Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ouroboros]

Okay, okay

I see what's happening here

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: MWNN

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Alchemist21

rather overblown for page one, would have to verify if that's in fact alignment indicative but

[Ouroboros]

@hydrae: Signing your posts would be much appreciated.

Consider it done.

Ghost

@Alchemist

- I, personally, have never played with Dave before, so I have to ask, is his preference for staying under the radar something he does regardless of alignment?

@Dave

- Can you attest to this behavioral preference as something you do, regardless of alignment?

[Ouroboros]

@Alchemist

- Got it.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

There are some who prefer not to hear self meta but since you asked might as well. I would say it's more accurately an aversion to gambits as any alignment.
Not claiming miller as town would be a gambit on hoping to not be investigated.
While we're on the subject of self meta and laying low, it is also true that I'm usually passive until I have a substantial lead to follow.

Okay.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

i saw the first miller claim and was like

there's probably gonna be another, this being a gif game and all

[Ouroboros]

@Mod - Do scum have access to day talk?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Wilky had an odd reaction to being CCed and I think he might be scum miller given miller as a fakeclaim.

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Wilky

[Ouroboros]

why did you ask this (if it isn't a joke/meme)?

Not a joke. Why would think so?

It occurred to me that Wilky and Dave could be scum theatre, but then I realized that that would be stupid.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Alchemists post is great.

'Town' great? You haven't voted for him, so I'm guessing 'town great'?

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Wilky

Very very very high odds of this being scum

[Ouroboros]

You are in a counterclaim and your reaction to the counterclaim felt straight up scum.

I also have a very good grasp of the way GIF's mind works and him putting 1 scum with miller fakeclaim countering 1 town miller makes so, so much sense

[Ouroboros]

Lynch pool: Tchill13

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I actually think that the mod explicitly would given that his last game had two town millers.

[Ouroboros]

I mean I heavily heavily scumread the player regardless of my assessment of what GIFwould do.

Thinking it through and seeing this as a highly likely thing for GIF to do is just icing on the cake.

[Ouroboros]

No I actually explicitly don't think that safe claims were given since giffles didn't last game: I think that your role is actually miller but you're scum and that the role PM is something memey about you being a miller despite being scum.

That's also such, such, such a scummy reaction.

WE'RE LYNCHING BUGS BUNNY BOYS EASY GAME.

[Ouroboros]

So we're just assuming that safe claims are given now?

Like this is SUCH an "I'm scum and didn't have fakeclaims" response.

[Ouroboros]

Like why is that ever his response here unless he's scum miller?

[Ouroboros]

I'm not following.

RC - Explain how a scum miller works, please.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Wilky/Alchemist/Maria scum maybe

I really do need to meta Alchemist, this opener is probably highly indicative and I'm assuming scum but it might be the opposite

:shrug:

[Ouroboros]

WRT Maria, not a fan of her voting with me while simultaneously saying something about how she doesn't like my reasons for voting him
like GIF meta was such a small part of it, if it was just GIF meta I'd be 50/50 Davesaz/Wilky, I've been clear that I had a scumread on Wilky since before I brought any meta into it

That said she's scumread me for really illogical stuff before so I'm not going to jump to conclusions, but particularly if Wilky is scum it's something to think about.

[Ouroboros]

OK I've thought pretty hard and long about this.

I don't see how my role could be a positive for town.

I'm hard claiming hider that can hide behind scum.

I'm hoping it's understandable why I would hard claim this day 1.

Uh it's a bad idea to claim this day 1

at least you maybe drag the kill away from me long enough for me to do some damage

[Ouroboros]

I cut my Alchemist meta dive short when I decided that the specific vibes that I'm getting point more to him being town than scum.
I'm going to go back to it at some point today but I'm comfortable calling him town for now.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not getting the Wilky hate. Like at all. Why in the world would scum fakeclaim miller to 1v1 a useless powerrole. Everyone on that wagon gets -10 town cred.

What does seem possible to me is that Dave fakeclaims miller and then CC'd.

vote:Dave

This is a terrible viewpoint on the matter
You're acting like the fakeclaim was to 1v1: if Wilky had claimed and I had bloodlust time to murder this fuck who fakeclaimed miller vibes I would have agreed with you.
I got the vibes with Wilky's claim that he was voting Davesaz because he was obligated to and looking for a way to defuse the tension and end with oh we both agree we're both town.

[Ouroboros]

I cut my Alchemist meta dive short when I decided that the specific vibes that I'm getting point more to him being town than scum.
I'm going to go back to it at some point today but I'm comfortable calling him town for now.

I expect this post to be scumread
I did an incomplete dive involving 3 games, the white flag, the scum that was a perfect win immediately before that, and the town that was before that

I definitely vibe his play here more town than scum but I want a more complete picture of his meta before I lock that in and I plan to go back because if the trend continues Alchemist will likely end up being a safe slot to locktown on D1

[Ouroboros]

I'm ngl tho I wanna knee jerk deathtunnel him because his approach to the wilky slot is so scummy but I feel like that's the wrong part of me talking

This has all been RC, me and anony haven't actually talked much about this game I'll get her on board with this later.

[Ouroboros]

Also let's be totally clear on what my viewpoint is
My viewpoint is that Wilky IS IN FACT A MILLER BY ROLE. HIS ROLE PM SAYS MILLER.
But he is scum nonetheless.

That is why he claimed miller, having the role, and that is why he immediately gave Davesaz an out to make the situation not a counterclaim.

I get zero vibes from his response that he actually thinks Davesaz is lock scum and the vote felt more of an obligation and that Wilky just wanted to get the situation dealt with.

This is also a completely GIF thing to do, he has put two town millers in multiple previous games and I think it's about time that he screws with that meta by making one scum.

[Ouroboros]

You're over thinking it.

Someone rolls scum Miller they CC here in exactly that manner because it's the obvious thing to do + not cc'ing at all opens to role cop.

[Ouroboros]

Given the mod meta which I firmly firmly disbelieve that he was not aware of given his giving him a chance (he obviously didn't see them as lockscum so either he's scum or didn't lock the guy in because he had some reason not to see it as a true CC) claiming Miller makes sense analytically, is the obvious play for him just playing the game out, and is liable to get reactions like yours. He was not ever afraid of getting policy lynched or vigged unless town saw it as a true CC and given that he immediately tried to make it not a true CC by giving himself a reason to townread Davesaz, well, yeah.

[Ouroboros]

Also let's be totally clear on what my viewpoint is
My viewpoint is that Wilky IS IN FACT A MILLER BY ROLE. HIS ROLE PM SAYS MILLER.
But he is scum nonetheless.

That is why he claimed miller, having the role, and that is why he immediately gave Davesaz an out to make the situation not a counterclaim.

I get zero vibes from his response that he actually thinks Davesaz is lock scum and the vote felt more of an obligation and that Wilky just wanted to get the situation dealt with.

This is also a completely GIF thing to do,

he has put two town millers in multiple previous games and I think it's about time that he screws with that meta by making one scum.

Ok so I guess you and Maria are seeing the same thing. But regarding the bolded part, what makes you think GiF would screw with the meta at all? If 2 Town Millers has been the case in multiple previous games, what makes this game more likely to be the exception than the rule?

He's not going to do it forever and Willy is just super independently scummy.

[Ouroboros]

I was really hoping only jungle was nancy.

