Just Play the Hits uPick - Video Killed the Radio Star

[Mathdino]

Confirm that I love my flavour <3

[Mathdino]

Standard badly reasoned counterwagon.

VOTE: Espeonage
Sheep!

[Mathdino]

Hey mathdino, I havent asked this yet but are you a mathblade alt?

VOTE: Vaxkiller

Did you not read the first post?

VOTE: Godel

dude's always scum, let's get a real wagon going

i also got my first choice even though i also lowkey wanted my 2nd

i assume napoleon is kesha

[Mathdino]

i lynched godel-scum the one time i played with him

you do in fact always play scummy but i didn't have a read on you at the time

am currently lowkey townreading you

also is no one here a true poptimist

i sent in 3 artists i will stan forever

[Mathdino]

you can trust me

my negative ability literally has 0 positive utility for town and is confirmable by the fact that i won't use it

in fact is there any negative utility in just claiming neg abilities

[Mathdino]

yo venmar, varsoon's case is obviously shit but

1. Please explain both of your votes (if they're "serious" you're accountable for them lol)

2. What's your read on Varsoon?

Edit: Wait people HAVE to use their neg abilities?

[Mathdino]

lol i was sleep deprived when i read that

i understand now

okkkk so i think my negative ability is debilitating to the point of my entire role working significantly better as a scum role

like ability could actually ruin lategame

so bye bye abilities tbh

[Mathdino]

tbh the main reason i'm not townreading venmar yet is i can see a pretty decent scum strategy of "do a thing that 1 or 2 people will obviously find scummy, and then whack them over the head with their stupidity and gain mad towncred for it"

like varsoon's case is obviously bad but that doesn't make venmar town

agree with venmar that varsoon is town

deathnote is probably town too (TALK TO ME BB)

i remember bad vibes on napoleon (and godel obviously)

i guess i'd always be down for an assembler lynch but i'd be surprised if no one had a 1-shot vig that could go there

[Mathdino]

You can? I'm not sure I see that as being viable.

Also I'll totally talk to you! What do you think about this push? Doesn't it feel a bit... aggressive with no real intention of pushing it. Granted, Varsoon's last post makes it more obvious that he doesn't intend to push it very hard.

I appreciate what you (Varsoon) are trying to do but I think it became very apparent you don't actually care if people vote Venmar with you and that's a problem. So much so that I questioned the townread I had on you.

Venmar, I hope to God you are getting good "reactions" because you need to start coming up with your own cases. Aren't you still voting CD?

i mean it's the kind of thing experienced scum does that just works
just ends up making their entire page 1-5 play NAI tbh

anyway
varsoon-scum correct play is to back off around now considering no one seems to think his push is good
like, if he's doing it to actually get venmar lynched, he's doing a terrible job of it
and if he's doing it to get townreads, saying "okay let's lynch venmar right now" is the worst way to do it (plus people don't actually townread setup spec from scummy players and he knows this)
i'm not calling him too scummy to be scum, but he's doing practically nothing right now to help scum wincon

so yeah i'm townreading varsoon

i am also interested in venmar's reads on the active players

was the varsoon/venmar push the main thing you wanted to talk about

also what's your read on espeonage

[Mathdino]

HOT TAKE: The wallposts ARE the garbage (except mollie's, which is post restricted). Varsoon/Venmar's posts these past 3 pages have added nothing to the game for me.

Hard townreading mollie. Goodpost. That said, I don't think Varsoon lying about his scumgame is AI; everyone likes to downplay their scumgame as either alignment. I, for example, suck at scum.

Gamma saying "THIS COULD BE SCUM YO" at all 3 of the most active players is annoying af. Seems like it's more indicative of his emotional state (suspicious) than actual reads, lol.
Gamma why u still voting UT boyo?
Godel's Vax vote was just bad, that's mainly it.

@DeathNote: My understanding is that the roles were created and then the alignments were randomised. Like, my neg ability is so potentially ruinous for town (at least IMO) that I think the benefit scum get out of just using it and claiming their neg ability is something else, far FAR outweighs the potential towncred I could get for getting up on stage and saying HEY GUYS I'M NOT USING MY NEGATIVE ABILITY LOOK AT HOW TOWN I AM. Which I accept is pretty much what I did there.

For the people still not voting and RVS voting, can we get a wagon on Godel going? Shit Vax vote, obviously Vax not knowing if I was a Mathblade alt is not alignment indicative.

[Mathdino]

FLAMING TAKE: any posts with a full paragraph are garbage

Godel is always not-that-active due to time zones and RL and shit. pls no discrediting my wagon with bad logic thx

You don't think that post is genuinely scummy?

[Mathdino]

Okay to be clear I'm not calling wallposting garbage, I'm specifically calling the Varsoon vs Venmar argument garbage. Like I can't even point to it and go "THAT'S TvT LET'S DO SOMETHING ELSE", it's just garbage that doesn't help me read either of them.

People being careful about their posts is definitely a weird phenomenon in geriatric games. I started out giving a shit in Aeronaut's game but then I realised 10 posts per day is a lot anyway and it's often hard to reach that without multiposting. Tbh geriatric ruleset mainly serves to stop my multiposting (and makes me want to use posts to respond to more than one person).

If there's scum mucking up my awesome Godel wagon, it's probably Gamma.

@hebichan:

How were you originally reading Godel's post?

[Mathdino]

@Vax: I did answer your question, in the post right after you asked it.

@DeathNote: There are a couple people who haven't posted, yeah, but all people we can reasonably expect to never post. coughassemblercough

@CoolDog: You know "HOT TAKE" is a meme right? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool wallposter, lol. I particularly think Venmar/Varsoon's wall vs wall is garbage, but walls are in general fine and I'm good reading them.
I feel like you should be able to understand sarcasm?
Also your setup spec on me is, if anything, more anti-town than what I did. I literally mean "You can trust me" because I'm town. Full stop, nothing more.

can someone tell me if cooldog is always like this

like that could've been a fair reason to vote me ("oh ho ho mathdino is rolefishing for neg abilities") but that's 3 levels of bad

[Mathdino]

i would much rather you and venmar talk about things that are not each other
telling each other what your read on the other is in a convoluted "what would scum do" discussion doesn't help as much

i've made calls on everyone who's substantially posted EXCEPT you and venmar (and cooldog), but your view of the game is centred around you and venmar, so w/e

and it does in fact matter whether cooldog is standardly incapable of understanding sarcasm; i almost got lynched when i was a newbie for being like that

regardless

town: DeathNote, hebichan, mollie, UT (doesn't feel like scumsheep), Vax
nulltown: Varsoon, SKrew
meh: Gamma, Assembler, Venmar, Cooldog
probscum: Godel

[Mathdino]

your vote was bad and that was mainly it (gg page 2 scumhunting)

was that a serious vote you were making on vaxkiller

i await your return

[Mathdino]

Incidentally, I actually agree with you on scum being on the wagon (and also think there's scum on this wagon regardless of Godel's alignment).

Re: Godel's vote: Vax not having read the first post is super obviously NAI; scum have no more reason to know who reviewed this game than town do. So it seems like Godel was just jumping on someone being bad (in fact, I think Vax not knowing who I am makes him slightly more likely to be town). The fact that Godel kept his vote makes me think it's serious, which isn't great.

Re: My vote: I maintain that Godel's vote being bad was a great reason for a page 2 wagon.

Re: The wagon:
- You forgot Gamma
- I agree hebi's follow-up is gut-weird. Not sure if it's scum indicative though.
- UT and Vax are probtown tbh
All that said, wagons generate content, yadda yadda.

Waiting on Godel's catch-up and analysis right now.

On setup spec, I'm pretty sure that idea is disproven by the setup design portion of the sign-up thread.

[Mathdino]

If you thought that the specific wall vs wall is garbage why make the sentiment general. Also, it becomes clear from this admission that you were not actually being fully sarcastic, you actually meant that the longer posts were bad. Thus, the criticism still stands and sarcasm/irony are not a valid defense. Also, I could just as easily assert that your wall posts are bad for the same reasons you gave for the venmar/varsoon discussion (wall vs. wall posting hurts town), and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. So I'm not sure how this really address my point, which is that encouraging the town to make less substantive posts is something that scum would want to do, and that you have done.

On the role fish point: a misrep and missing the point. If you read my post you will notice that I never mentioned rolefishing for either positive or negative abilities, rather fishing for varsoon's trust in general. It could be or it could not be the case that the "trust" of varsoon is positive in town hands or it is only negative in the hands of scum. However, either way (or in both ways) it would behoove scum to try to get this "trust" for certainly it would hurt the town to do so. As I mentioned before, it would be silly for any town person to angle for trust in such a way, especially on D1 for either it exposes them as a potential scum target for an nk at worst, and is wifom at best. So simply defering the conversation to a mischaracterization of "fishing for negs" does not actually address the point that I have made. Nor does simply assert that you are town as a good justification alleviate the criticism, for then it would seem to be implied that all town people ought to angle for varsoon's trust, which obviously is not a tenable strat (for scum would then be forced to do the same).

1. Because up until that point basically all the wallposts were by V/V, and multiple people had commented that the conversation had become ridiculous (which I happened to agree with). I was fully aware that I was also a wallposter when I made those posts.

Like, I would understand you giving me shit for this if this were in the GD/SE and I was going around saying "HOT TAKE: the wallposts in this thread are garbage". I can vividly see the thread derailing into this kind of discussion, with me going "bro it was sarcastic/ironic" and y'all going "okay but you clearly meant specific wallposts, wtf you hypocrite", and it'd be this great egomatch that gets buried in hundreds of GD pages.

But this conversation is way out of place in a mafia game; it seems like you're harping on me basically for shitting on people's posting while actively trying to have other conversations. I guess what I'm asking is:

How is me doing that at all alignment indicative?

2. Okay so it sounds like you're overexplaining a basic point of "mafia wants to gain town's trust". The rest doesn't seem to add much more than that.

Whether or not it's silly to angle for Varsoon's trust, I mainly just wanted to see what would happen. I'm not justifying it with "I'm town", I was saying that "You can trust me" is literally just a townclaim.

And why should I be afraid of the NK?

[Mathdino]

i disagree, please elaborate

mathdino's dismissal of the posting between Varsoon and I as "garbage" feels incredibly disingenuous and unnecessarily dismissive, almost as if he wants everyone just to gloss over it. regardless of what you think of the points made by varsoon or i, or what you think of wallposting, to call it "garbage" is a force since i think most people should have a decent read on both varsoon and i by now. bonus points for cooldog who mirror telled me on some of this.

@CoolDog: You know "HOT TAKE" is a meme right? I'm a dyed-in-the-wool wallposter, lol. I particularly think Venmar/Varsoon's wall vs wall is garbage, but walls are in general fine and I'm good reading them.
I feel like you should be able to understand sarcasm?
Also your setup spec on me is, if anything, more anti-town than what I did. I literally mean "You can trust me" because I'm town. Full stop, nothing more.

don't like this line of response to cooldog, it reads a lot like math just dismissing the criticism rather than addressing it. more accurately, the last sentence reads a lot like as math deflecting the criticism, as if effectively saying

"i know that what i did was scummy/anti-town, but what

you

did was

more

so!"

also really don't like the godel wagon atm

1. Glad to know I'm burning bridges. I, for one, glossed over it, when I realised that basically all of it was just rhetoric that could be easily faked by scum and speaks more about your and Varsoon's mafia philosophies than your actual alignments. If you want, I can just start spitballing reads at you guys, but the reality is that conversation you had added nothing to my ability to read you. My reads on you two are much more centred around everything outside of that wall to wall convo.

I think you're pretty locked into your own POV in the game, because you feel like you gained a lot from having that conversation (cuz you were part of it), and you feel like the more words you spew the more readable you should be. That's just not the case for me. And it looks/looked like a few others also gained very little from that debate.

If you want to get into the theory side of things, I personally don't much like 1v1s and I also don't like reading people's self-defence because I feel like it's mostly NAI; scum will say whatever it takes to get townread after hearing what they're getting scumread for. Feel free to call me a hypocrite on that lol.

2. How should I be addressing it? Saying "you can trust me" is not rolefishing. My interpretation was "hey Math could be a role that would benefit from Varsoon's trust" WAS rolefishing. It looks like that was a misinterpretation.

When it comes to meming at walls being garbage, I'd really rather not get into layers of irony bullshit to explain me making a half-sarcastic joke.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler:

I'd actually be happy with a long day 1, day 2 is likely to be a clusterfuck with everyone having negative utility.

