Geriatric Ruleset Discussion Thread

[Ellibereth]

I mean posting in MD totally truthfully without thought to meta manipulation is probably very suboptimal gameplay wise.

[Ellibereth]

I mean posting in MD totally truthfully without thought to meta manipulation is probably very suboptimal gameplay wise.

The assumption is that you think that holding back the meta strategically is the 'correct' thing to do in some manner. Based on this reasoning it would also be optimal to never let anyone have access to your scum PTs.
I think the goal should be to speak honestly based in the present then evaluate your future decisions based on having spoken honestly.

No? It'd be optimal to be aware and in control of the information that's going to be released in any originally private setting.

While that might be your goal, that's certainly not universal, and my only point is that the potential detriment of posting here is at least part of the reason some people don't - not the "shitposting".

[Ellibereth]

I think what we don't see fundamentally eye to eye on whether selfishness for the sake of victory is good or bad so.

i for one have a massive article typed up that will definitively hurt my scumgame once published

You're already practically creature - can't hurt that much.

On another note - a large percent of potential posters is also practically always in an ongoing game.

[Ellibereth]

Edit: to be clear it will hurt my scumgame by (hopefully) making enough town players better at a specific thing

mathdino wrote a programming tutorial confirmed

[Ellibereth]

I think absolute selfishness for the sake of victory is correct in, say, League of Legends where my only obligations are to myself winning. Our viewpoints on the matter would have been a lot more similar years ago but I've drifted a lot in that regard.

I mean there's no 'correct' answer with regards to this - it's just a potential, though albeit most liely small, inhibitor to ppl posting "seriously" here.

[Ellibereth]

- programming

Someone with enough time and resources that's sufficiently clever could make that the second most important scum skill.
Right under having money.

[Ellibereth]

I mean it'll take longer in the sense that it'll take longer for someone with sufficient resources to feel like trying.

I also think you'd be surprised at how short the "far longer" part could potentially be once someone does try but I'm not that interested in discussing the details of this stuff here.

[Ellibereth]

lmao full circle
gj

[Ellibereth]

You are free to make that leap. I am not particularly compelled as of right now. They might matter if the meta got to a point of hyper sophisticated tools.
I think that if it gets to that point, that most people are consistently using tools to help their scumhunting, it'll kill mafia. I've been slow about it but I am planning to push for a large scale ban on such tools.
To me it's the same as separating TAS from normal playthroughs of video games and such, or not allowing people to use bots to play chess for them.

Computers are allowed in correspondence chess which is much more apt comparison timeline wise to mafia.

[Ellibereth]

Anyway what I don't think you're realizing is that the majority of work doesn't have to happen during a game.

Analyzing chess games with a computer IN BETWEEN GAMES isn't banned in any setting.

[Ellibereth]

Uh idk how it's a vast misinterpretation.
Computers are generally allowed for correspondence chess time controls and banned for classical and shorter time controls.
Games for the former case last a month or two on average, games for the latter last from minutes to hours.

[Ellibereth]

Anyway what I don't think you're realizing is that the majority of work doesn't have to happen in a game.

Analyzing chess games with a computer IN BETWEEN GAMES isn't banned in any setting.

This is true but the difference between static and dynamic resources is not a one to one equivalency with mafia.

I have no idea what you're saying here.

My points is you can't ban someone from doing research with whatever resources they see fit with on publically available information when they're not competing in that setting at the time of research.

[Ellibereth]

Is this dynamic/static stuff with regards to chess?
The norm for what is and isn't allowed in terms of assistance is exactly what I said in 110.

And have fun arguing for a ban on research between games.

I'm not allowed to ask players to help me during a game with said game.
I AM allowed to get a team of as many people I want to help me when I'm not in one. Heck, the way the rules are now I think I'm allowed to get a team of as many people to help me research anyone not involved with the game I'm playing.

Keep in mind you don't even need an account or to have ever played mafia to do effective research.

[Ellibereth]

I mean I don't think you'll succesfully argue for a ban on how preparation can be done when not in game, and let's not even discuss enforcing, but good luck trying.

[Ellibereth]

Also in terms of being "gated", you realize hiring a bunch of people, paying them minimum wage or mechanical-turk style payments, and assigning them various concrete things to analyze is already more than enough to have excellent results by any standards yeah.

[Ellibereth]

Also in terms of being "gated", you realize hiring a bunch of people, paying them minimum wage or mechanical-turk style payments, and assigning them various concrete things to analyze is already more than enough to have excellent results by any standards yeah.

Absolutely this would have basically the same level of success. But this game thrives off of people

not doing that

. And I don't think it would be difficult to convince the mods to ban anyone who did this.

I fundamentally disagree. More people devoting more resources to doing well is more likely to make something thrive. If anything creating an economy in this game would be a good thing.

And I also think it would be very difficult to get said example banned - it's no different than a team of seconds helping someone/each other prepare for anything.

[Ellibereth]

This isn't a world of technicalities - you're saying that getting or hiring people to help you get better at something is something that's obviously bannable when if anything it should be encouraged.

[Ellibereth]

I mean it'll obviously majorly change how forum mafia exists as an entity.

You think for the worse, I think for the better.

[Ellibereth]

The major change would be the eventual potential for a "professional" form of this game to exist one day, sure the rules and structures might be different, but if you think the status quo is a good one for the future then we also fundamentally disagree so.

[Ellibereth]

I mean I think it's linked to a lot of stuff, but you know I'm working on it myself so.

This whole convo has probably run it's course, let's say something about geriatric games.

[Ellibereth]

I think that the amount of lost interest in mafia from the development of the game in the form that you want would kill any hope of the game being taken seriously professionally.

Why MS isn't moving forward is something I have a lot of personal thoughts on but I'll keep them to myself here.

The only thing I can say is we shall see!

[Ellibereth]

I mean rather than 'shouldn't be playing mafia anymore' I think the demographic is still too mixed.

If there's a set of players who can literally only play on weekends, there's nothing wrong with that if every player just comes on and posts once or twice a week. The problem is when that set is mixed with people who can post once or twice a day and then etc.etc.