Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Hopkirk]

‘do NOT talk to dead players’ : does this mean people shouldn’t talk to me if I’m dead inside?
Mafia gunner sounds like it’s a wolf.
Has anyone seen anti-claim mechanics used before?

VOTE: Ausuka ]/vote]

[Hopkirk]

whoops

VOTE: Ausuka

[Hopkirk]

Has anyone seen anti-claim mechanics used before?

It's usually scum "if you correctly guess X's ability, you can vig him/her"

How many shots did that one have?


It is hard to argue if the VC itself wants us to vote Cheeky.

VOTE: Centipede syndrome

[Hopkirk]

Why aren't you interested in my explination.

[Hopkirk]

you didn't give one, Hopkirk. <3
Panopticon presented an interaction.

You don't townread me on meta already?

So Mulch sent me my role PM in a spoiler tag, and I decided not to open it. I'm probably town, but just in case, can the scum tell me their names so I know not to lynch them until I open the box?

I'll give you one chance to admit this is untrue.

i am also town

I'd rather still not say what my alignment is.

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

These are good.

If the same mechanics hold I think that the town gunner shouldn't ever actually vote, since the Gunner is the most valuable townie.
Also they should probably just shoot leading wagons.

It sounds like they're different- unless I missed part of the opening where it said those roles belong to people (plus they don't count for parity here right?)

[Hopkirk]

@Ausuka: why town Creature?

[Hopkirk]

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

These are good.

Why is this good?

Yes.

[Hopkirk]

Voting scum isn't a good way to find scum.
We've already found scum.
The problem is voting them.

[Hopkirk]

Now that's what i call thinking outsie the box.

[Hopkirk]

I reserve the right to vote brian.

VOTE: The Worst

[Hopkirk]

Voting scum isn't a good way to find scum.
We've already found scum.
The problem is voting them.

Could you self vote and speed things up?

You are 100% confirmed scum to me right now. We need to 1v1. Anyone who votes outside of us from this point on is confirmed wolf. On a scale of one to infinity, you are infinitly scum. You need to flip to death and I will

pillage

your corpse for the towncred that will naturally follow from me being so so right about how terrible a thing you are. That's right, a thing, not a person. You can try and hide it all you want, but everyone with

eyes

can BLATENTLY see exactly what you are doing here. It makes me sick to even be having to case you for being obvious scum here. Anyone who isn't voting for Grey here should take a moment to consider whether they read their role pms wrong, because being scum is literally the only way you couldn't see exactly what kind of

SICK

game Greyice is trying to play here. The scum/wolf stench is so strong I can bearly bear actually voting with him. The association with that much scum in one place makes me feel like scum too. You are the scum

abyss

and even a glance makes me feel worse, let alone a gaze. The scumminess radiating from you in every direction makes me want to lynch you, and the people above and below you in the playerlist. I am shocked and appalled that you haven't been either lynched, or vigged already. It is simply inconcievable that you, scum incarnate, are still here right now.

They'll never suspect this

really is

a mutual hard bus.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Hopkirk

Baaah.

Can you tell me three people you town read, excepting myself?

[Hopkirk]

we should mass fakeclaim to break the settup

I claim sick eye pillager as obviously softed by my above post. My win condition involves collecting eyes.

[Hopkirk]

@Greyice: any issue with me exposing your lie though?

[Hopkirk]

How much have you read Cheeky?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Brian

[Hopkirk]

this game is annoying. I'm just going to lurk until all the trolls are dead.

Can you list those trolls? Serious question.

Sorry, didn't read that whole mess. I skimmed enough to find out it was a mess tho.

I'm going here:

VOTE: Mafia Gunner

I think it sounds kind of fake because someone already voted the gunner. Repeating the joke sounds less legitimate.

@Cheeky: why do you think 69 could be serious?

I feel like there's going to be mafia and werewolves and when mafia flips people will say 'it's multiball' and other people will say 'they're clearly the same team due to mafia gunner'.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler:

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

These are good.

Why is this good?

Yes.

Not following up here is why I voted brian btw. Gave minor impression he was asking qs without followng up.

VOTE: Quick

[Hopkirk]

How did you read it as 'this slot is confirmed scum' without thinking it was weird that nobody else was voting it/talking about it Quick?
In that scenario, I'd expect you to think other people were voting elsewhere to form reads before they ended the day by voting MG. Actually voting MG there is kind of LAMIST even if you thought it was true.

If a scum-player controls MG like the other game then it's worse.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler:

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

These are good.

Why is this good?

Yes.

Not following up here is why I voted brian btw. Gave minor impression he was asking qs without followng up.

VOTE: Quick

I'm not even going to bother with this tin foil theory.

Did you misread it as my talking about you rather than about Brian?
Because that wasn't a theory about you, it was content about someone else then a naked vote on you.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Nero Cain

Let's see what will happen...

I could vote Nero. Depends who is on the troll list.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler:

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

These are good.

Why is this good?

Yes.

Not following up here is why I voted brian btw. Gave minor impression he was asking qs without followng up.

You were clearly trolling me. How should I have followed up when there was nothing in your response to me to make me want to bother to continue talking to you?

This is the town response I was imagining.
My response was selfish, but useful I think.

[Hopkirk]

Are there any people here I shouldn't townread: Panoptican, Brigand, Brian, Centipede, Creature, Cheeky

@Ausuka: how do you feel about large games?

[Hopkirk]

Are there any people here I shouldn't townread: Panoptican, Brigand, Brian, Centipede, Creature, Cheeky

Maybe Brigand doesn't reach the level of the others.

Also Ellibereth still gotta do stuff.

Yeah, Brigand is obviously very light with 4 posts.
Anyone you'd add?

[Hopkirk]

Quick Quick, give me three people you townread.
Also still interested in how you read the game like you said you did.

[Hopkirk]

All I'm doing is pointing out that the votes on me have zero substance. Why do you think that is defensive? You must think it's automatically Scummy to defend yourself. News flash: it isn't

This is kinda bullshit?

I keep asking you why what I am posting is Bullshit and you keep NOT explaining that.

If ignoring stuff is a scumtell then I should be scumreading you more right now, right?

[Hopkirk]

As far as I can see, I am just experimenting with voting Mafia Gunner because I really have no idea what their function is.

'I am assuming it's a Scum role, I want it out of the game,'
How did this line fit that?
Were you concerned nobody else was talking about it?

[Hopkirk]

@Nero: who was on your list of trolls here?

[Hopkirk]

Why does it matter?

Interested in
-whether I'm there
-how you read me

[Hopkirk]

Why does it matter?

Interested in
-whether I'm there
-how you read me

you're scum yeah.

My concern was that you weren't scumreading me. It's good that you are.
Can you explain why to see if it matches?

[Hopkirk]

I thought we were all just called 'villager' and that isn't a role claim whatsoever.

[Hopkirk]

I didn't really like your jokey 27. Seems uncharacteristic for you.

Can you list those trolls? Serious question.

this seems like a useless filler question and I don't see town asking this.

Quick Quick, give me three people you townread.
Also still interested in how you read the game like you said you did.

this felt like the kind of "throw gas on a fire" post that scum makes to fuel a wagon.

Nero can be town.
I was assuming I was in his 'trolling/joking' group and wondered why he didn't mention anything. Based on the one game I played with him, that's the impression I thought he had od me, even if it's not accurate. Not liking the joke explains well.

Should be easy to find town me opening with bad jokes.

Sleeping now then working.

[Hopkirk]

16 pages overnight? No problem, It just means me catch up will take up close to a full page.
Posting as I read.

I didn't really like your jokey 27. Seems uncharacteristic for you.

Can you list those trolls? Serious question.

this seems like a useless filler question and I don't see town asking this.

Quick Quick, give me three people you townread.
Also still interested in how you read the game like you said you did.

this felt like the kind of "throw gas on a fire" post that scum makes to fuel a wagon.

Nero can be town.
I was assuming I was in his 'trolling/joking' group and wondered why he didn't mention anything. Based on the one game I played with him, that's the impression I thought he had od me, even if it's not accurate. Not liking the joke explains well.

