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mastina
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Post Post #475  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:04 am

In post 474, RadiantCowbells wrote:think that's better served by having SEs and ICs actually take an interest in the newbies in the games that they were in and do a better job teaching
I do echo this for what it's worth. I'd offer my assistance were I able to but I know that with how busy I am now that'd be unwise. (And even if I weren't working two jobs, it's questionable on whether I can actually DO the "better job" in the first place.)
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Post Post #476  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:05 am

My experience of ICing is that when you try to actually teach players, you get called scummy for it. After all, isn't that just a mix of coaching and IIoA?

It's probably helpful to have somewhere (like the wiki) that newbies can look information up without giving away their alignment, anyway.
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Post Post #477  (ISO)  » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:47 am

In post 465, wgeurts wrote:
In post 442, T-Bone wrote:Well, to give ya'll a sneak preview...we've been discussing the mafiawiki backstage for a while, and we will soon ask for volunteers to overhaul specific parts of the wiki.

You didn't hear it from me though.

I could be talked out of hiatus depending on the circumstances


I will be making a fresh topic either tonight or tomorrow to address this.
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Post Post #478  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:34 pm

I kinda think newbies should try to get to the point where they have two ICs and 1-2 SEs but obviously that requires a much larger volume of people who are willing and able to ic.
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Post Post #479  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:44 pm

That's a bandaid covering up the fact that most ics aren't pulling their weight.
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Post Post #480  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:44 pm

I can't see how that wouldn't result in the vast majority of newbie games being toxic tugs-of-war between two egos

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Post Post #481  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:46 pm

Well crappy ICing is a whole other problem in its own right imo... and yeah it’s a real problem. Recruiting, training, and monitoring ICs is simply not a priority of late. Also Thor and nacho aren’t churning out like 20 newbie games per year combined so that makes it harder too.
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Post Post #482  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:46 pm

In post 480, Mathdino wrote:I can't see how that wouldn't result in the vast majority of newbie games being toxic tugs-of-war between two egos

Good ICs don’t drown the thread in their own egos, so that again gets back to ic quality.
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Post Post #483  (ISO)  » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:53 pm

Most of the IC's do a shit job of teaching newbies the ropes.

I don't IC because I don't want to fuck up on theory. The thing is, it's quite ambiguous what even is "standard theory" anymore. smh.
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Post Post #484  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:09 am

I thought this thread was about the wiki
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Post Post #485  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:30 am

Emphasis on “was” :P
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Post Post #486  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:50 am

In post 484, N wrote:I thought this thread was about the wiki

don't worry i'll save it watch me soar

In post 483, LicketyQuickety wrote:Most of the IC's do a shit job of teaching newbies the ropes.

I don't IC because I don't want to fuck up on theory. The thing is, it's quite ambiguous what even is "standard theory" anymore. smh.

I think the lack of any clear "standard theory" is tied closely with the aging of the wiki.

I don't mean to imply there can be or ever was a clear consensus on mafia theory given how subjective the game is, but there was at least SOME consensus over what was considered good advice and what wasn't. I think the MD isn't used nearly as much as it used to be for... actual mafia discussion. You don't get people waltzing into the forum anymore, asking how to scumhunt, and getting 5 different answers. After all, the answers are all on the wiki... except they're 6 years old.

Not totally sure the point I'm making here other than "we should use MD more tbh".

Anyway, Firebringer's, Alisae's, and Titus's articles have been uploaded. I'm gonna be categorising articles by author and I might do it by timeframe if I can copy some categorisation methods from Wikipedia.

The Category:Gambits section has been overhauled, with descriptions of when certain gambits can be used and the risk/reward of them. I'm gonna start adding fakeclaiming gambits as well, in an objective a light as possible. Teach the controversy, etc etc.

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Post Post #487  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:15 pm

In post 477, T-Bone wrote:
In post 465, wgeurts wrote:
In post 442, T-Bone wrote:Well, to give ya'll a sneak preview...we've been discussing the mafiawiki backstage for a while, and we will soon ask for volunteers to overhaul specific parts of the wiki.

You didn't hear it from me though.

I could be talked out of hiatus depending on the circumstances


I will be making a fresh topic either tonight or tomorrow to address this.

If my memory is correct I had almost finished sorting the setups thing in a nice manner, I could aid any other project.
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Post Post #488  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:22 pm

Quick look shows that setups is nearly completed, just need to fix the browse bar template, and finalise a few of the categories. Roles was also close to being finished. I can complete those. The templates used for those sections are pretty versatile so they can be adapted to the other sections.

I think I was trying to get the wiki more organized into "domains" of sorts to make it significantly easier to organise everything. Any effort to do this and add new content/update content would be cool
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Post Post #489  (ISO)  » Fri Mar 30, 2018 9:46 pm

Let me know if you all need any help on the tech / administrative side. I keep up with this thread.

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Post Post #490  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:17 am

On the topic Mathdino brought up about gambits/whether they're still relevant or useful, I would argue they are timeless. Once they're done once, it's a gambit that happened. What a gambit isn't is something that works all the time, or most of the time.

Redirecting Fong's Gambit was great though. Fuck self voters.

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Post Post #491  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:01 am

The blacklist is a bit strict. I uploaded Modding uPicks by Alisae but a lot of the original links were blacklisted (Imgur, Steam, etc).

I also redirected Cute Fuzzy Kitten Defense to the now overhauled Refuge in Audacity (basically just scum trying to play too scummy to be scum), and the TVTropes article I named it after is also blacklisted.

