Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Gorkington]

i am a sheep in wolf clothing

[Gorkington]

or am i

[Gorkington]

vote: spiff

hes useless now that hes not paragon

[Gorkington]

noooooo
bring in the actually good head
(;

[Gorkington]

elli please get in here and help chara get it together
(:

[Gorkington]

i am also town

[Gorkington]

i am a sheep in wolf clothing

honestly this is just a wolf post like 50% of the time

those are pretty good odds

elli please get in here and help chara get it together
(:

what do you mean 'help chara get it together'?

chara hydra slipped

i hope you have better questions for me when i start actually playing the game

[Gorkington]

nero tentative town
creature tentative town
beeboy town

quick wagon is going to lead to annoying garbage which is probably not worth it on d1 regardless of whether he says things that come across as weird
so.
would be better if people just ignored him completely.

vote: brian

grey is also an acceptable gorkington approved counterwagon.

p-edit: why not?
why would anyone be worried about the possiblity of lategame scumcreature if creature is playing to town meta this early?

[Gorkington]

ausuka looked vaguely town in iso and i disagree with basically everything that tora is saying about ausuka on a lot of levels that probably arent worth actually fighting over.

tora can also be wrongtown too.
wow i have so many good reads.
look how much better i am than former town paragon spiffeh.
(:

[Gorkington]

ive called creature town on page 2 in a game before.

ive also seen scum feign paranoia of being buddied pretty often, its really not exactly an uncommon thing for scum to do.
so.
pretty baffled at anyone townreading brian skies of all players for that when hes not exactly green or bad at scum.

I mean you haven't listed me as a town read yet so you can't be that great

you voted me after i had posts in the game.
ur terrible

p-edit: hi im tora and im scumreading ausuka because i think the buddied comment is town while calling cheeky town for a post saying she doesnt like the buddied comment :V

pp-edit: maria are we allowed to lynch maria?

[Gorkington]

because my point was that you were townreading brian.
certainly warranted the personal attack though.
(:

[Gorkington]

tora i thought i was scum
shouldnt you call me scum instead of dumb?
:V

[Gorkington]

im only okay with lynching quick if we actually lynch quick and dont run him up, get 60 pages of noise because thats what happens when you wagon quick and then decide that we dont want to lynch him.

p-edit: i personally think brian's tone has been pretty uninvested so far in a way that could easily be scum trying to shrug off pressure.
i also think ausuka jumping around as much as they have already is pretty townish.

[Gorkington]

gork are you gonna tryhard and carry for most of the day
ty in advance

probably not.
im pretty fucked this week.

[Gorkington]

itll be alright.
its mostly good things [other than work], just busy.

hope your coming week is better than the last.

[Gorkington]

is the general idea that if you post a ton of things, people will townread you?
because that isnt really how the game works.

if anything im finding it increasingly difficult to ignore how many posts you have with such little scumhunting in them.

im literally looking for any kind of excuse to not scumread you so i dont have to deal with how annoying pushing you will be.
how about you give me one without me having to do that if youre town?
who is town? who is scum? why? why arent you pushing them instead of joking around?

[Gorkington]

yup. im scum who wants you to stop shitposting. vote and push me.

i would vastly prefer reading and parsing that over the overly jokey shit from the last 10 pages.

p-edit: there are aspects to grey's play that i would associate with townhim that im not seeing here and im not particularly interested in unpacking them right now.

[Gorkington]

im not interested in pushing grey or discussing why i think hes scum right now.
youre more than capable of trying to parse him yourself for now, but theres literally very little productive value in laying my hand out when itll be easier to lynch him if he doesnt towntell for most of today.
p-edit: where did i say i want people to sheep me on grey? am i voting him?

[Gorkington]

i dont have to wait to make the read.

it just makes it easier to push them if im not telling them why i think theyre scummy 24 hours into the game when they can just adjust if theyre scum if i tell them and if theyre town they have a chance to get into the game and start playing along my expectations.

pretty rocket science stuff.

[Gorkington]

and for "why mention it at all", implying the read is some basis for pressure.
and its also fun to say what my reads are even if its potentially not entirely the most optimal thing in the world.

p-edit: its my thought process which should explain why im doing what im doing.
:V

[Gorkington]

and youre literally saying "you dont have any basis for the read" and i just explained why i did. literally read your own words and read my words and process them with your brain.
actually think.
about the words.
with your brain cells.
before posting.
words.
in response.
to them.

[Gorkington]

i feel like im getting preemptively irritated at what feels like the beginning of you making a push on me thats going to make me frustrated.
lol.

i dont know why i actually asked you to push me when i knew it was going to make me feel really annoyed. what a silly goose i am.
:')

[Gorkington]

mulch also asked me to play because i gave off an aura of competence in team mafia thats not properly representative of how garbage i am.
(:

now i am also town

[Gorkington]

he started bouncing back after i engaged him and i didnt call him scum since then?
so
go away?

No, you're permaScum for trying to get TR.

oh no

[Gorkington]

maybe 10 pages was an overexaggeration but the last 4-5 pages quick was pretty clearly just completely shitposting and i) it was super irritating to read and ii) quick is jokey and useless as scum from my limited knowledge of his scumgame.

if i was trying to vote and push quick and not trying to get him to do things i could understand the complaint, but i feel like you just saw me push him and then ignored literally everything in terms of the actual context of what happened in that conversation.

[Gorkington]

and for "why mention it at all", implying the read is some basis for pressure.
and its also fun to say what my reads are even if its potentially not entirely the most optimal thing in the world.

p-edit: its my thought process which should explain why im doing what im doing.
:V

and youre literally saying "you dont have any basis for the read" and i just explained why i did. literally read your own words and read my words and process them with your brain.
actually think.
about the words.
with your brain cells.
before posting.
words.
in response.
to them.

neither of these posts are calling quick scum.

[Gorkington]

elli/chara could be scum.
i dont particularly want to go there unless im confident about it/i have a big townpile.

