Rocky Horror Picture Show - players suck, game over

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Cerberus v666

I want this guy stuck on my side of the fence.

Though, from what I recall from the fucking signup thread, there's nothing stopping cult from recruiting someone literally one minute before we vote them to be immune.

[Varsoon]

I'm curious what the intended mode of play for us is.
I guess we'll have no idea how to progress towards a win until at least one pause portion of the game is over, though I can assume maybe someone has some kills out there because a 21 player game where no one dies sure would be long-winded.

I feel the one big flaw of this game is that it heavily relies on timing. I vowed I'd never MAKE a game like that after Bloodborne ended up accidentally having similar mechanics. Basically, stuff resolves in the order it was submitted here. I wonder if it still adheres to NAR.

Maybe I should've started my game here by just asking Drealmerz a shitload of questions. Like Vecna said, that's the kind of shit drealz has a fetish for.

[Varsoon]

Pretty much. I'm not even gonna sweat it until we've got a better grasp on what's going on.

[Varsoon]

Top

[Varsoon]

You don't. You just try to play to whatever you want your wincon to be.
Basically, SURVIVE.

[Varsoon]

Well when we see two people suddenly buddy up on day 2 we can assume they are now one of the cults. And most of us probably can't even do anything about that.

I'd think people would be avoiding buddying, if anything.
What you should be more critical of is people who seem to have a hidden avenue of communication.

[Varsoon]

Who is my buddy?
Don’t want to fuck this up.

I'd LOVE to be your buddy.

I feel like all of the first cycle is going to be RVS and people just questioning how the game works, and I'm really not excited for that.

Welcome to the Drealmerz zone.

[Varsoon]

Not gonna let Cerb easymode.

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon: Would you rather play as a survivor and win the hard way, or be recruited?

This question goes to everyone who I've played with before. Well, anyone can answer it, but I'm specifically concerned with the responses of people who I'm familiar with.

Survivor is the most bum wincon in the game, but it probably isn't so awful in this game.
Obviously, I'd rather be cult, but that's because I like having knowledge.

[Varsoon]

Will someone explain the Heal/Hurt tags plz?
Oh, and Screenplay is prob one of the vigs. He hasn't exactly done a good job of hiding it.

It's pretty obvious.
We don't have a means of putting people towards a lynch, but kills might exist in this game.
HEAL can mean "Hey, I think this guy is town, but I don't want to immune-vote them."
HURT can mean "Hey, I think this guy is scum, but I don't have the means to vote/lynch them."

It's basically FoS voting.

It's basically stupid.
People should just use their words instead of made up tags that only serve to confuse and potentially obfuscate players' stances on others.

[Varsoon]

I'm glad that we have all come to the conclusion that immunity voting is easy for the cult leaders to destroy and neuter. Cerberus elaborately working himself up on how we could use immunity voting, and then in the same posts explaining how said use of immunity voting might be irrelevant, is top-notch discussion.

Hey, where's your awesome contributions that further the game towards a winnable state, Venmar?
Oh, no, just shitting on the people trying to figure this game out?
Okay.

You don't. You just try to play to whatever you want your wincon to be.
Basically, SURVIVE.

Another person with a wincon?

Nah my role doesn't say shit about winning, but the rules for the game say all the non-cult are a neutral survivor faction.
Actually, let me check something with the mod. Dogear this post, might be hella important later.

[Varsoon]

[Varsoon]

So why don't you get in line with me to throw Cerb through the fucking 'get the game started' hoop so we can, y'know, get the fuckin' game started?
As far as I am aware, we've got no reasonable way of advancing towards our wincons until then, anyway.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: varsoon

Immunity for you.

Please don't. I don't want immunity. Give it to someone who will actually fucking gamesolve, please.

If I were a cult leader I would probably recruit people who I was familiar with. Maybe we should discuss people we have experience with/would want to recruit into our cults if we were cult leaders?

1. It gives us an idea of who knows who
2. It could force cult leaders to recruit outside of familiarity which could lead to awkward interactions that stick out or at least stop them working seamlessly together

I'm familiar with Chickadee, Creature, Srceenplay, NSG, Almost50, Mutantdevle.

On reading the thread I would probably want Varsoon in my cult because of his charisma so unless we have motive to suspect he is a cult leader then it might be a good idea to give him immunity first.

VOTE: Varsoon

Pedit ok Chick...

Awww, I've got Charisma? I figure people would want me in their cult for the bants.
But seriously, don't immune me, there are better players to do that for.

