Micro 790: Life After Death - Game Over

[GuiltyLion]

not hammering so I'm basically conftown

I agree 6 is a fairly scummy opening post

[GuiltyLion]

Also this looks diffferent from a town!Lion that I played with in newbie soccer or something like that.

How can you meaningfully say that I look "different" based off of my single opening post, or even honestly believe that you can compare me between these two games already?

a) I had an entire ISO's worth of material in that game by the time you replaced in, whereas I have done nothing in this game because it just started
b) That was a Newbie game and I try to be a little bit more patient/thorough in Newbie games
c) I was an IC that game so I had extra responsibility to be as helpful and transparent as possible and to take a bit of a "town leader" role

that said, I think Archwing townreading me looks more fake than Dovetail or TGP scumreading me. Slightly townreading NSG for calling him out about it
VOTE: Archwing

[GuiltyLion]

not hammering so I'm basically conftown

Guilty Lion

why call this out but then vote Srceenplay? what's your read on Archwing?

[GuiltyLion]

{Dovetail, Srceenplay}
{NSG}
{TGP}
{ZZZX, Archwing}

[GuiltyLion]

Arch is this genuinely some kind of a post restriction or are you playing minimalist just for kicks?

ZZZX if it was "dumb not scum" then why call it out?

[GuiltyLion]

Arch is this genuinely some kind of a post restriction or are you playing minimalist just for kicks?

ZZZX if it was "dumb not scum" then why call it out?

Because why not?

this isn't an answer to my question, it's a dodge.

I think it's scummy to shade something that you don't find indicative at all - town don't really have the mentality/incentive to do that. I had to press you on what " " meant in that context, and then the fact that apparently it's NAI for you means that your original post was a meaningless empty post - more likely to come from scum commenting just for the sake of commenting. I caught scum!Kop in a similar fashion recently.

faking a Post restriction is NaI. And pretending its a scum read is scummy though. He could push arch for legit reasons but he is trying to fake .

Only scum fakes.

I don't think Srceenplay (or anyone for that matter) is pushing on Arch for the reason of faking a post restriction

[GuiltyLion]

Screenplay goes

Then dove goes

Huh

?

not hammering so I'm basically conftown

I agree 6 is a fairly scummy opening post

scrape for towncred by not hammering while simultaneously voicing support for the wagon you have the opportunity to hammer looks very awkward.

do you really believe this?

also, what do your reads look like now?

uhh yes I do believe that. I gather you disagree.

I'm townreading you and tgp. srceen less so but still up there, though he is being kind of odd.

don't feel strongly either way about arch.

scumreading zzzx and guilty. guilty moreso.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

Frankly I don't see a lot of thought in your reads here. Why does scum!Guilty open the game with an "awkward" support for your wagon but then move you to a townread? What would have been the point of that? And if you're both scumreading ZZZX and myself then how are you looking at our interactions? SvS?

[GuiltyLion]

tbh I don't care about your interactions and relative alignments at this point at all. I'm looking for independent scumminess.

the way you seemed to consider my reasons for scumreading you totally fine here and later put me as a top townread:

that said, I think Archwing townreading me looks more fake than Dovetail or TGP scumreading me. Slightly townreading NSG for calling him out about it
VOTE: Archwing

{Dovetail, Srceenplay}
{NSG}
{TGP}
{ZZZX, Archwing}

but suddenly kick up a fuss when I actually vote you looks like you're not really interested my reasons at all because then they would have bothered you in the first place. I didn't vote you in 37 because zzzx still hadn't posted, and I wanted to see their entrance before moving my vote off them. now I can compare you both, and I find you scummier.

you opened with awkward support

while I was at L-1

, which looked like you potentially angling to hammer if I stayed there. then srceen unvoted in 38, tgp unvoted in 40 and then whoa hey you've got me as a townread. the only thing you said about me up until that point was that my opening post was scummy and someone else's scumread of you was "more fake" than mine.

I don't care about you scumreading me when I have a single opening post, I do care when you continue to scumread me for that single post and don't seem to react to new information, especially new information that I am personally providing. You're putting far too much stock in an offhand comment and not bothering to think about the real content I then put into the game afterwards. The idea that I was "angling to hammer" on page 1 is ridiculous, anyone who knows me knows that I take as much time as possible before deciding to lynch and that I would never hammer early D1. I started to townread you because I thought your posts

after

6 indicated a town mindset, not because other players unvoted you.

also - even though I am not scumreading you, I am still going to get fussy about votes on me regardless. Votes on me are votes for a mislynch, even if I think they are coming from town.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: paradox

This seems

extremely

oppurtunistic. This slot should be analyzed later if we get a guilty townflip. If it's scum, it's less indicative, but still decently likely scum.
Honestly I have nothing much to contribute here, except the L-1 VOTE: Archwing
I feel this slot is scum, and I'll compromise if we're willing to lynch Guilty tomorrow.

i'm pretty sure everything about this post itself is opportunistic.

I agree TGP's post looks opportunistic, but I don't immediately see that as scummy. Wouldn't scum!TGP be aware of the apparent hypocrisy in accusing another player of opportunistically voting a wagon to then opportunistically vote a wagon?

