not posting while VLA... seems hypocritical at best.
Soz Anen, I didn't actually pay any attention to which queue, I'll see if I can find it, but it was just seeing an /in in his top 10 posts or so since posting here, so my reread of him might be thrown by other posts, I'll have a look though.- Sando
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Yep, saw the end of your wall, I don't feel in the same place.In post 513, Aneninen wrote:Also, whom do you associate Taly with?
I associate Taly with A50 and Shad, I've previously outlined why, I'll go dig it up if needed. But basically, looked to derail A50 in favour of TGP, and gave Shad neutral to town points for doing literally (yes literally) the exact same thing he gave me scum points for, defending it with "noobishness".
I find A50 independently scummy of that, Shad too for that matter now.- Sando
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Oooook, back from coffee and reread this, apparently I should have waited:In post 514, Sando wrote:The idea that Creature of all people things we should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacement, and that havingfitz not posting while VLA... seems hypocritical at best.
The idea that Creature of all peoplethinkswe should read replacements as NAI, that we should stop pressuring a scummy looking replacementslot, and that havingfitz not posting while VLAis a sign of scummy... seems hypocritical at best.- Sando
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Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.
That's one of the worst posts I've ever seen from A50, but a claim is a claim and I think we'll sort that out in the coming days.
TGP slot would be my second individually scummy slot but we're waiting on a replacement.
Shadpearl is probably third for me: Sando416 is where I'm coming from there for the most part.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shadpearl- Sando
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Super well articulated argument there Creature...totally convinced me it's not OMGUS, well done.In post 527, Creature wrote:
Yeah, you're acting visibly strange this game.In post 526, Sando wrote:Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.- Sando
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When? All of the Modcounts show you at a max of 6, and I've read through the interim posts and can't see anyone voting/unvoting you up to 7 and/or back to 6.In post 536, Almost50 wrote:
No. There was a time when we were both tied at 7 votes and I was waiting for someone to put me @L-1 to hammer myself and spit it in a few people's faces... y'know (Not yours though as you weren't voting me)In post 535, JaydragonKing wrote:Maybe he confused the time Paradox was at seven with his own six?- Sando
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I did...and I've just said that you're wrong.In post 540, Almost50 wrote:I'm not going to go back and do a VCA for you. Do a manual VC from the start of the game until you get to that points yourself.. or don't. What do I care?
You care because you're making a claim that is fundamentally false.- Sando
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Right now I think it's pointless to discuss the claim or treat it as non-genuine. We'll get more information in the coming days, and as much as I think A50 is an idiot trying to look smart and edgy, it's pointless as town to try and work with it during the day and make something of it. I don't think it puts scum in as fantastic a position as you would normally assume with a stupid claim like that, best we don't give them more information to go off.In post 574, Aneninen wrote:
No problem. I got it anyway.In post 572, Ausuka wrote:sorry, made a typo.
Profii: right now I think the claim is genuine.- Sando
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I'm not believing that this is genuine. You've said that you've played on another site where it was "hard and fast", yet here you're self describing your own play as very uncertain. I don't believe someone whose experience is "hard and fast" with very quick days/games would act the way that you are.Shadpearl wrote:Sando, I'm just new and town. Sorry. Not more exciting. You are welcome to wagon me. If it gets the game moving, it's all good I suppose. I'd like to be town together though.- Sando
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There's 3 docs, we're not pulling 3 CCs just for one absolutely terrible claim from A50.Shad wrote:or you're still terrible scum and you got (debatably) lucky that the real Doctor role didn't call you on it
Even if it was just one doc, there's no need to get a counterclaim now, the doc could just lay low and either counter-claim later or let their death be their counter-claim.- Sando
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Wanna actual provide some, you know, logic, for this statement?In post 642, Mathdino wrote:sando's ISO makes me want to beat my head against a wall but the twisty pretzel logic is town
The amount of anti-A50 wagon without actually addressing anything strikes me as fairly telling for later in the game.- Sando
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Well Flavourleaf was right I guess, his lynching did end up proving and proccing the backup...
Still happy with Shadpearl for scum for reasons stated.