Do you want to have this fight?

[Ouroboros]

After our last few games i restarted, meta dove your entire game history again, and switched to reading you off a different tac. There's a reason I locktowned you three posts into the turbo when I was literally the only person townreading you.

If you're scum I'll figure it out if not you get to not have to defend yourself

It'll be great

[Ouroboros]

I'm NGL I hope you're scum

I'll enjoy it a lot more

[Ouroboros]

Also let's be totally clear on what my viewpoint is
My viewpoint is that Wilky IS IN FACT A MILLER BY ROLE. HIS ROLE PM SAYS MILLER.
But he is scum nonetheless.

That is why he claimed miller, having the role, and that is why he immediately gave Davesaz an out to make the situation not a counterclaim.

I get zero vibes from his response that he actually thinks Davesaz is lock scum and the vote felt more of an obligation and that Wilky just wanted to get the situation dealt with.

This is also a completely GIF thing to do, he has put two town millers in multiple previous games and I think it's about time that he screws with that meta by making one scum.

Got it.

Since Tchill13 claimed Hider, I have to reconsider that.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I've never heard of hider being able to survive hiding behind mafia.

Has anyone at all?

No. The purpose of the Hider is to "confirm" scum by dying after they've visited a person. Mind you, this is only effective if everyone hypo-claims a Hiding target that can be followed if someone dies during the Night phase. If someone dies and flips as the Hider, people can go "Ah Ha!" and see who the Hider hypo-claimed to hide behind and then lynch scum.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I haven't had the dubious honor of seeing scum Hebichan in action before and I'm pretty sure that I'm seeing her here!

Tchill having a weird role and reacting weirdly to it is NAI.

Wilky remains scum and everyone who comes in and doesn't comment on him at all while pushing the wagon elsewhere is dying over the next few days.

Don't be doing that if you're town

[Ouroboros]

I also have reasons that I can't share for thinking Tchills claim is a lot likelier than people think: that said I don't think the Tchill wagon is really gaining momentum as much as scum are all voting there to distract from caught scum Wilky.

[Ouroboros]

My theory is that TChill is not lying about his role, but is lying about the alignment.

I think we have either a Vig or an SK somewhere in here, and the mafia has a hider, specifically, TChill.

Wilky is probably a scum partner.

By extension, Ourobouros is town.

This is a strange and pretty scummy position to hold if Tchill is town and Wilky is scum which I'm pretty sure is the case

If they're both scum why won't you vote Willy?

That said I'm not even like townreading Tchill play wise but the amount of scummy people jumping on him over wilky is pretty staggering to the point I want to locktown him

I daresay if Maria is scum bussing there would be more bus votes

Okay that's fair thank you.

Basically there was a discussion GIF was privy to about when does hider actually mean and the result was that hider is the process of hiding and dying if target is shot, weak hider is the traditional hider role. So I believe the claim

Do I locktown it? Nah. But Hebichan jump is ick

[Ouroboros]

Why do you care so much about what the vig can do?

Who says everyone will even go back and deal with wilky after anonymousghosts powertowning terrifies the scumteam into NKing us?

Like I'm not locking Tchill town like, say, Alchemist probably but the reasons for scumreading them are pretty dubious

[Ouroboros]

Oh lol hebi voted alch

Still very very scummy, never seen her have this poor of an opener as town, meshes pretty well with what I've seen from scum her.

I also think there's a lot of info to be gleaned from meta diving Tchill but I suppose that I can do that later

[Ouroboros]

What makes.you so certain Tchill is scum?

Guess I'm meta diving this now then

[Ouroboros]

That's a terrible approach to take given if scum have a protective they'll always be on Willy and there's zero guarantee that a vig even exists.

[Ouroboros]

In games with a vig, uh, no?

[Ouroboros]

final answer
I would lean it a few percentage points towards it being his town meta although this result isn't especially conclusive
definitely enough to not want to lynch him today, yall can clusterfuck him later in the game when me and anony are gone if you want

@Ramcius???????????????????????????????????????????????????/
How the fuck is he scum trying to take advantage of miller claims in what way does claiming that as scum take advantage of miller claims?

[Ouroboros]

strong town: Alchemist21, Davesaz (note davesaz's contingency on wilky flip, its the main reason he's here)
medtown: Man with no name
weaktown: Mariar, Kaede Akamatsu, Tchill13

null: other people

more than slightly scummy but not really deserving of same category as hebichan: Ramcius
scummy: Hebichan
vscum: Wilky

[Ouroboros]

I'm derailing wagons that aren't necessarily on scum, yeah, I guess?

Also I'm shifting gears, Hebichan scumgame in Play The Hits was not quite what I was expecting and this game is just weak from her regardless of alignment.
It's no longer something explicitly in her scum meta fmpov so I'm going to put Ramcius as my #2 pick for scum and just say Hebichan is still null and needs to do more.

if Tchill is town, and wilky scum this is pretty telling tbh.

For who in particular?

I think Ramcius for sure, a few others are maybes

[Ouroboros]

Verylazy I'm at least somewhat concerned about being SvS but I don't want to fall into the trap of just saying everyone who is wrong is scum here

[Ouroboros]

? ? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ?? ? ?

Why would he just not claim it if that was an issue on his radar? Why would he ever be getting protection from investigative roles when he explicitly claimed something that doesn't require investigative roles?

You're just scum pushing a mislynch to distract from Wilky here well over 90% of the time.

[Ouroboros]

Hey, aren't you going to the Great Fairy's shrine near the north gate?

[Ouroboros]

[Ouroboros]

You can have wagons go places tomorrow, I want to get momentum and lynch scum.

My current WIM for strongarming town into doing my bidding is at an all time low and I want to strike while the iron is hot and not allow scumwilky to lurk until people forget him in favour of newer, more exciting wagons.

[Ouroboros]

I mean wilky's still scum most of the time but

that ramcius wagon is so, so tempting

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Ramcius

sure let's have it your way

[Ouroboros]

Wilky is a legendary tier information lynch at this point but meh I would rather lynch the person who is 90% scum vs the person who is like 70ish%

[Ouroboros]

This seems like such an easy way to hop on to my wagon but brush your hands off any backlash once I flip town.

VOTE: Ramcius

Maybe, or maybe i just got ML'ed D1 way too many times for going against strong vocal players

P-edit: RC, i don't have gladiator role this time, so i can't change your opinion on me

But I wasn't trying to lynch you until you gladiated someone that I was townreading?

[Ouroboros]

It occurs to me my reads have been too Wilkyscum dependent. If wilky is not scum they're effectively meaningless since so many of them are based off of gamestate reads that assume he's scum.
I'm getting cold feet right now about that read so I'm going to restart for a bit. Ramcius is very scummy independent of anyone else so is a good starting ground

Huh? You were strongarming wagon on me, after gladiate you said i'm town and didn't voted, it was funny, whew Kiana in next page asked where's your vote on me

Meh I don't remember it very clearly I won't contest your memory of what hapepned.

[Ouroboros]

Ventriloquist also extraordinarily scummy opener
Ramcius pretty scummy

:shrug:

scumreading too many people, I guess I'll just hope that the outrageously scummy ones are in fact scum

ima check if what I'm seeing here is incompatible with Ramcius's town meta because if it isn't I might vote Ventrlioquist

Apologies hydra slip

Uh it's a bunch of things

the way you talk to ramcius
the way you go from Tchill's claim has no scum motivation -> jester as opposed to some sort of scum
the innate waffling, the way you feel like you're making a show of demanding input as opposed to any real throught process

[Ouroboros]

ayy our boi has 0 Ramcius has 0 scum games to fall back on. At least, uh, I kinda feel like the stuff I'm scumreading him for is stuff that wasn't present in either of our past games?

