Gunner Mafia [Endgame]

[Thor665]

VOTE: Hopkirk

Baaah.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Hopkirk

Baaah.

Can you tell me three people you town read, excepting myself?

I obviously don't town read you because I'm voting you

I don't have three town reads.
I don't have one.
What of it?

[Thor665]

Page 13.
Toranaga and Quick can be town.
Still liking my sheeped vote on Hopkirk.

[Thor665]

beeboy can be town also.

[Thor665]

@Thor,

Tell me something I don't know.

Flying snakes have been observed traveling up to 330 feet in the air, and changing direction mid flight.
Yeah, freaks me the hell out too.

Who do you SR?

Well, again, I have a vote in play, so...
I don't have any scum reads strong enough to want to yell about them.
There are a lot of slots I'd be happy to lynch though.

thor it's a large are you sure you're not just random.org'ing your reads kappa keepo

I am absolutely certain.
Why do you think I am?

[Thor665]

I am not known for AtE. But explain.

The “poor me” I shouldn’t be here. Probably getting lynched anyway. That’s AtE

What makes you see that as scum intentioned considering he did it after the wagon on him was losing steam?

[Thor665]

I am not known for AtE. But explain.

The “poor me” I shouldn’t be here. Probably getting lynched anyway. That’s AtE

What makes you see that as scum intentioned considering he did it after the wagon on him was losing steam?

Because when I read it I thought to myself “Smurf that. Don’t try to make me feel bad for voting you”. That seems like scum to me.

So he wrote something that made you think maybe you should feel bad for yourself, so, by definition he's scum?
That doesn't make sense.
His wagon was already dying - why would he fake AtE at that stage?
And if it's not fake, then it's real, and is NAI.
So...?

[Thor665]

@Tor - I am not getting your town lean on either Screen or Hopkirk.
The Hopkirk one I disagree with, but at least understand where you're coming from.
What's up with the Screen one though?

[Thor665]

hopkirk is a weak townlean, can go eitehr way etc. would not lynch rn.

I'd lynch him on a happy lark right now.
He is not towning.

do you agree with my wolf reads?

That would be your Auska/Grey/Centipede?

I agree on Centipede, that slot looks very iffy.
I skipped the first few pages so am missing some of the context for your Auska/Grey reads.
The Auska one, as described, makes sense, I don't see it as outside Auska townplay, but it also seems a perfectly reasonable idea to lynch her over. I'd help lynch her.
The Grey one seems a stretch - I don't even get how you're calling the 1st post scummy. If I squint I'd argue it's scumhunting, but it mostly looks like null nothingness.

thor, that post you quoted is awful from screen tbh. as cheeky said though, he is always someone people wolfread, and I think for making posts like these that might be NAI for him.

that goddamn avatar can't help either.

His avatar is clearly a poor choice on the lynchability spectrum.
His argument on Quick started paper thin and is going micron thin for me at this stage because, if he's town, he's clearly not engaging beyond surface level tells.
If you say that's super normal for him...well, I'd say 'name me who else on the Quick wagon you'd like to lynch, because I'm excited in that idea'.
But I see a lot of scum motivation in what he's doing and not much town.

[Thor665]

I think Panopticon looks p. bad and no one is talking about them

Get a wagon going on him and I'd back it.
I'd actually kind of like to see you off Brian and onto Hopkirk, personally, but Panopticon looks more interesting than Brian as a wagon to me also, which makes me wonder why you're spinning your wheels there.
I can't even recall the last point anyone really advanced much on him - though I'll admit 10 pages back only takes us to yesterday evening, but still

Refresh your stale read or move?

[Thor665]

VOTE: quick

Another naked vote.

I'd like to know what the reasoning was for this vote, thanks.

@Thor, Remember how I caught you with that little thing where you were talking to Town about how I was Scum without explicitly SRing me? I sorta feel this is the same type of thing... Screen doesn't give his reasons for SRing me until he accuses me of AtE.

Get a wagon going on him and I'd back it.I'd actually kind of like to see you off Brian and onto Hopkirk, personally, but Panopticon looks more interesting than Brian as a wagon to me also, which makes me wonder why you're spinning your wheels there.I can't even recall the last point anyone really advanced much on him - though I'll admit 10 pages back only takes us to yesterday evening, but still

Refresh your stale read or move?

My read's not stale Brian is still scummy

Is he though?
The best case I could describe on him is the odd reaction to Auska.
From what I've read of analysis of her posts and his posts at the time...I actually agree that his reaction was generally warranted.

Now, I can see you still thinking that's scummy, but...

1. Has he done nothing else worth voting over since?
2. Why aren't you advocating for him if you believe in the vote strong enough to park on it while the rest of the game is clearly ignoring him as an option now (and, indeed, some are starting to town sort him while you sit there silently)
3. You really have no *stronger* scum read on anyone else for any reason? (<--this is the part making me curl my toes at your play slightly)

Whassup?
I want to put you in a town sort - why you making it hard?

[Thor665]

Whiffed that post...still back on page 35, but since for every page I read another pops up, might as well just break up this post.

from above - @Quick - basically you're just arguing that not explaining reads is scummy. I'll agree with that. Indeed, I've already said I scumread the slot. What point are you trying to advance here? I already town read you and scumread him, so...?

i actually don't mind being lynched if I'm sheeped unconditionally after and d1 lasts 75 pages or so.
for people who don't know I'd recomend them search around for certain things about me lel

Please don't waste time with AtE.
You've been called out on doing spit - you are half agreeing with it.
Either up your apparent activity, or accept that this is a scumtell you'll absorb repeatedly.
I don't like the yucky feel of the bargain toss out.

[Thor665]

Why Hop scum? I assume it's serious now.

It's been serious for some time now.
You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.
That reads scum.

Panop's read list did not fill me with town vibes for the slot, it was so different from my reads either I have to be a dunderhead, or Panop has motivations.
I don't accept that I'm a dunderhead because my mommy tells me I'm special.
So...

{Creature, quick, hopkirk, nero, beeboy}

Why do you townread Hopkirk?

I'm joyfully ignoring panop and other people who do nothing but complain that quick exists and how he plays

I'd be willing to wager fair money that at least one scumboi is using that as an excuse to do Smurf-all right now.
Which, of course, is actually an argument that Quick *should* adjust his style
But, yeah, I don't get it, the whole game is spammy, Quick is the biggest poster but not by that much, I've been in far worse situations by far, this seems rather normal - especially in a game advertised for wanting activity.
So, yeah, some of the complaints are going to be forced and faked.

[Thor665]

Is this toward me?

Not at all, but I'll field your answers too.

1: Idk. I’m 10-ish pages behind.
2: I did ask for their lynch. It’s not my style to make elaborate cases. I can’t do that. I see weird Smurf that pings me and I go vote it.
3: Not really. Brian pinged me earlier but I don’t remember why. I would have to iso.

So you're basically running off a ping you can't even describe when directly asked.

Dude, I am a strong advocate of 1 sentence cases, and even in my world this is weaksauce.
What do you think you're doing to help town wincon?
I'm pretty sure the reality answer is: nothing.
I can easily describe how your play aids scum wincon.
Planning to adjust this, or do you consider your style awesome as is?

Ok.
If people are town reading quick, what I’m I doing wrong? What is I don’t see?

Kind of funny in relation to your other post I'm quoting here

My quick (pun intended) answer would be this - what is he doing that's advancing scum wincon exactly?
The "scum case" on him basically sums up as 'he's posting gak to bog town down" (and a simple playstyle check will tell you this is NAI) and "he's dropping intentional fake town slips" to which my rebuttal is - he's not actually trying to bank on them in any meaningful way, and, frankly, I kinda doubt scum him would bother - can you show me a game where he did that as scum? I bet the answer is no.

That's the case on him.
The case for him being town is he's here, he's active, he's rocking the boat, and, within the context of how he plays, he appears to be trying to gamesolve.
Which is more than I can say for easily six other players.
So EVEN IF you want to call him scum - the real question is why aren't those six other lurksacks opportunistic voters MORE scummy to you?

And that's a decent reason to scumread you, frankly.

have you read or are you aware of inventions mafia

I'll preface this with "I'm shockingly impressed Quick remembered a game from 2016"
But, as far as I'm aware I didn't play in Invention Mafia, and I basically never read a game that I don't play in.
So I would go with "no".

Now that we've wasted time - would you like to just fast forward to the meta point you're about to make? Save me extra time and provide a relevant link to a post/ISO in question when you do. Because that will be my immediate follow up question if you present meta. Thanks!

