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Post Post #883 (isolation #0) » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:58 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Hi guys. So, my first impressions are that BuJaber, CheekyTeeky, and GreenLiquid are town. From POE, I have it down to Iconeum, Korina's slot, and Lovebird.
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Post Post #900 (isolation #1) » Wed Apr 18, 2018 8:51 pm

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I'm going to read more thoroughly from the start and just post as I read with more consolidated reads on everyone after I finish.

PAGES 1-13
(first half of D1)

I agreed with Lovebird's townread on Rask in and ruling out Rask/Green as scum together. I also thought Lovebird's naked Iconeum vote in was pretty understandable given Iconeum's weak entrance post.

Iconeum's opening is pretty bad. In , he just paraphrases Bujaber's and doesn't add anything relevant to the discussion. Then,
after
GreenLiquid questions BuJaber in , Iconeum does an about-turn and votes BuJaber for the "contradiction." It feels like Iconeum is trying to go with the flow and piggyback off of other people's questioning. If he genuinely thought BuJaber's had a contradiction, I think he would have asked about it when he first read the post.

Quoting this so people can follow what I'm talking about:
In post 42, BuJaber wrote:This is all fishy to me.

Prediction: one of GL, Lovebird, Raska is scum.

Don't think scum!love would be so eager to TR someone so early. It is weird and attracts too much attention.

But seriously this whole discussion seems irrelevant; why would checking profiles be AI? Why is being bored AI? Why is being anxious to start the game AI?
This is the supposed "contradiction" where BuJaber seemingly both town and scumreads Lovebird.
In post 43, Iconeum wrote:It's a strange conversation to have, but even stranger to drag it out.
I like Buj's observation here.
This is Iconeum's next post where he doesn't say anything about it or engage with BuJaber's reads focusing instead on the more non-alignment relevant part of BuJaber's post.
In post 48, GreenLiquid wrote:Why is Lovebird in your scum pool if you don't think she would have acted that way as scum?
In post 59, Iconeum wrote:Bujabers contradiction is the most scummy thing so far imo, let's see where that leads us

VOTE: Bujaber
Then sheeps GreenLiquid when he brings up that point.

Other thoughts:

Cheeky entering the game by trying to derail the Not_Mafia wagon was pretty town. I think scum in her place would be more likely to either agree with the wagon or remain weakly skeptical of the Not_Mafia wagon to look good upon his flip but not actively oppose it. I mostly townread Cheeky's forcefulness here, it genuinely seemed like she wanted to change the gamestate away from what would have been a free mislynch. Her reads also align with where my current POE is at: I think Icon/Korina's slot is the most likely team but more on that in a bit. She's also making a lot of waves trying to completely change the direction of the game rather than go with the flow.

The GreenLiquid townread comes from the fact that he's looking beyond the surface when he engages BuJaber. BuJaber's grouping strategy is something that feels counter-intuitive to how most people play and something that scum could very easily push on to look busy but the amount GreenLiquid is second-guessing himself comes across like he actually cares about BuJaber's alignment. For example, in he argues that the POE strategy doesn't seem useful but instead of using that as ammunition against BuJaber, calls him an "idiosyncratic townie." The fact that it happens when he is struggling to develop any strong reads at all is even more townie because the points he made against BuJaber could easily be used as excuses to manufacture a scumread if he wanted to. He does end up voting BuJaber eventually but again undermines his own read in before pushing him again with actually good reasons in . In general, I also think GreenLiquid is being particularly cautious in trying not to lynch based on playstyle and second-guessing himself intensely. I don't think it's something scum would have as a top priority over just posting reads that they can plausibly fake.
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Post Post #902 (isolation #2) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:50 am

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PAGES 14-27
(second half of D1)

Regarding the mutual scumreads of Lovebird and Iconeum, I townread Lovebird and scumread Iconeum. This is mostly because even though Lovebird barely explains her push and reads in general, they intuitively make sense. I mentioned the RVS Rask townread, Iconeum vote and continued push in my previous post. I didn't think her switch to Not_Mafia in and back to Iconeum in was scummy at all. It looked like she went with the consensus wagon when her Iconeum-push wasn't gaining traction. But when CheekyTeeky replaced in and pushed Iconeum, she realized that now that she had support, voting her scumread was a better option. The Rask vote after townreading doesn't bother me much because it came after a genuine engagement with CheekyTeeky and I buy the explanation in . I didn't realize this while skimming the game and ISO's but reading the flow of the game, Lovebird comes across as decently town.

My biggest issue with Iconeum is that he's often piggybacking off of other people's content and going with the flow of the game. This is especially true of GreenLiquid. For example, in , he recycles GreenLiquid's point about being less certain of a BuJaber scumread because he's sticking to his guns. His initial vote on BuJaber also came after GreenLiquid pointed out the "contradiction." Then his is also using GreenLiquid's points to try and get a wagon going on Lovebird. I think he's trying to pocket a strong townie by aligning himself with GL.

Iconeum's end of day posts where he and CheekyTeeky are both active felt like he was trying to mimic her reactions to events. His turn on Rask in to with reasons parroted from CheekyTeeky who accused Rask of "shopping for a lynch" in is suspicious. The lack of engagement and just rehashing points comes across a lot more opportunistic than Lovebird's Rask vote which came after an actual discussion with CheekyTeeky where Lovebird was being convinced. Iconeum's also feels like a rephrasing of CheekyTeeky's . Potentially setting up BuJaber/Lovebird as lynches if one flips town and the unvote almost feels like he thought people would townread BuJaber's ATE and felt like he needed to hop off. Reaction in to Cheeky's fake-hammer; if he was so confident in Lovebird flipping scum, I don't think he'd have that much of an issue with the hammer.

Cheeky and GreenLiquid continue to be town, and Christopher hasn't posted much. His content is mostly mediocre but it was a combination of Korina's posting (more in the next section) and POE that leads me to scumread him.

I thought BuJaber's reaction upon almost being lynched was pretty towny unless he's really good at scum. It takes quite a bit of nerve for scum to assert that this is one of their best towngames D1 whereas it's easily something I can see myself saying as town. He's also right that he's made a lot of pushes and generated a lot of content. This is even more true from my skim of D2.

So, CheekyTeeky -> GreenLiquid -> Lovebird -> BuJaber are townreads. Iconeum is a scumread. I think his partner is Christopher/Korina's slot since I townread everyone else. I'll point out the scummy posts from Korina in my next post although it's a much weaker read than Iconeum. Heading to bed so this will be tomorrow. Feel free to engage with the content I posted so far.
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Post Post #904 (isolation #3) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:01 am

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You could always address my actual points as opposed to claim that I'm scumreading you for trying to sort BuJaber.
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Post Post #923 (isolation #4) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:50 pm

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In post 920, Iconeum wrote:Stop scumreading me if ur town. The case on me is just bad. I only had low content early D1. Focus elsewhere.
I'm not getting lynched today.
Will respond to the rest in a bit but I really don't buy this soft-claim here. I think we have enough concensus on Iconeum being scum that having a claim might be a good idea.
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Post Post #934 (isolation #5) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:13 pm

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Main thing I want to respond to is GL's post:

@GreenLiquid, it seems like our major area of disagreement is Lovebird. Let's discuss then what you think her scum motives are. Which moves in her posting do you think could come from conscious scum? I'll go over your ISO to check but if you're online, I'd rather talk about it in real time. Would you still consider Lovebird if Iconeum flips scum? I think the fact that Lovebird has focused pretty intensely on Iconeum clears them as partners even if you aren't convinced individually. Can you remind me what your read on Korina is?
In post 910, CheekyTeeky wrote:BlackVoid you do realise you're allowed to vote your strongest scum read right?
I'd rather be the one to declare intent if that's cool. I have my reasons and I'll explain them in time but bear with me here.
In post 931, CheekyTeeky wrote:BlackVoid can you please give scum team predictions based on Ico flipping either alignment? GL and Bu same question.
Pretty sure Iconeum is scum and Korina is the partner. If Iconeum flips town, I'd have to do some major re-evaluation but I can't see how I'm wrong. The "parroting" tell is something I've found extremely reliable and almost never comes from town. But as a thought experiment, if Icon is town, I'd still say Korina because I townread everyone else. I'd be less sure on my townread of Lovebird if it turns out she was pushing a townie all game but she still seems really genuine.
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Post Post #935 (isolation #6) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:15 pm

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In post 930, Iconeum wrote:Lol. Doesn't change much. If I was scum I'd claim cop or doc to draw out the actual PR so I'm not claiming anything specifically.
The other PR knows what to do tonight.
No, this is exactly what you'd do as scum because if you claim either, you'll get cc'd and the chances of people believing you over the other person are pretty small. This way, you can leave some ambiguity, get a town lynch in Lovebird and survive to the next phase because neither PR can cc you because they don't know that you can't be the other one.
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Post Post #938 (isolation #7) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:23 pm

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Who did you protect N1?
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Post Post #941 (isolation #8) » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:25 pm

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I was expecting scum to fake-claim cop here since that's the role people most likely to not be lynched today so that doc claim is throwing me off. I think everyone should confirm whether or not they are the doc so we can see if there are any counterclaims.