Should be easy to find town me opening with bad jokes.

Sleeping now then working.

Thanks for spewing Nero Town.

VOTE: Hopkirk

I don't understand what this means.
You're also a hypocrite for attacking/calling people bad for not explaining votes when this isn't explained.

I didn't really like your jokey 27. Seems uncharacteristic for you.

Can you list those trolls? Serious question.

this seems like a useless filler question and I don't see town asking this.

Quick Quick, give me three people you townread.
Also still interested in how you read the game like you said you did.

this felt like the kind of "throw gas on a fire" post that scum makes to fuel a wagon.

Nero can be town.
I was assuming I was in his 'trolling/joking' group and wondered why he didn't mention anything. Based on the one game I played with him, that's the impression I thought he had od me, even if it's not accurate. Not liking the joke explains well.

Should be easy to find town me opening with bad jokes.

Sleeping now then working.

I like that Hopkirk assessed the push but feels like he's placating Nero.

Hey Hop when you get back can you answer my question about if you were serious that CS should've townread you by page 3? And if so why?

Placating doesn't make sense when I'm on the offense in the interaction. He didn't show any signs of reading me until I pushed him 2-3 times on it.
It was not serious. I thought this was implied when I asked you, in response, why you thought it was serious?

[Hopkirk]

@Quick: explain Spew please.

The only thing odd about Quick is that he's refusing to answer this very simple question:

How did you read it as 'this slot is confirmed scum' without thinking it was weird that nobody else was voting it/talking about it Quick?

but that's not really scummy?

Quick behaving weirdly and not being overly helpful isn't alignment indicative as far as I remember (although idk the last time I played with him)

And he continues to double down that he's doing nothing wrong despite the pressure which kinda reads more like stubborn town to me than scum

It's potentially from scum or town. That's why I asked a question about the thought process he had.

without thinking it was weird that nobody else was voting it/talking about it Quick?

I think this is the part Spiffeh thinks your avoiding.

I asked him about 3 questions that he ignored. This was the most important one.

[Hopkirk]

I don't think I quoted the evidence that shows Grey was lying earlier. If nothing else came up on the topic, I'll quote it when I catch up.

There's also this

I didn't really like your jokey 27.

Seems uncharacteristic for you.

Based on the one game I played with him, that's the impression I thought he had od me

Part of me feels like yeah if he thought I thought he was a troll then I could see where he thinks me not liking a shit joke is a thing.

But at the same time, I called his "joke" uncharacteristic as in I didn't have him pegged as a troll. So it seems surprising that he's not calling bullshit on me.

I mean, I did look at the game we played and he did open with a joke but I'm not going to townread him based on a joke.

Not sure you understand my meaning.
In the other game we played together I was more serious.
In this game I've been more memey.
Was wondering what you'd think of the difference.
My question was because I was trying to work out whether you noticed, and why you didn't call it out (that's why I said earlier that I could go either way on you/you could be scum or something, it depended).
My only issue is that you needed the prompting in the first place. Could you explain why you didn't say from the start you thought I was very different?

[Hopkirk]

UNVOTE: Quick
Not feeling it right now from where i am.

Ok I'm all caught up

Brian Skies is easily the scummiest player in the game and should be wagoned/lynched

Why does 67 come from scum?

You dodged.

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

Why is it only scummy to dodge questions from you? Lots of other dodging happened on the previous pages, and from you too.

VOTE: Hopkirk

Baaah.

Can you tell me three people you town read, excepting myself?

I obviously don't town read you because I'm voting you

I don't have three town reads.
I don't have one.
What of it?

Do you feel proud of yourself.

you didn't give one, Hopkirk. <3
Panopticon presented an interaction.

You don't townread me on meta already?

Du fuq?

So Mulch sent me my role PM in a spoiler tag, and I decided not to open it. I'm probably town, but just in case, can the scum tell me their names so I know not to lynch them until I open the box?

I'll give you one chance to admit this is untrue.

I'll give you one chance to admit this was a joke.

You'll give me one chance to admit which bit is a joke.
1.) I admitted this was a joke (implied it at least) when Cheeky asked if it was a joke. Did you miss me saying that? A joke in the sense of not expecting them to townread me on meta. Not that it was useless, it was something to interact on briefly.
2.)This isn't a joke and there's direct in thread evidence ICe was lying about it.

[Hopkirk]

If Quick's claim is ambiguous maybe we should leave it that way since it's not even 24 hours into the game?

Who was asking in the pages leading up to you saying this.

elli please get in here and help chara get it together
(:

what do you mean 'help chara get it together'?

Dislike this.


@Ausuka: how many games have you played with Creature? Or I guess Creature could respond to this if online first.

[Hopkirk]

wait quick are you a vt

wtf you said you'd claim earlier

Unauthentic.

claimclaimclaimclaimclaimclaimclaimclaim

you're a wolf

VOTE: centipede syndrome

centipede has spent the entire game going through the motions, doing interactions that are meaningless and pushing pro-scum early claims because elli doesn't care, because elli isn't very likely a villager.

I liked one chara post way back then but that's being override by the many wolfy elli posts.

Agreement.

[Hopkirk]

Town
Beeboy
Creature
Toranaga
Nero
Gork
Grey

Less Town
The Worst
Maybe Quick - I could easily make a case against this slot, but I don't really believe this will flip scum.

No Idea
Everyone Else

Slight Scumlean
Srceen - My gut says otherwise, but I feel like this post is unnecessarily nitpicky (and I feel like that's more of something scum might do). I'm also not getting good vibes from his hardtunnel on the Quick slot. So it's probably more appropriate to put him here even though

Sketchy
Ausuka
Cheeky

Scumleans
Brigand
Hopkirk - I'm not confident on this being scum, but I do get the placating, and I didn't really get the greatest vibes in his push on me (he didn't even answer my question to him). Feels a lot like 'poking and running away', if that makes any sense.

VOTE: Hopkirk

Don't really get this vote.
1.) please explain where you think I'm placating in a mixture of your own words and my words (quotes of how). Most interested in why I'd push someone to say they scumread me, then 'placate' them when they aren't making the read independently.
2.) I explained my read on you and my intention and sort of answered that question. What didn't you like with my explination?
Why sketchy on Ausuka/Cheeky?

Well his ISO is garbage. Bad entrance but not sure if scummy bad. Ausuka push seems bandwagony seeing as hes contributed eff all and pop's in to interrogate one of the players under heavy suspicion in what feels like a disingenuous way. Contrary to Ausuka though he's not lacking tone.

Also in reading his ISO I think Hopkirk might be town this game. Check it out it's not long.

Hey, it's bigger than average.

[Hopkirk]

weak townlean from ISO

could really be anything, but feel is town.

I think... ausuka/greyice/centipede are the scummiest, and then 0 posters are probably scumheavy.

so this is game so far. I'm basically townreading everyone that posted anything reasonable outside of these 3. yes, including brian.

Kind of agreeing with townreading most active people. Townreading Ausuka too though.

Hopkirk-

83, 93, 99, 324 seem towny imo.

283 303 are better in ISO than when I read them in real time.

201 felt like a copy of Beeboy's case.
247 felt awkward.

Apart from Quick I don't understand the other votes there.

Yeah he does seem different in that he seems a bit looser, and has more pushes than just commenting like last game.

Tor why do you TR vvulf?

The second half of 201 isn't anything like what Beeboy was saying.
247, extension of wanting to know what Q was thinking. Couldn't resist the bad joke.

[Hopkirk]

Voting scum isn't a good way to find scum.
We've already found scum.
The problem is voting them.

Could you self vote and speed things up?

