Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Gorkington]

diff heads on that last bit srceen

[Gorkington]

Goodnight self.

Shad, I mean this in the nicest way possible, but

shut the fuck up

. You made 20 posts in the past day, and the content of them could easily fill 2 small posts instead.
~tn

found the reason

[Gorkington]

chara where are you basing your expectations of varsoon off of?

[Gorkington]

spiff:

viewtopic.php?f=94&t=71431
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=73801
viewtopic.php?f=56&t=59714

i couldnt find a single scumgame of varsoon getting mad the way he does here
and all of these towngames have the same kind of feel.

i'll dive grey at lunch today and try to make a case if i still feel good about him being scum after doing so.

[Gorkington]

its aight. im also a shitter.
chara can attest.
(:

we can be bitter twitters tittering eating-fritters dont-need-no-babysitter shitters together.

[Gorkington]

we could talk shop on tchill?
whereabouts are you at on him in general?

[Gorkington]

will be my lunch so thats perfect for me.

[Gorkington]

stop rolling scum and winning games then?

[Gorkington]

roll scum and be bad
or play badly enough as town that people forget why you won paragon
(;

[Gorkington]

bins why is grey 99% town for you.

[Gorkington]

can you be specific on the reasoning as to why you think his stances and opening are more likely town than not?
im more trying to understand why youre feeling like we shouldnt be lynching him in case im offbase for some reason before i start up a wagon and drive it over him?

[Gorkington]

if the people pushing for a srceen lynch could make a case with points as to why hes scum other than "lol he is" then that would probably help too.
if someone's done that already then apologies (but im pretty sure nobody has)

p-edit: i think side-by-siding a greyTowngame vs a greyScumgame with here would make the tone argument irrelevant.

[Gorkington]

it gives good context for whether the things people are doing make sense and in some cases makes it really obvious when someone is scum.

i really think townGrey spends more time shaking specific people by the shoulders to tell them how dumb they are for townreading hopkirk and/or not pushing hopkirk.
the amount of time hes just been soapboxing him being scum without actually accomplishing much in doing so doesnt really strike me as genuine and i also think his reads are generally less static as town.
his general stancing on maria/centipede stuff has been incredibly safe and he more or less tried to play outside of that entire situation.

this isnt meant to be a fully fledged case btw.
this is just where my head is currently at on him.

p-edit: heh.
okay, hopefully i have enough time during lunch to do the things i want to do.

[Gorkington]

but there's also tailoring your meta to fit a specific narrative

i think theres a decent chance that grey is doing exactly this with the way hes pushing hopkirk.
but i'll dig more into that with an isodive.

[Gorkington]

i definitely feel like it follows a trend of showy "this person is scum why can no one else see it" posts that arent doing the kind of work i would expect from a townGrey who wants to take control of the game to get the people he thinks are scum lynched.

i also think hes kind of misrepping tchill there, as just saying "why are people voting me?" really isnt the same as "why are people voting me and not other people who are doing the same thing as me?"

on a less fun note, im realizing that grey had a little more trajectory this game than i remembered so that point is kind of out the window.

[Gorkington]

ooooo heres a fun bit:

I recommend stopping this, because I have some respect for both Elli's reads and Elli's theater

You're hilarious.

But sorry, this Maria wagon is not my jam.

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

So I'm left between picking on Tchill or Maria. I don't even feel this is very hard.

Vote: Tchill

Not too opposed to MariaR, wouldn't vote Panopticon if you paid me after those fucking votes.

MariaR(7) ~ Centipede Syndrome(140), Gorkington(135), CheekyTeeky(93), Creature(148), Panopticon(93), Tchill13(70), Brian Skies(79)

these are the maria votes.
tchill is the only stated scumread that i can see that grey is pushing at around that time and hes not even committed to it.
he jumps around onto like 3-4 people at around this time.

grey has respect for elli's reads but has no inclination to actually follow through when he reveals his biggest scumread? when hes not really outwardly scumreading the wagon?
and theres no specific diving into maria's ISO to indicate why at any point and he even goes so far as to say that hes unopposed to voting her later (but also doesnt).

