[Meta] Newbie Experience (Formerly IC replace rate thread)

[mastina]

I thought ICs were reviewed every game, but I don't see that happening.

Only new ICs.
And we do have a queue, it just...
...Moves slowly.

Part of that is this: Subject: Listmod Applications (Closes Tuesday)

We are looking for a new newbie list mod.

Unfortunately, UTL has to step down from her duties.

The listmod for doing that process is stepping down, so the person who would normally handle that process is unable to do so.

When we get a new listmod, I imagine that this issue will be addressed. It might take a little time to resolve, but it'd be one of the first things on the agenda.

[mastina]

I don't actually know what the ideal sort of reward would be.

To be honest I think rewarding people for just being an IC is a Really Bad Idea. Then you're encouraging literally everyone no matter how ill-suited for the position they may be to be an IC once, in order to get the reward, and then only doing it again if they get more of a reward.

This sounds like a recipe for disaster, making people IC for an agenda and not really care about the core of what ICing

should

be about: teaching the next generation of players how to play and just as importantly,

making them want to play on here

. It's one thing to teach players how to play. (Most newbies already do on other sites.) It's quite another to keep them interested in playing on the site.

Any IC who isn't interested in that shouldn't be an IC. Because the best reward FROM being a teacher is to watch the players you taught make a career, growing in the future.

[mastina]

Only new ICs.

I never saw me being reviewed as an IC...

And we do have a queue, it just...
...Moves slowly.

Part of that is this: Subject: Listmod Applications (Closes Tuesday)

We are looking for a new newbie list mod.

Unfortunately, UTL has to step down from her duties.

The listmod for doing that process is stepping down, so the person who would normally handle that process is unable to do so.

When we get a new listmod, I imagine that this issue will be addressed. It might take a little time to resolve, but it'd be one of the first things on the agenda.

[mastina]

Mastina/RC, do you have alternate suggestions on how to keep the IC queue healthy? It's bone dry and there's a replacement request active for it right now.

It'd be a greater workload, but one thing which might help is having the IC review group review not just new ICs but offer feedback to any IC who wants feedback on their play (probably as an opt-in thing for non-new ICs): what they did well, what they could use improvement on, but always having it be positive reinforcement.

If you're putting things down and if you're placing blame on the IC for faults in the game, it very strongly discourages someone from ICing again. The IC should have just as much of a positive experience as the players they are teaching, and if that is not the case, if the IC feels like a failure, feels like they are unjustly being called out or whatever negative emotion dominates them, that's simply a situation which is not fun for them.

There's a bit of a dilemma when it comes to an IC.
On the one hand, we want to hold our ICs to a certain standard, which encourages newbies to stick around on-site and grow into healthy behaviors. An IC not doing that is not doing their job.
On the other hand, we want to encourage people TO IC, and if they feel like they're going to receive that level of harsh criticism that can discourage them from doing the job: if they think they'll fail, they simply won't try. If they think they're ill-suited for the job, they won't try. If they think they'll receive too much hate, they won't try.

And that deprives us of the people we need.

This might not give an immediate solution but might in the long-term offer a little extra help, since positive reinforcement will encourage ICs to keep ICing and go.

Another thing which could be done is encouraging players in certain queues once they get more experience after a game has ended to if they want, share their knowledge with the world by ICing.

But I'm honestly not sure.
To get ICs, you need to make people WANT to IC.
To make people WANT to IC, you have to make them want to also fulfill the objectives OF an IC.
And that revolves kicking up interest in improving the quality of play across the site, encouraging people to teach good habits in the new generation, sharing knowledge with the next generation, and so on and so forth. I don't quite know how that can be accomplished.

[mastina]

I think an IC support group is a better idea than rewards.

The closest we have is the review group for ICs, which could be retooled to serve this purpose.

[mastina]

They mght as well rename it the Matrix 6 queue

Actually.
This is a good segue into an idea I think would give players great interest in playing.

Having more than just one setup in the rotation for the newbie queue.
Yes, having just one setup allows for quicker data collection. (Larger sample size in a shorter span of time.)
Yes, having one universal game setup makes things more consistent.
Yes, having one universal setup makes things relatively simple and easy to understand.
Yes, having one universal setup makes things easier to teach to newbies.