I think every vote on Quick is because people are tired of him generating almost 8 pages of "content" in a game that's less than two days old. I know between him and Torantaga I'm damn close to replacing out because this Smurf is dreadful to read, and I'm coming close to supporting a policy lynch.

It is blatantly obviously their playstyle.
If this isn't sabre rattling you should replace out now - they're obviously not going to change and the game will take 2-3 game days to start slowing and you know it.
If it's sabre rattling, I don't get the point.

[Thor665]

Admittedly self centric, but It's painfully obvious there's a potential wagon hanging over me right now and I get the feeling Thor's waiting for it.

I'm waiting for a wagon that had very minor support and that I've been slowly pushing all the while softly gaining it town support by making people notice that you're kinda scummy?
Yeah, that's true.
Pretty sure it's called good wagon building play.

His early townreads (Torn/Quick/BB) don't add anything since they're common.
His defence of Quick was after the quick wagon played its course.
His scum leans on me/Screen don't add anything.

What did you expect/want my reads to add outside of me stating my reads?

-only gives reads on people Torn asked about and adds utterly nothing to any of the reads.

Are you complaining that I answered a question about reads, or complaining that I didn't volunteer more?
The former is silly.
The latter is only slightly less silly, because you could always ask me for reads yourself if you think it's an issue and *then* call me out if I don't give them.

-Slight reasoning given on Screen but doesn't actually move forward to vote screen. Could have potentially moved things forward but hung on me (non wagon that could bloom) instead for unclear reasons.

What do you think the reasons are, since you're implying it's scummy?

1080- An iffy reasoning to not vote Brian that doesn't really say anything about

Brian

You're right, it said something about *Thor*.

I'll admit I don't know his town meta, but it feels like he's added nothing and he's waiting for something. I don't really say any original thought/effort/proactiveness there.

I find the idea I haven't advanced original thoughts to be laughable and easily disproved - that said, presuming we accept this as true - why is my brand of lack of originality different and more questionable than other brands?
Because I feel like the legit answer is 'Because Thor is voting me" which is...silly.

[Thor665]

Thor do you scum read Hopkirk? 1157 feels like you're talking to town.

I'm spending the entire post mocking him and denigrating his case on me.
If that's a town/town conversation to you then it's a town/town conversation - it is what it is and I said what I said.
I do scum read him - I'm voting him don't'cha know.

[Thor665]

Thor do you scum read Hopkirk? 1157 feels like you're talking to town.

I'm spending the entire post mocking him and denigrating his case on me.
If that's a town/town conversation to you then it's a town/town conversation - it is what it is and I said what I said.
I do scum read him - I'm voting him don't'cha know.

is there any reason you are not voting tchill right now? check his ISO please

Tchill wagon is an interesting wagon on a primarily null slot.
I'm not trying to rip it down, don't expect me to pretend it's more than it is though.

Pedit - his last defense posts here are worthy of a bit more meat to the fire though, so now you have that going for you.

@thor, you’re full of Smurf.

Your rebuttal suggests I'm actually being quite accurate.
So...

Why are you phrasing his actions as silly instead of scummy? Clearly you don't think silly and scummy are the same thing looking at your srceenplay and Quick reads.

I think Quick is town and srceenplay is scum, so am suspicious you're mixing up my reads there somewhat.

I don't actually find his attack post particularly scummy outside of being full of bad logic, which is more a silly tell than a scumtell.
Do you find his post I'm mocking to be scummy?
I don't - it could easily just be bad town being paranoid.
The rest of his iso is pretty suspect though, and his inability to move past an exceedingly minor push on him is inherently scummy regardless of how articulate his issue with my push is or is not.

VOTE: Hopkirk

Thor's never been wrong.

-ObserVed

I think your slot is scummy too.

I don't know how to feel about wagons growing and then disappearing this quickly. Can town please be more town and stop jumping around like crazy and wait to even get a proper reaction, thx.

Bins can be town just for this post.

[Thor665]

@Srceenplay - So you ask for a town read explanation on someone.
Get it.
Then just start screaming that the person offering the read is full of Smurf over and over instead of debating the read.
I don't get you.
Are you five or something?
Because then it would make sense.

Otherwise - what was the point exactly?

I think Quick is town and srceenplay is scum, so am suspicious you're mixing up my reads there somewhat.

Yes I was pointing out that being silly isn't AI from your pushes.

I don't actually find his attack post particularly scummy outside of being full of bad logic, which is more a silly tell than a scumtell.
Do you find his post I'm mocking to be scummy?

No I don't find him that scummy, and don't understand mocking someone as a way to get an AI response. The way you've approached him reminds me of how you belittled my thoughts and spoke to me as town when we were SvT. Though the way you're taking interacting with me seriously eases that paranoia somewhat.

I don't - it could easily just be bad town being paranoid.
The rest of his iso is pretty suspect though, and his inability to move past an exceedingly minor push on him is inherently scummy regardless of how articulate his issue with my push is or is not.

I think you're being stubborn and there's better slots to push.

Comments in purple.

1. Sure? Never disagreed.
2. I'm pretty sure people would claim I belittle and mock regardless of alignment. The reality is I joke, and it comes across highly superior for reasons I haven't quite figured out how to disable.
3. Are there? It's not like anyone is actually really pushing his slot, and frankly I'm the only one obligating Srceenplay to any interaction. If I thought town could hold onto a wagon for five seconds I'd move, but frankly during my catchup this morning I missed something like two flashwagons before even people had responded to or analyzed them - defeating the entire point of bothering.

People should come join me on my wagon, and come into it with the concept that you'll sit there for at least 24 hours or something.

Who do you think i should be better spending my time pressuring exactly? I can't even tell who you're pressuring unless it's me - and that's a waste of my time to join you on, so...?

[Thor665]

It's not shade to suggest you being unable to describe a read as not good for town or town play.
It's objective fact.

DO you disagree?
Do you think you're helping town wincon right now?

[Thor665]

Because you're calling it BS...but...it's not.

[Thor665]

So EVEN IF you want to call him scum - the real question is why aren't those six other lurksacks opportunistic voters MORE scummy to you?

This is my other "shade" on you.
And, buddy, it's a giant leafy shade tree.
Want to step out from under it and not just whine BS as a defense? Maybe take me up on the challenge or analyze your own views?

[Thor665]

I gave my read.
You are trying to say I didn’t.

That's not true - what I said was you couldn't describe it. Which IS true.

You are trying to call my playstlye anti town. That’s like saying I don’t deserve to be playing this game.
Am I awesome and able to be a town leader. No. And I don’t try because that’s not what I do. Iirc you called it playstyle as well and now you call it scumy.

What I called scummy was your inability to explain how a theoretical six worse players were less scummy than your current top scumspect.
That you didn't take me up on the challenge shows I'm right that you couldn't.
That it offends you suggests I have a point that it's weak play.
I'm sorry that offends you - but since it appears to be true, and all I'm saying is that it's not good for town if you're town (which is also objectively true) why are you busting my balls instead of trying to explain your reads better?

Your town read didn’t sit well either.

The case for him being town is he's here, he's

active

, he's

rocking the boat

, and, within the context of how he plays, he

appears to be trying to gamesolve

.
Which is more than I can say for easily six other players.
So EVEN IF you want to call him scum - the real question is why aren't those six other lurksacks opportunistic voters MORE scummy to you?

You describe what scum would be trying to do and the describe activity as scumy when it should be nai unless you have meta on someone that says otherwise.

I actually describe activity as townish, and suggest that lurking is scummy - the opposite of what you think I'm saying. Go look at my words again.
Does this realization change your attitude towards my read?

I also disagree that scum tend to be active, be rocking the boat, and be trying to gamesolve.
If you think that's what scum do what do you think town do?

Who do you think i should be better spending my time pressuring exactly? I can't even tell who you're pressuring unless it's me - and that's a waste of my time to join you on, so...?

Not Hopkirk.
Not my problem try reading my posts. Point taken about wagon jumping though...still I like my style ^^

That's silly and illogical. It IS your problem if you're asking me to do something other than what I'm doing but have no actual drive to explain what else I should do.
I clearly think I'm doing okay with what I'm doing, so I have no desire to random change based on nothing.

That justification seems very weak. What about the post is "super townie"?

it looks genuinely uninformed. like, I don't see someone who knows every alignment writing that.

All he's doing in that post is making a case on me.
How does that look genuinely uninformed?

