Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

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Post Post #58 (isolation #0) » Wed May 09, 2018 12:45 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In terms of wanting the wiki page to be updated: if a listmod (most likely implosion or Nexus) gives me new text for the Normal Game page, I can update it. (I was given fairly wide-ranging powers on the wiki a while back in order to help deal with a spambot infestation, but am only supposed to use them to enforce the site rules. Changing pages on the suggestion of a listmod seems close enough.)
Last edited by callforjudgement on Wed May 09, 2018 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Post #60 (isolation #1) » Wed May 09, 2018 1:34 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 9, northsidegal wrote:Did non-standard role PMs and rulesets really add a significant amount of time to the review process? If so, I guess I'll stop talking on that point, but it doesn't seem likely to me.
it was fairly common to approve a setup with a modified role, ask the moderator to give us the role PM for approval, and then the moderator to just disappear for weeks or even months. Apparently many mods really don't like writing role PMs. Having standardised role PMs should help skip that part of the process entirely. (From my point of view it'd be sufficient to have non-binding standardised role PMs, but it looks like the binding version is what was settled on. Not having standardised role PMs available at all is an issue, though.)
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Post Post #62 (isolation #2) » Wed May 09, 2018 1:44 am

Post by callforjudgement »

It's not the NRG's
fault
, as it were. But it makes the Normal queue stall, and the Normal listmods don't like that (and the players who want to play Normals sometimes don't have a game to join).
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Post Post #64 (isolation #3) » Wed May 09, 2018 1:53 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I've been trying to join the wiki standardisation committee for a while but nobody's been letting me in.

As it is, I have basically no idea how much progress you've made because none of it's public and it's not widely talked about. (For example, there are some mistakes you might or might not have made, mostly related to Opens, but I have no way to check if you have or haven't.)
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Post Post #71 (isolation #4) » Wed May 09, 2018 5:42 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 67, AnonymousGhost wrote:How does someone become a normal set up reviewer?
Start by reviewing Theme games (you need to have modded a Large Theme to be able to be counted as a reviewer for one, but there's no restriction for Minis, and you can also "unofficially" review a Large). There's seemingly always a demand for Theme game reviewers. Then when you have a good review record, ask the Normal listmod to join the group. (If you build up a good enough review record, they might even ask you!)

It also helps to mod a Normal or two to become familiar with the review process (and the Normality rules).
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Post Post #74 (isolation #5) » Wed May 09, 2018 6:28 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 73, Alisae wrote:
In post 71, callforjudgement wrote:they might even ask you!
this happens?
I was invited to the NRG. I didn't apply.

I'm not the only person who was invited to the NRG, either.
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Post Post #120 (isolation #6) » Fri May 11, 2018 12:23 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

I'd love to see an automated reviewer.

The problem, though, is that it'd make town setup speculation orders of magnitude more accurate, as town could just run all the known power roles through the reviewer to check for fakeclaims / hidden scum PRs.
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Post Post #132 (isolation #7) » Sun May 13, 2018 12:24 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 130, BBmolla wrote:Can we have a modifier for an activated passive ability? So like a 1-shot Bulletproof but you have to choose the night you become bulletproof, or same thing with ascetic. Or would it be better just to call it a different role?
That was normalised as part of these changes: Activated. (1-Shot Activated Bulletproof does exactly what you're suggesting, as the 1-Shot modifier applies to the Activated activation.)
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Post Post #143 (isolation #8) » Sat May 19, 2018 3:09 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Under current guidelines, we have Activated Innocent Child (triggers on request), and Innocent Child (triggers at the start of D1).

The main weirdness is that you can have an Innocent Child variant that becomes alignment-confirmed at the start of a Night, but not at the start of a Day other than D1.