But while those are all undeniably good things, they come with massive drawbacks, namely:
The newbie queue can be monotonous.
The newbie queue teaches newbies how to play the newbie setup but doesn't prepare them for how to play on the rest of mafiascum. (This right here is a biggie!)

If there were a variety of semiopens being run rather than just the one, then I legitimately think we'd be getting many more experienced players willing to play. The SE queue would pile up in no time flat, and eventually some of those would-be-SEs would decide to try their hands at ICing.
I also think that with multiple setups in the rotation, newbies would be exposed to a wider variety of what mafiascum has to offer, allowing them to acclimate better.

The problem with this is finding out how to get MULTIPLE newbie-friendly, balanced semiopen setups when we're having trouble getting so much as one.

[mastina]

One thing I have noticed is that newbie games appear to require a lot more brain power than other games. There's definitely a culture shock shifting from the road to other games and that might contribute to retention rate or lack thereof (for both newbies and ICs, really). I dunno if that's helpful, but ... you never know?

I still maintain my theory that running the same setup--even a semiopen one--with no alternatives may contribute to this because literally every single queue outside the newbie queue is going to have different game setups. Even the queues "closest" to newbies. (Opens for setup, Micros for size, Normals for type.)

They have variety of type and content within which newbies don't get exposure to.

[mastina]

Is that not why there is a limit to the amount of times one can be a "newbie" in the newbie queue? It allows them to get used to site meta, and then it encourages them to branch out after two games (if not before) to experience different types of games. It also allows them to come back and play that setup whenever they want to after gaining experience with other types of games and players.

I don't have the stats to back it but I believe that the period where newbies leave to experience other queues is where we have most of the ones who don't immediately flake, flake out. I just think that they're not prepared to leave yet our rules force them to leave so they do--and then leave the site soon after.

Something which could be worth pursuing: if we have a newbie shortage, we could loosen our definition of newbie, and then when we have an overabundance of newbies in the queue, tighten it up again. (Other queues have variable systems like this, and the newbie queue also does with the 2 SE vs. 3 SE distribution too.) If there were also multiple setups to go along with this, that could encourage newbies to get a wider array of experience, so that the shock isn't too large...yet also still have them leave the queue

reasonably

early so they're not a perpetual newbie.

[mastina]

Fwiw I kinda think it'd be ok to let newbies play THREE games in newbie queue before needing to be se status. Just my $0.02 tho.

^Basically something like this but on maybe a larger scale.

I think that, optimally, we want a system where newbies can spend enough time in the newbie queue to become acclimated to our site, and are comfortable, but also don't become

dependent

on newbie-style games such that the culture shock is so extreme when leaving that they can't actually cope.

To some extent, players (more experienced SEs and ICs) can help with this but I also feel the system itself can assist in efforts there.

[mastina]

There used to be a feedback mechanism. Needs to start up again.

Would it be possible to link to that and see how easy it'd be to update/improve/re-implement? I don't actually remember this mechanism but I'm interested in it.

[mastina]

A survey like what zor used to do for large theme games might be a better approach. Mods could post a link in postgame, or someone could PM a link to players in completed games every couple weeks or once a month or something like that.

If it's not too much work to the listmod, I had in mind the listmod posting the survey as soon as the game is finished.

Waiting until the game has been archived is waiting too long in my opinion since even if you archive liberally, newbies aren't likely to read the game after the first 48 hours or so of postgame.

[mastina]

Btw reading through this thread may be relevant.

[mastina]

Why do you need an ic?

Basically: There is no substitute for a player able to give live feedback without repercussions to the feedback containing game content--game moderators cannot give help without it being mod interference until postgame; SEs are under no obligation to teach and can themselves be essentially newbies experience-wise.

[mastina]

For a point of reference--

You make being an IC sound really complicated. An IC is really just more experienced than the other players in a newbie game on this site. Your main job is to teach people how to play on this site. For the most part all that requires is for you to play the game and then give post game tips after it's over. Occasionally you might find the odd player or two who have no idea what they're doing and you might need to prod/guide them into what to do. But really it's not that complicated. The experience is going to teach the players way more than the IC ever actually will. People tend to overvalue the role of the IC in general in the learning process.

What you're describing as an IC is what most people consider the SE to be, more or less.

Whether that's accurate or not is another matter, but what you were describing literally sounds like a common descriptor for the SE position. Which is usually considered "less than an IC" overall.