this is the posting from maria in between his "nope not okay with this" stance on mariawagon vs his "i am unopposed but hey look heres a tchill vote":

If you're going to listen to Eli do it tomorrow I'm too important to die yet can't believe I have to stop lurking for this
The gunner can shoot me all you like but 1 day is ,100% needed

Judging on other games and anti claim any anti claim should be shot based otherwise the game isn't fum. I can claim if we want to risk it but hey if something happens just strong me up

I was lurking on purpose
Dying right now for me is really bad rn but if I have to waste mafia resources to d it I will

Town as of rn but chara needs to post more
I don't think scum them tries to ml me unless there scared of me reading chara but I don't think Eli respects me enough to do that.
Aka town
Pedit fair

i dont really see what in here would change his mind from maria which wouldnt have changed from other things that maria had done previously.

[Gorkington]

does he do this a lot in general?

would need to dive games with that in mind to give you a definitive answer, but i think grey is the sort of player who would call out people doing things he disagrees with that he thinks are town, as town.

[Gorkington]

my time's up, sorry thor.
will see if i have time to look at srceen tonight before my class.

[Gorkington]

is elli planning to check in at all before end of day?

[Gorkington]

im sorry we're not seeing eye to eye on panoptic spiff :/
i do think most of the rest of our reads are really really close though

[Gorkington]

grey can you talk about what happened with your progression with maria/why you were initially so against the wagon and then considering voting for it?

[Gorkington]

grey can you talk about what happened with your progression with maria/why you were initially so against the wagon and then considering voting for it?

I thought I was pretty clear. MariaR was scummy, but I'm not going to vote for a wagon when Elli shows up and goes "I have some stupid ass meta tell that I won't be explaining." That's not a way to play mafia, it's just fuckwittery.

so, you trust elli to read people correctly, but you didnt want to follow him out of principle of him not going into detail on it?
if you thought maria was scummy on top of what he was saying, isnt that kind of petty/anti wincon? especially to say that you were actively against voting the wagon initially?

[Gorkington]

is there a reason that youre trying to convince hopkirk that hes obviously scum instead of the rest of us?

[Gorkington]

like, i get im being smarmy here, but you can probably be more productive here than just pointing at hopkirk and saying "this is scum", and instead try to make something thats palatable for the rest of the game if youre town here and you actually feel confident about hopkirk being scum?

[Gorkington]

@grey

:
i) how often do you get mislynched in general?
ii) whats the difference between me getting mad at the people pushing me and hopkirk getting mad at the people pushing him?

[Gorkington]

can you give me 2-3 games where youve been mislynched on d1 before?

[Gorkington]

lol.
grey knows what games hes talking about better than i do. if he has a track record of getting lynched d1, id like to take a look at them and i doubt its that much effort for him to recall examples.
but okay chick lets make the most pointlessly aggressive post deriding someone trying to figure shit out.

[Gorkington]

hey guys im chickadee and my idea of contributing to the gamestate is shitting on it actively.
:V

[Gorkington]

scum i guess? i havent really looked into anything comprehensive on him

[Gorkington]

ooooo heres a fun bit:

I recommend stopping this, because I have some respect for both Elli's reads and Elli's theater

You're hilarious.

But sorry, this Maria wagon is not my jam.

The Panopticon wagon is so obviously scumdriven it hurts me.

So I'm left between picking on Tchill or Maria. I don't even feel this is very hard.

Vote: Tchill

Not too opposed to MariaR, wouldn't vote Panopticon if you paid me after those fucking votes.

MariaR(7) ~ Centipede Syndrome(140), Gorkington(135), CheekyTeeky(93), Creature(148), Panopticon(93), Tchill13(70), Brian Skies(79)

these are the maria votes.
tchill is the only stated scumread that i can see that grey is pushing at around that time and hes not even committed to it.
he jumps around onto like 3-4 people at around this time.

grey has respect for elli's reads but has no inclination to actually follow through when he reveals his biggest scumread? when hes not really outwardly scumreading the wagon?
and theres no specific diving into maria's ISO to indicate why at any point and he even goes so far as to say that hes unopposed to voting her later (but also doesnt).