(Also, Dayvig is not Normal, and IMO should not be Normal. It's a fine role for Themes, but IMO the day should be clearly separate from the night in a Normal.)
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Post Post #145 (isolation #9) » Sun May 20, 2018 6:28 am

Post by callforjudgement »

That would have been greylist, I think, but the greylist just got abolished.
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Post Post #154 (isolation #10) » Sun Jun 24, 2018 10:54 am

Post by callforjudgement »

The
previous
"the Normal rules have changed" thread is still stickied. We probably don't need two threads about Normals changing, one of which is out of date, and I occasionally click on the wrong one by mistake.
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Post Post #156 (isolation #11) » Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:57 am

Post by callforjudgement »

It isn't.

I see it more as an Open modifier than anything; it's so specific you can't really make good use of it without knowing the rest of the setup (nor can other players really interact with it meaningfully).

That said, I would have allowed it as greylist under the old rules, which implies it probably should be whitelisted under the new rules, just in case anyone happens to need it. I can see one potential naming problem, in that "Investigation-Immune" means something else (specifically, it's a Godfather equivalent, not an Ascetic for investigations). That might be fixable though.
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Post Post #166 (isolation #12) » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:24 am

Post by callforjudgement »

You could use a ruleset that had been nonproblematic in, e.g., a Micro or Theme.
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Post Post #175 (isolation #13) » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:02 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Gunsmith is based on flavour.

I don't see it making any flavour sense for a Babysitter to have a gun. (In addition, the Babysitter doesn't kill its target; the flavour is that the person who kills the Babysitter kills the Babysitter's target too.) So I'd personally be against Babysitters having guns.
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Post Post #181 (isolation #14) » Mon Jul 30, 2018 4:53 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 180, Umlaut wrote:Since this was bumped again I'll point out that, as I mentioned elsewhere, named townies don't appear to be explicitly whitelisted.
These are Normals, not Opens (where you know a named townie is in the setup) or Themes (where you can get flavour hints from a name).

The only way a named townie differs from a regular townie is in Rolecop results (and it's normally possible to find an appropriate non-vanilla role if you
really
need that interaction in your setup; Miller is a common choice). Named Townie might be a commonly used role, but it really doesn't make sense in closed, unthemed setups.
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Post Post #183 (isolation #15) » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:56 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I think the "assembled from components" name there makes much more sense. With a real-life jail, you can't take the walls with you, and lock someone else in place without them.
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Post Post #198 (isolation #16) » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:30 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Just to clarify: the members of a neighbourhood are public knowledge to people
in the neighbourhood
. You can't speculatively ask the mod for a list of all neighbourhoods in the game and who's in them.
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Post Post #204 (isolation #17) » Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Masonizer is almost impossible to balance around.

I tried something similar once (balancing around Weak Neighbourizer), and it left the rest of the town power so weak that town didn't have much fun.

It might work a bit better in a Large, but it's unbalanced for the same reason that Cults are; if the recruiter doesn't die quickly, they nearly always win.
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Post Post #206 (isolation #18) » Wed May 22, 2019 4:15 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

It's still pretty difficult, but less so.

There's still an absolutely huge swing if the Masonizer dies (or is forced to claim, allowing scum to shoot them overnight) before they can use their shot.
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Post Post #212 (isolation #19) » Sat May 25, 2019 1:59 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Ah right, I missed that the control over the scum kill was particularly valuable here. (This does imply a fairly bad interaction with scum roleblockers, though, who make
both
confirmations invalid, but at least you can avoid that particular design.)

Incidentally, a one-confirmation kill isn't all that small; most swings are smaller than that (e.g. a Tracker dying D1 rather than D2 is a swing, but not a big one, and that sort of swing happens all the time in setups).
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Post Post #222 (isolation #20) » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:42 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.
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Post Post #227 (isolation #21) » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:30 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 223, Wake1 wrote:
In post 222, callforjudgement wrote:Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.
I don't understand why Vengeful is allowed then, because the Vengeful modifier is far more powerful, allowing the lynched to kill literally anyone.
When you lynch a Vengeful, it doesn't matter who hammered. So there's no point in leashing it just because the setup might have a Vengeful: the potential existence of a Vengeful doesn't completely change the way most of the setup plays out (although it does have an impact on 2:1 lylo). When Supersaints are allowed, even if they aren't in the setup, it's always correct to make sure that the second-scummiest player is the hammer for every day's lynch – there's no theoretical downside, and a very small potential upside – which affects every single Normal game from then on, because nobody can know for certain that there isn't a Supersaint.

