Open 720: NOIR (GAME OVER)


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Post Post #675 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:53 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 670, Sando wrote:
In post 660, Quick wrote:Okay, cool, so you refused to psychoanalyse people based on motivation and are just going to stick to "the facts." Good luck with that.
What the actual fuck? I literally posted what I believe is the motivation for scum vs town and you want to tell me I'm refusing to engage with motivation? Sando 523

Just how much of an idiot are you?
I've read and reread that post.

You make a VERY fatal error in your theory though (and it is a theory): you assume people are "rational." People are NOT rational. People do illogical things all the time and this is actually MORE TRUE for Town than Scum. Scum want to fit in, they don't want to stick out. Also, for your read to be correct here, you have to assume the Scum players in question is reasonably better than average talking themselves out of pressure because it is a high risk play with not much reward for it given all you get is to get someone off the Town block temporarily and that is given it is successful. If a person is going to play like this, they are going to be playing an almost overly analytical game, which would then contradict the nature of sticking out in the first place.

In other words, you are using a tell that only works for a very specific kind of player and playing it off as though this is par for the course when it is not. In my experience as both a player and an observer, if someone is acting in a way that sticks out from the norm, they are more often Town than Scum unless they are the type of player who doesn't really do things "by the book" in which case, it's NAI.

Ofc I am speaking as someone through the experience they have of the game and am not really speaking as someone who is theorizing about what "correct play" is. Theories that require "correct play" lose a lot of the realistic expectation that I can gather from my experience of playing in so many games.

The type of player who would push a widely read as Town player in the attempt to keep them off the Town block is the type of player who is more charismatic by nature rather than analytical because this kind of play requires a lot of finnes of knowing as Scum what you can and cannot get away with.

All that said, what player were we talking about again? I should probably check that so that I can see whether they are more of an analytical vs charismatic player.

https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #676 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 675, Quick wrote:You make a VERY fatal error in your theory though (and it is a theory): you assume people are "rational."
Right, so you're saying it's capitalism and market economies, good theory but relies on everyone being a rational actor.

But it seems like:
Rationally town should not
be going after someone elses TR
Rationally scum may need
to go after some elses TR

Town are sometimes irrational so therefore in any situation where ^bold occurs it's NAI.

This is why I townlist rather than scumlist, town are idiots and do stupid shit that is anti-town and pro-scum. So what I'm saying, the natural and logical reaction to your above being right is...to townhunt, and trying to sabotage others townhunting isn't a particularly good reaction to you being right about people being irrational.

Fuuuuck that was circular from me. Basically I'm happy with what I've said previously, I'm much more often right about townies than scummies, if you don't want to scumread Oxy I don't really care, but saying I'm wrong without addressing the logic will get you tunnelled and ridiculed.

P.S. It's Oxy we're talking about
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Post Post #677 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:15 pm

Post by Oxy »

In post 676, Sando wrote:but saying I'm wrong without addressing the logic will get you tunnelled and ridiculed.
So this was a policy tunneling and ridiculing, then? Or do you actually scum read me?
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Post Post #678 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:18 pm

Post by Oxy »

Actually, you don't have to answer, this post is bleeding town ()
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Post Post #679 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:19 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 677, Oxy wrote:So this was a policy tunneling and ridiculing, then? Or do you actually scum read me?
No I ridiculed Quick, I've explained the logic behind my scumread on you, it's literally what I'm talking with Quick about right now...
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Post Post #680 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:20 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 676, Sando wrote:
In post 675, Quick wrote:You make a VERY fatal error in your theory though (and it is a theory): you assume people are "rational."
Right, so you're saying it's capitalism and market economies, good theory but relies on everyone being a rational actor.

But it seems like:
Rationally town should not
be going after someone elses TR
Rationally scum may need
to go after some elses TR

Town are sometimes irrational so therefore in any situation where ^bold occurs it's NAI.

This is why I townlist rather than scumlist, town are idiots and do stupid shit that is anti-town and pro-scum. So what I'm saying, the natural and logical reaction to your above being right is...to townhunt, and trying to sabotage others townhunting isn't a particularly good reaction to you being right about people being irrational.

Fuuuuck that was circular from me. Basically I'm happy with what I've said previously, I'm much more often right about townies than scummies, if you don't want to scumread Oxy I don't really care, but saying I'm wrong without addressing the logic will get you tunnelled and ridiculed.

P.S. It's Oxy we're talking about
Yeah, sure. But YOU are making the claim that people default to rational behavior. So for your interpretation to be correct, you need to show some solid evidence to back up that people default to being rational.

