Maria's Anime Binge Game over!
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Oh shit I didn't even notice we had choices to make, gimme a sec
...
k, thoughts on choices:
1) Double lynch D1 seems like a trap, if we're confident we can chain 2 scum D1 then by all means let's fuckin go for it but I don't think this is something we necessarily want at this point in time (although it does give us functionally 2 "days" to find scum without them having a chance to act unless their roles have some really weird day-phase interactions, so... ehhhhh? I think this is the sort of thing I want to get 10+ pages into the day and get a feel for the crowd before I reasonably evaluate it)
2) Knowledge is power is a mantra that gets repeated a lot (in more or less or different words) in Mafia, and this is definitely knowledge of a sort. This seems like the conservative pick but depends entirely on what information we actually get, which will probably be limited enough to stop us *air-quote* "breaking the format"
3) The power level of this varies wildly - I'm gonna try and explain this the only way I know how, with Magic The Gathering. There are cards in Magic referred to as "punisher" mechanics wherein they give your opponent 2 choices (in this case much more than 2 choices presumably) that in theory are both really fucking bad for them but in practice they just choose whichever choice does the least damage to them in terms of resources/lifetotal/board state/etc, and that's what this choice feels like - I'm not sure in strict terms of game theory this is actually that good a pick because it basically reads "scum pick the 2 abilities that are least useful and continue to not use them just like they were gonna anyway"
tl;dr right now I think Choice 2 is the safe pick (notgreatfor us, but probably doesn't do anything for the scum either), Choice 3 probably has the lowest ceiling in terms of how much it will hamper scum and is probably not great (IMO), and Choice 1 is something we can't yea or nay until people have started posting in significant numbers (highest ceiling but the lowest floor IMO); and therefore we shouldn't make any calls yet. None of these are going to be as good as the initial read suggests.- KidAmn
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That's a reasonable point on choice 1 that I forgot to include - more info from the double lynch.
Like I said, I think it'll be situational, game is rolemadness so we might get more from D1 than we expect or much less, but it does have the highest ceiling in terms of raw utility for us.- KidAmn
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This is fairly close to being an outright lie. I may not be 100% behind 1 but the case had definitely been stated for it.In post 75, Tywin Lannister wrote:Still haven't seen Wisdom, or any other proponent of option 1 explain why they want it.
Ironic that Taly and Beeboy disappear off into a closet before half the players have even engaged with the game.- KidAmn
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I don't think anyone's argued that its bad, just that it has the lowest ceiling in terms of how useful it could be.
What about Taly felt fake to you?- KidAmn
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That's something we could probably use having clarity on, but I think I addressed this earlier with regards to scum likely just dropping whatever powers they feel are lowest utility/outright power. It scales dramatically with how powerful scum roles might be (and does depend on if your interpretation is correct, so I'll concede that)In post 94, Kokichi Oma wrote:How is it the lowest? Am I assuming this right that scum EACH have to lose 2 of their powers?
I think this might be reaching a little. Like, I grok where you're coming from, but fuck knows I've made some incredibly overthought entrances as town in my time. Not sure it's indicative of anythingIn post 95, Kokichi Oma wrote:
This post seemed like it was trying too hard to prove they are town.In post 14, Taly wrote:In the name of the town, I'll vote you!
Taly could have just said the regular "In the name of the moon, I will punish you!" and everyone would have gotten the same affect from it. Just seemed like a preplanned scum post.- KidAmn
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Looking at the standard of some towns I've been part of recently... I give us a 50/50In post 103, acryon wrote:If someone leads us into a mislynch for the first one, do you think we follow that person into a second?- KidAmn
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Nothing in your ISO points to Srceenplay, wanna put some thought behind that naked (contextually) vote or just gonna hop on the lil baby bandwagon?In post 109, Randomnamechange wrote:
agree with this post.In post 82, Misaka Network wrote:Son, I voted Choice 1 because I like lynching scum.
Regarding disappearing people, I think Taly picked Beeboy and dragged him into a PT.
I don't know why you would save a miller claim from a lynch though.In post 18, Taly wrote:I was questioning on whetherBeeboyorCreaturebecomes the object of my early hard-defense.