[Gorkington]

i was initially scumreading him, but wasnt really feeling it by mid-interaction. is it really that hard to read into the context of that from the way i was engaging him in that interaction?

on reread his initial posting was better than i thought it was, but hes had a lot of posts in the space since my catch-up last night where he was just literally fucking around and not scumhunting in between. like. his ausuka vote is really weak and its gross in a lot of ways to have that while just shitposting around.

[Gorkington]

you shouldnt apparently im scum because i had a scumread on quick and his entire ISO before engaging me was apparently obvtown.

[Gorkington]

how is it inaccurate? why do you keep pushing this point when from my POV on the catch-up he was literally shitposting while sitting on a non-vote?

if i was interested in casing quick i would have made points like that, but the engage was instead about trying to get him to say who he was townreading/scumreading/why/why he wasnt trying to push them.
read the push.
like.
its actually so annoying that it feels like youre not even trying to parse that interaction properly.

[Gorkington]

and if i wanted to seem like i was passionate/angry about things, i would have actually let myself get into an argument with quick?

do you really think that poking me like this is going to make me more readable than just letting me do my thing?

[Gorkington]

i dont even understand how you could claim ive done nothing. its been 24 hours and ive given like 10 reads.
-.-

[Gorkington]

what should i do creature? should i start ISOdive casing people 24 hours into the game? is that what it takes to live up to people's lofty expectations of my towngame? lol

[Gorkington]

vote: grey

[Gorkington]

spiff is possibly just being bad. theres some aspects to his push i get and other aspects that just require him to be barely even trying to parse me that im trying to reconcile. i also just dont understand why he would prioritize parsing me when im one of the easiest players to townbin when im town and invested. him calling me scum instead of trying to work with me before going that route just seems baffling to me.

grey can at least have a wagon for now after that last post.

[Gorkington]

fine.

vote: centipede

[Gorkington]

You're right I should just not point anything out that I find scummy because it's you

Also I literally asked you to explain why you were scum reading Quick (which I thought you were) in the very first post I called you out on so idk why you're saying I'm not trying to work with you

it feels way more like youre trying to pin some shit on me than trying to figure out why im thinking what im thinking?
if you just want to parse where my head is at, ask me questions, dont immediately call me scum and expect me not to be a defensive shithead about it. lol.

p-edit: i dont understand how you can look at that post and think "gork's intention here is to make quick look bad so he can get him lynched".
ive explained why it was the case in the context of his recent play and youre ignoring that to continue pushing this shitty justification for your push on me.
if i pushed you in mafiosi for reasons that you thought were wrong you would have called me shit at mafia and garbage. pardon me for just being incredibly annoyed and distracted by it.

[Gorkington]

like im actually baffled that youre still calling my interaction there scummy when it should be clear that from my POV quick seemed like he was doing nothing at the time.

[Gorkington]

it should be clear from the post that it was meant to be pressure to make you do serious shit instead of off-topic shitposting?

i would also have to be really angry to want to push a policy lynch on someone as town, and would probably never aim to go for that angle as scum because it pretty much never comes across as a viable reason for trying to lynch someone unless theyre actually spamming the game to a point that its unreadable and theyre unwilling to stop.

[Gorkington]

actually on reread maybe less clear than id intended. i think i let how annoyed i felt dictate the content of that post moreso than a genuine interest in trying to parse you.

p-edit: im very happy with a grey wagon if centipede starts being town.

pp-edit: i took that as a joke?

[Gorkington]

grey why is centipede town

[Gorkington]

grey why is centipede town

is it literally just wagon composition

[Gorkington]

im PRESSURINg you

[Gorkington]

vvulf is a pretty solid "oh fuck its end of day and we havent found a lynch" lynch.

[Gorkington]

do you feel relatively confident about your read on elli off of just that? or is it just the only thing youve felt about elli so far, so youre leaning town on him for that and the wagon comp?

[Gorkington]

maria can be scum.

[Gorkington]

ill try my best to be civil though.
its certainly true that i wanted that interaction with spiff to end and its certainly true that i was annoyed at the push on me.
why does it read like im scum doing those things rather than town?

[Gorkington]

because i called her scum just now and im scum.
guarantee thats the reason.

[Gorkington]

because he was reading the interaction wrong and continually refusing to acknowledge that and instead rejustifying his point?
i also pretty commonly hate being misread?

[Gorkington]

youve gotten pretty annoyed at people pushing you for reasons you felt were incorrect as town before, why would you expect someone else not to?

[Gorkington]

lol

[Gorkington]

I never said others couldn't but yours felt more like a complaint then frustration and that's why it's weird to me

i dont really understand how you would distinguish scum complaining vs town complaining here

[Gorkington]

i think given the follow-up interactions after that post you could probably concede that i was pretty clearly not just trying to set up a scumread on quick? unless you just think i immediately lost confidence in my ability to push it. lol.

[Gorkington]

i feel like this entire game is going to be miserable.

[Gorkington]

vote: vvulf

sure

[Gorkington]

ill be back in 48 hours to shitpost my way back into giving a shit about this game again.
cya then.

[Gorkington]

hi let me help everyone out here so this stops being a thing:
if im understanding correctly toranaga is using scum equity in the following sense -
if tchill is town then hes contributing to the scum wincon by being low content
if tchill is scum then hes contributing to the scum wincon by being scum

in this specific case tora thinks that tchill is also more likely to be scum than not.
the high scum equity in this case is that a lynch on him is much more likely to hurt the scum wincon than a lynch on someone that tora thinks is town or thinks is being overly protown at this point who might be scum
and leaving him alive is much more likely to help the scum wincon.

regardless of whether this is technically or technically not the correct definition of equity doesnt even matter anyway given that most people probably understand what toranaga is trying to say when hes saying it which makes it effectively colloquial so who cares?

[Gorkington]

i dont really get townreads on grey, even if my read there is mellowing towards null atm.
hes focusing on a lot of things that dont have much to do with scumhunting which feels like it could really easily be a scum strategy from him to generate content.

all of tnhead's scumreads out of panoptic arent really sitting well with me.
the reasoning for the townreads is pretty comprehensive which feels better, but he could just be properly assessing why people that he knows are town are town. :')

vote: tchill

choo choo

p-edit: does it really matter? >.>

[Gorkington]

Gork what are your thoughts on Spiffeh?

iuno kind of feel like i need a bit of a breather from trying to read him just so i can see him interact with some things that arent me being dumb about not liking being scumread.

kneejerk would be townlean atm.