Can I flirt for a townread mollie?

yes

@Pirate Mollie:

You avoiided answering me. I wanna know if I can trust you in this game.

I didn't ignore your question varsoona! I just didn't realize it was a srs question.

the answer is yes!

(its good to see you too, it has been way too long)

you can trust me

my negative ability literally has 0 positive utility for town and is confirmable by the fact that i won't use it

in fact is there any negative utility in just claiming neg abilities

I toyed around with this in my head, mostly cos I claim at the drop of a hat but reck isn't dumb, there has to be some counterbalance to a massclaim. I just played an offsite game where scum got an extra faction nk on whoever claimed. I don't think reck wld go

that

far but

Actually, Espeonage brings up a really good point--maybe we shouldn't all bust our negative utility powers on D1/N1.
I imagine that the setup is probably designed such that we could get really punished for doing so.


I also imagine the scumteam has some capacity to keep our negative utility abilities from popping off and letting us all go into having positive utility abilities/passives.
So I'm kind of against claiming if only because if I designed this setup, scum would definitely have a factional ability to revert up to two players a night back to their 'need to use the negative ability' state.

mindmeld

Actually, Espeonage brings up a really good point--maybe we shouldn't all bust our negative utility powers on D1/N1.
I imagine that the setup is probably designed such that we could get really punished for doing so.


I also imagine the scumteam has some capacity to keep our negative utility abilities from popping off and letting us all go into having positive utility abilities/passives.
So I'm kind of against claiming if only because if I designed this setup, scum would definitely have a factional ability to revert up to two players a night back to their 'need to use the negative ability' state.

I bet you have read every word

I just hit submit again when it came up with profit screen without reading lol.

is your post restriction that you have to burn up all of your posts on d1

my post restriction is that I have to write WoT that no1 will read so that I will be listened to even less than I normally am.

except for gamma. friend gamma will listen to me. I think.

@Mathdino: I think my scumplay is mostly to flounder around and hope I make it to endgame, more realistically. That and BIG GAMBITS.

this isn't what your scum play is tho. you don't "flounder" around and hope you make it to endgame or did you forget that link that you sent to me oh so long ago where you totally schmoozed a person who neighbourized you. I wld describe your play as calculated and methodical, and you LOVE gambits as either alignment so I am wondering why you are only assigning it to 1.

I don't think I have played on this site in about a year, so yeah I know my meta on players is outdated. but some things I just don't see changing. for instance I think you tend to steer more as scum cos you feel more confident when you have a lot of insight into the mechanics of a game; you know your set up specs and what can actually be within in a game vs. what info you want to try to obtain to fill the holes that you don't know about.

does this make sense?

you asking "who can I trust" is pretty weird considering you cld figure out the question w/o even asking the question.

tell me I am wrong. cos this makes me go hhhhmmm and I think the townreads on you are premature. so we will see.

also i just want to say that the whole back and fourth between varsoona and venny about levels of scumtitude to be really freaking weird is this a new thing or what

still catching up

if any1 wants their brain to disintegrate, posts 90 and 91 will reaffirm your belief in entropy (re: levels of scumtitude) however it also seems like varsoona is trying to sort venny out mebbe? dunno, wanna see where this goes.

rip me if I have to write walls for this entire game.

I feel like math's confusion about how/when he cld use his abilities (not understanding the negative part of his abilities) kinda rings true cos I never thought to ask if it was compulsory but it sure is if I wanna get to the good stuff, and I assume we all have some and I didn't think of this until I typed this out but the roles are probably equalizing so that the game is based on play rather than roles with how we utilize the roles themselves.

deathy looks and feels like town to me. its about the only solid read I have.

venny is defensive but venny gets defensive when pushed and I get that about him (from what I remember). it is hard playing on the defensive.

yo assembler

VOTE: assembler

wassup

Re: my pirate mollie townread: It seems like a lot of this post is difficult to fake by scum.

Additional info on Varsoon was good to know.

I don't think mollie would lie about also not realising that we had to use the negative abilities in order to use the positives, and it seems like scum with daytalk should know that just from pre-game.

Thoughts on Venmar/Varsoon don't seem to contain scum-motivation. General confusion reads town. I generally disagree with the idea that fencesitting and not taking a stance is a scummy thing to do.

And setup spec reads like it's coming from a town perspective. My assumption right now is this is just 12:3 with scum roles completely unchanged from their original town roles, and scum's only additional ability is the factional NK (I'm assuming that because my negative ability is 100% a scum ability). So I don't think a mollie who knows that would come in and think "hmmm maybe this is like that game where scum could NK anyone who claimed". I think scum would be confbiased by their setup knowledge.

[Mathdino]

tbh i would prefer to use this vote to do something more interesting

but i would also prefer to not let godel outlurk his wagon

this is why lurker wagons suck for gamestate :/

[Mathdino]

i don't scumread godel nearly enough to start doing wagonomics yet; your vote makes sense independently

my read on him is currently "annoyed that he hasn't shown up yet despite clearly having the time to do so"

my read on you was gut + doesn't seem like you'd go and tell everyone 3 or 4 times that you haven't started playing and are wasting your posts

or at least, if you did, i think you'd be all like "whelp i got no reactions whoooops"

instead it was just genuine lack of participation which really only hurts you if you're scum in a 12p town

do you have any townreads

[Mathdino]

Don't care. Give reads.

[Mathdino]

If the game is still as lurky by tonight, I say we start powerlynching lurkers

A wise man once told me:

Thou shalt not lynch that which thou canst replace.

But yeah this is getting pretty ridiculous. My personal game is basically waiting for content from Godel -_-

[Mathdino]

Math why are you playing like shit?

Idk if I should scumread you for being scummy or townread you because you recently played heaps better than this as scum. Head, out of arse, in to a higher gear, and lets not be stupid and derail-y.

Disclaimer: While the godel wagon is/was shit, I see the frustrated townies being cool to jump on it so I will not attempt to read in to alignments based on that wagon's formation like deathnote.

What would you rather I do?

I wanted an early wagon to
A. Put pressure on the player being wagoned to explain their vote
B. Put pressure on the player being wagoned to actually do something so I can sort them
C. See who jumps on the wagon and get reads on these jumps
D. See how people react to the existence of the wagon

So far, I've gotten interesting material from who else jumped on it, and a whole lot of people calling the wagon shit without explaining why (this, for the record, is NAI but annoying).

But as a rule I will NEVER go ahead and unvote someone that I'm specifically trying to pressure, unless there's someone else I'm scumreading way harder.

Like I can see how it looks like I'm playing like shit because I haven't actually done much of anything outside of throwing reads and pushing this wagon, but this game being held up by lurkers is not going to help me get into the groove.

And I'll go ahead and tell you I'm better as town than as scum; don't go down that route of "Math is too stupid right now to be scum". But my early reads are generally no better than random; the strategy early game is to throw shit at the wall and see what sticks.

[Mathdino]

I feel like I should weigh in on this because you're all technically chainsaw defending me, but I don't have a read on Espeonage yet, and want more interaction with him before I lock that in.

Interested to hear more thoughts on that front from Gamma/SKrew.

Gamma in particular, because you mentioned said earlier you were ready to go after me once you were done with the Godelwagon. Has anything changed?

[Mathdino]

i'm not voting espeonage if that's what you're asking

pls explain your vote thanks

[Mathdino]

Mathdino can you explain why you have to interact with someone to vote them?

I'm also bothered by the vernacular "lock that in" as if its a given you will vote but you are waiting, maybe I'm over thinking that tho.

Because that would also require unvoting Godelslot, who I'm still waiting for content from after all this time. If I unvoted people I have no content from just because I got distracted by a shiny new wagon (that I'm not actually scumreading), the early pushes I do would have no meaning.

"Lock that in" means "lock that read in". As in, I could go either way. Not that I'm necessarily going to support that wagon.

You have to have known your Godel wagon was effectively an RVS wagon. There was no substance to it, and yet you treated it as something profound which is wasn't.

I'm definitely open to a discussion to get our minds in sync though, because you asre completely correct in there being almost no substance in this game thus far.

I'm not going to get in to a meta thing here either. We're barely out of rvs because nothing of note has actually happened here.

Yes, I'm aware of that actually, and I thought Godel would've come back around like page 5 or 6 to talk about the wagon composition and make it worth it.

If you wanna quote posts where it looked like I thought it was some profound thing, go ahead. Early pushes don't usually last this long. Inactivity has kinda killed my momentum.

What are you interested in talking about?

[Mathdino]

Re: Assembler: We just all went over how setup spec in lieu of real content this late is unhelpful. Does Assembler get a pass because we expect less of him as a player? The fact remains that by saying "HEY I THINK I FOUND SOMETHING BUT I CANT TALK ABOUT IT" provides nothing to the game.
Like, I'm not suggesting he's scum for it; he keeps getting mislynched for this shit over and over. But suggesting we're being unfair is... unfair.

Re: Var vs Ven: That's literally the exact point I was trying to get across by calling it all garbage.

Re: Godel replacement: I'd still feel like shit about unvoting a slot that I found vaguely scummy just because things are stalling. Gonna wait until content from Kublai and then reevaluate.

Alternatively, if you have any other compelling wagon ideas, I'm listening. I just don't see anything good enough right now.

[Mathdino]

meta gives me a rash in case it's scummy

yo SKrew hit me up with a nice tasty read on espeonage

[Mathdino]

Interested to hear more thoughts on that front from Gamma/SKrew.

i'm not voting espeonage if that's what you're asking

pls explain your vote thanks

[Mathdino]

ok whatever

do you think this game will go at a faster pace if i use the remainder of my 10 posts 10 mins before the deadline :O :O :O

you said earlier that only like 2 things stood out to you

were you unable to get a read on mollie, DN, cooldog, etc on your catchup

[Mathdino]

is there anything else good we can talk about in the remaining 3 minutes

how about gamma/hebichan

i could jive with the idea that if godel is town, one of gamma/hebi is scum

problem is i can't really tell which one

[Mathdino]

FIRST
post of the day

tbh i was townreading both gamma and hebi apart from their godel votes

but the way they both followed the wagon pinged me in succession

i guess that's also weird if godel is scum, but if godel is scum it just seems probabilistically less likely for scum to 100% be on that wagon with 15p

regardless, like i agree most of my reads are useless right now but i can't really flesh them out privately, isn't my style

[Mathdino]

I just today noticed that Venmar actually wanted me to respond to shit lol.

no emotion. i think his dismissal of my posts with varsoon is similar to the dismissing that you're criticizing espeonage for, but worse. math actively discredited a lengthy interaction between two players as garbage. i think it's a very alignment indicative mentality; i think the town pov would've been to either get a read out of the interaction or acknowledge the posting between varsoon and i and get different content out of us, whereas i genuinely think the scum pov is to just actively gloss over it all and tell everyone it's garbage.

i will also point out that i built on the case when i refuted math's points in #169, which math has still yet to respond to, btw.

How hard do you think it is to make up a read on walls of content?
I call on anyone who's played with me and knows how tryhard I can be -- how hard would it be for scum-me to come up with a read on Varsoon vs Venmar?

Nothing in 169 seemed to indicate you wanted a response. You suspected me, I shot back, you rebutted my rebuttal, great, washing my hands, going home.

Like, after just complaining about long drawn out 1v1 wallposting, I'm not gonna get into one with you when I'm specifically waiting on content from other specific people.

will also point out that despite mathdino needing more interaction to get a read on espeonage, he was happy to slap a townread on sleepykrew, who he never interacted with.

I can read different players for different things. You're trying to call me out on some kind of inconsistency when they're two different people.

Some of SKrew's early posts gutpinged me as town. Espeonage on the other hand, who I've played with, is a pretty intricate player, and I find his style of aggressive effortposting extremely difficult to lock a read on early on. I see people like Thor and Raybells similarly.

How does it benefit scum-me to townbin a lurking SKrew for no apparent reason while fencesitting on Espeonage?

[Mathdino]

Most defences are useless anyway IMO.

Still waiting on Kubali's content. Here if anyone wants to talk about something else tho.

[Mathdino]

I mean I don't have anywhere near enough information from half the playerlist to do this.

Like I really really don't wanna be default lynched; the last time I was D1 mislynched was in Thesp's game with a similarly oldie playerlist (so thanks guys, I even see some of the exact same names).