[Varsoon]

Going down the playerlist of people I'm familiar with:

Porkens - Would not recruit this guy, I dunno why I keep ending up in games with him, maybe I'll learn to love instead of hate, I dunno.
Almost50 - A50's a cool boy.
Varsoon - That's me!
Vecna - Such a negative nancy, would not recruit.
northsidegal - Only sorta, and from a hydra game I did ass in, but they're alright.
Creature - I'd recruit Creature. Heck, I'd recruit him twice, make it a Creature Double Feature.
Venmar - I'm familiar with Venmar but I could tell you literally nothing about them. Uh. Uhm. They have an anime character as their avatar?
Cerberus v666 - I'd recruit the shit out of Cerb, because I love that dude, and I know he'd love playing cult. That's why I gotta immune his ass.
NicoRobin - We were in a game before, but I dunno if I'd recruit.
SnarkySnowman - Would never recruit this guy.
Gamma Emerald - Fringe, would recruit
timewarp - Would recruit, though I forget anything about this slot besides the name.
Dunkerdoodles - Same as timewarp, honestly.
Boonskiies - I've been on a team with Boonskiies before, right? Well, I know I've been in games with 'em before, never went well for me. Wouldn't touch it!

[Varsoon]

Please just immune Cerb so we can play game.

[Varsoon]

I'm so bad I got Vecna and Venmar mixed up.

[Varsoon]

NSG, voting someone into being immune is the only way we progress the game, which is the only way we progress towards a winnable gamestate.

[Varsoon]

I'm not worried about Cerb being recruited at all.
I've got an ace up my sleeve--a tell Cerb always drops as scum/third party.

[Varsoon]

FYI, I am either the best or the worst person to grant immunity to, depending on whether granting immunity means the cult will actually recruit me 100% of the time.

OK, I think I've got me a plan:

1- Vote Cerb to be immunized
2- Shoot Cerb

This plan serves two purposes:

1- Make sure no culted-Cerb is in play
2- Give Cerb the opportunity to take his desired break from Mafia ASAP

No need to applause, but I'll accept checks and/or cash.

"Let's waste our immunize!"

Fuck you, die.

[Varsoon]

"Let's waste our immunize!"

Fuck you, die.

And you think

I'm

negative?

Ay, takes one to know one.

[Varsoon]

<3
I know we were in that one Looney Toons game maybe?
I have bad memory when it comes to mafia. Foggy.
But yeah we jammed before, I just wouldn't cult you.

[Varsoon]

I mean, look, it's fair, if I get culted, chances of me blowing the whole damn thing up are pretty high. My ratio of self-destruct to wins via dumb gambiting has to be like 50/50.

Anyways, I liked Vecna's plan of running up two people to L-1 then letting someone decide who to hammer between the two, but I worry that it puts too much power in one person's hands and with two cults, there's nothing stopping them from just recruiting BOTH candidates, assuming they have infinite recruitment during play phase or whatever.
Honestly, the fact we have to even think about playing our immunize versus the cult's recruit is really awkward in the game space and I'm super curious what it looks like on the mod side of things, but whatever.

I was born in '91. I used to try to get home early so I could watch Thundercats, Swatcats, and Zoids.

[Varsoon]

It should be illegal to run a theme game and post flavor posts that correspond to actions but don't outright proclaim that an action actually happened or what the action is.
There's literally no way for us to say that drealmerz post means fuck all, but we're all acting on it as if it's mod-confirmation of two players becoming cult-immune when it's mod flavor that only sort of hints at that.
Doubly awkward is that the game didn't START with a 'Virgin' count and the entire 'virgin' mechanic wasn't a part of the public ruleset from the get-go.

This puts us in a really, really awkward position where we actually should be shooting to immunize people who even mentioned virgin stuff before the Virgin count was posted, because those are very likely the folks who were well aware of their virgin status, maybe?

[Varsoon]

@Varsoon: Is this your first time playing a drealzmer-modded game?

I won Maplewood, so no.

I just think it's a shite approach that I see in theme games from time to time and it bothers me a lot.

[Varsoon]

I signed up for this one knowing full well Drealmerz' mod style, so it's fine, I've pretty much waived worrying about anything being concrete.

[Varsoon]

Ya'll are overthinkin' this shit far too much given the info we actually have.

[Varsoon]

Please never vote Porkens for anything other than to be lynched.

[Varsoon]

Damn skippy.

[Varsoon]

Toperama

[Varsoon]

Nah, we just pick Cerb, it's fine.

[Varsoon]

If you assume cult has infinite play-phase recruits, then it's stupid to ever try to strategize around it.
Cult leader could recruit fucking anyone ever period, it's dumb, don't worry about stupid shit like that.

[Varsoon]

I've already explained why Cerb is the best target, people are just dumb.

[Varsoon]

Do you really think we're gonna outpace TWO cult recruits?

[Varsoon]

Especially when you silly cucks keep talking about how you're obviously going to switch your recruit target?

[Varsoon]

Immunize* target.
It's goof.