[Ouroboros]

Do you think there are two millers in this game?

In my last GIF game a miller claimed, I pmed GIF 'so who is the second miller', then someone else fakeclaimed miller.

Then I deathtunneled one of them to get lots of reactions and had the game mostly solved D1

[Ouroboros]

Err I'm drunk or something. SOMEON EELSE REAL CLAIMED MILLER.

[Ouroboros]

Why would you assume that I'm reading everyone as scum for reaction purposes as opposed to thinking that I'm scum or thinking that I'm town who is just going full blown harakiri mode on everyone.

Worthy of consideration, sure or not sure, but it's a strange thing to bring up and it says a lot about your thought processes.

[Ouroboros]

I think Ramcius scumflip heavily townspews Wilky and likely Tchill as well
I was in fact reaction testing Ventriloquist, response was okay enough I guess.

[Ouroboros]

HAHA JUST KIDDING

VOTE: ventriloquist

happy birthday motherfucker

[Ouroboros]

I take back literally everything I've said in my last several posts regardless of what it was

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Ramcius

srsly tho

[Ouroboros]

I wish everyone townread me for effortposting and trying to gamesolve early, it would make my life so much easier.

[Ouroboros]

Nero if I'm scum I can mislynch you for free and no one will care.

I thought Willy had decent scum equity so I wagoned him, didn't like how the game progressed, and decided there were better lynches.

It's also pretty disingenuous of you to say that my Willy vote was bandwagony when I voted him first and bailed when he was at L-2.

If you want to pick this fight with us have at it but you gain nothing from it regardless of either of our alignments besides you getting lynched.

[Ouroboros]

The Ventriloquist vote was basically just a meme.

[Ouroboros]

It's not punishment, it's needing to keep myself alive.

I've learned from games like the newbies we were in: I can't start lynching scum until the people who are going to shit wagon me are dead, so I lynch them first so I can go after entrenched scum without getting lynched for it.

You have scumread me in an absurd amount of games for you to not have learned better about your approach to me.

[Ouroboros]

If you want to be able to stand a chance of lynching me as scum you first have to establish that you can townread me as town.

If you are town now would be a good time to start.

[Ouroboros]

I don't know her alignment yet but as soon as I do you will know.

[Ouroboros]

I'm trying not to force reads. Over the last few months most of the things I was wrong about we're when my first read was fuck if I know then I over thought it and tried to wrench a read from nothing and ended up convinced in wrong reads that I had to sell even to myself.

Let me play my way please.

[Ouroboros]

Oh and again if you think she's scum that already confirms me as town unless over the next three days I claim a guilty and she gets lynched. Then I can actually be scum

[Ouroboros]

No I'm pretty sure everyone agreed it was the way they claimed not the claim itself. Can I persuade you to help me run up Ramcius?

[Ouroboros]

Uhhh. I was in that game. Besides that game I have an 100% record reading him and I did my homework here. Pls trusterino.

[Ouroboros]

I'll figure out if he's town.

[Ouroboros]

What feels fishy? You think I'm scum pushing him?

[Ouroboros]

Please be specific on which votes you're referring to?

Sure, that's true, but given all that like we got Willy to l2 almost effortlessly and this Ramcius push has gotten far less traction.

I also feel like this is less a case of rubbing people wrong and more very specific scummy things that he did.

[Ouroboros]

I mean you're entitled to those feelings but I intend to ram (no pun intended) this through if you don't give me something more substantial

[Ouroboros]

You're town right?

[Ouroboros]

Townreads

Tchill
Davesaz
Alchemist21
Hebichan
Our slot obvobv

Lazy townreads

Dunnstral

[Ouroboros]

I literally haven't been able to post this game much because of work, please wait for me to actually get in this game more. geezus.

I'm actually invested in this game and looking about.

I don't think tchill is scum, and I don't like how alchemist was fishing for roles.

I don't see scum unprompted claiming hider.

This felt towny enough from Hebi and I also started liking some of her earlier posts more.
Dunnstral is a lazy townread, I don't think he's substanstively more likely to be town.

I was also considering putting Nero in lazy townreads pile ftr.

[Ouroboros]

Alchemist I understand why you scumread him cuz I get icky pings but his meta is pretty clear that this is his towngame.

[Ouroboros]

I have too many scumreads in the semiactives to think that it would be productive for me to make a list of scumreads besides Ramcius.

People in this game need to step up the posting, I was hoping to solve this game before the weekend

[Ouroboros]

I think that he's town but the specific way that he posts is something I've seen a lot from midrange scum where (a bunch of things) but yes meta makes him town.

[Ouroboros]

i could hop on wilky wagon but i want to resolve tchill first

I think some of that shade splattered on my coat...

@verylazy

- Explain.

VOTE: verylazy

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Ok my partner wants to pressure verylazy but don't all derail Ramcius please he's still scum and the more people who stay on him the less I gotta burn my mental energy to kill him.

[Ouroboros]

This is Kaede she may or may not be scum but it's barely AI

Not sure how you think this is the most productive way to spend D1

[Ouroboros]

Why would you do that

Why don't you trust me to protect you from being lynched

Alchemist it was never about what he did but about the scumminess of the rationale he provided for the Tchill read.

Having a plausible explanation for something doesn't make him locktown

[Ouroboros]

You were never the NK, protectives would have been on me, easy game

Now I'm basically guaranteed N1

[Ouroboros]

Ok my partner wants to pressure verylazy but don't all derail Ramcius please he's still scum and the more people who stay on him the less I gotta burn my mental energy to kill him.

I was going back because I forgot the name of the scummy guy I was voting before. I have no name and no memory for names.

VOTE: Ramcius

10/10 post

[Ouroboros]

Why would you do that

Why don't you trust me to protect you from being lynched

Alchemist it was never about what he did but about the scumminess of the rationale he provided for the Tchill read.

Having a plausible explanation for something doesn't make him locktown

I'm not calling him locktown, I'm just saying I can see how what he did could come from Town and it's nowhere near as scummy as I originally thought especially considering his record for getting himself mislynched D1.

Do I need to go back and point out that in Timeshift and Kingdom Hearts I locktowned him very early while he was getting scumread by the whole playerlist?

Or can you take my word on that?

I have no issues reading lynchbait

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Ventriloquist

Actually can I get team support here this intrigues me

[Ouroboros]

That's the problem, man with no name

Or at least, it's one of them.

[Ouroboros]

Fucking dunnstral

[Ouroboros]

Well there goes literally any hope of me living to D2 so that's nice.

[Ouroboros]

Kappa

[Ouroboros]

Okay now open to sheeping anony on verylazy that 0 info townread on Ventriloquist was pretty disgusting

[Ouroboros]

Acknowledging having read full post

Thinking about it

Clarify man with no name and Ventriloquist townreads please

[Ouroboros]

Alright so
Me and Anony are going to try to get on the same page
I have very good reasons for wanting to lynch Ventriloquist, I'd appreciate more support there since there's value in me being able to get the wagon while still keeping my cards close to my chest.
If we can't come to an agreement on that we'll find someone else to lynch I guess.

