Open 720: NOIR (GAME OVER)

[ceejayvinoya]

Why are we dragging scumtells out of reads lists? Asking why a person is tr or sr is fine I guess. But to go and say "I don't like this list. You're scum" won't help us.

The intent behind readslists is = important to the content of the list

Unless you know the posters alignment

Um. The intent of readslists are to sort people right?

[Oxy]

K...

a) Yes there is, I said why
b) K
c) really? If duckling turns around now and says "gee Sando your attack on Oxy is deserving of a lynch" you're not going to be a little suspicious?
d) he expressed it and continues to back it up, that's kinda what we're looking for here.
e) K

a) agree to disagree
c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.
d) ok

So hang on, duckling points out why someone was wrong (and you agree he's correct), but I'm wrong to think that gives him townpoints?

Yes, we disagree here. I think it's NAI because I think it's easily done from both alignments. I think his multiple posts being helpful are also NAI.

That said, I think they did help people, and that is a behavior to be encouraged. It's NAI, outside of a meta case, though...

[the worst]

Why are we dragging scumtells out of reads lists? Asking why a person is tr or sr is fine I guess. But to go and say "I don't like this list. You're scum" won't help us.

The intent behind readslists is = important to the content of the list

Unless you know the posters alignment

Um. The intent of readslists are to sort people right?

For town--yes!

Scum win by spinning a narrative which is believable, in which they (and often their buddies!) are town + worth keeping alive until endgame. On this basis scum unconsciously construct read lists which are 1) false, 2) do not incriminate them in the event of a mislynch and 3) obviously benefit their narrative

[Sando]

Oxy, I get the feeling from all of this that you're determined that nothing can be a towntell or be a reasonable basis for reading someone town. I both disagree with that and find it independently scummy. I also find it particularly scummy in the context of trying to get me to prove a negative.

[mutantdevle]

Cool so it's 4 AM where I am and I'm only awake because of energy drinks so I'm kinda hyper and trying to process what the fuck is going on between writing endless paragraphs for my college work...

I feel like I'm not understanding a lot of what is being said because it's confusing me and I'm having to reread posts like 7 times. So basically, I'm online and reading but I if I start posting serious shit it's just all going to be shit logic and people are just gonna' be like "no you fool, I meant it this way!" so I'm online and reading but not posting for now.

I'll re-read everything after I'm in a fit state to concentrate on this which will probably be later today or tomorrow or something or maybe not tomorrow because I'm busy then and it feels weird saying tomorrow, since, y'know, it's 4 AM and still feels like Thursday.

[the worst]

LOL devle get some sleep!

[Sando]

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

[mutantdevle]

LOL devle get some sleep!

But I have 6000 words to write :(

[the worst]

LOL devle get some sleep!

But I have 6000 words to write

On mafia or like an essay?

[Oxy]

Oxy, I get the feeling from all of this that you're determined that nothing can be a towntell or be a reasonable basis for reading someone town. I both disagree with that and find it independently scummy. I also find it particularly scummy in the context of trying to get me to prove a negative.

This would be an incorrect assessment of my view on towntells and reading people. Also, proving town is not the same as proving not scum, but that's besides the point.

I wanted to see your thought process. If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling. It wasn't. That's not necessarily AI, so the effort didn't result in great read progress, and I snapped back when you snapped at me.

Good interaction overall. Would do again.

[Oxy]

LOL devle get some sleep!

But I have 6000 words to write

On mafia or like an essay?

Was that the entirety of the interaction you were looking to have with me?

Demanding that I create a new strong read on the spot

and then calling it scummy when I don't?

This is

real

scum hunting?

[Quick]

I'd vote someone else, but I like where my vote is at least until I get an answer from NM.

[mutantdevle]

LOL devle get some sleep!

But I have 6000 words to write

On mafia or like an essay?

Just course work in general. I have to evaluate all my ideas and test pieces and I've done A LOT of ideas and test pieces so that's A LOT of writing to go with it. I'm expecting at least 6000 words from myself though I'll probably end up writing more.

I have maoams though so all's good.

[ceejayvinoya]

I'm of the opinion that Sando vs Oxy is TvT. They both have good points.

[Fumuki]

Sorry for the absence but it won't get better until April 15 (I have a important test coming up and maybe signed up more games than I can handle...).

My thoughts in the events around here is that we're in phase that I don't like much. The overly-analytical phase. We don't have much to discuss so we need to discuss little details and I recommend to not be much confident in the reads we have now, it's only for the sake of progress I would say. In a side note, I am yet to study devil and post any further thoughts.

