Sid Meier's Civilization 5 UPick Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Ranmaru]

Red being BP would make sense, yes, but we have no way to verify that was the case.

[Ranmaru]

What do you mean by leftovers pile? Go more into that.

[Ranmaru]

So it is like a null pile for you, you mean? I would like to know why we are in that pile, as it seems it is more then POE.

[Ranmaru]

That is to Chara.

[Ranmaru]

Joey, stay in. I think we'd benefit with you staying.

[Ranmaru]

Mod: Request Vote Count

[Ranmaru]

Marshy can you talk to me about Bujaber right now? Reasons especially.

[Ranmaru]

Marshy can you talk to me about Bujaber right now? Reasons especially.

his claim looked townie but tbh ive largely given him a pass and been ignoring outside that. it was just such a weird play to make as scum ive been ignoring him

what about you?

I felt his play has also been the type to be 'this is too crazy to be scum' but lately I felt a lack of presence from him? Laser also scum read him, so I'm going to re-read him. I think we should meta him to see if this is in his scum range.

[Ranmaru]

Brass you promised me some thoughts and effort. I shouldn't be asking of this from conf town.

[Ranmaru]

That's fine. I just must stress, since you are conf town, you have the position to set the pace and trends of town. That's why I feel it's important your posts come along with a pro-town example. Did you read the link I gave you about my IC game I played? Let me know when you have a time to sit down and effort, and I'll try to be around for that.

[Ranmaru]

Welcome Thor!

[Ranmaru]

I'm down for Pidgey dying today. I'm fine with Klazam going too, expected him to try a little more, and I see nothing. I feel Chara may be the final scum in this set.

[Ranmaru]

Klazam: Red Scum.
Pidgey + Chara: Orange Scum.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Pidgey

[Ranmaru]

wait what the fuck.

Pidgey targeted me N1? link me to that. Defintely didnt get anything N1

Yeah no,

Pidgey converted brass, but was beat to it by A50

Discuss.

[Ranmaru]

N3.

Checked, and said that pidgey failed to convert nero

nvm it worked n3

[Ranmaru]

Thor and Chara, I'll respond tonight when I get home from work.

[Ranmaru]

Vote: Kiana Kaslana

2 days to deadline

Its 2 days.

If something else is viable ill join.

though i literally dont care at this point sorry lol if you wanna lynch me lets do that too

vote action dan

what's up with this, thought you were sure I was scum

Still think you are scummy

We have 2 days to deadline. Rather lynch than no lynch.

I dont give a crap anymore to be honest

.

[Ranmaru]

Consistency in Pidgey's behavior here. He is fine with whatever mislynch he can get. Note that Dan was voting my slot out of survival, at that point Pidgey had strong ammunition to vote Dan, and he did. Opportunism, and Gamma notices this. Finally, his words come off across as awkward. He also states I am focusing on him as the easy lynch, when he's at one vote, and Klazam is at three.

[Ranmaru]

why not vote Klazam here? also are you townreading Math?

I'm more confident Pidgey will flip scum over Klazam. You made good points on Math, I actually didn't know she always struggled like that and never had someone agree with her. I've also read the tiebreaker, as you and others here have, and her play is similar here to there, where she was mislynched. I have her as null for now though, and would like to see more from him.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma: Talk to me about your read on Pidgey.

[Ranmaru]

Buja

: Can you link your two most recent scum games? Can you tell me the difference between your scum and your town game?

[Ranmaru]

Alright Gamma. Tell me why you think what I say is good.

[Ranmaru]

Alright. I want you to tell me what direction you feel is better then Pidgey and why. If you can't, join me on Pidgey.

[Ranmaru]

At the top of my head, Klazam seemed to have some good content. I don't really see a case on him so I don't

see

why he's the best lynch for today, which is why I asked if you could state a better one. If I had nothing else, I would be fine with Klazam as today's lynch. Yet, as I said, I'm more confident in Pidgey flipping scum. The only thing that worries me about Klazam is he isn't really giving anything else as he has promised.

[Ranmaru]

I never thought about the games nor have I read any posts in depth about it. Quote it, and I'll try to give you my thoughts, and soon I'll go to bed.

[Ranmaru]

At a glance, I don't mind Thor having the games. I think Mark pushing SK is a bit too bold, but I'd like more to try to get a better understanding of his slot. Alright, I really need to sleep now. Buja, I'd like you to talk about Pidgey. Good night.

[Ranmaru]

I thought you just wanted me to re-state my case on Pidgey. I'll

try

to break it down for you in a way that you described. Might help to know what exactly you don't understand, though.

[Ranmaru]

Mark, what is your read on me now? Why haven't you commented on me in a while?

[Ranmaru]

Thor, I didn't have time to finish the case today. I promise I'll get to it though. Mark, I want you to tell me why you haven't interacted with me lately. What is your read on me?

Chara, tell me how your read on Mark is developing. Since you town read him, why is this town over scum, based on your experience with him. Why do you think he hasn't updated his opinions on players recently and simply focused on SK hunting?

[Ranmaru]

I want people that still have a problem with my slot, to explain fully why they have a problem with me now. Here is my defense:

People have scumread me for relations to creature and me being stressed/demotivated. That's the gist. It doesn't make sense for me to be orange scum, I wouldn't be demotivated as orange scum since only one orange scum died and we are assuming 3/3 scum. It doesn't make sense for me to be red scum since I was stressed with other games, and now that I'm free from others, I have more time to focus on this one and have been active and will continue to be. It also doesn't make sense for me to be red scum and push Creature, and then post less, which would be against the whole reason I would make a 'bus'. I would be shooting bus cred in the foot. It's not often that I play this badly as town, but usually it happens when I am over-gamed and bite more than I can chew. I was lazy in this game because I was taking Team Mafia more seriously, but now I'll be taking this seriously.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, talk to me about Mark. What do you think of Mark not updating his thoughts on other players besides Shaziro? What is your read on him, and his recent push?

[Ranmaru]

I'm actually not convinced in my case on Pidgey now, and don't want to go any deeper with my case at all. I generally don't care about you being low hanging fruit, and I think we'll be able to solve this pretty soon. Pidgey, I think you are thinking too small picture and need to think 'big picture' with my slot. I've been over thinking it, and realize that Klazam is the final red scum. I've been doing some re-reading, and looking at Creature's wagon and off his wagon. I've also looked at the night kills, to see which of Pidgey / Klazam would want to make those kills. The kills all point to Klazam. Klazam was off the wagon. #1742 looks like a buddy interaction with Dunk. His #1090 states Creature is a problem but he never interacts with Creature, nor votes him to deal with the problem. Finally, Klazam isn't doing anything to progress the game now, which really feels like scum that has given up. I don't think Pidgey is orange, and I think it's possible Klazam shot in the religion pool to shade the other religion spreaders, in hopes it'd take off pressure from him.

