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Post Post #52 (isolation #0) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 8:24 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Could there be a category for multiball setups?
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Post Post #54 (isolation #1) » Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:07 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Not counting games with a scum faction and a self aligned faction and games with any self eliminating factions (mimes), and counting games with multiple self aligned killing factions and games with a random element to whether there are multiple factions (Great Idea).



jesus
that already took too long
how do you have time for this
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Post Post #56 (isolation #2) » Mon Nov 10, 2014 9:14 am

Post by Mathdino »

Apparently the links for anything with ++ don't work. Weird.
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Post Post #431 (isolation #3) » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:25 pm

Post by Mathdino »

:lol:

Someone went into the Open Database and added solely my Open 711 without updating the past 30 or so games :P

Finished updating that.

Does anything need doing?

My concern from the open standpoint is that categories like "Mini Setups" and "Mini Open Setups" aren't exactly distinct from one another. Took me a while to figure out that "Mini Open Setups" specifically means "setups approved by the open listmod". The category pages also don't link to each other.

Edit: Yeah a quick glance shows that the categories are out of date, and a lot of the setup pages haven't been standardised. "Making Friends And Enemies" is still listed as Untested, while a lot of actually Untested setups aren't tagged.
Might get to that.
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Post Post #433 (isolation #4) » Sun Mar 25, 2018 11:24 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I've heard a bunch of complaints about the Abbreviations page not including current site lingo. At this point, the MU wiki is doing better than us in that regard. A lot of these pages are straight up newbie-unfriendly, and I believe this is contributing to low newbie retention rate. The wiki was up to date when I joined, and the idea that this site was the hub of mafia theory was a huge draw.

I added SR, TR, NAI, and AI. I removed slang that appears in the linked Internet Slang webpage.

More controversially, I'm removing:
HoS
: I see FoS occasionally, but HoS has phased out almost completely I think.
IME
: In My Experience, no one seems to abbreviate this simple phrase.
IoA
: IIoA is still going strong, but anyone accusing someone of Information Over Analysis just says IIoA.
MB
: People just say multiball, which is a confusing enough word.
MFoS
: Middle Finger of Suspicion? No.
POV
: A common English abbreviation. I replaced with FMPOV, which I see a lot.
RTFT
: Read The Fucking Thread? Noooope.

Questionable abbreviations that I'm leaving up just in case:
BWCS
: Best Worst Case Scenario, basically a buzzword for "lynch VT claims". I did a search and basically only one user uses this.
IGMEOY
: I've Got My Eye On You, something that is sort of Internet slang, but still almost no one uses.
ITT
: This is general forum/Reddit lingo.
Sus
: I'm guessing this is mostly present for non-native English speakers.

BaM
: Bad At Mafia? This was a ruleset once? What?
C9, F11
: Clearly out of date.

And 90% of the users in the Username Abbreviations section are years removed from the site. I can understand including, for example, RC (especially because of easy confusion), but it looks like PookieTheMagicalBear is over a decade gone?

Anyway yeah the wiki really needs to be more newbie friendly. I'm considering taking a machete to a few of the Gambits and Tells pages given how out of date they are. I've seen Slayer's Gambit namedropped too many times by newbies who've clearly done the work of reading the wiki, but haven't been told how incredibly out of date it is.

Maybe an Outdated category?
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Post Post #435 (isolation #5) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:49 pm

Post by Mathdino »

The problem is that the organisation of the wiki as it currently is, doesn't really lend itself to creating an entire "legacy" section.

a rough organisation of the wiki:
  • Setups
    : This is mostly up to date thanks to wgeurts, but there are some things 2 or 3 years out of date, and setups need recategorising.
  • Roles
    : Roughly up to date, just needs to incorporate common roles in the modern newbies/normals (Neapolitan).
  • Modding
    : This won't really ever go out of date, although it could use some wiki'd Alisae and Varsoon articles with their permission.
  • Theory
    : The elephant in the room. If everything were in the same place, we could easily move all of it to a legacy section.
    But as it is, it's split up into:
    • The Theory category itself: Clearly more centred around setup, calculations, mechanics, etc than around play. The articles need removal but a bunch of concepts are timeless.
    • Articles: Dear god does this need to be looked at. This is split into Play Articles and Modding Articles but they're ALL dumped into the main section. Fortunately, many of these are timeless, but a select few just don't need to be here anymore.
    • Common Tells: Questionable section. The most recent article was written 3 years ago. Not terrible (IIoA will always be a scumtell) but still needs work to stay on top of site meta.
    • Gambits: Dear god. A bunch of these only apply to specific setup situations or claiming strategies. I've barely seen any of these gambits actually in action.
    • Logical Fallacies: Good section, fallacies are timeless.
I'm going to start by creating an "Outdated" section and using my best judgment as to what to move there. Won't delete anything just in case.

Then I'm gonna start lifting recent MD threads into appropriate places just to show off that the wiki does in fact have current articles.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #6) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:01 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I did a search for the abbreviations I was removing just in case. If you can google or Wiktionary an abbreviation, it probably doesn't belong on the Mafia Wiki.

