Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[Sando]

VOTE: Sando

I can't believe you've done this.

VOTE: Mathdino

A math dino unable to math!

[Sando]

suggests his alignment has two components

What are the two components of the scum roles in this setup again?

[Sando]

suggests his alignment has two components

What are the two components of the scum roles in this setup again?

Alignment and partner's name.

Righto, thought you meant "ability" and alignment, and scum are vanilla scum, didn't think of partners.

Agree with Dino though, Mason hunting is bad mmk.

[Sando]

We're 1/7th of the way through the day and we've got a "quirk of language" argument and a reaction to RVS, with Mylo and Kop not having posted yet. Yeah this deadline could be an issue.

does this make sense to anyone else? i don't really see it as meaningful, honestly. nobody got to choose anything at all about their alignment, i sincerely doubt that a linguistic quirk in what gamma said is in any way alignment indicative.

No-one thinks this is indicative, but now:

• Gamma thinks it's indicative that pops said it at all
  BuJaber thinks it's indicative that pops said it at all
  pops is now presenting it as some sort of reaction test, which Gamma apparently failed

I'd say that Gamma's original post is NI

Gamma was in a position of either voting pops and getting accused of OMGUS or waiting until some others had weighed in and getting accused of *whatever the term is for what pops is accusing of*. I'd put all of this in the neutral camp, I think it's what anyone as any alignment would do.

pops made a massive stretch with his initial post, regardless of your views on masoning - pretty poor, but hey it pulled us out of RVS which I'm happy about, overall NAI (or NI for pops cause apparently mason+scum is a good hunting strategy). I think subsequently claiming Gamma has reacted badly to it is a flawed argument and somewhat opportunistic. He's also defended the Mason+Scum hunting strategy in 48 and it's incredibly flawed.

[Sando]

if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?

Flawed =/= scummy. We've gotten the outcome of pressure from pops in his fairly strident defence of mason-hunting. I think it's stupid, but I'm mulling over scumminess at the moment. What is my vote going to achieve? I'm not convinced it's scummy, and I've seen the reaction that I was looking for.

My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.

the more I read this the scummier it seems - "massive" stretch is an exaggeration, LAMIST "I'm happy to be out of RVS", opinions at the end aren't reflected through his vote or any form of direct engagement or pressure towards pops

What about being out of RVS is LAMIST? It's a personal opinion that I (personally, me, Sando) am happy that we're out of RVS. I'm happy about that as any alignment. I also engaged with pops (21 & 24) during that whole discussion to try to draw out more information, which you're conveniently ignoring.

[Sando]

if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?

the more I read this the scummier it seems

If this is how you feel, why not vote Sando?

Second on VD wagon, desperate for Dino approval before voting me...

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Sando]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

You're right in this case, I realised I never actually articulated what I was looking at with pops.

I thought in my mind that we have vanilla-town with vanilla-scum and masons-oneshot. So pops saying that only scum/masons care about more than their alignment is actually not true, only masons would, cause they're the only non-vanilla, thus to my mind pops wasn't even scum+mason hunting, he was purely masonhunting. But I asked, and yeah partners would be something that both scum and masons have, I just hadn't considered that since it's not an "ability". I put that as a decent response.

I'd also note that Gamma effectively defended pops from my line of questioning there with 28, so I'm putting his vote on pops as genuine and not OMGUS or scummy.

[Sando]

My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.

what does this mean? no offense, but this reads as pretty "empty", like you're not actually saying anything at all.

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

[Sando]

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

a) What are you trying to get out of it gamestate wise?
b) It's not, in isolation, but see above, not voting me, and the desperation for someone else to weigh in on me before you vote...a pattern emerges!
c)

Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?

you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made

He's engaged, gives incredibly weak (ie say nothing about my alignment) reasons for why "that's just Sando", and you magically back off.

Looks like you're trying to get someone to make the first move with you, and when they won't, you back down.