[Gorkington]

Eh.

I'll just reset.

how long until we get some kind of comprehensive reads from you?

[Gorkington]

i dont really understand why youd keep escalating this by referring to him as a potato still.
probably better to just let this go and focus on other things?

[Gorkington]

-.-

[Gorkington]

will probably make you feel better if you just decide its not worth it.
mafia is already irritating enough.
dont need to make it worse by arguing over NAI off-topic shit

[Gorkington]

ya?

[Gorkington]

i feel like i just need to get off my chest that i feel really irritated that people are reading me badly and not even trying to engage me on their read in any kind of meaningful way.
which is probably hypocritical given my play earlier in this game but man it just feels like people are throwing reads at individual posts without any actual intention of trying to figure out if im actually scum in the process.

im going to make an active effort to not be a dick again this game.
so, if the hesitation on actually engaging me is that i might be a shithead about it, im going to try to be better, so go for it.
im gonna probably be dropping a lot of content this coming weekend if the cycle lasts that long.

better angles to approach me if you think im scum are to just ask me to do things.
or to poke me about the specifics of things ive done in some kind of substantive way.

if i keep getting "you are scum" posts im most likely just going to be distracted with wanting to call them annoying and i can do better things with my time in this game.
i would much rather get sorted now.

p-edit: theres a wagon on tchill?

[Gorkington]

like, i think it should be clear at this point that actively pushing for a counterwagon when tchill is unsorted is going to derail the momentum of the game.
the best use for my vote is putting it on the main wagon unless im townreading tchill, which im not.

i dont understand what you think i should be doing right now otherwise?
especially since ive made it clear i dont have much time for actively reading this game this week?

[Gorkington]

can you talk about why youre taking stances on the wagon instead of the player?

[Gorkington]

or it could be that tchill is low on content and pressure is a decent way of trying to enforce him following through on delivering that content?

youre acting like voting someone does nothing, but if i voted another player, the momentum on tchill could have staggered and then he would essentially be allowed to continue lurking if hes scum with no repercussions. its not as though its "magically" doing something, but it is reinforcing that i personally want to see content from him and until he delivers im continuing to vote him.

we could get into a big argument over whether votes actually cause pressure on players, but we're literally 8 days from deadline at this point. regardless of whether im town or scum, it shouldnt be hard to piece together that my intention isnt to lynch, but to cause pressure or to fake the intention to cause pressure. i doubt i would ever vote someone with the intent of getting a mislynch as scum at this stage of the game.

[Gorkington]

how often do you see someone get lynched 4+ days before deadline?

[Gorkington]

i said "choo choo". its basically an implication of "this is wagoning for the sake of the wagon". the follow-up question i had for tchill was asking for a timeline on his reads.

p-edit: on d1?

[Gorkington]

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

[Gorkington]

Hell yeah. I've had a game where I voted three people on day 1 and my vote never left scum.

If you think it's impossible to have good reads on day 1 you might just be bad.

i was talking to quick about whether he commonly sees early lynches on d1.

[Gorkington]

choochoo is hardly a reason to vote someone. You can't be serious here.

Yeah, happens a lot regardless of what day it is. Town is stupid.

choochoo as in "train" as in "all aboard the train".
i literally have a track record of saying it and drawing trains with people that are on wagons with me.
why else would i say it?

and i just dont think its a realistic interpretation to think that scum is always trying to immediately get a lynch. i feel like scum's priorities [especially early on when theres a long game ahead of them] are often a lot more oriented towards survival and protecting teammates?

[Gorkington]

but is the meta to really just grab each other's cocks and stroke until the deadline rolls around?

ya, would you care to join?

[Gorkington]

Gork I find it defeats the purpose of a pressure vote if you call it a pressure vote imo.

i mean if tchill makes more posts prolonging a catch-up instead of replacing out, then im a lot more likely to think hes scum trying to delay and then im more okay with lynching him?

elsewise the focus is on him specifically and he either has to post convincing content or get lynched.

[Gorkington]

chara has to give the illusion of centipede seeming town before they drop their guilty on town and have to deal with the aftermath tomorrow.
(;

[Gorkington]

chara has to give the illusion of centipede seeming town before they drop their guilty on town and have to deal with the aftermath tomorrow.
(;

Eh, sorry, centipede is like a 90-95% town read. Think about it, you have a hydra chat. Your buddy, an extremely experienced player who you respect a lot drops a cool read, but he's only half explained it and has to run. You're convinced you can't explain it as well as he can, it's too cool not to mention, but if you post it you'll wreck their awesome reveal.

I understand WHY he's doing this, I just don't think it's the right move.

its not like chara has no idea what happened in team mafia

[Gorkington]

uh?

[Gorkington]

i will eat my shorts if this is scumNero.

[Gorkington]

assuming tchill town and brig scum, i kind of feel like scum doesnt rock the boat here?
why post a case and vote someone, telling people to follow you if you have a wagon already happening on town?
if he were just saying "nero is scum" and not really trying to effort into derailing the momentum on tchill, i could see your point, but his neroCase is his biggest/most efforted post so far?
why is "brig is trying to line lynches up!" the first thought that comes to mind other than just the fact that its being pushed on you?

[Gorkington]

like, in order for you to think that brig is lining lynches in the manner youre suggesting, you basically have to think that the big efforted post he just made was him trying to set you up without actually getting you lynched today.
that he was just actively not trying to be convincing.
and i dont really think thats the case?

[Gorkington]

I feel in my heart that GreyIce and Bins are town

i feel literally the exact opposite.

[Gorkington]

i) im not pretending to have a good idea of what any scumteam would look like on d1 because im probably wrong about individual things, let alone linked things.
ii) my vote on tchill is literally stated as a pressure vote to get him to do things because hes not doing enough in the game yet.
iii) greyice literally just got off of tchill to vote you after admonishing someone for pushing a vanity vote.