[Varsoon]

Ya'll motherfuckers can spend 20 more pages worrying about shit that we have no idea of how to control, or we can fucking vote someone and finish the game.

[Varsoon]

Ya'll motherfuckers can spend 20 more pages worrying about shit that we have no idea of how to control, or we can fucking vote someone and finish the game.

Is this the way you fuckin' would want us to play your games?? "Just vote ro end the day"?? Would you be pleased if we did that to a game you worked so hard on the roles, balance, creativity and flavour? I DON'T THINK SO!

Absolutely, if I create a game where there's no clear mod-confirmed reason not to vote to end the day.
Except that I can almost certainly guarantee that my games will have clear public mechanics so that players will actually be able to engage with them rather than speculate.
When our 'lynch' equivalent mechanic is so nebulous (we don't know if the player becomes immune, is culted, etc), we really don't have jack shit to work with beyond speculation.
Us voting to make someone cult-immune is so fargone from voting to lynch, I can't fathom how you'd draw a parallel.

We're in one of two boats right now, the way I see it:

Situation 1: Cults can't always recruit during the play phase due to limited mechanics.
Solution: We just immunize whoever we agree should be immune.
Situation 2: Cults can always recruit during the play phase.
Solution: We just immunize whoever we agree should be immune.

OH WOW SUCH THOUGHT NEEDED.

It's not as though this setup is crafted in a way where players need to spend time to grapple with and find solutions for public mechanics. As of this current play phase, at the start of the game, we have such little information that we should take the mechanics at face value rather than trying to outguess the mod/cults/cult mechanics.

I've spent plenty of time mulling over the particulars of the setup as far as I have concrete knowledge and it's nothing but dead ends.
There's no point in cult-hunting, because right now there's only 2 cult leaders, and even if we suss them out, we have no confirmed means of doing anything about them besides avoiding putting our immunize vote on them.
There's very little point in PR-hunting for immune players to avoid with our immunize vote, although I have yet to see any of you weaklings propose the idea that cult-immune players claim it at L-2.
There's no point in making an ordeal about who we immunize, because cult can ALWAYS just wait until the vote gets to L-1 before shooting their recruit at the wagon and, as players, we've made it fairly obvious when we're planning to run a candidate up and actually lynch them or not.

Basically, any given strategy right now is a waste of time outside of just progressing to pause phase so we can have more of a handle on the setup.
If you disagree, you're literally wrong, but, ayy, whatever, continue to waste time arguing the semantics of a 90% blind setup.

[Varsoon]

I literally don't know what the hell is going on, and there's nearly 600 posts. What do I want at the moment? A chance to get to the second play phase to see if we actually learn some shit.

And you won't have any closer of a grasp on the game if we waste another 600 posts jerking off around obfuscated mechanics.
At face value, we should vote for someone to be immune to being a part of the cult.
That's what we should use our vote for on D1 because assuming anything beyond that is all WIFOM.

[Varsoon]

I don't get why people are complaining that the plan of running someone up high to lure the recruitment to them and then all unvoting so that our immunisation actually goes through on whoever we target next is such a bad idea. [Snip]

Overall, the whole process is WIFOM.

You answered your own query there, homeboy.

Who do you think wins the WIFOM gambit--2 players who can submit an action at literally any time or those two players mixed into the rest of us, who are openly discussing if we're gonna pull out or not?

It's pointless and, if the game, by design, requires us to use voting exploitation to win, then it's a fool's errand from the start.

[Varsoon]

Top tho

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Almost50

And, ay, shitting on people is my contribution, it's the only thing that'll get those people to close their goddamn mouths, 'less they wanna get poop on their tongues

[Varsoon]

Would've been fun rn.

Just gonna copy a lot of what I recently wrote in Tarot U-Pick:

I would prefer that you don't leave voice or video messages. While I personally do enjoy them, they present a serious issue for the forum-based mafia game.
Moderators, for instance, are required to listen to/watch the entirety of every one, to ensure it does not contain any game-breaking content or rules-breaking content.
Other players can not outright quote the material without first listening to it, either.
Video and audio files are uploaded on external servers, which means they may be taken down at any point for any reason, which means some players may have access to info other do not.
Watching/listening takes time to do and also can not be done on all devices.

There's just a lot of issues with using anything but text. Images are even a bit a problem, given the multiple avenues for breaking the game that they present, though they're generally more accepted on-site.

On Images:

Spoiler:

While most images are just uploaded in a joking context, images can also be uploaded with actual game-relevant content readily present in them. In that case, it causes a problem because the images are not hosted on mafiascum and, ergo, if they are taken down from wherever they are hosted, they will no longer be available for all players to view.

Beyond that, though, lots of information can be hidden in an image's file information--it's a form of encrypting information that's against site rules if you do intentionally include game-relevant info in an image's file info, though.

