Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Brigand Vvulf]

VOTE: Gorkington

[Brigand Vvulf]

awww I was hoping my vote would redirect to a player.

Why would you think this would happen?

scumpost

VOTE: brian

[Brigand Vvulf]

hopkirk reads town

grey why are you voting hopkirk

[Brigand Vvulf]

but did you use your face though?

[Brigand Vvulf]

VOTE: screenplay

[Brigand Vvulf]

nero could be scum

tor and bee seem town

[Brigand Vvulf]

crazy theory: grey is scum

[Brigand Vvulf]

I dont think Hop is scum though

it feels as though grey had his couple opening lines prepared and chose to use it on Hop

[Brigand Vvulf]

Ok I'm all caught up

Brian Skies is easily the scummiest player in the game and should be wagoned/lynched

Why does 67 come from scum?

asking questions that don't really go anywhere

asking questions without really looking for a meaningful answer

[Brigand Vvulf]

nero could be scum

tor and bee seem town

Is that a meta read or?

not really no

[Brigand Vvulf]

I was going to ask Brigand if he's Creature, but then I remembered something...

I'd prefer the name vvulf

[Brigand Vvulf]

with a double v

[Brigand Vvulf]

ok bye

[Brigand Vvulf]

all these fuckers saying the scumread me but don't have the balls to stand up to me and say why are getting death tunneled and lynched.

I mean you had a couple opening posts that seemed like awkward scum but take it however you want

[Brigand Vvulf]

weak townlean from ISO

could really be anything, but feel is town.

I think... ausuka/greyice/centipede are the scummiest, and then 0 posters are probably scumheavy.

so this is game so far. I'm basically townreading everyone that posted anything reasonable outside of these 3. yes, including brian.

p much agree /w this except i would be comfortable lynching brian and screenplay

there's so much noise to parse through reading quick is giving me seizures

[Brigand Vvulf]

weak townlean from ISO

could really be anything, but feel is town.

I think... ausuka/greyice/centipede are the scummiest, and then 0 posters are probably scumheavy.

so this is game so far. I'm basically townreading everyone that posted anything reasonable outside of these 3. yes, including brian.

p much agree /w this except i would be comfortable lynching brian and screenplay

there's so much noise to parse through reading quick is giving me seizures

I'm scumreading this slot. Tell me why I'm wrong.

tell me why you're right

[Brigand Vvulf]

vvulf is a pretty solid "oh fuck its end of day and we havent found a lynch" lynch.

a fresh irritant, to some, a sanguine memory, to me

[Brigand Vvulf]

ausuka who else are you scumreading besides tchill?

[Brigand Vvulf]

thor was p town last time i checked his iso

[Brigand Vvulf]

town

toranaga
beeboy
gorkington
creature
spiffeh
hopkirk
thor
cheeky
bins
panopticon


nero
brian
centipede
grey

the worst

ausuka
mariaR


tchill13
srceenplay

scum


more or less where im at rn
most of these reads come from ISOing since its kinda hard to skim through the thread normally

[Brigand Vvulf]

faking content might be easy for creature but i dont think it's as easy to fake the motivation behind those posts

[Brigand Vvulf]

Panop i recall ur brazen pushes on quick and creature were p scum driven but at the same time the way it was done, was so blatant, and without fear of backlash made me change my mind

[Brigand Vvulf]

i have someone as 100% scum now.

only one though and I'm too busy to do the rest so I'm leaving that to chara.

stay tuned.

[Brigand Vvulf]

Okay, I understand that's the post.
Can you explain the case/deeper read?

Spoiler: quote

Not at all. I'm not reading through that shit.

I mean whats the reason for your vote then?
And why are you choosing to just ignore all this games content and just complaining about the lack of it.

You saw me do the exact same thing before when I was Town so I'm really not sure why you have a problem with it???

I voted who I thought was the "leader" of the Scum faction.

This post seals them as scum for me.

Why is that? You don't think Beeboy looks bad at all because of that? Is it Scummy of me to defend myself in this manner? Why is it Scummy? I pointed out a fact, not a speculation.

You say when you “was town”. That reads to me that you aren’t this game but ar aware enough to try and make yourself seem that you are. It reads fake.
I don’t get what beeboy is arguing. I just see it as forcing content and to me it looks like it worked.

I know answering for others is bad but rather than letting your back and forth continue that is seemingly delving into irrelevancy, i'm gonna comment here since it touches on my screen SR

the quote above contains the deeper read on quick from srceen, at the time. while 182 is inherently scummy and it's easy to see that, the justification srceen gave was odd; it felt like it was hazily done, it was, off

in short, instead of focusing on the intent of that post, screen chose to focus on the semantics

[Brigand Vvulf]

Madness - sublimity of the intelligence, or so it has been said

[Brigand Vvulf]

say what

[Brigand Vvulf]

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

[Brigand Vvulf]

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

I was really hoping we wouldn't resort to cases this game, but

ask and thou shall receive my friend

I just ISO'ed nero again. The issue I see with nero are that A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate; B) he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads; C) instead opting to take a lot of neutral stances then backing away from the discussion. D) There's also the over the top self-awareness, the unnecessary abrasiveness in dismissing scum reads on him, and in general being consioucs and reactive when confronted with the slightest of pressure. (but this could be a playstyle/gimmick so less emphasis on this part)