this is the posting from maria in between his "nope not okay with this" stance on mariawagon vs his "i am unopposed but hey look heres a tchill vote":

If you're going to listen to Eli do it tomorrow I'm too important to die yet can't believe I have to stop lurking for this
The gunner can shoot me all you like but 1 day is ,100% needed

Judging on other games and anti claim any anti claim should be shot based otherwise the game isn't fum. I can claim if we want to risk it but hey if something happens just strong me up

I was lurking on purpose
Dying right now for me is really bad rn but if I have to waste mafia resources to d it I will

Town as of rn but chara needs to post more
I don't think scum them tries to ml me unless there scared of me reading chara but I don't think Eli respects me enough to do that.
Aka town
Pedit fair

i dont really see what in here would change his mind from maria which wouldnt have changed from other things that maria had done previously.

does this not mean anything to you thor?
i think on the face of it, the progression here looks skeevy and the explanation that grey's given doesnt make me feel much better about it.

im planning on throwing effort at srceen during my lunch in 1.5 hours. i promises

[Gorkington]

Where does the disrespect towards Elli's read enter in?

i feel like youre not understanding the point of what im trying to say here if you think im saying that grey was disrespecting his read?
[and if you really want to get semantic here, grey did in fact try to discredit elli's reads in general in a post before the quoted ones]

2011 is saying "I'm disagreeing with the read"
2438 is saying he's softly okay with the read but finds Tchill scummier.

??????
how is this something that youre just brushing off? especially when theres literally nothing to indicate why he should have changed his read there?
am i misunderstanding some portion of your assessment of the transition? because i frankly have no idea how youre handwaving it.

i also think its super fucking lame to just say that im voting grey because hes abrasive.
if anything im less inclined to push people who are abrasive because i dont want to deal with the blowback that usually comes with pushing them.

i think hes scum because
i) the maria read transition is skeevy to me
ii) his tone is really off this game
iii) i dont really believe his pushes and i think townhim puts more effort into getting people to sheep him on lynching people he thinks are scum instead of soapboxing

i dont really feel like you disagree with the second point either, so im kind of confused as to why youre trying so hard to dismantle the grey wagon

[Gorkington]

Your case;
i) It's barely a transition in my opinion.
ii) I already admitted to agreeing with that a few posts ago - the issue is it's not his scum tone, is it?
iii) Grey always soapboxes, it's just a question of how effective it is. I will admit I tend to give this a pass due somewhat to the nature of early game Larges, and also to the specific nature of a solid portion of the playerbase in this game and how they're pushing cases.

ii) how would you describe his scum tone? how old is your reference point?
iii) i feel like townGrey spends less time outwardly soapboxing and spends more time directing his soapboxing at specific people he wants to do things.
the former feels more like an attempt to fake generating content where the latter would feel more like an attempt to actually get someone he thinks is scum lynched.
i really do not get the impression that he actually wanted to seriously accomplish the task of lynching hopkirk as its more useful to keep a player that cant rally the playerbase that you can use as a content generating punching bag.

p-edit: spiff is scum.

[Gorkington]

omg

[Gorkington]

haha chara is getting bullied into being productive haha

The snarky answer is 'go look at his ISO' (which actually I think is a pretty valid answer).
But for my end I would say that he is playing in an obstructionist way

while claiming he is doing the opposite

yet refusing to back up said claims.
He's basically blustering while doing nothing.
Compare/contrast with Grey - who blusters while actively doing the things he's claiming he's doing.

so basically its like
i) his iso sucks - okay this is applicable for a few people though?
ii) can you pull where youre seeing the bolded?
besides the bolded, what gives you the impression that hes being scummy vs antitown here? can you throw specifics up?
iii) kind of confused why youre contrasting srceen with someone youve admitted youre not townreading.

p-edit: you dont want to read my posts?
what the fuck man

[Gorkington]

on a totally unrelated note, i could get behind an ausuka murderwagon.
getting some pretty good lurkerscum vibes there.

[Gorkington]

im not continuing to argue my first point because it ultimately comes down to us feeling differing levels of significance in him having switched his read there. you think its meaningless because its barely a transition and i think its meaningful because i dont think townGrey would transition his read at all in that situation.
is there really a valuable discussion to be had here?
its kind of silly that youre phrasing it as me ducking it. like, thats really the first thing that comes to mind for you there rather than just "hes not interested in talking about this point anymore"?