[Thor665]

I’m saying I think I already did

Could you quote it for me?

My point was you are using activity as AI. I meant to say lack of activity you are saying is scumy. You describe what scum should be trying to do as AI. You are looking at surface level Smurf and trying to make something out of it. That’s fake. You find scum from lies or subconscious slips. The later is what I like.

What is the lie or subconscious slip you've caught anyone doing so far?
You're changing your vote tome, what is the lie or slip I did?

no it doesn’t change my attitude.
I’m not saying “scum are active”. Scum can be active and inactive. Town can be active and inactive. NAI. Trying to pass it as scum hunting is fake.
I already said what town should do.

There are assuredly players who will openly self admit that their activity changes with alignment.
I'll note in this game people are discussing stuff about Creature in that vein - does that not affect your thoughts on the tell? Or is your presumption people who think this and self meta as it are all fooling themselves?

[Thor665]

@Srceenplay - It also just occurred to me that you're raging at me for "surface tells" of activity.
Your best explained read is on Quick - and is that he's doing AtE and when I asked you how the AtE benefited his scum plan you couldn't/chose not to answer.

That's your deep level analysis on him?
Your Brian read is a ping.
All of your other reads are less explained than that.

I'm fine with surface level reads, I think they work great. I respect deep reads, I think they also work.
But you raging on me for being too surface when that's your entire case presentation feels fake to me. There definitely feels like a double standard happening here, especially since you're kind of straw manning my Quick read into activity (or at least claiming analysis of scumhunting equates to a shallow activity read - which I would disagree with).

[Thor665]

Okay, I understand that's the post.
Can you explain the case/deeper read?

[Thor665]

That also wasn't Brain, but, whatever.

[Thor665]

Gork can be town now.

Tor and Grey - unless one of you is advancing this debate as a scum read on the other, I personally vote for letting it go.

[Thor665]

i dont really understand why youd keep escalating this by referring to him as a potato still.
probably better to just let this go and focus on other things?

it is better to let it go and take the high road, sure. easier said than done when the guy keeps insulting me at every opportunity, no? he is a potato player after all. I'm not even lying...

Two to tango

What do you make of Srceenplay's recent back and forth with me?
He's dancing a beautifully hard to read line between looking like dense town or looking like scum trying to cover his BS with aggro, and I'm having a hard time parsing it.
I'm currently leaning him getting offended as a town tell - do you see the meat there I'm seeing, or do you disagree and think he's bamboozling me?

[Thor665]

@Grey - I'd actually love your take on the question I asked Toranaga above also about Srceenplay.

[Thor665]

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative.

You don't think that him getting legit pissed about me mocking the entire concept of his town game as performed here is alignment indicative?
Why would he get legit pissed if he was scum?

[Thor665]

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

1. And yet you agree a wagon energy is building on you. So...
2. Being reactive and not offering new things are two different issues entirely, and you're basically trying to kind of claim both now. I disagree, there are many points I instigated, and also many new ideas I have presented.
3. I'm sorry you're scum and being reactive and scummy or are town with a very strange and narrow view of the game.

[Thor665]

given the nature of Thor's push, I would say it's pretty NAI.

Why is that?

As they say, NAI. You pissed him off, he got pissed off. That's genuine. It's also not alignment indicative.

You don't think that him getting legit pissed about me mocking the entire concept of his town game as performed here is alignment indicative?
Why would he get legit pissed if he was scum?

1) I wish you'd respond to the entire post, this chopping posts to bits and responding to a small part makes me not want to talk to you
2) Yes, responding angrily to mockery is NAI. It should not be hard to figure out why.

1. The rest of your post was you saying you generically scum read the slot (clearly I do also - so...what, was I supposed to just say that?)and then saying what you would do if you had a Vig on the slot (which was really just a way of restating that you generically scum read him). What conversation/feedback were you looking for on those points?

2. You don't think the nature of what is being mocked can effect the honesty of the reply? I know when people say 'Thor you're better than this' when I'm playing scum my internal response is 'yeah, but I'm scum' not 'damn you for questioning my town game!' Now, in public I try to react the same - but that's the point, yeah? One is honest and one is flim flam.

@Thor, Why was Gork Town for that post?

Which post?

I'm putting him in town for an ongoing series of posts that feel both honest and town minded.

@Toranaga - I asked you a question about Srceenplay, would still like you to field it.

@Srceenplay - I asked you to showcase the deep scumhunting you do. Please help me learn your scumhunting skills by explaining what you see on Quick a bit, I'm stuck on the surface.

[Thor665]

-Good wagon building involves actually pushing the wagon/me. You've been voteparking without generating content that makes a wagon form.
-On 1136: given my vote justification is very clearly 'you aren't contributing anything new', it's pretty obvious my problem with you only given reads when directly asked is that it's an example of you not contributing anything new. The 'case' is that you've been reactive and done nothing proactive (as of it).
-Your brand of unoriginality is worse because a.) as you've said, yeah because you're on me. That makes it stand out more to me, and b.) nothing you've said has sparked me as having town POV/thought process.

1. And yet you agree a wagon energy is building on you. So...
2. Being reactive and not offering new things are two different issues entirely, and you're basically trying to kind of claim both now. I disagree, there are many points I instigated, and also many new ideas I have presented.
3. I'm sorry you're scum and being reactive and scummy or are town with a very strange and narrow view of the game.

-Wagon energy is building on me because assorted (mostly scummy) people are saying they don't like me but not voting me. You aren't doing anything to push it. Like I said, it feels like you're waiting and hoping it builds from the undercurrent.
-I was claiming you did both from the start. As of the iso i did, you had next to noghting new.
-If you think I'm reactive you aren't reading me. Especially when you're trying to say you aren't. Although people generally find how I look at stuff strange and you might want to do some meta sometime if your problem is with my thinking style.

1. Who are these people specifically?
2. That is provably untrue - from what post did you do the iso and what will you give me to quote a new idea from a post there or before?
3. You are very reactive, you literally just admitted your issue with me was half based on it being about you. If you'd like to call that something other than reactive because you'd like to quibble definitions I'm fine with that. But that's an example of what I mean by reactive.

[Thor665]

@Toranaga - I just asked a specific question about his most recent interaction with you.
ISO me for it - I don't have a long ISO.

@Grey - I...don't lurk as scum...?
Okay, I get your point now.

[Thor665]

That is indeed the question.

[Thor665]

If you don't see it now, I doubt I'll be able to convince you tbh. It looks like the kind of thing town comes up with when they're actually trying to find scum. I think scum would be more likely to push easier targets for reasons that are easier to think of.

I can understand the concept of scum seeking easier fish to fry (though would suggest since I'm gunning for him he's at least slightly obligated to engage).
But how does the 'genuinely uninformed' part play into that idea? They appear to be different things, no?

Did you just mean 'scum wouldn't attack Thor, they'd pick an easier target' when you said 'genuinely uninformed'?

[Thor665]

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

[Thor665]

I mean, we can agree that scum *do* go in too deep semi-often right?
Because the only way it's the town tell you're painting it as works is if they don't, or less often than town in a noticeable ratio - are you claiming that?

[Thor665]

Huh, that's actually reasoning I follow. Not agree with, but follow.

That's what I'd expect scum to do.
I'd expect town to go 'wait a minute, this is over reaching and silly' at some stage.

Eh, confirmation bias is a hell of a drug. I've seen much more made out of much less.

Agreed, but when they don't it's a good town tell.
I don't think the reverse is true or arguable.

[Thor665]

I find the two wagons competing at the moment kind of interesting because each has one scum, one null, and one town read of mine on them.
So I want the competition to become more violent.

VOTE: Vote:Tchill

I'm betting on this, who wants to bet against me?

[Thor665]

What are you waiting for?
You've ducked explaining your deep reads, and now you don't want to weigh in on some sexy wagon competition?
This is the point you yell at me again for suggesting you're not helping town.

[Thor665]

Haven’t ducked anything. You just haven’t read.

I think you're lying (again) quote it to prove me wrong?

Thor explain to me how it makes sense for scum!CS to claim a fake guilty?

I don't think it would make sense.
That said - he's not claiming a guilty, he's claiming a super strong read.
I am willing to dance with that game, you are not - but explain to me this one, if he's wrong - how do you analyze a blind wagon where they can claim read?
That should tell you all you need to know about my vote placement.

why are you not looking at the horrible reasons for the chill wagon @Thor?

Because I don't think it looks, nor looked gross.
Now you can read me in association with your thoughts on the wagon and my willingness to join it.