No he didn’t, his last post was saying he was replacing out, and he was at L-2. The post before that he was at L-5 (4 votes). Of course he didn’t fucking claim or hint at it. A50 seems to have a compulsion to lie about votecounts, and when that lie is used to ML a PR...A50 in 663 wrote:TGP got to L-1 and didn't bother claiming or even hinting it
Happy to leave him alive for now since he's outed, but this is getting ridiculous.- Sando
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You pushed TGP hard and over your other reads because the flip gave you more information...now you're "up in the air"?Taly wrote:As for the game currently, my reads are up in the air at the moment.
Taly wrote:Um, yeah? I'm stating why I feel a flip from TheGoldenParadox would be more telling based off already stated knowledge.Taly wrote:I think TheGoldenParadox's lynch would give a lot more information.- Sando
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What part of this is newbie town again?Shadpearl wrote:Almost50 didn't die, and neither did Dino and, tbh that makes me not really trust either of you guys. >_>; Nothing should be scarier to scum than those who can take charge and hunt them down. So either one of you got lucky with an elemental doctor (Which clearly isn't the case with 2 dead) or I feel like something is screwy. Taly goes down the same path (being possibly more suspicious since she easied up AFTER we got a wagon going). Before Jay got killed, he (she?) posted "people of interest" with Almost50, Flavor, Dino, and Jimmy listed. I'd bet one could be a buddy but not two. So if one pops up scum on that list, I'd probably want to leave the rest alone. Naming both of your other partners in one post would be suicide, not distancing.
VOTE: Shadpearl- Sando
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You can't be serious? We'd had a long talk about TGP vs A50, and I specifically said I didn't like your anti-wagon there. Here I'll quote myself for you:Taly wrote:Please talk to me about how voting Jay and holding off on TheGoldenParadox until a replacement came, is being anti-wagon.Sando wrote:This is my concern, that Taly is leading us off the A50 train onto TGP to at least get a mislynch out of his partner. I don't like someone looking at their two scummiest reads and being so indignant at the idea of lynching one of them over the other.
How was this productive? How was what I said out of line with my previous discussion with Creature about OMGUS? How was creatures wagon well reasoned and not OMGUS?Taly wrote:1) Hate that Creature was boiled down to being OMGUS here even though he tried to start a productive wagon 522
Yeah, cause, you know, associative tells and all...My last post of the day was ~45 minutes after FL claimed, and I wasn't voting him, and was engaged with Mathdino at the time. I was then away during the subsequent wagon. No votes had changed in that time.Taly wrote:2) "We'll sort that in the coming days" Love the doubtcast on a claim, though. ((Sarcasm)) But, you didn't seem to have a comment when Flavor Leaf did it and he was getting quickwagoned. 637
Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.
VOTE: Taly- Sando
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So the scumkill on Lalendra is interesting from a Mathdino reread.
Mathdino would fairly easily qualify as a townleader at end of D1, so either:
1) Scum thought the town-flip would destroy his credibility
2) Scum thought he'd continue to townlead so killed off a townread of his
3) They doc-hunted successfully
4) Mathdino is scum
I don't think 1 is particularly likely with a player like Mathdino. ISOing Mathdino on Lalendra he never came close to townreading him, null at best and I'd say leaning scum. Given Lalendra was backup doc and had no indication they'd have doc power until post flip, I'm not sure 3 is anything more than luck. That leaves 4 as the logical answer.
Anything could be the answer though, they could have VT-read Mathdino and thus simply excluded and ignored him from the hunt, rendering it null, or many other possibilities. But I'm giving scumpoints to Mathdino-slot for both not dying and Lalendra being NKd.- Sando
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Makes sense to me, especially the A50 part.In post 796, Ausuka wrote:
This post makes like 0 sense to me. Taly is scum because he doesn't think doom or A50 is scum anymore on d2?In post 791, profii wrote:Taly, I'll be talking to you following the new math player or your ISO post on that slot
You've spent a lot of time talking about the 1v1 between Doom/A50 but have managed to temp. Retreat on math and obviously the doc claim for A50
Seems convienient - especially after all the stuff you posted about you being the mislynch- you'll have to forgive me if I said it comes across a bit LAMIST
A50 and TGP get into rival wagons
Taly comes along with "nah despite them both being super scummy, we should only lynch TGP today"
TGP is lynched and flips town
Taly no longer finds A50 scummy
I mean my statement about Taly (which you haven't responded to, just profii's and then lumped me in with) derailing A50 wagon onto TPG is followed very nicely by now no longer scumreading A50. Makes perfect sense from an A50+Taly scum perspective.- Sando
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Oh right, so by your logic we shouldn't push a case on ANYONE else because they might be forced to claim? Why is pushing it on Taly any worse than pushing it on literally anyone else? Why did you push cases D1 and lynch a doc-claim if you think pushing people is scum motivated?A50 wrote:If someone doesn't see the flow in Sando's case: He says it's me+Taly, but he votes Taly over me himself when >I< was the original suspect to begin with. Like, if he really believed in his theoretical team he should be pushing ME first and only push Taly if I flip red. Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.
