Product Placement Mafia (Game over!)

[northsidegal]

hi

so i'm not really convinced on a t-bone wagon. from what i remember from team mafia mathdino went through a lot of frustration with t-bone that i've tried to take into account and so i've been townreading him. i don't remember much of the specifics of that game to go into a really in-depth explanation but i haven't really seen him as scum. also, i definitely agreed with what he said about brian skies, so if anything i'd prefer to vote there.

i'll probably go through and respond to some things now.

See NSG this doesn’t help me, but I assume you WILL give me something to work with so I will wait :3

anyone familiar enough with my meta should easily have me as town this game already

are you really going to force me to actually respond to gamma's case

[Alisae]

Ali, have you looked at NSG yet or what?

I’ve been putting it off and I kinda want to know who TRs her because if its like Firebringer and people who play with NSG and are more familiar then I am but on a cursory look I kinda just think she’s town.

[Alisae]

hi

so i'm not really convinced on a t-bone wagon. from what i remember from team mafia mathdino went through a lot of frustration with t-bone that i've tried to take into account and so i've been townreading him. i don't remember much of the specifics of that game to go into a really in-depth explanation but i haven't really seen him as scum. also, i definitely agreed with what he said about brian skies, so if anything i'd prefer to vote there.

i'll probably go through and respond to some things now.

See NSG this doesn’t help me, but I assume you WILL give me something to work with so I will wait :3

anyone familiar enough with my meta should easily have me as town this game already

are you really going to force me to actually respond to gamma's case

Why you didn’t help me: I need something to refute against
Why I think you will give me something to work with: I think you would give me a reason on why T—Bone is town so I can then look at it, consider it, and then agree or disagree with it.

[northsidegal]

and i don't really feel like 1059 has many points where i can look at them and solidly say "yeah, this definitely shows t-bone is scum". sure, his interaction with cheeky was weird, but i think that's par from the course from what i remember of mathdino agonizing over team mafia? i could definitely see what you're saying with the hyung thing but on it's own i don't think the pre-flip is a very strong reason to vote someone. the manual votecounter "busywork" thing was bad, though.

[northsidegal]

ah, i misunderstood what you were saying i think

[Brian Skies]

Okay let's talk about T-Bone.

26 is a wolf post

209 Can't say for sure if this is something that pinged me while I was somewhat following along because I have a memory of a fucking goldfish, but I kinda feel like this post is agenda based?
It was that or 219 because THIS is a complete fucking wolfclaim mostly because I don't feel like T-Bone here is pushing a read, but moreso just building up justification for their FoS on Cheeky.

703 + 709 really comes off as an interaction with a partner btw.
The vote in off itself seems like a good justified vote, like there is 0 read T-Bone is pushing here. Its all fact.
Also as I mentioned above, I think this is a moment where T-Bone thought his wolfbuddy was going to get flashwagoned for really scummy behavoir so he paniced and placed a bussing vote, and once he saw that wasn't the case, he moved off of it and stopped.

911 Hate the interaction with NSG here, it feels like an extremely easy way to continue justifying their read on them.

950 Okay this is a really fucking good post that I am willing to sheep if T-Bone flips town, and I agree with most of it actually, when I glanced at Brian's post, it really did feel like he was digging for things. Like especially this coming from Brian

Buries this in a spoiler tag, but doesn't go into why he townreads Cheeky or fight against her lynch in any way.

reads like a wolfclaim to me.
And in fact, Brian is saying that he isn't seeing T-Bone's stances, but T-Bone has been provding some stances, he has been pushing NSG and Cheeky and maybe a bit of Pine....
that's it from what I grasped of T-Bone's ISO?

Anyhow.

Look dude, we need to talk.
Who's town? I know very clearly that you wolfread a bunch of people or whatever, I don't care about that, and if I missed who you actually townread on a glance of your ISO, let me know and point me towards that direction please.
And why did you move off of hyung?

Yeah, I was shamelessly digging for things.

I don't understand why you think that quote from me is a wolfclaim though.

I can agree with or see where you're coming from with some of your other points though.

I don't understand what you mean by TBone 'continuing to justify his read on NSG.' For the most part, I felt that was the first time he mentioned anything resembling a read on NSG. But instead of pursuing that point, he went after AA9 (who after an quick meta dive, I'm even less confident in flipping scum than before).

[northsidegal]

i think if t-bone is scum he's just been playing a really... weird? scumgame. like, he only chooses to focus on cheeky for a large part of the start of the game and then when i confront him with how he's doing that we just go into a really weird discussion / debate thing. it didn't feel like a scum way of handling things. i'm not sure if that's how he plays as scum but i think i have reason to believe that that's how he plays as town.

[Alisae]

Brian I interpreted that as a wolfclaim because I feel like thats an angle that a wolf would use to push T—Bone.

Tbh I thought he had a read prior to that on NSG like I was mostly going through that ISO to find the bits of posts I saw while I was following along and said “OMG T—BONE IS A FUCKING WOLF”
So honestly the “continueing” part could totally be invalid.
But the justification part isn’t invalid, because that post comes off as justification and pushing a fact and not really a read.

[Alisae]

Also I don’t think meta is a tool that will help with T—Bone because he constantly says that meta is trash and from when I’ve heard him rant on sitechat about meta awhile back, I am interpreting T—Bone as the type of player that is extremely self-aware and can fake his meta.