You are 100% confirmed scum to me right now. We need to 1v1. Anyone who votes outside of us from this point on is confirmed wolf. On a scale of one to infinity, you are infinitly scum. You need to flip to death and I will

pillage

your corpse for the towncred that will naturally follow from me being so so right about how terrible a thing you are. That's right, a thing, not a person. You can try and hide it all you want, but everyone with

eyes

can BLATENTLY see exactly what you are doing here. It makes me sick to even be having to case you for being obvious scum here. Anyone who isn't voting for Grey here should take a moment to consider whether they read their role pms wrong, because being scum is literally the only way you couldn't see exactly what kind of

SICK

game Greyice is trying to play here. The scum/wolf stench is so strong I can bearly bear actually voting with him. The association with that much scum in one place makes me feel like scum too. You are the scum

abyss

and even a glance makes me feel worse, let alone a gaze. The scumminess radiating from you in every direction makes me want to lynch you, and the people above and below you in the playerlist. I am shocked and appalled that you haven't been either lynched, or vigged already. It is simply inconcievable that you, scum incarnate, are still here right now.

They'll never suspect this

really is

a mutual hard bus.

thiis is a copypasta right? other than that I think hopkirk has been playing different than his last wolf game with us and I feel he has been fairly towny/noticing things I'm noticing too. not strong either way.

No. I wrote this intentionally and originally.

[Hopkirk]

im not interested in pushing grey or discussing why i think hes scum right now.
youre more than capable of trying to parse him yourself for now, but theres literally very little productive value in laying my hand out when itll be easier to lynch him if he doesnt towntell for most of today.
p-edit: where did i say i want people to sheep me on grey? am i voting him?

Do you/did you when you posted this, believe he's lying about not reading the role pm?

[Hopkirk]

Also,

I'd like to know which of you Mulch invited to play this game for my own ENTERTAINMENT.

Yes.

Gorkypie I really don't like the manner in which you chose to engage with Quick

I feel like it's been a common thing to say that Quick has been trolling/being intentionally useless and beyond being a little defensive when being wagoned early on I feel like he's bounced back nicely and been contributing? It may not be up to your standards or maybe not all that readable for you but I think saying that he's been shitposting for 10 pages is pretty disingenuous.

Also, it's pretty obvious from his opening posts that Quick trips over his words a lot so you pointing out logical inconsistencies with his posting isn't all that compelling and I feel like town!you should know that? So 680 and 681 don't really sit well with me.

If you're scum reading Quick which I think you might be can you help me see why?

great post spiffeh

I have a feeling that if both you and thor are town, we're going to win this

Why town Thor?

[Hopkirk]

ok
i see that

stuff after with the “maybe i am maybe i’m not” was weird but i get the villager claim thing

that’s fine i’ll move on
but embrace the scumreads,
there was likely annoying scum pushing on you

Want to hear your thoughts here too.

At this point I'm fully willing to lynch Quick and Toranaga for being spammy as fuck, and Ausuka and Hopkirk for being scum.

All four of these reads are bad reads.

I think Panopticon looks p. bad and no one is talking about them

Get a wagon going on him and I'd back it.
I'd actually kind of like to see you off Brian and onto Hopkirk, personally, but Panopticon looks more interesting than Brian as a wagon to me also, which makes me wonder why you're spinning your wheels there.
I can't even recall the last point anyone really advanced much on him - though I'll admit 10 pages back only takes us to yesterday evening, but still

Refresh your stale read or move?

Why Hop scum? I assume it's serious now.

Atleast Thor can be town for now

Interested in hearing why since I townread you/tort.

[Hopkirk]

Gorkington, Bins, Paonpticon, GreyICE to say a few.

There's also Spiffeh I simply don't know how to read

Why Gork scum?

@Quick: explain Spew please.

It's basically when a Scum player WKs a Town person as Town because there is no way that Scum player gives their Teammate a read like that.

Not sure I get what you meant then.

VOTE: quick

Trouble finding the thread. I'm here now ladies and gentlemen. Will catch up soon.

Voted because of biggest wagon of course.

Uh.

[Hopkirk]

Hopkirk desperately searching for evidence of what role I might have amuses me.

Centipede votes are trash.

I don't understand what you mean by the first part.

[Hopkirk]

Every single person except Thor has confirmed, so although I originally intended to wait to start the game before he confirmed (beacuse he never technically confirmed his pre/in), I'm not going to hold the entire game hostage over one person. If he does end up getting "replaced", don't hold it against him.

This is what proves Greyice was lying.

[Hopkirk]

@Quick: explain Spew please.

It's basically when a Scum player WKs a Town person as Town because there is no way that Scum player gives their Teammate a read like that.

Not sure I get what you meant then.

VOTE: quick

Trouble finding the thread. I'm here now ladies and gentlemen. Will catch up soon.

Voted because of biggest wagon of course.

Uh.

And you were doing well too...

What do you mean? It was a light townread on Nero, not a hard one. I think i'd admitted I had one game with him. Should extent trivially from that that my model's imperfect.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Centipede

For the super fake tone of 496/500.

I'm caught up.

[Hopkirk]

Oh no I should eat

[Hopkirk]

@Quick: explain Spew please.

It's basically when a Scum player WKs a Town person as Town because there is no way that Scum player gives their Teammate a read like that.

Not sure I get what you meant then.

VOTE: quick

Trouble finding the thread. I'm here now ladies and gentlemen. Will catch up soon.

Voted because of biggest wagon of course.

Uh.

And you were doing well too...

What do you mean? It was a light townread on Nero, not a hard one. I think i'd admitted I had one game with him. Should extent trivially from that that my model's imperfect.

You not understanding what I was saying about the spew thing is bad... pretty bad actually. It would have been a lot better if you would have said "I can see how you would see that but..." But you didn't and it looks bad. And SRing Chills entry is like... IDEK... What was that? It wasn't at all like Chill was serious in the slightest which I alluded to in my post in retort to his post, namely the joke I repeated for the second fucking time needling Chill for not capitalizing the Q in my username which I also said to Cent.

Uh does not mean anything close to a scumread.
I can't really talk about the first (spew) stuff until I actually understand where you're coming from. The word as you defined it doesn't make contextual sense.

Every single person except Thor has confirmed, so although I originally intended to wait to start the game before he confirmed (beacuse he never technically confirmed his pre/in), I'm not going to hold the entire game hostage over one person. If he does end up getting "replaced", don't hold it against him.

This is what proves Greyice was lying.

I told you, Mulch sent me my role entirely inside a spoiler tag, and I never opened it. I even told him in my confirmation note that I was avoiding spoilers.

It seems you got a slightly different role PM from me. Did yours have a QT link outside the spoiler section perhaps?

That doesn't sound like something that would be allowed.
@Mulch: Would you allow someone to not confirm their role?

[Hopkirk]

Notes so far;
38 from Maria is really reachy.
44 feels pretty scummy too. 59/63 is a huge overreaction to the push at that point.
I townread Cedrick and katherine.
Creature hasn't really posted enough to be sorted yet. If this keeps going for a while he can be town.
What kts did can come from either alignment and I haven't found anything to sort him with.

Extra-Special Townbloc of Happy Friends

Ausuka, Cedrick

Candidates For Promotion

Katherine

Watchlist For Meaniness

brassherald, Creature, Gamma Emerald, Mumble, Killthestory, implosion

Wanted for Bullying and General Sad Crimes

MariaR, Tchill13

VOTE: Tchill

This is Scum.

Took me literally less than a minute to meta dive this read.

Different in context.
Though I asked how Ausuka approaches larges due to this. It was more different earlier in the day.
@Ausuka: thoughts on me based on that game?

Honestly, the fact that Quick is voting for Centipede is the best reason to not be voting for Centipede, in my opinion.

~The Observer

Where are you at?

[Hopkirk]

I asked you questions Brian.

[Hopkirk]

My main issue with GreyIce is that they aren't doing anything in the game.

[Hopkirk]

Don't really get this vote.
1.) please explain where you think I'm placating in a mixture of your own words and my words (quotes of how). Most interested in why I'd push someone to say they scumread me, then 'placate' them when they aren't making the read independently.
2.) I explained my read on you and my intention and sort of answered that question. What didn't you like with my explination?
Why sketchy on Ausuka/Cheeky?

1) Because your accusations on Nero and I weren't that developed and the instant we both pushed back and engaged you, you backed off and just said we were town (or in my case just indicated that you thought I was). This is what I mean by poking and running away.
2) When did you explain your read on me? All I got from you was 'this is the reaction I was expecting so it wasn't entirely useless' which neither explains your original read of me (or my post) nor does it answer my original question of why you thought Brigand's post was good.