But I think my choice is close to being made.
i honestly think that option 1 and 3 are the obvious good ones, but 2 could have something lowkey good in it. i rly dont know which to go for rn
VOTE: srceenplay- KidAmn
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Okay, let's just hold up a gosh darn second. Can someone explain to mewhySrceen? Because other than him wanting setup info over a double lynch, I'm not seeing a case. Like, if that's the case and y'all think that's inherently scummy, that's fine, but naked votes don't help me grok that.- KidAmn
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In post 115, acryon wrote:
My reason for placing the vote was joking, but I think it's a reasonable vote because his play looks LAMIST to me.In post 114, KidAmn wrote:...no? Okay.- KidAmn
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See, this makes sense. "LAMIST" is just shitty memetalk.In post 118, Randomnamechange wrote:basically he came in seeing people talk about the vote, tried to act nonchalant about it, then came up with a deviant position to try and show himself contributing original thought to the topic. could be genuine, could be faked.
Aight, you got me.In post 119, GuyInFreezer wrote:I personally made a vote because I read #112.
PEdit:- KidAmn
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In post 124, Creature wrote:Checking in because I haven't obvtowned yet.- KidAmn
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If I forced a feeling, I'd be flattered right rn.
But it's very forced.- KidAmn
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I'm lowkey super uncomfortable with this post, and the fact that it's Katsuki's only post in this game so far.In post 133, Katsuki wrote:prod dodge
Anyone who wants a power up from me can claim their anime and a single character. Please @Katsuki so I can skim for claims thanks.
Faker.
Top-tier mid-laner for SK Telecom.
But for real either you're serious about this and have more reach then Stretch Armstrong, or joking but still poking at Screen in which case... I don't fuckin know, I'm not sure these choices are designed to do anything more than fuck with us at this point judging by, y'know, them having that exact effect so far. Actual scumhunting is in the shitter, half the players have barely posted, scum are probably happier than a pig in shit, yada yada, Fall of Rome, yada yada- KidAmn
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Your posting is annoying and this is a lie. My thoughts on choice one were and have remained (to paraphrase) that it has the highest possible ceiling but also the lowest floor if we fuck up, and that none of these choices were/are that great. I also said that I wanted more time to evaluate. Saying I oppose option 1 (and then immediately tying that to being scummy) is literally lying out your ass.In post 177, Purrcocet wrote:BUT OUCH THE FACT THAT KIDAMN OPPOSES OPTION 1 GIVES ME BAD FEELINGS, SCUM ARE ALWAYS MORE LIKELY TO OPPOSE OPTION 1 IT'S LITERALLY THE STRONGEST ONE FOR TOWN POTENTIALLY
This just seems like an attempt to throw shade and look like you're engaged with the game? Yeah, that's a hard no from me.
VOTE: Purrcocet- KidAmn
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Just realised I didn't address this:
The reasoning most players have given for jumping on the wagon is tenuous at best, although I concede that so little is happening that this is the (il)logical result. It's not so much a TR on Srceen as a concern about the reasoning behind the votes.In post 180, Tywin Lannister wrote:KidAmn: Why are you worried about screenplay getting votes? Also, why choose to defend him, rather than see how he would respond? What's the TR on him for?- KidAmn
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And half the players in the game have barely engaged in it. That's Not A Good Thing (both the speed of the wagon, and the lack of engagement).- KidAmn
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HAH I WAS JUST KIDDIN BRO IT WAS A JOKE BRO WHY U MAD BROIn post 201, Purrcocet wrote:
Ur not wrong but you realize ur just fence sitting on those options lolIn post 193, KidAmn wrote: Your posting is annoying and this is a lie. My thoughts on choice one were and have remained (to paraphrase) that it has the highest possible ceiling but also the lowest floor if we fuck up, and that none of these choices were/are that great. I also said that I wanted more time to evaluate. Saying I oppose option 1 (and then immediately tying that to being scummy) is literally lying out your ass.
AND I dont know why you reacted like this when I wasn't going at u really I literally am pushing two different people
WHY?
Yo Nosferatu Whats Poppin
It was an outright lie. I'm hardly a proponent of Lynch All Liars, but that was so blatantly not what I have stated on the topic that I struggle to believe it was anything other than intentional, and I struggle to see a pro-town motivation for doing so. The fact that you're now trying to deflect me with this "I ain't even wanna fight man" stuff isn't dissuading me either.- KidAmn
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I mean, from a design perspective, I assume it was intended to drive more discussion especially in early games and create a point of contention. It's certainly done the latter, but so far it's been an unusually quiet day by MS standards.
