Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[GuiltyLion]

Scumslips don't happen.

who are you and what did you do with the real Mathdino

also hi everybody!

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: verydark

I can sheep this

also my hot take is gonna be pops vs Gamma is TvT

[GuiltyLion]

I think subsequently claiming Gamma has reacted badly to it is a flawed argument and somewhat opportunistic. He's also defended the Mason+Scum hunting strategy in 48 and it's incredibly flawed.

if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?

[GuiltyLion]

pops made a massive stretch with his initial post, regardless of your views on masoning - pretty poor, but hey it pulled us out of RVS which I'm happy about, overall NAI (or NI for pops cause apparently mason+scum is a good hunting strategy). I think subsequently claiming Gamma has reacted badly to it is a flawed argument and somewhat opportunistic. He's also defended the Mason+Scum hunting strategy in 48 and it's incredibly flawed.

the more I read this the scummier it seems - "massive" stretch is an exaggeration, LAMIST "I'm happy to be out of RVS", opinions at the end aren't reflected through his vote or any form of direct engagement or pressure towards pops

[GuiltyLion]

also I think the Serious Business team (NSG/Kmd/Mathdino/davesaz) is all town and ready to TAKE CHARGE of this game

[GuiltyLion]

serious business team got all 5 town role pms

[GuiltyLion]

Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?

[GuiltyLion]

you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made

[GuiltyLion]

if this is how you feel, why not vote pops? Your vote is still your RVS on Mathdino, has your read on him changed?

Flawed =/= scummy. We've gotten the outcome of pressure from pops in his fairly strident defence of mason-hunting. I think it's stupid, but I'm mulling over scumminess at the moment. What is my vote going to achieve? I'm not convinced it's scummy, and I've seen the reaction that I was looking for.

My read on Mathdino is changing, but he's got his own thing going on and I'm not going to speak of possibilities there before it's had a chance to play out and we can draw some conclusions.

You're complaining about deadline, but then asking me what your vote is going to achieve? It should be obvious what your vote is going to achieve - pressure on pops and pressure on other players to commit to reads on the wagon. It generates far more information than leaving a RVS vote and offering some opinions without any real meat behind them.

the more I read this the scummier it seems - "massive" stretch is an exaggeration, LAMIST "I'm happy to be out of RVS", opinions at the end aren't reflected through his vote or any form of direct engagement or pressure towards pops

What about being out of RVS is LAMIST? It's a personal opinion that I (personally, me, Sando) am happy that we're out of RVS. I'm happy about that as any alignment. I also engaged with pops (21 & 24) during that whole discussion to try to draw out more information, which you're conveniently ignoring.

I think town is less likely to call attention to the game being out of RVS and taking enjoyment about that - it felt awkwardly shoehorned into your post rather than a genuine expression. also I'm not "ignoring" your 21 and 24 so much as those are pretty NAI safe posts that didn't tell me anything. I feel more strongly about the fact that you're apparently worried about deadline yet simultaneously failing to do any game advancing via a serious vote - especially when the opportunity is handed to you in the form of a non-RVS wagon on the player you've called out the most strongly so far

[GuiltyLion]

If this is how you feel, why not vote Sando?

Second on VD wagon, desperate for Dino approval before voting me...

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

[GuiltyLion]

I'm really going to need you to get me off L-3, please.

who should we vote instead?

[GuiltyLion]

hypocrisy is more of a towntell if anything

I actually kind of like that Sando tried to throw my own language back at me, not sure that scum would go straight for the snark there, but he still hasn't offered a good scumread or vote so far

[GuiltyLion]

a) I'm not voting you because I believe the verydark wagon is doing more for the gamestate than a vanity vote - thanks for asking me, though!
b) Why is being "second on VD wagon" scummy?
c) How am I desperate for his approval?

a) What are you trying to get out of it gamestate wise?
b) It's not, in isolation, but see above, not voting me, and the desperation for someone else to weigh in on me before you vote...a pattern emerges!
c)

Math do you see what I'm saying about Sando though?

you don't have to trust me at all to engage with the points I have made

He's engaged, gives incredibly weak (ie say nothing about my alignment) reasons for why "that's just Sando", and you magically back off.

Looks like you're trying to get someone to make the first move with you, and when they won't, you back down.

a) the posts from verydark in 84 and 89, maybe also see if anyone tries to preempt the wagon and WK it. You yourself acknowledged the wagon was doing things in 86, yet you aren't going to give me any credit for that?
b) I didn't ask anyone for approval before voting verydark. And also, frankly, I'm not some wuss scum who is too scared to make a vote on my own, I've been around the block and played tons of scumgames. Also as a math major, even if you were spot on with this point, two data points does not make a pattern. and you should be more careful against using strong language like "desperate" when it's really not substantiated in my posts or my actions, because that kind of bs embellishment is what looks like scum fabricating scumreads.
c) I didn't back off - I don't want to spam up the thread too much and literally maybe like one hour has transpired. Again, you're exaggerating and ascribing "patterns" to single events - that's bad townplay

plus, watch this:
VOTE: Mathdino

you're absolutely right that his "meta" point on you was weak and his "GL most likely to be scum" posts seem more like they're meant to discredit me and my reads rather than something he genuinely feels about my alignment

p-edit: well I was gonna hop off before the self vote but now I'm definitely gonna hop off

[GuiltyLion]

can you not self-vote and vote Mathdino instead

[GuiltyLion]

It's hard for me to see GLs vote as anything other than a test tbh

what kind of test

[GuiltyLion]

I don't know how to respond to the "GL most likely scum on the team" point. I think you misinterpreted me saying "i trust your townreads more than your scumreads" as me saying "i don't trust your alignment", when I really mean "if you're town, i will sheep you on your townreads but not necessarily your scumreads, and in this case i don't think you're onto something".

If it looks like I'm being lazy communicating, you're right. We're in a weird position of having a few players that are likely to post less than once a day. So far the gamestate reads to me as almost all the active players being town too (something I've seen happen). I want to see more people weigh in.

Re: Verydark: I was hard townreading his reaction but I really can't get past the self-vote. People on MS self-vote way too much nowadays and it's gotten to the point of making scum-AtE incredibly viable because no one's willing to lynch that shit.

ah I actually vibe with this a lot

because you're totally right, I thought you saying "I trust your townreads more than your scumreads" was a cheeky way of saying something more akin to "I think you're scum"

UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

...this work for you?

Hello everybody! Let’s get some scum!

VOTE: Agent Sparkles

...the post that caused you to want to create a "historical moment"

Oh my god you're so clueless

@Gamma

what was your point with this post?

also, I don't like how Gamma then progresses to this

I wasn't sure what my issue with the initial reaction was but this puts it into place. It's that his reactions sorta don't match with much other than scum. His initial reaction was one I figured either mason or scum would have (since either has quite the incentive to not get lynched), but his self-vote completely threw out the possibility of him being mason.
VOTE: very dark
we always lynch this today

a) no, we don't "always" lynch this today
b) a couple of posts ago you called him clueless, now you call him scum. So in your view, how did scum!verydark misinterpret Dino's "historic" comment? Like, let's say verydark is scum and he truly believes that Dino believes that quicklynching him D1 would be "historic". Wouldn't it make sense in verydark's head that it would actually be somewhat 'historic' to quicklynch a scum on D1? Why does he overreact like that to another player

correctly

scumreading him?
c) I don't even really agree that the self-vote strictly means "not mason" tbh

[GuiltyLion]

So I'm holding a referendum. Everyone is invited (but not required) to give their opinion about a longer deadline. I'm proposing extending the deadline to 11 real life days per game day (other proposals welcome, but this is a baseline if there is strong support for extending it but no concensus on how long.)

I am

FOR

11 day deadline

[GuiltyLion]

I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.

this is a garbage townread

what were the "right questions" in Gamma's ISO and why were they the "right time"? And also, why is anything he's posted less likely to come from scum?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: BuJaber

I think both BuJaber and Gamma have high likelihood of being scum. I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that verydark should be policied at some point for the self-vote, but I don't think he's a very informative flip or wagon at this stage anymore because it's going to be super easy for scum to vote him on the basis of the AtE and the self-vote. Would like a lot more discussion and maybe some alternative wagons before we all pile on the dude just because he flipped out at being wagoned

[GuiltyLion]

I like NSG, MathDino, Sando, Agent Sparkles, pops for town. kmd, davesaz, and verydark are lighter townleans. BuJaber and Gamma have looked actively scummy. Mylo/Kop null.

[GuiltyLion]

Sando seems to me like someone trying to look busy. I don't know exactly what he was trying to gain from the mathdino interrogation. It looked like a lot of pedantic questioning on very specific things that seem irrelevant. Also his vote on GL is rather suspicious and I can't figure out the town motivation for it. I disagree that it is townie to turn people's arguments for SRing you against them. In my experience it's what scum tends to do because they are trying to point the spotlight away from themselves.
But the points he makes about waiting to see the consequences of dino's reactions seem genuine and logical. I have a slight scumlean here.

also this looks to me like scum trying to stir the pot in an early TvT

[GuiltyLion]

PR hunting on this site is easy.

same

like when I'm scum the hardest part about PR hunting is the fact that I assume townies are intentionally trying to WIFOM when most of the time they're not even

[GuiltyLion]

when I'm by far the most likely NK.

whoa whoa whoa

let's not get too ahead of ourselves

[GuiltyLion]

I'd like to start scum-hunting and stop doing damage control.

that's entirely within your power to do so and many players are scumreading you because you haven't yet

[GuiltyLion]

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

I feel like this is scum trying to break up a townbloc but not willing to go for a specific player yet

also BuJaber why no reaction to my vote on you?

[GuiltyLion]

the Sando case isn't bad but I'm not really reading Sando as scum anymore, at a certain point it felt like my issues with him were more playstyle based than alignment based. He's shown a consistent penchant for exaggerating and riffing on NAI topics but I gut feel like he's genuinely trying to sort

like I don't really disagree with this:

Essentially all of this is attacking Gamma because... he disagrees with Gamma's claim of what he would do as mason here. Nothing in this post shows any kind of scum behavior or motivation, it's just attacking his belief of optimal play. Yet he puts enough stock into this to throw a ton of shade on him and switch his vote over it. And the "we always lynch this today" is just as trivial, since it's obviously ignoring possible mason claims.

but I think Sando's posts/push could make sense from a town perspective if he genuinely thought that Gamma was trying to direct a mason recruit

[GuiltyLion]

Is it weird if I think kop might be town for those two posts?

