Large Normal 211: Scientific Mafia

[Theta Alpine]

hey all

VOTE: beefster

you are at least supposed to have a reason in rvs
at least i think so

[Theta Alpine]

-snip-
This claim in general is leaving me baffled, I can only think of two possible reasons for it, one of which requires him to be a fool and the other is too convoluted. It doesn't make sense him to make such a... contradictory claim, especially given that there was no attention on him. So it gives me a pretty bad vibe, and has me frowning at him outing his buddy like that.

i can think of a third
he just made a joke claim

it has been a thing in my previous few games
enough of a thing that i deem it nai

Mafia only has daychat if they have encryptor, right?

yep
the rules state that mafia does not have daychat
therefore the only [may not be only] way mafia has daychat in this game is if they have an encryptor in their factional chat

[may not be the only way because if i remember correctly you can have a custom role in a normal and giving daychat to mafia would be allowed for such a role]

p-edit

-snip-
This sounds like bull.

Talk about your mafia experince a bit. How many games do you have under your belt?

6 or 7 on this account
this is in fact still a secret alt [for a given definition of secret] so i will not be telling you how many in total

anyways the whole point of rvs is so that people find the most random eccentric or silly reason to vote someone and then other people react to it

also it might be a bit early to say if someone is town or not

[Theta Alpine]

Mafia can have day chat without an encryptor.

well yes

i mentioned in my post that a custom role could give them day chat
however daychat would have to come from a role in this game

Well I don’t know if can’t buy that you’ve never seen someone naked vote in RVS. What’s wrong with the reactions to those again?

And I disagree with that being the purpose of RVS and for some reason I don’t believe you think that it is. The purpose of RVS is to get the game moving by catching the hidden motives couched in the jokes and the shit posting. Focusing on someone not providing a reason for a vote in RVS doesn’t feel natural.

i have seen naked votes before
those are called votes with hidden reasons
the point i was making is that you do still have a reason to vote
you cannot claim to have no reason when you vote someone

i am perfectly fine with no stated reason
i am not fine with stating no reason at all

p-edit
flavor leaf
i think i have been in a game with you before
i may have to go look and see now

[Theta Alpine]

oh wait i remember now
i was in the game where you revealed who you were an alt of

[Theta Alpine]

and since now i know who it was that made the claim

i take back what i said about joke claim

it was definitely a gambit
not that it changes the fact that it is still nai

p-edit
i did play in large normal 206
the one where you outed flavor leaf as being your alt

[Theta Alpine]

if it helps
flavor leaf is boonskiies
therefore shenanigans are nai
he does this as town and scum

although seriously
claiming ascetic miller is more likely to make me question whether that would even be allowed in a normal and why someone would ever put a role like that into a game [besides stated reason troll mod which i doubt would apply in this case]

p-edit
i have yet to form an opinion
my own opinion would normally have led me to join you in not voting

[Theta Alpine]

i do not know who james is so i will assume i have not played with him
i do not remember if i have played with you

now to be serious
is the neighborhood actually a thing

because i could see gamma waiting out a day making very real sense if he is in a neighborhood

[Theta Alpine]

Why do you think scum would drop a neighbor claim after a dayvig? That's just nonsense.

The neighbor claim is irrelevant. Some scum, when they get hammered or dayvigged, just gg and fess up to being scum. That's what I was looking for.

Seriously. You've been around enough to know this. Quit being obtuse.

this is a thing

and i will give pine a slight town read
though i probably would have waited longer before outing it

[Theta Alpine]

later
once i have time to look at it

[Theta Alpine]

okay now that i look at it

pine called inferno town
and then two posts [iso wise] later he does the fake day kill
which does undermine the effect of the gambit

[Theta Alpine]

if you two could have an argument and actually make statements supporting your conclusions that would be nice and helpful and alignment indicative

[Theta Alpine]

i was actually speaking to both of you
not every part of that statement applied to both people that statement targeted

[Theta Alpine]

it can be treated as one

[Theta Alpine]

that is also alignment indicative
though i am not sure how specifically
depends on if multiball is actually true this game or not

[Theta Alpine]

oh
actually a really good question is if anyone else is in a neighborhood
that would at the very least influence my thoughts on this game being multiball or not