You're trying to make out that pushing literally ANYONE other than you can only be scum motivated...- Sando
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I voted Taly before talking about the A50-Taly team:A50 wrote:You are pushing an A50-Taly team. You are not pushing Taly independently.
I've explained why the scumteam works, because someone expressed confusion over part of it, I've voted him for other reasons.In post 792, Sando wrote:Taly taking credit for Jay's scumflip along with basic incomprehension of this strikes me as extremely scummy.
Like...read the post I voted him in maybe?- Sando
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Here you go:A50 wrote:Did I say that?? Please turn around and pit the screen in front on you.
Why would I, as scum against town!A50 and town!Taly, feel the need to push Taly for a claim instead of literally anyone else? Like, why Taly? What makes Taly so special?A50 wrote:Obviously, he knows his wagon on me won't go through because of my claim, so why not push the other person and maybe we can force a claim there! That's all what scum care about.- Sando
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You do realise I said "two scummiest" right?In post 813, Taly wrote:1) You do realize that my general scumread on TheGoldenParadox was stronger than Almost50, right? 323 - 364 = 406
I'm not, I said it was scummy at the time, I'm saying it's still scummy, especially in light of a town-TGP flip. So I say "hey you're trying to push against the A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading A50, that's scummy". Coming back to that the next day and saying "hey you pushing against A50 wagon onto TGP while also trying to maintain cred for scumreading on A50 was scummy" is not holding you to anything, except account.2) Why are you still holding me to my earlier reads in D1? Hello, TheGoldenParadox flipped town and proved me wrong, WHILE Almost50 claimed doctor.
No shit, I've stopped advocating A50 lynch immediately after he claimed. You tried to tie me to TGP's doc claim lynch and failed miserably.In my view, it's incredibly anti-town to lynch through Almost50's claim at this point:
Because I didn't think that the Jaydragon push was odd...scum don't do scummy things 100% of the time. But you suuuuuuuuuure are desperate to get the cred for Jay flipping scum.3) You say my 'anti-wagon' is odd, but you didn't even mention the times I've tried to pursue JaydragonKing up until my absence, and my further explanation of my push/read on him in my last post.
I'd already discussed Creature's habit of OMGUS...read the thread ffs.3) You simply wrote Creature off as "omgus-ing as usual".
Bullshit, here's what A50 said to me D1:4) You then proceeded to doubt Almost50's claim without engaging with him.
The idea that I hadn't tried to engage with A50 or he was going to engage with me is just utter BS.In post 313, Almost50 wrote:@Sando: Your vote is already on me, so I owe you no explanations. I was responding to someone who IS trying to understand.
Oh my god I'm so sorry for not voting for one of the Doc claims!!!5) But you vote Shadpearl...? Seems like you're deflecting attention.
Why would it be? So if there's a claim literally all discussion must be about that claim or it's scummy?1) 646 had NOTHING to do with verifying or debunking Flavor Leaf's claim, and this was WELL before the hammer post in 737 >> Why is Flavor Leaf's claim OK, when he's getting wagoned to be lynched, and Almost50's is still "weird"?
Yeah...I could have...if I'd been at home to post...but you're now lying. It was not two days between my last post and the hammer, it was less than 24 hours.2) And cool... Your last day post was 45 minutes after Flavor Leaf claimed, but almost TWO days until the hammer. You could have engaged with someone other than Mathdino...
Here's my last post: Sando last D1 post - Sat 3:23pm for me
Here's the flip: Flip - Sun 11:23am for me
For reference, I went to my GFs Sat night and got home around midday.Nice lie though.