Another thing that comes to mind is when images are a part of a player's personal file sharing folder; this means that any player can follow the image back to its respective imgur or photobucket or whatever folder (provided it's public access) and be able to view other images in that folder, which, of course, can be exploited. There was a game where the mod made images for each user's role PM, but titled the images with the players' names. One curious player simply retitled the image URL with a different player's name and discovered that other player's rolecard image. So, even innocuous things like that can lead to serious issues for a game.

For the most part, though, players tend to use images much less as a content delivery system and it's against site rules to encrypt data, so images almost always fall on the safe side. However, videos/recordings that players themselves make are typically intended as content delivery, so they run risks of causing game issues by design.

[Varsoon]

In my 'Varsoon Mafia' game, which was bastard, I actively encouraged one player to hide a ton of info in pictures he uploaded, as he was affecting a picture only post-restriction.

[Varsoon]

It's PAUSE, our votes don't matter.
I'm bummed out, I didn't get recruited during PLAY phase
Fuck you culties.

[Varsoon]

Doesn't matter if you losers don't believe me and let paranoia tear you up, chumps.
What are ya gonna do? Lynch me?

[Varsoon]

As far as I am aware, we're in PAUSE phase, which means we can chat but not vote or submit actions.
I have no idea when PAUSE phase ends.

[Varsoon]

i have no idea what happens and doesn't happen in this game because we're told jackshit

Not even a courtesy PM to all living players.

[Varsoon]

Well, I assume this game ends when there is no more possible conversions, so yeah.

Fixed that for you
Unless you're cult leader
At which point, I don't give a fuck because I have no means of doing dick all to stop you anyway.

[Varsoon]

It was me, I caused the pause, whacha gonna do about it?
Oh, literally nothing because there's no mechanical town agency?
Sucks to suck, I guess.

If this game works the way you think it does, then what's stopping both cults from full-claiming to avoid cross-recruiting and then just having one cult recruit at the start of Play and another recruit any time something hits L-Cult and have the cult quickhammer?
Fucking dumb.

[Varsoon]

If there really are no vigilante mechanics and the entire game is meant to be town outsmarting cult with immunize shots versus recruit shots, there's no danger in cult outting themselves so long as their recruits can happen at instant speeds during the Play phase.

Am I right or am I wrong here?

[Varsoon]

Ay, man, if I was cult, I'd recruit you D1.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Inferno

[Varsoon]

If this game works the way you think it does, then what's stopping both cults from full-claiming to avoid cross-recruiting and then just having one cult recruit at the start of Play and another recruit any time something hits L-Cult and have the cult quickhammer?

Each cult gets ONE recruit per cycle. They can fully claim and our TPRs will them claim and we will win because as long as each faction grows by one per cycle we'd always be in the lead.

Also, not ruling out the existence of a VIG yet, so they claim and get shot.

Btw, if a VIGILANTE EXISTS, please pay attention to me later on. I have 20/20 Vision. I super-duper Scooby Doo!

Yeah, so EACH cult recruits during the Play Phase.
That means there's 2 people recruited each Play Phase.
If we out our TPRs, then we're even at more a disadvantage because they can then avoid recruiting them.
And OUR faction isn't guaranteed to grow each Play Phase because Cult can just recruit whoever we're about to immunize and we have no idea if we're wasting immune shots on cult or not. We also aren't informed of when we run out of immune shots, either.

[Varsoon]

So let's do the math, homeboy:

We have ??? amount of immunize shots, we'll never know when that runs out or not.
The ONLY way that cult fails to recruit is if they either recruit one of our un-recruitable members or a cult member; Ergo, if both cults claim, they can eliminate most of what would stop them from being able to recruit.
The ONLY way we can grow our unrecruitable numbers is with a public, telegraphed vote that can end up on people who are already cult.

So there's no way, assuming these mechanics, that Cult doesn't ALWAYS win if they just claim and recruit our immunize-voted players before we hammer. As cult numbers grow, both cults can conspire to just instant-hammer any immunize-vote once their recruit is a success.

[Varsoon]

But to throw a wrench in this, for what it's worth, I know, for a fact, by design, there's at least one way to kill/remove a player from this setup.

[Varsoon]

once their recruit is a success.

But they don't get informed if their recruit succeeded until the play phase has ended. They wouldn't know if they did gain a member or not before the immunization hammer is in place.

Glad I could get you to cultslip, chump.

[Varsoon]

Glad I could get you to cultslip, chump.

Glad to know you're not even trying to read the game mechanics.

Show me where the opening posts specify the mechanic you described, homie.

[Varsoon]

PLAY - players may submit actions and vote
PAUSE - players may not submit actions or vote,

actions are resolved in order they were submitted during the PLAY state

@Varsoon: How ON EARTH would they know if their action was successful during PLAY when it only resolves IN PAUSE???????? They do submit the action during play, but it only resolves during pause, so they cannot be notified of something that didn't actually resolve yet!! Duh!