[Gorkington]

the idea that i should stop pushing someone because im scumreading someone who has voted that person at some point is kind of ridiculous.
q.q

[Gorkington]

nero.
im literally the most overdefensive and melodramatic person in the world.

you have no idea how many posts ive not posted this game because ive stopped myself from being even more melodramatic than ive already been.
but i should probably just accept that youre going to scumread me all game at this point so whatever!

[Gorkington]

Can you explain why?

i feel gross about gi just completely ignoring my scumread on him, hes spent a lot of time not really trying to accomplish something specific and his pushes in particular just feel like they dont actually have anything behind them in a way that i would expect from town him.

with bins, i kind of felt like the buddying on me was undeserved at the time, especially since im apparently having a scummy game according to everyone and their grandma :')

[Gorkington]

creature i dont really understand how you can think this isnt basically nero from civ mafia.
his scumgame is so much more wooden than his towngame:
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=72052

[Gorkington]

like, town nero doesnt give a shit, is a stubborn butt and gets ridiculously overconfident about reads for reasoning that looks ridiculous in a way that he just doesnt as scum.
its literally night and day.

[Gorkington]

youll probably townbin him if you do.
real folk blues reboot is also a good bit of homework for nero's scumgame:
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=71688

[Gorkington]

in other news, it does legitimately feel like tchill is actively avoiding the game now.

[Gorkington]

spiff how excited are you to lynch low content lurker tchill?

[Gorkington]

dont worry mulch i can do the flips for you

[Gorkington]

if tchill is actively lurking out this cycle then i might be okay with wrapping things up earlier?

i wouldnt want a lynch before he gets into prod territory but if he starts feigning posting again with a prod dodge when hes under pressure instead of providing content or replacing out then im not gonna dig my heels just for the sake of running the clock in case something happens.

my mindset has been "use all of the time in a cycle" for forever, but the more i play, the more i kind of feel like its asking for a more dramatic and unpleasant game. i feel like especially with dragging things out with large themes, people get antsy, anxious and annoyed and eventually the fighting gets shittier and shittier until people say garbage that they regret.

i also think forcing people to give a big YES or NO to a wagon is super useful information to go back on, so forcing this kind of decision earlier rather than later when theres a deadline people can use as an excuse is a pretty solid way of focusing the content of the game in a useful/meaningful way.

p-edit: ya i was sad about that too.

[Gorkington]

the comment itself was a joke though.

[Gorkington]

and i mean frankly, if centipede has a "guilty" and theyre being this inactive i really dont see the point in holding it back.
so, i would probably advocate for that being outted sooner if theyre just sitting on it doing nothing.

[Gorkington]

who will call people potatoes now?
):

[Gorkington]

omg i get to feel validated with that immediate reaction to her calling me scum now!
yay!

[Gorkington]

man if maria is scum then mafia is literally broken.
jesus elli.
lol

[Gorkington]

im glad that i dont feel animosity towards you anymore
other than the fact that you fucking suck

[Gorkington]

i mean.
spiff you realize that hes alleging that hes catching maria the same way he caught mastina in inventions mafia, right?

[Gorkington]

elli apparently made a program that can enter in people's play in various games and determine if theyre scum based on it

[Gorkington]

well, given that i kind of think youre scum right now, it would certainly be in your best interest to discredit such a thing if maria is scum, wouldnt it?

[Gorkington]

how would it constitute cheating?
like
certainly it kind of ruins the spirit of the game
but
theres nothing that would explicitly block it atm?

idk how it works.
i think elli not explaining it is kind of the point.
people could find ways to adjust around it and the ambiguity of it makes it possible to still argue against it/argue that elli is potentially scum lying about what the result is.

[Gorkington]

booooooooooooooo
lack of game breaking machine is boring.

[Gorkington]

@chara

, if you and elli are scumreading maria and its just based on regular scumhunting, can we get some unpacked reasoning then as to why?

2. MariaR [Non-Indicative -> Townlean]

can you walk me through why you upgraded maria here?
and where your head is currently at on her play in general?

im busy basically every night for the rest of this week, so isodives are pretty much out of the question.
but if someone has free time and either
i) wants me to think that theyre cool
ii) wants free townpoints
iii) wants to do something super neat

i would be super happy if someone could pull some meta for tchill when hes getting pushed as town and scum.
i know team mafia whiteflag is an easy example of town him getting put into the gallows pretty early on,
so would be pretty interested in seeing anyone else's assessment of whether his performance here looks like an extension of and/or similiar to his play here.

dont really know what to make of his play since coming back. hes just kind of flailing about at the people pushing him which is honestly pretty tiring to read.
i would much rather him focus on trying to push people as scum if he is town here. would probably make him easier to read on that front.

[Gorkington]

Hey, Nero, why act like you're not going to get lynched today?

Also, I really can't stand this Tchill guy, I'm still cool with offing him.

-ObserVed

i think panoptic is my biggest scumread. >.>

[Gorkington]

do you believe any scumread that tn has been pushing this game?
his reasoning for tchill is basically the following:
i) "Do something to help town if you ever want to get off this list"
ii) "I've fully scumclaimed with gif related before, so, ah, I'm really feeling like there's scum between tortuga and nochill." - which basically means because tora posted a gif joking about scumclaiming, that means for some reason one of tchill and tora is scum? which really makes absolutely no sense.
iii) "I mean, I wanna lynch it just for this kinda thing lol
anyone who ends a post with lol is scum in my book lol"

for him to then say:

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

just feels like such a ridiculous level of confidence for someone who is pushing someone based on them not doing enough, tora doing something which is 100% independent of tchill which should not be influencing his read whatsoever and an awkward post. i just dont really believe that he would be that confident and i feel like ii) and iii) are probably just complete scum bullshit.