I'm not the doc.
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Post Post #946 (isolation #9) » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:50 am

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@Lovebird, I'd really like to see your reaction to the claim since you've been active on site in the past hour or so.
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Post Post #954 (isolation #10) » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:04 am

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He's not clear yet since GreenLiquid, and Korina's slot never said they weren't doc. But upon re-reading, I thought the way Icon was responding to me seemed genuine. So, I'm pretty much starting to accept that I was wrong on at least one of my four townreads so I'm reading through again to see where I could have gone wrong. Need to head to work right now but I'm going to check out Lovebird's scumgame tonight and post thoughts. The good thing about having an empty slot is that we're not in any rush to end the day.
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Post Post #957 (isolation #11) » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:02 am

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Reading through Lovebird's Forest Fire game as an arsonist, I do see a lot of similarities. She started out with a very plausible-sounding townread on a townie and then tunneled another townie (Ethos) until he got lynched. I feel that the reasoning was somewhat weaker than her push on Iconeum here although I'm not sure how much of this is just me subconsciously filling in the blanks for her Iconeum scumread because I agreed with it. Pre-empting Lovebird's response, no I haven't read a towngame to compare. But I'm not saying the similarity is necessarily scummy. It is the fact that she did most of the things I townread her for in a game as an arsonist means that the basis for my townread is flawed and I need to start again from scratch.
In post 953, Lovebird wrote:Definitely need to wait for replacement. I still feel like ico is scum.
Why would he fake-claim doc? If he's scum trying to draw out a PR, it is the cop that he needs outed today so his partner can shoot them at night. A VT claim might allow him survive if he sways people away from his lynch. A doc claim is the worst of both worlds. He guarantees that he's going to get lynched when he ultimately gets cc'd AND the scum still don't know who the cop is to shoot tonight. So, I'm not really expecting a cc at this point.

I don't want to sit and wait for the replacement without making progress in discussing the game. Once the replacement happens, we only have 48 hours to secure a lynch and with the pace of this game, that's not much time to get good reads. I'd rather treat Iconeum as conf-town and work from there to gamesolve. If it turns out he did for whatever reason claim doc as scum, then we'll know instantly once the replacement happens (or if GL counterclaims) so no harm done.

I'm a little disappointed that you didn't realize this and are continuing to hold onto your scumread there. You've been pretty cagey with your thought process in general, help me out here by explaining stuff more.
In post 397, Lovebird wrote:Lol. That comes from me as town. As scum I make up hard reads to push, like eth0s in the treegame.
The thing is, you've been doing exactly this for most of the game, except replace Ethos with Iconeum.

Why did you think BuJaber and Iconeum were likely partners as of ?

I don't understand why you found Raskol suspicious (I'm talking about your ). He voted Cheeky and called her scum with or without Not_Mafia. I'm not sure how the post you quoted translates to him giving up or being more likely to be scum. If you are talking about what you said in (that Rask was there but didn't post), that's a pretty weak reason to switch from a viewpoint of Icon being lockscum with BuJaber as a likely partner to suddenly demanding a claim from Rask. That fits in more with scum trying to get as many claims out as possible.
In post 470, Lovebird wrote:I voted NM after coming back from getting prodded because nobody cared about lynching my scumread and the game wasn't moving, needed a lynch.
The problem with this is that throughout D1 you haven't actively tried to persuade people that Iceoneum was scum. Most of the time you talked about him was in response to people questioning your read/vote. I need a little more from you here. How are Iconeum's post "empty?" What is the scum motivation in his posts? I sort of skated over this because I thought you were seeing similar things that I was but now that I think he's most likely not scum, I want to see you explain the read in your own words.
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Post Post #958 (isolation #12) » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:11 am

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I have a really hard time seeing GreenLiquid, CheekyTeeky or BuJaber as mafia here. I planned to re-read D2 tonight but I've been awake all night so this will have to be tomorrow.

I'm not sure I can rule out Lovebird/Korina at this point. I see the logic there and thought they were unlikely partners but the scenario of Korina replacing into a scumslot and seeing his partner under pressure and distancing is not really unlikely. If he went to bat for Lovebird, they would have been more likely to have been pegged as a team.

GreenLiquid has consistently been pushing Lovebird so that team is unlikely. BuJaber's interactions point away from a team as well. CheekyTeeky's interactions aren't that conclusive but I've been townreading her still. I'll explain reasons for all these tomorrow. I'm not sure what other team works. Would like some thoughts on that.
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Post Post #961 (isolation #13) » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:13 am

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What do you mean it's easy to reason Ico is the doc when I know he's the doc? Why would he fake-claim doc as opposed to cop here? I don't get why it's necessary to waste an indefinite amount of time waiting for a replacement to confirm Iconeum when it's very likely he's town to begin with simply because it's almost always optimal for scum to fake-claim cop. 48 hours is a pretty short time and people will probably check in once or twice.
In post 931, CheekyTeeky wrote:BlackVoid can you please give scum team predictions based on Ico flipping either alignment? GL and Bu same question.
Also, considering this I don't think asking
you
for scumteam predictions on the basis on Icon flipping town is unreasonable?
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Post Post #990 (isolation #14) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:20 am

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I'm catching up on the last few pages right now but I'm here. What reads do you want to discuss?
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Post Post #991 (isolation #15) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:21 am

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I'll respond to BuJaber's question in a bit.
In post 980, CheekyTeeky wrote:I really didn't like how quickly BV accepted the doc claim.
I think he's town because claiming doc as scum is worst of both worlds, almost guaranteeing their lynch without outing the PR they need to take out tonight. Do you disagree with my logic or you just think I'd be more biased against Iconeum since I was scumreading him even if the logic is good?

I don't think I was quick to accept it. I was surprised at the doc claim because I thought he was going to claim cop. The logic was there even then although I wasn't emotionally ready to accept he was town until I slept on it and thought about it. Then it became obvious in hindsight. What exactly are you referring to when you claim this because that's actually the opposite of what happened. My acceptance of his claim was gradual over a span of a few days.
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Post Post #993 (isolation #16) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:48 am

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I don't feel strongly about anyone at the moment. I initially thought Iconeum and your slot were the scumteam because I was townreading everyone else and that turned out to be wrong so I'm trying to re-assess whether one or two of my townreads are wrong. Lovebird is the one I felt was likely to be scum after realizing Iconeum was town. I explain most of it in . I also didn't like her reaction to the claim. She posted elsewhere on site for a while after Iconeum claimed and only came into the thread when I called her out in . After that, still calling him scum felt like she was stalling for time. There is no reason for him to fake-claim doc as scum and putting off re-evalution until your slot was replaced felt like she just wanted to coast until the deadline is imminent. (The way the deadline worked is that as long as your slot was empty, deadline was suspended but you entered the game, it is now 48 hours).
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Post Post #995 (isolation #17) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:57 am

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But more than activity, when she did return to the thread, I don't like that she wanted to hold off on re-evaluating her reads until your slot was replaced. CheekyTeeky did this too to a certain extent.
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Post Post #996 (isolation #18) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:02 am

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I guess BuJaber is the slot I feel the strongest about. He's been leading the discussion and gamesolving. The biggest thing that sticks out to me are the twists and turns in his reads. For instance there was no reason to push back on Iconeum in when he was pushing elsewhere and Iconeum was townreading him. He's pushing in too many directions and potentially antagonizing many players.

Can you go more into your Lovebird townread?
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Post Post #998 (isolation #19) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:21 am

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From , I definitely got the impression that the reason for the wait was to see if you were going to cc Iconeum but I could have conflated that some of my discussion with CheekyTeeky.

As to her end-of-D1 posts, she has an explanation that she was compromising on other wagons while still scumreading Iconeum. But I thought some of her moves (putting Rask at L-1 and asking for a claim in ) make more sense as scum trying to out roles.

Rask reacted in a way that implied he had a PR in the next few posts (specifically . Lovebird then unvoted. I'm actually wondering whether the Rask kill was because mafia thought that he was a PR. A lot of people debated why he was killed but that mostly centered around whether his reads were accurate. If I'm right, that points to Lovebird since she backed off of Rask based on those few posts.
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Post Post #1003 (isolation #20) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:32 am

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I'm talking about the same post. I interpreted it as waiting to see if you cc Iconeum since she still called Iconeum scum in that post. But I could see it as just wanting your slot to post in general.