My last post was directed at him...it literally quotes him and asks him a question. Also don't be a fucking ass, insinuating I'm faking being AFK and also lying about the timeline is just a dog move. I went to see my girlfriend Saturday afternoon, stayed at her place that night and came back after breakfast on the Sunday, he was flipped before I got home around midday. Given you're also wanting sympathy for being away for considerably longer while also lying about the timeline...well fuck right off is all I can say.3) Actually, if you truly were away during the final votes on the wagon; 668 - 672 - 680 - 688 - 703 - 737
Then how were you engaging with Mathdino at all?
I'm actually parroting him here, but lol nice try. I'm saying he was townleader (in the sense of directing a lot of D1 activity) and that given he didn't die (something he said was a high probability) we should look at what that means. Mathdino said him being alive meant his reads were shit, I took that further to show why it's actually somewhat scummy. All sorts of other things could explain it though, so it's mostly just something to consider going forward.If Mathdino being scum is the most logical universe in your eyes, then why are you proclaiming that he's a townleader and transparently giving him scumpoints AFTER he's replaced out?
Ahhhh, yes? I still don't think D2 is the day to lynch a doc claim, especially with a doc and backup already dead. How is quoting me responding to A50 evidence of me ignoring him though?1) What the hell is this sentence? How, in D1, is a claim automatically 100% scum-motivated in your eyes, but you're not even pushing the wagon on the person that claimed? You're seriously painting everything about Almost50 out to be scum when in reality, you're ignoring him.
Maybe because you know he might actually BE doc?
And finally, I'm not entirely sure how to quote this, but it's the 4) with emoji faces... Wat? You think you gloating about Jay's scumflip is similar to me saying "Creature OMGUS's too much, oh look he did it again"? Wat?
There's really no need, your arguments are weak, you're lying and you're drawing poor parallels. You did vote me something like 5 times there though, what's that about?I'll wait for Sando to say I'm overreacting as a means to discredit me... again.- Sando
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1) A50 "misquoted" the votecount on himself D1, I called him an idiot for it, but I don't think I went after him for scumminessIn post 810, Shadpearl wrote:Sando says Almost50 misquoted him, but that's the second time Almost50 would have "misquoted" (the first being his vote count on Day 1, right?). It's possible he's just too lazy to go back and pull up specific posts for what he thinks are minor comments
2) A50 "misquoted" the votes on TGP and used that miscount to call the doc claim into question, resulting in a lynch - This is flat out scummy, see my 752 for reference
3) A50 misrepresented my argument above, by mis-characterising my vote on Taly as partner-related rather than independantly scummy. He could not believe me, although any reasonable person not believing me would call me out on it. He could have missed it, but then it was in my actual vote post, hence I think unlikely. Or he could be deliberately misrepresenting my argument, although any reasonable scum has gotta see I'm gonna slam him for that.
1 was fairly unimportant and I don't see why scum would lie just for the sake of it, it's just as likely to be a doc trying to justify their idiotic claim at L-4 or L-5 or whatever it was. 2 was flat out scummy. 3 is fairly null, I see scum and town motivation for it, but I think it's stupid play on either part.
Most importantly:2 was flat out scummy- Sando
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I'll reply to a few, just because you seem to really, really not get it.
1) I do not believe the claimTaly wrote:If you believe in Almost50's doc claim, then why are you creating ASSOCIATIVES between him and I? 799 - 805
Why are you painting him as scum? Why am I automatically in a scumduo with Almost50 if you believe his claim?
2) I think it's bad form to lynch a doc claim when you don't have to
3) I didn't believe TGPs/Flavours claim
4) I was in a different situation than A50s claim, I wasn't voting him and I was out the door an hour after it happened, hence different situation, different response
How does ANY of that not make sense to you?
Bullshit, youTaly wrote:Please, do not make this personal. I'm trying to understand what went on from your last post in D1 to the hammer. Thanks for clarifying.flat out liedabout the times and then intimated that I'm lying about being AFK, all to make a scumcase on me. You made it personal, not me.
Please show me where I've said it about anyone's attack on me other than Creature's? Given I've just had both you and A50 vote me, shouldn't be too hard for you to find examples...Taly wrote:3) I'm referring to that whenever someone has pushed or voted you, it seems like you've written it off up until this point.