Scumreads
11. GreyICE (largely based on personal dislike, but is also based in difference in behavior between this game and games where GreyICE replaced into townslots)

Strong Scumreads
9. Quick (kicking up a huge fuss in the thread over nothing and being a distraction from any and all play, trying to claim towncred by pretending to not notice Mafia Gunner's inability to be voted, and overall annoyance with playstyle)

its also really weird that his main justification for both of these reads is openly "i dislike both of these players".

i feel like i could pick apart a ton of other things if i had more time.
but i also feel like his reaction to centipede is really likely scum and probably links him to maria.
i think he would protest more as town if the link was wrong once it was pointed out too. instead he just kind of awkwardly shrugged it off when he was pretty overly annoyed by the premise of the maria read in the first place.

[Gorkington]

do you feel confident in maria being scum independent of elli's read on her?

[Gorkington]

@chara

, can you walk me through grey is one of your top townreads like im dumb?

[Gorkington]

spiff can you expand on where your head is at right now wrt pan and grey?

[Gorkington]

didnt you say that you thought centipede was genuinely scummy though?

[Gorkington]

vote: pan

obaby its time for a scum wagon.

[Gorkington]

ii) "I've fully scumclaimed with gif related before, so, ah, I'm really feeling like there's scum between tortuga and nochill." - which basically means because tora posted a gif joking about scumclaiming, that means for some reason one of tchill and tora is scum? which really makes absolutely no sense.

spiff i honestly think this point alone is worth a pan wagon.

theres no reason he should be adding fuel onto tchill for this and it just doesnt seem like something that anyone would actually genuinely believe.

[Gorkington]

actually i might be dumb, he might just be saying both are scum for different reasons.
context of previous post kind of makes that more likely.

his confidence level does not match his reasoning though.
>.>

[Gorkington]

kind of think scummaria goes for claim reasons to defend herself rather than calling out elli's push.

[Gorkington]

i mean im still more down to lynch panoptic atm
if maria doesnt want to fight people pushing her then im not going to force a wagon on her when its going to be difficult when i know for a fact i can make a pan wagon and i feel more confident about it

so there!

[Gorkington]

see you have to be confident townleader elli for 7 people to sheep you
hard to do that when youre telling me to do your job for you all the time (:

p-edit: i mean.
lol.
yeah.

[Gorkington]

vote: maria

okay sure if youre gonna keep me in your scumpile like that when i have a mountain of shit you could be reassessing on.
lets get the lynch for elli.

[Gorkington]

bins can be town if maria flips scum.

[Gorkington]

right. because doubtcasting that you would be still scumreading me at this point is me calling you town.

[Gorkington]

youve literally been sitting on "gork wouldnt be this overdramatic or aggressive as town!" for ages when its literally my MO and youve seen it as my MO as town.
ive literally shoved wagons on you as town and have been ridiculously melodramatic about it. you being this terrible at reading what i do literally every game when youve never had this kind of reaction to it before just looks super garbage.

[Gorkington]

Why do you feel like I should be townreading you rn
Pedit: I have no memory of this ever happening nor do I remember this happening

because im easy to read? and this is how i play every game? and you dont misread me when i play like this when youre town? real folk blues. alisae's mish mash theme game. i know there are others.

[Gorkington]

nero is town too

[Gorkington]

bins is probably town via extension of maria probably being scum?

[Gorkington]

lmfao so im childish but im scum? who's talking to town now again?
lol do it.
youre dead if youre shooting me

[Gorkington]

do not let maria squirm out of using a dayvig if she shoots me

[Gorkington]

really feel like this is arcade pals kidney mafia maria.

[Gorkington]

hey mariaaaaa
you should let me know when youre here

[Gorkington]

Gork and Brian I like you dudes. Don't be scummy. Vote today or point out my flawed logic in this 1v1 speed wagon race. Actually just vote! My logic is flawless mwahaha.

omg who do you think i should vote for do you think

[Gorkington]

are we lynching centipede?

[Gorkington]

are we voting tchill
i dont want cheeky to call me scum for making the wrong vote
S:

[Gorkington]

i already do that though

[Gorkington]

its probably like 7-8 now

[Gorkington]

apparently nobody is actually reading the game

[Gorkington]

and nah my townreads are just me being good at mafia.

oh god its almost like hes already said this

[Gorkington]

actually i might be dumb, he might just be saying both are scum for different reasons.
context of previous post kind of makes that more likely.

his confidence level does not match his reasoning though.
>.>

Because it's a blatant misrep

:V
:V
:V
:V
V:V:V
V:
V:

i also think its pretty fucking hot garbage that youre now coming back to respond to the case -
without actually responding to it at all, by just trying to discredit it with a weird roundabout "oh well his one reason is shit and wrong and i never engaged him on it to explain why its wrong so hes null i guess".
literally the worst way you could have responded to me scumreading you.

The reasons for most of my reads are weak because most of my reads are weak.



Petit obviously that was sarcasm as I'm now voting someone else

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

youre really walking this back as sarcasm? because it really does not read that way at all.

vote: panopticon

i want this.
i want this in my fucking bones.
theres literally nothing tn is doing thats town.

and i have to be honest, like, i wouldnt be doing my due diligence here if i just flat out trusted elli [and i kind of feel like he should also be seeing panopticon as an obvious buddy option here/it makes me nervous that he doesnt] and if im being even more honest, i was kind of putting a voice in a corner at the back of my mind that was saying that i cant really confidently read her in general.

most of tn's meta sprawls back a few years so theres some level of doubt to be had, but man it just looks so much like this is his scumgame rather than his towngame:
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=65370 [unsigned posts are him]
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=66095

and i think the best reason i can give is that scumtn talks at people when hes scumreading them.
and towntn just tries to get them lynched.

tn is just talking at people in this game.
hes not trying to sort people.
theres nothing genuine about anything hes doing.

theres nothing genuine about doubtcasting someone because theyre scumreading something your hydra partner did because you didnt post it.
theres nothing genuine about anything hes pushed on tchill.
and theres especially nothing genuine about him trying to walk back his read there as not being strong when hes indicated anything but the contrary.

the bonus here is that elli can still be right and pan can still be scum because pan's reaction to elli's program is really really fucking scummy if maria is scum.

theres also some part of me that doesnt like that a maria wagon based entirely on elli's rep and cheeky saying "UR SCUM IF U DONT" basically gives all of these players an excuse to jump on the wagon without actually putting anything behind their vote, which makes the wagon especially hard to hold anyone accountable to that isnt elli on d2 if it flips town.