Nah I was actually feeling the same way

[GuiltyLion]

In the middle of that s/he comments on gamma's nickname for vdark. I feel that scum who are eager to make a fake case on someone would not stop in the middle of the post to defend the same person from a non-game relevant comment. Scum would likely ignore irrelevant stuff like that because they'd be self-conscious about veering off-topic but more so if they are also in the process of fakung a scumread.

Maybe I'm biased/tunneled at this point but I feel like this thought process is fake - pops commenting on the name thing is more of a personality tell, I don't see a compelling reason to read anything alignment indicative in it. This looks more like BuJaber is reaching for reasons to justify an artificial townread on pops rather than something he naturally arrived at himself.

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: GammaEmerald

The partner thing killed it for me.

Can't be much more anti-town than that.

Still would like to lynch Math, but that's seemingly less likely.

this also feels fake. We've already covered that townies do anti-town things, it doesn't make them scum. And I don't see how after MathDino rips on his reads list, verydark just says "ok, still would like to lynch Math" yet just abandons that conversation and push.

also I am also coming around to a townread on Gamma if I haven't said that already

Removed close-to-modcolor usage.

[GuiltyLion]

meh I'm waffling a lot on verydark though, feel a lot better about the BuJaber scumread

[GuiltyLion]

Someone explicitly townread Agent Sparkles, not sure why.

GL did so in 178, which did stick out as weird to me.

the main thing was that I've played with Agent Sparkles before, we were both scum together, and I felt like he was playing more obviously transparent/genuine in his opening here than in that game. It's a pretty weak reason to townread him and not something I'd swear by - especially because that was one of his first games and he's likely a better player now - but I just wanted to start town-binning to try to put some PoE pressure on scum. if AS is town then I think people discrediting townreads on him (on D1) may be useful information later

[GuiltyLion]

It's not.

BuJaber thought that I was arguing that the phrasing "objectively scummy" is used by scum

to try to mislynch people because of their playstyle, and he was trying to refute that argument.

see but I think it's valid to think that scum!BuJaber is more likely to assume this than town!BuJaber. I feel like a townie would be more inclined to continue defending their reasoning, rather than jump to defending their alignment.

[GuiltyLion]

I forgot to vote VOTE: dave

BuJaber - what's your current read on verydark? I'm puzzled that you left a leading wagon to make a vanity vote here without giving us an update on your verydark scumread

[GuiltyLion]

oh and one other reason for townreading AS was that he did my pet "make one read in the process of catching up and then flip it a few posts later" towntell when he went from scum-leaning me in 152 to town leaning me in 158. Most scum don't bother to fake that especially since I wasn't a focal point at that stage in the game

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not trying to nail a 3p scumteam on D1. I'd currently lynch BuJaber and verydark in that order probably, then hunt for a 3rd in Mylo/Kmd/pops/davesaz depending on flips. If either of the current leading wagons are scum, I don't think there's any bussing in the 1.6 vote count.

[GuiltyLion]

I do think the pops vs Bujaber conflict in #415 feels weird, I thought it might be SvS (I already scum-leaned Bujaber) but I was null on pops, and if pops is scum, that would make my scum list even bigger, so I don't really know. I do still scum-lean Bujaber.

Something_Smart is echoing his predecessor, and I generally agree with his points so he's a town-read for me.

then why aren't you voting Bujaber? You're both scumreading eachother but not voting eachother.

Also which points from Smart do you agree with specifically? I feel like the strongest thing he's done in the game is defend BuJaber, who you are scumreading.

[GuiltyLion]

Can you go into some detail on your reasons for scumreading BuJaber? I see a few mentions that he's scummy and the two things you mentioned (trying to stir the pot, trying to justify a town read) up to the point of this post don't do anything for me. Those two points would seem like confirmation bias except that I don't see an original reason for the read.

it's a general pattern where all the reasons he gives for townreading/scumreading people seem artificial to me:

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

MathDino's opening post was a meme about our Team Mafia team. Like maybe I'll grant a bit of a reach that "town!MathDino is more likely to think about calling the scumteam than scum!MathDino", but generally the joke is totally NAI and I don't see any reason to discount the possibility that a scum!Dino could have posted it.

Pops' subsequent posts give a much better impression. Particularly post 139 which gave me a very townie vibe.

139 is kind of a long and all-over-the-place post and there's no explanation here about what makes it townie.

I hate verydark's reactions. I hate his self vote. While I agree that it does come from both alignments the timing of the self-vote is just as important as the vote itself. There really is very little motivation for town to put themselves at L-1. Frustrated town who give up self-hammer. Frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier. Self-voting so close to a wagon is terrible.

this whole bit rests on the idea that "frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier", but I don't really see any reason to believe that. This logic reads to me more like BuJaber wanted to start from the position of "self-voting to L-1 is scummy" and backwards justified it.

I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.

and at the time I thought this townread was egregiously bad, Gamma was kind of a pet scumread of mine at the time so I was personally flummoxed someone could be townreading him and there weren't any "right questions" that he had asked at the "right time".

In the middle of that s/he comments on gamma's nickname for vdark. I feel that scum who are eager to make a fake case on someone would not stop in the middle of the post to defend the same person from a non-game relevant comment. Scum would likely ignore irrelevant stuff like that because they'd be self-conscious about veering off-topic but more so if they are also in the process of fakung a scumread.

to which I say,

Maybe I'm biased/tunneled at this point but I feel like this thought process is fake - pops commenting on the name thing is more of a personality tell, I don't see a compelling reason to read anything alignment indicative in it. This looks more like BuJaber is reaching for reasons to justify an artificial townread on pops rather than something he naturally arrived at himself.

Also he's given some reasons for scumreading Dave that were already called out as simply playstyle (by multiple players):

He said TR'd guilty for 2 posts looking like town without saying what about them looks town.
His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.
His posts seems rather detached and passive like he doesn't want to create waves. Several of which are about wording and general things like that that don't require sorting people.

and the whole reason he even seemed to start suspecting Dave is because he went at it from a "who would be scum in NSG/MathDino/GL/Dave/kmd", which is a forced angle to take to begin with.

I do honestly have some doubts because he's been so consistent with these robotic, empty-feeling bad reads that I'm wondering if it could be playstyle friction. But then I'm also getting the vibe that he's been ignoring my repeated tunnel on him and the growing wagon as a way of hoping it gets defused/distracted? Like he townreads me and Gamma and pops but we're all voting him and he's not really trying to push us elsewhere or help us directly townread him (other than his reach out to me in 257, being fair). It just all feels detached and cautious and careful in a way that pings me as scum

[GuiltyLion]

Guiltylion, yeah that sounds more like you just disagree with him than anything....

It's not just that I disagree with him

It's that I think the things he claims to think feel forced or retro-actively justified to fit a predetermined conclusion, which is a hallmark of how scum play the game. I don't see how a townie looks at pops defending VD over Gamma's nickname/joke and thinks "scum would never defend someone for an out of game reason that they're pushing for an in game reason at the same time, therefore pops is town!". Town are uninformed and don't make questionable leaps/assumptions like that, and he's done it multiple times. Instead it feels a lot more like the kind of thing you come up with when you're scum and you say "hmm, what's a plausible sounding reason to townread this townie".

[GuiltyLion]

Something_Smart also has very low content. He posts, but doesn't say much, and I always feel like that's a good place to be when you just want to survive the day.

this is not at all why, I'm just busy and I haven't found much to say.

I will say this though: we need a counterwagon to BuJaber.

verydark was the counterwagon to BuJaber

[GuiltyLion]

(And by the way GL, Bu was the counterwagon to verydark, not the other way around.)

what is the relevant difference? There was a solid few days where both were substantial wagons and people chose to be on one or the other. Then the verydark wagon dissipated and mostly spread elsewhere, why does that necessitate another counterwagon? What's gained from that?

I'm townreading everyone voting BuJaber in some form or another. It's a Good Wagon

[GuiltyLion]

Thought his bit about having too many townreads (531-532-534) seemed very genuine.

also I don't follow you here at all

it's so easy to say "I have too many townreads" as scum. And if you're scum, you often have too many townreads, because you know who is town, they look townier to you, and you feel more pressure to townread them. Sometimes scum wind up townreading too many players and become POE suspects when they run out of plausible/believable mislynches to push. Like, almost by definition scum are more likely to have too many townreads than town.

[GuiltyLion]

BuJaber has declared himself V/LA until April 1st through his user profile.

also, just as a heads up, this is basically up until deadline

so we aren't going to get much more content from BuJaber today

[GuiltyLion]

Relevant difference is, people saw the verydark wagon and chose not to join it, and instead created the BuJaber wagon. The BuJaber wagon was created because people did not want to continue pursuing the verydark wagon.
There has been no wagon that has arisen because people don't want to continue pursuing the BuJaber wagon; but I feel that way, and therefore I would like one.

This is fair, point taken

Easy to do as scum != scum are likely to do it.

Scum like to keep their options open. And I don't really think that people look townier when you're scum, because you're not really in the mindset of trying to identify scum but rather trying to find things that you can plausibly sell as scum. It takes extreme introspective and metacognitive abilities to replicate exactly how you would read people if you were town, so most likely scum are not going off how people actually seem to them but rather they are going off of what they deem strategically good and also believable.

There's also some anecdotal evidence, in that I have had this problem before as town. And the fact that he's trying to solve it means that he recognizes that it is, in fact, a problem.

this on the other hand I still disagree with pretty hard.

I'm not saying BuJaber is likely scum for saying "I have too many townreads", I'm saying if you're townreading him primarily for that it's entirely NAI and I challenge your townread, because it can just as likely come from scum as town. The entire paragraph re: "Scum like to keep their options open" is just how you personally play scum. On the other hand, I

do

try to play scum by trying to emulate my towngame and find reads that I'd plausibly have as town, and that requires me to generally townread people that I don't think I'd ever scumread as town. And in that process I'm going to be biased because now I'm operating from a point where I

know

they are town.

I have noticed that as scum I tend to put a bit too much stock in things looking townie that may have actually not looked as townie if I were in an uninformed town perspective. And you even say the reads need to be "believable" - what if he thinks it wouldn't be believable to scumread most of the players in this game?

I've had too many townreads as town before too, but again, just because someone makes a post/statement that resonates with how you've felt as town in past games does not at all clear them in this one. No scum would say "I have too many townreads" and not even pretend to have a problem with it, that's just bad play. And what has he

actually done

since then to try to solve it?

[GuiltyLion]

also Mathdino has been harping on the "I have too many townreads" stuff at a few points earlier in this game (at least as early as 394) and it's also entirely possible for scum!BuJaber to be parroting that to some degree

[GuiltyLion]

if i had to start cutting into my townreads, pops would be the place to start

If I were you I'd look at KMD before I look into pops

Gamma what do you think of Smart's push onto brass? That's about the most notable new thing here I think

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma what do you think of Smart's push onto brass? That's about the most notable new thing here I think

actually wait you did already comment on it

idk

[GuiltyLion]

even if BuJaber's not scum I feel like scum aren't voting him

[GuiltyLion]

I'll put this here for now, because I'm hesitant to put Bujaber at L-1 unless anyone wants to give me their blessing.

stop worrying about how you're coming off and worry more about lynching scum. Unless you think pops is more likely to be scum than BuJaber, voting pops instead of BuJaber is a bad vote

[GuiltyLion]

NGL that's the first time i've ever seen a "meh whatever" lynch flip scum

uh excuse me some of us were death tunneling BuJaber as scum for the entirety of the day

[GuiltyLion]

like were you not scumreading BuJaber yourself? I feel like you're downplaying the multitude of reasons we all had for voting him. If scum bussed then I think it happened late in the day once the lynch started becoming inevitable. The first four voters or so I'm comfortable locking as town, and said as much here:

I'm not trying to nail a 3p scumteam on D1. I'd currently lynch BuJaber and verydark in that order probably, then hunt for a 3rd in Mylo/Kmd/pops/davesaz depending on flips. If either of the current leading wagons are scum, I don't think there's any bussing in the 1.6 vote count.

KMD indirectly tried to push me off of BuJaber several times and that's where I'd like to start today.

VOTE: kmd

[GuiltyLion]

go through KMD's ISO and cmd+F "BuJ" and see what I see

[GuiltyLion]

Smart you honestly have no room to be critiquing my scumreads after your play yesterday

Who is your preferred lynch

[GuiltyLion]

The beginning of the Bu wagon is like literally the worst place to look, but okay

if you're town you're overthinking yourself and when KMD flips scum I will get to wear the Scumhunter Extraordinaire badge post game

[GuiltyLion]

I'd say like 50-60%

obviously I will wait for people to check in and if Mathdino firmly insists not to lynch KMD then maybe I'll reconsider but at this point I'd say he's the definitely the most likely partner off the wagon. 3rd is probably a late busser in either Mylo/verydark, maaaaybe brass but I still think AS was town. Wildcard LUV for scumreading BuJ but voting elsewhere, but I'm not super interested in that lead for a few days.

[GuiltyLion]

I disagree with verydark being a possible third with kmd/Buj

yeah I'd probably say more likely Mylo than verydark

verydark's end of day play was weird but probably not scum weird

[GuiltyLion]

Scumhunter extraordinaire with 50-60% confidence?

And why do you feel Sparkles is town?

hey I mean I'm never more than like 80% confident on a scumread so 50-60 is high.

Someone explicitly townread Agent Sparkles, not sure why.

GL did so in 178, which did stick out as weird to me.

the main thing was that I've played with Agent Sparkles before, we were both scum together, and I felt like he was playing more obviously transparent/genuine in his opening here than in that game. It's a pretty weak reason to townread him and not something I'd swear by - especially because that was one of his first games and he's likely a better player now - but I just wanted to start town-binning to try to put some PoE pressure on scum. if AS is town then I think people discrediting townreads on him (on D1) may be useful information later

oh and one other reason for townreading AS was that he did my pet "make one read in the process of catching up and then flip it a few posts later" towntell when he went from scum-leaning me in 152 to town leaning me in 158. Most scum don't bother to fake that especially since I wasn't a focal point at that stage in the game

[GuiltyLion]

Kmd and GL are good scum players and while they've done a bunch of pro-town things, I'm uncomfortable putting them under "neverlynch". They haven't exactly completely towntold yet (Kmd lightly did early game).

I started off scum reading GL and that turned into a town read.
I started off town reading Kmd and that turned into a scum read.
Guess they're the next two to reread.

This is the next thing I'm doing.

did the BuJaber flip affect your reads at all

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not really opposed to a verydark lynch today if it comes down to it

main thing I would like to hear at the moment is if KMD still thinks verydark is scum

my lynchpool is something like {KMD, verydark, Mylo, GC}. If the townies in that group could start towntelling that'd be good

{Math, Gamma, Smart} is the hard townbloc. I'll review davesaz given what Math just said but I can see him in there too probably. {LUV, brass} have conditional memberships to the townbloc pending good D2 and D3 behavior and further scumflips from others.

[GuiltyLion]

I have read through all of this, and feel thoroughly empty of opinions.

I'm finally back, apologies for being completely absent so far.
[snip]
Pretty much everyone else left no notable impression on me so far.

Hi, lurker coming from out of the shadows!

...And I'm still just as useless as I've been before. I'm sorry, but I just don't know what to say. I think after this game is over I'm going to have to stick to smaller games, because I'm struggling to tell people apart and analysis behaviors or anything.

But. I am going to actually make use of this game, and post at least some actual thoughts or analysis on this game later tonight, and then hopefully I'll have an idea going forward.

To LUV, I would consider replacing if I wouldn't get blacklisted from other games from that. I'll just make sure I don't go in any future big games.

To Kmd, The only people I'd give light scum reads to is BuJaber and dave, both for awkward dialogue.

do you really think scum doubles down on this "i don't know what the fuck i'm doing shtick" for the entirety of his ISO

this is your main reason for townreading myloninja, yes? I don't really see that as impossible to come from scum

he's not my first pick but he's by no means clear

Gamma I've just been on the same wavelength with for the majority of the game - after I got over his initial vd push/vote, I saw a lot of genuine thought process and intent to sort throughout his ISO. Also his vote on BuJaber stayed put throughout crunch time D1 and was one of the more pivotal votes to making it the leading wagon and eventual lynch, don't really see a reason to suspect him at all

[GuiltyLion]

that vote is not gonna end well for you

do you really think I have any incentive to make these posts as scum:

I think gamma is town. He is asking the right questions at the right time. That read becomes more solid if pops flips scum because their interaction does not seem like SvS at all.

this is a garbage townread

what were the "right questions" in Gamma's ISO and why were they the "right time"? And also, why is anything he's posted less likely to come from scum?

I do think the pops vs Bujaber conflict in #415 feels weird, I thought it might be SvS (I already scum-leaned Bujaber) but I was null on pops, and if pops is scum, that would make my scum list even bigger, so I don't really know. I do still scum-lean Bujaber.

Something_Smart is echoing his predecessor, and I generally agree with his points so he's a town-read for me.

then why aren't you voting Bujaber? You're both scumreading eachother but not voting eachother.

Also which points from Smart do you agree with specifically? I feel like the strongest thing he's done in the game is defend BuJaber, who you are scumreading.

Guiltylion, yeah that sounds more like you just disagree with him than anything....

It's not just that I disagree with him

It's that I think the things he claims to think feel forced or retro-actively justified to fit a predetermined conclusion, which is a hallmark of how scum play the game. I don't see how a townie looks at pops defending VD over Gamma's nickname/joke and thinks "scum would never defend someone for an out of game reason that they're pushing for an in game reason at the same time, therefore pops is town!". Town are uninformed and don't make questionable leaps/assumptions like that, and he's done it multiple times. Instead it feels a lot more like the kind of thing you come up with when you're scum and you say "hmm, what's a plausible sounding reason to townread this townie".

I'm townreading everyone voting BuJaber in some form or another. It's a Good Wagon

Thought his bit about having too many townreads (531-532-534) seemed very genuine.

also I don't follow you here at all

it's so easy to say "I have too many townreads" as scum. And if you're scum, you often have too many townreads, because you know who is town, they look townier to you, and you feel more pressure to townread them. Sometimes scum wind up townreading too many players and become POE suspects when they run out of plausible/believable mislynches to push. Like, almost by definition scum are more likely to have too many townreads than town.

like the only way I make sense as a BuJaber partner is if I decided to go all in on dunking him D1 hoping that the towncred would take me and my partner all the way through endgame. That's a conspiracy theory angle to take when the more likely explanation is that I'm town who hit on a scumread and other players who avoided pushing BuJaber - especially early in the day - are his partners.

[GuiltyLion]

sorry for my absence - will get to this either in a bit or tomorrow

[GuiltyLion]

I'ma get to this either late tonight (5-6 hours) or tomorrow - sorry for being away

[GuiltyLion]

Green Crayons, I've used this name on multiple sites over the course of about 18 years and I don't recall ever being referred to as "md", although someone has been calling me just "k" lately which is new.

Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me for anyone to refer to you as Md either. Which is why this interaction caught my eye:

Spoiler:

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

Or scum being very very very 'calculating'?

*leaves the building before the boos*

Don't town read me for that. I'd do it as scum too.

Noted

MD is mathdino ftr.. I should probably say dino in this game to avoid confusion.

It looks like you were overly conscious of what BuJaber was posting to the point of thinking he was referring to you. In response, he went along with it, but then realized he hadn't actually referred to you and corrected himself. It's just weird.

ohhhh i didn't know what that was about ok

yeah i could probably lynch KMD for that now that i think about it

Why would I be overly concerned about a scum buddy's read on me?

Like if any of those posts to BuJaber were scum coaching, why wouldn't it be in the scum PT? And why attack everyone else's votes on him if he was a buddy clearly going g down? That would be much worse scum play than I'm capable of. I just had a bad read which happens plenty.

both of these posts read like scum defense to me. The "what's my scum motivation for doing this thing?" is an easy and effective question to ask as scum and it makes people doubt themselves without actually justifying or explaining your thoughts/posts. It's hard to write a bulletproof scum case on someone even when you're right. kmd should be proactively explaining his play, not forcing his accusers to further justify their accusations.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not really opposed to a verydark lynch today if it comes down to it

main thing I would like to hear at the moment is if KMD still thinks verydark is scum

my lynchpool is something like {KMD, verydark, Mylo, GC}. If the townies in that group could start towntelling that'd be good

{Math, Gamma, Smart} is the hard townbloc. I'll review davesaz given what Math just said but I can see him in there too probably. {LUV, brass} have conditional memberships to the townbloc pending good D2 and D3 behavior and further scumflips from others.

so I've caught up and read since my last real posts, but my reads have not evolved too much from here other than I think GC's posting looks fairly townie and I'm no longer interested in any lynch on him for a while. It's not outside super-good scumrange but I think it's enough to move the needle to likely townie. Mylo also feels more and more like a lynchbait town rather than a scum. I didn't come up with any of the thoughts in GC's 966 myself but I like it a lot and I could see dave being scum. Still more interested/confident on kmd but not opposed to a dave wagon.

I'm probably here now
{Math, Gamma, Smart}
{Ank, GC, Mylo}
{brass, verydark}
{davesaz}
{kmd}

[GuiltyLion]

Vote Count 2.6

Votee	Voters
Myloninja13 (4)	Kmd4390 (863), brassherald (914), Mathdino (842), davesaz (948)
Kmd4390 (3)	GuiltyLion (734), Gamma Emerald (789), Myloninja13 (882)

Not voting:

Ankamius, Green Crayons, Something_Smart, verydark

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch. The deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-15 17:15:00).

also because I haven't seen anything that makes me want to reconsider kmd to be town, this very VC itself makes me consider Mylo more likely to be a scum-driven counterwagon on a townie. Even if kmd is a mislynch, Mylo feels like a "more convenient mislynch" and I don't at all trust the bloc of voters on him. The brass and davesaz votes are particularly bad

[GuiltyLion]

other than Mathdino, I fully trust him, he gets a pass since his vote is a protest vote and may have actually baited the scum!dave vote

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not buying it. I'm not kidding. Town would have something more to say than a yawn.

can you respond directly to GC's point that earlier you explicitly discredited Mylo's efforts to put reads into the game?

[GuiltyLion]

cuz mylo is town and i'm really not sure who to fucking lynch if kmd comes up town from metadive

also Math you should look at 966 again I find it a really convincing post

also b2b pagetop

[GuiltyLion]

going further into this, I think dave's play around BuJaber D1 is kind of sketch:

Tried to think of something witty, but my wife is dragging me out the door to go shopping.
VOTE: BuJaber

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

That "prediction" is NAI. It's a joke based on our Team Mafia team.

early distancing

VOTE: darkside
Deadline is much shorter than normal so we can't mess around and wait a week before generating movement of some kind.

moves off of BuJaber and this vote feels fairly over-explainy in hindsight

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be.

I think this is a big stretch. There are 5 of us, to generalize like this you would need to be able to determine a number of our reads on each other.
I don't think many people have stated many reads in general this game. Can you point to some?

This is kind of a softball, like dave is interacting with BuJaber here but he's not applying a lot of pressure. Feels like it could be the kind of "academic disagreement" that scum like to have to distance but not actually push eachother.

Verydark still looks like a good lynch.

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

I think it's Dave.
He said TR'd guilty for 2 posts looking like town without saying what about them looks town.
His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.
His posts seems rather detached and passive like he doesn't want to create waves. Several of which are about wording and general things like that that don't require sorting people.

Good job identifying my playstyle.

Y'all are too much.

What a fun game. People scumread and vote me for townreading gamma and then a dude comes in and scumreads me for scumreading gamma.

Feels like a scum reaction.
Taking a few minutes to do some re-reading.

now that more pressure is growing on BuJaber, he awkwardly points to a scumread on Dave (also moved off of the verydark probably-mislynch wagon to vanity vote him), and dave starts to bite back - but never votes BuJaber and is content to leave his vote on Mylo instead.

BuJaber read is very split,

scumreads seem reachy but reactions could be frustrated town

.

last ditch effort attempt to save his buddy? excuse to not vote his partner?

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: davesaz

I'd still happily go back to kmd today but curious who wants to join this. kmd I'll give you some townpoints if you do!

also on this:

Can you be more specific on why Mylo looks town to you? Is it really just pre flop associative and you're assuming he's town because you've decided I'm scum or is there something in his play I'm missing?

I mean I agree he's low content, but I haven't had a problem with any of the actual reads/content that he has put into the game
and posts like 947 and 949 make me think the low content playstyle is genuine, he's not trying to appease his wagon or adapt to be more survivalist.

and it's not just that he's your cw, even in a vacuum I don't like the way other people are treating his slot. Most of the people I see as town aren't interested in lynching him and most of the people I don't see as town look like they're angling for the lynch on him. Also worth noting a couple of the Mylo pushers (kmd, AgentBrassherald) were also somewhat convinced about verydark being scum for similarly weak reasons on D1

[GuiltyLion]

I'm pushing an agenda of lynching scum

Kmd reasoning is incredibly shallow, dave reasoning is based on a whole lot of begging the question, and he has verydark low in his reads for ?? reason.

1) Just because I didn't explicitly lay out the kmd reasoning does not mean it's shallow. Do you want me to spell out a PbP for you? What do you think of the fact that not many people actually sheeped me onto Kmd?
2) I'm mostly just sheeping GC on dave. Why aren't you engaging with GC's case in 966 if it's "begging the question"?
3) verydark is just not doing a lot and making weird votes so he's not super town

again, me being anyone's top possible scumread is fairly absurd, frankly. to think that I am scum means I decided to death tunnel one of my partners on D1 over literally any other available mislynch. I didn't just casually vote BuJaber as a distance and get stuck there, I put my foot on the gas for that lynch multiple times. Against a mason setup that's extremely suboptimal play

[GuiltyLion]

Smart you're really confbiasing here

It's way more viable against masons than against practically anything else. Masons' power doesn't increase as scum die and they provide a great explanation for why someone who hard pushed scum didn't die.

In addition to that, BuJaber was basically the best candidate for a hard bus. Not only does he have content that is very unlikely to take him to LYLO, but he was going to have a baby soon and he knew he would be able to commit even less on further days.

masons power strictly increases with each day that they don't have to claim and they don't get NK'd. Instead of pushing my scumbuddy on D1 at the very least I'd be trying to get a few townies to claim to narrow the mason-pool.

Also, it's actually great that you brought up BuJaber being a father thing because guess what?

I learned that BuJaber was a father publicly in another game

(also, in which I mislynched a townie in LYLO - giving scum!BuJaber the win - explicitly because I thought BuJaber's play in that game was different than his play here)

I present to you: Double Investigation Mafia

check out these posts:

Don't think it's been 24 hours since my VLA ended but I'm here. Sorry for the sudden absence - I just became a father!!

also congrats on becoming a father! that's awesome

these posts were made

after BuJaber was already lynched in this game

so to imply that I bussed him ahead of time because I knew he was already going to be a father is to imply that we faked this interaction in another completed game for the purpose of advancing our win-con in this one. huge implausible reach.

[GuiltyLion]

I'm pushing an agenda of lynching scum

Kmd reasoning is incredibly shallow, dave reasoning is based on a whole lot of begging the question, and he has verydark low in his reads for ?? reason.

1) Just because I didn't explicitly lay out the kmd reasoning does not mean it's shallow. Do you want me to spell out a PbP for you? What do you think of the fact that not many people actually sheeped me onto Kmd?

Do you have a PbP ready? If so, then you were misleading about why you held that read, since you implied it was based on lack of BuJaber associatives...

2) I'm mostly just sheeping GC on dave. Why aren't you engaging with GC's case in 966 if it's "begging the question"?

I don't take issue with that post; I take issue with 1002. Which is entirely predicated on explaining dave's actions from the point of view of him being scum. Hence begging the question.

3) verydark is just not doing a lot and making weird votes so he's not super town

He did enough day 1, and weird votes are town indicative more often than not. I thought his self-vote was very frustrated townie; why do you disagree?

1) no, I don't have a PbP ready, I'm lazy, overgamed, and wanted to see if other people would sheep me or make the case themselves. Posts like Gamma's 740 and 749 give me a better townread on Gamma.

2) Yeah, the point of 1002 was just saying "hey you know I can see dave's play fitting as scum partners with BuJaber". I don't disagree, it is entirely predicated on explaining his actions from the point of view of him being scum. I see it as supplemental evidence to 966 which is the meat of the real case against dave, a case that I still don't really see you engaging with

3) I did see it as frustrated townie, hence why I unvoted him and landed on BuJaber instead. However my town credit does not last forever, his awkward hammer and half-assed attempt to push me sunk him a fair amount in my reads. while I still have him as PoE town-ish he's not nearly a top tier townread

[GuiltyLion]

In the context of mafia, using that phrase and quoting your post was prodding you to explain the problems with 875, which I think are apparent and which kmd and myself have identified.

is the kmd bit just referring to 876 or did I miss something else?

[GuiltyLion]

1002. Gives possible reasons why dave might do certain things as scum with Bu but doesn't really analyze the likelihood of him doing those things as scum versus as town.

Like I could easily read someone's ISO, pick some posts, and say why they would make those posts if they were scum with Bu, but that doesn't prove anything.

I've already said that 1002 was mostly meant as a supplement to 966. and I keep prompting you to engage with 966 which IMO is the best case one could make for davescum, and you keep ignoring it. Why? Why not vote dave?

and for someone considering my arguments "holistically" you're sure ignoring all my repeated quality arguments about BuJaber scum on D1 and ignoring the point that I have no real motive to play D1 that way, and creating bizarre reaches (GL knew BuJaber was gonna be absent due to impeding fatherhood) to continue to defend that angle

[GuiltyLion]

KMD if you're town come in here and vote scum dave and let's go for 2/2 scum lynches so Smart can continue to scumread me on D3 despite me power wagoning two scum

MathDino you should also hop on dave at this point

[GuiltyLion]

Like I could easily read someone's ISO, pick some posts, and say why they would make those posts if they were scum with Bu, but that doesn't prove anything.

also

as an exercise

you should do this with my ISO

otherwise this claim is bunk

[GuiltyLion]

what's the reasoning on dave?

966

[GuiltyLion]

ok I think there's definitely a scum in Gamma/brassherald, but I don't feel like I have a good opinion yet on who it is. gut/previous reads would point me at brass but I'm willing to sheep Mathdino and dave being a mason fucks with my game state view a lot

Here are a bunch of relevant posts:

Spoiler: Bujaber/Gamma/brass three-way interactions

I don't recall you expanding on your Gamma read, Bu. What are those good questions he's been asking?

I notice that one of the reasons you're scum reading Dave is because of his read on Mylo? Yet you have a scum lean on Mylo?

I don't recall you expanding on your Gamma read, Bu. What are those good questions he's been asking?

I notice that one of the reasons you're scum reading Dave is because of his read on Mylo? Yet you have a scum lean on Mylo?

Mhm, how about you reach your own conclusions on me before questioning those of others?

^including this because the Gamma jump in here was unnecessary and awkward

LUV - I remembered him having more questions. A lot of his good posts aren't questions. More accurate to call them investigative. He is questioning logic and statements others have made to a point where it reads like an interrogation. He's wrong about sando imo but this kind of questionong and dragging out an argument to force the other player to explain more clearly leads to better reads for everyone in the game. Typically anyway. And while there elements of playstyle here (not everyone plays like that) I feel like scum!gamma would have to stop sooner in fear of locktowning his 'target' for everyone else or exposing his partner if he's distancing for show.

Do you see a reason to suspect gamma?

Agent Sparkles is getting replaced.

...
Me no likey

You got a brassherald out of it, though.

Anyway, hello folks, I'll do a catch up later on. I read the ISOs on verydark and BuJaber, though since they are the leading wagons, and I think Sparkles was right with his last vote, right before that verydark started sounding town, then Sparkles never followed it up.

BuJaber, on the other hand, does his big posts without really saying all that much. Plus, he's trying to make this weird sort of push on Gamma who I find to generally be a mislynch target from the beginning.

VOTE: BuJaber

Gamma's likely town by the way. I also ISOd him. Full catch up later.

Plus, he's trying to make this weird sort of push on Gamma who I find to generally be a mislynch target from the beginning.

Erm
What?

Y'all are too much.

What a fun game. People scumread and vote me for townreading gamma and then a dude comes in and scumreads me for scumreading gamma.

You're simultaneously townleaning him and throwing shade at him from what I can tell. It's weird and I can't put it to words as well as I would hope to. Like 547 it's weird that you are asking that about someone you are townreading.

Plus, you said yourself, you usually have alot more scumreads than you do. Seems to me like you aren't trying to sort out your null reads so much as avoid sorting people. Scum move.

@brass - why is it weird to ask someone who is asking me to explain my townread if he is scumreading said townread? I'm trying to determine motives behind his asking.

@brass - why is it weird to ask someone who is asking me to explain my townread if he is scumreading said townread? I'm trying to determine motives behind his asking.

Oh, then I misread since I was just ISOing... I gotta get the time to actually sit and read the thread.

For now, just to make sure I have time tonight.

UNVOTE:

I'll come back, read and curse after I'm not at work putting together a huge motion.

I think Gamma is hard to read in general, which Math mentioned, but I think this is town Gamma, gut read. He seems to be more detached as scum, and not to care as much, here, seems like he cares. This read, because of the nature of me reading Gamma in general, though, is subject to change.
BuJaber wagon is good. He's superficial, not providing anything in terms of content. I want back on the wagon.

VOTE: BuJaber

I actually think brass looks better here for the most part - not sure scum would do the unvote-hop-back-on thing w/ the BuJaber wagon over the span of a few hours unless they were genuinely struggling with the decision whether to bus or not. And BuJaber's Gamma townread was always weird - after Gamma's posting got better and BuJaber's continued to scum it up I kinda assumed it was a lazy townread on town but perhaps he was trying to bullshit a townread on his partner?

Also BuJaber put both me and AgentBrass as "town" whereas Gamma was just a "townlean" - FMPOV he probably felt more comfortable hard townreading actual town and wanted to put slightly more distance between him and a partner.

[GuiltyLion]

who's the third it if it's gamma?

[GuiltyLion]

well it's not GL/Mylo so I want to see if scum!Gamma makes the most sense especially in contrast to scum!brass

[GuiltyLion]

after GC's 966 and my sheeping it:

I could be convinced to vote dave
kinda not engaged rn

then prior to voting:

what's the reasoning on dave?

this progression is bad too but does scum flagrantly not read the game like this?

[GuiltyLion]

hmmm is it Mylo/Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[GuiltyLion]

Mylo what's your read on the brass slot, I don't see any talk about him at all in your ISO

[GuiltyLion]

I'm fairly confident we hit at least one scum if we do Gamma->Mylo

if the scum is Mylo then we can lynch me after that if we want but it's probably brass in that world I think

[GuiltyLion]

actually brass/mylo makes no sense because brass has been pushing him all day

p-edit lol yeah no just noticed that

[GuiltyLion]

Mylo what's your read on the brass slot, I don't see any talk about him at all in your ISO

I'm suspicious of him. He voted me when it was popular, swapped to dave because my wagon had fizzled out despite three people on it and got a claim out of dave before immediately returning back to me.

yeah but why haven't you been talking about this earlier?

[GuiltyLion]

feeling 1 and only 1 scum in {gamma, mylo}

and then 2nd scum in {GL, brass, GC}?

does that even work?

I still kinda think gamma/mylo is possible. mylo should be lynched at some point even on a scum!gamma flip

[GuiltyLion]

not really? Everyone suspecting you so if you're town the scum probably want you as a fallback option, and if you're scum that means whoever your buddy is want to lynch someone else over you and is probably going to continue that trend.

considering you are currently the Mylo cw, this analysis - while correct - feels oddly detached from the game. Like if you're town that'd basically make Mylo lock scum

[GuiltyLion]

I'm coming to about here now

{davesaz}
{Dino, Smart, Ank}
{kmd, GC}
{brass, verydark}
{Gamma, Mylo}

this feels right-ish. doubt there's a scum above the brass/verydark tier

[GuiltyLion]

I'm not opposed yet but I still need to analyze everyone's actual read on you

if Mylo is town then who is scum

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Mylo

I'd rather start here tbh. I still think Gamma's vote put a lot more momentum towards BuJaber lynch than Mylo's awkward L-1

[GuiltyLion]

actually let's just unvote altogether
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

Vote Count 1.11

Votee	Voters
BuJaber (5)	GuiltyLion (177), Mathdino (360), popsofctown (415), Gamma Emerald (422), brassherald (586)
verydark (2)	Kmd4390 (22), BuJaber (479)
Myloninja13 (1)	davesaz (266)
popsofctown (1)	Lil Uzi Vert (499)

Not voting:

Kop, Myloninja13, Something_Smart, verydark

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Fixed.

this VC is my main problem with a brass/Gamma team - I don't feel it's likely that both scum went for the bus at this point. I should probably reread for context but my gut reaction is it's not two scum piling on BuJaber wagon here

[GuiltyLion]

the other noteworthy thing is that Gamma/Mylo have been voting together on two relatively major wagons today

Vote Count 2.7

Votee	Voters
Myloninja13 (4)	Kmd4390 (863), brassherald (914), Mathdino (942), davesaz (948)
Kmd4390 (3)	GuiltyLion (734), Gamma Emerald (789), Myloninja13 (882)
davesaz (1)	Green Crayons (965)

Not voting:

Ankamius, Something_Smart, verydark

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch. The deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-15 17:15:00).

Fixed outdated naming convention.

Green Crayons (965), GuiltyLion (1004),

Gamma Emerald (1110)

, Brass (1113),

Mylo (1114)

I dunno if that makes them more or less likely to be a team - Mylo's vote kinda makes sense on both wagons since he is the main alternative - but I definitely think at least one is scum

and yeah GC is making me think the Gamma read on Mylo is worse than I first thought

[GuiltyLion]

Nah actually you know I thought more about Gamma's initial Mylo read and I don't really see that as scummy

I agree it's not always a good way to sort people as GC pointed out but I have a habit of thinking like that myself all the time

the weirder thing for me here is that I feel like town!Gamma should be much more convinced of scum!Mylo but I also don't know that scum!Gamma would go so far as to fake uncertainty about Mylo here

I'm starting to think I'd much rather lynch Mylo today

[GuiltyLion]

Please give me a chance tomorrow guys, I'll try and actually put effort in!

I could argue against my lynch here, but at the very least we know Gamma is confirmed here so you can probably lynch me now.

We'll go into day 3 with at least one confirmed townie, and you'll avoid the whole "Scum in Gamma/Mylo" thing.

man but neither of these wagons feels all that great anymore?

I kinda want to lynch verydark most of all, but I do agree lynching off-dave is a bad idea for right now

[GuiltyLion]

ugh quote bug. I was thinking about Mylo's progression there but I decided it kinda makes sense from a townie perspective who goes from thinking Gamma was hammered to legit thinking Gamma is conftown

[GuiltyLion]

I'm flip flopping all over the place every time I reread the whole interaction of the last two pages

[GuiltyLion]

am I giving GC too much towncred? Is GC/verydark a thing?

[GuiltyLion]

nah you know what

I definitely think Mylo is scummier than Gamma and while he is making some townie-ish sounding posts it's not enough to want to rule out him being scum like I want to do with Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

UNVOTE:
I'm actually going to lock you as town for a bit because your reactions after hammer were pretty alright and I want to see what I end up thinking
also I definitely believe KMD is town, I don't think scum!her thinks to fakehammer like that

I don't though
your reaction feels kinda genuine

basically I think this is an angle that scum!Gamma wouldn't think of taking because it doesn't really gain anything for him and it's counterintuitive play as scum. The odds are still very good that Gamma gets lynched today or D3 and so if I'm scum!Gamma I'm probably just pushing hard for a town!Mylo mislynch first and foremost. I doubt he consciously decides to go for a "fake uncertainty for towncred" play, I feel like it's far more likely that town!Gamma is genuinely unsure about Mylo here

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma, why are you unvoting me now? Everyone wants me lynched now that you're confirmed, I may as well get it over with.

VOTE: Mylo

whereas this move is more easy for me to conceive of as a ploy for towncred

What would you expect me as scum to say?

and if Mylo genuinely thinks Gamma is conftown - the only thing making me doubt scum!Mylo because it provides a logical narrative for his posts - then it doesn't really make sense to ask this question

Mylo

why did you ask this question?

I think I'm waffling because Mylo's posts make sense from "perspective of a player who thought that Gamma had a locktown reaction to the hammer", but when I think about it more deeply I don't really see that as AI. scum!Mylo just as easily might have thought town!Gamma's reaction was obviously town.

[GuiltyLion]

Also, everyone claiming one of Gamma and I are scum just got put down like two slots in my reads list.

I also feel like town should/would have been more specific here than just throwing out the vague form of the statement

Like if I'm town and I think this, I go back and I reread and see who specifically was saying that, instead of casting blanket shade. He's still previously claimed strong townreads on myself and GC, and I think we were the main people pushing that opinion (me especially).

so,

intent to hammer Mylo

. Gonna wait for VC and everyone to check in - but I think he's at L-1. Please no hammers on Gamma I think that's the Wrong Lynch today

[GuiltyLion]

I told you all Gamma was a Wrong Lynch

I need to find the town in {GC, Mylo, brass} and that's proving fairly difficult. I agree that brass' interactions around BuJaber were decent but he feels stiff and careful in a lot of his posts/votes. like 1401 feels like a really careful post

[GuiltyLion]

And I'll be honest, I'm definitely way too survivalistic

Mylo if this is true, then why did you self-vote to put yourself close to lynch range yesterday?

[GuiltyLion]

Vote Count 2.14

Votee	Voters
Myloninja13 (5)	davesaz (948), brassherald (1116), Something_Smart (1144), Myloninja13 (1275), Kmd4390 (1295)
Gamma Emerald (3)	Ankamius (1017), Mathdino (1153), Green Crayons (1231)
brassherald (1)	verydark (1121)

Not voting:

Gamma Emerald, GuiltyLion

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch. The deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-15 17:15:00).

Vote Count 2.Final

Votee	Voters
Gamma Emerald (6)	Ankamius (1017), Mathdino (1153), Green Crayons (1231), Myloninja13 (1316), brassherald (1323), Kmd4390 (1342)
brassherald (2)	verydark (1121), Gamma Emerald (1298)
Myloninja13 (1)	davesaz (948)

Not voting:

GuiltyLion, Something_Smart

With 11 players alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch. Gamma Emerald has been hammered.

there's at least one town, yes

[GuiltyLion]

ugh quote bug. I'm trying to think about the wagon switchers and whether that means anything

[GuiltyLion]

yeah but then you went and voted Gamma anyway and it's annoying that you did that - you flip flopped on "confirmed town" very quickly

and the general problem I'm having is that I can believe that you thought his reaction to the fake hammer was extremely town but I can believe that you thought that as either alignment

[GuiltyLion]

like why would you give up instead of pushing on me or GC?

[GuiltyLion]

Gamma, why are you unvoting me now? Everyone wants me lynched now that you're confirmed, I may as well get it over with.

VOTE: Mylo

whereas this move is more easy for me to conceive of as a ploy for towncred

What would you expect me as scum to say?

and if Mylo genuinely thinks Gamma is conftown - the only thing making me doubt scum!Mylo because it provides a logical narrative for his posts - then it doesn't really make sense to ask this question

Mylo

why did you ask this question?

I think I'm waffling because Mylo's posts make sense from "perspective of a player who thought that Gamma had a locktown reaction to the hammer", but when I think about it more deeply I don't really see that as AI. scum!Mylo just as easily might have thought town!Gamma's reaction was obviously town.

also did you ever respond to this?

[GuiltyLion]

KMD if you think scum caused the Gamma mislynch then I should not be first in your lynch order

[GuiltyLion]

I see enough differences to give leeway to him

brass I'd like you to elaborate on these

not because I'm scumreading MathDino but because I want to see you show your work

[GuiltyLion]

hm okay yeah I feel satisfied with that brass response

[GuiltyLion]

I'm fine with lynching Mylo at this point. What else do we need to do today? Anyone who is scumreading me have anything they could talk to me about that would quell their paranoia, or would that be a useless exercise

[GuiltyLion]

no, should I

and should we lynch GC instead?

[GuiltyLion]

Hey guys I am V/LA this weekend for Coachella, I am gonna try to post in the mornings though and I have some time bumming around waiting for campgrounds to open tonight

Reading up

[GuiltyLion]

I'm fine with lynching Mylo at this point. What else do we need to do today? Anyone who is scumreading me have anything they could talk to me about that would quell their paranoia, or would that be a useless exercise

You have any response to Math's reason why you're a solid scum candidate?

If you've already responded to those points, I'll can just take links.

Basically I think the argument for me being scum is entirely rooted in paranoia of me being a crafty scum player. It's true that my actions make a lot of sense in a GL/verydark/bujaber world, but thats just one possible world of all worlds in which I'm town in most of them. So I don't think it's as likely as people are thinking it is that I orchestrated a D1 bus to save my other partner. I think I'm also a fallback scumread for people whenever Mylo makes a townieish sounding post, but I think my efforts to gamesolve are far more present in my ISO than his - he defends himself when he's under fire and then disappears otherwise.

Also, remember that I didn't immediately jump off of vd to go to Bujaber, I went to MathDino first and tried to wrestle with him. If I were scum I would have continued to play that up and try to wrestle control of the gamestate from him, not cede it to him as a constant townread throughout.

Also, I don't believe I've ever death tunneled a buddy as scum on D1. When I get to a computer on Monday I can link numerous scum PTs where I say I'm generally against bussing. And again, unless my plan all along was to save verydark, any idea of me being scum requires a good justification for why I tunneled my partner repeatedly over the entirety of the d1 phase and never backed down from it, even whenever there were opportunities for the wagon to stall or to move to a different lynch, especially at deadline

[GuiltyLion]

I also feel like scum is townreading me because they're scared of my green flip today. Both verydark and Mylo have felt WK-y of me at times - with Mylo it's slightly worse because I've been soft pushing him since yesterDay and I also was one of the people who said "scum in Gamma/Mylo" which he argued was scummy after Gamma reacted to the game hammer. I feel like town!Mylo would be POEing himself down to scumreading me by this point much like I am with his slot.

Vd's push on MathDino is so out of context with the rest of thread vibe that I feel like it's town - don't see any scum utility in that push rn unless either he's running out of plausible scumreads or he wants to push Math after I'm lynched. But more likely just town paranoia.

I feel like it's GC/Mylo

[GuiltyLion]

Meh, I mean this is always WIFOM coming from me but I still think I would have rather pushed elsewhere D1 and try to survive any scumreads due to meta and/or sketchy interactions with Bujaber more than I'd want to suffer the loss of utility of losing a scumbuddy on D1. And if I were bussing I had tons of opportunities to sit back and hope the wagon goes elsewhere instead of repeatedly prompting people to reconsider or vote Buj

Also again I publicly learned of Bujaber' s impending fatherhood in Double Investigation, so the assumption that I'd automatically consider him to be a liability/weak partner is also missing real evidence

[GuiltyLion]

Also just reread my other post and "reacted to the game hammer" should be "reacted to the fake hammer". Autocorrect got me again

[GuiltyLion]

if Mylo flips down it's GC and either verydark or one of kmd/smart? I agree it's a shitty situation then which is kinda why I feel like he should be scum

I'd rather lynch GC I think for this reason too. But if GC flips town I'm sure we'll still have more of the "Mylo is a scum dedicated mislynch" narrative

[GuiltyLion]

Designated, not dedicated. Phoneposting is hard

Also you all gotta see Soulwax live sometime if ya can

[GuiltyLion]

hi I am back home and ready to get my teeth more firmly back into this game now - I have work today but I'll also try to be on site throughout the day and more engaged, definitely around tonight

couple things I am going to respond to really quickly:

I also feel like scum is townreading me because they're scared of my green flip today.

I'm curious, do you have any ideas for what the next step would be if you flipped? Part of the reason I suspected Mylo was the designated mislynch today is because it clicks with the game state pretty well, so it's entirely plausible that this is true.

I think GC would be the best lynch if I were flipped today, especially since he's now my main counterwagon. I also agree massclaim is a good idea at that point - we've been assuming all off dave-wagon people could be the masons but we should know definitively who is potential scum within that group to better speculate about teams/associatives

[GuiltyLion]

I just don't like this GL wagon. I don't know much about him as a player (I've only seen one game of his) but I don't like this wagon. And the problem is that two of my town reads are on it, so it's likely it's not a scum driven wagon.

Although... I am pretty much town leaning on everyone here so...

Forgive me if I've asked this before (I have a feeling like I have), but why is SS a confirmed town slot? We're obviously not lynching him, he wasn't on the dave wagon and he has had overall solid play but why is he never even discussed as a scum option?

these kind of strike me as townie posts

GC can you clarify what your problem is with them? You're asking Mylo why he made them, but I don't see why he would make them as scum either

also when I made the point about having "too many townreads as scum", I wasn't saying BuJaber was scummy for doing that, I was just saying it was not a good reason to townread BuJaber. So similarly here I don't think it's necessarily scummy that Mylo is saying that

[GuiltyLion]

his scumgame appears to have direction, he has an agenda, he's making waves, has some damn respect for himself

also I did briefly look over that Mylo game he linked and agree it felt like he was trying harder as scum in that game

I don't want to totally clear him on it because 1 game sample and people try different things, but I do agree it's a point in favor of him being town

[GuiltyLion]

gah

I am again having doubts about both GC and Mylo

[GuiltyLion]

I wish I did, but not really other than some of his votes feeling opportunistic.

further, I agree with this and I'm wondering if brass is a better lynch than GC or Mylo. I know some have decided his interactions with BuJaber are unlikely to be a bus, and I occasionally feel this way myself, but everything else he's done this game is fairly safe and scummy. And I don't really see his vote on BuJaber as impossible to be a bus - he entered the game with it, then unvoted, then decided he "wanted back on" and then didn't really push much after that.

He was on the Mylo wagon several times but hasn't shown any interest in pushing it today. And a number of his votes have been all been careful and opportunistic, and often justified by the gamestate rather than the player's play

Recent posts by Green Crayon are pretty okay. Also, Math, in regards to your list of lynches, I really dislike lining up all the lynches beforehand in any order. We need to be able to adjust to new information. I will not be following some preset list of lynches for you.

I'm also a bit curious as to why Mylo came in, said he talks more day 2 and says nothing else other than go with the idea that never gets him hanged. My vote looks good there while I drink my coffee this morning.

VOTE: Mylo

The "my vote looks good there while I drink my coffee this morning" feels awkward and over-explainy

VOTE: davesaz

The case here seems good, and the Mylo wagon is totally stalled.

GC already pointed out that the "Mylo wagon" wasn't really stalled, just slow developing. It was still the leading wagon.

Well, with a vote count, I'm willing to switch over. That fake town tell is something I have only seem scum do.

VOTE: Gamma L-1 for reals.

The "fake town tell" was enough to L-1 his prior townread Gamma, despite the fact that other players (both Mylo and myself) had said it looked like a town reaction?

Okay, looking at Math's scum game, I'm willing to say this is closer to a town play for him than a scum play. He is good as scum as well, but I see enough differences to give leeway to him. Also, I'm not sure that scum would commit so fully to continually telling us how many mislynches we have. That just feels more towny than anything else. I guess for now I am willing to follow him while his reads at least partially align with mine anyway. I don't think GC is scum, I believe I explained that Day 2, so, a Mylo lynch today for me if I'm following Dino's lynch pool.

VOTE: Mylo

I called this out earlier:

I agree that brass' interactions around BuJaber were decent but he feels stiff and careful in a lot of his posts/votes. like 1401 feels like a really careful post

This game is stagnant. I want to end the day because right now we are going nowhere to that end

VOTE: GuiltyLion

^justifying his vote with the game being "stagnant" rather than me being likely scum

[GuiltyLion]

also, I just completed a newbie game that brass was in and town, and I was scum. He was townreading me in that game, but my play in that game was a bit more detached and logical and cautious than it is in this game. I always play newbies a bit more carefully/logically and friendly, I'm not trying to say I'm town by self-meta, but I think brass could have jumped on inconsistencies between my play in that game and my play here if he were trying to sort me. (I was actually kinda worried that I might have to change up my play in the Newbie to better match my play here)

VOTE: brassherald

I know this is a bit of a flip from where I was at earlier, but given the entirety of GC's play today I do get the sense that he's involved and trying to sort, especially his activity towards deadline. brass is coasting

[GuiltyLion]

I'll be in and out today, won't let the game go to a no lynch. If there's no brass traction I'll vote GC but I'm not feeling that great about it

[GuiltyLion]

wait a second did you just claim scum by meta though

meta reading me is an exercise in futility from that same finished game:

I have played one other game with Guilty and I can honestly not see a difference between town and scum Guilty.

[GuiltyLion]

Guilty or Kmd, is there a link between all the posts you're referencing that indicates an ulterior motive?

nah I wouldn't say I'm making a case for an ulterior motive so much as it just feels like he's jumping on convenient wagons and resorting to more safe/comfortable justifications like the gamestate rather than expressing genuine beliefs about the player being scum. His votes ping me as the kind you make when you're trying to make sure it sounds decent but you don't really have any townie conviction behind wanting to lynch the player.

[GuiltyLion]

like brass has voted Mylo multiple times yet I never feel like he's actually wanted to see him flipped

[GuiltyLion]

it's possible GL just poe'd himself out of possible scum from his POV

I mean that can happen to me as town or scum, right

if I were scum why wouldn't I just go in on Mylo or GC? would I have the foresight/ability/incentive to fake this uncertainty?

[GuiltyLion]

Regarding Mylo, he's the slot this game where you get a choice between either using a lynch getting rid of him or facing the same question the next day. It's never really an exciting vote, but it's difficult to get a good grasp on the game since he's a big question mark right in the middle of it. I'm not really surprised he's deciding to sheep Math here over wanting to deal with that.

sure, but brass hasn't even really tried to convince anyone of another being scum since his early GC push at the start of D2

[GuiltyLion]

brass why am I scum? Who's my partner?

[GuiltyLion]

like you don't need to write paragraphs about this just explain where your head is at more than "I'd rather lynch GL over GC"

[GuiltyLion]

it's possible GL just poe'd himself out of possible scum from his POV

I mean that can happen to me as town or scum, right

if I were scum why wouldn't I just go in on Mylo or GC? would I have the foresight/ability/incentive to fake this uncertainty?

uhhh that's far more likely to come from scum because there's less scum to hunt from scum's POV

I tried to scumhunt both Mylo and GC today and wasn't really feeling good about either

[GuiltyLion]

honestly I'd almost rather be lynched today if you all promise to seriously reconsider brass and actually push him tomorrow

really don't want to deal with a GC townflip and more suspicion on me again tomorrow, especially when Kmd/Smart still have me as a desired lynch choice

[GuiltyLion]

That leave you, and your partner Mylo. I have been townhunting this game, and, if my reads are off I will take the full blame for being wrong, but I think I found the townies.

so which of those townies is Not Town once I flip town?

[GuiltyLion]

humor me

[GuiltyLion]

also how do my interactions with Mylo make sense when I intended to Hammer him yesterday at deadline and said explicitly not to lynch Gamma instead

[GuiltyLion]

yeah except people unvoted before I came back to hammer

you're stretching now

this is gonna look bad after I'm lynched today

[GuiltyLion]

like LOL at the idea that I could have followed through, Math literally demanded a Gamma lynch and drove it while I was away

[GuiltyLion]

when I'm lynched, flip brass->verydark->GC on a brass scumflip

brass->GC->verydark on a brass townflip

I feel pretty good about this. Mylo if the game's not over yet, or consider Smart

MathDino I feel like GC is genuinely trying to sort the game though. I get none of that from brass

[GuiltyLion]

and I feel like GC genuinely believes in the Mylo scumread

[GuiltyLion]

would've been real nice if y'all didn't get in a frenzy and lynch my locktownread Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

The first unvote came almost 2 hours later.

you want me to declare intent so everyone can react to it, then hammer within the next 2 hours?

[GuiltyLion]

brass, GL isn't scum with mylo, next

he's only arguing this because he's afraid to scumread anyone else at this point, and he doesn't want to commit to a plan yet for tomorrow after my flip. He knows it's impossible and makes no sense

[GuiltyLion]

if we agree there's at least one scum in {GC, GL, brass, Mylo}, it's just a matter of who you all feel the most comfortable of betting the game on being town

I guess for me right now that's Mylo?

[GuiltyLion]

well I'd pick myself but people in the "most likely masons/town" bloc don't seem convinced by that so I'm trying to work with a realistic compromise here

[GuiltyLion]

when I'm lynched, flip brass->verydark->GC on a brass scumflip

brass->GC->verydark on a brass townflip

So you think VD is scum, regardless of whether brass or GC is scum?

sorta yeah - he really hasn't done anything to make waves or get involved this game. only thing holding me back from a full on scumread is that I sorta doubt we had dueling wagons on scum D1 when it was vd/BuJ and also the Math push still doesn't make a lot of sense from a scum perspective to me

[GuiltyLion]

what do you all think of brass' unvote? is that AI?

he seems legitimately pissed but I feel like town or scum could get pissed there.

part of me wants to think that he would see a GC mislynch as better for the gamestate than a GL mislynch and I'm having a hard time coming up with a town motive for backing off my wagon there but it's also kind of a bold move as scum, especially this close to deadline?

I can also switch to GC if needed but would still rather lynch brass

[GuiltyLion]

if we agree there's at least one scum in {GC, GL, brass, Mylo}, it's just a matter of who you all feel the most comfortable of betting the game on being town

I guess for me right now that's Mylo?

Unclear how you're putting mylo at confirmed town over me. Like, taking the totality of your posts about both players, I don't see how you're coming to that legitimately.

yeah idk either - I think my thinking there was if brass is town then I'm slightly more sure of you being scum than Mylo - like I think it's a more likely game-losing state on brass->GL->Mylo mislynches than brass->GL->GC mislynches. But I also do think in a vacuum he's been scummier than you have

also again, I don't really bus, I can point to multiple scum PTs where I say this

and Math my progression on dave is basically because I was townreading GC and I thought he made a really solid dave case. I don't think I ever had him as locktown, especially after the BuJaber scumflip D1

[GuiltyLion]

I really didn't think the case was bad - dave's push on Mylo was always garbage. and at the time dave was off the BuJaber wagon which is where I was trying to hunt for scum

[GuiltyLion]

actually most of all I think we should lynch verydark before we get to a LYLO lynch on GC or Mylo

p-edit because I don't assume both scum bussed, especially since the first 4/5 BuJ voters all were solidly town

[GuiltyLion]

Vote Count 1.Final

Votee	Voters
BuJaber (7)	GuiltyLion (177), Mathdino (360), popsofctown (415), Gamma Emerald (422), brassherald (586), Myloninja13 (693), verydark (714)
verydark (2)	Kmd4390 (22), BuJaber (479)
brassherald (1)	Something_Smart (618)
Myloninja13 (1)	davesaz (266)
popsofctown (1)	Lil Uzi Vert (499)

Not voting:

Green Crayons

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch. BuJaber has been hammered.

actually looking at this again with Gamma townflip + dave wagon in mind, I definitely think today's lynch should be in the tail end "reluctant bus" zone of this wagon, and that's basically Brass or Mylo

[GuiltyLion]

yeah that's fair

and I'm remembering I actually had some decent reasons to townread Sparkles

[GuiltyLion]

VOTE: Mylo

lol

I mean lynch me for "shitty progression" but I don't make shitty progressions as scum, I'm just trying to do due diligence about a mislynch on not-me today and what it means for the game state

[GuiltyLion]

gah

I am again having doubts about both GC and Mylo

it's possible GL just poe'd himself out of possible scum from his POV

I mean that can happen to me as town or scum, right

if I were scum why wouldn't I just go in on Mylo or GC? would I have the foresight/ability/incentive to fake this uncertainty?