[Sando]

You're 100% right, it's very deliberately empty. I'm saying that Dino is "doing something" with the VD wagon etc, and I want to see what the outcome is without me interfering. He's at L-2 so I'm obviously not going to put him at L-1, nor am I going to try and derail the wagon before he gets the reaction he's after. I only said it because GL wanted to call into question whether my read on him had changed.

i've never really understood this "zero sum" view of attention or of focus when it comes to discussing reads, as if bringing something up while someone else has a wagon on them will necessarily be "derailing" it. i mean, do you have a read on math right now or do you not? you're kind of talking like you don't ("and we can draw some conclusions", "i want to see what the outcome is"), but if that's the case i don't see why you wouldn't just come out and say that. (i don't get why you wouldn't just come out and say your read whether you have one or not, but that's a different discussion).

Because I'm not going to say "if MD does X I think he's scum, if MD does Y I think he's town" until after he's done it.

Why would I tell him before he's done the actions what I think of them? If he's scum I'm basically coaching him into how to get me to townread him, if he's town and does the townie thing then he loses town-cred for doing that because someone told him what town would do.

Then again MD thinks my logic as ass-backwards so he probs couldn't GAF what I say.

[Sando]

For reference sake, this was the wagon:

Kmd4390 (22), GuiltyLion (40), Mathdino (41), davesaz (47), northsidegal (54)

[Sando]

Mathdino have you played with verydark before?

[Sando]

Never

Why use him for this wagon then? You had to understand the risk of someone freaking the hell out and responding in this manner, which without the benefit of past games is very hard to read.

I'm content to wait for you to show what you're thinking about the wagoners themselves, but the info you're "gleaning" on verydark seems out of character for you, which to my mind is typically based on experience or strong scum/town tells. This is the first time I've seen you vacillate on a town-tell reaction for example.

[Sando]

And what's your town motivation for whatever "wagon test" you were doing lol. I'm still at L-2. Scum could still hammer me.

You're back to L-3 with GLs changed vote.

We still have 2 people who haven't posted all game, Kop has posted elsewhere during that time.

[Sando]

Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.

Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

I was willing to give benefit of doubt with some reasoning on the wagon itself, but combined with the vacillating on the townreads that does not seem to be your playstyle, yeah I think a lot of this was dodgy as hell.

It's a disgusting meta.

Agreed, but you've never actually said why it's a scum meta, and you're tunnelling him now, and you've stated your vote is 'for realsies'. Your reads don't feel like normal Mathdino reads this game.

[Sando]

I'm curious what games specifically you're using as a baseline for my playstyle, since a lot of your read on me is based on it.

I've read back through a few of your games, and your response like this: "Honestly I think he's just as likely to say something like that as a VT. Scumslips don't happen"; is more like what I've seen from you. Quite decisive, clear on what's a scumtell and what's not. I've yet to see you express this sort of uncertainty over a reaction like this.

I'm really wary of referring to ongoing games, I'm happy to leave this within this game, hence my above quote is from this game, others can read your other games.

You're also not addressing my point: You've pointed out his towntell, you've pointed out how subsequent action to that is really stupid and it pisses you off that others have abused what used to be a towntell. You haven't pointed out what was scummy about it, you've basically said "town and scum both do this". You say "town and scum both do this" a lot from what I've seen, why is this one indicative while others are not?

[Sando]

Early wagons are reaction tests on everyone.

See who jumps on it (and why)

,

see how people react to it (as people are doing)

. I don't think I need to lecture people here on RVS mafia theory. There was explicitly 0 reasoning on the wagon. So what about it was alignment indicative for me?

Because you've done zero of

bold

or

italics

, and now you're just tunnelling and calling for a policy lynch of the wagon target. You've actually written off

bold

as a joke, hence my frustration post.

[Sando]

By zero of italics I mean other than verydarks, you haven't looked at anyone on or off the wagon is my point.

[Sando]

It's butchered bad, that is not my quote as that post makes out

I'm not understanding pops first point, probs due to gore, about NIA and IIoA (I don't know what this second one is).

[Sando]

but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.

Do you mean hypocrisy as in "

you did the same thing as me, it's scummy from you but not from me

", or "

person A and person B did the same thing, I read person A as scummy and person B as town

". There's a town motivation for the first, since they know they're alignment, so yeah they tend to be hypocritical there. But if you think something is scummy, to selectively apply it between two people you ostensibly don't have alignment info about, that doesn't have a town motivation.