[Thor665]

@Cheeky - so the tell is good enough to be a guilty "for you" but you're going to waste time asking why it's not good enough for others? Shouldn't that be self-evident if you agree it's not an actual guilty claim but simply a strong read?
I don't think MariaR's behavior post the case on her is brilliant enough to dissuade a wagon - though I will note that you're saying she hasn't done anything to stop the case on her, and that's total BS. What case is she supposed to argue against? What issue are people wagoning her on she can debate? A PR claim is literally all I think she could do besides just exploding into a mountain of scumhunting - so why are you talking about this like it's a tell? I can see it not being good enough to change minds to townreads, but it *IS NOT* good enough to change minds to scum reads. It bothers me you're acting like it is.

The solution of chaining a lynch after offering a read does not fill me with joy either as a strategy.
I'll be over here on the counter wagon washing my hands

[Thor665]

Is there anything in particular that made/makes you like the Tchill wagon? Do you there's a good chance he'll flip scum (if so, why)?

I think there's a perfectly reasonable chance he'll flip scum, and his loss, if town, wouldn't cost us much of anything considering how he's opting to play.
The push on him was organic, his reaction was a steaming pile of 'meh'.

Because I can have no issue with a wagon (or the people on it), but that doesn't mean it's going to land on scum.

Do you think the Tchill wagon is on town?
Why?

I'll be over here on the counter wagon washing my hands

Are you fighting this wagon on principle or just don't want to deal with blowback? I don't understand why this is even a concern for you.

I was directly asked to comment on the wagon and defend my stance of not blindly supporting it.
Why does that come off as me fighting the wagon and being a concern to you?
It's clearly a concern to Cheeky - but why me?
That's like if your next post was 'Thor, why do you keep talking about the MariaR wagon so much?" It's skim level true - but is also blatantly not a valid question.

[Thor665]

I'm pretty sure Maria is scum because I'm town,

my wagon didn't go through, scum doesn't let their wagon go through

and now we're probably back onto a town wagon.

It'd be nice to lynch Maria.

Hold on I think I need the bolded section explained to me

He's saying that the reason the MariaR wagon didn't go through is because scum blocked it.
He also claims he's town, even though his wagon didn't go through either, and presumably not because scum blocked it, though he doesn't really expand on taht concept.
Meanwhile people ask me to justify voting Tchill

Hai Thor

Who's town? If it's pretty clearly stated recently in your ISO let me know. I'll go fish.

randomidget (strong read)
Beeboy (soft read)
Bins (mid read)
Quick (mid read)
Gorkington (mid to strong read)
GreyICE (mid read)
Spiffeh (mid to strong read)
Brigand Vvulf (soft read)
Creature (mid read)
Brian Skies (soft read)
Nero Cain (hanging on by the edge of his thin little nails read)

Why?

[Thor665]

VOTE: Srceenplay

I'm for this now.

[Thor665]

You were trying to get into my pocket?

Also, most of what I'm reading there is;
I'm glossing over the game.
My hydra partner is doing it even worse.
Why do people scumread this empty glossing slot?

I've got a hint for you...

I don't want to lynch you today, but you and/or your partner need to pick up your game or replace out. Seriously.

[Thor665]

someone claimed a guilty on maria?

[Thor665]

Well...Centipede was the guilty call on MariaR...

[Thor665]

I certainly see no value in a Cheeky lynch today.

[Thor665]

Because...?

We're aiming for important scum, not scum that definitely won't live to endgame like Srceenplay.

I feel like this is some sort of time traveler's paradox...

[Thor665]

what...


seriously
someone claimed a guilty?!?

why can’t i find it...
centi didn’t uh

I also had like a four page back and forth with Cheeky about it. And people have had multiple moments of debate about it. And the wagons firing up after MariaR's death are half based on reactions to that wagon.
How much of the thread are you skipping?
Because I've skipped well over thirty full pages and skimmed another ten or so and I knew that was happening.

[Thor665]

Like, I openly claim I don't overly care for larges and that I skip and skim.
How am I not at least in the top five least connected players in the thread?

[Thor665]

Both heads of this hydra are of the mind that if we get lynched, at least we're freed from the burden of having to win this game for you incompetent dirtbags.

Tbh labeling people in this game incompetent dirtbags doesn't make much sense since most of the people currently on your wagon had been on the Maria wagon when she died and ended up flipping scum, while your slot was hopping from Maria counter wagon to Maria counter wagon

I'll second this point - I can understand not enjoying the pacing of the game or posting styles in the game.
But to argue that overt blatantly bad play is happening is rather a bit of a stretch.
Why do you keep tossing up smokescreens instead of replacing out?
Because either you both hate the game (in which case replace out)
Or you're lying about how much you hate the game.

Which is it?

[Thor665]

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

[Thor665]

Because he scumreads me, Panop, and Grey for "reasons"

[Thor665]

This was very much a sideways swapout for the Quick slot.

Screen is townie and the wagon composition there is awful.
Tchill is a worse wagon.
Grey is a fine wagon.

I agree Tchill is a poor wagon at this stage - what's the beef with the Srceen wagon comp? It looks fine as long as you ignore the random and unsupported Grey=scum concept.

Grey/Pan scum and Thor possible scum.
Counterwagon to Pan wagon.
I like Screen's tone. Hang on a minute here.

Yeah, beacuse 2-3 scum are on one wagon.

Also, Panop is a counter to the Srceen wagon - learn to note when a wagon picks up steam?
Srceen was, functionally, a counter to Tchill methinks - which you agree was iffy, so...?

[Thor665]

You forgot to explain why I was scum at any point btw I think? Might have missed a page or few somewhere though.

I didn't forget and did expalin it (unlike Srceen explaining his Tchill read and straight up lying about it while you quote it as a town interaction.
I'm not pushing you right now - if you want the case go find it, I'll agree with you that it's not worth much pursuit now, will disagree that it is worth pursuit then.
Spare us all the boredom of you losing a debate with me?

I was using counterwagon in the (incorrect) useage of 'alternative wagon'.

They mean really different things.
A wagon happening at a roughly similar time to a wagon you prefer is *not* a valid reason to dismiss it.

[Thor665]

Last interaction we had was me responding to you unless this is an invisible case.

I fail to see who had the last interaction somehow equates to lack of my presenting of my case - clarify?
Also, if you think ducking presentation of a case is scummy - could you describe your thoughts on Srceenplay doing the same/show me where you think he actually answered the question?
I think you get too tunneled on people who question you.

[Thor665]

viewtopic.php?p=10110849#p10110849

@Hopkirk - y'know, done the first time you asked me.

[Thor665]

So your two issues with me are that
a.) I tunneled people who question me.
and
b.) I townread people who scumread me (Brian and Nero) after launching interactions with them.

That's inconsistent reasoning from here.

I'll agree that's inconsistant...if I'd said both of those things.
Can you quote where I expressed b) at any time? Because I'm pretty sure you're making that up because you're being daft and tunneled.

Not quoting that because whether Screen answered your question as you'd like isn't relevant to my read on him.

It's relevant to your tunneling making you a hypocrit.
WOuldn't you like to shove in my face that I'm wrong?
I'm literally setting up for you to either prove I'm wrong or to at least ask yourself why you're reading two things very differently (even though now you're having to change tune a bit since I gave you one example - another tunnel proof. Stop being narf.).

'You look like an opportunistic reactive to me.'
Is not a fully explained case.

So now it's not that I didn't describe the case, it's that I didn't provide examples (the only thing that case is missing) and it's a total drop of your claim that somehow by you responding last I didn't do something.
Do you see the issue here?
Sheep me on Srceen.

[Thor665]

Scum often do that to town also.

[Thor665]

true, its null though. What do you think of Bins content?

I find his content okay, I have him playing in the town pool at the moment.

I'll try to relax, but I still think that there's at least 2 scum on my wagon and I'm more sure of my Hopkirk read than any other read I've got this game.

What's the case v Screenplay, though?

-obserVed

The snarky answer is 'go look at his ISO' (which actually I think is a pretty valid answer).
But for my end I would say that he is playing in an obstructionist way while claiming he is doing the opposite yet refusing to back up said claims.
He's basically blustering while doing nothing.
Compare/contrast with Grey - who blusters while actively doing the things he's claiming he's doing.

Also, if you have a bugaboo about Hopkirk (well, frankly I'd say double check his play around MariaR because I'm doubting the Hopkirk scum read now) but if you still do, I would note that his uneven application of a tell on me vs. Srceenplay while refusing to even check out Srceenplay's actions should be a decent enough association tell to at least intrigue you into researching the slot more.