[Gorkington]

it makes me sad that you just deflated how excited i was about pushing panoptic with one post that was likely an afterthought for you to make.
lol.

[Gorkington]

it was admittedly a pretty lazy meta job.
i just really really dont feel like hes town
q.q

zzzzzzzzz

vote: maria

[Gorkington]

i cant tell whats more slick, your scumgame, or your towngame
(god i really hope youre town here elli q.q)

[Gorkington]

i do kind of think that if maria had some kind of strong PR like shes saying she would be way more angry at the push on her.

spiff, i know you were sk so you didnt really care in kidney mafia, but does it not kind of feel like maria's trying to use her claim as a shield in the same kind of way that arcade pals did there?

[Gorkington]

shes referring to chesskid's ISO.
its not really important because elli isnt alleging to be using the program shes referring to here. i think elli's got a pretty solid track record for sniffing out scum and aside from a few small things that are bugging me i kind of overly think hes town atm?

or at least definitely more town than maria
and i dont think he tanks his rep in this game in a trade for maria.

and i also dont think he tanks his rep in this game as town if he isnt relatively confident about it.
unless you have a really solid idea of who scum is beyond him, i think maria's probably the right call here?

[Gorkington]

elli isnt using it here, so i dont know why you keep telling people that its important that we sheep based on inventions mafia?

[Gorkington]

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

:V
:V
:V

[Gorkington]

honestly dude, the reality is I have a meta tell on her that I'm confident in, so it'd be a lot more helpful if you help me me look for her buddies because I

am

fairly lost with regards to that atm.

pretty sure its a manually derived meta tell.

[Gorkington]

Tchill13 is probably town.

can i get some words on this?

[Gorkington]

u know its a joke right

boo get off the stage

[Gorkington]

i wonder if im the 0.000001%
(:

[Gorkington]

this feels like c9++ townbins.

[Gorkington]

you defending panopticon reminds me of you defending mykonian.
(:

[Gorkington]

what if theres at least two scum in ausuka/maria?

[Gorkington]

ausuka im gonna need you to explain to me why you think tchill is lockscum like im 2 years old.
at least 2-3 concise and precise reasons why you think so.
if im not convinced that you believe that tchill is scum then you can take a trip to the bottom of my readlist capiche?

[Gorkington]

Gork made a comment about them earlier that was weird to me. Asked him to clarify a couple times but never did.

i meant to reply to it at one point but my attention span sucks.
if by "wasnt this based on this one point?" you meant "wasnt this one part of a multi faceted case you were pushing?",
then,
yes.
it was vaguely related to me thinking pan's resistance to the "guilty" as a concept was a roundabout way of trying to discredit the push on maria without taking a stance on it directly.

[Gorkington]

smugdragon

[Gorkington]

nope

[Gorkington]

1. his early hop on centipede is very scummy.
2. I've played with town!tchill and this feels wildly different in many ways.
3. posts like 1217, 1273, and 1277 sound really fake. 1471 also sounds really off to me tonally.
4. his reasoning for scumreading me has jumped around from "the little I've seen seems scum-motivated" to "I've got scum-vibes" and then saying that I'm scum for being on some 3-player wagons.
5. when I confront him about this, he says that these are all the same thing.
6. 1792 is complete bullshit. he basically dodges the actual question by saying "you're getting buddied!!!" and then says me townreading hopkirk means I'm brushing him off.
7. there was a good wagon on Tchill and it kinda just completely dissapeared because ???

i) elaborate on why it was scummy

ii) elaborate on why he feels wildly different in many ways.
examples of differences with literal comparisons to other games would be ideal here.

iii) how confident are you that he doesnt make fake sounding posts as town?

iv) first two kind of seem like the same thing and more of a vague reference to a scumread without reasoning and the latter is something specific, so i dont really see why hes scum for non-specifically at first feeling like youre scum and then actually pushing something specific but different at another point?

v) quote this?

vi) whats the question that hes dodging?
i feel like youre overly simplifying the contents of the post at the end here. you really think hes just saying that? because i feel like the added context of whatever floral mafia is gives weight to whatever argument hes trying to make and youre kind of ignoring that to misrep his position into something thats easier to call scum?

vii) this is bad. if youre town you should probably have a better capacity for understanding what happened to cause the tchill wagon to fall apart.
trying to insinuate that the tchill wagon stopped because his scumbuddies who were bussing him jumped off is ignoring a ton of context with what happened with centipede/maria/cheeky/etc.
this is really really weak analysis yo.

[Gorkington]

@pan

, your signing gimmick is really hard to parse.
can you consider switching it?
ive been thinking that varsoon was just not signing his posts and didnt realize that youre basically using almost the same word for both of your signatures.

My gut reads aren't good.

give me an example of any other towngame of yours ever where youve expressed the sentiment that you dont want to follow your reads because you think your gut is bad.

I'm gonna be honest, I lost it in the sea of bullshit spam. Sorry.

A good part of Girls case on me is varsoon mending about scumclaiming with a gif. You read that right, he's reading me based in part on what someone else said.

~tn5421

oh
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
do explain how you saw the case but then lost it

I rolled scum a very disproportionate amount of times so my town game is actually really weak

i really dont think this would be a factor in whether tn's reads/pushes would come across as genuine.

There's also nothing genuine about attributing one player's play to another, hydra or not.

this is so bad.
that you actually think you can push that someone would intentionally mix up hydra partners when youre basically signing the exact same thing
just to try to paint you specifically as scummy when theres basically 0 motivation to do so.
what would i be trying to gain by mixing up you and varsoon on purpose?
im calling hard bullshit that you actually think this.

Really? So I don't push policy lynches day one? And you claim to have ISO'd me?

REALLY?

(policy: lurk; policy: spam; policy: blatant antitown; policy: dumbtelling)

dont understand what this has to do with anything?

[Gorkington]

ive got some homework for this game for this weekend.
after im done it im in for some hardpushing.