Or are you just saying townies are idiots and cause this not to be a useful tell?

[Sando]

Fair warning, my posting levels go down Wed-Sat as I spend the evenings over at my GFs. I tend to follow along on my phone and post once home (I WFH) but I don't like to mobile post so yeah my postings go down those days.

It's Tues ~5pm where i am for reference.

Given we're about 30+ hours in and two people haven't posted nor been prodded, yeah this is gonna be super easy for scum to lurk-win at this rate.

[Sando]

Referendum

: I'm happy with either 11 or 14, but yes I think we need perm. extension.

Prods

: Why are Kop/Mylo getting a pass on lurking and can I read something into that? ie is there reasons the mod hasn't prodded them?

[Sando]

while I'm explicitly being counterwagoned.

Wait you're saying your wagon is to distract from verydark? Why you?

[Sando]

c) why? I know some idiots self-vote as PR but I don't think anyone would self-vote as mason, they already have their alignment proven to one person. Honestly what I'd do as mason under those circumstances is try make use of the recruit to try and show Mathdino I was town.

What in the what?! You want to direct the mason ability onto MD, someone very likely to die as town, to prove themselves as town? They're already proven, if scum want to CC them then cool, that's a huge amount of info town get, especially if they get to D2 without death.

So basically you preemptively think Mathdino will only believe a masonclaim in the event of getting recruited? It also horribly muddies the water if the scum and masons target the same person overnight and removes a very powerful ability from play... Given the power of masons being 3/11 or 2/11 with a guilty tomorrow, trying to influence that or muddy the water is exactly what scum need to do, and it's the same as mason-hunting, anti-town.

I really don't like Gamma's post, especially combined with the "we always lynch this today". If he or anyone else claims mason today, we're flat out not lynching them.

c) I don't even really agree that the self-vote strictly means "not mason" tbh

I think it does tbh, but it doesn't change the fact that we're not lynching mason-claims today, for any reason. And yes this would mean any VT claiming mason is handing the game to scum, but you gotta trust town to at least not be idiots.

I've like GLs posts, 161 from Mathdino puts him in my townread list now.

[Sando]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Meant to do this last post, got distracted

[Sando]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

Put up or shut up dude. I'm literally voting him for his terrible talk about masons, and I figured I'd actually give reasoning. Your constant "I'm dayvigging masontalk" is getting old and tired and you've shown absolutely no intention to actually follow through with it. Either do what you said you're gonna do and actually go after the mason talkers, or shut the hell up about it, it's starting to look like you're just trying for towncred.

[Sando]

I've like GLs posts, 161 from Mathdino puts him in my townread list now.

[Sando]

i have quoted the only real game-relevant part of 139.

@verydark: You claim you did not know that self voting was a permissible action. And I believe you on this. I do not believe you completed four games and didn't learn that unvoting is a permissible action. Why didn't that follow after you realized the gravity of what you'd done?
At first i was willing, perhaps too willing, to accept that explanation. But it seems a bit off. It seems like he demands his behavior be characterized a certain way, yet refuses to even play the part, lest he be seen to be behaving like an actor.

I've got a similar background to verydark, played a bit back around 2010 (I played a lot more), only recently come back (he's played a newbie+this, I've played a newbie+I'm in two opens), so some insight maybe.

Self voting was a thing but considerably rarer, and I believe may have even been banned in newbies back then. Certainly I recoiled in shock when a town-SE self voted in my newbie game coming back. As far as I'm aware, the whole "self votes don't count" has never been a thing, I can point you to at least one of my games with a self-hammer in it from 2010. In my experience it was only used to self-hammer, not to show frustration etc or to put yourself at L-1. My conclusion about this is that verydark is not playing like someone from "back then", and I don't believe he got the idea of it not counting from this site.

Where's the unvote thing coming from? Pops says it in 139, but I can't see where verydark ever says anything about unvoting. He'd also voted 4 different times (across 3 people including himself).

[Sando]

You've got it wrong bub. I meant he'd recruit Mathdino to prove he is town, since he seemed to be disturbed by Mathdino tunneling him. And I did not mention at all anything about directing the mason recruit. This feels quite disingenuous.