Unvote Vote: Klazam

[Ranmaru]

I'm straight up that lost.

I think you'll do fine. Obviously, I suggest you read Day 1, at least. I think you'll get what you need from that Day alone at least. A few scum have already flipped, so we are having trouble pinning down the final scum, and it's multiball. I'm not focusing that hard on the mechanics, I'm just focusing on dayplay really.

[Ranmaru]

I think I've been pretty open about this. I've felt like his incessant pushing is pretty bad. Why do you feel like prodding me about it now and why don't you recall any of my previous statements about Mark?

I see that recent progression, that's why I asked for your read on him and how it's developing. When I say read, I'm looking for 'town' 'null' 'scum', which is why I asked. If you did specify an alignment, please link me to your post where you say that.

[Ranmaru]

I don't see how red shooting in the religion spreaders is silly. Note that A50 stated in his #4558 that Mark + Pidgey were Orange, with Klazam being his red read. Next post he votes Klazam, here. It's consistent with the previous night kills, Varsoon, Nero Cain, and A50 were red kills which have pushed for Klazam (some have voted Klazam). It would make sense to kill A50 if he's correct on the red scum, so killing there would seem like optimal red scum play. I don't think red cares about orange as Varsoon basically outed himself as a scumteam to the opposing team Day 1, so red didn't care to keep him alive.

[Ranmaru]

Exactly, it's a kill based on red's survival. It ignores the big picture of letting their be shade on all the religion spreaders, and prioritizes the player's

read

. That's my take on it. Klazam killed him, as if he was OMGUSING each player that has pushed him. Red didn't care to keep the mystery up, they cared to dispose of the guy mentioning him as scum and voting him.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you Gamma. Chara, answer me if you please.

[Ranmaru]

Mark: It is indeed a silly kill. Yet, if you believe that is the case, why do you believe an SK would kill in a silly way, after claiming not to have any more shots, as a pro-claimed town vig? If Klazam showed the ability and desire to talk himself out of his situation, I'd consider what you are saying, but his lack of posting doesn't seem to lean towards that deduction. Also keep in mind that most of the kills have been players on the Creature wagon on Day 1.

[Ranmaru]

Joda, where is your head at in terms of scumreads right now?

[Ranmaru]

Simple, Orange scum never had kills in the first place.

[Ranmaru]

Weren't we in the agreement that Elbirn died due to his role, and not being shot?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma: I thought it was more likely that he died due to his role, but I never said I was sure on who he targeted. I don't see how it has to be that he targeted you and you only if he died by using his role.

[Ranmaru]

I say that only because I played in a large with two scum teams, one had a kill, the other team had a delayed poison kill. So I came to the conclusion orange scum may not have a kill, either to balance the setup or they get kills if red scum die before them. Otherwise, we have to keep guessing that all their shots were protected.

[Ranmaru]

No I am not.

[Ranmaru]

It all makes sense for Klazam to be the final red scum. It doesn't make sense for Shaziro to claim town vig, and then shoot himself in the foot. Klazam's play is red scum play (isn't here posting), Klazam's night kills point towards him (All were pushing him), His lack of interaction with Creature and vote, points him as final red scum. His interaction with Dunk, signifies as partners. Klazam killing in that way from the beginning, isn't shooting himself in the foot. Finally, you have stated Klazam as your top suspect for final red scum, so you should be able to see what I see.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma, what's your read on Klazam right now? Would you care to vote him with me?

[Ranmaru]

Why Titus & Mark are Orange Scum

:

Titus's vote on Gamma is weird, here: #49. I ask her why she voted Gamma, and this is her response: #251. She doesn't give a convincing reason to be on Gamma, which reads as fake. In her #299, she responds to me but not to my entire substance. I feel like she couldn't actually respond, so that was part of why she was posting less during mid game of D1. Her #460 didn't have a solid conclusion for leaving Gamma. In her #521, she responds to Pidgey's town read of me, which stinks of scum trying to shoot down correct town reads by giving a counter point. Titus follows Varsoon in her #619, which is her orange mate. In her #1000 she states she was busy, but I think it's more her motivation. She started early and seemed to be steering things and then didn't do much afterwards, which shows she was only doing it for show. Her #3399 isn't believable, she hasn't really had much progression there, she voted Gamma after Chara did, but never really stated why nor has she stated a confident read. Again, it seemed like it was for show.

Mark's #4340 is weird. To me it seems like he was aware of the thread and when he sees myself start catching up. His #4345 feels disingenuous to me. He asks me for my current thoughts, and I give them and that just seems like such a calculated response. After I have interacted with him about it, he's never gave a conclusion on me, and gave this response to why: #5131. He states I would sort myself out later, clearly leaves out a read so that he can come back to that later. #5176 #5177 Here, after being proved wrong that Shaziro cannot be SK, Mark finally moves to me without any solid reasoning or backing whatsoever. This is the definition of backing down, but at an opportunistic time. Let's rewind, he's had me as 'you'll be sorted later' for this very opportunity that he might be proved wrong. Now, this all reads as him not caring to actually determine alignment, but rather pick and choose a target, and tunnel, until it's not feasible to push anymore and switch when it's time. It doesn't seem organic to me. It would be in Orange's best interest to avoid a red scum lynch, and this is what it seems like Mark is doing. Either push Shaziro or anyone not Klazam.

FOS: MARK

[Ranmaru]

Today, we'll lynch Klazam, the final red scum. Next we'll focus on Orange scum, and we'll begin with Mark. Gamma and Marshy, talk to me about this.

[Ranmaru]

My reason for wanting red scum first is so we can decrease night kills. I'd like to know why people want Mark over Klazam if we agree that both are scum. I also want to see others post, it's been a little slow. Gamma, Chara, Marshy, etc. Thor will be catching up this weekend so I'll expect to see his thoughts sometime soon as well.

[Ranmaru]

Pidgey, I did say I was not convinced in my own case anymore, as I re-read more I realized I was wrong. I also remembered you voted Klazam early in Day 1, and started thinking you might have been right. Can you tell me why you voted him at that time? I also don't think you are orange scum, as I said before. Mark is orange scum.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Mark

L-2.

[5] Klazam: marshy, Chara, Gamma, brassherald, Pidgey
[3] OnTheMark: Shaziro, Buja, Ranmaru
[1] Ranmaru: OnTheMark

[Ranmaru]

Buja

: I was too focused on Pidgey's actions near deadline for two days. Yet I re-read and realized he felt slightly town, due to his pushes of gut and feeling. I can't deny that he may be partnered with Mark, as I see no connection that shows he is definitely

not

orange scum with Mark, yet I find no evidence linking him to Mark

either

. Individually though, as a whole, I don't get the feeling he is Orange Scum. By giving the two conditionals, do you mean to say you are fine with Mark or Klazam going either way? If not, can you explain why you prefer Mark first. I just want to take the most optimal path for town.