So, when you were reading the thread and seeing Icon and Lovebird tunnel each other, your impression was that they were both town?
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Post Post #1006 (isolation #21) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:43 am

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In post 1002, CheekyTeeky wrote:He claimed on the 20th, you accepted on the 21st - my point isn't so much about literal time as much as there were still slots to CC. I also didn't like you intercepting his claim after he softed "of course scum would claim to draw out a counter"

To me the whole scenario went like this:

- Ico @ L-2 says "I'm never getting lynched today"
- BV says "of course scum would claim to get a CC and draw out PR"
- Ico claims PR not specifying which
- BV continues pressure
- Ico claims doc.
- BV asked who he protected (not sure why this matters to town, seems like scum trying to get more info)
- 3 people say not CC
- BV accepts doc claim saying blah blah logic and he felt genuine after rereading.

I'm struggling to buy the whole interaction and 180 as coming from town.
It doesn't really matter how many slots haven't cc'd him yet though. The "blah blah" logic that I'm talking about is that it makes no sense for scum to claim doc here - something that you haven't refuted or disagreed with over multiple posts. So, I'm asking again, can you refute the logic?

I expected scum in his position to claim cop for obvious reasons. When he softed, I thought he was softing cop and called him out on it. I was hard-scumreading Iconeum at this time so I wasn't going to accept a PR claim without him specifying which.

I asked him who he protected in case there was a cc and we needed to decide which claim was more credible. Asking immediately means he has less time to read through his posts and stances and claim to protect someone that it makes sense to protect.

On Thursday night (), I said the doc claim was throwing me off. At that point I was confused about what to believe. On Friday afternoon (), I started re-reading to see how his posts make sense from a town-Iconeum perspective. By Saturday morning (), it pretty much sunk in that there was really no reason for scum in his position to fake-claim doc. I was ready to treat him as conf-town and continue gamesolving from that angle.

But please explain what's wrong with my logic instead of calling it "blah blah" logic.
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Post Post #1010 (isolation #22) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:49 am

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In post 949, CheekyTeeky wrote:Oh missed that. If Ico is cleared then Im happy lynching Love.
Can you elaborate on this? I thought you were townreading Lovebird.
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Post Post #1012 (isolation #23) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:52 am

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Good to know I'm lock-clear. But can you actually answer my questions?
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Post Post #1015 (isolation #24) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:56 am

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Was there a reason you were expecting to be night-killed? As for the Rask-kill, I think scum might have killed him because they thought he was a PR. He definitely gave off some PR-vibes with the "I'll claim when there's intent" post.
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Post Post #1017 (isolation #25) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:14 am

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How did you reach that conclusion based off of her last few posts?
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Post Post #1019 (isolation #26) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:18 am

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I'm kinda perplexed what exactly she doesn't understand about my progression on Iconeum. I explained it and asked her to refute my logic about three times now and she just avoided commenting on it. The only reason I'm not scumreading her is that the last time I played with her and tried to have a reasonable discussion, I was met with "vote me now, you're scum, doubt = zero" etc and I winded up voting her and she flipped town.
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Post Post #1021 (isolation #27) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:20 am

Post by BlackVoid »

What tone shift?
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Post Post #1023 (isolation #28) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:26 am

Post by BlackVoid »

That's pretty vague. I read your post but that sentence doesn't make any sense to me. Mind explaining like I'm five?
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Post Post #1050 (isolation #29) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:27 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1040, Iconeum wrote:I can probably come to a consensus on Blackvoid (replacing zzzzx). There's not way we are lynching Bujaber.

Blackvoid/Lovebird is much more likely.

Thoughts from everyone?
I thought ZZZX/Lovebird was probably a team before I replaced in so it's a fairly reasonable scumteam call I'd say. But then I saw my role PM and I winded up being town.

I've been considering options and I think it's best to claim at this point. If we lynch wrong and I claim in LYLO, mafia will cc and I can't see ourselves collectively agreeing with how people's reads are. Cheeky and Ankamius apparently think me and my top townread are POE scum and Lovebird is town. I'm not even sure on Lovebird at this point. This way we have some time to recalibrate instead of rushing a lynch if I claim at the last minute.

I'm the even-night cop.
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Post Post #1060 (isolation #30) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:36 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I wasn't sure about Lovebird though. Ankamius/Cheeky were pretty suspicious and I wasn't sure Lovebird lynch was the way to go. We are running short on time and people getting hung up on me/Lovebird isn't really going to help.
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Post Post #1061 (isolation #31) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:36 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Claiming the day before LYLO is actually optimal.
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Post Post #1067 (isolation #32) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:42 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Yeah, fact 2 was part of the reason as well. I wanted to maximize the time we have. What do you think of the way Ankamius townread Lovebird. I've been trying to understand his read but really can't figure out why he's townreading her and it's really vague. Both his Lovebird and Cheeky townreads are vague and the latter actually came at a point when Cheeky made her scummiest posts.
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Post Post #1068 (isolation #33) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:44 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1064, BuJaber wrote:Okay cop can counter claim tomorrow anyway if BV doesn't get killed.

VOTE: love
Uh no. The entire point of claiming now is to ensure mafia cannot counterclaim in lylo. If they cc me, they are guaranteed to be lynched today or tomorrow. This just provides them an out.
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Post Post #1070 (isolation #34) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:45 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1066, BuJaber wrote:Why is Void orried about lylo tomorrow is not lylo unless love is town, right?
Right. I was becoming uncertain about my Lovebird scumread.
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Post Post #1071 (isolation #35) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:46 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1069, BuJaber wrote:TOMORROW IS NOT LYLO UNLESS LOVE IS TOWN. IF YOU ARE COP HOW DO YOU KNOW SHE IS TOWN
Obviously I don't know she's town.
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Post Post #1076 (isolation #36) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:53 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

If I was confident Lovebird was scum, I'd have hammered her. I actually spent 30 minutes before I left for work this afternoon thinking about whether I should drop the hammer. The ideal scenario of course was to declare intent and hammer if she claimed cop before anyone unvoted. But I was at work when she was online last night and she didn't show up today and deadline is approaching.
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Post Post #1077 (isolation #37) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:54 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1075, BuJaber wrote:If love is scum and void is alive tomorrow he is scum.

If scum keep him alive for wifom then he can give us a result. We lynch void tomorrow and that confirms his result.

Or scum kill him and we lynch cheeky as the 2nd most likely partner for love.
We're not lynching me ever without a cc. And that needs to happen today. Your entire reaction the previous page has been extremely scummy and fake tbh.
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Post Post #1082 (isolation #38) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:02 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

That makes no sense. You just said I'll be counterclaimed IF I'm not cop and that there's no "if."

The optimal strategy is for everyone to confirm that they aren't cop. That removes the possibility of scum counterclaiming. The reason for claiming a day before LYLO is to guarantee either a scum lynch today or tomorrow if there is a cc or having a confirmed town if there is not. Waiting until LYLO removes that possibility and leaves people guessing for scumteams. If we have a guaranteed scum lynch, that makes things much easier in the following days and if we reach 3P, we still use interactive tells from flipped scum to figure out their partner. Considering how you scumhunt (with groups and pairs), I'd have thought this would be a big help to you. Your whole reaction is completely over-the-top.
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Post Post #1083 (isolation #39) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:06 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1081, BuJaber wrote:A counterclaim from the real cop is suicide how are you even suggesting it.
I'm the real cop but I'll entertain your hypothetical scenario. In the event I'm scum, it would still be optimal for a cop to cc because it guarantees a scum lynch. If we lynch wrong today, and we have a cc in LYLO, we don't have a single scum flipped and that would make it very challenging for every single member of the town to correctly nail scum. I don't think the value of an investigation is particularly high if town doesn't believe a cop claim in lylo and there are two scum.
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Post Post #1084 (isolation #40) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

You come across like you are setting up to cc me tomorrow actually and that pings.
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Post Post #1091 (isolation #41) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:13 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1085, BuJaber wrote:However the issue is if love is town and you are alive tomorrow and you are counterclaimed who do we believe? That is the situation where we just have to assume you weren't killed because you aren't the cop.
That's exactly why if anyone intends to counterclaim they need to do it today. Everyone needs to be on the same page that any ccs tomorrow will be treated as scumclaims and auto-lynched.

If I'm scum and the cop cc's and gets nightkilled, I kind of get auto-lynched tomorrow. So, you'd have one guaranteed scum. I don't understand why you are concerned about a "real" cop getting nightkilled when if I'm scum, I CAN'T nightkill the cop if I want to survive tomorrow.
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Post Post #1095 (isolation #42) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:19 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1093, BuJaber wrote:Okay hypotheticaly say I counterclaim now

Love flips town, you do not kill me. Town mislynches me tomorrow. You and your partner win.
Except we don't flip Lovebird if you counterclaim now. We lynch one of us.
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Post Post #1110 (isolation #43) » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:29 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1107, CheekyTeeky wrote:Just the fact that Bu keeps going on about me killing him is 100% a scum claim.
Actually this is a good point. It seemed like he was setting up to cc me tomorrow and backed out when Iconeum pressed the issue.
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Post Post #1185 (isolation #44) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:01 am

Post by BlackVoid »

@Iconeum, how likely would you say the following teams are:

Ankamius/Lovebird
Ankamius/CheekyTeeky
Ankamius/GreenLiquid
Lovebird/CheekyTeeky
Lovebird/GreenLiquid
CheekyTeeky/GreenLiquid
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Post Post #1186 (isolation #45) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:02 am

Post by BlackVoid »

If BuJaber is scum, it has to be with Ankamius. I think we can safely rule out BuJaber/Lovebird and BuJaber/CheekyTeeky teams. I think we can rule out Lovebird/GL (GL pushed Lovebird quite a bit) and possibly BuJaber/GL (they suspected each other quite a bit).