With all due respect, you are an AWESOME, MAGNIFICENT, MARVELOUS, WONDERFUL mod. But you suck as a player, dude!

Subject: Rocky Horror Picture Show - (FULL!) - PM to replace/observe

do note that during the game I won't answer questions posed to me in the thread

Yes, the immunity is permanent and becomes in-effect the moment the majority vote is placed - any player voted to majority, even if they are unable to be given immunity due to any reason (which includes the cult leader and players already recruited), will cause the game to switch to the Pause state, triggering the queue of actions submitted during Play to resolve in order.

This means if playerA is a cult leader and submits the action to recruit playerX on 12:00pm Oct.1, 2020 and the majority vote for immunity is placed on playerX 12:01pm Oct.1, 2020, the vote will cause the game to go into the Pause state, but (assume nothing in the queue prior to 12:00 interferes with playerA) the recruitment will happen before the immunization and therefor the immunization will be void.

This means nothing happens to a cult leader or cultist if they are voted to immunity, but there is no indication of if the vote is effective or not.

There is a limited # of times players may be voted to immunity, but that # is hidden due to the fact that the information could be used to track. This means that, likely, at a certain point the vote for immunity mechanic will no longer be ieffective but I will not take it out of the game so there is no indication of the pace of effective immunization.

Oh boy homie, looks like you're cult sorry
Sucks to suck.

There's literally nothing saying that cult don't know if their recruit worked or not, but, given what I've quoted, there's definitive proof that Cult can recruit before immunization.
So you're just making an assumption or you have specific cult knowledge of how recruiting works.

[Varsoon]

What a shit show this game is, eh?

[Varsoon]

Recruit me cults, if it's possible to do so(idk if it is), and your chances of winning increase pretty majorly because I can both deny the other cult from recruits, and also keep threats to you from acting.

The great Cerb doesn't know cultists lose all their previous abilities when recruited into the cult????

...you keep proving time and time again you're hyper aware of cult mechanics in this game.
It's almost as if you're one of the cult.

[Varsoon]

Pretty sure Varsoon doesn't use the wiki for his game design.

...

Notably, I don't use the wiki at all for my setup design.
I was unaware that culting people makes them lose their abilities in usual cult setups.
I've run multiple 5p Cult Vengeful setups and the cult recruit didn't null a vengeful, though that didn't matter in that setup.
Hell, if ya look at games I've run with cults (FFTactics, recently), you'll see I didn't have that as part at all--in fact, getting culted gave the player MORE abilities on top of the ones they already had!

[Varsoon]

Really beyond caring. This game is another case of Drealz making a game for his own amusement more than that of the players.

I'm miffed about not getting recruited because I'm stuck with no agency in a game of mafia.

[Varsoon]

There's maybe four players who actually get to do anything this game, as far as I can tell.
The rest of us just kind of sit around, because discovering who cult is doesn't do much for us.

[Varsoon]

Nah, don't immunize me, dudes aren't gonna recruit me now if they didn't grab me then.

[Varsoon]

(unless your plan is to permalock me into having no agency forever D:)

[Varsoon]

Not really, and I assure you I'll not be recruited.

[Varsoon]

Consider:
1. I wasn't instant-recruited despite being the best option to recruit on Day 1.
2. Now they'll wifom if I even can be recruited, leading them to avoid me because either
a) They think the other team recruited me.
b) They think I'm trying to bait the recruit because I'm immune.

[Varsoon]

I don't know why any of you chumps are assuming any level of normalcy with this game.

[Varsoon]

Yeah, 'cus when I think 'drealmerz game', I really think 'totally normal mechanics, straight from the wiki!'

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Porkens
Cool with that.

[Varsoon]

Top.

[Varsoon]

Oh man could it be that it's a nightless game where town has no agency/lynch in which there have been no flips so far?
That could never be a nightmare for activity.

[Varsoon]

It's almost as if cult could just drop off the face of the planet and lurk the game into oblivion because we have no means of punishing it.

[Varsoon]

Ay buddy.

VOTE: northsidegal

[Varsoon]

Also, I've received not a single PM since gamestart, so if that recent post was meant to indicate something, I have no fuckin' clue.

[Varsoon]

Welcome to drealmerz games.

[Varsoon]

He seems to have a mod philosophy that telling players less information will have them play in ways that he wants, but I feel that there's a line of obfuscation that he always tends to cross where players just feel clueless and, therefore, aimless.