[Ranmaru]

Klazam

: Give your full reads list, and put your vote on Mark.

[Ranmaru]

Klazam, it's near deadline, so I want to make sure there is enough votes on both yourself and Mark. I also want more pressure on Mark.

[Ranmaru]

[5] Klazam: marshy, Chara, Gamma, brassherald, Pidgey
[4] OnTheMark: Shaziro, Buja, Ranmaru, Klazam
[1] Ranmaru: OnTheMark

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch
Deadline in 2 days, 12 hours, 36 minutes (at the time of this post)
Deadline on Tuesday, 1 May @ 12:00 MIDNIGHT EDT

[Ranmaru]

I say wait for Thor to catch up, and give his thoughts on the wagons. I also want to see Gamma and Marshy give opinions on the wagons. Then I'd be ready to end the day after that.

[Ranmaru]

Lol Marshy.

[Ranmaru]

Paging Gamma and Thor.

[Ranmaru]

Can you explain why you think it's an unnecessary risk?

[Ranmaru]

Fair enough. Thor did mention being lost, and it seems he seems to be close to being replaced sadly.

[Ranmaru]

Brass and Pidgey, if Gamma and Thor don't post tonight, feel free to join the Mark wagon.

[Ranmaru]

HURT: nay for international games x 3

[Ranmaru]

I need more votes on Mark.

[Ranmaru]

You sadden me Thor. The Mark wagon has cookies. Come join.

[Ranmaru]

Why Titus & Mark are Orange Scum

:

Titus's vote on Gamma is weird, here: #49. I ask her why she voted Gamma, and this is her response: #251. She doesn't give a convincing reason to be on Gamma, which reads as fake. In her #299, she responds to me but not to my entire substance. I feel like she couldn't actually respond, so that was part of why she was posting less during mid game of D1. Her #460 didn't have a solid conclusion for leaving Gamma. In her #521, she responds to Pidgey's town read of me, which stinks of scum trying to shoot down correct town reads by giving a counter point. Titus follows Varsoon in her #619, which is her orange mate. In her #1000 she states she was busy, but I think it's more her motivation. She started early and seemed to be steering things and then didn't do much afterwards, which shows she was only doing it for show. Her #3399 isn't believable, she hasn't really had much progression there, she voted Gamma after Chara did, but never really stated why nor has she stated a confident read. Again, it seemed like it was for show.

Mark's #4340 is weird. To me it seems like he was aware of the thread and when he sees myself start catching up. His #4345 feels disingenuous to me. He asks me for my current thoughts, and I give them and that just seems like such a calculated response. After I have interacted with him about it, he's never gave a conclusion on me, and gave this response to why: #5131. He states I would sort myself out later, clearly leaves out a read so that he can come back to that later. #5176 #5177 Here, after being proved wrong that Shaziro cannot be SK, Mark finally moves to me without any solid reasoning or backing whatsoever. This is the definition of backing down, but at an opportunistic time. Let's rewind, he's had me as 'you'll be sorted later' for this very opportunity that he might be proved wrong. Now, this all reads as him not caring to actually determine alignment, but rather pick and choose a target, and tunnel, until it's not feasible to push anymore and switch when it's time. It doesn't seem organic to me. It would be in Orange's best interest to avoid a red scum lynch, and this is what it seems like Mark is doing. Either push Shaziro or anyone not Klazam.

FOS: MARK

[Ranmaru]

Brass, I see you posting around. Talk to me. I want you on the Mark wagon with me.

[Ranmaru]

Thor: You would have a point if I didn't have any progression on Titus or Mark. He was already sorting me before, when he was 'catching' up. He never followed up with me, and hasn't tried to interact with me until I forced him to. He says it was due to crunch time, that he didn't interact with me, and I don't buy that response. Now, what is your read on Mark, with reasoning.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you Brass.

[Ranmaru]

Best guess is three teams as three kills. One SK two mafia teams of three?

Mark you should know shaz claimed vig (the 3rd kill).

Lolz okay So Shaz is SK or a vig.

That makes life easy. Destroy mafia until three dead for each known color and if game continues lynch Shaz for being SK. If game continues after that then each mafia probably had four members. I would find that odd and tilting to say the least given a d1 lynch on scum. Or we just lynch Shaz now since 21/3 = 7 meaning Shaz likely SK but I wanna read Shaz ISO to see if there is any merit to the vig claim. I don’t see how it would make sense numerically to be a vig.

[Ranmaru]

Scum Mark is pushing Town Vig because it helps him keep his mislynch options open wide. Also, his 4074 is not convincing. It shows he already had the vig as a pre-determined target and is painting Shaziro as a SK instead of determining his alignment

first

.

[Ranmaru]

Interesting so my theory was correct. [That Shaziro is SK]

[Ranmaru]

Marshy, I actually want you to sheep me on Mark.

[Ranmaru]

I think I have it figured out more then you right now.

[Ranmaru]

You come to Mark first. Then if you want Klazam tomorrow, you can have him if I'm not alive. Just trust me on this. I helped you with the avatars. Now help me with this.

[Ranmaru]

Don't leave me hanging Marshy. I believe if we don't lynch Mark today, town will lose.

[Ranmaru]

That's exactly what I mean. That's part of why we are going to lose, if we don't lynch Mark

first

. I was hoping to keep some things under the lid, but you leave me no choice. I don't think there are any red scum remaining. Think about that for a second.

[Ranmaru]

Yes, I know it sounds crazy.

I didn't either

. That's the best part.

[Ranmaru]

I know. I have been too, only until recently. Yet, it makes more sense for orange scum that can KILL, shooting in a way to frame Klazam and you/pidgey. We also have a deep wolf in the game. Can you guess who?

[Ranmaru]

I'm not saying that, we ran out of scum, no. I'm still saying there are 6 total scum. Two teams. One team already died though. Get it?

[Ranmaru]

Yes, I'm saying 2 man red team and 4 man orange team. Alright, I'll out it. The team would be [Varsoon, Mark, Gamma, Thor].

[Ranmaru]

Joey had resistance to giving a solid Titus read when he was interacting with me. Thor, had lurked to the point of actually being replaced. Gamma, has reacted badly to me saying Orange Scum had no kills and that I thought Elbirn died via his role. Scum have resistance to the Mark lynch. This is a scum stall, which funnily, I would hear from Gamma, but he's not here to say that.

[Ranmaru]

What's the logic that Mark is scum considering you all seem to think he's pushing to get a town Vig lynched?

Whats's the Klazam case?

I'd tend to support that just on a lark

.