A.
1. 1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations
2. responding to ausuka's TR on creature, but offering no original opinion
3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

B.
1. with regard to ausuka's town read on creature
2. with regard to tchill being scum, leaving him a spot to join the wagon later if needed

C.
there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

D.
1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him
2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names
3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090
4. responses to cheeky, etc

[Brigand Vvulf]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

[Brigand Vvulf]

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

This is where we run into a philosophical difference. I don't lynch for information, I lynch to kill scum. If Tchill flips scum, then the information I've gathered is "the scumteam is down a member". That's a big disadvantage to be at on day 1. Not insurmountable, but everything gets a little bit harder for them. Easier for power roles to catch them, less members to pull gambits or counterclaim townies, just less wiggle room in general.

Plus I'm not convinced Nero Cain gives us that much information. Unless you're saying tchill is playing so badly his buddies are bussing him for town cred, at which point... eh, I'll take a scum lynch.

If the tchill wagon keeps chugging, would you consider joining? I've seen literally nothing to make me unvote him so far. I'd definitely consider helping you on NC, especially over some of the wagons I consider low quality (Centipede or Brian Skies), the fact that tchill is literally the only serious wagon happening right now does give me pause.

I'll gladly take a tchill lynch if there is no better alternative, but I think the nero read is worth pursuing and I'd like to see where it leads

[Brigand Vvulf]

parroting what gork just said, I don't think in this situation the immediate response for a townie would be questioning whether my motive is lining up lynches

like what

[Brigand Vvulf]

is that a question?

[Brigand Vvulf]

If I'm town and someone drops a case on me, my immediate thought won't be anywhere near the leading wagon; it would be looking to refute the case

[Brigand Vvulf]

that's not the question though.

ok I really don't see where this is going but if you think my read is wrong then by all means we can talk about that

[Brigand Vvulf]

cool, I'll respond when I get home

[Brigand Vvulf]

A) he's appearing to look active without really contributing anything of value to advance gamestate

this is really subjective. Ask Cheeky how this worked out for her?

i raised a point based on my observation. if people agree, great, if not, that's perfectly fine, but what's the point in saying "this is really subjective" here? i mean what are you even doing stating the obvious here, or are you really saying that cases should contain nothing but the objective truth?

Spoiler: quotes

he likes to dip in discussions that don't produce meaninful results that could then leads to reads

???? I've given plenty of reads this game

1105 pre-emptive discrediting while responding accusations

???? Why is arguing that I did not like Tor's stance scummy? Is this a wrong post number?

there are lots of exampes but the one that stood out was in 1090 when he offered an opinion but didn't pursue it any further

out of the three I talked about in that post only Tor responded and we each said our piece and moved on. I'm not sure what you feel like I should be doing here. Should I instantly start yelling that Pan is scum?

look dude, quantity doesn't matter, it's the quality that matters, and this is what i mean with trying to look active, without really doing anything in the end (the ausuka's creature townread should be fairly obvious so what are you even doing poking your nose there?). they could have gone somewhere, but it feels like you didn't intent for them to go any further

3. 1258 dismisses the tchill wagon but approaches it from a wierd side angle while responding to grey, offers an unimpressive lurker isn't always scum defense, no opinions on people on the wagon

you aren't even talking about the Tchill wagon. I don't think its a good wagon. I mean sure, I guess I'll give you that my 1279 could theoretically give me a loophole for voting him later (you are doing the same btw) but why does my read on tchill have to be static? Why can't I have reasons that pull me one way and reasons that pull one in the opposite way?

I'm also hard scumreading GreyIce (1284 ) You didn't even talk about the tchill wagon up until recently so I don't think you really have ground to stand on.

true, I didn't talk about the tchill wagon at the time. but between not talking about it at all, and sitting on the fence about it, that's a big difference. but why does me calling you out on it make me scum? why would i even bother as scum when i could have just taken the low hanging fruit? this is something you're simply refusing to consider

Spoiler: quotes

1. I was offput by his consious effort to shake off the early SRs on him

I mean, sure. Town do the whole naked voting reasonless votes thing but I don't see the problem with me asking you and Tor to back them up.

3. self-awareness re: beeboy 1090

Town can't be self aware?

2. A major proponent is the back and forth with toranaga with the absurd amount of OMGUS and jumping to the conclusion that tora must be scum, examples of this would be in 1134 where he discredits for seemingly non reason, and in 1248 where he mentions that scum could be sheeping tora with wagons but takes no initiative to spot any names

Eh, Tor wasn't very townie but I don't think I ever reached the conclusion that he can't just be bad town. 1134 is just an assholey way of saying I didn't like his reads. I feel like your more just sticking up for a friend than anything b/c why do I have to like his reads? Why does disliking said reads more likely to come from scum than town? Your right that I haven't taken the few minutes to ISO the mod and see the wagons that Tor was leading and who was following him around. Its something I said and its something I think could be possible but I'm not married to it or think that someone keeps voting with him that they HAVE to be scum.