Like the difference of being pissed at something, vs. being pissed at the world - make sense? How would you describe his scum tone and your issues with his tone?

im not as familiar with his scum meta.
it just isnt lining up with my expectations of his town meta.

i)I probably would be fine lynching those people too. I don't get your point, you appear to be agreeing his iso is scummy and terrible here.

im not overly enthused by the idea of lynching someone just because theyre playing like shit?

"Besides your case, what's your case" is your next question. Ya got me, if I ignore my case I don't have a case. I'm sure I could probably ISO him and come up with something nattery, because as you're clearly aware his ISO is garbage - but I'm presenting what I see as the most damning issue to discuss - so let's discuss that. If your best defense is "maybe he's just super anti-town" then, whatever. i could say that about Grey and it would be just as functional - the issue is the case and the points raised.

i mean, the bolded is referring to "where is he claiming that hes not being obstructionist" because i didnt see it.
and the question about the non-bolded was wondering whether you were finding the obstructionism itself scummy and if so why?
if the two points are meant to be directly linked together exclusively then thats the only answer i needed.

will try to read the back-and-forth tonight when im not at work.

[Gorkington]

ill deadline vote srceen i guess!
i hope grey is scum so i can get to be vindictive!

[Gorkington]

You're the one who started it and got angered that I was handwaving it, so to a certain extent when I pointed out that it was barely a shift of his viewpoint, yeah, I kinda expected the conversation to continue.
I would think this would be a fairly subjective change - either he went from one view to a distant view, or he went between two fairly close views.
I've explained why i see them as close - can you explain why you see them as distant?

didnt say i saw it as distant in that post?
i said that i didnt think grey would change his read at all based on what had happened.
i dont really think either of us are going to change our minds about this so i dont think its productive to try to engage on this?

Po-tay-to/po-tah-to.

ducking has a pretty clear connotation of scumminess where the other doesnt.

What is the expectation and how much strength do you place on your meta awareness of him?

i feel like ive iterated through this so many times already q.q
you keep saying "oh hes not being effective so what?" but that isnt my point. it doesnt look like hes TRYING to be effective and thats the issue im having.
that issue i would rate like a 6/10 level of confidence, but i generally find discrepancies like that really likely to be scumgame vs towngame discrepancies.

Okay?
Wasn't arguing that we should.

im not overly sure what we were talking about then.
because i assumed that we were talking about his ISO being shit, ie: that if hes town or scum, hes playing pretty garbage.

read the interactions a bit.
really dont know why hes ignoring you regardless of what his alignment is, but im not really interested in driving the gamestate at this point so you get my vote at deadline if nobody pushes for a grey lynch. yay

[Gorkington]

VOTE: srceen
yay

[Gorkington]

I wonder how Maria died?

realistically this is probably exactly what scum fakeclaims.

kind of think town says they can conftown themselves instead of hardclaiming the shot.

reads like fishing?

[Gorkington]

also think he would be madder/telling people to stop voting him if he were actually a dayvig, saying that he can dayvig someone tomorrow to prove himself.

p-edit: what the hell is with the soft then? lol?

[Gorkington]

alright the responsibility of srceen being lynched is entirely on him if he is town now!!!
im free from feeling responsible for anything yay!!!

[Gorkington]

"i really dont want to die"
"lol whatever kill me i didnt want to play anyways"

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DI EDIEIEIEIEDIEI

[Gorkington]

"i really dont want to die"
"lol whatever kill me i didnt want to play anyways"

DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DIE DI EDIEIEIEIEDIEI

I see Policy Lynches make you hard.

i mean, the differences in attitude dont feel real to me, so not really a policy lynch? im just satisfied feeling absolved from the possibility of being wrong if i am wrong at this point.

Wtf...Srceen why would you dayvig Maria who was at L-1ish, and who you weren't even scum reading? Why wouldn't you shoot TChill?

you can go in the scumpile though.

[Gorkington]

if you didnt want to die
you could claim -

instead youre feigning disinterest in playing the game.