[Ouroboros]

I'm unsure what you want me to go into more detail about; the post is pretty self-explanatory. Wilky was moderately awkward and scummy to the point where I'd like to wagon him, but before I did that, I wanted to get an answer from Tchill, which I still don't have.

It's self-explanatory in that it's basically shade, especially since you're vote hasn't moved since page one. It also implies that you have a higher scum read than Wilky, but haven't voted for them.

/coughs/

if this is new, it's town; if it's an alt, it's scum. unsure which rn.

/coughs/

Can you pinpoint in your own words why Wilky was moderately scummy? Who among the player list is a higher scum read than Wilky? Is MWNN a higher scum read than Wilky ATM?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Oh look! We leveled up to a Goon. :3

[Ouroboros]

At no point in this game have I said anything about your activity levels, though I do suppose you may be intentionally scum lurking. I mean you're lurking, that's not why you're scum.

Ouroboros' attempt to create pressure with very minimal reasoning is not really giving me much to work with, although I can't say I'm surprised that you want to pull apart a new player's behaviour. It unnerves me because you say you are keeping cards close to your chest whilst simultaneously defending a player that has given us no reason to believe they are town at all, Tchill.

You're correct I'm not giving you much to work with, but I assure you that's nothing to do with you. I have several strong reads for who your buddies are and want to see what they do before it becomes 100% clear that you're going to be the lynch today. As a result I am holding off on several of the stronger points that I want to make.

You're also playing the newb card and implying that I'm pushing you because you're new, which is blatantly untrue.

'defending a player who has given us no reason to believe they are town at all' is how scum describe their scumreads, not town.

My only other scum reads so far were on Ramacius & MWNN, as both were very fickle and kept changing their votes without offering any good reason for doing so. This to me suggests an uneasyness when under pressure in the former case and a desire to please the supposedly protown mascot, Ouroboros in the latter.

Interestingly, MWNN was willing to vote most of the people that I voted but he waffled then made an excuse for not voting you: what do you think that shows?

also don't see how different my activity is from players that also havent had time to add much substance yet, like Hebichan & REALMEN. I will add my reads to the discussion as and when I sense them, until that point any probing on my part will look forced.

It will 'look' forced or it will 'be' forced? You're again making this an activity issue when it clearly isn't.

@Ouroboros, you were suspicious of my thought process on Tchill (by suggesting he could be jester, i.e. misconstued to suggest we shouldn't vote for him ) yet you're not scumreading Tchill, a bit of an alignment disconnect don't you think?

Not in the slightest: 'this person is acting weird and scummy -> I think they are jester' is an extremely scummy thought process.
Typical newbplay is to assume anything weird or different is weird or different because it's scum, but you seem to already know that he's not weird or scummy because scum: why?
You are also trying to convince ME that I am scum and that is extremely scummy too: look at the phrasing of this.

[Ouroboros]

RC

All I really want to know in light of that is how much weight you put behind the points on him you've already stated.

I might be willing to go back to sheeping, but I want to be sure that it's worth not gunning for a slot that I think is highly likely to flip scum.

If you think that MWNN is scum it should at the very least intrigue you that MWNN followed me on several votes but then got cold feet and waffled when I tried to vote Ventriloquist.

[Ouroboros]

This wagon movement on Ventriloquist is kind of sketchy.

What's sketchy about it, dunn?

[Ouroboros]

When did the Ventriloquist read come down to 'he is inactive'? At what point in the game did I comment on Ventriloquist's activity before he suggested that was the reason for my read?

That's a pretty hefty misrepresentation of my play coming immediately after I just pointed out that my read on him was independent of inactivity.

One might even think that you have an agenda that benefits from discrediting my scumread on Ventriloquist!

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Ventriloquist

Actually can I get team support here this intrigues me

Why Ventriloquist?

He's barely a blip on my mental RADAR right now.

That's the problem, man with no name

Or at least, it's one of them.

That makes alot of sense, actually.

I'm not ready to move my vote just yet, though.

Wraith
Ankamius
Dunnstral
Impossibear
Ventriloquist
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE

So, by the way, here is my issue with Ventriloquist vote right now. These slots all fall into the same "barely a blip on the RADAR" place.

I would like to see anything resembling actually playing the game from all these slots. Maybe Dunnstral does not belong on here.

I got tired of following a town read rather than pursuing my own reads, especially when the Ventriloquist read came down to "He's inactive".

Just because you're obvtown, doesn't mean you are always right, RC. You should have learned that by now.

Also, here's your read development on Ventriloquist.

You point out that you don't really have a read on him
I point out that it's scummy that you don't have a read on him
You agree but point out that there are other people that you don't have a read on
you start talking about how I'm not always right and spinning my read as being 'he is inactive'

When I said he's barely a blip on my radar, you said responded with. "That's the problem."

That's when I stopped sheeping you.

If you thought I meant something different, I was saying it was an inactive slot.

I might not have been clear before that, I now realize.

I said that purely to get you aboard the wagon and not because it was my personal reason for the scumread. I had already brought up other stuff earlier.

I'm also not mandating that everyone sheep me because I'm super hot and sexy and wear cowboy boots, but I found the specific manner of your not doing so strange, feeling the need to point out that there were other lurkers, it's just a very strange way to approach the wagon. If you are town you can look back and understand why I think your approach is weird completely independent of the fact that you didn't vote with me, particularly given lots of other people didn't vote with me but I didn't scumread them.

[Ouroboros]

Like: if you agree with me that Ventriloquist is doing nothing and needs to start doing something, shouldn't you at the very least be enthusiastic about wagoning him to force him to do something?
You're also voting another person on your another blip on the radar list, so idk.

Ankamius is several percentage points above rand and I totally agree with the read that Hebi has so idk what your issue is Dunn.

[Ouroboros]

At no point in this game have I said anything about your activity levels, though I do suppose you may be intentionally scum lurking. I mean you're lurking, that's not why you're scum.

Ouroboros' attempt to create pressure with very minimal reasoning is not really giving me much to work with, although I can't say I'm surprised that you want to pull apart a new player's behaviour. It unnerves me because you say you are keeping cards close to your chest whilst simultaneously defending a player that has given us no reason to believe they are town at all, Tchill.

You're correct I'm not giving you much to work with, but I assure you that's nothing to do with you. I have several strong reads for who your buddies are and want to see what they do before it becomes 100% clear that you're going to be the lynch today. As a result I am holding off on several of the stronger points that I want to make.

You're also playing the newb card and implying that I'm pushing you because you're new, which is blatantly untrue.

'defending a player who has given us no reason to believe they are town at all' is how scum describe their scumreads, not town.

My only other scum reads so far were on Ramacius & MWNN, as both were very fickle and kept changing their votes without offering any good reason for doing so. This to me suggests an uneasyness when under pressure in the former case and a desire to please the supposedly protown mascot, Ouroboros in the latter.

Interestingly, MWNN was willing to vote most of the people that I voted but he waffled then made an excuse for not voting you: what do you think that shows?

also don't see how different my activity is from players that also havent had time to add much substance yet, like Hebichan & REALMEN. I will add my reads to the discussion as and when I sense them, until that point any probing on my part will look forced.

It will 'look' forced or it will 'be' forced? You're again making this an activity issue when it clearly isn't.