But I also don't have much better options outside of pleading that I'm a much better player on future days when I have something to work with, and deflecting onto players who have basically done nothing the entire day:
Assembler
Napoleon
UT (townreading this tho)
SKrew (granted his lack of participation is probably intentional)

I'm willing to pressure wagon Gamma or hebi, as I didn't like those sheepvotes.

My wagoning Godel was not an expression of LET'S LYNCH THIS GUY RIGHT AWAY, it was to see who would jump on, how they would jump on, and how Godel would respond to his wagon. The week that it took to get what should've been a relatively quick feedback loop tilted my entire game. I was waiting to say this because you don't go around broadcasting that you're just pressuring and not actually strongly scumreading the person you're pressure wagoning, but I also as a matter of principle don't unvote off a pressure wagon without the player actually responding. Defeats the utility.

In the interest of not getting fucked today:
VOTE: Napoleon

I'll do some ISOs and see if I can find any options that aren't incredibly underwhelming.

[Mathdino]

And because this game has such a massive feedback loop, I'm going to go ahead and preempt the "Mathdino is giving excuses" thing.

Yeah, those are all excuses. But I don't rewrite history, regardless of my alignment. I walked into this game with a basic playbook of "wagon some guy and see what you can get out of it" and it took until literally KK's reads list for me to get what I expected the next day. I didn't adapt, and that's on me (although the excuse still exists).

Reread my game through the lens of that frustration and see if your read changes. It shouldn't townclear me by any means, cuz I use that exact same playbook as both alignments, but I've never run into this kind of situation before.

[Mathdino]

Thesp's game, turns out it was just UT and Reck who were in there, but I remember feeling pretty similarly this game as there. Out of my depth, relatively unable to read almost all the players here, feels like this crew kinda knows each other but I don't know any of them which puts me at a disadvantage. I play much better when I can dominate.
You could make the argument that I also felt that way in RC's Anything uPick (my last scumgame), although that playerlist was a very different subset of MS that mostly knew each other but not me.

Fish out of water syndrome is icky. I can tell you that I'm apparently fairly easily sortable by motivation after flips, but people who try to toneread me usually end up dead wrong. Especially in a game mode like this that emphasises slower play (my last geriatric game was with fairly active players tbh).

[Mathdino]

Multipost because I'm at the point of scrambling to not get lynched.

A lot of people have given me flak for playing lazy/below my potential, for casual dismissal of large swaths of posting, or for apparent inconsistencies in slapping reads on things while ignoring others.

I can tell you honestly that if you were scumreading anyone else for play like that, I'd call that some lazy-ass shit. Consistency is damn easy to fake as scum, by anyone. It would not have been hard for me to make up reads on Varsoon and Venmar from their 1v1 wallposting. I can literally make up reads on those on request to demonstrate (although I don't know why you would want that outside of me proving I have that capability).

I know my own limits, and the fact is without a certain amount of information, I believe most of this playerlist is really mainly readable by being really good at gutreading (improved by personal meta, which is utterly fucked because a lot haven't even been playing recently). A shitton of things done so far are things I fundamentally believe are NAI, and I would feel incredibly icky to go against my mafia philosophy to develop reads based on those.
Disagree with me if you want, but see where I'm coming from.

Some tells work for me, that I can actually feel comfortable with. The way that SKrew has been approaching this game gutreads town to me. I can feel comfortable reading stream-of-consciousnessy players much better than I'm comfortable with players who are very obviously putting tons of thought into their essays, and who I wouldn't be surprised if they drafted/redrafted their posts as both alignments. Call those mastina types.
Tbh I can read players that I can identify with. Short supply.

So my goal/motivation this whole game was to slap some early reads, start an early wagon on someone I know, see what comes of it, and then play with the resultant wagons with the players I feel like I can read (Godel is one of them).

While waiting for that, I didn't really see much else I could do. My reads haven't evolved really that much at all, and all the people who went after me are precisely that squadron of players I don't feel comfortable reading, because everything goes back to WELL THIS IS REALLY FAKABLE BY SCUM.

This post doesn't have a clearly defined ending.

Will ISO people and "THINK DEEPERRRRR" but I really don't expect that much of myself here, which I sorta feel like shit for, but also feel like you guys should've known better than to let this game stall out while I get compromise lynched here anyway.

[Mathdino]

I understand why you feel that way (I've seen reads like that before), but then you're basically implying that I lied about having pre-planned this out, which is just not something I do. I can accept "Oh Mathdino is just playing by a playbook, must be scum planning the day out", because like, fine, I do that as both alignments. But if your argument is that I tried to cop out of doing something bad by saying WHOOPS JUST A REACTION TEST GUYS, that's just not my thing.

I wouldn't call it a trust tell, because it says nothing about my alignment (I'm pretty careful about maintaining that), but I think it's fair to say that I would never rewrite history as scum, and call bad play a reaction test.

Early wagons are pretty much how I get into the game if I can't immediately read a ton of players, and I have a long track record of doing this. Shitty/slow starts like this are also why I tend to do better replacing in. If you're looking through it under the lens of "Mathdino is supposed to play better than this", then yeah, you're gonna keep tunneling me, but like I said, read my explanation and my plan for how I thought today was gonna go, then read my ISO through that lens. It should make a lot of my behaviour make a lot more sense, and all of that was stuff I was going to say around when Espeonage went after me, but Godel hadn't responded yet (and you can see me alluding to the fact that it was basically solely a early pressure/test wagon).

But yeah I'll write one up. Be aware that it could potentially involve subconscious reads-forcing. I'll point out which players I'm more confident on and I'll do another VCA thing before the hammer if it comes to that.

[Mathdino]

Assembler

: Should've been prodded already. I've seen town-Assembler make some of the most godawful sheep votes in history. The best I can say here not having seen his scum meta is that I'm guessing this is town just because he wouldn't make 192, and 154 isn't a completely brain dead thought.
Townlean.

Cooldog

: I've been scumreading this slot since going after me, but I always have crazy-ass reads when it comes to people who strongly read me one way or the other, so I asked other people weigh in on this.
Which they didn't (and you guys wonder why I haven't been able to do anything).
56 is just talk talk, nothing substantial. 96 is exactly the same. A lot of words that look nuanced but don't affect the gamestate at all.
Initial vote on me was literally for the stated reasons of "rolefishing Varsoon" (which I did not do), "reducing town information" by complaining about Venmar/Varsoon clogging up the thread, which is shit tier white knighting, and my "hypocracy of "no post over a paragraph"", which was a shitpost that he's continued to push me over.
I'm confident arguing that he basically hasn't done anything since this initial push, as by 165 he basically made his votepark clear basically due to no progress being made in the game (yes, lynch me over the half of the playerlist that isn't doing shit).
So yeah feeling scum here, but this read really only works FMPOV.

DeathNote

: 65 reads to me as something that scum don't say -- obviously setuppy type of thing, unnecessary for any kind of scum agenda. Comments seem gamesolvy, nuanced, voting record is okay, etc etc. Could never bring myself to lynch a slot that's this pro-town in contribution, and honestly he's prob just gonna get sorted by the NK.
Town.

Espeonage

: Absolutely nothing before his V/LA is AI imo. WKs Assembler, which I initially figured was bad, but then I realised that Assembler is basically the last person you want to white knight/pocket, given that he has 0 influence over the game. Would be a bad scum move, and the general complaints about the gamestate (which ultimately unfortunately led to voting me) ring true and genuine.
Town.

Gamma

: I don't feel qualified to get an accurate read here (never played with scum-Gamma). Nothing early on seems to townclear him. Really glad that no one has provided a read on Gamma that I can factcheck /s
109 feels wrong. Useless self-meta line, a token Godel vote justification, and a super LAMISTy "LET'S LET EVERYONE DO WHAT THEY WANT, WHO CAN RELATE?" in response to my sarcasm.
Okay but then 153 really doesn't seem like something scum would make.

@Gamma:

Please elaborate on your read progression on me with regards to rolefishing.
A few seemingly random trajectories through the game seems pretty town to me; I can't really come up with political reasons to justify his switches. Espeonage wagon was bad but believable, and Napoleon is a fine vote.
Null if only because I'm being pulled in a few ways on this. I would trust players who've played with Gamma here.

Godel/KK

: Godel's ISO is ridiculous, and I've seen him lurk out of a scumgame while I was pushing him.
Kublai Khan's 296 lynchpool is REALLY bad (oh okay your scumpool is 2 lurkers and the guy who spearheaded your wagon got it)
but the discussion on SKrew, in particular the insight in 307 is more than enough for me to table this as a lynch prospect today and probably tomorrow.
Town with a bad catchup.

hebichan

: Entrance was strong but that's 1/8 of the ISO that comes off town. Looks like posturing, overjustification, AtE in 279 (which actually misinterpreted what I meant by "discrediting my Godel wagon"), and speaking from experience with Gamma, Gamma is a really easy D1 scumpush to make. Defence of me feels alignment-informed.
Scum. Also basically only works FMPOV.

Napoleon

: I strongly gutread this entrance as scum and then I realised it was Aristophanes . Wouldn't mind if he died at this point, given that he apparently has the time to catch up in full on GD threads but no time to read a damn geriatric. No indication he's town.
Null, lynchable.

pirate mollie

: I discussed this already, people just disagreed with it. I think a lot of things said in 95 are not things scum would say. Basically everything else seems NAI, including the votepark on a lurker, which ruined my game the same way it seems to have ruined hers. Fuck lurkers.
Townlean, I have stronger reasons to townread others at this point.

Sir Eltuntrod Tripod

: Seems to be the only person here who was able to articulate the value in the Godel wagon. Seems town-motivated, nowhere near LAMISTy enough to seem intentional. 174 is pretty much #goodposting. Activity drops off, seemingly because Godel never came back?
Townlean.

SKrew

: Slightly annoying flippant behaviour reads town. I largely echo Kublai Khan's thoughts on this slot.
Town for now. don't pool him with the lurkers.

ogod i'm getting to the V's

Varsoon

: Right so 55 was, as previously mentioned, utterly shit and 75% moon logic, which I usually townread, but then he turns it into this massive 1v1 with Venmar that sizzles out and leads to a switch on me. I said earlier that scum-Varsoon correct play would've been to drop the Venmar thing when it was politically advantageous, and his switch onto me felt political if I've ever seen it. Nothing in this ISO seems like it couldn't be fakable by scum.
If there's one post that sticks out to me as a potential towntell, it's 211, where he assumes that just reading my ISO is enough to make a scumread of me obvious, which implies that he genuinely believes this.
So null? I've read games by him and have a shit record of predicting his flip so you guys can sort this shit out. His play has been pretty bad but I guess that's lowkey expected of him.

Vaxkiller

: Townreading 115 for the same reason I'm townreading DN early game. Feels too unnecessarily setuppy; scum doesn't broadcast here HEY I'M USING MY NEG ABILITY. Don't think scum-Vax just drops lines of interrogation due to a fake townread either. Why do that when you can look busy by pretending to push people to generate content?
A lot of the rest just reads like crazy-ass town. Kinda reminds me of Quick's playstyle. But also feels like the kinda player where a lot of these posts would be outside his scumrange.
Town.

Venmar

: I'm not reading the walls again. Shitting on me for shitting on him reads as more emotional than opportunistic/political. Ignoring response to my response, pretty clearly NAI. I'm trying to force myself to not care about his consistent shading of me based around what seems like bad mafia theory. A lot of things people think are scumtells are not scumtells (and half of them are actually towntells), but a lot of older MSers are too rooted into their playstyles/philosophies to change that. Which I guess is a pretty good explanation for why I get scumread by older players more often than newer players.
ANYWAY
Look if I'm gonna ignore the defence against Varsoon (fuck defences) and the push against me (I'm hella biased), there's nothing in here scum couldn't fake (no real towntells other than apparent emotional vote), but nothing particularly scummy either. You could argue that the way that he shades players from afar (Espeonage in 229, Ari in 305) is some opportunistic shit to add fuel to the various fires. I would have to know that he doesn't consistently do this as town in order to scumread this.

Calling on people who know Venmar, someone talk to me about this behaviour.

I would be pretty uncomfortable if he survived to LyLo, seems like he'd be in a super strong position if scum.
Null???

xRECKONERx

: It bothers me that he always appears at the end of alphabetical user lists due to that 'x' in his name, despite the fact that I in no way associate him with those 'x's nor do I pronounce them when I say his username.