No I don't, that's literally what I said...

[Sando]

Gamma, the point here is that it would be insane for the masonry to recruit me to prove themselves as town when I'm by far the most likely NK.

That's fair, but he's stretching

haaaaaaaard

by saying I was directing masons.

Oh my god someone looked at what I said and took it a bit further than what I said in a literal sense, so stretchy!!!!

Turns out scum don't just say "hi I'm scum" and you have to actually read into what they're saying and doing.

[Sando]

Here's a purely ingame example of what I mean about Mathdino wishy-washy.

Why should I follow through with it? It's NAI. Town does anti-town things.

This is very definitive and what I've come to expect from Mathdino, "this is how it is, you're an idiot for thinking otherwise"

People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum.

This is not definitive: "look I used to see it as a townie thing, but I've been burnt by scum faking it so I'm pissed off".

He's using this non-definitive statement as the basis for over-riding what he sees as a very strong towntell. He's passing this off as a policy lynch, but he's gradually walked away from policy and back to scumminess, so I'm wary of believing that at face value either.

[Sando]

^I wrote that before you posted KMD but I assume that answers your question about Mathdino?

[Sando]

Because building a wagon in the first few pages seems to fit his idea of playing politically as does the policy aspect of his vote remaining on verydark.

I was fine/supportive of his wagon building...until it came out it was a meme-fest. Then I was shitty until it became clear it wasn't a total meme-fest. From my POV:

1) MD builds a wagon based on fairly little, but hey it's a quick deadline, and it looks like it's settled in at L-2 pretty comfortably and we'll get some info on who does/doesn't join the wagon and a reaction from verydark
2) Oh wow that's a big WTF moment from verydark, interesting to see what people think of the wagon (I at this point start pointing finger at GL btw)
3) Oh WHAT THE FUCK, seriously, this was a meme-wagon and we're not getting info out of the 5 people that put verydark to L-2 on basically nothing because they just joined it for a joke?! Fuck you, you just wasted a huge amount of time for a joke.
4) 161 - oh, right, reads based on the wagon, cool.

[Sando]

I'm off to GFs tonight, I will be back tomorrow, approx 24 hours from now.

VOTE: Kop

You can all see my view on Gamma and judge for yourself, I'm pretty sold on scum there atm. Kop has actively lurked simply to avoid prod, while posting in other games (for approx first 24 hours of this game, second approx 24 hours didn't post anywhere).

[Sando]

I scan up for context, and it's even worse in light of the fact he was being asked to go in depth about Dino, not himself. Yet there's extra info about his own reactions to the events and even a small parenthetical about what he did at certain moments.

You're kidding right? I went into Dino in 222, said "hey KMD you asked for Dino meta justification, see 222" in 223, then moved onto other talk in 224.

[Sando]

No? How do you take directing power roles from that at alllllll?

Honestly what I'd do as mason under those circumstances is try make use of the recruit to try and show Mathdino I was town.

How on earth is this a stretch to classify this is directing PR?

And the "we always lynch this today" is just as trivial, since it's obviously ignoring possible mason claims.

Bullshit:

we always lynch this today

a) Still feel like it's rather anti town to lynch elsewhere when this guy slipped not-mason

Separate posts, both before my posts though. If this isn't setting it up for a "we're not believing a mason claim, we're simply lynching" I'm not sure what is. The second one is literally in response to someone (I think GL?) saying "no, we don't always lynch this today"...

[Sando]

As far as the verydark wagon, go back and read my post 221. I'm pretty sure the joke/meme was Mathdino wanting North's vote, not the entire wagon.

Yeah I realise that now, at the time I thought it was the entire wagon and was shitty.

[Sando]

But I've seen Mathdino talk about policy voting enough that I don't see it as being against his town meta.

I've seen him push policy before yeah, but it's the wishy washy read that got me pinging. Meh I've read him town in multitude of other posts since then that I'm content with him being townread atm.

[Sando]

why are you voting a lurker over someone you say yourself that you're sold on being scum?

I've made my point on Gamma, got the responses I was looking for, people can read into it now and come to their own conclusion. I was also going away for 24 hours and wanted to make my vote achieving something, pressure on an active lurker seemed like it would achieve more than on Gamma, where it had already generated significant content.