[GuiltyLion]

EBWOP - whoops wait I forgot who TGP voted, he was talking about Dovetail but then voting Archwing - doesn't change my point though, just change the last question to "Wouldn't scum!TGP be aware of the apparent hypocrisy in accusing another player of opportunistically voting a wagon while opportunistically voting another wagon?"

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: TGP

VOTE: Tgp

Can you explain?

aren't you scumreading Archwing? what did you expect him to say?

also welcome Almost50! please spice up this game because it's been slow af

[GuiltyLion]

oh come on A50, you can be spicier than this

GL hardtrying = Scum!GL

no it's the exact opposite

[GuiltyLion]

oh that was in fact hammer wasn't it

well nvm that's a spicy entrance

[GuiltyLion]

Screenplay I'm offended by that vote

Scum on the wagon is Almost or Archwing. Scum off the wagon is ZZZX. I'm fairly confident in a ZZZX scumflip so I'd like to see if anyone has any good reasons for townreading him

VOTE: ZZZX

[GuiltyLion]

Archwing if I'm wrong about ya then join me on the ZZZX justice wagon

[GuiltyLion]

Srceenplay I didn't think you were going to just hammer that

[GuiltyLion]

I need to do a full reset

[GuiltyLion]

not hammering if that's worth anything

[GuiltyLion]

I considered the "trolled by the flips" idea, but who do you think is scum that we lynched then? I'd need to feel like it's

more likely

that we lynched scum who flipped-as-town than it is we mislynched twice, and given the fact that it's only been 7 pages with two turbo hammers I find that hard to swallow

[GuiltyLion]

would mass claim be a good idea or would that introduce more opportunity for scum to manipulate?

[GuiltyLion]

Screen you should unvote in case of Archwing+Almost

[GuiltyLion]

inb4 we are all VTs and it's a troll game

actually this might be a townslip bc I'm not sure if scum would assume no PRs unless they know something about the setup

[GuiltyLion]

i still think my reasoning for arch being town makes sense, i think he's more likely to do the boon bit in a towngame than in a scumgame (which more people take seriously). i also think that him keeping it up even while at L-1 is more likely to come from town who's more committed to the bit itself than scum who might stop doing the post restriction thing to preserve themselves.

I don't think this is that good of a reason to town clear Archwing, especially after his votes on both mislynch wagons

the bit gives him a convenient excuse to not provide substantiated reasoning, and wouldn't be that hard to stick with as scum. plus it's a micro bastard game and he might be on good terms with his partner, which means he wouldn't have to take it "seriously". PLUS, once he did start with it, it would look more suspicious to suddenly get serious at L-1, so I don't think scum!Archwing would reverse course at the first instance of serious pressure.

I'm not saying he's scum for the bit, but I don't think he's town for it either

[GuiltyLion]

also now that we've had two mislynches and are down to five I'd really like to see Archwing drop the bit and start giving more serious content

[GuiltyLion]

OK.. assuming there IS scum in the game, and assuming there are also PRs.. when the hell do they do their checks? If they are a Day Cop they should have at least 2 good results by now (and that's assuming one of their 3 checks got lynched, because assuming they check exactly the person that gets lynched on the day of their lynch is just too farfetched in my mind). So, 2 clears + the Cop themselves and the game should be over!

So..

@GL: I don't think I slipped (although it would be GOOD for me to assume I Town slipped for once), but I really don't think there are any PRs in this game.

yeah see you're assuming that there isn't other stuff that can happen post lynch (vengeful, supersaint, etc) or during the day. So I'm gonna go ahead and prove that wrong now

DAYVIG: Archwing

[GuiltyLion]

the day vig was very real

[GuiltyLion]

Smh. Okay so anyone know wtf is going on here?

no

my first thought was either we're getting trolled with the flips or it is all VT game. maybe there's some kind of second game going on with the lynched players, maybe the winner is just whoever survives

but then Almost made some weird assumptions which make me think he could be slightly more informed about the setup. I don't even know if it means scum or not but I think lynching him is better than lynching me regardless. case/argument in next post (cause I don't want to go back and grab another quote)

[GuiltyLion]

Bwahahahahahaha ..

So, I take it that when we lynch Mafia THEY get rewarded by a NK, while when we do their job and lynch Town nothing happens??

right so NSG flipped town bringing us from 5 to 4 (the point where 2 scum could hold the lynch hostage and stall the game), and then we went to night. my reflexive assumption was that both scum were still alive but town would have some counterplay via the dead townies.

however, here A50 assumes that:
a) NSG was still scum (that flipped as town)
b) Mafia made the night kill instead of the dead townies

these thoughts didn't occur to me at all, therefore I think he may have slightly more info about the setup

[GuiltyLion]

Yea, it's GL for me. He never voted NSG nor has he ever been with her on the same wagon.

also here is a repeated assumption that NSG was in fact scum

I don't really see a reason to think NSG was scum other than the fact that we did go to night phase after her lynch. But again, that could just as easily be because we went to 4p after her lynch.