1.) Why does scum me push people then 'back off'? What do I gain there? Think about actual scum motivation before saying it's scummy since scum have no incentive to do that. You're scumreading style rather than motive.
Why can't town me like responses? Why do I not move on to other people when I'm happy with what I have?

2.) The initial engagement wasn't leading anywhere. Not sure why you think it's scummy to try and make it something meaningful.

[Hopkirk]

Panoptican's read list in 904 looks uncontoversial/able to vote anyone who might be voted soon.
Not paying attention to me alone is sinful and scummy.

[Hopkirk]

My main issue with GreyIce is that they aren't doing anything in the game.

Please explain, scumfuck. What exactly should I "be doing" in the game? Or is this hollow meaningless bullshit?

If you don't have the basic respect required to explain your thoughts then don't expect me to fucking explain anything to you.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Pan VOTE:

[Hopkirk]

Nero is clear and so is hopkirk.

What about Beeboy?

VOTE: Pan

[Hopkirk]

Nero is clear and so is hopkirk.

What about Beeboy?

VOTE: Pan

Not sure but we can throw in cheeky for sure.

As town?

[Hopkirk]

All I know is these wagons seem to snowball very quickly. Interested to see if the same people are consistently the 2-5th votes.

Is that alignment indicative or playstyle indicative when it's 11 to lynch?

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka HI. Why am I town.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka HI. Why am I town.

your tone is very towny, and you're playing like you did in floral.

pedit: ok I like that!
VOTE: tchill13

Tchill, HI. As another player in Floral, do you think Ausuka sounds legit here?

[Hopkirk]

The guy who went out of his way to claim Villager is definitely saying he read people as town

due to his role

?

[Hopkirk]

1.) Why does scum me push people then 'back off'? What do I gain there? Think about actual scum motivation before saying it's scummy since scum have no incentive to do that. You're scumreading style rather than motive.
Why can't town me like responses? Why do I not move on to other people when I'm happy with what I have?

2.) The initial engagement wasn't leading anywhere. Not sure why you think it's scummy to try and make it something meaningful.

1) Because it makes it seem look like you're engaging and trying to sort people. Or that maybe they should townread you or ignore you when you back off before risking any serious pushback or engagement when they interact with you.

2) I don't understand what you're talking about here. And you still haven't explained A) Why Brigand's post was townish or B) Your previous read of me.

1.) Better ways to look like I'm engaging people is to legitimately engage people. Your 'push back' looks like it was based on the original scumread of you so I gain nothing there either. Scum me doesn't bother wasting time trying to get scumread.
2.) I don't even remember these things since that was pretty much the large version of RVS.

If you're 'pushing back hard' then why are the only things you're referencing throwaway posts from 40+ pages ago?

[Hopkirk]

Cheeky is obv town so that's a n

ice

question.

[Hopkirk]

What does everyone think of THOR.

[Hopkirk]

What if she's just

pretending

she doesn't townread Cheeky since she worked out what you were thinking!

[Hopkirk]

@Brian: I don't think our discussion is going anywhere. Lets try again later.

So for Town I have:

Tora
Spiffeh
Creature
Brain
MariaR
And add these for tinfoil theory:
Aususka
Beeboy
Nero
Hop
Cheeky

These are all in my townpile to a degree.

I town read Quick now, ty Tor for asking me to back off.

I think I am leaning towards hopkirk I didnt overly like his vote on Elli

And why is this the first we're hearing of this?

[Hopkirk]

@Brian: I don't want to answer questions that should be super easy, so let's try again later.

:/

I feel if you were unsatisfied with my answers then you'll be unsatisfied with the same thing but with more words.

I have no idea why my early townlean on Brigand matters whatsoever? I said at the time it was very light and there's actually relevant stuff to talk about.
I think the entire reason was because I liked 53.

Scumreading you initially was because... nope it was less than ten pages in. Why do you think it had solid logic. I gave the entire reason a while back in 190. You didn't follow up on something. That made you a decent person to push. 222, that ended with a read formed and I moved on. Not sure what you're looking for, my motivation is literally just what's obvious from using ctrl f in my iso for your name and stopping at 222. Nothing else to it there.

To the first point about 'backing off', it's shooting as much stuff out as possible and trying to form as many reads as possible on as many people as possible as quickly as possible. That's how I'm trying to approach games atm. That's why I listed I think 6 townreads pretty quickly. 100% playstyle.

[Hopkirk]

It’d be funny if the anti-claiming mech is that Mulch told us there was an anti-claiming mech. The knowledge there’s an anti-claiming mech in of itself makes claiming dangerous.

[Hopkirk]

I feel at least a bit good about: Toranaga, MariaR, Beeboy, Ausuka, Cheeky, Quick, Brian, Nero, Brigand (a bit), Screen (a bit)

Zone of people I need to interact with: The Worst, Tchill, Panoptican UNVOTE: panoptican, Bins, Spiffeh

Hive of potential scum and villany: Thor665, Gorkington, GreyIce, Centipede

[Hopkirk]

Creature should be in feel good.

[Hopkirk]

Not impressed with Thor at all.

[Hopkirk]

more than 75% of the time?
It's a shitty reaction test that he's using instead of content to avoid solid reads.
None of the people in column 3 are solid scum right now, I'm still sorting.

[Hopkirk]

Admittedly self centric, but It's painfully obvious there's a potential wagon hanging over me right now and I get the feeling Thor's waiting for it.

He called his initial vote of me a sheep.
His early townreads (Torn/Quick/BB) don't add anything since they're common.
His defence of Quick was after the quick wagon played its course.
His scum leans on me/Screen don't add anything.

661
-he's now got me as more scummy without explaining. Ignored a request to explain.
-only gives reads on people Torn asked about and adds utterly nothing to any of the reads.
-Slight reasoning given on Screen but doesn't actually move forward to vote screen. Could have potentially moved things forward but hung on me (non wagon that could bloom) instead for unclear reasons.

737- Doesn't add anything to Spiffeh's Pan read. Urges a move to me again without giving any reason (hence no reason to expect anyone to move, hence no forward momentum from Thor).

1080- An iffy reasoning to not vote Brian that doesn't really say anything about

Brian

1082- No original thoughts.


I'll admit I don't know his town meta, but it feels like he's added nothing and he's waiting for something. I don't really say any original thought/effort/proactiveness there.
I think I remember hearing Thor's name in a list of really good players back in like 2014 when I was new and while I don't know how he plays town, this isn't what I'd expect.

[Hopkirk]

‘opportunistic reactive’
I’ve been seeking interactions with most of the game and don’t really care how I come off looking as long as I get a read (Quick, Brian, Nero among others- criticised for the same thing but kept doing the same thing anyway because it gets me reads). Calling me reactive feels like projection given the consistent lack of original thought I’ve seen you bring to the game thusfar.

@Brian: I kind of agreed with 53 at the time so I liked it. 222 is me explaining why I said yes initially. Problems solved? If not, more words won’t work so try asking about something else you dislike in my play and sort me through that? Before you ask, I'm not asking you questions because I have a read on you and there's people I haven't sorted.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Thor

Sleeping then working. Back in like 16 hours.

[Hopkirk]

I kind of agreed with 53 at the time so I liked it.

Why was this so hard for you?

Probably because I didn't like it

enough

that it was immediately memorable 800 posts later.

It’d be funny if the anti-claiming mech is that Mulch told us there was an anti-claiming mech. The knowledge there’s an anti-claiming mech in of itself makes claiming dangerous.

I don't understand why you're speculating about this?

Because it's fun and I can't see any true negative outcomes.

Admittedly self centric, but It's painfully obvious there's a potential wagon hanging over me right now and I get the feeling Thor's waiting for it.

I'm waiting for a wagon that had very minor support and that I've been slowly pushing all the while softly gaining it town support by making people notice that you're kinda scummy?
Yeah, that's true.
Pretty sure it's called good wagon building play.

His early townreads (Torn/Quick/BB) don't add anything since they're common.
His defence of Quick was after the quick wagon played its course.
His scum leans on me/Screen don't add anything.