[Sando]

Wouldn't you want me to get lynched if you believed me to be scum though? Why take your focus away from that?

You know if you highlight the bit you're quoting before hitting the right button it will only quote that bit right and not spam with the entire thread?

Because what is the vote going to achieve? You're doing and saying plenty of scummy things right now, your reply to me is similarly scummy, actually worse than previously.

I've pointed out lurking, pointed out Kop actively lurking, to no effect. Adding the vote was an attempt to achieve something there.

I don't care where I am on the wagon, I'll vote first or hammer or join if/when it gets going or avoid it completely, I'm going to use my vote where I think it achieves the most. Neither of you were a viable lynch target within the 24 hours I was away, so I put it where I thought I might achieve something.

[Sando]

If I can answer your question with a question- isn't playstyle and metadiving basically the same thing? It's ultimately a gut reaction, you can game it either way...

No, because you're saying his playstyle itself is town. Meta is reading the difference in playstyle of a player between their scum and town, ie they play differently as town as scum. Yours is based off a single game (bad, don't do this except in extreme cases), Dino's is based off multi-game experience.

The difference in reads from verydark between Kop and Mylo really worry me, especially to call Mylo town, says he's not following flow of play. He shows zero interest in reading Mylo scum despite others expressing scumtells about him. Tells me either a refusal to read Mylo scum, or tunnelled too much to tear himself away from his wagon and his reads are just a way to look busy and pro-town.

Mathdino - You've scumread, townread and now null-read me based on "playstyle", at least from what I can tell. Why do you get to do it and others don't?

[Sando]

Gamma, I would prefer you stop defending yourself, yes.

Gamma's town IMO. He's not getting lynched today.

Why? Every time he defends himself he not only mason hunts, he digs himself further into the scumhole. The fact that he just got out-logic'd by verydark when defending himself says a lot...

[Sando]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

Null

Sando, as I've seen, is the kind of player that is going to naturally produce a lot of content, most of which will be unreadable. I don't feel comfortable reading him either way without a solid background;

if anything, moon logic is a standard towntell in my book.

Townish

Sando: A bucketload of NAI things. Need to metadive.

Back to null

FMPOV, there's a 46% chance there's scum in Kop/Mylo already. Add in a scumbuddy of GL, Sando, or Bujaber, and verydark-scum works just fine.

Happy to lynch, literally your next post.

Where have you done any reading of me that ISN'T playstyle?

[Sando]

It has nothing to do with team mafia, inside jokes, or the internet. I literally mean "I do not want Gamma to be lynched today, as he's easier to read as the game goes on".

Absolute bullshit, you LITERALLY said

Gamma's town IMO. He's not getting lynched today.

So now you're changing to "he's easier to read later", when not that long ago you stated you were highly likely to die...

[Sando]

If you think I'm at all impressed with Gamma's play this game, you've got me very wrong

Bunch of posts I don't think scum would make, basically.

I meant to quote your whole 319

[Sando]

He struts a bit, but I'm sure he's not that narcissistic, Sando. Evidenced by his misplaced post he is cognizant of at least one other person in this thread's ability to develop reads (NSG)

The "I can read him so we should let him live despite the fact that I will die" is very weak in isolation, I agree.

But he says Gamma is town, is asked why he's impressed (ie why is he reading town), and responds with "what, I don't read town". That's the utter bullshit.

[Sando]

Nowhere does Mathdino imply that Gamma's alleged increasing readability only applies to the reads Mathdino develops

I...I...I'm not saying he is? I even said that in isolation it's a very weak argument.

My main thrust is the utter bullshit he's spouting about his own reads.

He says Gamma is town, is asked to justify, claims he doesn't actually think he's town

, just an easy-read lategamer.

See the bold bit...the bit that is a bit bigger, darker, etc.

[Sando]

like you guys are trying to create inconsistencies out of my ISO

which, like, if you're trying really hard and have a sufficiently large number of posts to work with, is relatively easy

I'm literally quoting two posts that contradict each other within 10 posts...

[Sando]

you still haven't gotten back to me about those posts where i allegedly townread/scumread/nullread you

324

Are you reading?