[GuiltyLion]

so in short, I don't really care that much about how this game plays out because there were multiple derphammers and it's a bastard game with all VT flips, but I'd rather lynch someone else instead of me and A50 is angling to vote me already anyway

VOTE: Almost50

[GuiltyLion]

also like, if we are in some traditional mafia setup where there are 2 scum who are playing to a separate wincon then town, then how do the speed/consensus of the day 2 and day 3 lynches make sense in a traditional narrative where I'm scum with NSG? It would mean that on D2, three townies hopped on and quicklynched a townie with my scum vote being the first one (possible - but pretty rare), and then on D3 town all collectively and pretty much unanimously lynched a scum off the D2 quickwagon, with me as the partner neither bussing nor really doing anything (extremely unlikely, like... how often do you hit scum in 5p LYLO without either A) any bussing or pushing from the partner? or B) obvious associatives forming via a scum-driven game winning counterwagon? especially since the NSG lynch was fairly quick and decisive). If you think the speedy lynches were in some way scum driven, then it's clearly not me w/ NSG who were doing that.

Obviously the game is wonky so it's probably more likely that other weird stuff is going on instead, but if you assume NSG+GL scumteam then D2 and D3 played out really strangely. Town driven wagons don't move that fast most of the time

[GuiltyLion]

my shoot from the hip theory is that A50 is actually speaking the truth that this game goes to night when you lynch mafia and gives them an NK, only he's scum with NSG, went for a bus yesterday, and is now trying to pitch it as NSG+me instead

if that's not the case, then the setup is something truly bastard and I don't really see how the three of us could solve it at this point

[GuiltyLion]

in fact, I wonder if the setup is something like this:

5 townies, 2 mafia
all players flip as VT
game only goes to night when first scum gets lynched, or when scum make up 50% of the town (mostly mountainous)
dead players get to discuss and vote to "eliminate" players when it goes to night (but also have a secret dead mafia who flipped as VT amongst them)

this is the best I got

[GuiltyLion]

And THIS is the final nail in the coffin. No Townie would vote FIRST thus putting someone @L-1 before everyone else have already said their piece.

Let's just assume -for the sake of argument- that GL is in fact a Townie. Now why would he vote before Archwing clearly stated where he stands and what his thoughts are at? What if "Town!LG" was wrong and Archwing was the last scum? That would be throwing the game away for no good reason.

I thus declare GL the last scum and will not switch my vote ever.

Townies vote first in LYLO all the time. Here's what went into that decision, personally:

1) You were clearly already going to vote me and set up this 1v1 anyway - what's the alternative, Archwing says he disagrees with you about me and then you pivot and says that makes him scum? Unlikely. If Archwing is scum then I doubt me 1v1ing him instead would have swayed you to vote him over me given how you started the day and given your reads in general

2) This game is bastard and suffers a severe lack of normal dayplay information - in part because you specifically quicklynched two players on D1 and D3. I'm not particularly invested in this game and there's a decent chance it's some really bizarre mechanics that may mean the game doesn't end on this lynch anyway. Like if you want to talk blame for a town loss postgame, me voting first in LYLO will not even be close to the biggest reason

[GuiltyLion]

Tell me again how you went from "no reason to think NSG is Mafia" to "NSG is indeed Mafia with A50"?
And how did you start with "The game goes into night when Mafia are equal to Town" to "Yeah, A50 is right and NSG was Mafia and the dead killed another Townie"?

You're pretending like this is some kind of inconsistency or hypocrisy on my part, but it's not. I don't think there's a particularly compelling argument for NSG being scum. I don't know (or really have any evidence to even make a conclusion on) how the NK happened or what determined the night phase yesterday.

What I said was: I didn't have the same preconceived ideas that you did, and frankly those ideas hadn't even occurred to me. The fact that

you

entered the game and advocated those assumptions makes me think

you

are the informed party, and if that's the case then I would guess that there's some truth to what you said. So I speculated about that, based on the assumption that you're basing your posts on things that you know. And if I'm totally wrong about that, then we're both town and it doesn't matter at this point anyway.

[GuiltyLion]

so uh, was that a scum hammer? I'm still town

[GuiltyLion]

so what do you think is going on then

[GuiltyLion]

hahaha gg all

glad everyone was as confused as me. Half the time it felt like everyone was in on the set-up but me

[GuiltyLion]

OK.. assuming there IS scum in the game, and assuming there are also PRs.. when the hell do they do their checks? If they are a Day Cop they should have at least 2 good results by now (and that's assuming one of their 3 checks got lynched, because assuming they check exactly the person that gets lynched on the day of their lynch is just too farfetched in my mind). So, 2 clears + the Cop themselves and the game should be over!

So..

@GL: I don't think I slipped (although it would be GOOD for me to assume I Town slipped for once), but I really don't think there are any PRs in this game.

yeah see you're assuming that there isn't other stuff that can happen post lynch (vengeful, supersaint, etc) or during the day. So I'm gonna go ahead and prove that wrong now

DAYVIG: Archwing

so this was really just a super spicy fake dayvig? i like the style, GL.

yeah I was hoping for more reactions but Arch wasn't in the thread, probably could have waited to maybe try it in real time