@Ouroboros, you were suspicious of my thought process on Tchill (by suggesting he could be jester, i.e. misconstued to suggest we shouldn't vote for him ) yet you're not scumreading Tchill, a bit of an alignment disconnect don't you think?

Not in the slightest: 'this person is acting weird and scummy -> I think they are jester' is an extremely scummy thought process.
Typical newbplay is to assume anything weird or different is weird or different because it's scum, but you seem to already know that he's not weird or scummy because scum: why?
You are also trying to convince ME that I am scum and that is extremely scummy too: look at the phrasing of this.

If the thing that bothers you about me is other player activity, then why don't you address them? You say it's too soon to reveal your other suspects whilst also accusing MWNN in your next point.

I don't think it's unjustified to say you're pushing me because you're not familiar with me, by being alarmist your trying to see how I react to pressure.

You've stated that you're definitely going to be N1 kill, like you're trying to double bluff and insure yourself should you remain alive on day 2. This doesn't strike me as transparent behaviour - all these 'cards against your chest' remarks are not indictive of a good townie, regardless of your alignment and it's much easier for people to get on board with you as trustworthy when you aren't claiming to hide so much in the next breath.

You've pulled me up on my lack of definites, I can understand this at least. To this I can only say I don't like to accuse outright unless I have a strong lead, just because I have less conviction in my analysis it doesn't invalidate it. I'm also not trying to convince anyone that your scum, just that you've honed in on me and can't see anything but what you want to at this stage.

I will try and post some more tomorrow but I have a job interview to prepare for so don't count on it. Thursday evening I should be around more and will try to contribute to discussion actively rather than spending the whole time defending myself.

1) This is a scum defense in general and I say that on a comprehensive view.
2) What do you mean double bluff and insure myself? I am going to be dead N1. That's just facts. No reason Kaede needed to IC herself but when she did that I was guaranteed dead.
3) I called you out very little on your lack of definites. I could call you up for literally never scumhunting for sure but that's barely even a part of my post.



Also just in general: has anyone noticed that so, so many people have expressed scumreads on Ventriloquist then failed to follow up on them with a vote?

[Ouroboros]

Oh and MWNN is just one of many people that I'm concerned about, why shouldn't I test his reaction?

[Ouroboros]

@ManWithNoName

- Are you scum reading Jungle for his lack of AI posts?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@ManWithNoName

- Are you scum reading Jungle for his lack of AI posts?

Ghost

I do believe that is the best way to phrase it. He reads in a way that he's not trying to game solve, he's just trying to not give away any information. That's enough to earn a scum read from me.

This sounds more like a policy lynch than a scum lynch.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@ManWithNoName

Do you still hold your stance that Jungle isn't trying to game solve, despite the vote on Impossibear?

@Jungle

Is it safe to assume you're voting for your scum read i.e Impossibear?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: verylazy

let's manwagon this eevee instead!

bad

catching up again

[Ouroboros]

I thought Jungle was katsuki but this doesn't feel like Katsuki so

[Ouroboros]

Okay so I'm locking in here

Ventriloquist is lockscum
Impossibear is lockscum
MWNN is probably scum

VOTE: Ventriloquist

[Ouroboros]

Verylazy is town being wagoned by scum as a counterwagon to scum!Ventriloquist

The fact that people are defending him says a lot
Impossibear comes in with 'scared of wagon speed' even though I've been hard pushing them for days and have gotten absolutely zero results from anyone.
Also the fact that the way that Jingle talked about me as coming across as town with no skill is always a scumpost.

*sigh* Didyou even attempt to understand my post? I am trying to work with you.

I read all your posts, I just didn't get the things from it that you apparently wanted. You should have just bussed Ventriloquist.

[Ouroboros]

Please don't skip reading these - I have a lot of discussion I missed and would like to engage with people about several posts, plus I put a lot of time and work into reading this game in-depth rather than skimming so...

I actually skipped reading those, until I actually went to read those, and REAL MEN says that ETL is scum!

Why is real men helping scum powerwagon town if you are scumreading ETL?

[Ouroboros]

Like Impossibear is being loud and reasonable and this isn't going to be like Heartless, I really don't care enough to brute force town into not playing like shit.

But when you lynch town and I get nightkilled you're lynching those three in order and getting at minimum 2/3 scumflips.

[Ouroboros]

Posting some weak ass reads list and then saying "ETL is scum" without an actual argument is bullshit and I'm not going to respond to nonsense.

@Impossibear

Is posting a reads list without an actual argument a reason why you scum reading Jungle?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Time flows differently when you are undergoing Peak Performance Raybells (TM)

i don't care anymore. i wasn't trying to get you to get anything. i was trying to discuss my reads with you.

whatever.

I believe that if you were town you would be trying to discuss my reads. I'm sorry but you're scum hard pushing wincon and I'm not obligated to respond in a reasonable fashion as a result.
If you'd bussed I'd at least make a show of working with you?

[Ouroboros]

so you vote town because you're not 'man' enough to cope with resistance on lynching scum?

fuck off. jingle was clearly wrong about you. and i'm the one who said you had no skill. i see i was right. go away.

fuck off both of you. idiots.

towns these days are garbage. i don't know why i bother with discussion.

wait didn't someone just say this is what you do as scum

[Ouroboros]

Posting some weak ass reads list and then saying "ETL is scum" without an actual argument is bullshit and I'm not going to respond to nonsense.

@Impossibear

Is posting a reads list without an actual argument a reason why you scum reading Jungle?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I don't have the energy to play good little townie while simultaneously trying to lynch scum with the time I have in thread.

My enjoyability as a mafia player is a function of how much mental energy I have to burn pushing wagons and what's left for me to try to work with people.

[Ouroboros]

@ManWithNoName

Do you still hold your stance that Jungle isn't trying to game solve, despite the vote on Impossibear?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Reaction is probably extremely indicative one way or the other
I'll table that read and meta dive her games and see what I think later

Ventriloquist is still scum, more townies need to vote them since pretty obviously scum are never going to vote them at this point.

[Ouroboros]

Tentative skim of c9++ suggests that she can fake far more difficult emotionality than this and she trips up on the logic so I'm actually inclined to ignore it and stick with my previous read
but at the same time the rage didn't come close to coming out in that game. So it's plausibly not the direction she typically goes as scum
@Jungle do you think that the rage is specifically scum indicative, do you think it's just an ETL thing, or do you think that it leans town indicative?

[Ouroboros]

I mean I think she can 100% fake it if she can fake some of the appeals she did to Anti. The specific timing of the rage does feel more likely to come from scum here.
But my cursory analysis of her games has not shown a single example of rage from scum!ETL and I'd be interested in seeing some examples of this and comparing them

Ours.

Ouro, I believe you are town. I also believe you are way off track here. When bad town starts running the game, it becomes clear that we have already lost.

I don't have the energy to deal with this, and it has completely killed my motivation to game solve. I tried to work with you. You didn't even try to discuss with me. You're so fucking focused on your narcissistic belief that you must be right, you are completely blinded to anything else. I hope you get over that sometime soon.

I'm honestly done reading this game. I was really excited about the flavor and especially once I got some solid town reads, but when your biggest town read refuses to even have a discussion, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. I'm not interested in doing that.

ETL

If I'm wrong on Ventriloquist and am still alive tomorrow I'll back the fuck off but I don't think that Ventriloquist flips town.