I never said town can't be self-aware, but certainly not to your degree, it's incessant nature, to the point where it's like an obsession. you dont have to like other's reads but you dont have to be an asshole about them either. as demonstrated in multiple instances the way you handled scumreads on you is poor at best. but like I said could be your gimmick so w/e

[Brigand Vvulf]

it seems like several people pointed out nero is town based on meta; meta is krap but due diligence gotta be paid i suppose

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

could it be... the alphaGO of mafia?

I, for one, welcome our new bot overlord

[Brigand Vvulf]

it seems like several people pointed out nero is town based on meta; meta is krap but due diligence gotta be paid i suppose

Elli isn't a paragon nom because he uses a machine every single game. you realize that, right? if this wasn't an organic read he would have told me that.
VOTE: Maria

could it be... the alphaGO of mafia?

I, for one, welcome our new bot overlord

tbf, he is town through meta.

based on meta i'd say nero isn't as analytical as some of his town games, but he did start to give off town vibes since my push

(the ausuka's creature townread should be fairly obvious so what are you even doing poking your nose there?)

I still have no fuck what the clue this is? Yes, Creature town read

WAS

obvious. That's why it was a little that Tor was giving Asuka flak for town reading Creature so early. Like are you just coming to your friend's defense here b/c I don't think you really get it?

i dont even know tora lol i found him pretty transparently towny so that automatically creates bias for me when im reading your back and forth, if that makes sense to you

tchill seems pretty town since he came back

[Brigand Vvulf]

eh, i can buy the panop read
there was this odd post back then, he seemed in a rush trying to push the lynch through without really giving tchill a chance to town it up

yes, I agree that tchill is comparatively more scummy than nero, and the ISOs will faithfully reflect this, but the reason I'm less inclined to lynch tchill is largely due to the fact that it is a low information lynch because few people have had real interactions with him, namely toranaga and you. We can always lynch tchill later on if this doesn't not change but he is a small fish in a large pond

On the other hand, it's actually better to get it out of the way now. If he's scum, he's marked by his team as lynch bait and they will change how they interact with him, which will give us less information than flipping him today. I also agree with GreyICE that the only good scum is a dead scum.

VOTE: panopticon

[Brigand Vvulf]

you've made a terrible mistake

[Brigand Vvulf]

i dont even know tora lol i found him pretty transparently towny so that automatically creates bias for me when im reading your back and forth, if that makes sense to you

It does but its pretty surface lvl stuff "u must b scum since you r arguing with my town read."

that's not what i meant

[Brigand Vvulf]

creature that was actually pretty savage

[Brigand Vvulf]

prodigious number of posts alone does not dissuade the sharpened blade =)

[Brigand Vvulf]

12. Panopticon (Varsoon and Tn5421) (yea, changed my mind)

is this one of those creature reads or is there more substance to this

[Brigand Vvulf]

random can you not ruin my TR on ur slot kthnx

[Brigand Vvulf]

what if ausuka/maria/bins are all scum?

:thonking:

[Brigand Vvulf]

random can you not ruin my TR on ur slot kthnx

i feel like u arent appreciating the value of the meme economy im trying to kickstart here

i get it dude but you have to realize there's already 80+ pages

[Brigand Vvulf]

the best use of people's time for the rest of today is to just assume maria is scum with me/chara and work with us on finding the buddies.
I'm not going to pull any secret meta cards on the people left I don't think so it'll be fairly traditional.

i keep trying
but i keep failing

for anyone to put stocks into your read they'd have to first, well put blind faith in you, and two, think maria is pulling a PR stunt to simply buy more time
otherwise they can just say "man, this puts us into a rather difficult position I'd rather not be in" because can't analyze the wagon

what do

[Brigand Vvulf]

People saying I need to die makes me really depressed.
Lost all my titles and get scumread in a hydra game
It's like junior prom all over again

On the real, though, why don't we have a lynch yet?

-ObserVed

why are you saying that like they should be reasons not be scumread you?

[Brigand Vvulf]

are you good at reading maria? what do you think of her reaction to centipede's meta read so far?

[Brigand Vvulf]

i think i'm fairly good at reading maria. i think i lean slightly to over scumreading them iirc.
elli is a v good player and i def believe he could be doing this as scum. if you gave me their read without context, i would probs put 60-70% odds on maria flipping scum.

oh yeah it would be worth if you could give your read on the whole fiesta around tchill

[Brigand Vvulf]

i think i'm fairly good at reading maria. i think i lean slightly to over scumreading them iirc.
elli is a v good player and i def believe he could be doing this as scum. if you gave me their read without context, i would probs put 60-70% odds on maria flipping scum.

oh yeah it would be worth if you could give your read on the whole fiesta around tchill

can you give me a set of pages to read for this? i've read some bits of the game and a few isos? do you want a tchill read or look at other content as well?

independent read on tchill is sufficient

[Brigand Vvulf]

I'd go for the blind faith route.
It's pretty juicy.

ok understandable have a nice day

[Brigand Vvulf]

Okay, it's bad if GreyICE hasn't read his role PM.

why do people still fuss over this like somehow not reading ur role pm makes you more likely to be scum? lol

first of all if he's town he'll play like a vt

secondly if he's scum that's one fewer scum to coordinate so it's a long term liability

lastly who tf cares

[Brigand Vvulf]

Yeah to play in this game you really have to get ready to sink down to the depths of despair.