What did you expect/want my reads to add outside of me stating my reads?

-only gives reads on people Torn asked about and adds utterly nothing to any of the reads.

Are you complaining that I answered a question about reads, or complaining that I didn't volunteer more?
The former is silly.
The latter is only slightly less silly, because you could always ask me for reads yourself if you think it's an issue and *then* call me out if I don't give them.

-Slight reasoning given on Screen but doesn't actually move forward to vote screen. Could have potentially moved things forward but hung on me (non wagon that could bloom) instead for unclear reasons.

What do you think the reasons are, since you're implying it's scummy?

1080- An iffy reasoning to not vote Brian that doesn't really say anything about

Brian

You're right, it said something about *Thor*.

I'll admit I don't know his town meta, but it feels like he's added nothing and he's waiting for something. I don't really say any original thought/effort/proactiveness there.

I find the idea I haven't advanced original thoughts to be laughable and easily disproved - that said, presuming we accept this as true - why is my brand of lack of originality different and more questionable than other brands?
Because I feel like the legit answer is 'Because Thor is voting me" which is...silly.

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

[Hopkirk]

I hope Grey does sub out like he said. Not a fan of people with awful attitudes. Especially when they aren’t even pro-town. Atm he’s non-contributing vig bait at best.

Last game (Floral), Tchill insisted that he wouldn’t play as badly as he was if he was scum. Noting this and seeing if it comes up by the time I’m caught up.
-kind of in 1218 but less blatent

@Creature: Why am I not on your townlist? Asking since we just finished a game together and three other players have put me as town from meta. Do you disagree with Ausuka about my play vs my play in Floral? If so, does that affect your Ausuka read at all?

[Hopkirk]

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

[Hopkirk]

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

[Hopkirk]

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

Because I'm not hiding my reads? If you look back at my reads list you'll see the first 5 on the Tchill wagon are in my town column, the next three aren't. I'm talking about players not their Tchill votes specifically.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka is still scum, Hopkirk is town. also Grey is town but hopefully you all knew that. Hopkirk's town because i say so and also because of the bad read on us. and also because Twin Trap.
if Elli gets us lynched i'm not counting it because hydra. haha.
~Chara

I have a hard time believing town chara ever posts this fwiw

Im home a bit later to read what i missed

(if you disagree with T-Hop) Do you think I'm different to TT, or that I have a wide scum range?

I admit to avoiding large games, because they're a sort of cancerous pit (this game is a perfect example) but is the meta to really just grab each other's cocks and stroke until the deadline rolls around?

I'd like to see tchill hammered in the next few pages.

That's literally just you. Nobody else seems super unpleasant.

[Hopkirk]

Screen please stop.

[Hopkirk]

poor Ausuka

[Hopkirk]

That's literally just you. Nobody else seems super unpleasant.

Screen please stop.

You're just trying to goad me.

What's your town motivation for this?

Scum me calls you unpleasant too. I want to play fun games without nasty people whether I'm scum or town.

[Hopkirk]

well i'm glad i didn't get mine out when Cheeky said to put them away and focus on sorting me (since i'd sorted me)

[Hopkirk]

Grey is the kind of person I wouldn't lynch d1 (since the lynch gives us nothing) since vigilantes are common and he's the perfect n1 target.

[Hopkirk]

That's literally just you. Nobody else seems super unpleasant.

Screen please stop.

You're just trying to goad me.

What's your town motivation for this?

Scum me calls you unpleasant too. I want to play fun games without nasty people whether I'm scum or town.

I see. And you suppose the best way to do that is to literally make shit up, since a second after you say I'm the only one you tell someone else to stop.

Are you just trying to make my scum read on you seem personal? Because I assure you, it has everything to do with your posts, and nothing to do with your personality.

I'm asking Screen to stop pushing Quick when Quick is obv town and Screen is light town.

[Hopkirk]

I'm hungover :/ someone time travel and tell me it's a bad idea. Can't sleep.

Grey, thoughts on Tor?

Pedit Chara why are you ignoring me D:

Grey is the kind of person I wouldn't lynch d1 (since the lynch gives us nothing) since vigilantes are common and he's the perfect n1 target.

Only problem here is there is no way to assume vig actually shoots them.

Vig kill, d2 lynch, later kill/lynch: all the same principles apply. Just a slight preference to avoid killing that kind of player with the d1 lynch. I don't feel it advances the game state/gets a good start.

[Hopkirk]

That would be giving away the obv scum that CS caught.

[Hopkirk]

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

1. And yet you agree a wagon energy is building on you. So...
2. Being reactive and not offering new things are two different issues entirely, and you're basically trying to kind of claim both now. I disagree, there are many points I instigated, and also many new ideas I have presented.
3. I'm sorry you're scum and being reactive and scummy or are town with a very strange and narrow view of the game.

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me. You aren't doing anything to push it. Like I said, it feels like you're waiting and hoping it builds from the undercurrent.
-I was claiming you did both from the start. As of the iso i did, you had next to noghting new.
-If you think I'm reactive you aren't reading me. Especially when you're trying to say you aren't. Although people generally find how I look at stuff strange and you might want to do some meta sometime if your problem is with my thinking style.

[Hopkirk]

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me.

I think the operating definition of "scummy" is "doesn't townread Hopkirk"

Didn't you also say that you thought I was scum when I townread Nero/Brian despite them scumreadin me? If so then you know your comment is untrue.

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

1. And yet you agree a wagon energy is building on you. So...
2. Being reactive and not offering new things are two different issues entirely, and you're basically trying to kind of claim both now. I disagree, there are many points I instigated, and also many new ideas I have presented.
3. I'm sorry you're scum and being reactive and scummy or are town with a very strange and narrow view of the game.

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me. You aren't doing anything to push it. Like I said, it feels like you're waiting and hoping it builds from the undercurrent.
-I was claiming you did both from the start. As of the iso i did, you had next to noghting new.
-If you think I'm reactive you aren't reading me. Especially when you're trying to say you aren't. Although people generally find how I look at stuff strange and you might want to do some meta sometime if your problem is with my thinking style.

1. Who are these people specifically?
2. That is provably untrue - from what post did you do the iso and what will you give me to quote a new idea from a post there or before?
3. You are very reactive, you literally just admitted your issue with me was half based on it being about you. If you'd like to call that something other than reactive because you'd like to quibble definitions I'm fine with that. But that's an example of what I mean by reactive.

- We're both aware they exist, why would making a list be helpful for you or a good use of my time?
- The last post I reference in the iso. Clearly.
- You're trying to stretch it into an omgus read when it's based on you being in a poe pool and not doing stuff when I'd have thought you would.

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

I do kinda like this vote but I don't see why we need to derail a perfectly good tchill wagon.

That's the exact reason I unvoted. As said in thread.

[Hopkirk]

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

I can understand the concept of scum seeking easier fish to fry (though would suggest since I'm gunning for him he's at least slightly obligated to engage).
But how does the 'genuinely uninformed' part play into that idea? They appear to be different things, no?

Did you just mean 'scum wouldn't attack Thor, they'd pick an easier target' when you said 'genuinely uninformed'?[/quote

Thor going for partial acceptance rather than the obvious refuting point is ok.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Why doesn't town push you when they think you're faking content/active lurking? Even if it's exagerated depth.

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

Dislike this fanning on conflict between Hop/Thor more than anything Thor's (not) done. You're making it out like It's a 100% read. I don't have a magical program (saw this on a morning skim, not read thoroughly to then).

[Hopkirk]

@Toran/Nero: please townread each other.
VOTE: Panoptican
First five Tchill votes are still nice. It gets a bit worse as it goes on.
Hey Tchill, I asked you one question and you didn’t answer it. I dislike it when people don’t answer my questions. (ok Brian)
Thor’s Screen interaction isn’t great.
I’ll sheep Chara/Elli unless it’s on a strong townread.

Hello? Reasoning please.

It gets a bit worse as it goes on.

why are you being vague instead of direct about the votes you find questionable?

Because he'd have to admit his reason for voting me is mostly bullshit.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Did you mean to quote something else, because this quote isn't really relevant, at all.