[Ouroboros]

I don't have the energy to deal with this, and it has completely killed my motivation to game solve. I tried to work with you. You didn't even try to discuss with me. You're so fucking focused on your narcissistic belief that you must be right, you are completely blinded to anything else. I hope you get over that sometime soon.

I'm honestly done reading this game. I was really excited about the flavor and especially once I got some solid town reads, but when your biggest town read refuses to even have a discussion, it's like hitting your head against a brick wall. I'm not interested in doing that.

ETL

@ETL

- Take a break. Have a snack. And then come back to the discussion. We roughly have 11 days until the deadline is upon us.

I'll take a look at what you have on Wraith, see if it holds any weight.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Fine, whatever.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I don't like being a leader anyway

Gimme a reads list, or at least, a lynch pool.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Bro u don't know the first thing about RC scum

Didn't you say you were townreading me because of anony?

[Ouroboros]

@ManWithNoName

- Can't remember if you said anything about this.

Does TChill13 hard claiming as a Hider affect your read on him? Albeit a very unusual hider who can't die if he targets scum.

Wait -

@TChill13

- In a JK9++ game I played in, the Hider would die if they hid behind a 3rd party i.e. Serial Killer.

Since you won't die if you hide behind scum - a term that can include mafia and the SK -, I think it'd be reasonable to assume that you wouldn't die if you hid behind a 3rd party.

What are your thoughts TChill?

This assumes that this game even contains 3rd party in the first place. If not, then forget that idea.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

No dice Ventriloquist or feed, Ventriloquist or afk, etc.

[Ouroboros]

If she's as good as scum as me she doesn't lose c9++

That said I was rather impressed by her scum play in general

[Ouroboros]

Every time I throw reads at anony she shrugs at me in discord

[Ouroboros]

The question is never can she do it as scum because it's not hard

The question is -does- she do it as scum as opposed to something else

[Ouroboros]

Oh I was just meming, I was in that game you dolt

I will not take a stance on the issue but I think you regardless of.how good ETL is heavily underestimate me

[Ouroboros]

Everyone underestimates me because my approach is so alien

There's a reason every game dead thread talks about how obvious scum I am and how frequent the refrain of I didn't play that well / deserve that win comes out. I think to fully appreciate me you have to understand me and if anyone did they'd be able to read me, so.

My playstyle isn't about being as towny as possible and lay viewpoints on scum are that the person who was the least scumread is best scum. And that's where ETL seems very good but can she do all the other things?

Hi Jingle I'm not even wagoning you, okay

I just want ventriloquist dead

[Ouroboros]

Im reminded of a game with shos and Titus where dick measuring was brought up

Anyway I'm not interested in arguing who is better scum. Ik interested in killing Ventriloquist.

[Ouroboros]

How badly am I allowed to burden of proficiency you on Ventriloquist scumflip?

[Ouroboros]

You claim best town player in this game.

Assuming I'm right and Ventriloquist flips scum, how should I interpret that flip as it pertains to your alignment?

[Ouroboros]

Cya, uh, yeah I got nothing.

[Ouroboros]

Are you like nancy's evil twin

[Ouroboros]

I'm not maintaining it, last question was asked solely for AI reasons.

How can I persuade you to help me with Ventriloquist Kaede?

[Ouroboros]

Maria if you don't have a strong read one way or the other I'd appreciate it if you sheeped someone who does aka me.

[Ouroboros]

<3<3<3

[Ouroboros]

who are your SRs?

[Ouroboros]

@Impossibear

- Bullet point your cases against these people? Especially Wraith please?

Maybe Scum

Ankamius
tchill
MWNN
realmen

Strong Scum

Wraith

Realmen sounds more like a policy vote/lynch IIRC and I believe one of the points you made against RMJ was that he threw out a reads list without explanation. Is this the same reason why Ank is in the "maybe scum" category as well? I recall that you did mention that about Ank.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

@Impossibear

- You seem to have missed my conversation with MWNN about his lynch pile. He did happen to explain why his vote flipped from verylazy to Ven.

Nice appeal to fear though.

Talk to me about about the shotgun spray of votes and how some people have dropped off the face of the earth. Looking at all the wagons, how does this reinforce your reads?

I don't share RC's town read on verylazy, in fact they are in my lynch pool since they've been sitting on the Tchill vote since page one. I also agree with your points against Ank and believe that they are valid.

Thanks for posting the VC.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Pedit'd~ :3

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

I backed off on Ventriloquist because I regretted actually showing that scumread because I wanted to see how he'd develop without me doing anything.

I later decided I was sure enough that he was scum and I just went for it.

[Ouroboros]

Pls understand that the perceived inconsistency is if anything a towntell, I can have perfect progression as scum with relatively little effort.

I am gonna respond to all the bear stuff at some point just not rn.

[Ouroboros]

because right now it looks like ventriloquist is being wagoned by a stubborn towny and scum are happy to let it happen.

I hope you're not too blind to see that.

This is the appeal to fear that I'm referring to.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

But you just accepted it because it fit what you wanted to have happen.

This implies that you think I have an agenda I want to push - me, Ghost, not RC.

So, in your opinion, what outcome did I want to happen?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Mmm.

Fair enough.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

No, I haven't had the time to sit down and analyze your points against Wraith yet. Phone posting is inconvient for that. I will make time later!

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Yes, you want to lynch Ventriloquist because you believe he is scum. That is the agenda. Am I wrong?

Ah. My bad.

I thought you were referring to MWNN. Sorry. I should have specified.

You'll have to talk to RC about Ven. I don't completely understand it myself.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

when "shade" is a pointless buzzword that means nothing other than "having more than one scumread and saying you lean scum on a player that you aren't voting when someone says you should give an opinion on said player" yes, what I did was shade.

No.

Shade in the fact that you both some them as scummy, but didn't push or try to figure your reads out on either slot.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

i could hop on wilky wagon but i want to resolve tchill first

This is basically hedging your bets on one or the other if or when a flip occurs and that is what I'm referring to as shade. Admittedly, your lack of a push could be because you've been absent, but your TChill vote came from page one, which was obviously before TChill claimed hider.

So, what is there left to resolve about TChill?

Ghost

Pedit:

Hmm?

I don't necessarily agree with all of RC's lynch pool, if that's what you're referring to?

[Ouroboros]

I'll do this but I don't feel like efforting so the efforting can wait.

It's a lot less mentally strenuous to push things than it is to talk about them.

[Ouroboros]

FWIW I hold the opposite opinion of RC on 654.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Fucking alt slips.

[Ouroboros]

I don't recall taking them up on that fight as much as I felt like contradicting the stuff coming out of RMOJ whose identity I think I now know

[Ouroboros]

You can fuck right off with asking people to cop us.

I have a hydra partner whom you can read and I absolutely do not have anywhere near the mental commitment towards this game to be willing to coach her.
I am a universal townread for a reason: I thought I was a townread for you as well. If you want a bloody 1v1 then this is how you get a bloody 1v1.
Get paranoid of me if I'm still alive a few days into the game. Not on D1 when I'm trying to solve the game.

[Ouroboros]

ETL you have displayed absolutely zero respect for my reads earlier, my scumread on Ventriloquist or my own ability to look into the wagon.
If you don't understand why I am scumreading the slot then you certainly shouldn't be saying shit about me being oblivious to the development of the wagon.
I echo the same general ideas that Alchemist had about the way they talk to me being extremely scum leaning but I have very specific ideas here as opposed to Alchemist's vague idea.