It really comes down to:

Ankamius/Lovebird
Ankamius/CheekyTeeky
Ankamius/GreenLiquid
Ankamius/BuJaber

Lovebird/CheekyTeeky
CheekyTeeky/GreenLiquid

I don't have much of a reason to rule out the last two teams but I'll re-read the game and see. Ankamius's slot has always been null to scummy. Christopher's Not_Mafia push was just directed at an easy target. Korina's posts were pretty bad. Ank's reads don't make any sense.

I want to lynch Ankamius I think.
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Post Post #1193 (isolation #46) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:33 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1120, BuJaber wrote:I'm getting paranoid that it is but love flipping town is whay gurantees cheeky/ank that is why love has to be lynched first.
I think you're being overly optimistic if you assume that if Lovebird is lynched and flips town, people will just follow you on the next two lynches as opposed to... lynching you for instance. If you're town and want to win, you should be trying to figure out the scumteam now as opposed to try to set up multiple lynches contingent on Lovebird's townflip and expect that it'll all go according to plan.
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Post Post #1196 (isolation #47) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1133, BuJaber wrote:So that raises the question is there a chance both love and Ank are town? That would mean Ank is so sure of love town based on what exactly?
The flaw in the reasoning here is that if Ank is town, that says nothing about Lovebird's alignment. He's just as likely to have a townread on town with poor reasoning as he is to have a townread on scum.
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Post Post #1201 (isolation #48) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:08 am

Post by BlackVoid »

So, what happened to your townread on CheekyTeeky for - what was it? Tonal shifting patterns?
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Post Post #1202 (isolation #49) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:10 am

Post by BlackVoid »

A townread of yours (CheekyTeeky) launches into a tunnel of your only scumread. It seems like an unusual reaction from you to conclude that are probably partners instead of it strengthening your Cheeky townread.
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Post Post #1203 (isolation #50) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:30 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Also, why would Cheeky pass up on the Lovebird lynch to tunnel her partner?
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Post Post #1205 (isolation #51) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:38 am

Post by BlackVoid »

There is no need to quote your previous posts. I read them all. I was asking for more detail and less vagueness. So, you had your POE down to me and BuJaber. I claimed. So, it's just BuJaber. His partner from your POV could be GL, Lovebird, or CheekyTeeky. You were townreading them all. Why was Cheeky the one you bring up as a potential partner as opposed to say GreenLiquid?
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Post Post #1209 (isolation #52) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:50 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1207, Ankamius wrote:Because under a Cheeky+BuJaber scumteam light, the sudden motivation increase I townread before also makes sense as panic and realization that she needed to start damage control before I gained too much influence over town.
If she was worried about that, she'd go after you, not me.
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Post Post #1210 (isolation #53) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:50 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1191, Ankamius wrote:
In post 1067, BlackVoid wrote:Yeah, fact 2 was part of the reason as well. I wanted to maximize the time we have. What do you think of the way Ankamius townread Lovebird. I've been trying to understand his read but really can't figure out why he's townreading her and it's really vague. Both his Lovebird and Cheeky townreads are vague and the latter actually came at a point when Cheeky made her scummiest posts.
A lot of my reads appear that way because I motivation/tone-read.

The question I want to ask you now is what this indicates for me as scum, I'm specifically talking about why I would potentially close off a vote possibility on the one that is down in the worst case scenario that the other is my partner. Even if it's optimal to try to lynch off of that, the situation is perilous enough without adding extra complications.
I don't understand the question but I'm guessing that you are asking me why if you are scum, you would close off the possibility of voting CheekyTeeky?

I found your post scummy because it seemed like you saw Cheeky make a hard push on me and decided to buddy her while scumreading me to get her on your side. This because I explained my logic for townreading Iconeum and challenged Cheeky to refute. She never was able to. In fact, she dismissed it as "blah blah" logic while continuing to scumread me for townreading Iconeum "too soon." Townreading her based off of her posts on that page didn't make any sense unless you were looking at her posts very superficially. I don't definitively rule out you/Cheeky team though.
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Post Post #1211 (isolation #54) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:52 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Also, it's kind of a stretch to believe you could single-handedly derail the Lovebird lynch while providing no persuasive reasons whatsoever that scum suddenly panicked and decided to tunnel their partner.
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Post Post #1214 (isolation #55) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:56 am

Post by BlackVoid »

@Iconeum, while you are here, did you have any thoughts about my /?
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Post Post #1218 (isolation #56) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:08 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Obviously, townies can scumread me. That's not my issue though. I don't understand what was unclear about why I townread Iconeum before we heard from everyone. You haven't disputed my logic that if Iconeum was scum, he would not fake-claim doc. He'd either fake-claim cop to out the real one or VT if he wanted to try to survive based on play alone. I keep bringing it up and you keep talking around it. What exactly is your issue with my logic?
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Post Post #1219 (isolation #57) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:10 am

Post by BlackVoid »

@Cheeky, would you mind detailing what points to a BuJaber/Ankamius team?
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Post Post #1226 (isolation #58) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:37 am

Post by BlackVoid »

@BuJaber/CheekyTeeky, any objections to lynching Ank today?
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Post Post #1228 (isolation #59) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:41 am

Post by BlackVoid »

I'm happy to wait for their input but you're pretty much guaranteed to be alive tomorrow so that shouldn't be an issue.
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Post Post #1239 (isolation #60) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:45 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1233, Ankamius wrote:As annoying as this is, lynching Love might be the only chance for a town win despite being a likely town lynch.
How does lynching townie increase the chances of a town win? You'll still be alive and suspected tomorrow. BuJaber tried to set it up as you getting lynched on a Lovebird townflip.
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Post Post #1241 (isolation #61) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:51 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

You and Cheeky are the two people willing to vote BuJaber, one of whom according to you is his partner.

I'll be here all the way to deadline tomorrow (except when I need to sleep) so feel free to sway me while I comb through the game again.
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Post Post #1242 (isolation #62) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:52 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

@Cheeky/Ankamius, could you both explain exactly why GreenLiquid is your strongest townread?
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Post Post #1245 (isolation #63) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:55 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

That's not an explanation. I assume you are talking about , , and . What about those posts did you find to be townie?
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Post Post #1252 (isolation #64) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:47 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I was almost worried that was a hammer but it's a good thing Iconeum unvoted Lovebird.

I don't understand why you are trying to lynch a townread, Ankamius.
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Post Post #1256 (isolation #65) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:58 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I'd buy your reasoning if it was something along the lines of "at least there's a chance Lovebird will flip scum but there's zero chance I will so I'm crossvoting the counterwagon" but your reasoning seemed more along the lines of self-preservation because you'll be able to influence and persuade town tomorrow to somehow lynch scum. But when I ask you to explain or elaborate on anything, you just quote earlier posts that you made where you didn't explain anything. How exactly were you planning to influence us to your way of thinking if you weren't planning on explaining anything in depth?
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Post Post #1257 (isolation #66) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:15 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

We need to settle on a lynch tonight. The deadline is tomorrow fairly early and I'd rather not scramble at deadline.

There are possibilities and here's where I'm at.