[Varsoon]

In his previous game, I was a two-shot bulletproof role, but I wasn't told this, so I played the rest of my role very furtively because I was actually a survivor and didn't want to get killed and lose.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Porkens

I mean, eh, I've given up at this point.
Without there being very much we actually know, informing our play is nearly impossible, and even with what we do know, the only mechanic publicly available for us to proceed towards a win condition is to blindly attempt to give someone immunity--something that is never confirmed as taking place to us and something that cult can snipe out from us if they're even halfway decent.

It's just a load.

[Varsoon]

So my conclusion that only 4 people are actually 'playing' the game (in an informed state, making decisions that matter for gamestate) is true.

Also, I think I was an immune PR by default because my role says nothing about being a Virgin and I'm also the character that's Janet's boyfriend/fiance, Brad.

[Varsoon]

I've asked plenty about my role.
As far as I know, I have not been explicitly told in my role or through PM answers about my role that I am immune to recruitment.
I've assumed I am, so I tried to bait recruits for awhile, but, eh, couldn't care less anymore.

[Varsoon]

So what, though?
There's no way for us to

know

if cults are screwed or not, so let's continue to blindly fumble until the game is over.

[Varsoon]

Alight listen up. Fortunately for town, and unfortunately for the Moderator, he screwed up. I know something I shouldn't have gotten. I got a PM titled "success" even though it was deleted, so with that I CAN say that someone has an ability that I COULD'VE blocked.

And before you call out my "but you said your action took priority!", I had to ask questions about my role, and the "cycle" comment was actually flavor text, because my role does follow the queue just like the rest of you. I made the mistake of thinking it didn't.

So I'm going to assume that Chickadee's action is the one I almost "succeeded" in blocking, but she did send the action first so it was voided.

Jaydragonking, if I ever make a mod error via PM and you don't send me a PM about it first but instead come into the game and attempt to break my game over it, I will hunt you to the ends of the Earth. That shit's not acceptable. As a player, I never want to win a game off of something that's not an intended part of the game, either. Leave that shit at home.

[Varsoon]

This game got me so pooter peeved about game design and moderation that I ended just breaking down and writing a guide to modding instead of posting a bunch.
If ya'll need me, I'll be around, but I don't think I can contribute anything worth a damn to the game as it stands.

[Varsoon]

Mafia Discussion.
I'd link it but I know Dreal hates links to things

[Varsoon]

Top though.

[Varsoon]

Hey, guys, wanna run a game of mafia inside this game? Like, I'll keep votecounts and moderate/handle flips. Kill will be on a random non-scum member. Just use bold lynch tags for voting instead of normal vote tags.
Then we can have our cake and eat it, too.

[Varsoon]

Obviously, it'd have to be mountainous, nightless, and with a kill on a random townie since we can't really co-ordinate a scum PT sort of situation. Wonder what the ratios should be to balance that. Hm.

[Varsoon]

Hey, guys, wanna run a game of mafia inside this game? Like, I'll keep votecounts and moderate/handle flips. Kill will be on a random non-scum member. Just use bold lynch tags for voting instead of normal vote tags.
Then we can have our cake and eat it, too.

No, we're not doing that- it'd get so complicated that a lot of players would hate you. If you want to run a game so badly, /in to mod in a queue. Don't utilize someone else's game to do it. That's rude and offensive to take the setup they've put so much time into and power struggle its way into its own game.

I think it'd actually have really interesting implications as far as the actual cult game goes and would get players far more engaged and interested in actually reading other slots.
But ayyy whatever.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Porkens

Ayyy the best thing is that we'll not even know when we run out of immunize shots!

[Varsoon]

Top again.

[Varsoon]

I feel like I'm always gonna top, tho.

[Varsoon]

Aight then.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: SnorkySnarmon

[Varsoon]

pagetop
TAKE THAT VARSOON

Doesn't count if you bump for it or, especially, spam for it.
Have some decorum about you, lad.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: snarky
VOTE: snarky
VOTE: snarky

[Varsoon]

You know what's funny?
It's such an obvious cult gambit to recruit the least active person, then push for a failed immunize vote on 'em
You're all a bunch of chumps for falling for it.

[Varsoon]

Doesn't matter, does it?

[Varsoon]

Doesn't matter, does it?

Guess it depends on why you are voting for him as well.

If you're right, of course it does. If not, not so much.

I literally have no power to make a difference if it was true, so why care?

[Varsoon]

Switch wagons? Does it matter? They could just recruit out from beneath us before we ever hit numbers to immunize.
Also, as we learned, our Immunize isn't the only thing that ends the play phase
So it's pointless.

[Varsoon]

Then let's just use our advantage, literally whatever.

[Varsoon]

Me.

[Varsoon]

'bout time
And an actual roleflip
woaaah

[Varsoon]

What's the votecount looking like?

[Varsoon]

Top tho

[Varsoon]

What's the votecount looking like?

[Varsoon]

Let's not and say we did.

[Varsoon]

Bottom, I guess.