Taly, why are you attacking me for being away during the lynch and my single post soon after the claim not being anti-wagon enough for your liking, while A50 blatantly lying about the votecount in order to cast doubt on the claim and also actually lynching the doc, gets a pass? You're desperate enough to paint me as scummy you'll just make shit up about the timeline, but outright lies from A50 to secure the lynch on a doc claim you'll just ignore?- Sando
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I've never said "well if you thought it was TGP or A50 not going for A50 is scummy", although I can see how you could get that impression. I said, at the time, that I thought it odd that on your two biggest scumreads you'd focus so much on one to the deliberate exclusion of the other. I've now said that backing away from that scum read would make logical sense in that world, where the push against TGP was a deliberate draw away from A50 ploy, and now that we're in a new day and he's got some cred for voting a scumflip he can start moving away from that scumread.In post 821, Almost50 wrote:It's hard to explain how Sando thinks although I can see where he's coming from and I've seen it too many times before (and have been guilty of it myself in a previous stage of my Mafia play). Suffice it to say he's going "one-dimensional", so to speak, and he also expects everyone else to do the same. It was either me or TGP, so if TGP flipped green you should NOT have revamped your whole read list, but should have rather simply turned to me. Y'know.. it's a binary thing for him.. 2 competing wagons so one must be scum, but he is clever so he is allowed to rethink that,.. everyone else is not as clever and cannot think that way, so they must be scum for doing something he does not allow them to do.
It's the same as him repeated calling me an idiot, His way is the right way of playing mafia and everyone else who doesn't follow his rules are dumb or scum.
I'm not saying not finding you scummy now is itself scummy, I'm saying it makes sense in the previously expressed theory of proceedings.
I'm calling you an idiot/scum for lying about the TGP votecount to call FLs claim into doubt. That's not a matter of "if you're not doing it my way you're an idiot", it was just a terrible statement to make from you. You'd previously been called out for bad votecounts, which you petulantly refused to acknowledge. You then got the votecount and situation on TGP completely wrong or lied about it, with the stated aim of discrediting a doc claim. And then the doc claim was real. Yes, you're either an idiot for that or scum.- Sando
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Assuming you're town:A50 wrote:So, I would of course suspect Jay to have gone down that route and told his teammates, but seeing as he didn't see it in the first time (in the linked game) coupled with me actually outright claiming here rather than crumbing and hinting .. let's just say I'm not too confident it was Jay who directed the NK off me. I think it was something more perceptive, and that would be Annen (who was scum in that game) or Creature (who was town in that game).
Scum watched you lynch a doc and watched your wagon fall apart on your claim, only I've really expressed strong scum leanings on you since then. I don't think anyone really considered you a viable D2 lynch target, so they're committing to leave a potential doc alive for a night.
a) You're also doc-bait, so that could cause them to look elsewhere
b) You're SK bait, so that could cause them to consider you a waste
c) They didn't believe you
d) They'd already got a doc so meh, worth the risk of looking elsewhere
e) SK is higher priority than docs for scum
Any or all of these could be true, as well as you being scum. I'm wary of reading too much into just C (which is basically what you're suggesting I think), much like I'm wary of reading too much into MD's reads pushing the NKs around in various ways. Worth considering but I don't like the idea of judging D2 on it.- Sando
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Taly's original wallpost against me was pretty much the definition of TvT, I mean he wants to paint literally EVERYTHING I've ever done this game as scummy. Scum don't do that, they look for small things to use against you, or they keep super quiet. Trying to look at the entire actions of a player and justify how every single action they've taken is scum motivated is a) silly, scum aren't scummy 100% of the time and b) not something scum are going to do. Figured I'd keep the fight going to see if anyone bit by now. I could buy SK, but I have NFI how to SK hunt tbh, especially in early days when they're just as motivated to scumhunt as anyone else.
UNVOTE:
So...you got the votecount wrong...twice. I also know how to count. So you're either counting things that aren't actual votes, in which case it's not reasonable to assume that the votee would react in a "normal" manner, or you actually don't know how to count...or you lied about it. I am not basing my statement off official votecounts, I've manually looked through the votes between votecounts, and your numbers are flat out wrong.In post 841, Almost50 wrote:@Sando: Try to imagine a world in which I am Town and can miscount because I do my own VCs and do not follow the mod's.