I don't think BuJaber is mafia. Throughout the game, there's been so much intense scumhunting from his slot. It's true that some of his groups and pairings are weird and don't often make any sense. He's been constantly active and posting and more importantly re-evaluating his reads. He has at various points suspected GreenLiquid, Iconeum, Lovebird, Ank's slot, and CheekyTeeky. He showed a lack of opportunism when my slot was under fire for ZZZX lurking and insisted that scum were among the active players because he was being suspected so much. His assertion that Cheeky and Ank are scum together because they both claim that he's paired with the other is actually the exact same thought process that allowed me to nail two scum in a Mini Normal 1921 a while ago. I really hate that his reaction to me claiming was to insist that counterclaims wait till tomorrow and that I should be lynched tomorrow to check my results. It's also a stretch to believe that he thought I was scum and softed so as to direct the kill onto him and his behavior in fact makes sense as scum who wanted to cc. But it's a small point in light of his generally town play. I also think if were scum, he'd shut up and take that Lovebird lynch and shoot me instead of making an issue out of it. Overall, he's the closest I've gotten to a solid townread in this game. I don't think BuJaber should be lynched now or at any point in the game.
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Post Post #1258 (isolation #67) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:19 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Ankamius's playstyle is super-weird. I don't understand any of his reads that are all based on vague POE and the fact that his POE consisted of me and my strongest townread is pretty bad. I wish I could have gotten him to explain stuff so that I can actually get a read on him. I guess the only thing he could possibly be town for is he has townie frustration, maybe? Christopher's posting was bad as was Korina's. So, he's a viable lynch.
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Post Post #1259 (isolation #68) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:21 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

* Sorry, I meant she/her etc for Ankamius.
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Post Post #1261 (isolation #69) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:26 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

CheekyTeeky is honestly the slot I want to lynch even more than Ankamius. The sudden realization that BuJaber was scum was weird and came out of nowhere. It happened right after Iconeum and I suspected BuJaber. The whole "lynch BuJaber or me" argument came right after I mentioned that in my previous game with Cheeky, she was tunneling me when we were both town. It seemed like she wanted to replicate that meta so I'd dismiss it as just CheekyTeeky tunneling as she did in our previous game. I don't understand the basis for her BuJaber scumread at all. I do think her play towards the end of D1 was very townie though so I'll have to re-read it again before I make a call there. I'm also going to quickly skim a game where she's scum to see what her range is like but according to Rask, it seemed to be rather large. He also predicted that Cheeky would endgame if scum and then got nightkilled. That leads me to believe that is Rask was alive, he would eventually suspect Cheeky even if he didn't while he was alive. Rask kill points mostly towards Cheeky I think because he's the kind of player she wouldn't be able to take to endgame because he'd just vote her for being alive.
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Post Post #1264 (isolation #70) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:34 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I have good reasons to townread BuJaber so you could use that as a starting point for discussion. Your entire post is written with the assumption that you are right and need to convince other people. You haven't considered the possibility that BuJaber is townread by me and Icon because he's town and scum might be elsewhere.
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Post Post #1265 (isolation #71) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:35 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I think sticking around tonight might be pro-town in case we need your vote to prevent a no lynch.
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Post Post #1266 (isolation #72) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:37 pm

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If you are town, I'd consider Cheeky/Lovebird team before I consider any team with GreenLiquid in it. Consider the possibility that you are wrong on both BuJaber and Lovebird.
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Post Post #1269 (isolation #73) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:45 pm

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Okay, you have over 200 posts and we're running out of time - just link me to the posts where you've done all this.
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Post Post #1271 (isolation #74) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:53 pm

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I also
really
didn't like how you wanted to stall gamesolving until a replacement happened even knowing that once someone steps in, we'll be on a 48 hour clock. You still haven't refuted my logic for why Iconeum was town because he claimed doc. You dodged it many times then claimed that you had scumread me because scum more easily believe claims. That's not even true. Scum know all claims are true. They can find reasons to project belief or disbelief for a variety of reasons. I had get what scum motivation I could have possibly have had to call Icon conf-town and then gamesolve instead of just hanging back and waiting for the replacement. Lovebird actually did the exact same thing and I think she's scummy for it.
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Post Post #1272 (isolation #75) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:59 pm

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Okay, this is funny because I wanted to read a CheekyTeeky scum PT and I didn't make it past the first post without having to copy-paste it here:

Subject: Open 695: Making Friends and Enemies | New Mafia PT
CheekyTeeky wrote:Aw :( ok any suggestions? I'm going to play naturally, which is pretty active and aggressive. If you look scummy I'm going to call you out. Anyone know any weaknesses of Comm or other players?

Awoo is pretty on to it, they'll like us being proactive.
We also have 2 newbies who will be easy to pocket or defend for town cred when town lynches them for being derpy
.
Considering her defense of Not_Mafia which was based just on the fact that he got wagoned.
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Post Post #1274 (isolation #76) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 4:37 pm

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@GreenLiquid, when you get a chance to dig deeper, I think it would be most helpful if you post all of your reads with some reasoning in an order based on how strong those reads are. You've posted a lot of reactions but I'm having trouble figuring out who you think is town and who you think is scum overall.
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Post Post #1278 (isolation #77) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:25 pm

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You reached the exact same conclusion as I did. Either you are really good scum that's playing to make me townread you or you're town. And I can't imagine why you'd spend all this time trying to fool me if you only have to do it for a few hours and then you get to night-kill me. But obviously you'd need to convince me to vote a mislynch instead of your partner. I think if you're scum, you can only be scum with CheekyTeeky pretty much. And that's an outside shot. I think you are focusing pretty heavily on BuJaber's reaction to my claim but BuJaber's overall play has been pretty townie.

But I think you're most likely town and town that will make the LYLO decision. I think lynching Ank -> Cheeky -> Lovebird wins the game for town. But I'm not sure if what I'm saying about BuJaber makes sense to you.
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Post Post #1280 (isolation #78) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:33 pm

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I think this is a pretty big misrepresentation of what happened in that game.

This is how the conversation actually went:
Spoiler:
Subject: Newbie 1826 Basketball Game Over
CheekyTeeky wrote:
In post 836, BlackVoid wrote:I don't think being okay with "anyone" being lynched helps at all. I'd rather no lynch than lynch someone I'm not scumreading because with an even number of players, we have to no lynch at some point anyways. Starting afresh with a new day will allow me to catchup and engage people and lynch with a more informed understanding of the game than rushing to lynch right now.

With that said, I'm actually going to try and catchup asap and see what I think. I keep not finding time to catchup and that sucks. Sorry about the delay.
This is extreme LAMIST fencesitting, basically a lot of words that say nothing
BlackVoid wrote:
In post 894, CheekyTeeky wrote:This is extreme LAMIST fencesitting, basically a lot of words that say nothing
How did you get nothing out of my proposal to no lynch? Do you agree or not that no lynching today gives us time to analyze the game, for me and NSG to put actual content into the thread and for Lucca to be more active? Why is wagon speed a reason to be turned off of the Peaches/Lucca wagon? What do you think of Lucca's actual posts in the game?
BlackVoid wrote:Can you go more in-depth into your reads please? I'm really trying to work with you here. Your reasoning for suspecting NSG and Thor is literally that they pushed you. Except I'm not sure what block they'd be trying to break. I'm town and if Deimos is town (assuming Thor and NSG are scum), why wouldn't they just let you tunnel me and Deimos? Why would Thor launch into an attack on you instead of letting you push that UCV lynch if UCV is town? How did you come around to townreading UCV anyways? You also still haven't commented on my no-lynch proposal. Do you agree that it's best to no lynch today and spend tomorrow figuring out the game?
BlackVoid wrote:I mean, I'm genuinely trying to understand where you are coming from but your responses feel more like you are trying to shut down an attempt at open conversation by acting deliberately obtuse and evasive. You're not talking about your reads nor are you taking an actual stand on whether no-lynching is beneficial.
CheekyTeeky wrote:You're proving my point :lol: anyone who can't see your scum intent in the past few posts is unfortunately missing out on lynching scum. Keep trying so hard to look reasonable, it's a thin veil to your self-preservation which reeks. You should have just voted me while I was distracted by NSG thinking she could read me. Now you're lock scum buddy.
BlackVoid wrote:I'm not trying to look reasonable. I'm being reasonable. Which is why I'm perplexed by your reaction. The entirety of your responses don't seem genuine at all. It feels like you're trying to present some sort of "conviction" about me being scum to dodge my questions about in-depth explanations for your reads and stance on the no lynch.
CheekyTeeky wrote:Vote me now scum. Your hesitation says everything.


Now that I quoted all that, I'm getting cold feet on lynching Cheeky. Feels pretty much the exact same...
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Post Post #1282 (isolation #79) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:35 pm

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In post 1277, GreenLiquid wrote:Cheeky: This one pains me the most. I feel like after D1, Cheeky was very nearly locktown, but she's been pushing in directions that make no sense to me from a town perspective today and is potentially chainsaw defending Lovebird by pushing BuJaber. I find that really hard to square with her proactive play and defense of Not_Mafia D1, though, which felt extremely town to me. As scum she would have been passing up on laying low and letting a scum-favorable game state persist.
What do you think of the post I quoted from her past scum thread which explains a possible motivation for defending Not_Mafia as scum? It doesn't conclusively prove anything but it does show that it's not a towntell for Cheeky to defend him because there
is
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Post Post #1284 (isolation #80) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:38 pm

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In post 1281, GreenLiquid wrote:Do you have any meta history with Bu?

The biggest thing holding me back from an obvscum read on him has been his tone (up until today, anyway). If he has a history of not being able to project a town-feeling tone as scum, that might go some way in getting me to believe in him.
No meta history. The only people I've played with before are Cheeky and briefly you in a Newbie game (not sure if you remember). And I've played with Rask and Not_Mafia. I skimmed a couple games where he was scum to see what his range is like and it's pretty middle-of-the-road. Definitely nothing to this extent as far as crazy amount of gamesolving goes.
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Post Post #1285 (isolation #81) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:44 pm

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Yeah, if that ATE came from scum, I'd be really surprised.