[Varsoon]

But top too.

[Varsoon]

I know whoever Janet is, they very likely have a PR and are unlikely to claim it.
That's pretty much all my role is, though, besides probably being immune to getting culted.

[Varsoon]

Not a bastard game, so no.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Venmar
at this point I don't think this game is fun anymore b/c we can;t even lynch people

...as opposed to that earlier point in the game when we could lynch people?
It was never a game where you could lynch anyone. You gave up that agency by signing up for the game.

[Varsoon]

VOTE: V

Pagetop too

[Varsoon]

Top again.

[Varsoon]

Aw shit, it's my scumday.

[Varsoon]

I, honestly, could not tell you, Drixx.
I have no idea who could possibly be on which team.

[Varsoon]

Scumday is like your on-site birthday--it's the anniversary of when you joined site. My joindate was exactly 5 years ago.
When it's your scumday, the site makes a little cake slice with a candle appear under your user image for the day.

[Varsoon]

@Drixx: My picks for who to block would be
-No one who has claimed a PR, though blocking the claimed vig is tempting.
-Boonskies, NikoRobin, Timewarp? Or are they already immune? I'm very lost.

[Varsoon]

@varsoon, timewarp died??

Then my vote's for you

[Varsoon]

Well then my vote's on YOU, Gamma.
And there's never any CONFIRMATION anyone's been immunized, right?

[Varsoon]

VOTE: Bonn

Voting is practically a waste regardless, mutant.

[Varsoon]

Mutant,
I don't know what your win condition is. Hell, I don't even know what mine is. All I can figure is that I win this game solely by surviving to the end.
In a game where survival is literally the ONLY thing I have to aspire towards, why the fuck would I care about anything beyond that?
I'm in a 'winning' state by goddamn default.

@Drixx: Block the person with kills unless you can be sure they'll shoot cult. Rationale for it is what I just wrote.

[Varsoon]

I'm under the impression

Stopped reading there
Keep assuming how the setup works and bumbling in the dark.
We're already past critical mass on possible recruits, so cult could just swing any 'immune' vote where they want.
Like on Boonskies.
VOTE: Boon

[Varsoon]

I do read things, I just don't make worthless assumptions about the gamestate based off of knowledge that isn't hard-confirmed.
I sincerely hope that you are on the losing side of this game, if only for your goddamn hubris.

[Varsoon]

By not caring, I ensure my continued survival.
You're a rube for caring about things.

[Varsoon]

There is no town, chumpus wumpus.

I've already presented the optimal strat for winning this games, you cards just didn't care to listen then.

Now my number one goal is to survive to endgame. So long as I'm not culted, I win if we're in the 'great' state you rhombuses keep slanting off about.

[Varsoon]

If I'm suuuuuch a chore to be around, why don't you just lynch me, then?
Oh, wait, you can't, sucks to suck.

Spend another 60 pages speculating in the dark about a game three people are actually capable of playing. IF you end up actually wanting advice on how to win this or worthwhile input from my end, I'll be around, but I'm not going to be a part of the masturbatory peanut gallery that is the entire going-ons of the usual 'play' phase thread.

[Varsoon]

Cult Leader A
Cult Leader B
Survival Faction PR

There's a chance there's a second Survival Faction PR that actually has some degree of game control as well.
Consider the previous setup from this mod; Maplewood Village. In that game, which was a revision of a setup he liked and ran before, featured only a handful of roles that actually had a level of control over the gamestate and knowledge of what was going on. Everyone else was left blindly ambling about, hoping they could win with what little role info and setup info they had. Mutantdevle tried to make the case that mafia IS a game of working out a solution to a problemset with unknown variables, but there's a huge disparity between the public knowledge and power balance in a regular game of mafia compared to the kinds of games Drealmerz likes to design.

Now, Cerb, you should know I don't like putting in work. I hate it. I get good (maybe, arguably good, but likely not) ideas but executing them always feels like a pain.
Go back through and see which players were willing to vote for any immunize target and who did not vote for anyone. You'll likely find your Cult Leaders in the will-vote-for-anyone bracket during Day 1 or 2, but once they start building up their cult, they are far less likely to vote to immunize people already on their side. If you go check the vote patterns, which you'll have to actually do by sorting through the game thread because Drealmerz posts a VC about once every blue moon (okay lol we've gotten 20 VCs within 72 pages, so it's not TERRIBLE but it's bad if you care to use to calculate what I'm proposing).

As far as WHO the cult leaders are, I don't think they're anyone who claimed power so far, so long as we're assuming the vig is town-sided.