[Theta Alpine]

I think we shouldn't be assuming we have scum in the hood. I mean for pete's sake in Large 203 there was a hood with 4 town only, so like, it's not unprecedented. Sort by play, not whether someone is in a hood.

that is something i could imagine assemble doing actually

[Theta Alpine]

protip:

iso Assemble in the normal signups. You'll see he confirmed this to be singleball. you're welcome.

thank you
i signed up a bit after that and did not see it

[Theta Alpine]

oh so it is just you changing your meta
i though you were just trying a gambit with the rest of your neighborhood
but yeah a shift in meta could also explain it
either way i would have likely given it nai
it would be the reactions to what you are doing that i would look at more

[Theta Alpine]

I'm getting some town feeling from Egg right now. His reads seem pretty genuine, and original too: They're completely his own, which I like.
Startingto lean town on Pine too a little bit. @Pine, talk to me about Egg. I know you don't like the questions aimed at you, but what about the rest of his reads?

Nah, Egg's fine. He's hunting, he's just sucking at it.

I'm proceeding on a multiball assumption, so scumhunting is mostly null. In other words, Egg is doing genuine work that has merit, he's just tunneling me wrong.

so i guess you missed the post where assemble said this game does not have multiple scumteams

[Theta Alpine]

probably process of elimination

[Theta Alpine]

Just checking in.

Off to work but will catch-up in a few hours.

that went well

i have something to say but i'm waiting to say it.

seriously just say it
it better be either a role a vote or a reason you have not moved your vote

Ascetic miller neighbor claim is probably a joke.

VOTE: Nictis

It's a chainsaw defense, but I'll roll with this for now.

another person i want to hear from
let me know why you think nictis deserves a vote when you get back

Ah, Archwing ruined the reactions to the number of scum team speculation thing we had going here. I have inferno and theta as town from that.

sorry fam. lock me up.

i wasn't really enjoying the whole setup speccing thing going on there, and I recalled reading that during signups.

i personally thought that was extremely helpful
and in retrospect the scum team speculation was starting to go more tangential so although it could have been done for longer i am pretty sure most people who are not currently lurking did comment on it

[Theta Alpine]

by the way, do none of you read mafia discussion

Ascetic Miller

Boonskiies came up with this idea, and it struck me as so amusing I asked and received permission to share it here.

did you notice that boonskiies was the one who claimed it

[Theta Alpine]

by the way, do none of you read mafia discussion

Ascetic Miller

Boonskiies came up with this idea, and it struck me as so amusing I asked and received permission to share it here.

did you notice that boonskiies was the one who claimed it

what? i don't understand your implication here. i said this because people seemed to be assuming that the claim was anything but a joke / fakeclaim.

oh

i said that because i thought you were implying that it was not a joke / fakeclaim

[Theta Alpine]

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre
so i am going to go ahead and scum-read northsidegal and firebringer

of the two i do not have a preference and since i just noticed the rules do not forbid this

if 1 i will vote northsidegal
if 2 i will vote firebringer

Original Roll String: 1d2

1 2-Sided Dice: (1) = 1

[i look forward to this being used as an example of why provable randomness should/should not be allowed]

[Theta Alpine]

VOTE: firebringer

[Theta Alpine]

What about PeregrineV, Theta? What do you think about his lack of activity?

P-edit: My gut reaction says that this wall is either SvT or SvS.

if they have not posted in the game yet then i have no thoughts
it could be svt but i still lean towards svs

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre

No it does not. Scum theatre isn't usually this petty or simple.

i never said they were doing it correctly
just that from the timing and general feel it felt rehearsed and that they had more than one thread to talk in

[Theta Alpine]

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre
so i am going to go ahead and scum-read northsidegal and firebringer

of the two i do not have a preference and since i just noticed the rules do not forbid this

if 1 i will vote northsidegal
if 2 i will vote firebringer

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[i look forward to this being used as an example of why provable randomness should/should not be allowed]

Ummm I don’t know if I should just tell u ur dumb or what.

But what about me makes you assume that I would rehearse anything with a teammate.