[Thor665]

@Panop - I would strongly oppose two of those, with Ausuka the only one I could get behind in a 'meh' sort of way.
I'd basically get behind lynching you more excitedly than any of those three, because at least your slot was twigging me earlier.

If you are town, I'd suggest you either present an exciting new case that wows some people, or assess tn or Srceenplay and pick from between them.

[Thor665]

Hope springs eternal.

[Thor665]

It's okay Spiffeh, you can just come play in my world where you can catch scum, be blatantly town, and still be a scum read 'because Thor'.

You get used to it after a while...

[Thor665]

if the people pushing for a srceen lynch could make a case with points as to why hes scum other than "lol he is" then that would probably help too.
if someone's done that already then apologies (but im pretty sure nobody has)

What's the case v Screenplay, though?

-obserVed

The snarky answer is 'go look at his ISO' (which actually I think is a pretty valid answer).
But for my end I would say that he is playing in an obstructionist way while claiming he is doing the opposite yet refusing to back up said claims.
He's basically blustering while doing nothing.
Compare/contrast with Grey - who blusters while actively doing the things he's claiming he's doing.

Also, if you have a bugaboo about Hopkirk (well, frankly I'd say double check his play around MariaR because I'm doubting the Hopkirk scum read now) but if you still do, I would note that his uneven application of a tell on me vs. Srceenplay while refusing to even check out Srceenplay's actions should be a decent enough association tell to at least intrigue you into researching the slot more.

2nd verse, same as the 1st.

[Thor665]

I'll agree that I think I'm the only one presenting a case, but still...

[Thor665]

@Grey
@Brian

I'm hardly enamored by Hopkirk's play - but you're telling me that how he got on the MariaR wagon isn't at least a clever enough of a buss to make him not a good Day 1 lynch?

[Thor665]

@Grey
@Brian

I'm hardly enamored by Hopkirk's play - but you're telling me that how he got on the MariaR wagon isn't at least a clever enough of a buss to make him not a good Day 1 lynch?

I don't understand the question. Please rephrase.

It's frustrating because Grey groked it fine, and I'm not sure how to phrase it easier. Okay, try this one;

I think Hopkirk's vote on MariaR looks enough like "not a bus" to qualify for not lynching him today - why do you disagree, and if you don't disagree, do something else"

Make sense?

@Grey
@Brian

I'm hardly enamored by Hopkirk's play - but you're telling me that how he got on the MariaR wagon isn't at least a clever enough of a buss to make him not a good Day 1 lynch?

As what, the ninth vote?

Smurf no.

The number has very little to do with it as I think you'll agree with me that town also voted late on that wagon.
What about his vote looks like strong bus indication exactly?

[Thor665]

I think Hopkirk's vote on MariaR looks enough like "not a bus" to qualify for not lynching him today - why do you disagree, and if you don't disagree, do something else"

I'm voting srceen and advocating srceen's lynch?

My bad, for some reason I thought you were posting again and again attacking Hopkirk and making a case on him distracting us all while the Grey wagon builds steam and the Srceen one dies.

Also curious why you think that Hop's vote looks like 'not a bus' when he never joined it until the second time it came around and left it once she claimed.

Curious why you think he unvoted considering he was voting her at the time she died.
Maybe you should go back and read his votes again?

[Thor665]

@Thor: Hopkirk was the 9th vote on the wagon, and then proceeded to ask lots of questions about the role. If the town was buying the claim he was in the perfect position to say "lets wait a day or two and see what results come up".

You're right - though he didn't.

If the town didn't, he could claim that he was on the wagon.

Which he was - and he wasn't trying hard to make the wagon his, so let's be honest about how much amazing town cred you get from a bus you don't bother getting behind. Which, I'll agree paradoxically is why I'm giving it cred, not a crazy amount, but assuredly not a zero to negative amount like you're doing.

I would like you to explain what's so town about the vote, because where I'm sitting it looks like a classic late vote for town credit.

You're saying the classic vote is a lazy one like that? Now you're talking bollocks - scum try to scream a little bit when they do that, Hopkirk straight up didn't.
Can you show me an example of this 'classic' lazy scum move? I think you're smoking something right now and asking me to share.

Speaking of, I would honestly say I expected a lot more from you based on past play. There's a joke about "when thor's play is bad, thor isn't town" and... it's not very funny.

I agree it's not funny - it becomes funny when they combo it with 'Thor's scum game is very good' and then become convinced they spotted me for silly reasons.
Also, this response is a straight non-sequitur to anything we're talking about and also lacks a conclusion. Why are you spewing at me?

Can we just lynch someone useless like the worst and or srceenplay and move on?

Yaaaaaas!
I'll also add that the worst looks straight null meh play to me, while there is actually a valid and reasonable srceenplay case on the table, and the only person who has engaged me to try to disprove it is Hopkirk - and that led into an ongoing discussion that included Hopkirk being accussed of reading tells unevenly and also straight up refusing to read an ISO and draw a conclusion.
Hopkirk was arguing Srceenplay town.
So...

Straight up, anyone with a Srceenplay townread is either daft or a liar right now, and I can't a wagon going on this creep that lasts without a counter popping up.
So what the hell?
Sheep me already?

[Thor665]

Does anyone have decent meta knowledge of Grey? Kinda feeling like the last few pages should be telling in some way or another.

The last few pages have been the most toe-curling for me as far as what I would consider 'normal' Grey.
But it doesn't quite feel like I would expect either town nor scum Grey to do. I personally read it as him checking out of the game and just tossing insults for the most part.
I am not so excited to defend his wagon anymore, but I'd still rather lynch Srceenplay.

Screen isn't a townread anymore Thor.

Well, it's probably a good thing I never claimed that, and was simply talking about what you and I *did* do in this game.
Why are you wasting time with this?

Thor you're weirding me out. Just saying.

So is TChill no longer a thing then?

Your lack of sheep is weirding me out, so there's that.

TChill feels less optimal after the MariaR flip, no?

[Thor665]

The last few pages have been the most toe-curling for me as far as what I would consider 'normal' Grey.
But it doesn't quite feel like I would expect either town nor scum Grey to do. I personally read it as him checking out of the game and just tossing insults for the most part.
I am not so excited to defend his wagon anymore, but I'd still rather lynch Srceenplay.

Honestly my desire to lynch Grey because he's a scumSmurf has been replaced by this desire to lynch him because he's annoying me. I think I need to sheep better players than myself on him, but if there's scum on the wagon atm I don't get the feeling there's much towncred to be gained from their positions..

Personal annoyance is always a thing to struggle with when it comes to scumreads, I know it's a giant bug-a-boo for me.
My inability to clearly describe why Grey is scum as presented by other people makes me think there is attitude votes on the wagon though.

Obviously the Grey wagon blew up so fast due to a combo of town and scum votes.
Grey was being a wanker, so I'd happily bet at least a handful of votes are town (and scum?) who just got annoyed at listening to him.
I don't have a good read on if the rest was just town being damn clever and spotting scum and other town noticing/scum rushing to bus or if it was just a 'hey, wagon of the moment' type thing. I like that we have the wagon info, and I can understand the desire/need to flip Grey at this point. I disagree that it's a particularly larger need than flipping a number of other slots.

I disagree with the idea of flipping Spiffeh or Hopkirk today.

[Thor665]

1417 is basically saying "please out the read"
2011 is saying "I'm disagreeing with the read"
2438 is saying he's softly okay with the read but finds Tchill scummier.

I actually don't see the inherent issue in there unless you enter into it with the presumption they're scumbuddies, in which case I'll agree nothing rules that out. But you could play that exact same game with me and how I behaved to the MariaR wagon also - but people aren't because I'm not acting pissy and so...would be a harder wagon? Makes it not feel legit to me as a scum case.

[Thor665]

Where does the disrespect towards Elli's read enter in?
Seems like he respects it fine.

[Thor665]

I have more issue with Grey nuthugging the TChill read after the flip and showing no read progression - there, I feel like I just made a better Grey=scum case than anyone voting him (which is thus a decent argument for Grey=town).

[Thor665]

I do feel like we're talking at cross purposes, allow me to try to clarify;

You're asking me why I'm brushing off his read reversal of Elli?
I don't think there was one? Saying "the wagon is not my jam" and then "reversing" to a stance of "I'm okay with it" is not really a big shift. You call that a handwave, yeah, it is, but it's like a handwave of a mosquito - where's the bison I'm warding off exactly?