Spoiler: grey is towny now

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

You know this game is in a bad state when GreyICE is making sense.

VOTE: Grey

Can we get a Grey wagon going?

1. He refuses to engage with me
   
2. Creature said he can't be TSTBS
   
3. His behavior is Scummy af

No. tchill is today's wagon, no deviation allowed, absent a literal scum claim.

Toranaga is being replaced and may no longer post.

WotM'd day 1, that's a new low.

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

On the other hand, it's actually better to get it out of the way now. If he's scum, he's marked by his team as lynch bait and they will change how they interact with him, which will give us less information than flipping him today. I also agree with GreyICE that the only good scum is a dead scum.

Ah, so you finally decided. So Brigand Vvulf wants to line up the lynch of a poor innocent Tchill, and then lynch poor innocent Nero Cain. Nero, if that's the case, why not vote Tchill? It's not like he's done a damn thing to give anyone in the game a reason NOT to vote him.

See, lining up lynches usually looks like "vote major wagon because it's pretty good, also player X looks scummy we should probably look at player X tomorrow". NOT doing the heavy lifting of making a case and a wagon on you. Oh yeah brother, your posts was complete horseshit.

I'm not sure I want to pursue this over tchill today. But it's something I'm willing to look into tomorrow.

~The Observer

This post is Pan scumclaiming.

[Hopkirk]

I feel in my heart that GreyIce and Bins are town

I feel in my heart that GreyIce and Bins are town

Based on limited reading I feel this

Interested in why you both think both.

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

???

Seems good to let Tchill play out.

[Hopkirk]

Panoptican is just scum in response to Centy.

[Hopkirk]

Ausuka HI. Why am I town.

your tone is very towny, and you're playing like you did in floral.

pedit: ok I like that!
VOTE: tchill13

Tchill, HI. As another player in Floral, do you think Ausuka sounds legit here?

Hi. Tchill. I'm not caught up by 4ish pages but i'm guessing you didn't respond to this yet.

[Hopkirk]

Hey, Nero, why act like you're not going to get lynched today?

Also, I really can't stand this Tchill guy, I'm still cool with offing him.

-ObserVed

Because Nero isn't going to get lynched today.

Hey, Nero, why act like you're not going to get lynched today?

Also, I really can't stand this Tchill guy, I'm still cool with offing him.

-ObserVed

i think panoptic is my biggest scumread. >.>

It's a good thing we're going to be lynching Pan today then.

it seems like several people pointed out nero is town based on meta; meta is krap but due diligence gotta be paid i suppose

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

could it be... the alphaGO of mafia?

I, for one, welcome our new bot overlord

tbf, he is town through meta.

[Hopkirk]

Townpool A: Creature/Beeboy/Cheeky/Quick/Brian/Nero/Torn/Ausuka
Townpool B: Brigand/Screen/Gorkington
POE pool (including neutrals): Thor/Spiffeh/Bins/TheWorst/Maria/GreyICE/Panopticon/Centipede/TChill

If you are in my townpools, please help me shrink my POE pool.

[Hopkirk]

Can you give me an outside perspective on Thor (Nero preferably)?

[Hopkirk]

I'll go for GI before Pan if you do.

[Hopkirk]

@Arc: are you confident enough I'm scum that you wouldn't complain postgame if I shot you?

[Hopkirk]

oops

[Hopkirk]

that was for another game

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Greyice

[Hopkirk]

People pushed a few people including Quick and regretted it because those were bad pushes.
There's a kind of big wagon on Tchill.
We're voting GreyIce then lynching Panoptican.
A powerful algorithm has MariaR as scum.
Lots of people are towny which is good.
Claiming might be punished.
Your slot was very town.

[Hopkirk]

Go for the daykill MariaR.

[Hopkirk]

Ooh Creature, can you convince me Spiffeh or Thor is town.

[Hopkirk]

Being reminded of Kidney mafia makes me want to lynch MariaR more. Backed off of two scum d1 due to pr stuff.

MariaR is a decent lynch.
Pan needs to die soon.

Someone give me a reason to TR Bins because I don’t have one.

[Hopkirk]

Lynchpool for me today: Pan/Grey/MariaR/Bins/The worst/Tchill.

Thor/Centipede/Spiffeh aren't townreads, but wouldn't like to lynch there today.

[Hopkirk]

Pan/Grey/MariaR/Bins/The worst/Tchill.

STOP NAMING PEOPLE IM SLOTTING AS LYNCHBAIT TOWN

My perceptions are coloured by people who looked like lynchbait town making up a heck of a lot of the recent scumteams I've seen.

Which ones are lynchbait town there though.

[Hopkirk]

maybe my*

[Hopkirk]

why is greyice 99%

[Hopkirk]

why's it come from town more than scum or just grey

[Hopkirk]

just grey means personality, like he intended it from the start
thinking someone experienced only does x as town is kind of eh. Stave off the day one lynch by rep and wifom and it's not tactically bad.

Pan needs to be

redeemed]/i] with fire.

[Hopkirk]

Like Hopkirk thinks I need gambits to avoid the lynch day 1. If anything I need gambits to avoid the fucking night kill N1, I've been killed a hell of a lot more times N1 than I'll ever be lynched on day 1. Why? Because I'm a good player, and he's not.

I got my role PM in a spoiler. I responded with a joke "I think I'll avoid spoilers". The mod accepted it. There's no more or less to it. He flipped out, because he's a fucking scumfuck and it's something easy to flip out over.

All he's done since then is scumplain. I'm actually sad other people won't lynch him with me, but apparently useless shit from Elli is worth more than my actual reads.

I didn't say you need to avoid the d1 lynch, I said the opposite. I think you can avoid the d1 lynch even while doing it, and if you do then you avoid future lynches too. My argument was that scum you would know you can avoid the d1 lynch, so it isn't a bad move as scum like Bins said.

[Hopkirk]

I don't believe you didn't open it.

[Hopkirk]

In case that wasn't obvious already.

[Hopkirk]

Why aren't you voting Panoptican? He needs more votes.

[Hopkirk]

I don't believe you didn't open it.

I mean, its obvious as fuck that he DID open it b/c its against site rules to not look at it.

IDK what the current VC is but town prob needs a lynch at this point. Any of Maria/GreyIce/Quick/Bins are good lynches I think.

3 of those are good
I assume TW isn't there because no associations
Why not Pan?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Panoptican

[Hopkirk]

Serious vote. We're lynching here today.

[Hopkirk]

Switch back, we're wagoning Pan now.

[Hopkirk]

Haven't fully caught up, but my vote'd be on MariaR if I saw a recent votecount and she's not on l1.

[Hopkirk]

if*

[Hopkirk]

Pan/Bins/MariaR- to lynch
The wost/Grey- to reread and sort
Thor/Centipede/Spiffeh- to sort post d1

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: MariaR

[Hopkirk]

Did I miss a specific softclaim?

[Hopkirk]

Given you're effecitvely saying what you're claiming, is there any benefit to keeping the specifics hidden (yes/no)

[Hopkirk]

'partners' won't necesarily be scum unless it's fully based on associations.
Pan for example fits, but is also likely scum by their own play.
Bins needs attention sometime.

[Hopkirk]

I am town.

[Hopkirk]

I assume that only works on other people's posts. I'll copy/paste any posts you want made.

Why'd you pick Gork?

[Hopkirk]

that's what i was thinking about

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Panoptican

[Hopkirk]

Wait, when can the two shots be used?

[Hopkirk]

Mafia gunner (daykill) could be the anti-claim mech given it exists.

[Hopkirk]

it only tells us stuff the person saying it knows is true/false apparently.

[Hopkirk]

my concern is that she pushed Gork then townread him after the sort of time where scum-MariaR would have invented the fakeclaim

[Hopkirk]

once per phase but yes.

6. All day actions, if they do exist, may be pre-submitted to be done at any time.

kinda confused how that works when this rule exists given you can't really pre-submit the post # you want detected?

'may' in this context should mean you can do this but don't have to.
Not really sure where you'd want to? Maybe some sort of conditional one?