Here's a list (orders within categories are meaningless):

Town:
DeathNote
Espeonage
Kublai
Vax

Probtown:
Assembler
mollie
UT
SKrew

Null/needs sorting:
Gamma (need meta)
Napoleon (no activity)
Varsoon (can't read this shit, no burden to be good as town so)
Venmar (uncomfortable playstyle, scum if his behaviours are not central to said style)

Scumlean:
Cooldog

Probscum:
hebichan

Would obviously be willing to vote anyone null and below, along with probably Assembler (granted if it literally gets to the deadline, all bets are off, so please disband the Espeonage wagon so I don't have to counterwagon a townread thank youuu).

[Mathdino]

Mathdino(4) ~ CooLDoG(10), Venmar(26), Varsoon(25), Espeonage(21)
Espeonage(4) ~ Vaxkiller(23), Gamma Emerald(30), SleepyKrew(29), Assemblerotws(4)
Kublai Khan(2) ~ Mathdino(35), Sir Elton Hercules John(8)
Vaxkiller(1) ~ Kublai Khan(6)
hebichan(1) ~ DeathNote(25)
Gamma Emerald(1) ~ hebichan(8)
CooLDoG(1) ~ Napoleon III(8)
Assemblerotws(1) ~ pirate mollie(14)

oh fuck me

my counterwagon options are literally
1. a townread
2. a weaker townread
3. my top scumread who's been defending me, wow that's a fun counterwagon
4. literally just any lurker

look if people on my wagon are willing to switch to hebichan then i'm down but given this massive inactivity i feel like all we're gonna agree on is a non-polarising lurker that doesn't really read strongly either way
i propose napoleon obviously
although hebichan does classify as a viable lurker

i would REALLY REALLY hope that you guys are good enough to not make the 2 default lynch options of the day be 2 players who are active, open, and contribute to the town

whoever said i wasn't scumhunting is ridiculous, i've clearly been townhunting as best i can but way too many people are null and no one ever answers my "poll the audience" questions or engages me outside of "wow yeah that's scumposting, math's pushes are shit" so idk what y'all fkin expected

we are not lynching espeonage or me, we're lynching a lurker and recovering with the new information from tomorrow

[Mathdino]

I'm a towntell reliant player.

Scum-Assembler in the situation where he wakes up and decides "hey I think the post I make is going to be one about how cool and pro-town I'm being reducing the effect of my negative ability!"
He doesn't go into the thread, say "Hey I found something" and just fucking leave without placing a vote. He's not a total idiot, and I'm making the assumption that he at least uses his one liner once-per-2-days posts to try to survive as scum.
Scum-Assembler feels like he'd go in and actually elaborate and make it clear that he's totally doing what's best for the town (rather than not explaining at all), and then posts a vote.

So yeah, towntell, he's just genuinely fuckin useless.

[Mathdino]

The fuck scum motivation do you think there is in arguing a completely inactive Assembler is town, HAVING PLAYED WITH TOWN-ASSEMBLER 4 TIMES, using logic that has an extremely high rate of clearing 2017ers for me?

Like jesus fucking christ a grand total of 0 of the players who've scumread me have:
- Told me why the Godel wagon was shit
- Engaged with my reads or told me why they think my reads are wrong
- Answered my questions about other players when I've asked for help on my reads to be less shit
- Helped early wagon people for reactions

Meanwhile, half of said players find it perfectly acceptable to bitch about the gamestate when I've been doing what I'm reasonably capable of to sort with the techniques that I know, while LITERALLY A MAJORITY OF THE PLAYERS have made fewer goddamn posts than the mod?

I'm not a difficult fucking read with flips/VCA. I'm good at setup breaking and I'm good at picking the right lynches. Scum kills an active player tonight and town coasts on night actions tomorrow.

Or tries to, because this setup is designed to do exactly that.

We are lynching someone who is actually responsible for hurting the gamestate.

Edit: Venmar, here's how I work:
1. Scan posts for town-indicative things
2. Ask myself (often by gut) whether the player in question seems likely to post that as scum faking town
3. Filter out the content that seems easy to fake by scum
4. Leave in the posts that seem outside said players' scumrange

Some players bleed town, when I literally believe that almost every single post they make would be outside their scum range.
0 people have bled town this game. All I have is nuggets.
I'm not going to just townread someone for being smart and writing decent posts. Especially when they make trash arguments that are well written.
You and Cooldog have in broad ways dismissed my attempts at sorting players by focusing on me openly talking about what I don't know, or can't read. Again ignoring the fact that I can fucking easily just read a bunch of posts and bullshit some evidence for a strong read one way or another.
Saying "I don't fucking know how to read this" is not scumread-worthy. Get off your high horse.

[Mathdino]

It's not alignment indicative and this is my last post for the next 7.5 hours, but it'll cast some light on earlier actions.

Negative ability is a 1 shot next day janitor. Potentially the worst possible negative. I realised claiming was probably a bad idea on the logic of "LYNCH MATH BEFORE HE CAN USE IT" but w/e. It's confirmable by me not using it, like I said repeatedly and before I ever thought I'd get run up today.

Targeted ability is protective.

Passive is ascetic, also applying to NKs.

So yeah if Alisae thinks I'd sacrifice a flip on the chance that a kill is stopped down the line... That's insane.

I basically claim VT. If you want flavour lemme know, but Im pretty sure there are safeclaim PMs anyway, so idk why it matters.

[Mathdino]

Dipping into the reserve to nail in that y'all are NOT D1 lynching the most active player in a town half full of lurkers when I've done absolutely nothing anti-town other than pissing people off.

@Gamma: Your play in every game I've seen you in has been wildly different. I'm confident that had I been town in RC's game, I would've been scumreading you anyway. You were in my lynchlist in Marked For Death IIRC. Don't think I can say much else (although this would be a helluvalot easier if I had a few weeks to expand on this and sort your slot better).
Point is, I 100% believe you're a player that can be meta-read, but I in no way feel like I'm the one qualified to do that.

@Vax: Of fucking course it sounds that way, my role was hilariously obviously designed for scum. Go see me deflate when I realised that positive abilities couldn't be used until after the negative. Every given role had a 1/5 chance of rolling scum, I didn't get it.
I have 0 reason to fakeclaim this role as either alignment (and why would scum be more likely to get a BP than an ascetic, wat?).

Hardclaim Camila Cabello:

Bad Things: Something about it not mattering if someone is good or bad, so I conceal the flip.

Havana: I prefer not to hardclaim what kind of protective this is, but surprise surprise, it's basically a scum role.

Consequences (deep track off her album): Actions have consequences, and that makes me ascetic. Which is weird because ascetic means actions DON'T have consequences but whatever, fuck it.

Look, if you're scumreading me, you're gonna be scumreading me harder as a result of this, I get it. I have 0 utility at night but I have maximum utility during the day. When I AM confident in my reads, my reads are good.

Edit: Okay I'm pulling it up.
Next-day janitor applies to everyone (I literally can't think of a worse ability than this, other than "kill a random townie"; I softclaimed the utter horribleness of fliplessness earlier).
And no, it's a passive 1-shot ascetic. A commuter has the choice. I say "also for NKs" because I've never seen an ascetic that was immune to NKs, so there it is. I can't think of any other utility for being ascetic.

Aaaand I just realised that means I can never get checked, fucking lol.
Unless my passive doesn't apply until after negative ability usage?

[Mathdino]

Were you even following what was happening?

Post 154 is a post from Assemblerotws where he says that both Varsoon and Venmar are both scum and they are arguing in order to lure Mathdino in a trap. Mathdino says it "isn't a completely brain dead thought". I call him out on it and he argues that he's never played with scum-Assemblerotws, but he imagined what scum-Assemblerotws would be like and he's not playing like that, therefore he's town.

If all that sounds like legit logic to you, then by all means call my vote braindead again.

You can disagree with my logic all you want. I find towntells the way I find towntells.

Obviously his logic is bad. I don't actually believe Varsoon/Venmar were scum theatring it the fuck up to trap me. Assembler's logic is often bad due to lack of awareness of the gamestate.

The point is that in relatively new players, what I look for is nuanced thought that shows lack of alignment knowledge. Often that takes place in the form of moon logic, which I think rarely comes from scum. I believe Assembler believed this. "Not brain dead" doesn't mean "good". Just means "he actually put SOME thought into trying to solve the game".

That's just it, they wouldn't. I was arguing that your role SHOULD be BP if you were town, not some weird ass ascetic role. Does anyone else's passive role not make sense like this?

1. The roles were alignment-randomised. My role was obviously designed as a better-for-scum role, but it rolled town. I don't believe modifications were made to accommodate the actual alignments.

2. It's a 1-shot ascetic that makes me ascetic upon the first time I get targeted.

It's awkward for me that players say I am good at the game until I vote them and their wagon is about to hit lynch, then bad play for me is 'lowkey expected'.
Like no shit m8 I'm no good at this game.

You just read like someone who is much better as scum than town, because of the unreadability of your posting style (and the lack of accountability for shit reads).

[Mathdino]

Varsoon, I'm completely aware of the mechanical benefit in lynching a literal janitor claim. I don't expect any WIFOMy towncred for outright claiming a scum role.

@Anyone who is questioning my protective:

It's a jailkeeper. I whisk people's hearts to Havana. Yes, it's basically a scum role. I don't genuinely believe there's anything here that's +town utility.

What I am expecting is the awareness that
1. You should absolutely not be lynching me just because OH WOW A SCUMFLIP HERE WOULD REALLY BE HIGH INFORMATION. No, jackass, you lynch someone whose townflip would also give information. I'm being compromise lynched. Half the people on my wagon are doing this because of no attractive alternatives. I don't even HAVE attractive alternatives other than hebichan who is literally defending me right now.

2. You should not be bitching about activity, going silent, and then deadline lynching the most active player for not scumhunting when you guys have been the ones straight up not responding to my efforts to sort people.
Case and point: Kublai Khan here thinks it fit to vote me solely for my first read in the list, and then waste 3 posts out of both of us to finally explain why he thought my read was bad... and then not counter with his own read on Assembler.

This town is fucked and there's 0 teamwork going on. I am a team player, my presence benefits town, and when it benefits town too much (and I'm scum) I have, in the past, straight up lurked it out hoping that no one would notice my town meta.

[Mathdino]

HEY A WHOLE LOT OF YOU NEED TO READ PAGE 1 AND HOW THIS SETUP WAS GENERATED.

Reck created 15 town roles and then randomised them. He created those 15 roles by taking 15 premade abilities in each of the 3 categories and assigning them to songs that made sense. Apparently next day janitor, jailkeeper, and ascetic matched my flavour most.

When I say my role is a scum role, I mean it is transparently +scum utility, as I don't think any targeted/passive could ever justify the next day janitor. I think Alisae hoped this would roll scum.

If you take investment in the game or one's win condition as alignment indicative this might be of interest. But, even if one were to base a read in such or not, one must grant that the fact that he claimed scum should be enough to lynch him,

it is an overriding reason

to any secondary reads. Here is the proof:

P1) Math Dino is scum or town
P2) IF Mathdino is town, THEN he would not claim scum. *
P3) Mathdino said his claim was a scum claim. By modus tollens,
P4) Mathdino is

NOT

town. By disjunctive syllogism we get,
------
C) Mathdino is SCUM

* There are several reasons why one should accept this conditional statement. For starters, Town should not lie. A town member should never say, "hay guys, I'ma gonna act scummy here for a second and try to get away with it. har, di, har, har". This runs contrary to their win condition. Essentially they are town acting like scum that is contrary to the town motivation of wanting to lynch scum and not lynch town. To act scummy as town is to encourage people to lynch town, thus it is against one's win condition to act as mathdino has. Assuming that Mathdino is acting rationally (part of the "authentic" part of my read) we must conclude that he is scum from the above proof. Now, if you were to say that he is an idiot who does not understand the game (

which I don't think he is

) then this would be a valid defense along the lines of "lynch the vi".

What the actual fuck? You wasted 5 paragraphs to tell me that town doesn't lie and therefore I'm scum?

MY ROLE IS A SCUM ROLE THAT HAPPENED TO ROLL TOWN.

I am not literally claiming my alignment is scum.

This would be like if a given mafia member had a 1-shot cop targeted ability, and rolled mafia, where the cop is obviously useless. That is a town role that is mafia-aligned.

