Team Mafia Death Thread

[Kagami]

Can we replace Smocaine with Eddie Cane?

[ActionDan]

I don't think I played like shit in WF. I think it was more run of the mill than anything else, which is a pity. I'm still never going to be a high-volume poster. I also do not overmuch regret my positions on CES or Dunnstral or their changes.

At the moment the teams are LQ/Ran or Shadoweh/XXX where XXX could be anyone. My bet is regardless of partner lynching Shadoweh will win game.

[Kagami]

Shadoweh is most assuredly scum, AD

[Kagami]

(So you died full of correctness)

[ActionDan]

yay!

[Kagami]

I forget, what was your TSQ read?

[ActionDan]

that was town for the whole game.

Although now there is a high chance he's scum

[Kagami]

Yes, it's TSQ/Shadoweh.

[Kagami]

TSQ played a good game, and I agree that black goo was one of the better teams. Shame we have to destroy them in the tiebreak if they win this.

[ActionDan]

Shame, that

[Mina]

@Katsuki: so why exactly did Smocaine take the scum PM? Just as WIFOM?

[Kagami]

We expected to swap him from the get-go.

[Alisae]

Kats I for one enjoyed all of the pepes

[Jingle]

I feel like your rules were rather oppresive to actually trying to solve based on what mathdino was arguing, the scum preferences thing
Like from the omission of rule 6 I got the feeling you wanted us to treat the games like individual units and not a cohesive set

Okay, first things first.

The way the universal ruleset was developed was pretty much just me and Elli, AFAIR. The mods were allowed to make their own individual thread rules, which caused a couple of slight problems philosophy wise, but anyone's issues with the universal ruleset can pretty much blame me. I would definitely say that next time, the ruleset should be standardized between all games, but that was just not something I considered before the games had already started.

I was gonna post a big wall about my philosophy with regards to each individual rule, but it kinda looks like no one really cares past #6.

As far as Rule #6 goes, it was originally designed because we didn't want to discourage angleshooting. If someone wanted to play the way MD did, good on them. (I still think it is inherently the wrong way to win Team Mafia because I believe that all of you went about team construction and role assignment backwards, but :shrug:)

What we did want and need to discourage was talking about ongoing games, even ongoing TM games. One of the big philosophies driving the rules here was that the games were separate. Each player was responsible for their own game. They could take advice from their partners, but they had to choose what was worth saying and how to say it on their own (hence, paraphrase not copy). Our choice was to make anything publicly available before roles went out A-OK, and restrict what could be talked about afterwards. The idea was that you could argue a player was more likely to be scum than another from the same team, but you couldn't actively talk about who was or wasn't scum in other games. This ideally would have stopped cross game signalling as well as the temptation to throw one game for another. (Well, clearly we're going to lose in Magical Stories, so I'll out the scumteam there to help lynch probscum here, for example, was a huge no-no and would have been an instant modkill had it happened/had I seen it happen.) The reason we edited it halfway through the event was because we had already had to issue many warnings to many players/teams, and we decided to just blanket ban everything so that we wouldn't end up with more modkills/force replaces. Frankly, I was disappointed that so few people took us up on the "PM us to check and see if it's okay" bit.

On the enforcement side of things:

Any infraction that can be reasonably assumed to have confirmed someone's alignment was a modkill. And infraction breaking the rules we tried to determine both risk to the game state and the intentions behind the infraction and then deliver a warning or force replace accordingly. As a modteam, we probably beat most of the Team PTs discussing rules and the correct punishments in our discord. With that said, I think any future competitions should probably have a stricter, longer, codified ruleset, and would be happy to discuss them in MD after the event.

If anyone has questions regarding individual judgments, please wait until the event is over and I'll take a stab at explaining the why behind what we did. If anyone has any questions about individual rules, feel free to ask right away.

[Ellibereth]

I agree with all of the above (and thank you Jingle for writing it) except for:

but anyone's issues with the universal ruleset can pretty much blame me

Ellibereth should have been appended to/replaced me there.

[Katsuki]

@Katsuki: so why exactly did Smocaine take the scum PM? Just as WIFOM?

Kagami stuck me on the town PR. :/

Kats I for one enjoyed all of the pepes

Thanks! I'm glad a good number of people were able to enjoy them.