Or maybe there just aren't enough shitposters compared to the games I usually end up in.
PEdit: for what it's worth, 100% agree the Wheme flipflop is sketchy, as is their complete lack of reasoning. It just feels weird that they wouldn't at least fake engagement with the game and like... copy the reasons everyone else gave for voting Srceen. I get the feeling they're probably not exactly well known for their impeccable reasoning and lengthy cases though.- KidAmn
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My thoughts on why Srceen wagon is bad (which I'm pretty sure I've stated before) - the wagon feels very path-of-least-resistancey to me, like people have jumped on an opinion that is not necessarily alignment indicative but playstyle related. "If scum have taken a leadership role, 2 D1 lynches that could be directed by scum is a bad thing" is not an inherently anti town opinion to hold. Hells, at this point I think I'd rather take the safe option of nullifying some scum power than the double lynch, simply because of how shonky this D1 has been for us. If there's more engagement and scumhunting happening I'll happily change my mind on that, but for now (since I haven't yet,
Vote: Choice 3
In post 127, WhemeStar wrote:Srceen wagon is something I won’t be apart of
This line of play from Wheme could just be Wheme "being a shithead", but for someone to go from "I will not vote Srceen" to naked voting with the justification "ur scum" feels really off to me. I don't know enough about Wheme to really make a judgement call on if this is just how they be or not, but I don't like it.In post 217, WhemeStar wrote:
I realized ur scumIn post 209, Srceenplay wrote:Don’t be a shit head.
You said you where never voting me. Now what happened?
I mean, I've caught Purrcocet in a lie/attempt to discredit me earlier, so I'm happy with my vote there. Wheme bears investigating too IMO.In post 274, Randomnamechange wrote:there is a serious differnece between thinking a wagon is a bad thing and thinking we shouldnt be wagonning srceen. is anyone opposed to wagonning screen but would support a wagon on someone else?
PEdit: The whole defeatist thing from Srceen rubbed me the wrong way, so did a shallow meta dive.
Looking back at recent games, Srceen did something similar-ish in Gunner MafiaIn post 303, Srceenplay wrote:Everyone who is saying screen is definitely scum, you are going to be surprised. Not all of you can be scum though. That’s what sucks about it.
Stop postering and get it over with. I fucked up on my picks anyway.and Mini Normal 1996
both posts prior to being lynched as scum, so now I'm conflicted. Wheme's posting is WIFOM af though...
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I believe generally motivators permit their target to either use their ability twice. I've seen a motivator in an offsite game that instead unlocked "powered-up" versions of abilities, but since the former is what's listed on the Wiki, I'll assume that holds true here.- KidAmn
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EBWOPIn post 314, KidAmn wrote:I believe generally motivators permit their target to either use their ability twice, orI've seen a motivator in an offsite game that instead unlocked "powered-up" versions of abilities, but since the former is what's listed on the Wiki, I'll assume that holds true here.- KidAmn
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In post 133, Katsuki wrote:prod dodge
Anyone who wants a power up from me can claim their anime and a single character. Please @Katsuki so I can skim for claims thanks.In post 275, Katsuki wrote:prod dodge
Lemme know if you ever want to actually play the gameIn post 325, Katsuki wrote:"What happened to your speech pattern, Misaka?" asks Katsuki as Katsuki frowns with slight disappointment.
In post 108, NicoRobin wrote:1137
Same @ youIn post 149, NicoRobin wrote:lel- KidAmn
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I eagerly await the responses to this from everyone on the Srceenplay wagon.In post 327, Katsuki wrote:Oh just realized we were suppose to vote on options at game start...
1) Dunno how I feel about double lynch, in theory it's optimal townchoice, but at the same time we're playing a role madness game so that gives us less nights to work with.
2) Setup info to be provided is unknown.
3) Mafia getting the choice to vanillarize two of their roles sounds like a giant trap to me. Probably have some sort of negative utility or other less desirable powers to get rid of.
hmm... I'm probably gonna forget to revisit this at this rate considering I still haven't dragged myself to read anything yet so going to drop a vote first.