Also in defense of Ventriloquist, you've cited MWNN and RMOJ as your reasons for opposing the wagon development.
This doesn't pan out well because although they are voting, neither of their votes are particularly enthusiastic in a way that signifies that they couldn't be scum bussing.

RealMenOnlyJungle has several times after he joined the wagon tried to be like HEY LETS WAGON VERYLAZY INSTEAD.
MWNN took a lot of prompting and comments about his likeliness of being aligned with Ventriloquist before he decided to vote there and hasn't specifically pushed it himself.

Your engagement with me has also been fundamentally monodirectional: rather than trying to understand why my read is what it is you've gotten mad at me for not sharing your reads and been like HEY YOU SHOULD BE READING THIS INSTEAD. I'm not going to claim to be perfect town. But when you make a list of people who can read you and then say that you're a better scum player it makes me extremely skeptical of your ability to fairly judge how good you are: there is literally no one on this site who can claim that they can read me among several people who have told me they've read every single game I've played, and I have one of the largest bodies of work of anyone on this site.

I'm not townreading lazy worth shit: it's completely null. I simply think that the wagon on them is highly liable to be a scum counterwagon.

When bad town starts running the game, it becomes clear that we have already lost.

Don't fail to make any mental effort to appreciate why I'm scumreading a slot then call me bad town for faiing to scumread it, assuming you're town.

Never, ever, ever fail to lynch this slot tomorrow if (when) Ventriloquist flips scum. Don't cop them, don't investigate them, don't discuss with them, just quicklynch them.

[Ouroboros]

ETL you have displayed absolutely zero respect for my reads earlier, my scumread on Ventriloquist or my own ability to look into the wagon.
If you don't understand why I am scumreading the slot then you certainly shouldn't be saying shit about me being oblivious to the development of the wagon.
I echo the same general ideas that Alchemist had about the way they talk to me being extremely scum leaning but I have very specific ideas here as opposed to Alchemist's vague idea.

Also in defense of Ventriloquist, you've cited MWNN and RMOJ as your reasons for opposing the wagon development.
This doesn't pan out well because although they are voting, neither of their votes are particularly enthusiastic in a way that signifies that they couldn't be scum bussing.

RealMenOnlyJungle has several times after he joined the wagon tried to be like HEY LETS WAGON VERYLAZY INSTEAD.
MWNN took a lot of prompting and comments about his likeliness of being aligned with Ventriloquist before he decided to vote there and hasn't specifically pushed it himself.

Your engagement with me has also been fundamentally monodirectional: rather than trying to understand why my read is what it is you've gotten mad at me for not sharing your reads and been like HEY YOU SHOULD BE READING THIS INSTEAD. I'm not going to claim to be perfect town. But when you make a list of people who can read you and then say that you're a better scum player it makes me extremely skeptical of your ability to fairly judge how good you are: there is literally no one on this site who can claim that they can read me among several people who have told me they've read every single game I've played, and I have one of the largest bodies of work of anyone on this site.

I'm not townreading lazy worth shit: it's completely null. I simply think that the wagon on them is highly liable to be a scum counterwagon.

When bad town starts running the game, it becomes clear that we have already lost.

Don't fail to make any mental effort to appreciate why I'm scumreading a slot then call me bad town for faiing to scumread it, assuming you're town.

Never, ever, ever fail to lynch this slot tomorrow if (when) Ventriloquist flips scum. Don't cop them, don't investigate them, don't discuss with them, just quicklynch them.

Pagetopping this.

[Ouroboros]

he was awkward and scummy tonally

Ick.

I hate tone reads. They're basically like gut reads and a lynch-bait thing to have as the foundation of your scum read on someone.

I don't have a huge amount of scumreads so far this game. One of wilky and tchill is probably scum, MWNN is scummy too and probably more so than wilky at this point. Unsure what to make of the impossibear and jungle thing.

So...? Let me summarize this so that I can understand it....

Wilky is probs scum cause of awkward and "scummy" tone, but TChill might be scum too! But MWNN is scummier than Wilky (and probably TChill?), but I'm still vote sitting on TChill all the

way from

PAGE ONE RVS

!

And then, there's this...

for what it's worth this probably means tchill and mwnn aren't both scum.

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

ISO'd lazy's posts again - specifically following their push on TChill.

@lazy

So your page one RVS vote on TChill was just RVS, but then became a push once TChill hard claimed Hider and now you want more information from him. Is that correct? Why is TChill's role name important to find out?

Ghost

[Ouroboros]

Sure, I guess.

Do you think I'm too incompetent as scum to have a clear linear read progression?

[Ouroboros]

Right so Nero is town far, far above rand as of right now.

I'm going to just treat the Impossibear hydra as confirmed scum, they're only like 75% scum to my estimation as of right now but ETL's moves here are straight scumbuddy, particularly when given she confirmed that she doesn't bus. I reiterate my strongly worded request that they be lynched tomorrow regardless of anything else that happens. Don't blow investigative powers if we have any on them, just get rid of them. Even if they're town, they should probably die for how much they're pushing scum wincon and being obstinate as shit about it.

Ventriloquist is >95% scum in my mind: the way they're pushing on me comes from scum always.

If I have to contest Impossibear and make this a bloodbath I will do so and I will win. Jingle regardless of your alignment you know that all you'll do is shit up the game and not fail to prevent Ventriloquist lynch: I am never backing down on this lynch.

And last but not least, play nice people - we are all here to have fun, are we not?

I've had my say so, up to you guys now.

Also, VOTE: MWNN - my nomination, if Ouroboros truly does think he is 'probably' scum then he can prove it.

Not worth the risk: I think this probably points more to you being scumbuddies but I am only like 55% on him being scum so he is the third day lynch.
I also think this is very, very likely to be an attempt to distance but the gamestate is flat out better if we lynch Ventriloquistscum.

[Ouroboros]

Also this is almost always a coached interaction so someone on the scumteam generally knows what they're doing.

[Ouroboros]

You can already see Ouroboros rubbing their hands with this quote - 'When bad town starts running the game, it becomes clear that we have already lost'

this in particular is ridiculously scum indicative

[Ouroboros]

Okay?

[Ouroboros]

Go for it? I'm not making this personal whatsoever. I am simply stating that I am going to ensure the Ventriloquist lynch at all costs.
You are the one who has repeatedly made this game personal with regards to several people and told people to stop addressing you and such, I've just tried to lynch my top scumread.
You're currently declaring an out of game war on me for pushing on you, that's pretty reportable and personal.

[Ouroboros]

I mean you're the one ruining the game for people so if your mission is to improve the quality of the game the best thing you can do is replace out of it pronto.
Or the fact that people wanted to policy lynch you and your friends don't want to push on you because of fear of reprisal didn't indicate that to you?

[Ouroboros]

Also final and pretty damning point against Ventriloquist: why did he wait so long and post all of his major points at once?
Answer: because he posted simplified versions in scum thread and waited for his teammates to be able to review them and improve them.

[Ouroboros]

If Ventriloquist doesn't flip scum obviously my scumread on you is null and void and I have to decide what my read is -associatives.