[Sando]

Welp I'm going to go have a smoke, check back in, then go to bed.

If ya'll wanna do this tonight, fine. But I think the PRO TOWN thing to do would be hear from the other half dozen players that don't even know this is happening right now.

See you in 5.

We know...we want you to claim or gtfo. You've got one who's already said they have intent to hammer and are waiting on claim, so that's already above half, and feel free to add me to that list. So no, we're not waiting on people who don't know what's happening.

[Sando]

hey sando

how come you're willing to lynch verydark right away

Wat?

yet i seem to be your strongest scumread (unless i'm misinterpreting some things)

and i'm one of the biggest proponents of verydark's wagon/he's hardscumreading me

Double wat?

Ok the second one you can have a pass on. Consider my vote on Gamma until verydark claim/lynch is sorted, I didn't want to clutter the whole claim part up (ok that's a fairly laughable goal in hindsight). I have some thoughts on you out of this, but I'm not going to say which way while I mull it over/talk to mods, given what else has happened in the last 24 hours. I hope that's sufficiently vague. Neither you nor Gamma are a viable lynch within the next 24 hours (I don't think anyone other than verydark could get lynched in that time), so I don't think it's unreasonable.

But where are you getting the thought on me wanting to kill verydark right away? Because of my 'intent to lynch' parrot on pops? I'm trying to emphasise that verydark is verywrong (lolpun) about the idea that half the players don't even know what's going on.

[Sando]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Sando]

We know...we want you to claim or gtfo. You've got one who's already said they have intent to hammer and are waiting on claim, so that's already above half, and feel free to add me to that list. So no, we're not waiting on people who don't know what's happening.

This is worded as if you're also on the list of people who have intent to hammer.

Yep, I agree with that assessment. With that wording I'm trying to impress on verydark that well over half (he refers to the half elsewhere) are completely fine with what's going on, and yes I think he should claim.

[Sando]

I need to talk to mod about stuff, I'm gonna hold off on posts until tomorrow (RL ~18 hours from now) unless I hear back.

UNVOTE:

^I'll do this in the meantime, consider my vote on Gamma in spirit, apparently that's a thing now.

[Sando]

Hey guys,

I'm going to:

@mod - can I please replace out

I'm in two ongoing games and as alluded to early in the game, I'm really struggling with the (non)crossover. Please don't read into this, I absolutely do not have info that I should not have, nor do I believe I've given anyone info that they should not have. I won't say any more for fear of tainting things, but I'm really cognisant of not wanting to ruin any games for people.

[Sando]

Yeah, I'm probably over-reacting, but after you had to replace out it's put it front and centre and I can't break it out of my head and I really don't want to risk two games. This is the last I'll post on it here for fear of disruption, sorry guys! See you in the post-game.

[Sando]

Sorry for replacing out, MD was doing something super contradictory between our two games and I had a crisis of confidence about not referring to other games. Nothing wrong with what MD did and he'd actually already replaced out of that game, I just had no idea how to handle it appropriately. I also thought the difference made him scum here...he was scum in the other game Interestingly enough, S_S took over my slot here and his slot there

GG guys, was good to watch. That day 1 with verydark was...interesting, how he got out of that without claiming I'll never know.

[Sando]

what was i doing differently sando?

i thought you basically confed yourself as town with your replace-out. which would've been great if you weren't a mason

I forget the exact details, but from memory in one game you were townreading me for an action and in this game you were null-scum reading me for pretty much the same action. I was very careful not to mention anything about it though, hence it's hard to remember what it was. It was something in our little detente that pinged me, and the other game was 712.

Yeah I'm never not conf!town'd I'm finding, using PRs is not really my forte, but I'm good a theorising with them, so they're typically wasted on me

[Sando]

This was what I wrote to mod @Mathdino:

He's saying "I've never done X to you", when he's done X to me, just in an ongoing game.

I'm super worried given he actually just replaced out of that game due to a similar issue to this, so I'm trying to be super careful. He's replaced out, but obviously the replacement shares the alignment, so any reference is potentially giving unfair information.

I can't remember exactly what X was, but yeah I was being super careful. Not helped by Dave being in this game and mod of the other