Vote: 2)- KidAmn
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Looking back, Keychain makes a couple of references to 2 being the best option for scum (#100 and #187) and voted Tywin for him pushing against 1/for 2. Nobody outright called "voting 2 is a scumclaim" but, itIn post 331, acryon wrote:
Were there many people who were calling voting 2) a scumclaim?In post 329, KidAmn wrote:
I eagerly await the responses to this from everyone on the Srceenplay wagon.In post 327, Katsuki wrote:Oh just realized we were suppose to vote on options at game start...
1) Dunno how I feel about double lynch, in theory it's optimal townchoice, but at the same time we're playing a role madness game so that gives us less nights to work with.
2) Setup info to be provided is unknown.
3) Mafia getting the choice to vanillarize two of their roles sounds like a giant trap to me. Probably have some sort of negative utility or other less desirable powers to get rid of.
hmm... I'm probably gonna forget to revisit this at this rate considering I still haven't dragged myself to read anything yet so going to drop a vote first.
Vote: 2)lookedto me like what provoked the wagon on Srceen was his taking up the contrary position in favour of 2; acryon stating it was for LAMIST, random's #118 gave me the impression it was related to his vote and the way he went about it...
What I'm trying to say is, I want to see what those people voting Srceen for his approach to The Choice think of Katsuki's approach. That'll tell me a lot more about that wagon.- KidAmn
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You're TECHNICALLY right which is the best kind of right.In post 334, Wisdom wrote:im not voting src for his approach
Did I say best? I meant worst, because I don't recall you ever giving a non-joking answer with regards to why you are voting Srceen. So feel free to take this opportunity to share with the class.- KidAmn
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Acryon asked for examples of people calling voting 2 a scum claim. While your vote in that post wasn't on Srceen but Tywin, that was what it was for. I thought I'd made it clear.- KidAmn
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Conflicted is about right. Most of the justification for the wagon has been minor or nonexistent, and Wheme's flip concerns me but could be any number of things. The reaction matching his defeatist recent scum plays as he approached being lynched has me less positive on him than I used to be, but I'm loath to race ahead when we have so many lurkers/low content posters.- KidAmn
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I never stated I had a positive read on Srceen. I've voiced concerns about the speed of the wagon and the tenuous or lack of reasoning from those on it, but also concern about Srceens reactions. I don't know where you got this positive read nonsense from.In post 197, KidAmn wrote:Just realised I didn't address this:
The reasoning most players have given for jumping on the wagon is tenuous at best, although I concede that so little is happening that this is the (il)logical result. It's not so much a TR on Srceen as a concern about the reasoning behind the votes.In post 180, Tywin Lannister wrote:KidAmn: Why are you worried about screenplay getting votes? Also, why choose to defend him, rather than see how he would respond? What's the TR on him for?- KidAmn
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FWIW, from several games with Creature his lack of interest in the game is completely NAI. Bit hard to go through and cite on mobile, but have seen him like this as both alignments.- KidAmn
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Purr hasn't done a ton to worsen or improve my opinion on them, so I'm fine with it for now.In post 345, acryon wrote:
That's fine. Still comfortable with him as a lean-town for now.In post 344, KidAmn wrote:FWIW, from several games with Creature his lack of interest in the game is completely NAI. Bit hard to go through and cite on mobile, but have seen him like this as both alignments.
I know your vote is on Purr, but haven't really made additional mention of it since. Is that your preferred lynch still?- KidAmn
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Town games of Creature:In post 357, Srceenplay wrote:
show us the town gamesIn post 344, KidAmn wrote:FWIW, from several games with Creature his lack of interest in the game is completely NAI. Bit hard to go through and cite on mobile, but have seen him like this as both alignments.