[Hopkirk]

just melt

[Hopkirk]

GreyIce is still a good vig target.

Your 'read' is a statement.

[Hopkirk]

I townread almost the entire MariaR wagon here.
VOTE: mariaR
L1

[Hopkirk]

Pan/Bins/

MariaR

The wost/Grey
Thor/

Centipede

/Spiffeh

VOTE: Pan

[Hopkirk]

That follows directly from quite a few previous posts I've made. Are you trying to frame it as just random names?

[Hopkirk]

Losers like Spiffeh and Hopkirk scumread me out of the maria flip, somehow?

Wow. You're seriously saying I only scumread you after MariaR's flip?

[Hopkirk]

You should also really go through yourcase on me Pan, because what you're saying doesn't make any sense, and you haven't laid out any reasons.

where are you @ with the centipede

Town.

Hopkirk, I don't understand why/how you're making a pool with me, Bins, and Maria.
Like
I'm not even aware Bins is in this fucking game
What

-obserVed

dude

but seriously hop
maria and i aren’t scum together

I'm listening for why.

[Hopkirk]

Lets vote Pan and/or Grey.

[Hopkirk]

Early/mid game tone struck me as ok.

[Hopkirk]

There's lynchbait and there's lynchbait that flips scum.

[Hopkirk]

Why are there still votes on Tchill. That seems silly.

[Hopkirk]

Still waiting for Pan to answer the questions I responded to them with.
Or for their lynch. Either way is fine.

[Hopkirk]

@Creature: what are your thoughts on Thor?

[Hopkirk]

Eh, I was fine with how you were playing.

[Hopkirk]

That was Quick.

[Hopkirk]

Yes, he is.

[Hopkirk]

It really depends who you are.

[Hopkirk]

Shad will have around 1200 posts by this time tomorrow at their current rate.

[Hopkirk]

An important point is that Centipede said they had a meta read that made them 100% sure on MariaR scum. We wagoned her, she got daykilled, then she flipped scum.

[Hopkirk]

Lynch Pan, daykill Grey tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

[Hopkirk]

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

[Hopkirk]

Can you explain why you townread PAn while I quote stuff

[Hopkirk]

I’m not moving.

Now, I can see you still thinking that's scummy, but...

1. Has he done nothing else worth voting over since?
2. Why aren't you advocating for him if you believe in the vote strong enough to park on it while the rest of the game is clearly ignoring him as an option now (and, indeed, some are starting to town sort him while you sit there silently)
3. You really have no *stronger* scum read on anyone else for any reason? (<--this is the part making me curl my toes at your play slightly)

Is this toward me?


1: Idk. I’m 10-ish pages behind.
2: I did ask for their lynch. It’s not my style to make elaborate cases. I can’t do that. I see weird shit that pings me and I go vote it.
3: Not really. Brian pinged me earlier but I don’t remember why. I would have to iso.

VOTE: quick

What are you waiting for?
You've ducked explaining your deep reads, and now you don't want to weigh in on some sexy wagon competition?
This is the point you yell at me again for suggesting you're not helping town.

Haven’t ducked anything. You just haven’t read.
Tchill13 is probably town.
I don’t have an opinion on Maria.

I like how he interacts with following Quick (even if I like Quick), Interactions with Thor, and his neutral stance on MariaR.
Tone reads as pretty legitimate throughout.

[Hopkirk]

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

Yeah, beacuse 2-3 scum are on one wagon.

Also, Panop is a counter to the Srceen wagon - learn to note when a wagon picks up steam?
Srceen was, functionally, a counter to Tchill methinks - which you agree was iffy, so...?

Three scum is definitely unlikely. Pan+one other is likely as a Pan counterwagon To make up numbers that feel kind of right, 40% you, 50% Grey, 80% Pan for flipping scum.

You forgot to explain why I was scum at any point btw I think? Might have missed a page or few somewhere though.

[Hopkirk]

I don't really remember which way around Pan/Screen was.

[Hopkirk]

I was using counterwagon in the (incorrect) useage of 'alternative wagon'.

[Hopkirk]

Last interaction we had was me responding to you unless this is an invisible case.

@Shad: Not bussing or doing anything against it (in fact, being on a dead wagon while it happens) when it's starting, picking up speed, or peaking seems good to me.

[Hopkirk]

I townread your entire would vote pool to varying degrees. Are your lists in order?
Why town Pan?

[Hopkirk]

Last interaction we had was me responding to you unless this is an invisible case.

I fail to see who had the last interaction somehow equates to lack of my presenting of my case - clarify?
Also, if you think ducking presentation of a case is scummy - could you describe your thoughts on Srceenplay doing the same/show me where you think he actually answered the question?
I think you get too tunneled on people who question you.

So your two issues with me are that
a.) I tunneled people who question me.
and
b.) I townread people who scumread me (Brian and Nero) after launching interactions with them.

That's inconsistent reasoning from here.

Not quoting that because whether Screen answered your question as you'd like isn't relevant to my read on him.

I townread your entire would vote pool to varying degrees. Are your lists in order?
Why town Pan?

When I read Pan's posts I get a really strong feeling that they are actually trying to solve the game rather then just make shit up and go through motions in a way that really strikes me as genuine?
Maybe I should be focusing more on there actual conclusions and reads but I am not sure I am pretty comfortable with calling them town for now.


This is by no means an ordered read list. I just copied the playerlist and moved them into 3 pools.

Both heads?

Why am I in your to lynch pool?

viewtopic.php?p=10110849#p10110849

@Hopkirk - y'know, done the first time you asked me.

'You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.'
Is not a fully explained case.

[Hopkirk]

'Is there anything specific about his interactions that you like?'

Yes. The bit you crossed out is why I liked it. I'm not sure you can objectively like tone.
Specifically: Thor's attacking felt kind of nitpicky, already covered MariaR, and sticking to his Quick read seems more town than scum.

[Hopkirk]

@Shad: Not bussing or doing anything against it (in fact, being on a dead wagon while it happens) when it's starting, picking up speed, or peaking seems good to me.

Actually, I noticed you did respond to it, but Maria was softing a PR and even stated she wanted us to wait for a hammer before lynching someone.

Maria's play makes me think she was looking to rely on her claim to get her out of trouble, so I don't agree with your assessment of Srceen's neutral stance here since that could have just been him waiting for the wagon to blow over or for him to bank on Maria's decision to soft lie detector.

If this was the case, that would likely mean multiple bussing was already occuring. If the plan was to claim her way out of trouble then it'd be a good time for partners to pick up some town cred with bussing. The issue with that is that I like the wagon composition a lot.

[Hopkirk]

Yes. The bit you crossed out is why I liked it. I'm not sure you can objectively like tone.
Specifically: Thor's attacking felt kind of nitpicky, already covered MariaR, and sticking to his Quick read seems more town than scum.

Why do you feel that Thor's nitpickiness is more likely to come from scum, but not Srceen's?

Also, I'm starting to get the feeling that your stance on Srceen has to do more with Thor than actually you having an objective read on Srceen (Thor did push both of you).

I also don't think Srceen's tone/attitude was warranted in relation to Thor. Why do you?

A couple of things I didn't like from Thor actually I've realized came from Screen due to how 1304 was formatted. Specifically where Screen says about Thor calling his playstyle anti-town/he can townlead. Thought Thor was trying to use rep there to attacking a null looking player. Turns out that didn't actually happen. I agree the tone from Screen there is bad.

Main reason from Thor (after removing the above) is that Screen isn't really different to multiple other slots that Thor isn't touching, but Screen has at least some good tone. Main difference seems that Screen was an easier push there.

[Hopkirk]

Also @Brian: Screen isn’t a hard townread- as shown by him being in the light town section on my readlists. I don’t get why you’re asking so many questions/pushing me to defend him.

@Pan: Most of my reasoning for you isn’t laid out. 1783 is where I started actively disliking you (in-game, not personally). It snowballed from there and I couldn’t be bothered making dozens of posts about what I disliked. Although I thought I did say more than I did. I haven’t really seen any attempt from you to engage with me either, so please don’t try and criticise me for that. 2893 was a rhetorical question yeah since it’s blatant misrepresentation- which I guess you agree with since you quoted a dozen posts contradicting it.