Okay, so it's not BuJaber, GreenLiquid, or CheekyTeeky. That just leaves Lovebird and Ankamius. I think Ank lynch is the way to go. Reads make the least sense. I don't buy at all the BuJaber/CheekyTeeky possibility. Let's do this.

VOTE: Ankamius
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Post Post #1287 (isolation #82) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:46 pm

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Ank tried to derail the Lovebird lynch because Lovebird is Ank's partner and I'm pretty sure Ank would not get any credit from bussing at that point. I think they decided to go big or go home.
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Post Post #1290 (isolation #83) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:55 pm

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@GreenLiquid, okay maybe I'm wrong on BuJaber. I'll re-evaluate BuJaber. I'm going to head off to dinner right now and then give final thoughts. How much time do you have left today to talk before you need to go?

Also, are we agreed lynching Ank is the way to go today?
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Post Post #1291 (isolation #84) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:57 pm

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Didn't read your last post. I'd rather you just vote him unless you can be absolutely 100% sure you can check in tomorrow before deadline.
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Post Post #1293 (isolation #85) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:07 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I actually BuJaber is right that you could be the final deciding vote in LYLO. If we lynch Ank and Lovebird, and they're not the scumteam, and me and Iconeum get nightkilled, we have a you/Cheeky/BuJaber LYLO and nine times out of ten, they'll vote each other. I guess you'd lynch BuJaber in that scenario. I'm not entirely sure which of BuJaber/Cheeky I townread more. It would depend on which of Ank/Lovebird are mafia. I'll make an in-depth post tonight for you to consider in LYLO but obviously take it with a grain of salt since I'm working with much less information than you would be in LYLO. This probably won't get done in fifteen minutes. I'm going to stay up late tonight to do it.

But the gist of it is that I remember BuJaber making some links between Lovebird/Iconeum that struck me the wrong way. It almost seemed like he was implying they were partners.
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Post Post #1295 (isolation #86) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:20 pm

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Okay, I'm leaving for about half an hour. @GreenLiquid, please just vote before leave for the night. I don't want to be stressed out at the possibility of a no lynch. I'll post my final analysis post later tonight.
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Post Post #1299 (isolation #87) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:25 pm

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In post 1297, BuJaber wrote:Also ank/love doesn't make a lot of sense because korina pushed against love but ank didn't in a way that contradicts her own predecessor. I don't think that scum who knows that their partner tried to bus would be so careless as to derail the wagon in this way.
I don't think it matters to Ank what her predecessor said though. She is a different person who could plausibly have different reads. If she saw her partner under pressure and could see that a Lovebird lynch would make it very difficult to win the game, she'd go all out trying to derail the wagon onto town.

I think CheekyTeeky was frustrated because I wouldn't listen to her on you and kept insisting that you're town. Iconeum had you in his townreads as well. I think the level of frustration would be a bit too much to fake as scum. It came off as rather genuine.

We should lynch Ank. Then lynch Lovebird regardless of Ank's flip. Don't listen to Ank. Even if Ank flips town, I'm pretty sure she was wrong on Lovebird because the reasons are just not convincing and you/Cheeky/GL look much townier overall.
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Post Post #1300 (isolation #88) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:36 pm

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In post 1297, BuJaber wrote:If someone can help me eliminate love/Gl and ank/GL as a team then this game becomes really easy.
Well, GL came through to lynch Ank when a Cheeky lynch was a possibility which eliminates Ank/GL.

GL spent most of the game pushing Lovebird. See Iconeum's post where he townreads GL for pushing Lovebird.

It's actually GL/Cheeky I worry about the most in the back of my mind but I can't see either of them individually as scum.
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Post Post #1303 (isolation #89) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:42 pm

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In post 1301, BuJaber wrote:I don't agree with you that cheeky is coming off as genuine. It feels like she has an agenda and a strategy.
You really think scum would get so pissed off that they'd tell me not to join games with them just because I caught them? It'd be different if someone was being objectively toxic but I don't think I said anything at all that crossed the line. I just tried to lynch her.
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Post Post #1305 (isolation #90) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:46 pm

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In post 1304, Iconeum wrote:Intent to hammer ank as well. Not much time to comment today.
Ank and cheeky
Or
Cheekh and love
Both these teams are plausible, yeah. I guess if it's down to Cheeky/GL/BuJaber, I'd recommend lynching Cheeky because I townread the other two more. But I still don't see Cheeky as scum.

Could it be Lovebird/GL. How confident are you that GL's Lovebird push wasn't a bus?
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Post Post #1307 (isolation #91) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:49 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Between Lovebird and Ankamius, who do you think is scummier?
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Post Post #1308 (isolation #92) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:54 pm

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I think GL calling Ank the voice of reason was a bit too much. Ank really didn't make any sense.
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Post Post #1310 (isolation #93) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:00 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 2525, CheekyTeeky wrote:Actually I'm done guys, just lynch me, the tunnel aint gonna stop, then it's between Gamma/Eddie. Well played if it's Eddie.
Bringing up evidence from past Cheeky games for GreenLiquid to consider.

Pedit: I don't know, I'm torn on whether Cheeky's outburst was townie. It seemed genuine but not outside scumrange.
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Post Post #1313 (isolation #94) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:20 pm

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Yeah, I suppose it does. I wish I could feel more confident on GreenLiquid being town. If he's scum, he's really, really good but in the last game I played with him, he didn't seem like a particularly confident player. I guess that points to him being town because I'd have to assume that he's extra-ordinarily talented to see a scum-GL world.
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Post Post #1314 (isolation #95) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:23 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Re-analyzing CheekyTeeky's from D1 because outside of GreenLiquid, she's the one I'm most worried will endgame if we don't lynch her now:

- - kind of a stretch. Why is Christopher's RVS post posturing?
- - don't really agree but plausible.
- - I don't know where the scumread on Chris came from. She's picking out perfectly normal posts and calling them scummy and that's weird.
- - This seems rather overly confident. Feels fake.
- - Where did this Lovebird scumread come from?
- - She's pushing Iconeum pretty hard at this point so why this question to Lovebird coupled with a scumread on her?
- - That was a pretty quick turnaround.

I'll keep posting the rest but I wanted to get this out so people could engage.
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Post Post #1316 (isolation #96) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:28 pm

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But if you truly believe your reads, you'd be throwing the game, wouldn't you? I mean I could buy "lynch me, then lynch BuJaber" as a potential town move but in your scenario, you'd be letting your biggest scumread endgame. And I thought I was avoiding you so there wouldn't be a next time.
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Post Post #1319 (isolation #97) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:35 pm

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Both you and BuJaber read town to me and I'm wondering I'm going wrong somewhere or both of you are wrong. I'm really trying to see where each of you is coming from but I can't see your last posts as coming from scum. I can't see your end-of-D1 as coming from scum. I can't see BuJaber being scum with how much he's gamesolved and how much he invested into the game. If I'm wrong on Ank/Lovebird, I have no idea who'd be scum in that scenario.

Who has the most motivation to kill Rask?
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Post Post #1321 (isolation #98) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:41 pm

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- I actually suspected the same thing about Iconeum before I knew he was town so this resonated with me.
- This is actually a GOOD point regarding BuJaber. Unless he's a scum genius, I can't really see him having played this way. Could GL's tunnel be indicative of GL being scum?
- The point about Lovebird is also a good one because I thought Lovebird was town too until I saw what their scumrange is like and it's pretty similar. I just don't understand the Chris scumread.
- Did anything GL said cause you to doubt this read?
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Post Post #1324 (isolation #99) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

UNVOTE:

Let me think on it a bit. Not sure if Lovebird isn't a better lynch. And I want to finish analyzing you/BuJaber for GreenLiquid.