The most basic argument I have is that abbreviations are to facilitate communication, and making the page unnecessarily long and filled with abbreviations that people don't actually use, hampers that.
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Post Post #440 (isolation #7) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 1:34 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Found the issue.

I altered the Articles Template to not automatically include articles under Category:Articles, and instead to only place articles in their respective subcategories. This could easily be changed back if the consensus disagrees, but I think this style of organisation is more in line with Wikipedia guidelines and reduces general wiki clutter.
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Post Post #444 (isolation #8) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:11 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 441, mastina wrote:
In post 433, Mathdino wrote:More controversially, I'm removing:
HoS
: I see FoS occasionally, but HoS has phased out almost completely I think.
IME
: In My Experience, no one seems to abbreviate this simple phrase.
MFoS
: Middle Finger of Suspicion? No.
RTFT
: Read The Fucking Thread? Noooope.
Um.
What.

Those are all.

Common mafiascum things.
HoS: I did a search for "Hand of Suspicion" and found one use over a year ago. I can't search 3 letters but yeah, I'd understand this.

IME: This is internet slang.

MFoS: Has had 3 uses in the past 3 years. This has phased out.

RTFT: Got 22 hits in the past year, primarily in newbie games from people who obviously read the wiki. I could accept this being useful to have, but there's a certain point where when only a handful of players use an acronym, it has to get explained in-thread all the time (or straight up gets ignored).
In post 441, mastina wrote:
In post 433, Mathdino wrote:Maybe an Outdated category?
I wouldn't recommend that, per se, but I would recommend Publish Dates, Last Revised dates (just adding Publish Dates/categories not counting as a revision; a revision in this case is CONTENT changed), and greater use of an existing category I'll track down in a sec, more or less one which is "site history". (Yes there is a category for that, believe it or not. I don't remember it's name, but it basically is "this is for things which are significant for their past value to the site but which are not as pertinent now", more or less.)
I read through the list of categories and couldn't find anything like that.

I agree on publish dates, and I'm already gonna do that. Still, it doesn't do much to point to the most recently created articles. When I was a newbie, I recognised that half the wiki was 6 years old and half was pretty good recent content, and yeah, the publishing dates helped. But where I got most of my mafia content was the MD, which, at the time, had tons of articles going around.

Now, not so much.

So the question I ask is, I'm a newbie, and I want to learn more about how to play mafia effectively given current site meta. Where do I go?

Because it's really easy to tell the newbies who are using wikitells by how outdated their scumhunting tactics are.
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Post Post #453 (isolation #9) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:37 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Category:Articles has finally been blanked, with all articles filed under "Play", "Views", "Modding", and "Wiki" (with wgeurts's scummer page guide).

Now creating subcategories for Townplay and Scumplay articles. Should help ICs in newbie games not have to type their own guides out over and over.
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Post Post #455 (isolation #10) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:11 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Looks like I just ran into you helping out with the categorisation Lycan, thanks :P

I found the template {{Outofdate}}, and I've been using it on articles around a decade or so old that don't really seem to apply anymore. A few do, to be sure (I don't think general charisma articles will ever go out of date), but I'm using my best judgment and anyone can reverse or update articles if they disagree.

And yeah, I agree with Kitty on this. Removing PbPA is like removing OMGUS. Not liking it isn't justification for removing it altogether. I still see that used.
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Post Post #457 (isolation #11) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:13 pm

Post by Mathdino »

@Lycanfire: The Article template wgeurts created automatically adds the page to the correct article subcategory just by putting a value in the Type section.

I'd like to modify it to allow multiple types in the template a la the Open Setups template, but for now, you shouldn't have to waste your time manually adding those categories.
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Post Post #459 (isolation #12) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 9:31 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Simpler than I expected. The articles template now allows the input of multiple types just by using Type2, Type3, Type4, etc. Should no longer need manual entry of categories at the end.
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Post Post #460 (isolation #13) » Mon Mar 26, 2018 11:43 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In a rare moment, a new page on mafia theory has actually been uploaded: Self-voting

Hopefully it might be of some use to ICs.

Redirected Fong's Gambit to a subsection, and described the controversy surrounding it in accordance with current meta. Also added it to Gambits and Tells (noting that its use as a scumtell is in question).

Are there currently any plays or tells that really need wiki pages? This was the first glaring hole I came across (considering Fong's Gambit is around 14 years old).
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Post Post #461 (isolation #14) » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:09 am

Post by Mathdino »

Image

This, but with "Beginner's Guides to Mafia".

There are at least 6 or 7 articles ostensibly written as a guide to newbies, but the combined amount of content is insane, and the wiki doesn't appear to particularly endorse any of them. Seeing as the only way to really find them is to be searching through the wiki yourself, I don't think many newbies read these guides or get much out of them until they're skilled enough that they no longer need the guides.

Besides, ICs basically repost their own guides in every newbie game anyway.