Unless you think it went like this:
Nsg: hey let’s do some distancing
Firebringer: sure

it probably went more like
north said that they had been lurking and that someone could get a good town read off of a push on him
and you agreed

[Theta Alpine]

But what about me makes you assume that I would reverse anything with a teammate.

This is supposed to say rehearsal

This is a deflection tactic. Highly sus.

it felt rehearsed and that they had more than one thread to talk in

First off:
Masons.

All joking aside though, scum don't have daytalk. How do you propose resolving this statement?

we already have a neighborhood
so i have one question
does the neighborhood have daytalk

[Theta Alpine]

i am going to assume we actually do have a neighborhood with daytalk
but seriously
can someone from that neighborhood tell me if their role explicitly states that they can talk during the day

[Theta Alpine]

But what about me makes you assume that I would reverse anything with a teammate.

This is supposed to say rehearsal

This is a deflection tactic. Highly sus.

it felt rehearsed and that they had more than one thread to talk in

First off:
Masons.

All joking aside though, scum don't have daytalk. How do you propose resolving this statement?

we already have a neighborhood
so i have one question
does the neighborhood have daytalk

Um what? Yeah we have daytalk but it says scumteams, not all private chats. So obviously whatever logic is being used does not carry over.

that is not the point i wanted to make
the point i wanted to make was that it would be pretty unbalanced for there to be a neighborhood with daytalk and yet the scum team without daytalk
so scum probably do have an encryptor

[Theta Alpine]

although it would make sense if scum has their encryptor in your neighborhood
so that if they lose daytalk so does the neighborhood

[Theta Alpine]

nos- i thought about that but with 4

in the neighborhood and 4 to 6 scum in the faction i doubt it
that scenario would be more of a concern with a bigger neighborhood
of course we have not seen any flips yet so i can only guess at the balance of the game

but i think we can all agree that at least one of the following is true
- scum are in the neighborhood
- scum currently have daytalk

p-edit
i am seriously missing some context here and that sounds interesting so i am going to reread the last few pages

[Theta Alpine]

huh

this honestly feels rehearsed and like scum theatre
so i am going to go ahead and scum-read northsidegal and firebringer

of the two i do not have a preference and since i just noticed the rules do not forbid this

if 1 i will vote northsidegal
if 2 i will vote firebringer

Original Roll String: 1d2 (STATIC)

1 2-Sided Dice: (2) = 2

[i look forward to this being used as an example of why provable randomness should/should not be allowed]

((Voice of the faux IC: Provable randomness is usually banned, considered tantamount to cheating. Given how you narrowed the choices before the dice tags you're probably okay, but you're best off using different strategies))

the fact that it is usually banned is partially the reason why i did it
because there has been some discussion over why it is banned and one of the best ways to help shed light on that is to see how it can be used in a game

[Theta Alpine]

Yeah, this isn’t me not trying. I’m just a busy bee. Haha

from my [albeit] limited experience with boon i do have to agree that this feels more like busy as opposed to lacking motivation
not that i agree with either being boon or flavor leafs scum meta

nictis- i am in fact well aware of the fact that provable randomness is usually banned
and am also aware of much of the discussion about that fact

tldr for anyone who has no idea what i am talking about
will be in my next post [and in a spoiler] because i do have actual game-relevant text in this post

[Theta Alpine]

this is a bit more game-relevant than i intended it to be
however while i do note that my usage of provable randomness can also be used in a way that does in some way impair the town
my own usage of it was both to prove a point and also because i do not have time right now to do more detailed analysis of firebringer and north [aka because i was lazy]

Spoiler: tldr in this case respective to several threads worth of information

most games played on mafiascum will have a rule disallowing provable randomness
the reason being something between tradition [something that was added to the rules because every other game added it] - few legitimate reasons to use it [which is true- my own usage here could have just been a coin flip out of game] - and because it was apparently abused in the past [which i am not entirely sure about as other than one case i have not figured out how that could be done myself]

my own take on it is this

laziness is in most cases the only reason it should be used in mafia - with major exceptions for the mod of the game or when a game mechanic makes use of it