I'd ask why there's like 200 posts since I last opened this fucking disaster area, but I can't be arsed to care.

can you feel it?

the walls between the sane world and that unplumbed dimension of delirium are tenuously thin here...

[Brigand Vvulf]

Okay, it's bad if GreyICE hasn't read his role PM.

why do people still fuss over this like somehow not reading ur role pm makes you more likely to be scum? lol

first of all if he's town he'll play like a vt

secondly if he's scum that's one fewer scum to coordinate so it's a long term liability

lastly who tf cares

It matters because it's prime WIFOM bait.

o...k? i still fail to see how thats relevant towards getting a read on him based on content alone

[Brigand Vvulf]

i like his gut

[Brigand Vvulf]

The idea is that he wouldn't know if he had any special abilities (vanilla) and that he wouldn't know who the scumteam was (uninformed).

ok fair, in the former case it's strictly anti-town

and in the latter case that only becomes relevant on his scumflip, which kinda gives people more incentive to want to flip him...

[Brigand Vvulf]

oh i thought u were responding to me and this is how you said if he rolled a PR he wouldn't know his abilities (former), if scum wouldn't know his scumteam(latter)

[Brigand Vvulf]

Yeah ok i think this is the lynch today

VOTE: mariar

[Brigand Vvulf]

ok whats ur point then

[Brigand Vvulf]

but somehow my vote instantly invalidates everything that has happened that could point to maria scum, got it

[Brigand Vvulf]

would've been better to let quick come to that realization himself

but im just sheeping centipede at this point

[Brigand Vvulf]

would've been better to let quick come to that realization himself

but im just sheeping centipede at this point

As is pretty much everyone else on that wagon. Otherwise, the reasons for being there are extremely convenient.

if you can present me with an argument for this is how town!maria defends herself from meta reads, I might actually consider it over just hearing you shouting "this is NAI" over and over again

[Brigand Vvulf]

I think it's a good idea to stop checking this thread for a while to preserve whatever semblance of sanity I have left

[Brigand Vvulf]

I don't want CS flipped ever.

you do realize that they are actively advocating for your lynch right?

between that and you not wanting CS flipped ever, I feel like there's a logical gap that's probably larger than trump's ego so can you fill us in pls

[Brigand Vvulf]

the part that's baffling is having no drive whatsoever to fight against your eventual lynch

[Brigand Vvulf]

I'm town

[Brigand Vvulf]

wait how did you use your ability already?

[Brigand Vvulf]

also, is it possible to format our response as "I know X is scum"

if used by town, the mod will say "i dont know" since town doesn't know for a fact that X is scum
but if used by scum and X is his partner then mod will say "yes"

pedit: what

[Brigand Vvulf]

maria can you use the ability any time during the day?

[Brigand Vvulf]

once per phase but yes.

6. All day actions, if they do exist, may be pre-submitted to be done at any time.

kinda confused how that works when this rule exists given you can't really pre-submit the post # you want detected?

[Brigand Vvulf]

i saw the worst started posting but I didn't read said posts yet

were they thumbs up or thumbs down

more like thumb sideways

[Brigand Vvulf]

[Brigand Vvulf]

VOTE: panopticon

[Brigand Vvulf]

4. Thor665
6. Ausuka
7. CheekyTeeky
12. Panopticon (Varsoon and Tn5421)
14. Srceenplay

^ my scumpool

[Brigand Vvulf]

i dont think grey is scum

[Brigand Vvulf]

i dont think grey is scum

y not?

guy pushed heavily away from Maria lynch. I'm not sure he even talked about it b4 but I've been in kinda skim mode

there is a thin line between misguided overconfidence and scum agenda and i dont think it's the latter case for GreyIce

[Brigand Vvulf]

so idk why im writing a town case for a mafia game on a fucking friday night - i realized half way through but at that point it's too late to stop. So here is a town case on grey

He has mastered the command of language. His posts contain the perfect vocabulary, and he writes them in a sharp, witty tone (albeit arrogant from time to time). He's also good at capturing exactly how an exchange goes, what positions people are in, and extracting useful information out of them. You will rarely find bullshit in his posts; what you will find is pure unfiltered content that defines his position in this town. Because of this his posts are precise and concise, which means they are easy to read, which means you are more likely to read his posts. Which gives off a towny impression when you're just reading his words alone without even needing to analyse them.

He has a way of laying out his thought processes. Now his read aren't something you might agree with, but the progression of his reads is usually laid out in a manner you can easily follow, and sync with. This means his posts are more likely to come from a town mindset than a scum one.

He speaks and deals in absolutes, which means more often than not he's putting his foot down on everything. he seems overly confident, even if his maria read is demonstratably wrong, but it isn't blind confidence, you can actually see the reasoning behind most of his propositions, you can also find that they are backed with evidence/analysis

he places less emphasis on meta, which means his reads came from interactions in this game alone. This makes HIM more readable in the end. None of the shit like "I'd do this as town, I'd do that as scum blah blah blah"

he comes off as unnecessarily abrasive, at times, and will often make whoever he's talking to seem like they forgot how to logic, but it's usually a done to prove a point, and he knows when to stop to prevent getting into dumb debates. This is something i tend to associate with town rather than scum

The last bit is interesting - he, uh, actually talks to people, and tries to motivate them even if it means slapping them down to the harse reality. something you will very RARELY, and almost never see from scum because there's no visible benefit for him

Spoiler: POSTS

//break

Also why me doesn't equal fry me or else nobody would say why me.

Of course it does. Always has, always will.

This "tell" has been around since we first started here. It was never that accurate to being with and is likely even less accurate now. Not really liking the strongarm.

Tell you what, if you're right... eh, I still won't give a crap. You're wrong.

//break

You know, tchill, your 3 pretty shoddy posts, followed by a temper tantrum over being wagoned because "townies are getting away with the same thing" without any sign of scumhunting?

Yeah, it's pretty fucking bad play. It's also pretty fucking scummy play.

You'll excuse me if your award winning argument of "I'm scummy and have no idea who is in the game, but I'll still flip town, you meanie!" doesn't win any points.

Do you plan to start playing at some point? Or just try and threaten us with a "townflip" and scumplain about how people aren't nice?

//break

@Grey - I'd actually love your take on the question I asked Toranaga above also about Srceenplay.

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative. That bit about you being Quick's partner was more than a touch scummy though. As is his epic vote sit on Quick (which is also not indicative of Quick's alignment - parking a vote on a buddy not being wagoned and then not pushing for their lynch is both good distancing and completely fucking useless)

If the mod PMed me and said "vig or don't vig" I'd shoot him, but there aren't many people I'd say no to a free vig on. If you want go go corral a wagon I'm game, but the one I'm on seems pretty good to me.

//break

Oh and I absolutely promise to hammer Quick if he's at L-1, regardless of anything. It's pro-town.

speaking in absolution, no wiggle room, needlessly scummy, draws attention, i dont see how that could come from scum

//break

chara has to give the illusion of centipede seeming town before they drop their guilty on town and have to deal with the aftermath tomorrow.
(;

Eh, sorry, centipede is like a 90-95% town read. Think about it, you have a hydra chat. Your buddy, an extremely experienced player who you respect a lot drops a cool read, but he's only half explained it and has to run. You're convinced you can't explain it as well as he can, it's too cool not to mention, but if you post it you'll wreck their awesome reveal.

I understand WHY he's doing this, I just don't think it's the right move.

//break

it looks like screenplay is not gaining any traction so

VOTE: nero

a couple of his recent posts rubbed me the wrong way

Look, you're town, so I'm going to let you in on the sad thing about these large games. It takes 11 to lynch. There's probably 5 scum, leaving 16 townies. That means if six townies decide to play The Lone Ranger and go off on their own, we would be unable to lynch anyone the scum didn't want us to lynch. In point of fact,

even if the person you are voting is scum

this is true - with 5 scum, there's enough we could split our vote between scumbags and still not get anywhere.

In short, Lone Ranger votes like these rarely accomplish something, even if they happen to land on scum. So try to sell us, or try to work with us. Nero's posts legit aren't great, but something like this isn't really going to sell us. It's a weak vote, that puts no pressure on Nero (because he needs 10 more to get lynched) and doesn't really even have bullet points for him to address (and potentially make himself look scummy). It's effectively a non-post due to game size.

If this was a micro things like this can work, because there's so few people that just putting a vote out there is important, but in a game like this you aren't even 10% of a lynch wagon. So please, lets work together.

//break

Like brother, if you really think this, where's your vote? It's not like it's doing anything, you haven't had a vote down since the Bush administration.

But if you plop your vote on Brigand Vvulf, then people will see it in the vote count. They might even try to figure out why. While right now most of the town is skipping half of everything because this town generates more pages than is reasonable. A conversation like this? This could get passed over. But your vote in the count is forever.

And man, no one is gonna buy a Brigand Vvulf vote. That's a damn ugly one to commit to having immortalized in vote count, ain't it?

//break

Can you explain why?

i feel gross about gi just completely ignoring my scumread on him, hes spent a lot of time not really trying to accomplish something specific and his pushes in particular just feel like they dont actually have anything behind them in a way that i would expect from town him.

with bins, i kind of felt like the buddying on me was undeserved at the time, especially since im apparently having a scummy game according to everyone and their grandma :')

Oh okay, here. You're town, you don't really care what I have to say, you'll either come around or you won't, so I'm not going to waste my energy.

Other than that, you're complaining that I'm not engaged with the game. Well, yeah. I've repeatedly complained it's such a fucking spam fest that it is hard for me to read. My solution has been to simply abandon the idea of reading the worst offender (singular) and ignore conversations with him as well. Since then, I've had some decent reads, and I'm more than a little annoyed that you are simply dismissing the Nero thing out of hand. That being said, I don't think you give a flying fuck whether or not you're playing well, and since you're town I don't feel like getting into a fight with you.

So there we go, first and last address of it. Take the olive branch or don't, because trust me in the grand scheme of things you being wrong is no skin off my nose.

//break

Literally more work for you to type that paragraph out than to say "I'm voting Nero Cain" just so you can belittle me to make your point.

Point made.

The point wasn't really that I'm voting Nero Cain. It's that this 11th hour effort doesn't contain much... effort. The problem with reading you is that you haven't done anything resembling scumhunting, and while a lot of people are behind thanks to the volume of posting, it feels like you're barely trying. That leaves me trying to read you off tone and a lack of effort, and tone reads are unreliable at best.