[Gorkington]

also, can you push a case if you are going to shout at people to vote him?
this game's pretty low on content right now and theres just a lot of people calling people town/scum when we really need to be getting into nitty gritty if we want lynches to actually happen and not have the game just devolve into shouting matches/noise?

[Gorkington]

ask me again in 48 hours.

[Gorkington]

Early with limited posts I could have been either way.
When he came back his posts was free flowing. I guess that’s how I would describe it. He’s not really caring about D1 and wants to move onto the next day. He’s not trying to force something.

how many times have you played with town/scum tchill before?

[Gorkington]

theres actually another really obvious reason that her crumb is probably bullshit.

[Gorkington]

hello my name is maria and i have a strong power role that can apparently clear people. im going to tell people im using it. instead of just using it.

the entire fiasco of making a big deal of her getting a result is super unnecessary as town and paints a target on herself that i doubt she would actually want to have as town with a role like that when shes insinuated that she needs to make it until d2.

p-edit: ...?

[Gorkington]

why are you betting on thor???
hes really your strongest townread here?

[Gorkington]

or we could lynch maria and if she flips scum [which she probably will] then centipede is probably dead tonight anyways?

[Gorkington]

hello my name is maria and i have a strong power role that can apparently clear people. im going to tell people im using it. instead of just using it.

the entire fiasco of making a big deal of her getting a result is super unnecessary as town and paints a target on herself that i doubt she would actually want to have as town with a role like that when shes insinuated that she needs to make it until d2.

id love for someone to convince me why im wrong on this.
or we can keep doing the "maria is town for some reason" game because thats fun.

[Gorkington]

@creature:

Okay made up my mind on what I'm doing.

Cya later Gork

Alright now that that's done.
Give me 1 more day and then we're all set.
Pedit: Who said anything about shooting?

I'll check back on this later~

Gork is town.

p-edit: quick.
im at my limit for people's gutreads.
if you tell me someone is town or scum for basically no reason again im just ignoring you the rest of today.

[Gorkington]

like could you do something more opposite of what i asked for? i asked for people to substantively engage me here and you literally just plopped another garbage gutread in front of me.
could you just.
not do that?

we're 90 pages in.
use your big words to actually explain why people are town or scum or i literally dont give a shit.

[Gorkington]

id love for someone to convince me why im wrong on this.

did you think i was going to be convinced that i had nothing to worry about on maria because you told me that you think shes done nothing AI?

[Gorkington]

chara can you talk at my face about whether you were scumreading maria independently of elli and if so, why?

[Gorkington]

also can you talk about the posts from maria/bins that you felt were linking them together?

[Gorkington]

is brigand scum?

[Gorkington]

VOTE: Panoptican

Serious vote. We're lynching here today.

VOTE: panoptican

VOTE: Pan

why are these better than brig's vote?
why did you vote alongside them if you think naked votes like that are troubling?

[Gorkington]

could poke at what aspects of the reasons brig likes/wants to sheep and then try to pull them apart if you think that maria isnt the best lynch instead of just saying that we shouldnt do it? you get a chance to pull apart brig's mindset here if you do and a chance to derail momentum on maria if its genuinely a bad lynch for right now.

otherwise we're just inflating the postcount with more "this person is a bad lynch!" "this person is a good lynch!" conversation, which is honestly just pretty tedious and pointless.
im not going to unvote maria because you point at votes on maria that you think are bad.
maria's play stands regardless of what other people do with it.
you should be attacking why things with maria are NAI rather than just telling us that they are.

[Gorkington]

except i gave reasons and you ignored them to just tell me that maria is nai. so. no?

[Gorkington]

except i gave reasons and you ignored them to just tell me that maria is nai. so. no?

I still feel pretty much everything Maria has done is NAI. We can find a better lynch than that.

im telling you this one more time. so you have literally no excuse if you ignore it again and i will feel justified in just ignoring what you have to say. if you dont directly address the internal logic and just say that something is NAI. and thats all you say. and you dont explain why people are wrong. then you are not doing anything. i really dont care about what you feel. you arent an authority on lynching people that gets people to listen to you just because you feel something. if you want maria lynch to not happen you have to actually explain why other lynches are better or explain why the reasons that people think she is scummy are wrong and are just nai. every post you make that isnt doing that might as well be literally blank but it is accomplishing the same level of progress within the game.

[Gorkington]

hello my name is maria and i have a strong power role that can apparently clear people. im going to tell people im using it. instead of just using it.

the entire fiasco of making a big deal of her getting a result is super unnecessary as town and paints a target on herself that i doubt she would actually want to have as town with a role like that when shes insinuated that she needs to make it until d2.

i feel like there are other points that spiff has made that youve also been completely ignoring?
like, i dont get why youre very clearly intentionally avoiding actually directly debunking aspects of the case instead of just spamming the game telling people to stop voting her.
are you just annoyed that it feels like people are sheeping elli and this is an ego thing? or what?

[Gorkington]

yeah im scumreading her because she claimed thats the reason those are the words in that post. gj quick. gj reading. man. gj. multiple gjs.

[Gorkington]

the internal motivations to claim do not. make. sense. for. her. at all. with what shes softing.

[Gorkington]

5. Bins

this is a good one on your list

[Gorkington]

that is an absolutely baffling sentiment for reasons that should be obvious to you.

[Gorkington]

elli are you sure pan isnt scum
cause varsoon also seems like scum to me
s:

[Gorkington]

i am a phone right now
gimme a few hours
planning on effortinf at this game soon

[Gorkington]

Nah, when I flip town,

I don't have to play this game with you baddies anymore

is quick really a baddie if you think hes scum??

[Gorkington]

But hey, maybe elli can run his literal cheat machine and produce an inno on me and you chumps can believe in that instead of me obv-towning for 100 pages.
I can't fathom

you know what would be great

if you were to try to convince us someone else is scum

instead of just making overdramatic posts like this

[Gorkington]

do you have an overarching set of reasons for feeling like cheeky/tchill/tora are scum that you could try to run through?

why are you incredulous about people taking time to come around on maria if it also took you a long time to come around on her as well?