when i used it what i should have actually done is evaluate either which of them were more likely to be scum or barring that which of the two is more likely to get lynched
because i used it in this case i could have gotten up to 3 benefits for having used it
- i cannot be accused of picking one over the other
- i am able to imply that my reasoning for thinking one of them is scum is the same as my reasoning for the other being scum [normally without actually saying that - although in my specific case i worded it in such a way that i did]
- i do not have to come up with as strong of a reason to vote the person picked - as any rebuttal would normally be made to the argument that both are scum

the other major reason it could be used [and what nictis was referencing] would be using provable randomness as your rvs vote
this defeats the purpose of rvs - and i would support policy lynching someone who tried it

a minor variation of the above is when it occurs later in the game
and while this could be theoretically used if town is deadlocked there are much better methods - provable randomness would be more of a last resort to get discussion going

the last use cases i will touch on are provable randomness when doing analysis of all players [when picking who to analyze next] and provable randomness when mass claiming [when selecting which player claims next]
the first can be handled in many other ways so there is not much of a reason to use it here - the second is honestly the only time i could actually see provable randomness being used in a way that is positive for town

p-edit
i really shouldn't be surprised at the number of posts that were made while i was writing this

p-edit
we do not yet know much about the balance of the game
and if scum do not have daychat then i personally think they will have more than 1 member in the neighborhood

[Theta Alpine]

Is it wrong if I locktown Theta for this
pedit: nice retraction buddy, everyone already sees you're wrong

like i said that was intended to not be very relevant to this game

also because i do not have time right now to do more detailed analysis of firebringer and north [aka because i was lazy]

It was anything but lazy my friend.

But it also is pointless.

was lazy
i was originally going to talk about it post game in mafia discussion
and again
it was intended to be more helpful for game setup and mafia theory as a whole
instead of helpful for this game

Oh happy belated by the way!

thanks
the timing of it this year was pretty ridiculous though

[Theta Alpine]

PeregrineV has returned. He may keep the slot with one prod against him.

at this point i would have waited until he posts to say this
although now you can start counting towards his next prod i guess

and now probably time for me to stop being lazy
soon



i just undid a whole lot of work after realizing i need to do so much more work before having any more reads that i trust myself to say

well besides boon being tentatively town

p-edit
that was a vote on boon and you really should have known that

[Theta Alpine]

good luck flubber.

side note, couldn't get access to the site for majority of today... did anyone else notice that? or is that a me issue? cause i could get to every other site. I was chalking it up to a maintenance thing?
as a result I haven't done the reading i was supposed to. I will try to find time in the next day or so.

i have also been having trouble with this, as have several others just going off of the posts in the shelter
regardless i should be able to access the forums for now

@assemble i would include an alternate method of contact with your prods in case this issue is what is preventing them from posting

[Theta Alpine]

on page 29 and reading
hopefully i will not have any more issues with accessing the site

not yet sure what to make of pines reads
i do not agree with all of them though [flavor leaf and firebringer would be two examples]

[Theta Alpine]

hey its mulch

not yet sure if that is entirely a good thing though his catch-up seems pretty good so far
the number of pages we've got makes a bit more sense now too

[Theta Alpine]

2iam

i am pretty sure the quote pyramids are your fault
since you were the common factor in both

[Theta Alpine]

i had no time this weekend
and i am vainly hoping that gets better somehow

Flavor leaf is extremely towny

Trust me, I know his scum game

And when one of us are scum, we usually get in a 1v1 whereas when we’re both town we argue about which one of our pushes is the correct one.

this is true
and i believe mulch and flavor are town now

i need to read the game now though
cause i have no clue what is even going on now

also i thought i unvoted
or was that in the post i rewrote right before posting
either way UNVOTE:

[Theta Alpine]

ugh why am i not paying attention to this game

let me iso 2iam and mordin/quick/luv and then say what i think about both
since at this point i do not think a lynch on anyone else is feasible

[Theta Alpine]

2iam i do not want to lynch yet
i currently town lean based on what other people have said though

mordin
i want to see them post more
therefore no lynching them either

egg
i do not see why egg is scum
i also do not know if egg is town

however
after reading mulchs iso to see why he is voting egg i noticed his scum read of flubber and after doing a quick read on flubber
i am fine with lynching flubber
so
VOTE: flubbernugget

[Theta Alpine]