[northsidegal]

Also I don’t think meta is a tool that will help with T—Bone because he constantly says that meta is trash and from when I’ve heard him rant on sitechat about meta awhile back, I am interpreting T—Bone as the type of player that is extremely self-aware and can fake his meta.

are the "meta is trash" players the ones who actually care the most about their own meta and manipulating it? if anything i figure it would be the opposite. why bother manipulating your meta if you discredit meta reads in every game anyways?

and although i guess i'm making comments on meta, just in general i don't think the way he's reacted to some of my interactions has felt like scum. the whole thing with me confronting him about only pushing on cheeky is a good example of that, i feel. like, let's say you're scum in that situation: you've been basically tunnelling on either a townie or on your buddy for the entire beginning of the game (but tunnelling in a weird way), and someone calls you out on that. what do you do? things like doubling down on the read, trying to deflect elsewhere, or OMGUSing come to mind, at least to me (in my admittedly limited experience of being scum). the way he reacted which i can't even come up with a short description for just doesn't seem like something scum would do in that situation.

[Alisae]

What I do is I address the concerns as either alignment.

[Brian Skies]

NSG, when was the last time you were scum?

[northsidegal]

here's another example, i guess (i never intended to start hard defending t-bone like this but -shrug-) - t-bone just laughs at cheeky's inconsistencies. does scum react like this? i would figure that scum would just take the opportunity to start or strengthen a push on cheeky by quoting them along with a vote or something and being like "look at these obvious contradictions, cheeky is just making things up as it suits her", whereas i could definitely see town seeing something they see as an obvious inconsistency and just pointing it out and laughing.

Spoiler:

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Tbone

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Pine

But it is hilarious.

[northsidegal]

NSG, when was the last time you were scum?

i believe it was micro 793: double investigation. i had 0 posts before i got lynched.

my wiki is almost completely up to date, like three games i haven't put there yet i think. (haven't lost a game in a while, self-plug!!)

[Alisae]

Yes wolves can react like that.
I think you are underestimating how big T—Bone’s wolf range is.

And my arguement isn’t people who hate meta can’t fake their meta, its T-Bone has the ability to fake his meta.
It’s different because I am talking about T-Bone.

[Alisae]

Like the way I am interpreting those laughs is him saying that without actually saying it.

[CheekyTeeky]

here's another example, i guess (i never intended to start hard defending t-bone like this but -shrug-) - t-bone just laughs at cheeky's inconsistencies. does scum react like this? i would figure that scum would just take the opportunity to start or strengthen a push on cheeky by quoting them along with a vote or something and being like "look at these obvious contradictions, cheeky is just making things up as it suits her", whereas i could definitely see town seeing something they see as an obvious inconsistency and just pointing it out and laughing.

Spoiler:

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Tbone

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Pine

But it is hilarious.

NSG that's exactly what Scum!Thor does. I find it scummier for someone to point out inconsistencies without taking a stance, moreso than a player who pushes it as something explicitly scummy. If you subtly discredit someone you basically shrug off responsibility because the people you influence, to look at a player more as scum, will be responsible.

[Alisae]

i find pushing inconsistencies as wolfy in general

[northsidegal]

Yes wolves can react like that.
I think you are underestimating how big T—Bone’s wolf range is.

And my arguement isn’t people who hate meta can’t fake their meta, its T-Bone has the ability to fake his meta.
It’s different because I am talking about T-Bone.

perhaps, i really don't have much experience with him as a player. i guess i still think the reasons to townread him outweigh / make more sense than the reasons to have him as scum.

here's another example, i guess (i never intended to start hard defending t-bone like this but -shrug-) - t-bone just laughs at cheeky's inconsistencies. does scum react like this? i would figure that scum would just take the opportunity to start or strengthen a push on cheeky by quoting them along with a vote or something and being like "look at these obvious contradictions, cheeky is just making things up as it suits her", whereas i could definitely see town seeing something they see as an obvious inconsistency and just pointing it out and laughing.

Spoiler:

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Tbone

Are you guys just PLing me for being a VI or do you care to add reasons?

I like wagons. You refused to join mine on brass and used a yucky FoS instead, so I'm joining yours. You have like 3 or 4 votes...why care so much?

Because I can't assess votes I don't get reasons for. Why are you shading so much?

VOTE: Pine

But it is hilarious.

NSG that's exactly what Scum!Thor does. I find it scummier for someone to point out inconsistencies without taking a stance, moreso than a player who pushes it as something explicitly scummy. If you subtly discredit someone you basically shrug off responsibility because the people you influence, to look at a player more as scum, will be responsible.

-shrug-

is it what scum t-bone does?

[CheekyTeeky]

So in TM was Tbone scum?

[Alisae]

No he was town

[CheekyTeeky]

Then I don't know why NSG thinks she can argue what Scum T-bone doesn't do based on town meta. I think if we can all agree on a lynch we're probably going in a better direction though.

[Alisae]

That is a good post.

[CheekyTeeky]

Is there anyone besides T-bone or Gemerald you two want to lynch?

[northsidegal]

Then I don't know why NSG thinks she can argue what Scum T-bone doesn't do based on town meta. I think if we can all agree on a lynch we're probably going in a better direction though.

i explicitly said that it wasn't based specifically on meta, moreso based on a general idea of how i expect scum to play vs how i expect town to play.

Is there anyone besides T-bone or Gemerald you two want to lynch?

i would vote brian skies.