How do we resolve the 15 competing standards?
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Post Post #466 (isolation #15) » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:01 am

Post by Mathdino »

hey wgeurts i finally got around to responding to your 2.5 year old request of adding more theory pages

i think we're gonna need a theory portal at some point if you're interested :D

also im not sure if anyone is responding to my {{deleteme}} requests so
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Post Post #468 (isolation #16) » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:07 am

Post by Mathdino »

yeah you're probably right

new project: delete all wiki guides :P
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Post Post #470 (isolation #17) » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:09 pm

Post by Mathdino »

ah, sounds good, i wasn't sure how the deletion process quite worked, thanks for the clarification

i should start ticking the "minor edit" box, sorry about filling up the recent changes list
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Post Post #473 (isolation #18) » Tue Mar 27, 2018 6:59 pm

Post by Mathdino »

doesn't make it any less deserving of good content

on one hand there's the newbies that flake in the middle of the first game, sure

but then there's a lot of newbies that flake out or can't get to the point of semi-competence after their first 2 or 3 games

i think that "i just played my first or second newbie game" crowd needs a lot more support than it's getting

a lot of newbie games are total shitshows and don't actually teach much
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Post Post #480 (isolation #19) » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:44 pm

Post by Mathdino »

I can't see how that wouldn't result in the vast majority of newbie games being toxic tugs-of-war between two egos
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Post Post #486 (isolation #20) » Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:50 pm

Post by Mathdino »

In post 484, N wrote:I thought this thread was about the wiki
don't worry i'll save it watch me soar
In post 483, LicketyQuickety wrote:Most of the IC's do a shit job of teaching newbies the ropes.

I don't IC because I don't want to fuck up on theory. The thing is, it's quite ambiguous what even is "standard theory" anymore. smh.
I think the lack of any clear "standard theory" is tied closely with the aging of the wiki.

I don't mean to imply there can be or ever was a clear consensus on mafia theory given how subjective the game is, but there was at least SOME consensus over what was considered good advice and what wasn't. I think the MD isn't used nearly as much as it used to be for... actual mafia discussion. You don't get people waltzing into the forum anymore, asking how to scumhunt, and getting 5 different answers. After all, the answers are all on the wiki... except they're 6 years old.

Not totally sure the point I'm making here other than "we should use MD more tbh".

Anyway, Firebringer's, Alisae's, and Titus's articles have been uploaded. I'm gonna be categorising articles by author and I might do it by timeframe if I can copy some categorisation methods from Wikipedia.

The Category:Gambits section has been overhauled, with descriptions of when certain gambits can be used and the risk/reward of them. I'm gonna start adding fakeclaiming gambits as well, in an objective a light as possible. Teach the controversy, etc etc.
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Post Post #491 (isolation #21) » Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:01 pm

Post by Mathdino »

The blacklist is a bit strict. I uploaded Modding uPicks by Alisae but a lot of the original links were blacklisted (Imgur, Steam, etc).

I also redirected Cute Fuzzy Kitten Defense to the now overhauled Refuge in Audacity (basically just scum trying to play too scummy to be scum), and the TVTropes article I named it after is also blacklisted.

And yeah, my trying to write on Fong's Gambit was definitely a "teach the controversy" moment. It's one of those things that's riddled with WIFOM (same with all WIFOM gambits). I'm trying to write these as objectively as I can; later on I think I'll write an article about actually gambiting as town in practice. I've seen the majority of these gambits work at some point, but I much more often than not see them fail.
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Post Post #495 (isolation #22) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:21 pm

Post by Mathdino »

a quick fix if you find out that the wiki doesn't have the right page for something

but has a similar page

is to just make a redirect, mastina

redirect would look like this

create the VCA page and make the only text:

#REDIRECT [[Voting patterns]]

that's it
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Post Post #498 (isolation #23) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:34 pm

Post by Mathdino »

that's a pretty good intro/description, definitely

i wasn't sure how to write an effective intro

but i had the idea over dinner to just put all the VCA related glossary terms in that page

onwagon, offwagon, counterwagon, retaliatory wagon, vanity wagon, bussing/distancing (with links to their own pages), neverbussing, etc

if you upload your description i'll get to work on adding the terms
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Post Post #501 (isolation #24) » Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:39 pm

Post by Mathdino »

Aaaand done. I dare people to tell me the new VCA page isn't pretty as fuck :P

If anyone wants to do a quick thing to help, all the words in the terminology sections could use redirects to the VCA page itself, along with upper case and lower case versions of the page title and the section headers.

I'm also not sure what else to put in the Vote Progressions section, but I think continuing to talk about it on the "official" VCA page leads down the road of subjectivity. I tried to be as objective and timeless as possible (for example, I don't think it'll ever be in question that most counterwagons to scum lynches are scum-motivated).

Edit: For the record, I titled the page "VCA" in line with Wikipedia's Manual of Style and a bit of subjectivity -- I don't often see VCA spelled out, and a lot of VCA nowadays doesn't even refer to looking at the moderator's actual vote counts. I think the abbreviation is more meaningful than the full phrase.
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Post Post #510 (isolation #25) » Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:40 am

Post by Mathdino »

It's already listed by playercount. wgeurts overrode the alphabetical sort by pulling playercount and sorting by that. The problem is since the wiki updated, it converts the playercount to the corresponding ASCII symbol. SS3 is listed under C, We Need A Fifth under D, Vengeful under E.

wgeurts is asking for a way to convert it back.
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