[Varsoon]

Oh, but, yeah, you slackers, keep insisting 'Varsoon is not reading or following the game he is just antitown'.
I'm plenty present. I'm snagging pagetops to ensure that I at least stay read up.
It's just that there is far too little agency or incentive given to me to gamesolve, given what we definitively know about the setup.
Consider furthermore that, since I could be recruited at any time, that gamesolving AGAINST cult could end up being my own undoing, I'm further put in a position where actively playing the game to work towards a traditional 'town' victory is a lot of effort towards a goal that had no clear cut indications of helping me achieve my own wincon and, actually, may be detrimental against my wincon should I ever get culted.

I've got more cards that I haven't played and more thoughts that I won't post until post-game, very likely. I'm playing the way that I am because it ensures MYSELF the highest likelihood of victory. Don't like it? Lynch me.

[Varsoon]

I know I bumped it, but top.

[Varsoon]

Porkens lol more like Dorkens

[Varsoon]

Oh, but, yeah, you slackers, keep insisting 'Varsoon is not reading or following the game he is just antitown'.
I'm plenty present. I'm snagging pagetops to ensure that I at least stay read up.
It's just that there is far too little agency or incentive given to me to gamesolve, given what we definitively know about the setup.
Consider furthermore that, since I could be recruited at any time, that gamesolving AGAINST cult could end up being my own undoing, I'm further put in a position where actively playing the game to work towards a traditional 'town' victory is a lot of effort towards a goal that had no clear cut indications of helping me achieve my own wincon and, actually, may be detrimental against my wincon should I ever get culted.

I've got more cards that I haven't played and more thoughts that I won't post until post-game, very likely. I'm playing the way that I am because it ensures MYSELF the highest likelihood of victory. Don't like it? Lynch me.

You're stupid
mutant has constantly been telling you "no youre wrong survivors don't win by getting to endgame". If you really think that's wrong I can fetch a rule that proves mutant right.

You're either incredibly dense or unbelievably stuck on an incorrect assumption here.
I

know

that I win if I am, alive or dead, at endgame and the survivor faction is granted a win if I'm still a part of them. I am not claiming that I am a single survivor that loses if dead.
If it makes you feel better to call other people stupid and continue prattling about in a 'game' that you have no control over, by all means, go for it.

[Varsoon]

@Boon: You're @Immunization(but-not-really-maybe-and-we-would-never-know)-1. CLAIM

ftfy

[Varsoon]

Or one could ask the mod. ... Survivors win, when no cult has the possibility to outnumber the survivors. (paraohrased what the mod said when I asked)
That means, that the game ends when all remaining players are either in a cult or are immune and no killing shots are left.

Lift quoted it for me nice
What htis means, Varsoon, is that there is a different wincon than the one you seem to believe for the survivors.

I can't fathom how you can be so insistently offbase and outright wrong about so many things.
I really hope that you play very well for the survivor faction, lead them to an assured victory, but then get culted before the victory happens, rendering you a loser. I think that'd be the greatest irony.

[Varsoon]

The things you're taking umbrage with here are literally not even extant.

[Varsoon]

You're being snobby and elitist about literally nothing.

[Varsoon]

Top again tho.

[Varsoon]

No, but, please, lead my side of the game to whatever victory you think is obtainable through rhetoric alone.
Again, all I have to do is avoid getting killed or culted in order to ensure that we have the highest likelihood of winning. If you can't figure out the implications of that sentence, I'm sorry, but I'm not tilting any more than that.

[Varsoon]

Why would you ever out that sort of information?

[Varsoon]

Has anyone else thought about the fact we have a limited number of cult immunity votes (as seen in first post)?

Every day this game goes on, yes.

Given the fact that we're not told when we run out and we continue voting despite running out, it's the sort of thing where we just kind of can't play around it whatsoever.

[Varsoon]

Awhile back, one of my first interactions on-site with drealmerz included him talking up both his skills at playing the game as well as his ideas for setups.
I recall a deal of frustration at his hubris, but I ended up pocketing that. After all, if drealmerz could prove to be a really great player and moderator, that'd be a boon to the site.
While there are those of you who are saying they've sworn off ever signing up for something Drealmerz runs again, I'm of the mind that I'll sign up for anything he mods.
It's not because I've liked any of his games. Here and in Maplewood Village, there were so many critical parts of the game design and moderation that I fundamentally disagree with.
It's because I want drealmerz to grow into a great moderator.
It's for that reason that I hope Drealmerz is able to take the criticisms levied here and work forward into making an even better game in the future.

[Varsoon]

That's exactly why I hope that Drealmerz grows from this experience; there's a lot of really great ideas here.
First of all, I hope that he continues to make games.
Then I hope that he takes some of the common critiques here and from Maplewood to heart.
And then I hope he moves forward and makes a game that's exciting and unique.

[Varsoon]

Oh, yes, absolutely, the way that Drealmerz thinks of and interacts with his players needs to change--that's part of what I mean when I say that I hope he grows from the criticism given here.