I've never EVER fakeclaimed as town, and I never intend to (except in the specific situation of drawing a counterclaim to break open setups).
The reason I don't fakeclaim is because it ruins my credibility in the future.
I've never scumclaimed as town, except in obvious cases of irony.

I am NOT a VI.

but he wouldn't claim it as town

What the fuck? Do you WANT me to lie about my role then?
The only reason I was considering holding out on this claim is to avoid the logic of "Lynch Mathdino because he's gonna use it tonight and scumclaim because he's getting lynched tomorrow anyway".

hell nah, but he claimed some bullshit to justify what he is going to be using this night phase and he said just as much himself. Also, he wasn't even at l-1, goddamnit. How do you not see this claim as fishy?

And the reason I claimed early was because I was fucking obviously going to be the deadline lynch, and I didn't want to wait until the last minute when, again, half the playerlist has fewer posts than the damn mod. I wanted to give time so you guys can consider my full progression.

@venmar
it is too nebulous for town

Also, He claimed a softer version of his scum-positive as a town-negative. He claimed some obscure town ability as his positive to seem vtish, and he didn't tell us his other ability, which I assume would be alignment indicative of him being scum, as he himself admits.

What?

In what world do you live in where abilities are alignment indicative in ROLE MADNESS?

[Mathdino]

This game was designed as follows.
1. Each player was given one of the artists they submitted.
2. I chose three song titles for each artist to represent their three abilities.
3. Player alignments were randomized.
4. A pool of abilities were brainstormed between myself and Alisae.
5. Abilities were slotted into song titles where I could make the flavor somewhat fit.

Okay never mind I was wrong then. I mixed up Reck's game design process with my own. Alignments were randomised before abilities were distributed.

I don't know what the fuck Alisae/Reck were thinking in giving me a next day janitor. I really do not. I'm guessing they basically did this because the flavour somewhat makes sense.

@Mod: Can you confirm that abilities were assigned to players after their alignments were created?

Regardless, I'm not claiming scum, I'm claiming a scum role that's town-aligned.

@Varsoon: I've faked a townslip once before. Stop trying to read me off of setup spec and look at my play. Lynching me is pretty obviously a godawful idea.

[Mathdino]

I love that pirate mollie chastises me for not reading then votes for someone that got replaced already.

UNVOTE: the assembler I guess, until we find a replacement.

uwotm8
how does this matter

Lets break this down. I really think they are likely janitor/jailkeep/ascetic and he just threw the ascetic + NK in there to look town. As I mentioned earlier, I would think a town would just have have a BP instead of having all that negative utility. Gamma brought up a good point that ascetic + NK is basically just a commuter, so why call it ascetic + NK?

@EVERYONE Can anyone confirm to having negative utility passive?

I'm also wondering about what scum roles look like. Do they have all positive (to them) alignment based abilities? Or do they have negative utility they have to use? I'm thinking they have ALL positive based abilities (to them) because negative ability for scum are few and far between (maybe no day talk or something?) anything that would appear to help town could just be played of later as a town ability for town cred... making it positive utility. <----This is more theory crafting tho and just stuff im thinking about. If you respond to this post do not just respond to this one thought.

This doesn't make sense.

1. The reason I claimed "ascetic + NK" is specifically because I recently played a game with an mafia asceticizer, and in that game, "ascetic" did not mean "kill-immune". I thought about that pregame and I was like "well shit, this is only worth it for me if I can use it essentially as a 1-shot BP". I specified that it could block kills to preempt the question of "is this the ascetic that blocks kills, or blocks all other actions?" It went against my understanding of "ascetic".
Bulletproof doesn't make sense with my flavour.

2. I mean it's only negative utility for me if I get copchecked for example before I claim. Otherwise it's really just a waste of a night action.

3. I would assume to preserve the integrity of safeclaims that negative abilities are negative for town, and scum have to justify having used those negative abilities as town. Positive abilities is probably basic shit like rolecop, roleblocker, vig, etc. Positive utility roles are often positive utility for everyone.

4. Final point: Stop it. If you try to sus out alignments based on roleclaims in role madness, you're outright doing it wrong. I just got out of a game with a scum compulsive bodyguard on a townie that was capable of suiciding (and passing on the death to the BG). I claimed because you asked me to, and because it explains my previous actions. It's ridiculous that you're taking this as a reason to completely reverse your read on me and wash away my contributions to the game just because you're trying to outguess a mod you've had no experience with.

Says in OP everyone has a negative utility.

I reckon that Math has swapped his first and last roles and tweaked them to make sense.

What? How does that make sense?

The negative utility role is a thing that hurts town (presumably). You activate it to get to the rest of your abilities.

My negative utility is a 1-shot next day janitor. That's activated, not passive.

My passive ability is a 1-shot reflexive ascetic; I get turned into an ascetic for a night when someone targets me (I don't know why that makes it reflexive but w/e).

How do those make sense as a scum passive ability and negative utility, respectively?

And if that's your biggest theory on why my role is scum, I'm literally confirmed every day by not using the janitor. Obviously if I ever use it, I should be autolynched (although fucking lol if there's a role that forces its use).

[Mathdino]

You know, I think I assumed it was kill immune because ascetic has literally no purpose otherwise (other than dodging roleblockers).

i've not seen a kill-immune ascetic, but i'm sure they exist. so you're not ascetic, you're night-action immune for one night reflexively?

According to the wiki it does not mean kill immune. Where did you get that idea from?
Wiki:
Ascetic is a role modifier (though it can function as a role in its own right) that causes a player to be immune to all actions at Night except kills. More precisely, Ascetic reflexively Roleblocks all actions taken against them except kills.

I checked with the mod just now, I am NOT night-immune.

Sorry for the confusion. The ascetic has 0 positive utility.

You know what they say about assuming.

[Mathdino]

@Vax 420: I swear dude you're the only person here scumreading me solely on my claim, which again, is hilarious, given that you were the one who asked for it.
What would you do if you were told that you had to use a next-day janitor in order to get supposedly good abilities, and you found your passive was a 1-shot ascetic? Do you assume that your entire role is shit, or that the ascetic can actually be used for something?
I went through mental gymnastics when I got the role to get to the point of thinking that the ascetic could possibly be useful. It's not.

How does doing all this benefit me as scum?

And to answer your question, I have literally assumed things about my roles in past role madness games that were not true because of wishful thinking.

@Venmar: Then wtf do you think my actual negative is? Do you want me to flavourclaim in full to prove I'm not making this shit up? Furthermore, why would I softclaim a negative this bad all game and broadcast that I wasn't gonna use it, if that was my targeted ability (thus balancing the game around me being able to use it)?
There seem to be 5 different interpretations of wtf is actually going on. The problem is 4 of them make me scum and 1 of them makes me town. So fuck it, go with the majority?
Occam's Razor is that I'm not lying (I don't fakeclaim, never have) and I was legitimately given a shit role.

@Gamma: Yeah, by using it and then lynching someone, which is obviously not what I'm doing.

Also why the fuck would I force the town to waste tomorrow's lynch so I can pick up a 1-shot Jailkeep and be un-investigatable/un-saveable?

There is 0 reason for me to ever use this negative. I'm not going to clean a flip just so people who think I'm scum lying about having a janitor know I actually had a janitor all along.

Also, it would be idiotic for me to fakeclaim janitor as scum when I could easily just be counterclaimed by some random townie. That's ridiculous. Either you think I'm telling the truth, or I have the janitor and I'm scum. Janitor fakeclaim is horrific.

[Mathdino]

Dude I've told you my scumspects

The problem is most of the people null and below are willing to counterwagon me

We don't have the time for me to conjure up a counterwagon on hebichan and I hate the Espeonage wagon

[Mathdino]

HI FRIENDS I'M AT L-2 WITH <2 DAYS ON DEADLINE

if you ever think i'll be of any value to this game, we need to counterwagon asap

continued reminder that napoleon has done nothing

thank you

[Mathdino]

I post my full reads and a fullclaim with a goddamn lynchpool what the hell do you want from me

Call me scum, fine

But I am NOT a fucking anti town player

You're literally putting me beneath Assembler, UT, cooldog, hebi, napoleon

Dunno wtf is wrong with you man i haven't had anyone engage me on that level of analysis

At how many years of mafia experience are you allowed to just not discuss reads with anyone

[Mathdino]

Was anyone here in geriatric grey flag nightless
Cuz that's literally exactly what's gonna happen this game
Give me a fucking day/night cycle to catch scum
As it is if half the game is lurking then yeah we counterwagon a lurker

I need people voting here but it sounds like half the game is unaware of my wagon at all

[Mathdino]

If anyone jumps off the counterwagon to me for a dumb shit vanity wagon I'm d2 vengelynching them

[Mathdino]

then you accept that us getting a flip tomorrow basically fucks your entire me-scum argument right?

like me as scum as this prime of a suspect would have to use the janitor as soon as possible right?

vax if my plan was to live long enough to use the janitor why the fuck would i just claim my janitor

[Mathdino]

vax, if your read on me all game suddenly flips just because of my claim, you're not playing this right

look around

there's no one scumreading me who's suddenly townreading me BECAUSE OF my claim

i'm not asking for townreads due to my claim, i'm asking you to realise that it's fucking NAI

and if you lynch me because of janitor paranoia, you have to then admit that you're policy lynching me for
1. having a shit role
2. not fakeclaiming a less devastating role

when are you going to realise that your read on me is basically always wrong

i'm telling you right now, even if i'm scum planning to use the janitor, you know what's gonna happen tomorrow?

i go as hyperactive as possible, generating activity and drawing associations all over the place (read my scumgames, it's not like i even try to fake associatives), fuck, maybe i even bus

then when the day ends flipless, you instantly know i'm scum, lynch or vig me, and by D4 you're playing 2:7 with 3 days' worth of associations and info

my point is that no matter what my alignment is, my increased activity tomorrow is going to be pro-town

lack of a flip isn't going to matter when you instantly know i'm scum and you can probably just determine the flip using my alignment anyway

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: your read on me basically always ends up wrong

to elaborate
in the situation that i'm scum, i obviously will use the janitor tonight
either
A. i bus (or scum gets lynched), in which case fuck the scumteam and we're playing 11:1 which is a super obvious town win
B. i don't bus (or i do and town gets lynched without me), in which case you can just assume that whoever gets lynched is just town anyway

[Mathdino]

Vax, it is exactly as simple as I'm making it out to be.
Using the janitor tonight for scum-me is suicide.
You've admitted that my play today has been not just townish but pro-town and scumhunty.
So we can accept that my dayplay will be beneficial for town, yes?

Then you're lynching me for nightplay. Fine. I have a shit role.
But if scum me uses the janitor and we hit scum tomorrow, scumteam is dead in a ditch. In this sort of case, it's almost for sure best to just assume whoever gets lynched tomorrow is town.

My point is that since you guys all know i'm the janitor now, scum-me using the janitor would not actually be devastating for town. The reason I've called my role devastating all game is because it's devastating FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, because using it would completely fuck up my ability to scumhunt. From your points of view, if I use the janitor, I'm just claiming scum and that's that.

Leave me alive. Lynch me D3 if no flip. And cut the paranoia. You know full well this game grinds to a fucking halt if you lynch the most active player and let lurkers lurk.

[Mathdino]

Absolutely not unless you can promise me on your life that tomorrow's flip will not be hidden.

Like I'm already guessing you're gonna have me use it (or scum is gonna activate it somehow) and you're gonna lynch me, I won't flip, and you're gonna assume I'm scum. No thanks.

[Mathdino]

WHY THE HELL WOULD I EVER WANT TO JANITOR A TARGET

HOW DOES THIS HELP YOU IN ANY WAY

[Mathdino]

if you're looking for scumslips, no dice

it's pretty clear that i mean "why would I want to janitor someone"

but to clarify, i don't believe i in fact target the person so that was a bad choice of words

mechanically, it's the same to you

if anyone doesn't flip, you should lynch me

and lol at venmar trying to get me to clean anyway

[Mathdino]

I appreciate that no one had any commentary on venmar actively trying to get me to use the janitor

Thanks for the hammer

[Mathdino]

vax a great tip for improving is to stop swinging around a "I'M 100% SURE OF EVERYTHING" until you're actually >90% correct about your D1 tunnels

also stop lynching mechanically

[Mathdino]

also im sorry but it had to be done

confused as to why you didn't just tell me you could ensure the janitor wouldn't go through

explain the mass roleblock
does it only target negative abilities? clearly didn't affect the 2 kills

this doesn't feel like multiball, i think a crosskill would be debilitating for scum
although it'd be hilarious if all the scum were purposefully avoiding taking a presence

VCA incoming
having trouble seeing how town wins if they decide to just default lynch me every day
i had better wagons available but it took right up until the deadline just to lynch a nullslot so lynching my scumreads wasn't an option
VOTE: hebichan
leaving this here for now

[Mathdino]

Votecount 1.8

Mathdino(4)

~ CooLDoG(10), Venmar(22), Varsoon(19), SleepyKrew(15)

Gödel(4)

~ Mathdino(22), hebichan(4), Gamma Emerald(18), Sir Elton Hercules John(6)

Vaxkiller(1)

~ Gödel(4)

SleepyKrew(1)

~ Espeonage(9)

hebichan(1)

~ DeathNote(19)

DeathNote(1)

~ Vaxkiller(12)

CooLDoG(1)

~ Napoleon III(7)

Assemblerotws(1)

~ pirate mollie(12)


Not Voting (1): Assemblerotws(3)

So at this point I think for reasons outside of VCA itself, Cooldog and Venmar are more likely to be town. Varsoon's jump on is bad in retrospect. SKrew seemed to be early wagon shopping, which is fine.
The Godel wagon jump-ons were also bad from Hebi/Gamma in particular, but I've gone over this. UT's seems NAI.

Votecount 1.10

Mathdino(4)

~ CooLDoG(10), Venmar(26), Varsoon(25), Espeonage(21)

Espeonage(4)

~ Vaxkiller(23), Gamma Emerald(30), SleepyKrew(29), Assemblerotws(4)

Kublai Khan(2)

~ Mathdino(35), Sir Elton Hercules John(8)

Vaxkiller(1)

~ Kublai Khan(6)

hebichan(1)

~ DeathNote(25)

Gamma Emerald(1)

~ hebichan(8)

CooLDoG(1)

~ Napoleon III(8)

Assemblerotws(1)

~ pirate mollie(14)

Espeonage's wagon starts as a counterwagon/chainsaw wagon to my own, further indicating my wagon was largely (unfortunately) town motivated. I'd be surprised if everyone on the Espeonage wagon was town.
We also see a nice spicy DN vote on hebichan while hebi avoids major wagons and goes after the other Godel-wagon.

Votecount 1.11

Napoleon III(5)

~ Gamma Emerald(39), Mathdino(50), SleepyKrew(38), hebichan(10), Varsoon(31)

Mathdino(5)

~ CooLDoG(23), Venmar(33), Espeonage(26), DeathNote(33), Kublai Khan(17)

Espeonage(2)

~ Vaxkiller(31), Chara(5)

Kublai Khan(1)

~ Sir Elton Hercules John(9)

CooLDoG(1)

~ Napoleon III(13)


Not Voting (1): pirate mollie(21)

Here it's crunch time. Scum would avoid last-minute pile-ons to me due to the embarrassment/suspicion from my townflip. Death of DN and KK (and Napoleon) shows Mathdino wagon was at least in large part town driven. So I'm thinking scum on Napoleon wagon at this point; alignment informed, didn't want to be caught lynching me. Vaxkiller piling onto me for godawful reasons later on is also likely town.

Napoleon wagon at this time was {Gamma, SKrew, hebi, Varsoon}. SKrew still seems okay to me. Varsoon voting pattern in retrospect is still bad; sets himself up for two mislynches in a row.

I think you guys get the point. There's very likely scum in {Gamma, hebi}, both of whom displayed some level of alignment-informedness toward my slot.

[Mathdino]

So why give that up to go wagon Espeonage when Godel had done nothing worthy of unvoting?

Still scumreading hebichan over you but yeah.

[Mathdino]

I'm not trying to do VCA to convince you guys I'm town, lol. I'm doing it to try to sort people myself. I'm obviously approaching knowing I'm town.

I believe that given my contributions and activity, scum were purposefully avoiding my wagon because of the terrible optics of it. If there IS scum on my wagon, I actually think it's Cooldog, who started it for questionable reasons and kind of just voteparked it the whole day.

In fact, given that literally all major wagons of the day except Espeonage are confirmed town FMPOV (and I'm townreading Espeonage), this points more to inactive scumteam and town implosion. Hence, hebichan.

[Mathdino]

I also see chara is parroting my argument on dino... if hes not 100% guaranteed town, we have to lynch him.

the fuck is this supposed to mean

vax, you're lynching me literally based on my ability claim, you already admitted that the case on me through D1 was mostly balls

i'm never going to be 100% guaranteed town

but i am going to tell you there are definitely other players who feel alignment informed

look let me level with you, there are 2 scenarios:

A. I'm town, and scum knew I was town and didn't want to be caught on my lynchwagon. Therefore we lynch the Napoleon wagon.

B. I'm scum, and my scumbuddies counterwagoned Napoleon to save me because I'm the most active scum. Therefore you lynch the Napoleon wagon.

there's virtually no chance of me not getting blocked, checked, or vigged at this rate. in the meantime, our goals basically align. you think i'm scum, help me bus

[Mathdino]

because you were never actually scumreading me, while cooldog and venmar clearly were (along with DN and KK)
it pisses me off when people lynch solely off mechanics
like i just modded a game where every lynch and vigshot was basically motivated by mechanics and setup spec and scum got a perfect victory
it doesn't work, stop thinking role = alignment

A. Who's scum on my wagon then if I flip town? In other words, whose scumread of me appeared the least genuine? Because thus far every single townflip has been on my wagon.

B. What? Town absolutely could've started the counterwagon with scum joining after. My point is today's lynch should be any one of the 8 people on the Napoleon wagon. A lot of the votes were LAMISTy too, as a "Well I'm definitely not lynching Mathdino, he's sooooo town!"

I'll give you an option C. Option C is that scum bussed the shit out of scum-me. Do you see that as particularly likely when my janitor is potentially one of the most powerful scum utility abilities in the game?

No, it makes no sense.

Point is, regardless what you think of me, we should be lynching the people who counterwagoned me.
VOTE: hebichan

[Mathdino]

UT vote is okay-I-guess. I'm townreading a few of those posts though. 548 indicates that he actually tried to use his negative ability in the most pro-town way he thought he could (I assume it's some cheesy shit like post restricting Cooldog). That said, he was on the Godel wagon and he was on the Napoleon wagon, and his avoidance of major wagons through the day heavily indicates scum by VCA.

SKrew is being himself. Idk what you're expecting there. I'm townreading him.

@hebi: I'm singling you out because your vote switch to Godel was weird and your defence of me feels alignment informed, on top of the fact that the gamestate of D1 works better with a lurky scumteam.
Vaxkiller vote is straight up bad and needs an explanation.

[Mathdino]

lol keep me around long enough and scum-me softbusses all my scumbuddies
as long as we agree to lynch people on the napoleon wagon we're good

i'd like you to talk about gamma and hebichan
gamma has produced a lot of content but hebichan hasn't, and that seems to be your main issue with UT/SKrew

like if you took issue with my voting patterns on D1 i don't see how hebi's are any better
hebi half-assed onto the godel wagon

[Mathdino]

lol keep me around long enough and scum-me softbusses all my scumbuddies

I open the thread to back page, see this, and go yay I'm voting scum.

Good to know you're still not planning on adding jackshit to the game.

- You interacted with me literally not at all before voting me both days, which is counter to your apparent mafia philosophy.

- You've made little to no effort to actually sort people or give reads, instead coming in and calling me dumb or scum, or coming up with new theories on my roleclaim (WELP DOESNT MATTER DINO IS STILL SCUM).

- You also haven't even pushed the narrative in which I'm scum.

Like I'm assuming you're town based on gutreading a few of your posts along with the assumption that your wagon was scum-driven, but it would be real cool if you put an ounce of effort into this game. Cuz we're in a rough spot if we waste time til the deadline and compromise lynch town again.

[Mathdino]

When the top lynch candidates for most people are also the active posters
While you're willing to admit that lowposters haven't given you enough to sort them
Yep this is a game in which tactical lurking is literally the optimal strategy.

Like, yeah, once you start the scumread on me you're gonna see more posts as yet more evidence I'm scum, congrats

But I have an easy explanation for my wagon being mostly town:
Town is bad and signed up for a geriatric game so they don't have to seriously commit to effective scumhunting (many haven't played mafia in way too long)
And got distracted by someone with an odd playstyle out

D1 reads like town implosion.
Basing your reads around me flipping scum is setting yourself up for an infoless d3

[Mathdino]

Cooldog, it sounds to me like you're primarily reading the gamestate through the lens of me already flipping scum.

Do you have any reads from my POV, or commentary on the reads I've already made?

[Mathdino]

I asked you your thoughts on them for two reasons:
1. To get you to talk about them more for potential associations
2. To help me inform my own reads on them.

When I say "read FMPOV" I specifically mean "If I'm town, help me interpret wtf happened yesterday". Because I'm still suffering from the whole "no one is really helping me develop my reads because half of the game is assuming I'm scum".

I don't see how talking to me as if I'm scum helps anyone. I'll vote Gamma if there's a better argument for him being alignment informed than hebichan.

Point is, there's just not that much objective analysis of Gamma, or analysis of him independent of your read on me (or any analysis on the conditional that I'm town).

Given that I am town, this not only means most of your analysis is useless in terms of associations (because after I flip, scum-you can just reverse your read entirley through a new lens), but it's also useless to me trying to progress the gamestate and my reads.

Extrapolated outward, this is basically my frustration with the game as a whole.

[Mathdino]

I mean I generally agree that if I'm scum, my posting is scum-motivated and consistent with me being scum, and everything I say can be assumed to be an attempt to gain towncred.

And there are a lot of nice arguments you could make if you start off scumreading me and continuously see every post as new evidence/confirmation of that.

But you've just not made good arguments on why my posting is inconsistent as town, and your arguments w.r.t Gamma are pretty weak through the lens of me being town. The centrepiece of your analysis of Gamma is clearly his behaviour around my wagon, some of which I'm actually just townreading.

Guess we wait on input from others.

[Mathdino]

this game is truly a pinnacle of activity and scum must be lulzing as they coast

Literally my point all day

Do you have any read on the lack of apparent scum trying save me or hebichan

Cuz I'm inching toward literally lynching every single lurker slot

[Mathdino]

Okay so I've been thinking about this and I heavily, heavily doubt this is multiball. I don't believe Reck mods unannounced geriatric UPick multiball at all.

Calling this setup as 11:3:1 with some OP serial killer.

I think we should continue hunting for groupscum as normal, and use the NKs to find SK later on.

[Mathdino]

Also recall that multiball setups are balanced around the possibility of crosskill. In a setup like this, crosskill is basically endgame for either scumteam. I also think enough people acted alignment informed yesterday that we can reasonably assume the scumteam, whoever they are, is not genuinely scumhunting.

moderated & created by: xRECKONERx
reluctant backup moderator: PenguinPower

review & design squadron: Alisae,

MathBlade

This should 100% confirm to anyone who's played themes in the past year that this is a SK game and not multiball.

[Mathdino]

I could get behind voting this just to make it stop talking. what the actual fuck dude.

Do you really think the setup is 11:2:2?

I don't know how better to explain a gut feeling that this hasn't played out how I'd expect multiball to.

[Mathdino]

I'm responding to you talking about "the scum was clearly not scumhunting". That just seems like a complete non-sequitur to me.

So would it sound less garbage to you to say "yeah I feel in my soul that D1 wasn't multiball"?

I'm scumreading my scumreads specifically because I think they're alignment informed. If you rolled onto a 2 person scumteam, you would instantly know this is multiball and would thus not at all be alignment informed.

THAT is what I mean by not genuinely scumhunting. There were a few players that seemed to be defending me more for political reasons.

[Mathdino]

Varsoon is lynchable, sticking with my scumread.

Let's be honest though, the more we spread out votes, the more likely I'm the deadline lynch.

So to reiterate reads (based on groupscum, not serial killer):
- My D1 wagon was likely 0 or 1 scum
- Lynch from the Napoleon wagon, multiple players appeared alignment informed
- Lynchpool: {hebichan, Varsoon, UT, Gamma}
- Don't-lynchpool: {Venmar, Vax, Chara, Titus}
- The setup is 11:3:1, and anyone who's ever played an Alisae game should know this.
- Stop thinking role is indicative of alignment kthx.

I believe Titus believes what she's saying about Venmar and that's honestly all that matters.

@Gamma: The roles were chosen before the picks were sent in. The roles were distributed to fit the picks.

[Mathdino]

Honestly if they say they're self resolving I'm inclined to just believe them

Plus both are actually somewhat responsive which is nice

Hebichan, Gamma, UT lynchpool
And where the fuck is Espeonage, did I miss him producing content recently

[Mathdino]

Notable that hebichan and mollie (and to a much lesser extent UT) both locktowned me on D1 but have since moved me into nullpool/lynchpool without explanation, now that 2 potential votes on me died at night.

This is really icky. I feel like both wagons today are scum-driven. I'll obviously vote a nullread again to save myself again (unless Gamma has provably positive town utility), but this is getting kind of ridiculous.

@Espeonage: I mean if you want the honest/ugly answer, I'm not getting wagoned as hard right now because 2 votes on my D1 wagon are now dead.

[Mathdino]

This game was designed as follows.
1. Each player was given one of the artists they submitted.
2. I chose three song titles for each artist to represent their three abilities.
3. Player alignments were randomized.
4. A pool of abilities were brainstormed between myself and Alisae.
5. Abilities were slotted into song titles where I could make the flavor somewhat fit.

4 before 5

[Mathdino]

My scumreads are all basically VCA based.

Do some VCA on the idea that both 7 vote wagons yesterday were town and get back to me.

Also lemme know if anything changes if Venmar is conftown. He says he can prove himself tonight, and we should 100% just let him. This is like lynching a claimed D3 innocent child just because you're a D4 innocent child.

[Mathdino]

Honestly if they say they're self resolving I'm inclined to just believe them

Plus both are actually somewhat responsive which is nice

Hebichan, Gamma, UT lynchpool
And where the fuck is Espeonage, did I miss him producing content recently

Why isn't Titus in your lynchpool
Look at Skrew's d1 play and tell me that isn't scum trying to further the town implosion

Because she believes what she's saying about Venmar, and what she's doing is basically neg utility for scum when Venmar confs himself as town. If she pushes the logic of "there can't be 2 town roleblockers in this game" guess what's gonna happen once we get Venmar's role PM?

Titus is a policy lynch, nothing more.

[Mathdino]

is this a bad time to remind everyone that i my targeted ability is a jailkeeper

[Mathdino]

Town that currently doesn't seem to understand how to be helpful in this setup/gamestate

I already talked about her in this page

@Gamma: I don't have a super strong read either way on SKrew. I'm just townreading Titus.

[Mathdino]

Well the replacement has made my motivation to vote SK slot even lower.

Not really liking Gamma, Mathdino, or Elton anymore.

Willing to vote on any of them based on their recent posts.

M'bad

I switched from a townread to a scumread then.

Activity.

Pretty solid.

[Mathdino]

i'm holding out hope that you're not the compromise lynch tbh

[Mathdino]

Gamma Emerald(3) ~ hebichan(11), CooLDoG(26), Varsoon(28)
Mathdino(2) ~ Espeonage(12), Sir Elton Hercules John(5)
Venmar(1) ~ Titus(11)
Varsoon(1) ~ Venmar(28)
Titus(1) ~ Gamma Emerald(25)
hebichan(1) ~ Mathdino(20)


Not Voting (3): Chara(17), pirate mollie(5), Vaxkiller(14)

@Titus: hebichan is a scumread of mine, Varsoon less so, Cooldog is the scum on my D1 wagon if there was even any scum at all (given that I'm townreading him, am thinking there was no scum).

Then UT would be the scum pushing my wagon today.

[Mathdino]

Feel like I'd be willing to lynch mollie for that vote. She has to know it's not going anywhere.

Plus SK-hunting is a huge mafia-tell.

[Mathdino]

If he says he can confirm himself as strictly town, we let him. Why lynch him today over tomorrow?

I find it really amusing that I'm basically in this position for attacking everyone who townread me yesterday while explicitly keeping alive the people scumreading me

This is an impossible situation and idk why you think scum-me actively burns bridges everywhere possible

[Mathdino]

I don't know if anyone expects me to do anything different here.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

Basically holding out for Titus, mollie, and Chara to all vote with me.

[Mathdino]

I am answering math so don't even try to paint me as obsessing about serial killers when math has been bringing it up all day and I was pointing that out. in which his response was "no u".

The fact that there is a serial killer does not mean we should be SK hunting, especially not for people who can explicitly confirm themselves as town (or not groupscum). That's an objectively suboptimal play. You lynch people who could be either SK OR groupscum. Plus, the setup is probably balanced around crosskills, so I'd bet that SK dying right now would actually help mafia more than town.

Look the point is this: Everyone who wasn't on my wagon yesterday for some reason or another but is now piling onto my wagon (because I can't get lynched without them) is literally the scum.

[Mathdino]

(vaxx townread died a while ago sorry)

Must have been around the same time I announced my suspicion of you!

literally correct
every time someone votes venmar or varsoon we have to play a game of "dumb or scum" in our heads

what part of "literally self-confirmable" don't you guys understand

[Mathdino]

gamma and cooldog are both scumreading titus

you are not all of us lol

[Mathdino]

Jesus christ.

VOTE: mollie

I'm not lynching Gamma. That was going to be a self-vote but I'm not a little bitch. If you're gonna lynch one of me/Gamma, lynch me and neverlynch him when I flip town.

[Mathdino]

I parked a vote on hebichan, no one gave a shit.

Venmar can literally confirm himself, Varsoon claims he can confirm himself.

I'm not lynching Gamma, that's ridiculous.

Titus/SKrew is town.

Scumreads are {hebichan, mollie, UT}.
"would lynch over myself" is {Cooldog, Espe, Chara, Vax} and I guess Varsoon.
"would not lynch over myself" is {Gamma, Venmar}.

[Mathdino]

i literally called all 3 scum and then all the people you should never lynch and you guys mislynched me for it

this is the most experienced playerlist i've ever played with

i'm actually legitimately disappointed in you guys based on your reputations

[Mathdino]

like i feel like my entire game was just being simultaneously shit on by the entire goddamn town while the scum buddied me until they were FORCED to lynch me to get rid of my reads

i was the single most active player in the game with the most accurate reads

that's not me being an arrogant bitch in general (i have godawful reads in a lot of games)

but that is me saying that you guys had 0 justification for treating my slot the way you did

[Mathdino]

i'm a little bit vindicated because espeonage got lynched by horrible reads while he couldn't defend himself

just like i was LOLHAMMERED WHAT EVEN

but there is no universe in which espeonage or titus should EVER have been lynched either of those two days

[Mathdino]

i'm actually legitimately disappointed in you guys based on your reputations

I dunno I feel like this pretty much lines up with mine

i mean that's the thing

to me, the entire scum basically scumclaimed

my reads are not usually this good, but everyone else obvtowned and you guys obvscummed

napoleon was a policy deadline lynch, so that was whatever

i made my preference very clear on D1 that i wanted hebichan to be the lynch but that would've gotten me killed

i really don't know what i could've done differently this game, this was peak mathdino in terms of reads/activity

[Mathdino]

also we need to talk about geriatric games

because i felt like the mod was plenty active

and the last time i played geriatric, i felt like it actually helped town because a lot of the players were fairly active in general, and were forced to condense their information into smaller posts

this game was awful for it though

like the inactivity absolutely ruined all 4 days

my high activity turned me into a "the tallest nail gets the hammer" parable :/

[Mathdino]

kublai, i play in certain ways that lead me to win games in the current meta

the VCA pointed to my scumteam

the interactives pointed to my scumteam

and i had solid PoE that also pointed to my scumteam

i have, in every other playerlist as town, corralled lynches

the logic was good, that's why it was right

the "angry squelches" were admittedly a "don't mislynch me" ploy and that's legitimately what got me enough townreads to survive past D1

so i'm not taking your criticism as especially constructive

[Mathdino]

like, 90% of the time, my charisma >>> my reads

this was a rarity

[Mathdino]

I believe that given my contributions and activity, scum were purposefully avoiding my wagon because of the terrible optics of it. If there IS scum on my wagon, I actually think it's Cooldog, who started it for questionable reasons and kind of just voteparked it the whole day.

oh while we're at it cooldog was the only scum on my wagon

4/4 lol

[Mathdino]

that part's not on me though!

like it's your responsibility to either have good reads or recognise good logic that works on the current meta :/

and i never ignore my scumreads until they literally claim scum. unless you have absolutely amazing reads (which no one does), ignoring your scumreads ends up ignoring town almost every single game

i was producing more content than anyone else in the game too

[Mathdino]

idk, there was a lot to talk about with mathdino, and it feels everyone went the lazy route with him. i think there's a lot less blame to be attributed to someone when their wagon is pushed by scum and by townies who refuse to look into a deeper picture that goes past surface level reads.

KTS, my wagon was, at the end of Day 1, literally all town plus the serial killer

the thing is, on D2, i gamesolved that, saying repeatedly "if there was any scum on my wagon yesterday, it's cooldog"

i actively pushed the people who townread me on D1 because it felt fake (i couldn't push them super hard on D1 because i knew they'd just lynch me for it)

and that was the point where the entire scumteam jumped on my wagon

i'm honestly really not sure how titus didn't pick up on that VCA

[Mathdino]

it happens. sometimes players just need to take a step back and say "whoa, hold on a second, this doesn't feel right." your wagon obviously wasn't natural and was chaotically construed. inactivity was a large killer of this, i think, but i think that surface level explanations of why you could be scum perhaps might delve into that, too. i think you might have been a little too reactive at the same time towards players. as a good thing, it helped you develop your reads, but it made you come across as a pressured wolf at times. idk, like i said, you might get that one game where you get mislynched when you feel your obv villa.

it's just always the older players that scumread me and it's like
i can't please everyone even if i want to figure out how to

the town wasn't invested in this game at all and it showed

i think the geriatric ruleset attracted people who just shouldn't have been playing mafia in the first place

[Mathdino]

To be fair, yeah, your read were a problemmm

I feel like I played really well though, considering I had no confidence in my game.

Also on mathdino's wagon... that was all town, I was stepping as far away as that as I could.

i mean yeah you staying off my wagon the way you did was what made you obvscum to me in a way

i thought i'd be able to get at least a few votes on you D2 but loltowns

[Mathdino]

I'm town yeah
I legit targeted you because I figured you were the best one to help me get a handle on the game

lol gamma not picking me

[Mathdino]

gamma literally the primary reason i didn't push you at all D2 is because i expected you to neighbourise me

reckoner told me that there was no dead thread specifically because there was a way i could come back

i was so hyped

and then you picked the guy that hardpushed my mislynch instead -_-

[Mathdino]

but yeah fair

D3/D4 still never should've gone the way they did

[Mathdino]

i was reading and i guess i wasn't reading into mechanics very hard at all

(and fucking hell guys, this game would've been solvable by massclaim, all of scum's negative abilities are negative SCUM utility. my claim was confirmed town)

but i legit didn't understand at all why mollie scumslipped

to me she scumslipped just by pivoting on her read on me

[Mathdino]

- i complained about wallposts shitting up the game at the beginning and people got upset at me when i told them i wasn't going to read into them
also i ironically said "wallposts are all garbage" and old playerlists are apparently a 100% joke-free zone

- varsoon wanted someone he could trust (for his role), and i told him he could trust me. this was seen as scummy, so instead he "trusted" scum-pirate-mollie.

- i voteparked a lurker to pressure them into posting (and see who would jump on the wagon). they got replaced, the slot crucified me for it, and town didn't like the resultant reads i had

- espeonage repeatedly said i was playing like shit and assumed i would play better as town

- i stopped defending myself against wallpost cases made against me

- i literally claimed 1-shot janitor as my negative ability (which i'd softed by saying i would never EVER use it), and half the town treated that as me claiming scum in-thread

- my end-of-day reads list was full of psychological profiles on people (like strong townread on assemblerotws) and people assumed i was just making shit up

- 2 people who were scumreading me died N1

- i told everyone that my wagon was 100% town and they took this to mean "okay that means mathdino must be scum"

- i told everyone that the setup HAD to be 1 SK vs 3 scum and wasn't remotely 2:2 multiball and they were like "how the fuck could you possibly know that" and took my logic to be bullshit

[Mathdino]

- i complained about wallposts shitting up the game at the beginning and people got upset at me when i told them i wasn't going to read into them
also i ironically said "wallposts are all garbage" and old playerlists are apparently a 100% joke-free zone

- varsoon wanted someone he could trust (for his role), and i told him he could trust me. this was seen as scummy, so instead he "trusted" scum-pirate-mollie.