A similar example: compare a Vigilante who can kill anyone, to a Vigilante who can kill only people who have triple-posted. The first is Normal; the second is less powerful, and abNormal, because we don't want to discourage people from tripleposting altogether in Normals just in case there happens to be a Triple-Post Vigilante lying around.
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Post Post #229 (isolation #22) » Thu Dec 05, 2019 1:00 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 228, Amrun wrote:Why isn’t vanillizer normal?
It works best in role madness, so if a game wants a vanillaiser it probably also wants to be a Theme game. In games with only a few power roles, town vanillaisers normally backfire, and scum vanillaisers are hard to balance (roleblockers are hard enough to balance in games with few power roles, and vanillaisers have a much stronger version of the same effect).

There are also two versions of the role, so you'd have to pick one to Normalise if you were going to (the version where the player knows their role has changed, and the version which leaves a permanent roleblocking effect on them).
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Post Post #247 (isolation #23) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:51 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 237, popsofctown wrote:
In post 236, Wake1 wrote:I think maybe a new Normal role should be tried.

Let's say the play could tap into a player who's part of a neighborhood, and could listen in on their discussions. Not sure if the other players being eavesdropped on would be able to tell. 'Wiretapper' would be neat, and would not be able to see Scum PTs with that ability.
I think this is literally not possible with our current forum software :(. Well, the version where the eavesdropped victims are notified works.
You can do it by giving the player in question post access to the PT but banning them from saying anything. At least one Theme did. (However, there's currently a rule in Normals that the set of players with access to a PT must be known by everyone in that PT, which bans this sort of mechanic; setups that violate that would be moving away from what I think of as a Normal, at least.)
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Post Post #248 (isolation #24) » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:53 am

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 244, Ircher wrote:
In post 240, OkaPoka wrote:i think an interesting role would be something like a town of salem jailor


or just the interrogation part and ability to execute
I think this isn't a good idea for multiple reasons: 1) it's a complex role making it harder for newer players to understand 2) it's a powerful role, which makes it difficult to balance around and 3) it's name is too similar to Jailkeeper that some confusion may arise from it. While the third problem could easily be solved by giving it a new name, the other two points still stand. Most normal roles avoid combining many actions into one role; those that fo generally have a long name (e.g.: Town Combined Friendly Neighbor Neighborizer), and this is considered importantly internally because it deters people from making setups that are "normal" by the physical rules but not "normal" in the spirit of the rules.
Also 4) timing issues. If you want it to work regardless of when people are online, you have to make selecting the target a day action, which means extra moderation complexity compared to the typical Normal.

(The other issues are real, too.)
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Post Post #396 (isolation #25) » Wed Dec 11, 2019 8:30 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Just a note that Fragile has some bizarre action resolution situations (e.g. a Fragile player being targeted by two unrelated rolestops). That said, I'm sure it would be possible to come up with some consistent ruling if the modifier were popular enough.

I prefer mastina's variant (and have seen it used before, an Activated Combined Fragile Bulletproof Townie under the name "Weremuffin"). Presumably Fragile Bulletproof protects you from direct kills but not being acted on by non-kills.
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Post Post #399 (isolation #26) » Thu Dec 12, 2019 9:11 am

Post by callforjudgement »

IMO the most sensible resolution to the double rolestop is that the rolestoppers rolestop each other and other actions go through (RAR produces this result, it's a bit less clear under NAR). In that situation, it seems strange for the rolestopped action to trigger the Fragile (unless you think that roleblocked actions would).
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Post Post #512 (isolation #27) » Sat May 23, 2020 11:22 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

Personal PT Cop is very close (the only difference is that it gets a positive on Masons too).