I never said you were voting Grey because he was abusive, please quote where I did. I *did* say I believed some posters were doing that. theworst openly admitted to it being possible for him - so what's the issue here exactly?

Your case;
i) It's barely a transition in my opinion.
ii) I already admitted to agreeing with that a few posts ago - the issue is it's not his scum tone, is it?
iii) Grey always soapboxes, it's just a question of how effective it is. I will admit I tend to give this a pass due somewhat to the nature of early game Larges, and also to the specific nature of a solid portion of the playerbase in this game and how they're pushing cases.

I'm also not so excited to dismantle the Grey wagon as I am to build the Srceen one - which means I need to get voters from somewhere, and currently there are a lot on Grey.
I mostly keep commenting on Grey because people keep *asking* me why I'm not supporting that wagon and instead supporting Srceen - which I keep answering. If that's tryharding to kill the Grey wagon then so be it.

[Thor665]

ii) how would you describe his scum tone? how old is your reference point?
iii) i feel like townGrey spends less time outwardly soapboxing and spends more time directing his soapboxing at specific people he wants to do things.
the former feels more like an attempt to fake generating content where the latter would feel more like an attempt to actually get someone he thinks is scum lynched.
i really do not get the impression that he actually wanted to seriously accomplish the task of lynching hopkirk as its more useful to keep a player that cant rally the playerbase that you can use as a content generating punching bag.

I note you ducked 1) even though you were complaining about me handwaving it. Isn't it a big point in your case? Shouldn't you be defending it from my handwave with more than empty bluster?
ii)I've played a number of games with him over the years, last one was probably like early 2017? Don't recall his alignment that time. I would call his scum tone as more aggressive with repetition and shouting down - he feels more laid back and directonless in his annoyance this game. Like the difference of being pissed at something, vs. being pissed at the world - make sense? How would you describe his scum tone and your issues with his tone?
iii)I think that's true of scum and town Grey, personally.
I'll agree he's not going after Hopkirk in a meaningful way, especially of late - I already agreed I found him more lynchable of late due to that.

i) his iso sucks - okay this is applicable for a few people though?
ii) can you pull where youre seeing the bolded?
besides the bolded, what gives you the impression that hes being scummy vs antitown here? can you throw specifics up?
iii) kind of confused why youre contrasting srceen with someone youve admitted youre not townreading.

i)I probably would be fine lynching those people too. I don't get your point, you appear to be agreeing his iso is scummy and terrible here.
ii) Specifically I would note the exchange I had where basically the following went down;
Thor: Here is a read
Srceenplay: That is a shallow read, you need to go DEEP
Thor: Like what? You haven't gone deep.
Srceenplay: I have!
Thor: Quote it?
::after some ducking and me trying to pin him down::
Srceenplay: Here's a read not about the person we were talking about!
Thor: Yeah, but you still didn't explain it earlier...and it's actually not that deep.
Srceenplay: ::ignores Thor. Lurks. Doesn't get voted::

It all starts about here;
viewtopic.php?p=10112200#p10112200
I would suggest ISOing just the two of us would make following the conversation flow easier.
He is blatantly ducking, telling at best half truths, and yet is acting justified. It's bollocks.

"Besides your case, what's your case" is your next question. Ya got me, if I ignore my case I don't have a case. I'm sure I could probably ISO him and come up with something nattery, because as you're clearly aware his ISO is garbage - but I'm presenting what I see as the most damning issue to discuss - so let's discuss that. If your best defense is "maybe he's just super anti-town" then, whatever. i could say that about Grey and it would be just as functional - the issue is the case and the points raised.

iii)At the time I was town reading him more. Though, frankly, even if I'm not (which I'm less so now) it's still valid in context of 'if peoplelike wagon A, why not vote for wagon B which is really just wagon A but with *more* on it"

[Thor665]

im not continuing to argue my first point because it ultimately comes down to us feeling differing levels of significance in him having switched his read there. you think its meaningless because its barely a transition and i think its meaningful because i dont think townGrey would transition his read at all in that situation.
is there really a valuable discussion to be had here?

You're the one who started it and got angered that I was handwaving it, so to a certain extent when I pointed out that it was barely a shift of his viewpoint, yeah, I kinda expected the conversation to continue.
I would think this would be a fairly subjective change - either he went from one view to a distant view, or he went between two fairly close views.
I've explained why i see them as close - can you explain why you see them as distant?

its kind of silly that youre phrasing it as me ducking it. like, thats really the first thing that comes to mind for you there rather than just "hes not interested in talking about this point anymore"?

Po-tay-to/po-tah-to.

it just isnt lining up with my expectations of his town meta.

What is the expectation and how much strength do you place on your meta awareness of him?

im not overly enthused by the idea of lynching someone just because theyre playing like Smurf?

Okay?
Wasn't arguing that we should.

i mean, the bolded is referring to "where is he claiming that hes not being obstructionist" because i didnt see it.

You'll find multiple occurrences in the conversation I had with him.

and the question about the non-bolded was wondering whether you were finding the obstructionism itself scummy and if so why?

Because it obscures truth and hides his own lack of scumhunting and hypocrisy.

if the two points are meant to be directly linked together exclusively then thats the only answer i needed.[/quote
They are linked.

will try to read the back-and-forth tonight when im not at work.

[Thor665]

if screen flips town will you help me with Grey?

If he flips scum will you hard sheep me for the next two Day phases?

[Thor665]

Like if you seriously think the Grey wagon is a wagon based on nothingness, then why are you not curious about Hop jumping over there despite super awesome scumtell on srceen?

I think it's interesting.
I don't know how interesting or in what way until I flip at least one of them.

Now I guess this sort of supports your point that it would make more sense for scum to make a bigger deal out of the Maria lynch and soak up as much townread as possible. But how often do scum do this, especially since one of the first things people look for is 'who is the busser on the wagon?'

If people believe that and are taking it into their scum play, the actual logical conclusion is to not bus (something I've been arguing for some time).
That said - the entire point of bussing is to try to vote for someone in a way it looks like you're trying to help lynch them and push it through when, in reality, you're doing spit and just participating in something that's inevitable.
I don't see anything resembling scum strategy in that vote, ergo I find it less likely to be a bus, and therefore question the idea of flipping Hopkirk at this stage.

Furthermore, they way he talked about the Maria lynch mostly just puts responsibility elsewhere (algorithm, townread on it) and gives him room to move on and off as he finds it most convenient for him.

I'll agree that he didn't seem to want to take much credit for the MariaR lynch.
I come to the opposite conclusion you do on what this suggests about his alignment.

Now if you still believe that is more likely to come from town, then I'm not sure what to tell you as don't think it's town indicative at all, and it's not like I want to lynch him right now anyway.

I do still think it's more likely to be town indicative than scum indicative - I think his scumminess is indicated in other ways entirely, and I don't see any of those as making him worthy of lynch today - which you appear to agree with at least on the final conclusion. That brings us all the way back around to the initial reason for the dust up - me suggesting that you should spend more time/energy/posts on getting Srceen lynched.
I still hold that stance.

[Thor665]

Okay?
Wasn't arguing that we should.

im not overly sure what we were talking about then.
because i assumed that we were talking about his ISO being Smurf, ie: that if hes town or scum, hes playing pretty garbage.

I never said that.
I said it was a scummy ISO.
I don't use scummy when I mean anti-town.

read the interactions a bit.
really dont know why hes ignoring you regardless of what his alignment is, but im not really interested in driving the gamestate at this point so you get my vote at deadline if nobody pushes for a grey lynch. yay

It's not just that he's "ignoring" me - in fact i would argue that he's not ignoring me.
He's answering me - but he's answering for *other people* not me. He's saying stuff like 'already answered' when if you dig into it he hasn't. He's saying stuff like 'that was easy' when not actually answering a question. He's not ignoring me - he's either massively and grossly misreading me - or he's putting on a sham act to fool people skimming the argument (which, clearly, everyone but me was).

[Thor665]

Ok, greyice it is.

Why?

[Thor665]

also think he would be madder/telling people to stop voting him if he were actually a dayvig, saying that he can dayvig someone tomorrow to prove himself.

At this stage a hard claim is all I'm moving for anyway.

[Thor665]

This day is actually ending brilliantly.

I'm going on record that not lynching Srceen is derp play.

[Thor665]

Ok, greyice it is.

Why?

srceenplay has claimed the kill on maria and has not been counterclaimed? and greyice is the only other wagon that can get to a lynch?