So your two issues with me are that
a.) I tunneled people who question me.
and
b.) I townread people who scumread me (Brian and Nero) after launching interactions with them.

That's inconsistent reasoning from here.

I'll agree that's inconsistant...if I'd said both of those things.
Can you quote where I expressed b) at any time? Because I'm pretty sure you're making that up because you're being daft and tunneled.

Not quoting that because whether Screen answered your question as you'd like isn't relevant to my read on him.

It's relevant to your tunneling making you a hypocrit.
WOuldn't you like to shove in my face that I'm wrong?
I'm literally setting up for you to either prove I'm wrong or to at least ask yourself why you're reading two things very differently (even though now you're having to change tune a bit since I gave you one example - another tunnel proof. Stop being narf.).

'You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.'
Is not a fully explained case.

So now it's not that I didn't describe the case, it's that I didn't provide examples (the only thing that case is missing) and it's a total drop of your claim that somehow by you responding last I didn't do something.
Do you see the issue here?
Sheep me on Srceen.

Must have been some other people who said B actually. Given you only just said A and B didn't happen, that still leaves the issue of your case being a single unexplained sentance.
You didn't descibe it or explain examples though?

You're right on Screen/you interactions which I misread. Screen's down to neutral to me right now.

[Hopkirk]

Eat shit, then.

It's clear from Hopkirk's interactions (or lack thereof with us) that his read on us is conjured from fucking thin air and randomly picked from a PoE pool because we're the lowest hanging lynch of the day.

-obserVed

I guess I'm better than I thought at identifying low hanging fruit since nobody else was pushing you when I started.

Interaction is a two way street. You were voting me first backed by saying two other people scumread me. When I voted you, despite your vote being unexplained, you immediately asked for reasons (the way you hadn't provided it). I said how I disliked your votecount and a specific post around when I voted you. You didn't try to interact with me on the scumread at any point. You've only become concerned with interacting with me now that my vote's been joined by others.

[Hopkirk]

I kinda hope Pan flips town so I can laugh at you guys for letting Grey slip by. I guess if Pan flips scum then you guys get to do the opposite.

Any reason's for them being unlikely partners?

Pan's acting angry doesn't help town.

[Hopkirk]

I played resistance last night.
Didn't really want to play.
but
I said I'm not looking at my card. Everyone blew me off except one person. He made a big deal about it. I called him out as scum. He was scum.

There's a pretty central mechanic that impossible if you mean what you sound like you mean. Please explain in your next post how you could play resistance without looking at your card.

[Hopkirk]

I played resistance last night.
Didn't really want to play.
but
I said I'm not looking at my card. Everyone blew me off except one person. He made a big deal about it. I called him out as scum. He was scum.

There's a pretty central mechanic that impossible if you mean what you sound like you mean. Please explain in your next post how you could play resistance without looking at your card.

If anyone else tries to answer this then they're lockscum to me.
If it's not answered in Screen's next post I'm switching to a wagon that half of my scumreads support.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Greyice
Caught up.

[Hopkirk]

Might be l2?

@Bins: I think you missed 'why does scum MariaR make you town'.

[Hopkirk]

Unvoting Pan because the meta from people I trust here is enough for reasonable doubt.

[Hopkirk]

Someone dayvig GI so we can keep the streak alive.

[Hopkirk]

Fakevigs are dumb.
Can we pretend I just did one so I don't have to actually type it?

[Hopkirk]

2 more

[Hopkirk]

It's fun watching Ice melt under pressure.

[Hopkirk]

Can we lynch today since I'm going to be bust playing mafia tomorrow.

[Hopkirk]

I could come up with better bullshit than that in my

sleet

.

[Hopkirk]

Thawtunately you're getting iced anyway. You're just sad town's going to be the winter. If you've got any hope of not being lynched you should let it go. There's absolutely zero reason you won't be. Snow chance at all. You're ice-olated here, nobody's going to accept the un-brrr-lievable that you're town. We can take a scumread on you all the way to the snow bank. Nero was right we should have done you frost. Don't really plan on responding to you, I plan on giving you the cold shoulder. I'm cold to your pleas for mercy. It's the end of the ice age. Enjoying the winter punderland?

[Hopkirk]

People are going to think this was scumtheater from the start aren't they.

[Hopkirk]

I stopped pushing Centipede on I think the first game day.
Centi was never a top scumread, as per lack of me pushing.
I reevaluated on MariaR.
There's much more credible ways to bus than unvoting after a claim then revoting.
I've been saying for about 2000 posts you/Pan are my top scumreads. You're ignoring that when you say I just hopped onto you there because Pan is falling apart. There's multiple posts where I say you're number 2 for me.

[Hopkirk]

This is wrong because

: Although I townread plenty of people who don't scumread me, remember Brian/Nero at the start? Nero is near the top of my townpool, Brian is solid.

Even if it was accurate then it would be wrong because]/b]: I take it you aren't aware of my meta if you think disliking people who scumread me is a scumtell. Plenty of games will show that. Funnily enough, Winter Wonderland is a good example of that. Scumread Kat/HeM much of early game, partly due to their perspective of me, then correctly adjust the reads as it goes on.

[Hopkirk]

Nero was right we should have done you frost.

As much as this feeds my ego I think lynching Maria was a good call. May have not gotten Grey if we hadn't lynched Maria.

I mean before Pan. You went on Pan, I said Grey was my 2nd choice and voted Pan.

[Hopkirk]

This is wrong because

: Although I townread plenty of people who don't scumread me, remember Brian/Nero at the start? Nero is near the top of my townpool, Brian is solid.

Even if it was accurate then it would be wrong because]/b]: I take it you aren't aware of my meta if you think disliking people who scumread me is a scumtell. Plenty of games will show that. Funnily enough, Winter Wonderland is a good example of that. Scumread Kat/HeM much of early game, partly due to their perspective of me, then correctly adjust the reads as it goes on.

this is @'And of course his response to me. Hell, he even says everyone who scumreads him is "scummy"'

[Hopkirk]

Lets vote Pan and/or Grey.

Lynch Pan, daykill Grey tomorrow.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

[Hopkirk]

Those four posts (I think all are when Pan is leading wagon and you have 2-3 votes) show very clearly you're in my top two.
There's earlier posts where I say I heavily scumread you, but those are the only post MariaR lynch.

[Hopkirk]

Managing to miss those is just... not even bad. It's just sad.

[Hopkirk]

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I was just reminded that Hopkirk openly decried the Srceen wagon, which is another reason I've been pushing him on that read.

I don't like Hop pushing srceenplay for the resistance thing and demanding for a response in his next post before jumping onto the Grey wagon. I think if he seriously had somewhere to go with that, he wouldn't have been so eager to push Grey closer to a lynch. Idk, it kinda feels like a slimy setup post to justify his later Grey vote (in that Grey has also claimed to not look at his role, except these are two different games and srceen isn't even claiming to have done that this game, so...?).

I can sort of see what Grey means regarding Hop and his srceen stance, but I still just want to lynch srceen. We can add rolefishing to the list of crimes, that most of you probably didn't even notice because most of you are avoiding or ignoring him this game.

Idk if you remember, but discussion that was about wagon composition (scummy people on it).

The resistance thing is either a scumslip, or easily explained at a ratio of maybe 90:10. In other news,

it's two days to deadline

and I've said i probably won't be online tomorrow. Given this, what would you expect me to do in this scenario? Not vote anybody, stay on a wagon that I don't like as much? This is a legitimate question.

You're claiming here the same thing Grey did, that I've just gone onto his wagon. I direct your attention to where I responded to Grey quoting that he's been one of my top two scumreads for a long time. I very much want to hear how you'll explain this position if it isn't a mistake.
The fact that you're able to miss that makes me very concerned about you now :/

[Hopkirk]

It's less than 2 days to deadline. I recommend putting GI on L1.

[Hopkirk]

Although on second thoughts scum-Brian is unlikely to defend his partner from the inevitable lynch.