Yeah I can buy it as an option, just pointing out that there's plenty of options to go with. Worth considering for later days, but I'm not buying this as a scumlead for today.A50 wrote:What I am arguing though is that they indeed didn't believe me because I do fake claim/ceumb as town and I precisely did it in the most previous game with certain players who are also in this game and I even discussed it in this game with a flipped scum. I do fake claim/crumb as Town to protect the PRs and bait the NK, so those who know me and precisely those who played in that game could very well have very well come to that conclusion.
Mine? Soft-town lean. Anen however is the main person who D1 who went "whoa we can't lynch an A50 doc claim" then blithely lynched another doc claim. I haven't seen any other interactions that struck me as scummy though, atm I'm soft town but I find him a very hard read. I'd put money on him not being SK though. I don't think an SK wants kill reasonings brought up late-game.A50 wrote:Now, what IS your read on Annen?
Ooooooo, you'll FOS them?! Scary!Taly wrote:Seriously, I'm FoSing ANYONE who thinks I should've stayed with my reads early yesterday, regardless of TheGoldenParadox flip and Almost50's claim.
I think this is the closest to my view atm. I think Jimmy is the weakest read I have there, and Taly is the only person I have any SK related read on, but it's very weak this early and I'm going to ignore it for now.Anen wrote:What if the mafia team is Jay/Jimmy/Shadpearl?
Taly's the SK then.
I'm going back to Shad. Fake-newbie, OTT daybreak, only responds/interacts when voted with basically no unforced scumhunting.
VOTE: Shadpearl- Sando
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Wat? I said Jimmy was my weakest read, and I've been consistently reading Shad as scum.In post 851, Almost50 wrote:Now there's an odd vote!! You agree that Jimmy/Shad are a team, and there's a wagon on Jimmy and not on Shad, so you start one on Shad??- Sando
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I'm fine with this. I def harder scumread Shad than Jimmy, by a fair margin.In post 857, Aneninen wrote:
I've just managed to sort the mis-quote out to see: this question is serioulsy valid.In post 851, Almost50 wrote:Now there's an odd vote!! You agree that Jimmy/Shad are a team, and there's a wagon on Jimmy and not on Shad, so you start one on Shad??
If Jimmy flips scum, we'll definitely need to take a closer look at Sando (whom I townread anyway).
F'ing hilarious that I'm getting this after the Sando v Taly argument though.- Sando
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Sorry not sorry.In post 867, Taly wrote:*Makes extremely heavy breathing noises*
Well yeah, no-one cares if you FOS them. Hell no-one cared when you voted me. But you did go balls deep on the TGP being more scummy and a better flip-analysis than A50 yesterday, he flipped doc and you've analysed...sfa really. People gonna talk! Much like I'm not going to be intimidated into changing my reads/votes by A50/Anen, no-one is going to be intimidated by your FOSing threat, nor should they be.Taly wrote:Please tell me this was a joke.
Shad/Jimmy/Fitz have posted precisely bugger all this game, either day, and none of it has been helpful to my mind. If there's not scum in there I'd be absolutely amazed. Shad is again over 2 days without posting btw.- Sando
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Welcome LUV, good to have ya.
Well this shouldn't take long.In post 886, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:but I see the Jimmy is being wagoned. Will re-read him first before taking a closer look at the others.
What's happening here LUV? Pause on me, Creature or both?In post 884, Lil Uzi Vert wrote:
This gives me a bit of pause.In post 527, Creature wrote:
Yeah, you're acting visibly strange this game.In post 526, Sando wrote:Oh look, more OMGUS from Creature...colour me surprised.- Sando
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I looked into this Day 1, he had about 3 times as many posts as me, but by wordcount we were exactly the same. Given he's now twice as much as me, he hasn't actually put out a huge amount of content. It's been over 3 days now for Creature and Shad, and over 2 days for Jimmy and Fitz.In post 904, Ausuka wrote:Creature has more posts than anyone else this game. He's been less active recently but meh. His posts might not have a lot of content individually but they do have a lot when you put them all together considering how often he can post. - Sando
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