Anyone who is town with a kill ability that bothers to counterclaim is an idiot - so lack of a counterclaim is meaningless.
Lack of Srceenplay actually calling it a claim is a bigger issue, because it means he's softing it, and I'll suggest he's softing it to try to fish for counterclaims.
So...what?

[Thor665]

It looks to me like a continuation of the 'acting like he's answering/doing things while not' case i presented to you the other day.
I.
Am.
Shocked.
Really.

[Thor665]

Then he's dead if he's not the real killer, and we don't need to lynch him anyway? I don't get your point here.

My core point was to point out my opinion of the anti-town nature of you harping on no counterclaim as evidence of anything.
My secondary point is more conceptual - insomuch as I do see value in a lynch regardless, especially since it is preferable to lynch a scum than to lynch a town even if a scum will be shot after the town lynch.

I'm taking that as meaning that he's not hardclaiming his other abilities, which is reasonable since no CC or kill means he's conftown here without having to reveal to the mafia anything else he can do.

Like I get if he's town his play has been very weak but I don't think that's a reason to lynch him here.

I have explained (ad naseum) a scum case on him - at least pretend to be aware of it when you straw man my case into being 'he's anti-town'.

So you think he has hardclaimed the kill?
Because I don't see that - where do you?

[Thor665]

Literally all he did was ask 'who killed MariaR?' and hasn't denied that he did it.
By that logic;

Who killed MariaR?

Have I now hardclaimed Vig?

[Thor665]

The point remains that there is no direct evidence contradicting the claim, and if he's scum, that will become apparent, because whether it be by CC or kill, town can prove his claim false.

That is certainly a stance to take.
Stop talking about lack of CC though.

I'm not discussing the case? I don't remember a case, but I can read through it if you want me to.

You suggested we were lynching him because he had weak town play.
I was correcting you.
You can add yourself to the list with Gork for 'people who say they'll look at the case but are lying and can't admit it' I'm working to see how many names I can get there before someone proves me wrong.
I wish more people were like me and would openly admit regularly that they skip and skim and thus ask more questions an ddon't make bold claims about what is or is not happening in the game.

I take this as a direct claim, because it basically is, and if he tries to weasel his way out of that, I will vote him.

That is swell.
Apparently I have now direct claimed too - it is awesome.

[Thor665]

I'd also like to clarify - that I am not counterclaiming (I will always counter with bullets).
But I wanted to go far enough with it to show that Auska is *NOT* looking for claims to damn Srceenplay the same way she was down with them to clear him.
Frankly no one was.
I was openly disbelieving the claim.
I did a "claim" in the same manner he did.

Who decided to run with that?
No one.

Utter bollocks.
Bad play or scum buddy right there.

@Gork - I probably am busting your balls. But am I wrong? Because if not...well, those balls can bear the busting, yeah?

[Thor665]

I take this as a direct claim, because it basically is, and if he tries to weasel his way out of that, I will vote him.

That is swell.
Apparently I have now direct claimed too - it is awesome.

You're saying this isn't a sarcastic soft?

[Thor665]

I mean, I'll agree.
But then I wonder why his is so obvious to you.

[Thor665]

It's cool Ausuka - I'll counter you with bullets too

[Thor665]

This might be one of the best Day 1s I've been in for a long time as far as future data mining goes.
I'm so happy, I've had too long of a run of boring day 1 runs.

[Thor665]

Pan being scum is not possible any more.

Why not?

[Thor665]

I would like to lynch from this list: Nero Cain(229), Creature(298), Hopkirk(204), Tchill13(97), CheekyTeeky(163), Chickadee(414) Beeboy(87), randomidget(190)

Not thrilled by the Nero, Tchill, Chickadee or randommidget names there.
Currently have Creature, Cheeky, and Beeboy all as various soft levels of town also.
Hopkirk is a big pile of 'meh' right now.
Is that your entire wagon at peak?
Suggests one of my reads is bad, or at least that I have a soft town lean on a scummer.

Why is Brian Skies town again?

For starters MariaR tried to push a really sketchy case on him out of the gate.
Also, he was at least guardedly helpful with the Srceen push.
Seems worth letting live today still.

I played resistance last night.
Didn't really want to play.
but
I said I'm not looking at my card. Everyone blew me off except one person. He made a big deal about it. I called him out as scum. He was scum.


Kind of funny i see it here in this iso.

Screen talking about Pan.
Unless Screen had some other explination, which I assume he would have said since i think i said I'd vote him if he couldn't explain it.

Walk me through it like a dunce.
Because I'm not getting it.

[Thor665]

For starters MariaR tried to push a really sketchy case on him out of the gate.

I don't remember this.

Sorry, Ausuka.

In the simplest terms, Resistance involves two phases.
1.) Picking people to go on missions/voting on these.
2.) Going on missions.
Scum wins by failing 3/5 missions, town by passing 3/5.
Scum can put in a pass or fail during the mission, town must put in a pass.
It isn't possible to play without knowing your role as town must put in a pass card. Scum cannot win without knowing they are scum.
It's different to mafia in that regard.
Screen missed the vital aspect of the game that makes it impossible not view your role card.

Got it - he showed that either he was lying about playing a game or plays a game incorrectly.
How was that a scum slip in this game though?

[Thor665]

Oh wait nevermind you did.

It's cause he thought you and I were scum

[Thor665]

Scum who never puts in a fail card is functionally equivilent to an extra town.
Town who put in a fail card are breaking core game rules.

Screen claimed it was possible to do something it's not possible to do in game to attack Pan, likely hoping nobody would realize it couldn't be done.

It's possible he could have said 'oh, I meant I was playing online and I'd look at the role after a couple of nights'. I would have doubted that because:
- I checked on site, and he wasn't playing there.
- It sounded like he meant playing irl.
- Checking your role card irl would be a lot trickier than online due to the fact you can see people/body language and stuff.
- Talking about people getting annoyed d1 is different to not checking d1/intent to check later.

-He didn't say that when I asked him, he dodged the question (or gave an answer that didn't explain things).

Looking into this, he clearly said he just plays as town.
Which sounds like maybe a crappy way to play - but not a lie.
Does look like an attack on Panop though.
Meh, okay, let's leave Panop off the table.

[Thor665]

I kind of just want to lynch Hopkirk for Ausuka's 'he looks genuinely uninformed' defense.

What are people's reads on Pan?

I was more negative about Pan until Hopkirk pointed out Srceen's limp wrist attack.
I'd be fine with a Hopkirk lynch at the moment, but I'm still not fully settled in on who I'd like dead. Had plots for Ausuka, but now those are settled, so...y'know, new victims needed.

Probably scum on Grey wagon though - I like the idea of lynching there.

[Thor665]

Yeah, but Chickadee slot is town, that's a pretty solid read in my head.
We can do Hop to be lazy and just to flip him, but I'm kinda meh on it still from yesterday.
Cheeky probably isn't a bad push - might need to re-read that slot and Beeboy, the Beeboy read is assuredly stale at this stage, so might be wrong.

[Thor665]

I still don't really think that Grey is town just b/c Screen flipped scum.

I disagree, and since you have to hard sheep me for two phases, it'll be fine.

@Thor

, Why are you town reading the chick slot?

Because of Quick.

I still don't really think that Grey is town just b/c Screen flipped scum.

nor do I. Srceenplay was bus material and almost a cop guilty.

How'd you manage to miss voting for him then?

I wanted to lynch some scum that could actually get to endgame unlike Srceenplay.

Srceen was an enabler.
So, sometimes it's good to just lynch scum.

@Grey - I'm not to town on Hop, but I did bounce him back from scum to null, so I understand the pain and the logic there
I think Creature is probably worth another day.
Cheeky I'm having a hard time remembering what they've done, so...yeah.

Let's say I'm on Beeboy or Cheeky - this weekend I'll do a bit of ISO quick skimming, then drink a White Russian, flip a coin, and claim I performed a lot of analysis and then vote one of them for lulz.

I'll admit to a certain extent I think we're probably just killing town for a few days to clear chaff and hope we get lucky though.

[Thor665]

early reads are that creature is town, brian probably is too.

I think I'm being buddied.

was I wrong, Brian?

Scum/scum interaction?

[Thor665]

I was busy with life.
But I'm also okay with the Cheeky wagon.

VOTE: Cheeky Teeky

[Thor665]

This wagon doesnt feel as great as yesterday's

Because it's not.
That said, murdering people not participating in meaningful ways is inherently valuable at this stage.