Theta, the deadline is in 2 days. Since 2iam is ahead by 1 in the voting, he will be lynched. Your one-off vote is telling me that you are OK with the 2iam lynch, or at least, that you prefer it to Mordin.

it is slightly over 2 days
when it is less than 2 days is when changing the wagon is impractical

2iam, Why are you so sure you won't be lynched? And there are 6 people voting you. I pretty sure they can't all be scum.

not everyone on 2iam is scum [probably]
that does not rule out the possibility that all of the scum are on 2iam [not that i think that has happened]

Or that they're scum floundering over how to handle the lynch

This game would have to be bastard as fuck for that to happen dude

you are now lock scum in my eyes for this reaction to a little bit of pressure

[Theta Alpine]

Hmmm, those are unusual rules.

those are the normal rules for plurality

[Theta Alpine]

@Theta Alpine - you’re on a vanity wagon. There is zero chance of Flubber being lynched today. Please join me on Mordi to help stop ObvTown Two from being lynched.

One of the people on the vanity wagons are likely scum, so Nosf, Nictis, and profii need to be remembered.

well know there is no chance
my read on the mordin/quick/luv slot is null/slight scum lean
2iam is definitely lynchbait though
i am pretty sure they would not make a lot of those posts as scum unless they wanted to keep a buddy alive or were desperate for other reasons

also ausuka
i am pretty sure [almost] everyone not voting 2iam right now townreads or at least has stated they will not be voting 2iam at this point
so i mean maybe but not likely
at any rate i prefer that slot to 2iam as well and to prevent any silly last-minute swings onto lynchbait i will VOTE: mordin solus now

texcat nictis inferno
i do realize that 2iam lied
now do you really think scum 2iam would not fact check that defense before posting it

[Theta Alpine]

okay that is the second time i accidentally got now/know mixed up
i am usually better than that

[Theta Alpine]

i do not think redflavor is important enough for a lynch

also fire you said you were a cop
should i assume that north was the person you checked

finally current reads are as follows
should include all of the claims that were not retracted

-town
/flavor leaf [town neighbor]

-probably town
twoinamillion [neighbor]
pine [2-shot ascetic vig]
mulch
ausuka
gamma emerald [neighbor]

-might be town
inferno390
egg
texcat

-null/town
profii

-null
theta alpine
archwing

-null/scum
redflavor
nictis

-might be scum
northsidegal
flubbernugget

-probably scum
firebringer [cop]
beefster

-scum
/nosferatu [scum rolecop]
/mordin [scum neighbor]

[Theta Alpine]

oh
well that changes things
i guess i mixed up the mason fake claim and the neighborhood claims

null/scum basically means i have not really read you [that part applies to everyone in a null category except me] and that from what i remember i though of you as scummy somehow

p-edit
yes
i did put myself as null
read some of my games and you will see i almost always do this

[Theta Alpine]

also archwing
the town tier and scum tier are for confirmed town and scum

also i believe the 2-shot ascetic vig is an active variation
as in ascetic only when making a vig shot and only has 2 vig shots

[Theta Alpine]

wait i misread that

pine is an ascetic 2-shot vigilante
and so they are always ascetic and have two vigilante shots

[Theta Alpine]

that would be reflexive ascetic 2-shot vig though
with the reflexive being when activating your vig shot

[Theta Alpine]

usually it is
it can be different if specified

2-shot ascetic vig could be the same thing if it is stated that the shots activate both the ascetic and the vig
x-shot just usually only targets one facet of a role when multiple facets are present

p-edit
okay
no lynching fire today then

[Theta Alpine]

I've possibly underestimated a 20 player game, it's moving a little bit faster than I expected. Apologies.

I'm not particularly inclined to deal any further with the hood, given we have picked 1 scum out of it. I know some of you are mentioning SSTT but I'm going to sort elsewhere for now.

I think Mulch & Pine are fairly obviously town - furthermore, I prefer the idea of letting the day run on before we lynch. I'm assuming from what Pine is saying, he has to kill tonight? so let's help him.

I also think TIAM is probably town.