[Gorkington]

i mean, giving reasons and walking through your thought process is a big factor in whether people can properly sort you.
if youre just calling people baddies and ateing then nobody is going to bother trying to sort you and just stick with the common consensus of some of your stuff seeming scummy from earlier?

[Gorkington]

i feel like
the logic of
"ive done this as scum before"
is no where near as ironclad as youre implying it is.
and theres so much more to tora's ISO than just that one post that i feel like you can be parsing if you think hes scum to try to make your read stronger/push a stronger case on him?

[Gorkington]

With Cheeky, there's absolutely no way I see town playing corraling for the guilty that hard. It felt manufactured to me.

context:
in inventions mafia
chesskid told everyone that elli has a program which he can use to determine metatells for things people exclusively do in their scumgame/towngame.
chesskid used this program to get scum-mastina lynched and effectively destroy the scumteam in that game.
cheeky was in that game.

if cheeky thought that elli was using that program again here, theres no reason to disbelieve the way she pushed it, especially when she literally deflated when she realized that elli wasnt using the program here:

...I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time. I'm going to go die somewhere dark and quiet now.

[Gorkington]

i frankly think that tora's iso is pretty town. [and thats really the universal consensus in this game]
im pretty confused as to why youre putting so much weight in a single gif usage.
do you really think its that unlikely that town does that there?

also do you have any towngames as of late where youve expressed this kind of "i dont want to put effort into trying to get people i think are scum lynched/i dont want to isodive and confbias this person as scum" sentiment?

[Gorkington]

overall i kind of feel like tchill is more likely town than not based on non-lazyIsodive and lazyMetadive [which i will follow up on if i have enough motivation/time/effort to give this game after i get through some other priorities]

there might be a towntell that hes dropped but i need to check a lot more games to really make sure that im not blowing hot air on it.
theres some other small things from general trends in his meta that i think line this up closer with his towngame than his scumgame too, but i definitely need to throw more effort at it to actually be confident about it and my attention span is really diminished atm so thats definitely not happening this morning.

things i like from his iso:

feels good that hes saying that he might have forgotten the reasoning he had for disliking CS earlygame given that hes now townreading him. i think the easy scum reaction would be to bullshit a reaction and i think its believable that townHim would have honestly forgotten the reasoning given the context for it would be super far removed for him.
he has a decent amount of productive questioning in his midD1 play.
he reiterated a push for trying to determine who was sitting where on the wagons after someone had called it scummy which makes it feel more real and i think scumHim would have either dropped it or ran with it too much to try to fake generating content.
saying he likes centipede's scumreads when theyre just ausuka and maria.

questionableish things:

him voting maria after saying that he thinks shes NAI just because cheeky is telling people to.
his scumgame isnt really that bad. he was pretty damn engaged/active, made it to endgame and did some pretty damn ballsy things.

[Gorkington]

he was pretty damn engaged/active, made it to endgame and did some pretty damn ballsy things.

*in the game i read.
i shouldnt post when im this tired zzzzzz.

[Gorkington]

sup

Is Creature lock town yet?

I am actually a villager lol

Yes, he is.

Excellent

Is there a way to disable this view your submitted message screen and direct straight back to the thread? Heh

I saw Beeboy was on the roster who else do I know here

hey there bud.
lets take it easy with the post count k?
this is a big game, theres no reason to make it bigger for no reason.

creature is town so far.

[Gorkington]

varsoon acting like this kind of makes me a little hesitant because it reminds me a little of advanced wars where he was equally ridiculously obnoxious about getting pushed and ive never seem him be like this as scum getting pushed

On this not I'm kind of annoyed that Centipede basically stopped posting altogether and Gorkington hasn't given any indication of his scum reads after the Maria flip and would like them both to rectify that

grey/pan/ausuka would be my best guesses but im not particularly confident about it right now
:/

[Gorkington]

youre being equally obnoxious here.
like.
if youre town and youre this mad, take it the fuck down a notch.

if youre scum, this is a super obnoxious strategy to get yourself townread.
please also stop if this is the case.

[Gorkington]

but I still think that there's at least 2 scum on my wagon

its entirely possible.
its scum's goal to mislynch people though.
its what their goal is in this game.
getting that upset about it
i) doesnt accomplish anything
ii) makes you easier to push on merits of "this person is just flailing/antitown"
iii) is distracting which is probably letting other players fly under the radar
if youre town just like, take a breather, walk away, think about how its just a game and remember that everyone is just trying to accomplish a wincon here.

Pan literally votes for someone who is "an annoyance" over someone that is 50/50 scum based on the "slip" that obviously wasn't a slip from above. After this post, there is no read or talk about Maria from this slot ever again. They took the easiest excuse they could find to not vote for Maria, and vote/shade all her potential counter wagons.

give me a little time to dive some varsoon scumgames to see if i can find him doing something like this at any point.
theres just a big part of me thats worried that tn and varsoon are tripping over themselves really hard as town here.

[Gorkington]

and elli/chara thinking that too is giving me pause.

[Gorkington]

Gork did you read my case-thing from last page? Tn’s vote progression and completely ignoring Maria makes no sense given his stated “read” on her

im gonna feel dumb as fuck if im letting scumthem off the hook here, but is tn getting frazzled by being pushed by brian and not wanting to lynch maria being more about annoyance with the elli program thing a possible explanation?

@varsoon

, if youre still around, can you give me any examples of towngames where youve gotten this frustrated at being pushed?
3+ games would be an ideal sample for me to peruse.

[Gorkington]

im gonna follow my dreams for now

vote: greyICE

[Gorkington]

if i had the time to case him, i would.
it was the second thing on my to-do list today and then i fell asleep for three hours. :')

and i dont think trying to articulate my feelings in a vague sense is going to be productive and i know for a fact that i dont really have the time to do a hard dive on him in the next two days.
i just dont feel like hes town.
and his posts around maria are plausibly buddy interactions.

p-edit: i more mean that like, does it not seem possible that he votes other things in spite of knowing that maria is maybe more likely scum out of unstated spite?

[Gorkington]

plus look at this delicious wagon spiff.
me, nero and creature.
thats like a town goldmine.
C: