The Resistance #2 - 5P Game

[Mathdino]

ideal for the first mission is finding 2 players who won't sabotage even if they're scum

obviously best case scenario is finding 2 town

also helps because if spies are on the first mission people will inherently trust those 2 players more and inevitably get betrayed by them later

SO

optimal first mission is me (who can obvtown as town by gamesolving) and someone who, as a spy, would be afraid of 1v1ing me for the next 4 rounds

VOTE: Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox

sheep this

[Mathdino]

so for the record i don't actually think paradox is town

and his vote there super pinged me

that said the entire point was to come up with a group that wouldn't sabotage even as town so in that sense we succeeded

i'm not sure where to go from here. the 3rd mission is a gimme. outside of that, we have 3 chances to find the correct town out of 10 possibles.

[Mathdino]

my best guess right now is mathdino/irrelephant/iconeum

that said, one possible solution is purposefully trying to put both scum on the mission and watching for any communication (given no daytalk)

[Mathdino]

the mechanics of the IRL game are really just a formality

more fundamentally it's just "you need 3 players to agree to send a team on a mission", which is pretty similar to voting mechanics in mafia

the reason i don't use mission leader and simultaneous yes/no voting is because that makes it take an incredible amount of time for a forum game

and your question applies to the game of mafia in general

the point is to find town and find scum and vote for town

who's town

[Mathdino]

why the fuck do you guys think paradox is town

[Mathdino]

okay but if this mission fails with paradox on it then it's back to "DID ONE OF MATH/PARADOX PASS THE FIRST MISSION AND FRAME THE NEW GUY OR IS IT JUST THE NEW GUY"

i would personally gain more information with other people on it because i already believe paradox is scum

[Mathdino]

also you two apparently agree with each other while voting for a team that includes paradox/me, thus excluding the other one of you

like from your POVs the other one should be a scumread

it's a weird game lol

i very much think irrelephant is town right now pending more posting

[Mathdino]

The irony is you make me want to vote for me, icon and paradox but I don't think gut should determine this mission. That comes later when you need to decide who is lying when people inevitable start accusing each other of sabotaging.

this team has 2 scum on it

does anyone wanna try it lol

[Mathdino]

if anyone says anything about who passes or fails a mission then that's obviously a spyclaim

VOTE: Bujaber, Iconeum, Paradox

let's do it for the meme of 2 sabotages

that said, i'm wondering though
we get 3 shots at finding all 3 town this game
if we do this, even if we have 2 spies on the mission (betting the game on irrelephant/mathdino mutual townread), and even if they both sabotage, that gives us 2 chances to find the 1 town among 3

if we want to bet the game on irrelephant/mathdino town, we could just try all 3 of them on all the 3 person missions

thoughts?

[Mathdino]

if anyone says anything to imply that they would be the ones to pass/sabotage a mission so that their spy buddy knows what to do, we should treat that as a full on spyclaim

even things like "i'll pass this mission" or "if someone sabotages, it's probably [x]" or "i think [buddy] is going to pass this"

there's a lot of hidden ways to communicate in resistance

[Mathdino]

doing that produces a 66% winrate lol

hunting for 2 town produces something significantly lower

[Mathdino]

yeah no

if i'm to go with a team without me there's no way i'm putting irrelephant on

either me and elephant both or neither of us at all

[Mathdino]

not gonna get bogged down in theory here

trying to get 2 spies to sabotage does work with 5p, and can clear 2 town instantly

as scum i wouldn't lie about that unless it benefited me strategically to fake trying to put 2 spies on the mission (i.e. i'm scum with one of those 3)

so while me wanting those 3 is consistent with me being a spy in itself

my play is still town, as is the fact that proposing this helps solve the game FMPOV

now on the other hand i could just bet the game entirely on elephant being town

[Mathdino]

like, bujaber, i get what you're saying here, but you're also taking a naive/surface-level approach to the game

0th level (VI)

: vote for whoever!
paradox once voted for 3 person teams without him on them on marathon weekend and got crucified. he wasn't thinking.
this is obviously not me, you know i don't do shit like that lol

1st level (surface)

: i must go on all missions and people who don't put themselves on missions are scum!
this is the classic way to play.
this is also a setup/way of playing i would consider scumsided without F2F tells.

2nd level (crazy idea guys)

: what if we put both spies on the mission and try to fish for double sabotage or double pass?
used to think this was crazy
then did it IRL
it works if and only if the spies have no clear hints to each other, which unfortunately they often do

anyway point is you're seeing me as a spy under 1st level play/thinking

i guess what i'm trying to say is

i'm playin fuckin 4D chess here

[Mathdino]

you can disagree, that's fine
if you end up voting for a team that you're on that you think is all town (due to scumreading me)
and i happen to think both spies are on it, i'll auto-hammer it
we can disagree on theory and still agree on the specific mission

the flaw right now is that you seem to be reading me based on setup spec that you disagree with.

i don't fake setup spec as scum. my sig is probably the funniest example of people scumreading me for suggesting "optimal strategies".

you may think that what i'm doing is pro-scum but that would make me wrong, not scum.

so what are you scumreading me for? do you think i'm aware my strategy is shit and i'm pushing something that will fail? or do you think that i'm just faking what town-me would propose in this situation?

if the former, you're reading surface level like i said. if the latter, then you need much more of a case to argue "mathdino is faking his towngame to a T and this makes him scum".

Also you supposedly wanting to put both spies in the mission still does't explain why you are not putting yourself in there.

think about this sentence and get back to me

[Mathdino]

sounds good!

VOTE: Mathdino, Irrelephant, Bujaber

[Mathdino]

VOTE: math,paradox,iconeum

wait no that's inconsistent
UNVOTE:

elephant solve bujaber/iconeum alignments for me pls

[Mathdino]

that's great since I know i'm town and dino is probably town from that first post i'm gonna sheep that
VOTE: MD, TGP

paradox, this post is overexplainy and a bit LAMISTy
i assumed D1 that scum would jump at the chance for some juicy towncred

i get the sense that i'm gonna have to explain like every single thing i do lol

read between the linessss

[Mathdino]

I'm really sorry.
I can't believe I forgot about this game, I knew there was a nagging feeling at the back of my mind.
Philosophically I think the best way to win the game is to get either an all-town team or two scum one town team, I know I'm town, and I see Dino and Elephant as aligned together, so
VOTE: TGP, MD, I11

this might actually be correct

worth nothing that no matter what if bujaber or iconeum is scum, they've both proposed teams with 2 scum on them

unless irrelephant is scum

i don't know what to make of that

[Mathdino]

because i really don't understand why you're townreading bujaber

[Mathdino]

this is actually a farce lol

what the fuck are you guys townreading about paradox i can't even

i literally designed that first mission so it would be a pass regardless of paradox's alignment

why would i succeed the first mission only to 1v1 paradox and refuse to let him on future missions anyway

[Mathdino]

this is actually a farce lol

what the fuck are you guys townreading about paradox i can't even

i literally designed that first mission so it would be a pass regardless of paradox's alignment

why would i succeed the first mission only to 1v1 paradox and refuse to let him on future missions anyway

scum-me with this strategy just fails the first mission knowing i was gonna 1v1 the other member of the first mission anyway

[Mathdino]

it means
that if i were scum
the first mission would have been a failure
because no one actually gives a shit about towncred from the people who went on the first mission

your reads make 0 sense with your proposed teams

bujaber is top scumread

i'm primarily iffy on iconeum as a result

paradox was legit a "his first post was scummy and he hasn't done shit since then" read

[Mathdino]

I accept that his inactivity could be a valid reason for scumreading him but you scumread him way before that. You went in with the idea.

the fuck?

inactivity is the least valid reason for scumreading him

i scumread him for being weird as fuck in his first post

i took him on the mission because i knew scum-him would never sabotage if he was up against town-me

every single time i've been in a game with paradox as either alignment i've won a 1v1 with him (or just mislynched him straight up). every. game.

that's why i specifically chose someone who would be afraid of me

[Mathdino]

nah

you don't get to play an incredibly surface level game and then deny the extra information i have that can be used to generate reads

if he's scum, there's no way for you/iconeum/irrelephant to know which between me/paradox is actually scum

also, i specifically worded every post to not even have a possible interpretation of telling who to pass and who to sabotage, specifically so all-pass missions can't be used against me

you seem more focused on possibilities than probabilities

[Mathdino]

like you don't seem to understand that "mathdino proving to you he's not brain dead" is not alignment indicative for me

i could talk to you all day about logic for mission 3 and be exactly as convincing as i want as scum

but logic isn't alignment indicative and neither is effort
and neither are general opinions on resistance strategy

yet you've managed to toss away the useful info for getting reads while taking into account the useless

[Mathdino]

Icon and TGP give this a chance.. math has ignored my step by step process of figuring out if math/tgp is 0, 1 or 2 scum. Don't go on a mission with him. Until he agrees to math/tgp/buj I don't agree to any mission he is on.

how does this help anything

i think you're scum

if there's 1 fail (which there almost certainly will be)

how does town figure this one out between 3 possible spies

[Mathdino]

ummmMMMMM

if mission 2 fails with paradox/math/bujaber

and then paradox/math somehow gets sent on mission 3 (something that i would not approve of)

and THAT fails

then that makes lylo on mission 4, where town has a 25% chance of guessing correctly between math/paradox and irrelephant/iconeum

your strategy is lowkey selfish

it doesn't work here because lack of simultaneous voting

[Mathdino]

bujaber, the first mission is most of the time completely meaningless

you could pick any 2 players to be the given mission 3 fallback option

there's no actual reason to send math/paradox and especially not if you don't think we're both town

now i can argue that as a spy i would've failed the mission

i don't think paradox can really argue that, so i'm nullreading him at best and scumreading him because i have stronger townreads elsewhere

your strategy just seems completely independent of reads and i don't get that

[Mathdino]

mission 1 IS meaningless for the entire game though that's the point i'm trying to make

[Mathdino]

what's your read on bujaber

i disagree with him on like everything but i guess i'm 'starting to see where his town self is coming from

[Mathdino]

...if mission 2 passes then we've essentially won already

[Mathdino]

what possible scumteams are you seeing

because it seems almost certain that at least one scum has proposed a mission with themselves and their partner

[Mathdino]

haha i only won spyfall because i figured out the location on page 2
i was playing my towngame after that

i want more content from paradox

[Mathdino]

Paradox is correct from his pov
Idk if that makes me suspect him more or less xD
I can't really fault him like I fault Buj/icon haha

[Mathdino]

thus far the only team consistent with the actual votes is bujaber/irrelephant

[Mathdino]

VOTE: math,paradox,iconeum

this might've been correct the whole time actually

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Iconeum, Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox

this is the only mission that's consistent by the votes if we go on the assumption that scum will not put the entire scumteam on the mission

open to being convinced otherwise

[Mathdino]

wow gottem

dat VCA tho

[Mathdino]

That's interesting and is something I'd like to discuss in the Discussion thread.

It's actually fairly well accepted right now that on the mafia side of things, forum mafia is significantly more scumsided than face-to-face, because ability to reread the thread is nowhere near as good as being able to read your friends' faces. So the loss of the leader mechanic (which was dropped due to difficulty of implementation), which I'm not sure I'd call scumsided, is 'balanced' by the newfound ability to do VCA.

If you look at the Resistance game I modded, the entire scumteam basically continually fucked VCA by voting each other onto teams and signaling or just passing missions they didn't have to. Town didn't stand a chance at all.

But, that game was 7p and this is 5p. So balance is definitely a discussion that should be had.