Question for you: Have you ever self-voted as town?
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Post Post #1326 (isolation #100) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:55 pm

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Would you mind linking it? And no, you didn't do it in basketball. You have done it as scum though so if I can see evidence you also did it as town, I can consider it null.
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Post Post #1330 (isolation #101) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:44 pm

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So many people demanding to be lynched. I can only vote one of you unfortunately.
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Post Post #1332 (isolation #102) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:46 pm

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I thought you were scumreading CheekyTeeky. Weren't you saying she and BuJaber were the team?
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Post Post #1334 (isolation #103) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:49 pm

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I'm assuming you found her latest posts townie. Who's BuJaber's partner then?
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Post Post #1337 (isolation #104) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 9:52 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

Actually just hammer Ank please whoever is online. I don't think KMD will be up in the middle of the night and I'll finish my analysis without having to worry about no lynching.
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Post Post #1343 (isolation #105) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:00 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

VOTE: Ankamius
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Post Post #1347 (isolation #106) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:04 pm

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Okay, so it's super-unlikely BuJaber is scum. Unless the team is GL/Cheeky, Lovebird has to be scum. As for who is partnered with Lovebird, I can't see it being GL so it has to be Cheeky just through POE.
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Post Post #1351 (isolation #107) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:09 pm

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Yeah, but at the time you despaired, Ank was your scumread. You weren't operating with knowledge that he was town (or were you?)
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Post Post #1353 (isolation #108) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:13 pm

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I'm not entirely sure Ankamius will flip town. I'd have expected some sort of analysis or trying to tell us not to lynch Lovebird next.
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Post Post #1355 (isolation #109) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:16 pm

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Ico is the claimed doc.
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Post Post #1358 (isolation #110) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:28 pm

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How are you suddenly 100% on GL being town. Considering one of your townreads flipped town (or at least claims to be town after lynch), I'd expect everyone would drop down in your POE as opposed to being more certain of them being town.
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Post Post #1365 (isolation #111) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:32 pm

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@GreenLiquid, so here's my final analysis post. I thought I'd be less certain about this but I actually feel pretty sure upon a re-read that the scumteam is Lovebird and CheekyTeeky, so I'll just lay out my case for you to consider:

1. Major Minor's post:
Major Minor's only post () was pretty scummy. He suspects Iconeum based on similar reasons to yours but weirdly also suspects Lovebird for pushing on Iconeum for "empty reasons." This is the kind of thing I've often seen from scum where they want to distance from their partners in unnatural ways. My reaction upon seeing Lovebird push Iconeum was to townread Lovebird for seeing what I saw. I think Major Minor saw that Iconeum was the most plausible push that he could make but was uncomfortable with his partner also making that push hence the weird distancing from Lovebird. CheekyTeeky replaced Major Minor and this points to a Lovebird/Cheeky team.

2. CheekyTeeky's read accuracy:
Overall CheekyTeeky has suspected several people and pushed them. First, she pushed Iconeum and Christopher (Korina -> Ank), both of whom we now know to be town and defended Lovebird. She then pushed Rask almost to a claim and he flipped town. On D2, she continued pushing Iconeum and when he claimed, she switched to me. After I claimed, she finally switched to BuJaber. Besides BuJaber (who I believe is town), every single one of Cheeky's pushes have been on people we now know to be town. I believe she also suspected ZZZX. I think an average townie will have reads that are roughly random ~25%. To believe that Cheeky is town, she had to have had astonishingly inaccurate reads pushing almost exclusively on town. I think from a statistical standpoint, it's just more likely she's scum pushing mislynches. Notably she didn't push Lovebird. Something to consider in LYLO if you have the Lovebird scumflip on the table. Her counter is that she wasn't nightkilled because she townread Lovebird. I don't find it persuasive at all. It feels like she has a guilty conscience for being alive and is prematurely finding the dual excuse that explains both her being alive and wrong about Lovebird.

3. Raskolnikov nightkill:
A lot has been said about why Rask was killed when he was widely suspected. My take is that it points to two people: Lovebird and CheekyTeeky. Rask gave off the impression that he was a PR. Please read , , and . Rask's actually looks like he was softing a PR. I think Lovebird unvoted because she realized that this was a soft intending to quietly kill him during the night proud of her accomplishment in getting a (soft) claim out. I doubt many people even noticed this which is why it heavily points towards Lovebird. The second reason I believe for the Rask kill is that he spent most of D1 scumreading Cheeky even if was less sure at the end. He made predictions that Cheeky would endgame as scum. He was also the person who was most paranoid about Cheeky and most likely to vote her if it came down to 3P LYLO. Oftentimes good scum win because the person casting the deciding vote townreads them even while it's obvious to the entire dead thread that they're scum. That's by carefully choosing nightkills killing people who won't give them the benefit of the doubt and will vote them just because it's suspicious that a good scum player is alive in LYLO. I wouldn't say Rask's final reads are indicative so much about who is scum than the fact that if Rask and Cheeky were alive mid to late game, Rask was almost certain to have pushed there. I think the nightkill points to CheekyTeeky and Lovebird. They have the most motivation to make that kill.

4. End of D1:
Cheeky briefly votes Lovebird and then quickly switches to BuJaber. I don't really see any progression there. Could be potential distancing.

--will continue in next post. Just want to get this out there in case of thread being locked. ---
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Post Post #1366 (isolation #112) » Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:33 pm

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Yeah, I guess that's for you as well, BuJaber. I think CheekyTeeky is buddying GL more than it being scumpartners.
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Post Post #1368 (isolation #113) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:00 am

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--- continued ---

(End of D1): In , she states a preference for lynching BuJaber over Lovebird. Based on you making a case (). In contrast BuJaber had his vote on Lovebird towards the end of the day. is lolworthy. Consider CheekyTeeky is a player that according to her self-votes and meltsdown as town. I think she'd be more empathetic towards BuJaber's asking to be lynched at the end of D1. Instead that post is just nitpicking at how he asked to be lynched and then claimed this was his best town game. If that didn't make sense, everything that Cheeky did towards the end of D2 made even less sense. Self-voting. Agreeing with an Ank/Lovebird/Cheeky lynch order when BuJaber was her strongest scumread and that would potentially lose her the game. I think someone prone to being frustrated under pressure would be able to understand BuJaber's motivations. Iconeum townread BuJaber in and switched to Lovebird. Cheeky seemed to have realized that BuJaber's outburst was going to get him townread and then switched to... Iconeum. I initially townread end-of-day activity but it felt like Cheeky was blatantly manipulating it to end in a non-Lovebird lynch. Also, read . The whole scenario replayed end of D2 with her being okay with Ank/Lovebird lynches. Finally,
Lovebird is 100% lying
when she claims that Rask was townreading her and that she wouldn't night-kill him. See .

5. Early D2 posting:
Started off OMGUSing BuJaber even though she had backed off of him the previous day.
is a pretty bad post because the Rask kill makes perfect sense as I explained and scum often kill people that they suspect just so they could write reasoning like the one Cheeky posted.

Pedit: Exactly what BuJaber said above. @GL, assuming you are town, please don't lynch BuJaber in LYLO. I'll write up a towncase on him next for you to consider but it's one of those reads I feel fairly confident about.
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Post Post #1370 (isolation #114) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:17 am

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In post 1364, BuJaber wrote:Man cheeky/GL can't make sense man.. but post 1354 1361 make me a little worried.
What actually worries me about a Cheeky/GL team is that GL has never been willing to lynch Cheeky at any point. Cheeky's latest post could be scum happy at the fact that I'm appealing to her partner to make a decision in LYLO when the game ends with a Lovebird lynch. And yeah, it would certainly be funny to a Cheeky-GL team if I wasted all the effort.
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Post Post #1373 (isolation #115) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:20 am

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I don't know what else makes sense. My townread on BuJaber is rock-solid so if it isn't you, it has be GL and Lovebird. You're better off selling me on GL over BuJaber (not that you have to bother since I won't be alive to make any decisions anyways).
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Post Post #1377 (isolation #116) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:23 am

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I keep putting effort because I want town to win the game even if today ended in a mislynch. If you're somehow actually town here, you could probably do that instead of self-voting, asking to be lynched, or making comments like which don't really have any substance.
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Post Post #1379 (isolation #117) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:38 am

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I just feel like we have completely different playstyles. Evidence is probably the only thing that'll make me townread you. Your reaction has been mostly ATE but that can be hard to evaluate either way when you know that the player has ATE as part of their scum arsenal. Most of the evidence points to Lovebird/you. It doesn't point to Lovebird/BuJaber. BuJaber has been consistently pushing Lovebird D1 and then D2. He insisted that Lovebird absolutely needed to be lynched, then set up lynches based on Lovebird's townflip (a bizarre thing for a partner to do with the amount of confidence he had in his push). You want GL to be town and you're saying the team is Lovebird/BuJaber. Two things: 1) That worldview doesn't make sense to me. 2) I don't think that's a guaranteed loss for town at all if Lovebird is lynched and Icon is killed, you're going to be 1v1ing BuJaber with GL as the decider. And he's townreading you and scumreading BuJaber. If scum is indeed Lovebird/BuJaber like you say, town has it in the bag. But then you get frustrated and say that town won't win the game. If I was in your position assuming you're town, I'd go with the Lovebird lynch and then focus on convincing GL that BuJaber was scum. It would actually be a very winnable gamestate.
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Post Post #1382 (isolation #118) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:43 am

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Except neither me nor Icon will be there in LYLO. The only person remaining who is scumreading you is BuJaber (assuming Lovebird is lynched). Why are you conflating suspicion from us into an auto-loss in lylo?
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Post Post #1385 (isolation #119) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:46 am

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In post 1380, CheekyTeeky wrote:If by some cruel trick Ank was messing with us I think we should lynch me tomorrow in the best interests of town. If you let me get to Lylo we autolose so it's not as anti-town as you think.
I'm talking about this case where Ank flips scum (although not really feeling optimistic about it).
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Post Post #1388 (isolation #120) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:48 am

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I don't know. BuJaber is blatantly town. Why is this hard to see?
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Post Post #1394 (isolation #121) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:57 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Lovebird is confirmed scum. Check her profile. She's been last online Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:02:14 am. I'm pretty sure she's been online plenty in the past couple of days but didn't check in.
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Post Post #1395 (isolation #122) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 12:59 am

Post by BlackVoid »

BuJaber isn't Lovebird's partner and it's basically down to GL or Cheeky. I need to re-read how GL treated Lovebird D2 but I remember him pushing pretty hard in that direction D1. Not sure if I can rule out distancing yet.
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Post Post #1400 (isolation #123) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:18 am

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I'm heading off to bed. Good luck to town. @CheekyTeeky, if you're actually town I'm sorry for suspecting you twice in a row. I don't think it's your all-over-the-place playstyle than just the fact that I keep getting the feeling that you don't directly address arguments.