Large Normal 206 (Died N1): viewtopic.php?f=55&t=73076
Open 701 PYP (Died N3): viewtopic.php?f=52&t=74021
Civ Mafia (Died endgame - this is the ultimate outlier of a game): viewtopic.php?f=56&t=70415
Open 674: (Town win, lived to endgame): viewtopic.php?f=52&t=70520
Scum games for comparison:
Stockport: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75246
Micro 794: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=75509
Mini 1987 (hydra, replaced out): viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74736
Teal Deer: I don't believe short, sparse posting is anything other than just how Creature plays; the lack of content is a potential indicator of the disinterest they note as part of their scumplay but if I was to go after everyone in this game who isn't putting a shift in I'd need 6 or 7 votes.Creature's Wiki wrote:As town, most of the time I'm interested in solving the game and getting scumflips. As scum I'm always disinterested because what would you do as scum? Wait town mislynch? That's your moment of happiness?Though, I'll still try to imitate my town meta as scum, though, just as an obligation.- KidAmn
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Less positive != positive. One can slide down a scale from neutral to lesser.- KidAmn
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It's hard to draw parallels between "regular" games and games that last barely a month, but I can see the comparison in content levels/shitposting. Someone remind me (or just do the work for me) to look at other Nico games.In post 377, WhemeStar wrote:
As in you were scum and Doing same thing your doing nowIn post 366, NicoRobin wrote:
That game ruled.In post 364, WhemeStar wrote:This reminds me of Stockport mafia- KidAmn
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Amen. 2 lynches (assuming concensus doesn't change) shouldn't be viewed as "hey we got a freebie".In post 408, GuyInFreezer wrote:In post 389, Kokichi Oma wrote:let's just get screen and see what it flips, we will have 2 lynches. if he's scum we have enough associations by now.
What the hell noIn post 407, acryon wrote:
This.In post 389, Kokichi Oma wrote:let's just get screen and see what it flips, we will have 2 lynches. if he's scum we have enough associations by now.
We are not lynching screen for info.
We are lynching to kill scum.
Info is only a side effect and I won't accept this lynch for "primarily info"- KidAmn
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The more Srceen posts, the more I'm not liking their posts. The sheer volume of flailing coming after I pointed out his defeatist approach fits his scum meta, plus the willingness to claim N2 but not N1 role, is cause for concern. I can't honestly see why someone wouldn't be willing to claim their current role, unless it's something that could very easily be proven to be a scum action.
unvote;
Vote: Srceenplay
THIS IS L-1.- KidAmn
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Unvote
Claim makes some sense (self-upgrader + motivator seems like the sort of combo you'd want to reward smart play by town, assuming that interacts how I think it would?) and while I'm not totally convinced by Srceen's reactions later in the wagon, we're not exactly pressed for time to scumhunt further.- KidAmn
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@mod I voted for Option 1 a while ago
Just woke up, skimmed thread, will look at things properly after coffee.
Fixed~ModLast edited by MariaR on Thu May 10, 2018 5:55 am, edited 1 time in total.- KidAmn
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"passively assertive" what does that even mean, other than a continuation of your new "lemme throw any shite I can and see if it'll stick" strats? Fuck sake, I've put more work in than most people in this game and now that after my read changed on you after the last few days and me calling you out on your defeatist shtick being exactly what you did in your last 2 scum games, I'm the problem? State of you, lad. State of you.In post 516, Srceenplay wrote:
I was originally feeling the same way as wellIn post 513, Purrcocet wrote:"Hey guys Are You ready to Solve this game I am You can clearly tell See by Me doing these solving Towny things And this rhetoric and You can also read the conviction in my voice *looks at minorly scummy thing* THAT SCUMMY FUCK"
*postures*
that's what GIF sounds like to me
But I’m wondering if I was wrong.
What if it’s kidam that’s the one doing this.
Kid feels passively assertive.
Guarantee in the pile of people who have done nothing but shit post or have barely engaged in the game at all, we've got at least 2 scum laughing their arses off as we talk ourselves in circles. FWIW I agree with everyone on Wisdom's list, Creature and Nos have barely engaged with the game, Kokichi feels like they're coasting along until someone brings them back to focus (and I liked gif's play and think Kokichi floundered real hard on it) WhemeStar is probably scum who flipped (and still with no reasoning) on Srceen when the wagon built a head of steam for town red, and Nico is a dead slot in terms of content so I'd rather see it force replaced at this point.
Vote: Srceenplayin case it wasn't counted the first time
Vote Option 1
PEdit: and Srceen isn't even reading the game this point now I guess?- KidAmn
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We can disagree on why those people are scum while still both believing that list to be a decent summary of a likely scum pool. You're working from src as town, fine. I'm not, and I've articulated why.- KidAmn
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Anyone who scum reads kokichi is instantly OMGUS'd, done so to GIF and Wisdom now. Would not be unhappy to look deeper on that one either.