[Gamma Emerald]

So arguments like Mathdino made were fine but throwing based on that is bad and discussing non-public knowledge (like knowing someone is scum in game x because you're part of the team, thus shaping your thoughts on their whole team) is bad? I guess that second thing is why you have to always think as if your teammates are town, to discourage that sort of information abuse.

[Mathdino]

So arguments like Mathdino made were fine but throwing based on that is bad and discussing non-public knowledge (like knowing someone is scum in game x because you're part of the team, thus shaping your thoughts on their whole team) is bad? I guess that second thing is why you have to always think as if your teammates are town, to discourage that sort of information abuse.

i mean i obviously would never do this and i would consider it incredibly disingenuous to harm one game to help another

but that's also my natural disposition toward townplay

the super borderline things i did were basically

- potential implication that hebichan acted weird because of alignment knowledge in her other games (her team was scum in more than one game)

- arguing that gerryoat flipping town meant that entire team was town

the slightly borderline things i did were

- shitting on transcend's behaviour in ether's game after he subbed into smith's game

- trying to get my team to ask other teams who had discord so NSG and i could get better team-based reads on bins's team

and admittedly (thank you eddie cane ) the crossed the line thing i did was
- literally using the preview box to paraphrase discord chats, accidentally hitting submit, and then getting a mod to delete it

[Mathdino]

oh yeah i also told my entire team to creature-test spam squad

100% success rate, LQ/UCV town with sheep/Mulch scum

there might've been other things i asked my whole team to ask a particular other whole team

but it was all for the end goal of solving our collective towngames together

[Mathdino]

oh yeah i found that team-wide tell on black goo that confirmed CDB as town after i was dead

so i had the idea of asking NSG to publish that tell and argue it applied to patrick, singer, primate, and fenchurch (and also making CES-scum)

in the hopes that someone would pick up on it and then apply it to CDB/mina

but she correctly realised that that was a little too angleshooty

[Kagami]

Why do all that when only Inventions mattered for your team?

[Mathdino]

Why do all that when only Inventions mattered for your team?

what exactly could i have done as an individual to try to pull off the win in Inventions

i'm more of a high-level scum strategiser. i can't provide the content but i can provide the direction. was my idea to try to hide our scumbuddies from our whole team (which was a good idea until we realised that other players didn't give a shit about other teams' reads anyway)

i basically spammed GL to tell RC that the "suddenly bus GL out of nowhere" idea was terrible

this was apparently not enough to stop the trainwreck

once GL was alone and was behind in all the games i decided it wasn't worth the effort

also it's pretty rich to argue that only inventions mattered when the 2 towngames i put the most effort into (GIFs and White Flag) STILL went to 5p lylo after so many bad lynches

my skill is as a town player, so i'm going to put all my effort into sweeping our towngames

[Jingle]

TBF, GL was pretty much screwed by the RC/mastina lynches. If he'd been able to argue his way through the rest of that game I'd have been astonished, especially with the functionally conftown slots and the mechanics punishing letting people get conftowned.

[Mathdino]

other things NSG/KMD and i (mainly i) tried to do:

- confirm A50's entire team as town after the momo flip and sauce replace-out

- try to see who claimed "our team got all 5 town PMs but i'd have taken scum if we got a scum PM" to try to list all the teams with and without scum on them

- get NSG to spew KMD as town by talking to postie about how ranmaru could've been scum after the toranaga fake guilty (RC unfortunately also had this idea and played us back by spewing Firebringer as town, my main deadwrong townread all tournament)

- repeatedly try to get NSG to use NSG/ranmaru as a medium for me to talk to A50 about how to solve white flag (locktowning each other in the process). am sad ranmaru wasn't around the whole tournament or apparently understand what was going on. i think his reads/play would've been much better otherwise

chesskid was like "why is mathdino coaching your entire team" to GL (which i feel was a rule break???) and this shit is why
it had a concrete benefit to my reads in white flag and the GIF game, or at least in PoEing people out of the lynchpool
unfortunately people then just lynched the people in my neverlynchpool anyway lolololol

[Gamma Emerald]

oh yeah i also told my entire team to creature-test spam squad

100% success rate, LQ/UCV town with sheep/Mulch scum

there might've been other things i asked my whole team to ask a particular other whole team

but it was all for the end goal of solving our collective towngames together

I feel like LQ failed the creature test?