I guess lynch Love first. Then read through interactions to see why BuJaber doesn't make sense as a Love partner. As to which of you two is scum, I trust BuJaber to make the right call.

I can buy Lovebird/GreenLiquid. I think the whole mechanical lynch argument is one I made in my first scumgame. He didn't really have any reads he felt passionate about. He was quick to switch to Iconeum when I came in hard-pushing him. He was trying to choose between Ank and BuJaber and Lovebird didn't really seem to be on the table for him as a lynch. I also remember the last time I played with him, he started to get really paranoid of my slot but his reads seem a lot more straightforward here.
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Post Post #1403 (isolation #124) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:22 am

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Tl;dr - All I really feel confident about at this point is BuJaber town and Lovebird scum. Make sure Lovebird is lynched and BuJaber is not and we have a 50% chance of a win.
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Post Post #1407 (isolation #125) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:33 am

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Final note for Icon, take anything Ank says with a grain of salt. Ank just derailed a scum lynch onto herself so I really wouldn't trust any of her analysis. BuJaber is town.

Pedit: That feels fake as hell. How would you conclude it's GL/BuJaber as opposed to Lovebird/GL.

I'm going back to my analysis wall. Cheeky/Lovebird.
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Post Post #1409 (isolation #126) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:34 am

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Cheeky is extremely good with ATE and makes people second-guess reads. If you go by pure logic/evidence, Cheeky/Lovebird fits better than the other possibilities. Not lynching Lovebird tomorrow should be taken as a scumclaim. Cheeky is taking advantage of Ank's bad reads.
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Post Post #1410 (isolation #127) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:39 am

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There's also been a ton of discrediting going on based on previous misread and the "no amount of evidence will convince you" line makes zero sense when I'm the only one that provided any evidence. She provided none.
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Post Post #1413 (isolation #128) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:43 am

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Also, note how Cheeky completely ignored me pointing out that Lovebird was online earlier and my conclusion that she was probably online several times through the past few days. This confirms Lovebird as scum.
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Post Post #1414 (isolation #129) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:46 am

Post by BlackVoid »

In post 1404, CheekyTeeky wrote:
In post 841, GreenLiquid wrote:Cheeky: Iconeum flipping red would make me feel a little better about Lovebird, and based on his interactions with BuJaber I don't really see one of them being scum and pulling the wool over the other's eyes as very likely, so I'd be inclined to read Bu more town if Ico flips green, or scum if he flips red
.....LOL Ank is right.
You mean this? You are claiming that GL/BuJaber are scum because GL said BuJaber is town if Icon flips town and scummy if Icon flips scum? It's possible as something scum can say about one another but taking one thing that's possible and trying to draw a conclusion based off of that when we have confirmed scum in Lovebird is a pretty huge stretch. And it's nowhere near the plethora of evidence pointing to you/Lovebird.
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Post Post #1417 (isolation #130) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:48 am

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In post 1412, CheekyTeeky wrote:For example have you noticed Bu AtE when I pushed on him? No because it's a contradiction to your idea he's town.
ATE is a scumtell now? If that's the case, you should be confirmed scum to yourself. You've been ATEing for pages and pages. That's actually part of my case against you. For someone who ATE's as much as you do, your inability to empathize with BuJaber's frustration is weird.
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Post Post #1418 (isolation #131) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:52 am

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In post 1416, BuJaber wrote:It's not up to me void. GL has to vote for cheeky instead of me.

I have the advantage of knowing I am town and being attacked since the beginning. GL if town is the one being buddied and has to deal with the uncertainty.
Okay, good luck. I'll be really happy if you're town and able to pull this through to a win. I don't want to lose my 5 game win streak because I screwed up with Ank-slot.
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Post Post #1419 (isolation #132) » Tue Apr 24, 2018 1:54 am

Post by BlackVoid »

Also, don't forget this:
In post 1413, BlackVoid wrote:Also, note how Cheeky completely ignored me pointing out that Lovebird was online earlier and my conclusion that she was probably online several times through the past few days. This confirms Lovebird as scum.
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Post Post #1473 (isolation #133) » Thu Apr 26, 2018 7:55 pm

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Good game everyone. GreenLiquid carried the scumteam and deserved the win. It would have taken a lot of effort to figure out that he was the last scum. I started wondering if it was actually GreenLiquid as opposed to Cheeky towards the end but by that time, the thread was locked. I don't really understand why BuJaber was suspected here. He was closest to "obvtown" that anyone was in this game.

There was a time during D2 (before I claimed) that I was considering quick-hammering Lovebird. Missed opportunity. I really wish I didn't get distracted with Ank. It looks like my scumhunting is pretty rusty. My misreads on Ank and Cheeky pretty much lost the game. I don't get why you voted so quickly though BuJaber. I thought we agreed Lovebird was going to be the lynch and if you and Cheeky had spent 3-way analyzing interactions with each other, we may have pulled through.

This game was somewhat interesting in that me and BuJaber seemed to make sense to each other while CheekyTeeky and Ankamius made sense to each other. But it certainly seemed like neither camp was able to understand where the other was coming from. It also looked like scum aligned themselves on opposing sides. Lovebird was somehow townread by Cheeky and Ank while GreenLiquid was scumread. Whereas me and BuJaber seemed perfectly confident Lovebird was mafia but somehow missed that GreenLiquid was too. I guess if I had been able to communicate better with people like Ankamius, it might have turned out differently (example and ), we might have been able to realize that the scum were people who
weren't
blatantly town. Apologies to Ank/Cheeky for scumreading/mislynching you. I'll dissect this game to see where I went wrong going forward.
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Post Post #1476 (isolation #134) » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:20 pm

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In post 1455, Lovebird wrote:I thought about leaving BV alive to counterclaim him as cop today, lol.
I thought that this might be the case. That's why I kept checking your profile to see if you were online. I really, really wish you did since it would have been a town win for sure due to me pointing out that you were online towards the end of D2 but didn't post and the fact that I investigated GreenLiquid last night.

I was going to use ZZZX's quickhammer on N_M to show that he was softing even then. He didn't want pressure to turn on him so he hammer Not_Mafia before anyone could move the wagon.
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Post Post #1477 (isolation #135) » Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:24 pm

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I'm the one that said you were obvtown. I disagree with your logic precisely because of what happened. Your best bet is to lynch the most obvious scum first and then go all out trying to figure out who the other scum is. I've seen too many times town lose because they vote against someone who believes they have no chance of convincing. But the real wins come when you actually try to convince them. If you had lynched Lovebird, somehow figured out in LYLO that GreenLiquid was scum and voted him, you never know what Cheeky might have done but it's worth a try.
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Post Post #1485 (isolation #136) » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:24 pm

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@Ank, it's definitely not unlikely for town to townread scum even if they were universally scumread. I think when you came in townreading Lovebird, a lot of us fell into the trap of assuming that you were either defending your partner or townreading someone you knew to be town and the lynch kinda swayed towards you. I could have definitely spent more time explaining to you why I was scumreading Lovebird. My biggest issue was that I never understood what exactly made you townread her. That coupled with your POE somehow winding up with me and my biggest townread BuJaber being the ones you weren't townreading made me think the reads were fake.

If this was you explaining your thoughts, I don't know what you play like in other games, lol. My biggest problem with was that I was trying to get you to make really in-depth posts with explanations and they just weren't coming no matter what.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean when I say going with the evidence. I don't mean trying to figure out logical flaws in people's plays because oftentimes town make logical leaps just as much as scum. I just mean weighing the evidence rather than just going with your gut or just because you have a feeling that x might be scum. I think the fact that we only had 48 hours after replacement hurt us because Lovebird avoided the thread during that entire time.
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Post Post #1486 (isolation #137) » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:28 pm

Post by BlackVoid »

I guess I'm used to being generally townread as town so townreading all these other people and saying me and BuJaber were the least town seemed really weird to me.
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