Pedit: GIF has literally explained exactly why he did what he did as a reaction test. Come on.- KidAmn
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In post 575, Wisdom wrote:
ehIn post 573, GuyInFreezer wrote:Wheme - looks like gungho town tbh with confident "I gotcha scum"
not sure about this- KidAmn
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In post 108, NicoRobin wrote:1137In post 149, NicoRobin wrote:lelIn post 366, NicoRobin wrote:
That game ruled.In post 364, WhemeStar wrote:This reminds me of Stockport mafiaIn post 579, NicoRobin wrote:mii
Can someone explain to me why this slot isn't being force-replaced or strung up with extreme prejudice? Is this just something that people allow to fly here now, have we fallen that far?In post 581, NicoRobin wrote:mii?- KidAmn
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Vote: NicoRobinShape up or ship out. There's no reason as town to be coasting with this little interaction with the game at this point.- KidAmn
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Unvote Kokichi;
Vote Nico
Srceen can presumably at least have his N2 claim confirmed by whoever he hooks up, although given that this is rolemadnessthat may not mean a whole bunch, and I'm more than happy to run Kokichi up D2 to confirm this IC shit... which just leaves someone who (unless things are REALLY fucked up rolewise) is just faking a post restriction to get out of actually playing.
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In cryptography, a Caesar cipher, also known as Caesar's cipher, the shift cipher, Caesar's code or Caesar shift, is one of the simplest and most widely known encryption techniques. It is a type of substitution cipher in which each letter in the plaintext is replaced by a letter some fixed number of positions down the alphabet. For example, with a left shift of 3, D would be replaced by A, E would become B, and so on. The method is named after Julius Caesar, who used it in his private correspondence.- KidAmn
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Looking at their ISO... nope. Townreads a few people, null on Wheme, tempted to townread Katsuki. Has mentioned schoolwork and not liking The Choices so could be fairly NAI. Creature is pretty detached and spartan in their posting regardless of alignment in my limited experience with them, although usually hits a higher post volume than this.In post 675, Misaka Network wrote:Has Creature scumread anyone yet?
@Mod - if we lynch a player and lock in Option 1, will there be a time extension on the day?
@Everyone Else- if the above isn't the case, we may not have time to actually make sense of the first flip/associatives and get something done with Option 1. Is it possible it could be smarter to shift to another option here? We've had a lot of dead hours in this game and bounced back and forth - might be the stronger play to knock out scum powers or get setup info rather than take a choice that we then end up not making use of (but presumably still would be taking off the slate).- KidAmn
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Alrighty, disregard the section of my post about the time constraints/changing option then.
Hahahahahaha... oh wait, you're serious. Let me laugh harder. Convenient that you popped up as soon as people mentioned you.In post 682, Creature wrote:Fine, if you need me to tell you a non-mislynchbait wagon: what about we try Wisdom?- KidAmn
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All three are fine, agree Nico is probably better vigged or preferably replaced out.
VOTE: Srceenplay- KidAmn
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In post 745, Keychain wrote:No flip? Is that because of the double lynch or an action?
All I know is that I really hate that I was right when I said that this could be a trap. Having no flip and therefore no associatives makes this... really fucking rough.- KidAmn
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Non-zero possibility that scum were aware of this and that withholding the info from us is part of the setup. I wouldn't be surprised if all the choices like this we get are traps in some way.In post 776, Katsuki wrote:
It would have been nice if you disclosed this information at the start. It's quite a crucial piece of detail you left out that would have factored into our decision making.In post 764, MariaR wrote:Since there's a bit of confusion I want to make it clear Screenplays flip will be shown at the end of the second lynch.
I'm like 90% sure one side of this GIF creature thing is scum and will go back and look at both more closely after work. Wheme's reasonless initial flip onto screen looks super opportunistic especially if, as I expect, scum were aware that our choices were poisoned chalices. Wheme's overall contribution to proper scum hunting has been derisory at best as well.
Kokichi gets a pass until his claim is proven but still not a fan of the slot based on their actual posting.
Gods this would be so much easier to work out with the screen flip. Like, everything he was doing was consistent with recent scum meta, but I can't just assume...- KidAmn
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Right now (pending my reread on Creature/GIF) I'm looking at Creature, Nico, Wheme. Randomidgets slot is basically nonexistent so want to see more from NSG. Pretty sure a significant chunk of the scum team is staying as quiet as possible to get through what has been a terminally slow d1.
Would be interested to hear the whys on Toranaga. - KidAmn
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