I'm someone that doesn't easily put people in the solid townread or solid scumread (when I do, expect me sure as hell to try to serious get a wagon/case on you persistently), and even though I would say that I like how the worst is being active and open to discussion, I'm not willing to put him in townlean without a further analysis (yeah, I totally don't go along with gut feelings). Oxy seems like, independent of AI, someone that has a strategic mindset and doesn't put much faith in gut reads (I know, he did townread Alonzo just for the birthday thing, however, I think there's some logic behind it, although first it's needed to sort what kind of person Alonzo is. When I say gut reads I refer to mere impressions that people get from a player but can't even put in good words).

CJ is kind of taking the role of moderator pointing out useful comments about how to make progress in the interactions, but again, it can be scum avoiding became the discussion topic. Quick...seems like has a uncommon mindset...I'm not confident in pointing anything about him. Korina...well...I want to check Korina games myself later...

Alonzo isn't talking much...

Now, what I really am worried about at the moment: lurking.

Iconeum has five posts, Not_Mafia has nine and Spartan only one. That's dangerous. Even if lurking is NAI, the doubt and paranoia that later on lurkers create in lylo or close to lylo for example is dangerous.

Spartan already said is busy IRL so we can only hope things get better, but Iconeum hasn't said anything and Not_Mafia...*sighs*...he really lurks...in every game...? Is there anything we can do for him to post here? I don't mind shitposting, as long as he's being active and explaining what he's thinking.

I know it's rude, but if you think you can't make up time to be here in a near future, maybe it's better to replace than doing anti-prod posts...

[Sando]

If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling.

Rofl so none of the stuff I've talked about are towntells, but a good thought process would be...righto mate. Pretty sure my thought process is the same whether I'm town or scum,

Also dis:

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

[Fumuki]

Afterwards I'll give a good analyze and post my "readlist" (not a real readlist...I don't like to create a readlist when there's not much to basis it on and therefore people will fluctuate positions because of...for example, 1 or 2 posts?). Well, at least I'll post my impressions about what's happening in greater detail.

[Quick]

Also dis:

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

Uh, no, I don't think he is saying anything even close to that?

[Oxy]

If there was a really good thought process, it would have helped me solidify my town read on you, and potentially help me sort the duckling.

Rofl so none of the stuff I've talked about are towntells, but a good thought process would be...righto mate. Pretty sure my thought process is the same whether I'm town or scum,

Also dis:

c) I'm assuming a halfway decent ability to bullshit in your average scum.

So what you're effectively saying is that it's just as easy for a halfway decent scum to wind-back their strong town-read as it is to wind back their weak town-reads?

You and I do not agree on your first point. If thought processes were identical for town and scum, optimal scum hunting would be rolling a die.

Yeah, actually, well reasoned reads can often give insight into a mind set that is distinctly town. Poorly reasoned ones can sometimes lead to the same result, but I find it easier to gauge motivation in well reasoned posts because it precludes the question of "scum or dumb?"

[Quick]

I'm feeling pretty good about the way Oxy is handling the pressure.

[Oxy]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

[Sando]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

Ok, so you're saying that:

a) It's harder for scum to wind back a strong townread than a weak townread
b) There's zero reason for scum not to give a strong townread

You can see why I find that a little odd maybe?

[the worst]

I'm feeling pretty good about the way Oxy is handling the pressure.

Quick, want some popcorn?

[Oxy]

oh yeah, no, I was not making that statement.

but at the same time I wouldn't say that reversing a strong read is inherently scummy. New information can and should be able to change people's opinions.

And scum can take advantage of that. Why not?

Ok, so you're saying that:

a) It's harder for scum to wind back a strong townread than a weak townread
b) There's zero reason for scum not to give a strong townread

You can see why I find that a little odd maybe?

Yes this is an accurate representation of my opinion. I think you'll find plenty of games in which scum gives a relatively strong early town read. And if that weren't the case, scums would start doing it just to get town cred. And then maybe you could come up with some percentage of time that it would be correct for scum to give a strong town read and a percentage of time for town to just consider it a town read, but I'm not doing a dissertation here. At a basic level, it's just not AI.

Yeah, it's odd because you disagree, like it's odd to me that you think a player has identical thought processes as either alignment.

[Oxy]

Oh are you saying that because it is somewhat harder for scum to reverse a strong town read than a weaker town read that it is sub optimal for scum to give strong town reads?

Give me a break. The wifom case for giving a strong town read under this assumption far outweighs any strategic disadvantage that comes from town binning a single player. This is especially true when some percentage of the time that strong town read is actually a scum partner.