I'm not sure it has much design utility, though.
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Post Post #516 (isolation #28) » Mon May 25, 2020 1:53 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Who knows? If there were, they wouldn't be visible in the signup post, because then they wouldn't be unannounced.
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Post Post #529 (isolation #29) » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:02 am

Post by callforjudgement »

I like the name Checker because it works on a lot of different levels. (Here's one that hasn't been mentioned yet: in Poker, a "check" is a zero-sized bet, used to fulfil the functions that betting normally fulfils but without actually risking any poker chips. In the same way as a check in poker is the simplest possible bet, a check in Mafia is the simplest possible investigation.)
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Post Post #542 (isolation #30) » Mon Jun 22, 2020 10:42 am

Post by callforjudgement »

What's the benefit of null roles, besides modWIFOM?

We normally want Normals to be about playing versus the other players, not trying to see inside the mod's head.
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Post Post #545 (isolation #31) » Fri Jul 03, 2020 1:53 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

There are two considerations. The more minor one is that it effectively creates a role change effect (whether you use the hidden-vanillaise or Announcing variant), which is outside the space that Normals normally play in. The more major one is that if a setup actually wants a Vanillaiser, it is probably too complex to be a Normal and would work better as a Theme. (In Mafia hands, even giving them a Roleblocker tends to require a lot of town power to balance it; a Vanillaiser would require still more to balance, and at that point you're getting into role madness territory. In town hands, Vanillaiser isn't particularly broken but it's hard to see much design utility for it; if you're going around removing negative abilities then that's getting into Theme territory, if you're removing positive abilities then you have a setup where scum have powerful roles and town can somehow figure this out and yet not be able to lynch them for some reason, which is also Theme territory.)
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Post Post #595 (isolation #32) » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:30 am

Post by callforjudgement »

Town don't have factional abilities, so that would only make any sense in multiball.
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Post Post #685 (isolation #33) » Wed Jun 23, 2021 3:18 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 681, Umlaut wrote:Actually the comment about modifiers that should be roles is a good excuse for me to segue into the point that Enabler is almost certainly misclassified as a modifier rather than a modular role. In particular I think most people would agree that e.g. a Cop-Enabler should not be considered a kind of Cop, for the purpose of questions like "do they have a gun?" or "what result will they return to a Cop-Finder?" or "should a Deputy become a (disabled) Cop if they die?"
Enabler isn't a modifier, it's a derived role. (If you look at the wiki page Enabler, you'll notice that the automatic role PM generator thing describes it as a "passive ability" rather than a "modifier"; it wouldn't fit into the normal role PM syntax if you tried to use it as a modifier, because the player doesn't actually have the role being "modified".)

If you're interested in this sort of thing, you might want to look at Template:Rcl on the wiki, which handles how the various components of a role interact with each other. (The only categories which are true modifiers, in the sense of not being able to stand on their own, are "s" schedule modifiers, and "m" action modifiers; pretty much everything else either can be or has to be a role.)
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Post Post #753 (isolation #34) » Wed Jul 28, 2021 10:31 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 742, Umlaut wrote:It's interesting that these would elevate the concepts of elo/melo into actual "rules of the game" territory, rather than being derived concepts emerging from the rules as I have always considered them to be.

I'm worried that any attempt to define precisely when a game is in ELo/MeLo is likely to have annoyingly counterintuitive edge cases.
You can get outright paradoxes: some situations would be ELo if a given player is vanilla, but not ELo if they have a power role, so you can reach a situation where the players are in ELo if and only if they aren't in ELo. (A simple, if extreme, example: 2 Bulletproof Townie + ELo Bulletproof Vigilante vs. 2 Goon.)
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