[Ranmaru]

The reason why Joey has been so forceful with early massclaim was because Varsoon, the rolecop, died early. The reason why they aren't killing Brass, is because they have scum with him in a neighborhood, whispering sweet lies in his ears. The reason why they killed A50, was to implicate Klazam, and to implicate both religion spreaders, who are both town. Joey claimed commuter to hide the fact he won't ever die, as scum.

[Ranmaru]

I feel like I'm starting to trust you abit more here Mark

. However I still don't believe Shaz is the best lynch. Even if he is SK I think as stated by others he's backed himself into a corner here. Either he tries to play the long con or hopes the kills don't line up in a way to incriminate him.

[Ranmaru]

Pidgey, I want to talk to you when you have a chance.

[Ranmaru]

TOWN [Ranmaru > Brass > Marshy > Buja > Joda > Shaziro > Pidgey > Chara > Klazam | Joey > Gamma > Mark] SCUM

[Ranmaru]

I'll be out too. Later.

[Ranmaru]

You should stay in. Pidgey, get at me please.

[Ranmaru]

I am more confident in Mark being scum right now. I was saying take care of Mark first in case I'm wrong. If anything, at least note that there was a stall most recently from Thor and Gamma. Keep that in mind at least.

[Ranmaru]

Mark, give me a full reads list with reasoning.

[Ranmaru]

I shall think about it, Buja. All I know is that Mark is scum. Thor, I will admit I have some paranoia about you, since you were actually close to being replaced. Also it is due to interactions with your slot before you replaced. So, I answered your question.

[Ranmaru]

It read like you were stalling. If you note Gamma was also not posting, and has not reacted to my case on Mark. So I connected the dots there. Also, I did not mean that your interaction with me makes Mark scum. I meant I answered your question much earlier.

[Ranmaru]

You were gone for a little over 72 hours. The last time I have seen you as scum, I think you avoided scum Oomba. Thor, I assume you have caught up. What are your reads right now? Read on me? Why does my answer not satisfy you?

[Ranmaru]

What made me re-think everything was how weird the A50 kill was. I then thought, what if Orange made a kill on him instead (to implicate klazam marshy and pidgey) which lead me to think: Orange scum may have been killing since Night 2. Which would answer why the kills pointed to Klazam so hard. I knew it sounded crazy but I felt I should have outed that at this phase in the game. I will get to the rest in a bit.

[Ranmaru]

Brass, wish you would have waited.

[Ranmaru]

Actually, you can still come back. I think Mark is still scum. I implore you to come back to Mark. I am shopping right now.

[Ranmaru]

Brass, I need you to talk to me. I also want you to effort a little more.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

Hey Pidgey. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on it.

[Ranmaru]

If I had to choose two scum from [Thor, Gamma, Mark], then it would be Thor and Gamma. Titus pushed Gamma early and continued to do so. I thought it was just [Titus, Gamma] but Joey's interactions with me on the Titus read, him being so stubborn with his scumread on me even though I explained it, and Thor syncing up with Gamma on almost being replaced. I can see Mark being just bad town in that situation, it's just that Titus also seemed awkward in the beginning, and it seemed more like distancing.

[Ranmaru]

You are implying the supposed 2man group was balanced? I love the theory behind your thoughts but it kinda falls flat man. A 2 man group with such weak roles seems too limmited.

And thor as scum would be wild.

Like Joda said, I wouldn't consider lynching Thor today. I would agree that we should talk about it in future days. Yet, I also agree that Klazam does feel like he's lost and also like mislynch bait, especially with my theory that Orange Scum may have been killing to set him up. It's possible that there may be three teams of 2, looking at Varsoon's multiball post. If there is no red scum remaining, then I have to out this theory now so that people don't actually give up. Even I was fine earlier with giving up because I thought town was going to win this EZ PZ but now, I'm not so sure.

[Ranmaru]

So, the fact that you were scum read, and the engagement on a scum read of yours which was not Gamma means that Gamma and Thor are partners?

That makes no sense to me. Your entire read relies upon Mark being scum, but I guess Orange scum?

Why is Gamma scum?

Orange Scum. Gamma is scum due to meta. He's been tip-toeing around Mark. His reaction to me saying Orange Scum had no kills was bad. He was content with leaving his vote on Klazam, when as town he'd be more reluctant to vote with me. In Team Mafia White Flag he was obvious town, and he wasn't as willing to vote with me, and he was saying obv townie things. Early game he was playing carefully, because he was scum. Simple as that.

[Ranmaru]

Its kinda true that there have been 2 night kills missing if we consider the vig and 2 scum groups though... night 2 should have had 3 and night 3 should have had 2.

Obviously they could have targetted the same guy or someone could have saved a kill, but 2 nights in a row seems too coincidential.

Ok lets say ill give you the reason. I could see a scum group gone. But how is it balanced and why would the other team have 4 members?

The bad thing is that you are putting too much into the theory but none of ir is confirmed. And we have like a day for deadline and only mark or klazam are viable a this point

I think there is too much protective roles claimed right now. I think some of the protectives are scum. You're right, I am putting too much into it. Yet I felt I needed to state it or otherwise town might tunnelvision without re-considering at all. I think Mark is our best bet.

[Ranmaru]

No Buja, your reads are crazy and have always been crazy from the start. I still don't know why you think Gamma is town.

[Ranmaru]

No, Gamma distances with his partners just as he did in Penguin Mafia Redux. Then he purposely had himself bussed to fool me and mislead me into town reading transcend.

[Ranmaru]

Ran - gamma CANNOT be scum unless either 1) shaziro lied. 2) jodax lied. 3) both of them lied.

Go more into this.

[Ranmaru]

If that is true I am literally not your best bet and are blatantly admitting you’re mislynching me.

I still think you are scum. I was saying if I had to choose from the three, I'd most likely choose those two. I wouldn't be pushing you if you hadn't been opportunistic with your read on me. Now, question: Why did you consider the SK option instead of the Deep wolf option?

[Ranmaru]

It makes sense from Orange, since neither Marshy nor Pidgey would be scum, they'd be both town. It makes more sense for orange scum who can kill to kill A50 and frame Klazam when we are still looking for red scum. I'm not ripping off anything and it's annoying that you keep trying to say that I'm ripping you off when you have never stated that Orange has been killing since N2.

[Ranmaru]

You also modded the White Flag game. Tell me what you know of me as a player so far, and compare that to here. Then, compare what you know of Gamma from that game, and tell me how his game here is different.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma's meta is

not

exactly like White Flag. I will go on the record here.

[Ranmaru]

Unvote; Vote: Gamma

[Ranmaru]

I'm saying, Orange scum did not kill N1.

[Ranmaru]

Creature

Elbirn Died via role
Dunk SHAZIRO KILL
Varsoon RED KILL

Action Dan

Kokichi SHAZIRO KILL
Nero Cain Orange KILL

LaserGuy

Almost50 Orange KILL

[Ranmaru]

Why did Orange not kill N1, then?

Most likely because they weren't able to

yet

.

[Ranmaru]

Otherwise, how else does the mod balance a Vig, and two scum teams?

[Ranmaru]

What

exactly

is your argument? Or are you just spouting shit to keep your scumread?

I'm saying you might be town here, so I'm just going for Gamma. I've read the tie breaker game, and I know that you have problems with town cohesion. Titus acted weird with Gamma, but maybe I'm wrong and she was just that convinced. So, if you are town, consider Titus's read of Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

I think the setup is either: 14-3-3-1 (bulletproof SK, lots of town power, protectives in scum/town), 15-3-3, or 15-2-2-2 or something similar to that.

[Ranmaru]

Mark, talk to me on Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

You two don't have any issue with mark pushing for an SK lynch (who is likely town) instead of scum lynch?

I kinda let that slip from my mind, that is pretty ech but I don't really know if math is so blind to his play that he'd make that sort of blunder

That's not a crumb at all? It's just turn of phrase.

Is a bad argument necessarily scummy though?

It's this incessant desire you have to push Mark at every turn that makes you suspicious currently for me
Try to see things from other angles. It could just be that Mark is tinfoiling extremely hard.

Gamma, talk to me about Mark. What do you think of Mark not updating his thoughts on other players besides Shaziro? What is your read on him, and his recent push?

I think I've been pretty open about this. I've felt like his incessant pushing is pretty bad. Why do you feel like prodding me about it now and why don't you recall any of my previous statements about Mark?

Screw it, I'm not waiting. Joey told me in the Neighborhood last night that he had commuted Night 2. Therefore, he had not commute on Night 3.

OTM's theory is full of shit.

Say what?! So Joey is nonconsecutive commuter? What does this mean for OTM's role's viability? I feel like it lend's credibility to OTM's claim.

I was the only person he left a clear crumb on, and I don't see him going off the rails.

I keep letting that bit about my watch confirming Elbirn not visiting brass slip my mind for some reason. How could I forget something so important? I am such a fool!

I feel like I'm starting to trust you abit more here Mark. However I still don't believe Shaz is the best lynch. Even if he is SK I think as stated by others he's backed himself into a corner here. Either he tries to play the long con or hopes the kills don't line up in a way to incriminate him.

[Ranmaru]

The German tanks are not subtle in their implications. The scholars wish to remind them that subtlety is the better form of valor at times. The rashness and impulsivity are not favored traits. If I picked up the implications then I doubt I am the only one that asks why you change your mind so erratically. I will see if I can work with you further without making the implications obvious.

VOTE: Gamma Emerald
Can we please avoid using words spuriously? Reading walls with no reads or point is very annoying.

I'm trying not to artificially inflate the thread when it's early-game.

There is no town motivation for a quote wall on page 2.

Pedit. Same reasoning as titus.

nope. I believe the start of a game is critically important to the rest of it so I'm trying to start it with less posts rather than more

.

Chara why do you seem so interested in defending Gamma?

I seek to place an embassy in Action Dan's country.

True, why are you defending me so soon Chara? I haven't really posted anything that game-relevant yet.

Titus: i don't care about Gamma. i think Dan's reasoning was bad and brass following him on it worse.
i have noted your spin on the situation.

Okay so I'm essentially the background for this argument, nice, I always wanted to be a background

Titus: i don't care about Gamma. i think Dan's reasoning was bad and brass following him on it worse.
i have noted your spin on the situation.

Dan's vote ninjaed my post for the same reason. All Gamma did was a filler wall. Does that make him lock scum 4ever? No. But I agree with Dan's approach and you seem paricularly close to Gamma by chainsawing all who don't like gamma. Don't know if it's AI but... :/

I don't think they're chainsawing they seem to just think the idea is bad. If it was someone else they'd very likely take the same stance.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma's been hard defending you at every turn, and also his actions had slipped his mind, which might be him just defending you on a town flip, making it seem like you two are buddies. His scumplay has improved, and I was the one that helped him improve it. This is why his play has read as cautious to me. In White Flag, he was obvious town, and he dropped very good logic, and also voted with ISO's. He hasn't done that here. He wasn't able to comment on my case on you, Mark. I do believe Gamma has visited Brass, as Pidgey has explained. He would need to have an alibi for what he is doing. Yet remember, we asked: Why would he visit Brass when we knew Brass would be protected? If there was no town benefit, then there is only scum benefit.

[Ranmaru]

Unless I guess gamma is scum but told the truth about visiting brass? But what scum role would that be? That makes even less sense

There is only one thing confirmed: That he visited Brass, nothing else. Doesn't JOAT seem to conflict with Joda's role?

[Ranmaru]

Pidgey, I think Varsoon may have confirmed the setup to be 15-2-2-2. I'm going to take a break. Marshy, would love your thoughts on this.

[Ranmaru]

Welcome back Gamma. I want you to catch up from your latest post, and then give a full reads list.

[Ranmaru]

Why Shaz?

[Ranmaru]

Also, that's not where you left off from. There's still something I want you to react to.

[Ranmaru]

My old case on Mark, which I have been asking your response to.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma and Marshy, talk to me about this.

[Ranmaru]

I think Gamma is in limbo and just responding to things about himself before someone else comes in.

[Ranmaru]

Do you really think Joey had that planned out since he was neighborized?

No because Varsoon the Rolecop, died without warning.

[Ranmaru]

I like to bounce reads and at the time, I was fine with your slot. Your absence actually made me want Mark more, actually. Gamma, why did you not post for 72 hours? Are you usually V/LA weekends? Why are you replacing?

[Ranmaru]

I'm talking about the commuter claim.

Most likely pre-planned, yes.

[Ranmaru]

While I will state this is true, keep in mind my play for WF was doctored somewhat to be less abrasive with older players.
Anyway my overall take on Ran's turn on me is that it is completely non-sensical, though maybe it comes from town because she hasn't taken the time to give an explanation for what shaz's part in all this is.

Why do you think Mark is saying your play is exactly the same though if you agree with me?

[Ranmaru]

Gamma: Can you answer my #5416 though?

[Ranmaru]

Because they object and think that's the best way to object

Mark, can you explain what Gamma means here?

[Ranmaru]

Because they object and think that's the best way to object

Mark, can you explain what Gamma means here?

woul;d you like me to?

No, I want Mark to answer.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma is talking about OnTheMark, regarding reading Gamma exactly the same as White Flag and why OnTheMark would read him [Gamma] that way when Gamma disagrees.

[Ranmaru]

Gamma's meta is

not

exactly like White Flag. I will go on the record here.

While I will state this is true,

keep in mind my play for WF was doctored somewhat to be less abrasive with older players

.

[Ranmaru]

You also modded the White Flag game. Tell me what you know of me as a player so far, and compare that to here. Then, compare what you know of Gamma from that game, and tell me how his game here is different.

For starters in white flag you were a scum agent in town colors a majority of the game and

Gamma’s meta seems exactly like white flag

. Here you are actively trying to mislynch me before I can save a townie tonight. So either A) You’re scum (more likely) or scum in town colors.

[Ranmaru]

White Flag Meta Case on Gamma

[Ranmaru]

Would we even have enough people on board gor gamma anyway? Im not sure man. Definitely not super feeling klazam right now.

Your theory is still super crazy man! What would the other third scum team be doing? Do religions impact the scum teams in some way or not?

Between Klazam and Mark, I'd go towards Mark. They

might

, but I'm thinking probably not. Reason is, that would mean there are extra religions people have yet to claim. I would say team 2 has investigative and protective, and team 3 would have another protective and investigative. Yet, all weak.

[Ranmaru]

I know, it's super crazy. Yet I think "Why did we ever think 3 v 3 scum was confirmed?" Your point about there being less kills is also a good one.

[Ranmaru]

I mean, people have not claimed they are a different religion then catholic or protestant. I feel the priority would be to balance around the vig.

[Ranmaru]

No, Joey, you don't understand
If there ARE multiple teams and more than one of them tries to kill Brass, then we end up with less dead town than we would have otherwise.
Alternatively, scum avoid Brass, which makes it more likely that they cross-kill and easier for us to win.
Making Brass world leader is pretty much a win/win. Only way it doesn't work out is if
1. The setup isn't multiball, but I've already outlined why it's got to be unless we're screwed when it comes to world congress anyway
2. The different teams/SK manage to all co-ordinate such that only one kill ends up on Brass.

[Ranmaru]

Did Joda and Gamma claim their night actions for N3?

[Ranmaru]

You are implying the supposed 2man group was balanced? I love the theory behind your thoughts but it kinda falls flat man.

A 2 man group with such weak roles seems too limmited

.

I'm starting to think 3 2 mans are supposed to be weak. You feel me.

[Ranmaru]

I've thought about it, and I think Mark, Gamma, and Thor must all be scum. My reads on Mark and Gamma are more solid then my Thor read. Mostly, I think Gamma and Thor are scum together, while Mark is a lone wolf. Note that Gamma and Joey both conversed with Varsoon about the 'setup', but Titus did not. I think 3 teams of two, should explain to Joda why Gamma is indeed scum. Mark and Gamma are more transparent, and already seem pretty suspicious to me. Thor, is usually easy for me to read so as the game grows I'll be able to strengthen my read. As it's mostly gut, Joey's harshness with my slot and not giving me a chance, and the commuter claim which is one of the many factors which makes us think 'but the suggestions you gave are too weak'. My idea is that religion spreaders are essentially, Mafia Goons. Guess which roles are the religion spreaders? Commuter, and non-consecutive doc. Mark is suspicious by play, Titus is suspicious by play, and by night play. Titus using it on Brass N2 is convenient, and also implies knowledge of who can kill. (Since, if she uses it on Brass and claims doc, she must have control of a night kill) Joey has played a good game, but what will out him in the end is his role and reads. I genuinely thought Thor was town until the absence, and the choice to lynch Klazam over Mark. If we lynch Klazam today and he flips town, I want everyone to sheep me. If Mark is lynched and flips Orange scum, I want everyone to sheep me. Either way, I think I am 3/3 right now. In the case that there were only two scum left, I would choose Gamma and Thor. Yet, I believe there are 3 remaining.

Unvote; Vote: Mark

[Ranmaru]

Reads

Brassherald	Thor	Chara
Innocent Child	Religion Spreader	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Bujaber	Gamma Emerald	Klazam
VT	JOAT	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Shaziro	Pidgey	Marshy
Vig x2	Catholic Spreader	Protestant Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Jodaxq	Ranmaru	Mark
Self Random Inventor	VT	Religion Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓

[Ranmaru]

Setup

Brassherald	Thor	Chara
Innocent Child	Religion Spreader	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Bujaber	Gamma Emerald	Klazam
VT	JOAT	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Shaziro	Pidgey	Marshy
Vig x2	Catholic Spreader	Protestant Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Jodaxq	Ranmaru	Mark
Self Random Inventor	VT	Religion Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Creature	Elbirn	Dunk
Roleblocker	Private Security Guard	Pagan Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Varsoon	Action Dan	Kokichi
Rolecop	VT	Neighbouriser
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Nero Cain	LaserGuy	Almost50
JailKeeper	VT	Taoism Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓

[Ranmaru]

I've solved the game.

[Ranmaru]

• With
  12
  alive, it takes
  7
  votes to lynch
  
• Deadline in (expired on 2018-05-01 00:00:00)
  
• Deadline on Tuesday, 1 May @ 12:00
  MIDNIGHT
  EDT

[Ranmaru]

GDI lol I was making one

[Ranmaru]

Vamonos muchacho

[Ranmaru]

Brass, vote Mark with me. You town read me earlier game, and you should have no reason to scum read me now. So let's go. Otherwise, if you stay on Klazam, I want you to take responsibility if he flips town. How can you fix this? You promise to look into my scumreads, that is how. Ask yourself why I would try to save Klazam if he's town. You are conf town and people will follow where you go. You only seem to have one correct read, so I want you to work harder. It's funny, I'm in Titus's position as she was in the IC game I linked you to. Earlier on you asked for tips on how to play IC. Do you think you are playing it well? At least, please don't be lazy about it. Use that role to your advantage. (I was 2/3 that game)

Looking through, I think Klazam, OtM, Shaziro, ranmaru and Marshy contains all the remaining scum. I could be wrong though.

Joey was talking about the commute since night 1 in the Neighborhood we have, so I don't believe he is lying about that.

Don't rely on that to read Joey. I've had the role 'informed mafia goon' which knows the setup in a game before, funnily enough, when I last played with Thor. Also, when you have weak powers, you can assume the setup also has weak powers, which would lend to fake claims. That's why I say it is pre-planned. You said you'd only look into him on a prospective partner, and that is Gamma. Once you have Gamma's flip, what I say will finally be realized.

[Ranmaru]

There is one scum on the Klazam wagon, and two scum are off the major wagons.

[Ranmaru]

Mark, do you town read Klazam? Can you go into the reasoning on your read.

[Ranmaru]

I say if Klazam flips town, follow my reads. I already predicted you'd go towards Klazam.

[Ranmaru]

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch
Deadline in 0 days, 5 hours, 16 minutes
Deadline on Tuesday, 1 May @ 12:00 MIDNIGHT EDT

[Ranmaru]

Best guess is three teams as three kills. One SK two mafia teams of three?

Mark you should know shaz claimed vig (the 3rd kill).

Lolz okay So Shaz is SK or a vig.

That makes life easy. Destroy mafia until three dead for each known color and if game continues lynch Shaz for being SK. If game continues after that then each mafia probably had four members. I would find that odd and tilting to say the least given a d1 lynch on scum. Or we just lynch Shaz now since 21/3 = 7 meaning Shaz likely SK but I wanna read Shaz ISO to see if there is any merit to the vig claim. I don’t see how it would make sense numerically to be a vig.

Scum Mark is pushing Town Vig because it helps him keep his mislynch options open wide. Also, his 4074 is not convincing. It shows he already had the vig as a pre-determined target and is painting Shaziro as a SK instead of determining his alignment

first

.

Interesting so my theory was correct. [That Shaziro is SK]

Let me explain again. Mark is a lone Orange scum. Mark's claim is fake. He didn't claim immediately. I have dayplay reasons for why he is scum. He knows there are 2-2-2 scum since he was scum with Varsoon. Titus voted along with Varsoon which implies they share an alignment. Mark is pushing for Vig because he isn't focusing on pushing a lynch, he was hoping town would push Klazam after the kills pointed toward him, while he 're-evaluated' Pidgey. He's pinning the weird kill on the SK when it was himself.

[Ranmaru]

Lol I mean on the vig, not SK.

[Ranmaru]

If you were Varsoon wouldn't need to 'communicate' across the scum teams. It seems more like cross scum are working together.

[Ranmaru]

Marshy, vote with me.

[Ranmaru]

titus is scummy in the first 100 posts of this game in conjunction with her later play. if she flips orange shaz isnt her partner due to post 100 + post 125 tho im pretty sure hes clear anyway

Broski, remember this? Titus = Mark = Scum. Join this wagon. We have cookies. Conftown is on it, and so is the Vig. AND ME. AND PIDGEY. What more can you ask for?

[Ranmaru]

Hey Chara.

[Ranmaru]

I think so. I can bring up some quotes.

[Ranmaru]

Spoiler: Varsoon Comm

Aaaaah, I'm just gonna post this and hope I'm right. I've been debating it because I think that if I am wrong and we make these setup assumptions, it could really kick us in the ass.

I was thinking a lot about what's keeping scum from just completely gaming the delegates, especially considering the snowballing that happens if scum manage to get multiple delegates.
As an earlier post of mine implies, I figured it was initially just a balance point of either scum knowing resolutions already (no info to be gained from being a world leader) or that a lot of scum voting a world leader in would be very obvious.
I then realized that it's much more likely the setup is multiball and that scum teams are only two or three players. Why's that?

1. What really tipped me off was the non-specificity of my role PM and the opening posts in regards to a 'scum team'. There's mention of eliminating 'all threats to town', but that's it.
2. I thought for sure the 'all threats to town' was an absolute nod to the game being multiball because of the wording, but after digging Venmar's mod-meta, I've discovered:
--a) Venmar uses the same wording even in his singleball setups with exclusion of an open setup he ran way back in 2012.
--b) Out of over 5 different setups of Venmar's design, only one of them was singleball entirely.
3. Given the flavor of the theme (multiple civilizations forming alliances, the fact people often play multiple 'teams', the multiple wincons in the game that different civs shoot for, etc.), there are several avenues to make this a multiball game
4. Singleball would actually make the World Congress mechanic unbalanced in favor of scum.
5. If anti-town factions have daychat, then there's NO WAY that the game is singleball, because the amount of co-ordination a full-size singular scumteam could do in this kind of setup with daychat would make the world leader mechanic almost pointless for town. However, if there are multiple smaller teams, daychat makes a lot more sense. I did not check Venmar's previous games to see if daychat was normal in his setups, but I do recall there being encryptors in the setup.

I had this revelation awhile back, between posts 100 and 200, because I had a pretty dynamic shift in how I was viewing the game/mechanics by 226 and forward.
Assuming multiball, we should be a lot more critical of the people who are laying low and self-voting, like Klazaam, because in multiball:
1. Scum players are likelier to self-vote and get a partner to boost them.
2. Scum players are likelier to avoid voting people they don't have a hard townread on because they need to avoid the other scum team become leader, too.
2. Scum players are likelier to lay low and not draw a lot of attention to themselves because they don't want to catch a cross-kill because cross-kills are what makes scum lose very fast in multiball.

This is why I townread Elbirn so hard, because he self voted but didn't seem aware of the mechanics all that much, then voiced support for Kokichi, who is not likely to be on the same scumteam as him if he was scum--if Elbirn were scum aware of multiball, he'd be way more hesitant to couch support of someone with some votes on them already. Furthermore, Elbirn's opening posts draw a lot of attention to him, imo, and wouldn't make sense coming from a multiball scum player PoV.

No, Joey, you don't understand
If there ARE multiple teams and more than one of them tries to kill Brass, then we end up with less dead town than we would have otherwise.
Alternatively, scum avoid Brass, which makes it more likely that they cross-kill and easier for us to win.
Making Brass world leader is pretty much a win/win. Only way it doesn't work out is if
1. The setup isn't multiball, but I've already outlined why it's got to be unless we're screwed when it comes to world congress anyway
2. The different teams/SK manage to all co-ordinate such that only one kill ends up on Brass.

No, Joey, you don't understand
If there ARE multiple teams and more than one of them tries to kill Brass, then we end up with less dead town than we would have otherwise.
Alternatively, scum avoid Brass, which makes it more likely that they cross-kill and easier for us to win.
Making Brass world leader is pretty much a win/win. Only way it doesn't work out is if
1. The setup isn't multiball, but I've already outlined why it's got to be unless we're screwed when it comes to world congress anyway
2. The different teams/SK manage to all co-ordinate such that only one kill ends up on Brass.

I don't think that number 2 is that unlikely to happen even if they dont coordinate and its just by chance. Also theres the obvious off-chance that only one of those team have the "tools" to assure that brass is getting killed (strongarm) which means that said team will probably be the only one trying to make the kill, anyway i understand your point but it wasn't really what i was trying to get to.

I wanted to find a way to keep the delegates in town hands by electing a block to receives the delegates day after day

I don't think that number 2 is that unlikely to happen even if they dont coordinate and its just by chance. Also theres the obvious off-chance that only one of those team have the "tools" to assure that brass is getting killed (strongarm) which means that said team will probably be the only one trying to make the kill, anyway i understand your point but it wasn't really what i was trying to get to.

I wanted to find a way to keep the delegates in town hands by electing a block to receives the delegates day after day

So what? We force a prisoner's dilemma situation on scum.
If one happens to have a strongarm/strongman, then it's very likely not unlimited use, so them having to burn a use just to get rid of our IC sounds like a win to me.

I do think that we can keep delegates in town hands, but the best place to start is with the confirmed town player, no?

Aaaaah, I'm just gonna post this and hope I'm right. I've been debating it because I think that if I am wrong and we make these setup assumptions, it could really kick us in the ass.