[Ouroboros]

I'm not, like, locking MariaR in as town

but can you please stop making reads based on associatives with her

[Ouroboros]

I understand what you're seeing here and I want to gutread Alchemist scum but meta very strongly indicates that this is his townplay.

[Ouroboros]

I don't have a fixation on them? They seem to have a fixation on me though.
I make it a 'policy' of lynching people who are very strong players who hard defend scum flips that I feel like ought to have been obvious.

Consider it a mix of burden of proficiencying the both of them and having specific issues with the manner of the defense, feeling like they were deliberately using untruths in the defense, etc. Is it literally impossible that they decided to confbias and derptowntunnel them? No. I don't think that either of them are incompetent enough as scum to ever make a play that I can look to and say yeah this is never going to flip town. But I think that in a bigger picture point of view I have more than enough to go on in terms of thinking that scum ventrilo -> scum bear.

You said we were done talking, I'm done talking, I'm not making a case for your benefit.

[Ouroboros]

It's hard to put it clearly into words but they have a hugely different tone and approach to the game as town and scum and it's consistent across all of their like last 15 games.

[Ouroboros]

I don't expect to live to see any flips.

If this flips scum, I think town does well lynching like {Impossibear, MWNN, Jungle if impossibear town,

wow I just realized how many townreads I have

[Ouroboros]

Okay let's start with


We're town obviously
Kaede town
Nero cain town
Alchemist town
Ankamius town
Wilky town
Ramcius town

davesaz town- maybe negotiable
MariaR I'm leaning town but I respect her enough that until I see what I'm looking for I don't lock this
Tchill feel like scum wouldn't have claimed there but again negotiable

All of these reads are largely unrelated to today's flips

[Ouroboros]

Okay let's start with


We're town obviously
Kaede town: IM NOT 100% SURE ABOUT THIS ONE UT OKY
Nero cain town: seeing a lot of typical town him stuff
Alchemist town: meta
Ankamius town: good gut feels, meta
Wilky town: felt like a town reaction in the long run

Ramcius town- using a tell that actually it just occurs to me failed in a recent game? so I don't want to 100% this
davesaz town- maybe negotiable
MariaR I'm leaning town but I respect her enough that until I see what I'm looking for I don't lock this
Tchill feel like scum wouldn't have claimed there but again negotiable

All of these reads are largely unrelated to today's flips

So then of the remaining players my reads are

Jungle: I can't read what they've done this game. I've had massive pings from them at points, but I know they're gut pingy in general for me if I'm right about who they are (and I am.)
Impossibear: Dealt with this.
ManWithNoName: Mediocre associatives, reasonably good odds of being SvS with
Hebichan: They're kinda meh, I want more from them. I expect they'll be more readable later in the game.
Wraith: Explicitly dislike some of their recent posts, the read I most agree with from bear, I am going to actually meta dive this fairly shortly
verylazy: just bad yea
Dunn: very good scum equity if Ventriloquist flips scum, idk otherwise
Ventriloquist: ick

[Ouroboros]

obviously if hebi keeps doing what they're doing indefinitely powerlynch them
that said I'm pretty okay just saying whatever they can live for a while.

[Ouroboros]

Maria go read dunnstral pls love u

[Ouroboros]

I don't know. I really don't care, literally anything I do on D1 gets me killed eventually, so why bother?

Got some of these vibes from multiple town games now: going to go see if this comes up as scum.

[Ouroboros]

Subject: Mini 1889: Greatest Idea Mafia (Endgame!)

Oh hey another game where I get wagon'd and probably killed D1

Where have I faced this situation before?

Oh wait, every game I've ever played ever. Except The Thing.

Let's get on with it, shall we?

ok NAI at worst, but that feels really fake coming from scum.

hrm.

[Ouroboros]

I tentatively very slightly read Wraith as town but I've seen him perform in town games in ways that I would never misread him and he hasn't performed near to that level yet.

Which is another way of saying do more Wraith.

[Ouroboros]

i'm ngl I townread the shit out of that terrible omgus from ramcius

maybe he ought to have been in top townread category

[Ouroboros]

Oh and uh
The getting personally offended by my scumread on them to the point of threatening me out of game is extremely, extremely scum skewed. People think toxicity leans town, it isn't.
I'm using FA as a baseline for that style of play but I think they do get this offended by me scumreading them correctly since they don't respect me and have repeatedly throughout this game tried to assert moral dominance over me (and being correctly scumread by a 'lesser', particularly me given context, would piss them off) but I'd expect them as town to just want to rub my face in it.

Who knows I might be wrong, but if I'm right on everything town can easily survive their mislynch. I'm not sure town ever lynches them later if I don't make this an issue now.

[Ouroboros]

I do think it's fairly likely, Wraith, that this is an attempt to spew MWNN as town that really hasn't worked out.
If I'm wrong on that, something like Hebi can be scum.

Actually I think hebi is town if Vent is scum
So if/when vent flips scum you're probably town too

So like {Vent/MWNN/{RMOJ/ETLDRA/VERYLAZY/DUNN}

Actually I owe it to the davesaz read to go over all of my scumreads reactions to the double miller claims and see if I think it's plausible that one or both of the millers is scum
also the reactions to tchill but I already think tchill is kinda spewed town by some of these flips but I'll go over that.

[Ouroboros]

VOTE: Realmen only jungle

I'd rather have a wagon here.

wait... my homie... what happened to this?!!?!

at least i'm funny unlike ramcius :^)

I'll give you that one.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

I mean it is fucking awful. I, uh, think that it's more likely to be town awful though?

[Ouroboros]

Like I'd lay off of Impossibear in favour of taking the 2 people that I think might have higher scum flip odds but I know that they aren't going to get lynched if I don't do it.
Unfortunately I haven't spent time on ETL like I have on LLD getting the read to a point where I can just come out with an 100% scumread whenever I'm ready

and I'll never get a read to that point over the course of one game so

[Ouroboros]

Do you remember in our last game when I said in postgame that I was not actually a fan of Alisae bussing me solely for the reason that it made you think that the way that you read me worked?
It doesn't. What you are doing right now in a broader perspective is scumreading me whenever I try to be an impact player.

I need to be able to play like this, I can't afford as town to spend time massaging my read changes and making them look more palatable to you.
The meta that I have played to in this game, even though it gets me mislynched or errantly scumread frequently, is by far my most effective as town.

If I slowed down the game and didn't post reads until I was sure of them my read transitions would be not scummy to you, but it would hurt my ability to develop those reads.
Please don't try to force me to water down my town play in order to not get scumread. I'm not scum and your concern about my read changes heavily leans towards me being town.

If you're comparing to the NSG thing where my read transition was bad... yeah it was... because I wasn't trying to live to endgame.

[Ouroboros]

Oh and the ramcius one I feel pretty certain on: there's little scum motivation in making that read change but I buy him as town being antsy about being misread and omgusing

[Ouroboros]

I don't play like other people.
I was lynchbait when I first came to site because I was honest about my reads and that always reads as scummy because people don't understand how I read people. It's the same reason my meta used to be to just yell that people were scum without explanation.
My natural read transitions will never come across as natural to you. I can deal with that by not explaining my reads and massaging them so I come across like 'other' people or I can play my best like I am here.

I would prefer to play like I am here but if I do somehow get mislynched this game it's time to go back to just yelling what my reads are and not trying to explain them to people.

[Ouroboros]

I don't know what response you want me to give to that. I'll work on convincing other people then.