[Gorkington]

srceen why did you shoot maria

[Gorkington]

really reads to me like srceen is intentionally stalling with his answers/responses to things.

[Gorkington]

You can add yourself to the list with Gork for 'people who say they'll look at the case but are lying and can't admit it'

read the interactions a bit.
really dont know why hes ignoring you regardless of what his alignment is, but im not really interested in driving the gamestate at this point so you get my vote at deadline if nobody pushes for a grey lynch. yay

i really dont get why youre busting my balls
when im literally on the wagon with you
supporting it right now
and have tried my best to read things during a fucking busy week.

im sure you can imagine what i want to tell you to do right now.

[Gorkington]

dun dun dunnnn

[Gorkington]

im jesus apparently

[Gorkington]

nero i need to borrow your avatar

[Gorkington]

oh and while im here

vote: cheeky

[Gorkington]

Wtf...Srceen why would you dayvig Maria who was at L-1ish, and who you weren't even scum reading? Why wouldn't you shoot TChill?

this looks fake

+

i dont see why cheeky changes her vote to grey.
doesnt really make sense in terms of what she was saying at around that time.

[Gorkington]

Eww. I LOVE women wrestling

0/10

[Gorkington]

It really felt a lot like the last time I 1v1'd Quick which happened the last time I played with him and I got all the same feelings out of his posts.

why did you 1v1 quick if you knew that youd done it in the past
and if you felt this way about his posts why did you continue to push him so aggressively?
you stated that your switch on him came from you sheeping tor so this seems kind of skeevy!

beeboy and cheeky if you are town you have a duty to respond to the wagons on you in an obviously town manner so we can get a full sweep by end of D3.
capiche?
cool.

spiff.
start doing things again.
i didnt come back from the dead so that you could FUCK AROUND.

i'll probably do more actual things when this week of hell is over.
in the meantime:

BEEBOY DO THINGS BY THE TIME I GET BACK OR I WILL SEE TO IT THAT YOUR BEEBOY BEEBODY IS CRUSHED INTO BEEDUST.

[Gorkington]

i think we disagreed on greyICE and panopticon.
i think both of them are still kind of weird but everyone is probably going to act weird after 3 scum flip by day two.

[Gorkington]

you have multiple balls.

[Gorkington]

this game isnt playing like multiball.
or at least groupscum multiball.

[Gorkington]

<<<<There are no third parties in this game >>>>

@nsg is this mod confirmed or is this just a message that was sent to the game?

[Gorkington]

Gork died and came back
He is our messiah

[Gorkington]

i think im leaning towards all of beeboy/cheeky/ap being bad wagon options right now.

brian should put together a hopkirk case and hit people in the face with it if hes really that confident that hopkirk is flipping scum.

kind of feel like greyice and panopticon need to get revisited.

spiff. if you havent thrown any kind of effort at this game by this weekend im going to assume youre lurking on purpose.

[Gorkington]

spiff why did you think you should be considered town because of what happened at the end of d1?
i get why you thought so for bins, but its kind of weird to lump yourself in with her when you didnt really hardpush for srceen in the same kind of way?

[Gorkington]

do you feel like you should be at the same level as bins though when she was actively casing and pushing and poking people to vote for him?

[Gorkington]

like, the closest thing you have to that is telling tchill to hammer and by then no lynch/srceen was a foregone conclusion

[Gorkington]

why the fuck am i being forced to play mafia by fate itself

[Gorkington]

ok ill start

[Gorkington]

kind of feel like beeboy would have claimed the other shot if he were actually the gunner?

[Gorkington]

hm
what a dilemma

[Gorkington]

oh its probably less likely to be a fakeclaim tbh.
scum would be worried about getting insta-shot given a lack of shot today
and scum doesnt know if town for sure wouldnt have multiple dayvigshots.

[Gorkington]

okay so first word
is it a person place or thing?

how many syllables?

[Gorkington]

youre a fresh replacement
go isodive brian skies/greyice/hopkirk/brig/cheeky and decide for yourself.

[Gorkington]

because youre not a townread

[Gorkington]

hopefully next time i play with elli i wont have to carry him so hard.