And yeah, my trying to write on Fong's Gambit was definitely a "teach the controversy" moment. It's one of those things that's riddled with WIFOM (same with all WIFOM gambits). I'm trying to write these as objectively as I can; later on I think I'll write an article about actually gambiting as town in practice. I've seen the majority of these gambits work at some point, but I much more often than not see them fail.

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Post Post #492  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 5:53 pm

In post 491, Mathdino wrote:The blacklist is a bit strict. I uploaded Modding uPicks by Alisae but a lot of the original links were blacklisted (Imgur, Steam, etc).

I also redirected Cute Fuzzy Kitten Defense to the now overhauled Refuge in Audacity (basically just scum trying to play too scummy to be scum), and the TVTropes article I named it after is also blacklisted.

And yeah, my trying to write on Fong's Gambit was definitely a "teach the controversy" moment. It's one of those things that's riddled with WIFOM (same with all WIFOM gambits). I'm trying to write these as objectively as I can; later on I think I'll write an article about actually gambiting as town in practice. I've seen the majority of these gambits work at some point, but I much more often than not see them fail.

There was a cheeky way to get around that but I forgot how, give me a bit if kison doesn't change anything :p
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Post Post #493  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:28 pm

The blacklist was our primary method of spam containment before we (1) linked forum & wiki accounts & (2) recently added spam-prevention extensions. We can probably ease up on some of the rules we have in there.

Alright, after looking at it, it looks like I blacklisted all external URLs back in 2011 & we only allow from a whitelist.

For now, I whitelisted imgur & steam, but we may be okay to turn off the blacklist at this point. You wiki experts probably know better than me.

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Post Post #494  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:16 pm

By the way, did you know we have a page for VCA?

The problem is, you can't find it by searching for VCA because it's not called Votecount Analysis or Vote Count Analysis or anything of the sort.

Of all things, it is called...Voting patterns. Now, I imagine that this is what VCA used to be called. I've never known VCA by any name other than VCA, but I was not on the site back when this page was made, it's that archaic and old. I would not recommend deleting the page (because there is stuff linking to it), but I would recommend an overhaul of some sort, such that a page on VCA has the current terminology in place, referencing both what it is now and what it was back then, more or less.
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Post Post #495  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:21 pm

a quick fix if you find out that the wiki doesn't have the right page for something

but has a similar page

is to just make a redirect, mastina

redirect would look like this

create the VCA page and make the only text:

#REDIRECT [[Voting patterns]]

that's it

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Post Post #496  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:25 pm

What I more or less have in mind:
Vote Count Analysis
(Redirects in play: Votecount Analysis; Voting patterns; Voting Patterns, any other redirects which currently exist, maybe also VCA unless you want VCA to redirect to common abbreviations.)
Vote Count Analysis, commonly abbreviated VCA, originally referred to as Voting Patterns, is analyzing the way players [[Vote]] in an effort to help determine who is [[Scum]].

For example, if someone is on a lot of scum lynches, it could point to them being [[Town|town]] (or vice-versa). A common "separation tactic" is for [[Mafia]] players to vote each other early in [[Random Voting]] to appear that they don't know each other.

Different actions taken by a voter may look Scummy or pro-town, and further their suspicion/defense. For example, if someone is exibiting Wishy-Washy Voting, they may be scum.

Watching voting patterns is one of the things you can do in an online Mafia game that you would be unable to do in a MeatWorld game.


...And then, adding things as we see fit, and editing them, to give a more in-depth response. (This was just my starting point; I would expect the final product to be different.) What I'm proposing, more or less, would be to have a way of referring to what it is now, but to not lose the descriptor of what it was originally, to keep the history behind what it is and yet make it more pertinent to its modern usage.


(By the way, we really need an article on fencesitting which also uses other common terminologies, e.g. wishy-washy, that refer to the same or a similar enough concept.)
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Post Post #497  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:29 pm

In post 495, Mathdino wrote:a quick fix if you find out that the wiki doesn't have the right page for something
but has a similar page
is to just make a redirect, mastina
redirect would look like this
create the VCA page and make the only text: #REDIRECT [[Voting patterns]]
that's it
I know how to make redirects, Mathdino. I do that all the time. I just think that's probably not the best solution. The page I'm pretty sure predates my having joined mafiascum. It's oooooooooooooooold. And while it is in fact, to some extent, timeless...the page would be far more useful if it had a more modern explanation, so to speak.

I'm not sure if I can explain that better. But basically, as it is right now, the page shows its age. It's useful, sure. And having it be linked to VCA would be more useful, yeah. But it's still...notably dated. You look at the page and you can tell when it was made because you can tell it is old from the infancy of the wiki.

While I maintain we shouldn't lose the history behind that page, that we should have it recorded what it was back then more or less...we need a rehaul there.
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Post Post #498  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 7:34 pm

that's a pretty good intro/description, definitely

i wasn't sure how to write an effective intro

but i had the idea over dinner to just put all the VCA related glossary terms in that page

onwagon, offwagon, counterwagon, retaliatory wagon, vanity wagon, bussing/distancing (with links to their own pages), neverbussing, etc

if you upload your description i'll get to work on adding the terms

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Post Post #499  (ISO)  » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:08 pm

In post 498, Mathdino wrote:but i had the idea over dinner to just put all the VCA related glossary terms in that page
onwagon, offwagon, counterwagon, retaliatory wagon, vanity wagon, bussing/distancing (with links to their own pages), neverbussing, etc
if you upload your description i'll get to work on adding the terms
You weren't sure how to write a good intro/description, I wasn't sure how to write a good body for the "meat" of the article more or less, I've done my part and outlined a few things I think should be done, so now it's your turn. :P
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