Interestingly, going back to when Mordin and TIAM were nearly level pegging we had

Mordin:
Flavor Leaf, Archwing, Gamma Emerald, texcat, Ausuka, TwoInAMillion, Mulch

TIAM
Egg, northsidegal, RedFlavor, Inferno390, Beefster, Flubbernugget


At this point, Nos wasn't voting, so that says to me, Scum probably weren't bussing at this point. So from the Mordin wagon, we know FL and I'm happy with TIAM/Mulch/Gamma. I'll give Tex/Aus/Arch a pass for now. If you pushed me, I'd lean Archwing, purely for his earlier buddying towards me is causing paranoia.

So then, let's look at how the lynch came about:

Flavor Leaf, Archwing, Gamma Emerald, texcat, Ausuka, TwoInAMillion

, Nictis, Theta Alpine,

Mulch

, Flubbernugget,

Mordin Solus

I've sorted the strikes in my head, I'm happy with Mulch and we know Mordin

excluding mulch who I'm happy with, only flubber nugget jumped over... let's go ISO diving...

ok naked vote and no real explanation - early analysis, flubber bussed.

VOTE: flubber

i would add the fact that flubber was previously on the counterwagon

speaking of which
VOTE: flubbernugget
then pine can shoot beefster

[Theta Alpine]

As in 2-shot Ascetic Vig, rather than Ascetic 2-shot vig.

which is why i said later that i had misread your role

[Theta Alpine]

I'd like to propose that red flavor gets the lynch today, and beef gets the vig.

Pedit. I'd still really like to hear from NSG about all of this.

personally i want flubber and beef but i could be swayed

I claimed cop yesterday because I knew scum would think I was faking and not kill me
I claimed my results because I don’t care about crumbing and want record straight

yeah the whole did i claim vig or cop bit was pretty good
i still have doubts as to your claim myself

so here is my proposition
lynch on flubber/red flavor
vig on beefster
cop on profii

[Theta Alpine]

so

what are we waiting on exactly

p-edit
ah
we are waiting on more votes
like mulch i doubt this is actually scum
but i though that at first for mordin also so yeah VOTE: redflavor

[Theta Alpine]

I'm sensing a... prickly vibe from you.

probably all the needles

I wish yall would take a look at Theta Alpine. I'm still stuck on that statement about RedFlavor not being important enough to lynch. I guess they changed their mind about it, since they are now voting Red, but Theta never responded to me.

generic response here
also seriously just ask mulch or anyone else who has played with me before if that statement actually means anything coming from me

gamma and inferno are the remaining hood members.

and not gamma and 2iam

so why can't we just lynch profii and lynch beefster?

because we are going to lynch profii or beefster today and then vig the other [yeah i know archwing said this just repeating it]

honestly? I really think you (and that isn't just archwing) are really overthinking this, and that the game would probably end quite quickly if we actually kill the scum we've caught. scum appear to have just given up completely- not many suspicious players are actually trying.

yep
town has gone and started second-guessing themselves when we have the game almost solved
there is likely 2 or 3 scum left so with all of a lynch cop and vig we can literally have everything settled day 3

also kind of just realized that we should not be trying to solve the game completely today
we have done enough solving for today and we really should just validate what we have figured out up to this point

VOTE: profii

[Theta Alpine]

claiming tracker

red flavor went nowhere night one
firebringer targeted flubbernugget night two

[Theta Alpine]

Pine I actually blocked ausuka n1
Get rekttt

you know this might have worked

except i had no idea how i was going to crumb my action tonight so i decided to just claim at start of day

[Theta Alpine]

I crumbed my role like 1086 time in this day

and i have already counterclaimed that you made no action night 1

[Theta Alpine]

wow

good job pine
i personally thought mulch was the sk
though obviously i was wrong about that

p-edit
yeah
i was really wondering why town had at least two investigative roles combined with everything else
also i think this game was partially balanced around the sk actually killing instead of hiding

[Theta Alpine]

oh so that explains why we did not have 3 kills night 2
huh
yeah this game was definitely balanced around an active sk

p-edit
all the logbooks are unlocked as well

[Theta Alpine]

yep
my first win as town as well as my first game where town won

also the whole redflavor is not important thing was an attempt at a crumb
and also because a did not go anywhere does indicate that the target is not as likely to be scum as someone else
of course since they were a traitor they were never going to be able to do an action at all