- i voteparked a lurker to pressure them into posting (and see who would jump on the wagon). they got replaced, the slot crucified me for it, and town didn't like the resultant reads i had

- espeonage repeatedly said i was playing like shit and assumed i would play better as town

- i stopped defending myself against wallpost cases made against me

- i literally claimed 1-shot janitor as my negative ability (which i'd softed by saying i would never EVER use it), and half the town treated that as me claiming scum in-thread

- my end-of-day reads list was full of psychological profiles on people (like strong townread on assemblerotws) and people assumed i was just making shit up

- 2 people who were scumreading me died N1

- i told everyone that my wagon was 100% town and they took this to mean "okay that means mathdino must be scum"

- i told everyone that the setup HAD to be 1 SK vs 3 scum and wasn't remotely 2:2 multiball and they were like "how the fuck could you possibly know that" and took my logic to be bullshit

Huh. Yeah. All that crappy shit you did. Don't do that next time. Maybe then I wouldn't be distracted with voting you.

cut it out

all the "crappy shit i did" was literally being right about almost every one of these points

my logic well understood by 2018 newbies on this site

your refusal to read into my posts because you didn't like me pressuring your slot is, again, not on me

you not once had constructive criticism of that communication, you just called my early play shit (it wasn't; half the game lurked out and i still caught one scum with the godel wagon) and then called my correct points nonsense

and then you called me the single most anti-town person in the game in both role and posting

you're not going to get better if you blame everyone else for being scummy to you and other players who don't know how to read people

explain exactly what about this post for example was shit

I'm a towntell reliant player.

Scum-Assembler in the situation where he wakes up and decides "hey I think the post I make is going to be one about how cool and pro-town I'm being reducing the effect of my negative ability!"
He doesn't go into the thread, say "Hey I found something" and just fucking leave without placing a vote. He's not a total idiot, and I'm making the assumption that he at least uses his one liner once-per-2-days posts to try to survive as scum.
Scum-Assembler feels like he'd go in and actually elaborate and make it clear that he's totally doing what's best for the town (rather than not explaining at all), and then posts a vote.

So yeah, towntell, he's just genuinely fuckin useless.

because it was 100% right and so far i have a good record of reading assemblerotws after my first game with him

[Mathdino]

GG everyone. Sorry about being so back and forth with you mathdino

you're good

you had the correct read on me, i can't really fault you for that side

my only advice is to not lynch solely mechanically when your reads indicate otherwise

if i were scum in that situation, i would obviously try to not claim in a way that
- removes my ability to actually freely use my janitor
- gets me lynched by people who are paranoid of janitors

[Mathdino]

I asked other people weigh in on this.
Which they didn't (and you guys wonder why I haven't been able to do anything).

I think I see your problem. I feel like you could have not posted the 'the venmar X varsoon exchange is garbage' because it didn't help anyone see they were town for it, and it helped people to scum read you when you were town. (Not that I would scumread you for that, it was the SK who pushed you based on a *wall* argument lol) Basically, you leaked fuel for others to attack you, and it was entirely town as you have seen. Less is more. You say you do much better at replacing in, and that shows that you need to improve your early game. I also think you could cut out what you say in the quote and other similar things, seems passive aggressive. It reminds me of writing advice, cut out the filler, only leave things that progress the story. Would this statement really be necessary to progress the game? (IE: Lynching your scum reads)

That's why I like to have short posts. The more I say, the more chances I give for others to misunderstand me. Do remember that communication between two people is a cycle of *Think > Speak > Listen > Think > Speak*. Meaning, you think something, so you say what you think you mean, and that comes out as some form of noise that the second person has to decipher, and yet doesn't exactly know what you mean simply from what you say. All this to say that, it's damn easy to misunderstand someone and the more words you give the easier it is to find something stupid from what you were saying and you are like 'why do people misinterpret what I'm saying in this way'. (Cuz I'm saying so much that they have so much leeway to mess it all up)

Of course, it seems in the past people feel I care way more about my image then I should, but it's something I kind of have to do otherwise if I just don't filter myself same thing would happen to me because i'm scatterbrained. Also, I will agree that some of the reasons for people to scum read you were dumb lolclaim. Some were based on your interaction, and I think people generally just don't like it when a person goes 'but what you did was even more bad then what I did' so I think if you just cut those things out and just explain yourself clearly you'll do better. Also if you are gonna push a wall garbage argument, push for short and nice clean posts at the same time. It would be more pro-town.

this is in large part fair

the "spill my guts" thing is a learned behaviour; when i premeditated all my posts in 2013 i would get lynched a LOT for it

but when i hipfire statements i learned that it pulled a shitton of towncred from the 2014 and onward crowd. helped a lot with charisma with a lot of younger players, but it obviously resulted in "that one guy" deathtunneling me every game, usually an older player
in playerlists like these, i drown for it

i more meant that 1v1 wallposts are garbage and i wanted them to stop, because in my experience people are bad at reading 1v1 wallposting and are more likely to come to inaccurate conclusions as a result

but yeah i often find that i don't really totally know what to do in early game, so i just force SOMETHING, get scumread for it, and dig myself out of it by being a content producing machine afterwards

i wasn't sure how to allocate my posts given the geriatric post restriction though, and there were 14 other players to talk about rather than just 8
i remember being really uncomfortable writing a lot of posts, felt like i was playing scum

[Mathdino]

i'm not not criticizing the town

but dino cares about personal improvememt and there was still a decent amount of stuff that could have been worked on here for him

I don't know if any of the others care so there's no point going "lol shoulda listened haHAA"

this is correct, KTS, elli and i have talked about this stuff before

[Mathdino]

varsoon pls dont lolhammer tho

[Mathdino]

too bad mastina video already won kodak so not point in nomming anything else

that's only if they stop taking the kodaks so seriously

the last few kodaks were really just "oh this group played really well this one time" when there used to be awards for exact scenarios like that

it's not fun to read back through that site history

but the N broke his thumb and the CDB video actually made me laugh and i hope they go that direction again

[Mathdino]

i mean i did drop towntells for my own meta + "scum would be stupid to play like this"
the problem was in doing so i guess i expected next level play
with the experienced playerlist i thought to myself "if i post enough content, they'll be able to read me easier, unlike those lurkers"

[Mathdino]

What do you mean by hipfire? Yeah, if you follow what Elli is saying, you know how to cater to the 2014 and on audience, you just need to figure out how to cater to the older audience. I think 1v1's will happen anyway, and what you said didn't stop it or convince others to stop, so it only hurt you and was neutral when it came to fulfilling what you were saying (stopping the walls). I think town can benefit from 1v1's if they use it as a chance to understand each other. (Oh, I thought you were scum but now I understand your mindset, I back off now) I think if it went on for too long, you would be right to say 'ok guys it's time to wrap up the wall wars now, it's going in circles'. I think you not knowing what to do in early game simply means that you can still experiment and figure out what you should do in early game. Think of it as a challenge. Otherwise, if you can't find anything, better to post nothing and take notes and observe and post when you have something you feel is worth while. (Of course, playing that way probably won't challenge you to improve yourself though, up to you though) Things I like to do in early game: Post early, find something scummy, and blow it out of proportion, and gain reactions, and create discussion and go from there. Then lay off and come back later. Wagon, etc. Maybe you feel like scum because you have to play differently then you are used to, or because you feel like you have to seem town when you're town? (Although seeming town as town is good )

We should hydra. I focus on early game, and you focus on middle/late game. You can tell me 'hey this guys it town' and i'm like why? and you're like 'JUST CUZ' and I'm like wut. Yeah. Anyway would be interesting.

hipfire basically means me typing posts without hitting backspace

as opposed to wallposting/effortposting (you can usually tell by punctuation/capitalisation)

i picked this style up from droog when he had a surprising amount of ability to be townread for it (and manage to push lynches

my early game town playbook is basically "find someone to early wagon who isn't clearly town and get reactions from them and other players who jump on or off the wagon". i think i mentioned earlier where that playbook doesnt account for "the guy just lurks the fuck out of D1 entirely" and i wasn't big on moving off the godel wagon since i didn't even have scumreads at the time, and i hate removing pressure votes before the pressure is applied
basically i didn't calibrate my play around those niche scenarios because i expected something different than what i should've

also while i'd love to take up players on their hydra offers, i ALWAYS get scumread in hydrae (i don't really deal well with dissonance?) and if i'm not, we basically get shot N1 every time
should play a game together normally and rand town together that sweet 53% of the time tbh

[Mathdino]

It was quite embarassing
i let soulja boy down

Also, Reckoner, you swore the ability I had that made my avatar into Goku served some purpose--what was it?

It's ok I've forgotten to submit stuff as scum before. I think I was also dayvig once and almost forgot I was dayvig too. Cept in that game I just shot a town neibhor.

i once forgot to shoot scum fakeclaiming my role as vigilante lol

still won though

[Mathdino]

@Ranmaru: when i have good reasons for townreading someone, almost everything else becomes invalid

i just have a decent feel for what posts scum doesn't make
i don't have a great feel for what posts TOWN doesn't make

i did this game by figuring my entire wagon was town except cooldog and extrapolating the gamestate from there
- 1 scum in gamma/hebichan
- retaliatory D2 wagon on me indicated scum pivot, so mollie
- third scum probably a lurker, and i was TRing skrewslot, assembleslot, etc, so scumhammer seemed most likely, so UT

had very little to do with scumhunting and had a lot to do with me forcefully rejecting lynchbaity reasons to scumread people in favour of very good singular reasons to townread people

that's usually where the "magic" comes from, and it's tough to share those reads because people are like "wow okay you have 1 piece of evidence ranmaru is town while i have a mountain of evidence ranmaru is scum" and it always defaults back to "well your townread could've just faked that, mathdino"

anyway interesting idea

i will consider it

[Mathdino]

...i was referencing 2 different posts...
one post wasn't brain dead (154)
and one post basically WAS brain dead (192)

The best I can say here not having seen his scum meta is that I'm guessing this is town just because he wouldn't make 192

This is the second sentence of your analysis and it makes no goddamn sense at all.

I'm a towntell reliant player.

Scum-Assembler in the situation where he wakes up and decides "hey I think the post I make is going to be one about how cool and pro-town I'm being reducing the effect of my negative ability!"
He doesn't go into the thread, say "Hey I found something" and just fucking leave without placing a vote. He's not a total idiot, and I'm making the assumption that he at least uses his one liner once-per-2-days posts to try to survive as scum.
Scum-Assembler feels like he'd go in and actually elaborate and make it clear that he's totally doing what's best for the town (rather than not explaining at all), and then posts a vote.

So yeah, towntell, he's just genuinely fuckin useless.

i think we got mixed up in which posts were responding to which

god maybe my issue this game was playing outside my range in terms of trying to effortpost to fit the activity guidelines

[Mathdino]

i got so frustrated when i legit couldn't figure out why people were scumreading me at a certain point

like i had no self defence in the face of no accusations other than being called a shit player

so i guess i just went with "yo i'm not a shit player and i'm not a lurker and that makes me better than 1/3 of the original playerlist all things considered"

[Mathdino]

@ranmaru: sometimes when i townbin too early i townbin scum haha

after i finish the PR tells article i'm 100% writing one on gamesolving and gamestate analysis

i typically flounder in a playerlist full of mostly unreadables (i have less confidence in my reads than i should tbh) like this one or mhsmith's game

usually just takes 1 or 2 flips to start unraveling the gamestate. if i can """flip""" 1 or 2 players as town on D1, then D1 just became as high information as D2 would've been.

also while i do like policy lynching, i hate policy lynching people just for being scummy or because i can't justify defending them

"scummy" is a construct

[Mathdino]

Yeah. I read your frustration wrong.

I'm pretty rusty and my return game had had very readable players so I guess I felt a bit cocky. I had read your frustration as scum-flailing because I reasoned that if you were town with your claimed role in a role-madness game you'd have a more resigned disposition. Like "eh, town's dumb and my role isn't much use so whatever".

i also admit that i got egotistical and this did not contribute well

i got this idea in my head that because of the incredible lurksack/tunnelly playerlist, town had no chance of winning after i was dead/no longer producing content

i never got to a point where i was genuinely preparing for my own death

[Mathdino]

oh yeah and psyche once did a study on Flailing as a scumtell