Bee lurking it out makes me think largely of his scum game and I'd support Pan as well. Cheeky wagon is fine though.

Is the Bee read stronger than the Cheeky read?

[Thor665]

That said, murdering people not participating in meaningful ways is inherently valuable at this stage.

We can't lynch them all though.

Whether or not we can, I bet we can lynch enough to get some interesting info.

[Thor665]

I just did an ISO skim of both and I think I agree with Chickadee.
Bee's entire ISO can be summed up as tunneled on quick, eventually called him town, kinda "pushed" TChill.
There's pretty much nothing there - Cheeky is being more functional than that, yeah?

[Thor665]

Beeboy is assuredly the most questionable slot on that wagon at the moment.
He was also on the Gray wagon, which I think had scum energy on it.
I'm being very sold.

VOTE: Beeboy

[Thor665]

Scum victory is inevitable if town starts thinking derpy like that

Town victory is statistically more likely currently. But slips, cups, and lips, as they say.

[Thor665]

Northsidegal literally just said she'd still be running the game.

[Thor665]

I'm interested in why people think Cheekys scum or want her flip.

I'm not even campaigning for her lynch right now and I can tell you it's 'lurk and lack of impact in the face of actual town reads'.
A lot of the town is currently sorted as town - so we're going to be killing less town people for a bit of a spell until someone can present an exciting scum case on someone (no, your Hopkirk read is not that exciting, though I will agree with you he is in the potentially lynchable reads pile, if that excites you).

Also, why are you asking this when Beeboy is apparently on the ropes and the only town who is clearly and painfully gunning for a Cheeky flip, pun intended, is not one who you should be trying to draw attention to.

Sell Hopkirk lynch better or explain why Beeboy is town - those are the plays for today.

[Thor665]

I'm not even campaigning for her lynch right now and I can tell you it's 'lurk and lack of impact in the face of actual town reads'.

I'm not understanding this.

When people have a lot of townreads, people who aren't overtly scummy but are generally useless become stronger lynch candidates than they might otherwise be.

I'm disappointed that I don't have anything strong enough to strongarm the lynch I want, but that is to be expected.

If you don't - then maybe it's not a lynch worth strongarming.

Sorry I'll check this game tomorrow.
I am going to bed now.

I don't think lynching me is optimal for ~reasons~ I'd rather say later.

Tbh Mulch not being on site killed my motivation to play this game. I joined this game because I like Mulch as a mod not for the playerlist, like I respect his decision but I am kinda sad he is gone.

Are Panop and Grey are having a competition to see who can sideline their vote most effectively today?

[Thor665]

kind of feel like greyice and panopticon need to get revisited.

Grey gets a pass from me this phase for being the Srceenplay counter wagon.
I agree with you on Panop, and if Grey doesn't change I'll probably agree with you again on him sooner or later. But I'd much rather flip Bee, Hop, and probably Cheeky before a Grey flip unless new info comes to light.

[Thor665]

I'm gonna lurk a few more days.

I'm going to observe a moment of silence for Mulch.

Mulch would want you to spam post in his honor though.

[Thor665]

kind of feel like greyice and panopticon need to get revisited.

Grey gets a pass from me this phase for being the Srceenplay counter wagon.
I agree with you on Panop, and if Grey doesn't change I'll probably agree with you again on him sooner or later. But I'd much rather flip Bee, Hop, and probably Cheeky before a Grey flip unless new info comes to light.

Why is AP town?

Hint: He's not, but feel free to review things before answering.

I squinted really hard and didn't see me claiming he was in that post.
So I don't really see the value of town casing him to you.

[Thor665]

Can someone tell me why beeboy is scum?

I've already picked up this gauntlet elsewhere.
Blah,blah, blah, why do we need to post so much repetition for people not reading the game, blah, blah.

Short answer: he's doing Smurf all and I have a lot of stronger townreads.

Why do you *not* want to lynch him? He's, at best, a lurker lean town slot - anyone with a stronger read than that is lying.
So?

[Thor665]

Waht amkes you thnk I was whining chickadee?

Not you Vax <3

AP has made a bit of a fuss over people not telling him anything when he replaced in.

It's kind of funny he's complained twice, frankly. He asked once, used strange syntax when he did, and complained about it about an hour and a half later after a quick skim told him this vital information.

[Thor665]

Fake for what benefit?

"Ooooh, I townread Gork *before* I knew he was confirmed town!"

Like half the game (including, methinks, AP's slot) were doing that before Gork was killed. So...whoop-dee-doo?
Maybe it is a lie - but it's a lie his previous slot owner probably already set up, and it's also about something you shouldn't town read him for anyway, so ignore the truth/lie and assess the slot without it.

Also quietly mock him till he stops mentioning it so it doesn't bore you

[Thor665]

I can understand thinking it's faked emotion, I am with you that it feels played up (though I'll admit I'm feeling more played up for a sense of 'woe is me/laughs')
Do you see a scum advantage to him playing it up?

[Thor665]

If you come up with a reason scum would be more likely to do it than town I'll be excited to hear it.

[Thor665]

I feel like the last 24 hours have been...well, not as aggressively unuseful as a lot of Day 1, but at least kind of meaninglessly drawn out.

I'd like to see...oh, wow, totally needing to use preview to translate this;

Votecount 2.71

Beeboy(8)

~ Creature(42), The Worst(68), Chickadee(14), Thor665(21), Brigand Vvulf(16), Bins(15), AP(31), GreyICE(26)

CheekyTeeky(4)

~ Hopkirk(31), Gorkington(15), Nero Cain(18), Beeboy(3)

Hopkirk(2)

~ Brian Skies(40), CheekyTeeky(10)

Brian Skies(1)

~ Panopticon(20)


Not Voting (5): Town Gunner(0), Mafia Gunner(0), randomidget(0), Spiffeh(13), Centipede Syndrome(11)

Vax/random gets a pss because 'catching up' but;

@Spiffeh
@Centipede (think you're derp voting Bins now, but still)

Your non votes are utterly useless. Do something with them please and thank you.

@Panop - people scumspect you, you're probably for the chop in the next few phases - what's up with that useless Brian vanity vote that you're not even active pushing? I've seen Newbies play better.

@Brian
@Cheeky

Your wagon of choice is 50% smaller than the next largest competitor, which is 50% smaller than the leading wagon. You need to get out some drums and make that case exciting, or you should toss in support for a larger wagon that you're at least comfortable attaching your name to.

I am pretty sure Hopkirk is now calling Cheeky town, don't remember where his vote is, so;

@Hopkirk - if your current vote was exciting I feel I'd remember where it was, you better be voting Beeboy or you also need to pull out a drum and make yourself useful.

I want a hammer intent or for people to do something interesting. I have zero interest in five more days of this sludge.
To anyone who brings it up - nope, I don't care one whit to let Vax catch up first.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Panopticon

[Thor665]

[Thor665]

Your interactions with Screen/Ausuka aren't quite as I remember. Your trajectory on me is pretty meh.

Be more specific? This feels more like you posturing a read change me as my lynch candidacy grows rather than you actually contributing worthwhile thoughts about me.

Didn't you refuse the last thing I asked you?

Why does him refusing to give info justify you doing so?
Either it was bad when he did it - in which case you shouldn't do it.
Or you should just openly claim you think it's fine not to explain your reads.

Pick one?

[Thor665]

There's a pretty big difference between 'it' in regards to someone you're pushing and trying to get others to join you in lynching, and 'it' in regards to a read that I'm not voting.
I'm trying to review my reads right now. I think I've made that obvious.

I think him questioning a read he sees as opportunistic is interesting, and your inability to actually describe a read is pretty weaksauce.
That's the big difference I'm seeing currently.

[Thor665]

Not doing something isn't the same as being unable to do it.

Agreed.
But that then begs the question of why you think not explaining an offered read when asked to is pro-town play exactly.

[Thor665]

Can you tell me why?
I hate to think I'm being a dolt and barking up wrong trees - but the slot doesn't vibe town to me really at all.

[Thor665]

I was actually getting paranoid that there was some sort of scum gravedigger type role that was giving town wolf flips because I was like "no way everyone's reads can be going this well"

Definitely one of the strongest rolls I've ever been part of. Multiple town players played excellently.

[Thor665]

*Town* Cheeky?
Yeah, the paranoia was strong in you at that point

[Thor665]

Hopefully my beard is this sexy always.

[Thor665]

My plan is to just constantly brag about it ad naseum until people give me a badge to try to shut me up.