Like dude, this progression under pressure is classic:

Regardless of Tor's alignment...he knows. I'm just willfully antagonizing him on his bad reads. Not all that interested in the tchill or Screenplay scum reads he's pushing either.

Also why me doesn't equal fry me or else nobody would say why me.

Of course it does. Always has, always will.

This "tell" has been around since we first started here. It was never that accurate to being with and is likely even less accurate now. Not really liking the strongarm.

I sorta feel like Tchill would try to be more visible as scum as opposed to lurking 30 pages. Sure, there's the possibility that he was busy IRL and rolled a scum pm but I don't feel like the case on him is strong.

vote:tchill

All this and I still can't decide whether or not Nero Cain is just bussing, because you've set yourself up to be lynched or vigged so hard I don't think if you were scum scum would be bothering to try and preserve your slot.

So yeah, uh, Nero Cain is classic scum and I'd STILL need more reason not to vote you (as I said to BVV earlier, ego sticking on one scumread day 1 in a large is counterproductive to getting scum lynched)

//break

Like really, Elli, I'll give you respect as a flimflam artist, but man that list is just your actual reads.

never said it wasn't

You're hilarious.

But sorry, this Maria wagon is not my jam.

//break

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

So I'm left between picking on Tchill or Maria. I don't even feel this is very hard.

Vote: Tchill

Not too opposed to MariaR, wouldn't vote Panopticon if you paid me after those fucking votes.

//break

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

Ignoring the wagon, what do you think about Panopticon?

He's loud, angry, and as sick of this day as I am. Despite that, the hydra heads are trading off duties trying to stay involved in this cesspool.

Slight Scumlean
Srceen - My gut says otherwise, but I feel like this post is unnecessarily nitpicky (and I feel like that's more of something scum might do). I'm also not getting good vibes from his hardtunnel on the Quick slot. So it's probably more appropriate to put him here even though

I'm also not a fan of his immediate reaction to Thor.

Not really sure what I could be engaging or interacting with him on, so...?

You're really not sure?

THEN WHY ARE YOU VOTING HIM

Because I think he's scum.

sigh

Why do you think he's scum? Surely there is a reason or two, and that is

something you could ask him about

.

AKA: What you could be engaging or interacting with him about.

So why do you seem to think you have

nothing

to engage or interact with him about?

Like fuck, he wants to nutpunch people for this dumbshittery as bad as I do, but he's trying. No way in fuck I'm lynching that.

//break

Sure. That's well within the realm of possibility. It's why I said to Brigand earlier that we can't go off on our own too much, because even if every townie voted scum we still couldn't get a lynch through in a game this size.

But of the two I see Tchill as very possible and more likely to be scum. And I hate Elli's "tee hee I'm too lazy to make a case". I mean what do we do if she's town tomorrow, lynch Elli? Shrug and ignore him? I hate that shit.

Tchill successfully makes the case on himself quite nicely, if nothing else:

tchill is on every major wagon at its peak including centipede. thats worth noting for later.

//break

GreyIce is still a good vig target.

Your 'read' is a statement.

Yes Hopkirk, this is a brand new thing, and I've never interacted with you before. Where you whined that I wasn't sufficiently nice to play the game, and that therefore I was scum. And should replace out. And here's the thing, all your thoughts have been surface level and garbo, all your votes have been surface level and garbo, and I really think you're a better player than what you're playing. Your votes are shit:

VOTE: Centipede

For the super fake tone of 496/500.

I'm caught up.

Nero is clear and so is hopkirk.

What about Beeboy?

VOTE: Pan

This is some serious weaksauce. And I don't mind tossing around a vote willy-nilly, or not making a case every time, if it's done with a clear town motivation, but lord god.

I feel at least a bit good about: Toranaga, MariaR, Beeboy, Ausuka, Cheeky, Quick, Brian, Nero, Brigand (a bit), Screen (a bit)

Zone of people I need to interact with: The Worst, Tchill, Panoptican UNVOTE: panoptican, Bins, Spiffeh

Hive of potential scum and villany: Thor665, Gorkington, GreyIce, Centipede

Man Hopkirk, you feel good about Beeboy, MariaR, and Nero? Your hive of scum and villainy is Thor, Gork, me and Centipede?

Again, reads can change and evolve, but this isn't so much evolution as it is just "whatever works at the moment".

OK, so yesterday I was thinking Ausuka, cheeky, Hop, Nero, and beeboy were all in a hood.

Gork has a good point on counterwagons.
UNVOTE: Pan

Wasn't Gork part of the "hive of Scum and villainy?" Whatever, he had a good point.

I'm super fucking sad this town won't lynch your sorry ass day 1, Hopkirk.

[Brigand Vvulf]

the worst just read his posts i think you will see what i mean

[Brigand Vvulf]

@the worst, it's fine, you are entitled to your own opinions

but i think a lot of people are going to group him with scum after the maria flip, which is unfortunate since im TRing him and think he would be valuable

[Brigand Vvulf]

Nah, when I flip town,

I don't have to play this game with you baddies anymore

man, is scumplaining all you do in this game?

Like, I already believe them to be scum, so, if the onus of pushing them is really "where is the case," then whatever case I make is going to be arbitrary and ultimately be me just arguing where I could see scum motivation in their posts, but, like, damn it, I already have stated that I see scum motivation/logic in those places, so can't you evaluate the slots on your own and determine if I'm wrong or not?

-obserVed

i'll take an arbitrary case filled with confBias over "just look at the slots im scumreading and tell me if I'm right" any day

[Brigand Vvulf]

oh, but shouldn't you be saying i'm a potato player instead? =)

[Brigand Vvulf]

Pretty sure that was Toranaga calling people potatoes, not Panopticon.

pretty sure varsoon volunteered to assume the responsibility somewhere

[Brigand Vvulf]

Usually Town
Bins
Ausuka


So I think Maria's push on Gork + the aggressive 180 pretty much never happens on a scum buddy, I don't really see Maria trying to distance like that.
Elli/Chara never hard bus I think that literally goes against how both of them play as scum so I am pretty sure they are town here. Like Elli's scum play is just hope town kills themselves, when forced to make content he mislynches 1 more town then instantly dies as a result.
And I don't think Chara has the confidence in her scum game to bus Maria and hope to go deep as a result.

I think Bins and Ausuka are more likely to be town due to the really half assed push that Maria made on the 2 of them.

bins town read i could get, but did Ausuka's wagon ever pick up steam/was in danger of being lynched?

you dont think its possible that maria was pushing her buddy there?

[Brigand Vvulf]

I assume people are going to be opposed to my GreyICE read.
But I am not really sure I just town read him? I think his not reading his role pm is 100% a gimmick and I don't really feel like that's a scum gimmick. The thing is when playing a scum game offsite I once said I wasn't going to open my scum PT anymore and try and forget who my scum buddies were and Mulch literally went out of his way to contact me to say that wasn't allowed. And that doesn't really strike me as a gimmick.

wow im glad someone agrees with my grey read, i was starting to lose confidence

[Brigand Vvulf]

Haven't read a role pm yet. Also not reading the abhorrent 129 pages of Day y'all got going on.

Hello.

Ok, have read my role pm.

Still not reading 129 pages though. Whats up?

this also feels funky to me.

Wow. You're trying to throw shade on me for not wanting to read 129 freaking pages? Y'all had the benefit of reading it real time as it unfolded. Mulch personally asked me to fill in, and I told him sure, but that I wasn't going to read anything, because of the length. I'm trying to get information, and you jump on me to say my entrance is funky??? You also "corrected" my post asking for info.

Not liking you for town so far.

liking this post for townchick

but that's just nero cain being nero cain i think

[Brigand Vvulf]

I tone read GreyICE as town, (I provided a case earlier) which basically boils down to the question: "has be been operating on good faith?" and I think he is.

[Brigand Vvulf]

You sure love meta dont you.

[Brigand Vvulf]

Is “know 10 scum/town games for every player” the requirement to play on this site?

[Brigand Vvulf]

it gives good context for whether the things people are doing make sense and in some cases makes it really obvious when someone is scum.

i really think townGrey spends more time shaking specific people by the shoulders to tell them how dumb they are for townreading hopkirk and/or not pushing hopkirk.
the amount of time hes just been soapboxing him being scum without actually accomplishing much in doing so doesnt really strike me as genuine and i also think his reads are generally less static as town.
his general stancing on maria/centipede stuff has been incredibly safe and he more or less tried to play outside of that entire situation.

this isnt meant to be a fully fledged case btw.
this is just where my head is currently at on him.

fair, but there's also tailoring your meta to fit a specific narrative, etc... but that's a can of worms I'd rather not open right now

also your grey reads is intriguing enough I'll probably spend a miserable afternoon looking into it

[Brigand Vvulf]

UNVOTE:

holy shit guys, my town (toronto) just had a van going berserk on pedestrians on the sidewalk. major roads closed, i dont know when ill be able to get home, or how. so im here to play some mafia guys

[Brigand Vvulf]

I'm fundamentally dissatisfied with a grey lynch. I think I still stand by this.

[Brigand Vvulf]

I'm fundamentally dissatisfied with a grey lynch. I think I still stand by this.

Why so?

cuz I townread him and I kinda predicted that this was gonna happen?

[Brigand Vvulf]

12th hour "save the GREYICE!" is lame.

Fan the flames!
Mold the metal!
Save the GREYICE!
Order the FRIED RICE!

We are raising a counter wagon!

VOTE: srceenplay

[Brigand Vvulf]

Assuming we dont off me before that, you have my word my dude

[Brigand Vvulf]

I'm here. what is grey at?

[Brigand Vvulf]

intent to hammer

[Brigand Vvulf]

we have like 2 hours to deadline

I would like to point out that procrastination - it follows you for life

[Brigand Vvulf]

My bad, for some reason I thought you were posting again and again attacking Hopkirk and making a case on him distracting us all while the Grey wagon builds steam and the Srceen one dies.

I feel like I've made it abundantly clear that I want to lynch srceen.

Also, yes, I'm attacking Hop because I'm questioning his motives. Let's say you're right on both your Grey and srceen reads. Do you have any way of figuring out if Hop is protecting a buddy to survive at least to the night phase while setting him up for a bus down the road? I honestly have no idea how I would be able to make this distinction unless I challenged him on it as it happens, as if I wait until tomorrow to do So, he can just go 'well I was scumreading him yesterday, why not just ask me yesterday?' or some variation thereof.