Oxy strikes me much much more as an analytical player. So that's where I stand on the issue. And you didn't really address what I said except for a blup at the top of your post. I can slice that as avoiding the central topic, but I'd rather see you try and argue how people are more often than not rational rather than irrational. And as
I
explained, the type of player who is more likely to pull something like that needs to know how to manipulate people better than your average joe, so that would be another thing you need to counter in order for your read to be correct.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #681 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:25 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 680, Quick wrote:Yeah, sure. But YOU are making the claim that people default to rational behavior. So for your interpretation to be correct, you need to show some solid evidence to back up that people default to being rational.
What I'm saying is that it's not rational for town to do what Oxy did, I think we agree on that? I'm then/now saying that the rational reaction to what you're saying (
everyone is sometimes irrational
) is to townhunt and not try to mess with others townhunting without specific cause.

Basically I'm saying it takes double-irrationality to do what Oxy did.

Yeah sure, all people are irrational at times, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point between irrationality and scuminess.

Isn't saying he's an analytical player basically saying they're a fairly rational player anyway?
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Post Post #682 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:27 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 680, Quick wrote:And you didn't really address what I said except for a blup at the top of your post.
I'm not addressing the rest of your post since I'm fine with your premise, which I quoted, and the rest is basically you backing up that premise.

But agreeing that people are irrational creatures doesn't change my view:
Yeah sure, all people are irrational at times, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point between irrationality and scuminess.
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Post Post #683 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:27 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 678, Oxy wrote:Actually, you don't have to answer, this post is bleeding town ()
I disagree that you should be giving Townie points for being "logical." Scum can make cases on people too, and in fact, I'd say more often than not Scum default to being rational and Town default to being unsound/chaotic/unknowledgeable/ignorant/doubtful. The reason for this is simple: Town are automatically in a place filled with chaos while Scum are in a place of order.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #684 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:31 pm

Post by Oxy »

In post 683, Quick wrote:
In post 678, Oxy wrote:Actually, you don't have to answer, this post is bleeding town ()
I disagree that you should be giving Townie points for being "logical." Scum can make cases on people too, and in fact, I'd say more often than not Scum default to being rational and Town default to being unsound/chaotic/unknowledgeable/ignorant/doubtful. The reason for this is simple: Town are automatically in a place filled with chaos while Scum are in a place of order.
I translate as the following, and it reads very townie to me:

Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying.

But I maintain that in ideal world, things would be such that I would be right!

And even if you're right, his reaction would be bad in that scenario, too!

And now I'm frustrated that I've come all the way down this rabbit hole and oxy is either bad!scum or bad!town but it's his bad play that got me into this mess

so I'm going to keep voting him regardless

And you could be right about him being terribad!town so I don't want to continue arguing with you about his alignment

But people better step the fuck off with the unsubstantiated insults
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Post Post #685 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:40 pm

Post by Sando »

^Close enough
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Post Post #686 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:42 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 681, Sando wrote:
In post 680, Quick wrote:Yeah, sure. But YOU are making the claim that people default to rational behavior. So for your interpretation to be correct, you need to show some solid evidence to back up that people default to being rational.
What I'm saying is that it's not rational for town to do what Oxy did, I think we agree on that? I'm then/now saying that the rational reaction to what you're saying (
everyone is sometimes irrational
) is to townhunt and not try to mess with others townhunting without specific cause.

Basically I'm saying it takes double-irrationality to do what Oxy did.

Yeah sure, all people are irrational at times, but there's got to be a cutoff at some point between irrationality and scuminess.

Isn't saying he's an analytical player basically saying they're a fairly rational player anyway?
I'm going to put this to bed right now.

Oxy made a reads list explicitly of Town and Null reads. If Oxy is attacking other people's TRs, it is because he wants to forward his own TRs and keeping players TRs he disagrees with from getting on the Town block. In short, Oxy is fighting for HIS reads to be part of the Town block and trying to say "Nah, that person doesn't belong there" when someone pushes for a player to be on the Town block that he disagrees with. Why? Because his PoV is prioritizing TRs over SRs at this point in the game. Because of that, it's actually Pro-Town behavior to defend his TRs and attack other peoples TRs that he doesn't agree with. It's a complete narrative that Oxy has for themself and if you want to say it's Scummy for him to attack people's TRs without context of the game, then you are just talking about the theory of what a rational person would do without that context. We have context on Oxy - he hasn't given any hard SRs yet, but he has given hard TRs. IIRC his vote on duckling is because "this is the Scummiest thing I have seen
yet in the game
. He isn't pushing duckling for being Scum as much as he is saying "this is the scummiest thing I have seen so far" but with context you have to add "but I would rather fight based on TRs at this point in time" I understand this perspective because I know myself to have better TRs than SRs this early in the game. IF Oxy is playing this way, you are going to have to show how it's inconsistent with how he would normally approach the game because as far as I can see, this is just really Pro-Town play on Oxy's part.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #687 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:44 pm

Post by Sando »

Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?
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Post Post #688 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:48 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 687, Sando wrote:Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?
You can make this argument if you want, but it's going to get pretty thick in here if you do.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #689 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:50 pm

Post by Oxy »

It's actually a good case for a playstyle, and yeah, it's my playstyle except I hadn't really thought consciously about fighting off TR's I don't like.