[GuiltyLion]

basically I will always sour on players if I don't feel like they're continuously actively trying to game solve and I don't think anyone can argue that brass or verydark has done anything to gamesolve today on D3

[GuiltyLion]

his supertownread on GC seems almost unnatural

this too

idk, whenever I scumread anyone in the brass/GC/Mylo crew I'm never fully satisfied with it

I'm getting bad vibes about this game

[GuiltyLion]

Damn it, we have 12 hours left.

I guess a GL lynch would have information to it? At this point we just need a lynch.

VOTE: GL

I don't disagree that we need a lynch but the only information you get from my flip is that Smart/kmd/MathDino will no longer be paranoid and will have to look elsewhere

Please lynch in brass/mylo/Alisae tomorrow guys - I dunno which but there's absolutely scum on the tail end of the D1 BuJ wagon

[GuiltyLion]

and I may be at the point where I'm more comfortable betting the game on GC being town than Mylo

[GuiltyLion]

When we get the scumflip everyone needs to reread this day in particular and see who is possibly partnered with who because Mylo and GC were both leading wagons and relatively close to lynch at different times

[GuiltyLion]

Also worth rereading everyone who's just kind of PoEing me to be scum. Because I feel like there's no good answer to the "why does scum!GL play D1 and D3 the way he did", so the tactic instead is to just say "well I'm townreading everyone else and you're good at scum"

[GuiltyLion]

Yeah actually I say lynch Mylo after me if I'm lynched today. Math got it wrong on both Gamma and myself and he's the main person shielding Mylo from being lynched, he should lose that ability after going 0/2 on D2 and D3

[GuiltyLion]

you were literally going on about betting the entire game on mylo being town

I wasn't "going on" about it, I said it once with a question mark because I still wasn't very sure about it

this is embellishment

[GuiltyLion]

We can rule out brass/Mylo for brass's bloodlust for Mylo.

I'd be careful about this

like I said, there's no conviction in brass' Mylo scumread. He votes him whenever it's safe/popular, but has backed off twice (once for davesaz, once for me) whenever it starts actually looking like a Mylo lynch

and Mylo has voiced suspicions of brass but not pushed him much either

[GuiltyLion]

mylo is practically conftown by PoE and especially so from GL's POV

also I really don't follow you on this

I've had two main counter wagons: GC and Mylo

one of them is scum if not brass

I'm always gonna suspect the guy who's done nothing, self-voted to play the "lynch me I'm not an asset to town" card, flip flopped on whether Gamma was town, and barely put in work to try to drive content and sort the game over the guy who's been around and pushing things and calling out lots of novel points of discussion that I can vibe with and understand.

[GuiltyLion]

I was town

good luck everyone

don't lynch GC prior to lynching at least one of brass/Alisae

[GuiltyLion]

lol Alisae you're too late

[GuiltyLion]

also REMINDER THAT BRASS'S ARGUMENT FOR WHY I AM SCUM IS BOTH NONEXISTENT AND COMICALLY BAD

THERE WAS NO UNIVERSE WHERE I WAS PARTNERS WITH LYLO AND THIS IS LITERALLY BRASS ONLY POE SCUMTEAM

[GuiltyLion]

tomorrow should be 1v1 between Alisae/brass first and foremost

[GuiltyLion]

That leave you, and your partner Mylo. I have been townhunting this game, and, if my reads are off I will take the full blame for being wrong, but I think I found the townies.

so which of those townies is Not Town once I flip town?

I don't know, I don't think you are flipping town, though.

also how do my interactions with Mylo make sense when I intended to Hammer him yesterday at deadline and said explicitly not to lynch Gamma instead

I mean, anyone can intent to hammer a buddy and claim a town lynch would not be good, but you didn't hammer, intent means nothing if you don't follow through

like LOL at the idea that I could have followed through, Math literally demanded a Gamma lynch and drove it while I was away

The first unvote came almost 2 hours later.

I'm getting shit for calling a wagon stalled when it was stuck at the same amount of votes for over 100 posts, but for you, its fine to say that you "couldn't hammer" because you were away.

I'm also catching shit for being away for the weekend, like this is full double standard shit here.

[GuiltyLion]

wtf is with your hard GC townread

because lots and lots of things he's called out over the entirety of the game

shit like Kmd responding to MD, shit like dave discrediting Mylo's opinions, shit like there's no way for kmd to distinguish between GL-town and GL-scum

like maybe I'm getting buddied hard but the amount of actual thought and work that GC seems to be putting into solving the game is leaps and bounds above brass/Mylo and I'm always gonna want to townread the person that feels like they're here and present and engaged over the people coasting

there's little to no incentive for GC to put in as much effort as he has, basically - if he's scum he's extremely good at it

[GuiltyLion]

Vote Count 3.9

Votee	Voters
Green Crayons (3)	Ankamius (1465), Mathdino (1573), Myloninja13 (1597)
GuiltyLion (3)	Something_Smart (1471), Kmd4390 (1472), brassherald (1541)
Mathdino (1)	verydark (1513)
Myloninja13 (1)	Green Crayons (1548)

Not voting:

GuiltyLion

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch.

I kinda feel like this VC was more likely two mislynches than one scum one town. I was the main person going to bat for GC

[GuiltyLion]

also notable: brass just disappears after the hammer

[GuiltyLion]

yeah except that VC is composed of almost all town lol

yeah exactly so how does GC scum make sense there? no one bussing him? his partner being brass/Alisae? either way you sort out the brass/Alisae situation first

[GuiltyLion]

lol Math preemptively discredited that even before my flip

Mylo should have been the D2 lynch, Gamma should never have been lynched. Look at the Gamma wagon for scum as well

[GuiltyLion]

as has been his nonsense today with "okay mylo is the designated mislynch" followed by "okay fine lynch mylo after i die" followed now by "TOMORROW SHOULD BE A 1V1 BETWEEN BRASS/ALISAE"

why does scum me push nonsense like this

[GuiltyLion]

no i'm suspecting him because his progression on davesaz was shit-tier

again, GC's case on dave was an excellent case and I'd say it was dave's Mylo push that was shit-tier

[GuiltyLion]

Like if mylo is actually scum I think Dino is his partner who is like "fuck it let's go all in."

honestly I still really really really want to townread Math but the problems with scumreading Alisae/GC make me wonder this too. also the fact that he's trying to justify lynching me after I'm already lynched

[GuiltyLion]

and you've failed to gamesolve by demanding 2 mislynches over the obviously superior Mylo lynch

[GuiltyLion]

to the point where now even if Mylo is a mislynch he's a much more likely game losing mislynch rather than a "get this slot out of the way early" mislynch

like my game-solving efforts didn't conclude anything but they should have been obviously apparent throughout my ISO

[GuiltyLion]

no i'm suspecting him because his progression on davesaz was shit-tier

again, GC's case on dave was an excellent case and I'd say it was dave's Mylo push that was shit-tier

wow so you're saying mylo is town wow that's pretty huh

GC town mylo town

everyone is town gg

you can make a shitty case on scum dude

lol is Math legitimately scum?!?

[GuiltyLion]

dude I don't feel comfortable having final words that scum will sheep after I die if they're wrong

just

-revisit the Gamma lynch cause that was bad
-townies in {brass/Mylo/Alisae} need to step the fuck up and put in more work than anyone - not really Alisae's fault but that slot has a lot of catchup to do
-force people to lay out the case for their scumreads rather than PoE townread everyone

[GuiltyLion]

like revisit the votes on me from Math/Brass because both of those were "well I can't explain why he's scum but everyone else is town"

also it's garbage that Math is pushing on me for having too many fluctuating townreads when brass formulaically stuck to "Mylo/GL" all day

[GuiltyLion]

lynching mylo D2 would've led directly to a gamma lynch D3, there weren't any clearly scummier people among {GL, GC, brass}

I was pretty firmly gamma town after I thought about his end of D2 play

[GuiltyLion]

why are you arguing with lynched town

[GuiltyLion]

my case on you DID show inconsistency with your towngame given how much you talk about gamesolving/PoE

also quote this post for everyone cause I missed it

[GuiltyLion]

also brass GL/Mylo was not a "correct conclusion" because that scumteam never made any sense, especially given my intent to hammer Mylo at end of D2 over Gamma

[GuiltyLion]

and the correct way to PoE is arbitrarily townread players like Mylo/brass and lynch people who challenge you on that assumption?

[GuiltyLion]

yeah and you just lynched a guy who was doing shit and keep refusing to lynch someone who has done absolutely nothing

[GuiltyLion]

anyway Math if you're town I don't really fault you as much as this comes across, I was always going to be a mislynch when kmd/Smart couldn't get over scumreading me

[GuiltyLion]

scumLion never gets wagoned, he's not a god of scumplay but he's basically a god of scumplay

[GuiltyLion]

you've done more today to open up more possibilities than close off possibilities my dude

yeah because I don't feel like this game is as easy as you think it is

highly advise extreme caution for all lynches going forward

[GuiltyLion]

proper play as scum when you're lynched is not to keep arguing/dragging things out, it just spews people as town when they obviously don't know that you're scum