I feel like brian sounded town after reading this bit, like it really resonated with me

[Brigand Vvulf]

Not at all. I'm not reading through that shit.

I mean whats the reason for your vote then?
And why are you choosing to just ignore all this games content and just complaining about the lack of it.

You saw me do the exact same thing before when I was Town so I'm really not sure why you have a problem with it???

I voted who I thought was the "leader" of the Scum faction.

This post seals them as scum for me.

quick's slot can't be scum based off of this interaction alone

it's srceen's first serious read/vote settling into the game, it can't be on his buddy

[Brigand Vvulf]

VOTE: screenplay

terrible ISO

Happy to lynch you tomorrow

VOTE: Srceenplay

You can just stop.

VOTE: screenplay

crazy theory: grey is scum

series of bad posts. If we apply the 1 in 3 rule? creature is scum here

[Brigand Vvulf]

I see a Corpsekington I vote with a Corpsekington

VOTE: cheeky

[Brigand Vvulf]

hahaha so funny xd

[Brigand Vvulf]

Chickadee pushing Brigand Vvulf of all people hurts me inside.

Ok, but how do you feel about his push on easy-to-read-creature?

I know Im not greyice but im feelin pretty lucky if I do say so myself

[Brigand Vvulf]

apart from meta and "high post count", if that's even a thing, how are people TRing creature based on context?

serious question

townbloc will do fine with or without creature

[Brigand Vvulf]

THATS LITERALLY NOT WHAT I ASKED

but, eh, okay.

[Brigand Vvulf]

when I skim through those ISOs, I see a very demotivated scum. Are you saying that if creature is motivated then he can never be scum?

[Brigand Vvulf]

from what I understand:-

1. creature has not played a scumgame in at least a very long time that was outside the scope of those ISOs.
2. creature has not played a towngame in at least a very long time that is outside the scope of his ISO this game.

wow. that assessment is both a brilliant way to read him, and borderline insulting his level of self-awareness lmfao

[Brigand Vvulf]

I accept there's a >0% chance he's scum but it is not higher than like. 5% max.

he's not the flavor today and won't be for at least a couple days. Imma sleep on it.

[Brigand Vvulf]

I am fine with a beeboy lynch too

VOTE: beeboy

I'd like to think that since the scum team suffered catastrophic losses on day 1, even if there are 2+ scum left, the most optimal strategy for scum at this point is to bus with absolute conviction when presented with the opportunity, then play the lone wolf game and hope for the best.

For this reason please do NOT association hunt between living players after we get another scum flip (provided the game doesn't end then).

[Brigand Vvulf]

Living players from this point on. Everything that happened on day 1 is useful

[Brigand Vvulf]

I think the low activity levels are largely attributed to the fact that town victory is a inevitability and not a remote possibility at this point. I mean wouldn't you think so too? Does anyone see a world where we reach LyLo? Not saying I endorse this behavior, because scum would

love

to lurk it out, but I don't even think town can lose to dumb luck or divine miracle right now due to sheer mathematical probabilities.

In chess terms, we've reached a winning position against our opponent. How we win is a matter of technique. Let's not stall unnecessarily.

[Brigand Vvulf]

Scum victory is inevitable if town starts thinking derpy like that

Town victory is statistically more likely currently. But slips, cups, and lips, as they say.

Are you telling me to remind myself that "overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer?" ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[Brigand Vvulf]

More beeboy votes please.

[Brigand Vvulf]

If bins is scum?
1) I dont believe it
2) I will be very impressed at how wrong I am.

[Brigand Vvulf]

demotivated like your scum meta aha-ha amirite

[Brigand Vvulf]

I was making a joke about your meta

[Brigand Vvulf]

I think you might be on to something. keen nose

[Brigand Vvulf]

why are people jumping off the beeboy wagon so quickly? because of the claim?

OMG FLASHBACKS TO YESTERDAY'S SRCEENPLAY WAGON
OMG FLASHBACKS TO BINS DISMANTLING THE CLAIM

MARIAR ARE WE TOWN TOGETHER FOR ONCE

Gun to head Gork and Maria is TvT

OMG SO MANY FLASHBACKS

[Brigand Vvulf]

UNVOTE:

[Brigand Vvulf]

scum trolling at this point

[Brigand Vvulf]

However, I'll unvote for safety.

UNVOTE:

So here's the deal: If Beeboy is faking, the Town Gunner can shoot him. If he dies, that's fine. If not, we know he's lying anyway and we can lynch him still.

town gunner already took a shot at cheeky

[Brigand Vvulf]

it's shitposting hour bois

[Brigand Vvulf]

waiting for beeboy to die to anti-claim powahz

[Brigand Vvulf]

no, nah, nah, no

you have interesting reads

[Brigand Vvulf]

no, nah, nah, no

you have interesting reads

you town reading them, why?

i think i already explained my grey, bins, skies read

as for spiff, dont have a strong read but def haven't seen anything to lean scum so he's a nah too

why are you scumreading spiff?

[Brigand Vvulf]

VOTE: cheeky

In case shes not dead enough

[Brigand Vvulf]

Lol

[Brigand Vvulf]

AP collateral damage to the sweep

[Brigand Vvulf]

R.I.P