I was really just in a shitty mood, and I felt like he was coming at me, so I told him his read was shit instead of trying to be diplomatic.
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Post Post #690 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:51 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 689, Oxy wrote:It's actually a good case for a playstyle, and yeah, it's my playstyle except I hadn't really thought consciously about fighting off TR's I don't like.

I was really just in a shitty mood, and I felt like he was coming at me, so I told him his read was shit instead of trying to be diplomatic.
Doesn't mean that you weren't doing it unconsciously. And yeah, we can get up to our necks in analytics of behavior if you guys want. I study that shit for fun in my spare time so I'm not against arguing this stuff.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #691 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:52 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 688, Quick wrote:
In post 687, Sando wrote:Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?
You can make this argument if you want, but it's going to get pretty thick in here if you do.
Lol nah I don't really care, that was just a troll, this has gone way too far down the rabbit hole to be useful, and he's stated himself it wasn't a rational conversation. I'm comfortable with where I'm at, he's staying in my lynch list, and I've gotten out of this what I wanted.
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Post Post #692 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:55 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 691, Sando wrote:
In post 688, Quick wrote:
In post 687, Sando wrote:Wait so now him pushing against my TR is, in fact, rational?
You can make this argument if you want, but it's going to get pretty thick in here if you do.
Lol nah I don't really care, that was just a troll, this has gone way too far down the rabbit hole to be useful, and he's stated himself it wasn't a rational conversation. I'm comfortable with where I'm at, he's staying in my lynch list, and I've gotten out of this what I wanted.
How on earth is Oxy the Scummiest person in the game when you have:
  1. duck
  2. NM
  3. Spartan slot
  4. Pin
  5. Korina
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #693 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 400, Sando wrote:Not-lynch - Duckling, quick, Fumu, Sando, Oxy

Would lynch - Pintu, Spartan, Alonzo, Ico, CJ, N_M, Korina

Unsure - mutant
Like...only my Oxy and Alonzo reads have changed, I've been pretty consistent here.

You seem awfully upset that I'm voting Oxy...
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Post Post #694 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:06 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 693, Sando wrote:
In post 400, Sando wrote:Not-lynch - Duckling, quick, Fumu, Sando, Oxy

Would lynch - Pintu, Spartan, Alonzo, Ico, CJ, N_M, Korina

Unsure - mutant
Like...only my Oxy and Alonzo reads have changed, I've been pretty consistent here.

You seem awfully upset that I'm voting Oxy...
I'm not upset at all M8. Just when I destroy someone's reasons for being on a vote they are on and they don't reevaluate it makes me question their motives.

Talk to me about Ico, because I am actually tentatively TRing that slot rn.
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #695 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:06 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 692, Quick wrote:How on earth is Oxy the Scummiest person in the game when you have:
duck
NM
Spartan slot
Pin
Korina
This is also why I think this whole "zomg your TR is shit" thing is so stupid. There's 4 people right there that we agree should live in the lynch list, but you two would rather bang on for 10 pages about how one of my TRs might be wrong.
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Post Post #696 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:10 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 695, Sando wrote:
In post 692, Quick wrote:How on earth is Oxy the Scummiest person in the game when you have:
duck
NM
Spartan slot
Pin
Korina
This is also why I think this whole "zomg your TR is shit" thing is so stupid. There's 4 people right there that we agree should live in the lynch list, but you two would rather bang on for 10 pages about how one of my TRs might be wrong.
yes, I would. Why is that a problem?
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #697 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:12 pm

Post by Sando »

In post 694, Quick wrote:Talk to me about Ico, because I am actually tentatively TRing that slot rn.
Mostly "hasn't earned town status".

But beyond that, on reflection the interaction with mutant was off. At the time it made sense, but as mutant pointed out, there's really no need to vote-pressure him. Anyone properly looking at mutant watched the mutant/sando/duckling interaction and would realise that all you had to be was direct and you'd get an answer to your question. Felt like the vote was an attempt to look like he's doing something and that if he didn't vote he'd be seen as wishy washy and uncommitted.

Felt like a player realising they're not keeping up with the game and seeking to show that they're doing something. Didn't feel like a genuine effort from him.
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Post Post #698 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:14 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 697, Sando wrote:Felt like a player realising they're not keeping up with the game and seeking to show that they're doing something.

I feel like this sort of thing is NAI.
Didn't feel like a genuine effort from him.
Define genuine effort?
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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Post Post #699 (ISO) » Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:14 pm

Post by Quick »

In post 698, Quick wrote:
In post 697, Sando wrote:Felt like a player realising they're not keeping up with the game and seeking to show that they're doing something.

I feel like this sort of thing is NAI.
Didn't feel like a genuine effort from him.
Define genuine effort?
EBWOP
https://youtu.be/LRkYiRnRzY0

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