I was thinking a lot about what's keeping scum from just completely gaming the delegates, especially considering the snowballing that happens if scum manage to get multiple delegates.
As an earlier post of mine implies, I figured it was initially just a balance point of either scum knowing resolutions already (no info to be gained from being a world leader) or that a lot of scum voting a world leader in would be very obvious.
I then realized that it's much more likely the setup is multiball and that scum teams are only two or three players. Why's that?

1. What really tipped me off was the non-specificity of my role PM and the opening posts in regards to a 'scum team'. There's mention of eliminating 'all threats to town', but that's it.
2. I thought for sure the 'all threats to town' was an absolute nod to the game being multiball because of the wording, but after digging Venmar's mod-meta, I've discovered:
--a) Venmar uses the same wording even in his singleball setups with exclusion of an open setup he ran way back in 2012.
--b) Out of over 5 different setups of Venmar's design, only one of them was singleball entirely.
3. Given the flavor of the theme (multiple civilizations forming alliances, the fact people often play multiple 'teams', the multiple wincons in the game that different civs shoot for, etc.), there are several avenues to make this a multiball game
4. Singleball would actually make the World Congress mechanic unbalanced in favor of scum.
5. If anti-town factions have daychat, then there's NO WAY that the game is singleball, because the amount of co-ordination a full-size singular scumteam could do in this kind of setup with daychat would make the world leader mechanic almost pointless for town. However, if there are multiple smaller teams, daychat makes a lot more sense. I did not check Venmar's previous games to see if daychat was normal in his setups, but I do recall there being encryptors in the setup.

I had this revelation awhile back, between posts 100 and 200, because I had a pretty dynamic shift in how I was viewing the game/mechanics by 226 and forward.
Assuming multiball, we should be a lot more critical of the people who are laying low and self-voting, like Klazaam, because in multiball:
1. Scum players are likelier to self-vote and get a partner to boost them.
2. Scum players are likelier to avoid voting people they don't have a hard townread on because they need to avoid the other scum team become leader, too.
2. Scum players are likelier to lay low and not draw a lot of attention to themselves because they don't want to catch a cross-kill because cross-kills are what makes scum lose very fast in multiball.

This is why I townread Elbirn so hard, because he self voted but didn't seem aware of the mechanics all that much, then voiced support for Kokichi, who is not likely to be on the same scumteam as him if he was scum--if Elbirn were scum aware of multiball, he'd be way more hesitant to couch support of someone with some votes on them already. Furthermore, Elbirn's opening posts draw a lot of attention to him, imo, and wouldn't make sense coming from a multiball scum player PoV.

Mhm this makes a lot of sense. So I'm going to be on the look out for those who are scummy in general and not associative clearing, then.
Also this feels like town because it's such a deductive method that if it were scum they probably wouldn't be doing it cos already aware it's multiball/singleball and as such not as incentivized to look this stuff up

I think it's more likely that there's just multiple NKs present.

It's possible, I could see a SK actually. I'm not too sold on 2 mafia, and I don't think it's really needed to be discussed right now until we see night kills.

I've explained why it's important to consider right now.

I think the setup is either: 14-3-3-1 (bulletproof SK, lots of town power, protectives in scum/town), 15-3-3, or 15-2-2-2 or something similar to that.

Not a huge fan of you undermining the IC.

Ehhhh anything beyond 15-3-3 I don't wanna think about

I tried to pick what stood out, earlier I was searching for 'three teams' in the search bar and I found these.

[Ranmaru]

How goes the reading, Chara?

[Ranmaru]

Waddup Pidgey, Chara should be around.

[Ranmaru]

I gotchu bro. Orange Mark will help solve this game for us.

[Ranmaru]

Thor is my least confident scum read, more confident is Mark and then Gamma.

[Ranmaru]

I will say earlier I was townreading Joey/Thor and his absence is what sparked all this. I am saying there are three teams of two, and Mark is alone.

[Ranmaru]

At the time I thought there was one team of 2 and one of 4, but three teams of 2 made sense after the fact. It is possible that a third team could had done it instead with this theory in mind.

[Ranmaru]

With blue in the mix, it's harder for me to guess at who did what kill then, and if they had access to kills at all.

[Ranmaru]

Setup

Brassherald	Thor	Chara
Innocent Child	Religion Spreader	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Bujaber	Gamma Emerald	Klazam
VT	JOAT	VT
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Shaziro	Pidgey	Marshy
Vig x2	Catholic Spreader	Protestant Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Jodaxq	Ranmaru	Mark
Self Random Inventor	VT	Religion Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Creature	Elbirn	Dunk
Roleblocker	Private Security Guard	Pagan Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Varsoon	Action Dan	Kokichi
Rolecop	VT	Neighbouriser
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓
Nero Cain	LaserGuy	Almost50
JailKeeper	VT	Taoism Spreader
▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓	▓▓▓▓

[Ranmaru]

Now this makes the most sense to me, and it answers everyone's questions about the setup I had seen from time to time. We thought scum had to have powerful roles but actually, they need to have weaker roles because town also has weak roles, so it doesn't make sense for Thor and Mark to have Commuter, and Non-consecutive Doc.

[Ranmaru]

It's better for Mark to wait for no lynch, since he survives and can still kill. If he's by himself, survival is more important than any risky moves. Yet if he's not hammering, why isn't he putting his vote on Klazam for anyone else to hammer then so we can at least have a flip? Remember that his claim was funky, and so was Titus's.

[Ranmaru]

so you're saying Shaz is vig, and you think there are three teams with rotating kills?

i'm not sure. Joey is one of the few lockreads i've had consistently and i feel like toppling that could cost us the game if it's wrong. Thor simply being absent could be NAI, but you say you have meta on him and i don't so i'm less sure on that.

Something like that. I've been in a multiball setup where one scum team had kills, and the other had a delayed poison. So I'm thinking they both don't get kills, maybe they do get rotated, or maybe they have to wait until that team is phased out before getting the kills.

On Joey/Thor, I'd recommend we wait a few days and keep an eye on him. On Mark's flip though, we'd have to be wary of him.

[Ranmaru]

*Mark's Orange Scum Flip.

[Ranmaru]

He stated intent to hammer when Klazam was L-1, yet isn't voting now.

[Ranmaru]

Targetting Brass N2 is very convenient for Non-Consecutive Doc.

[Ranmaru]

Just ISO’d Titus and she told the truth. Non consecutive doctor. Target was N2 brassherald.

Really fucking stupid imho as n1 always heal the IC barring a damn good reason.

[Ranmaru]

Why Titus & Mark are Orange Scum

:

Titus's vote on Gamma is weird, here: #49. I ask her why she voted Gamma, and this is her response: #251. She doesn't give a convincing reason to be on Gamma, which reads as fake. In her #299, she responds to me but not to my entire substance. I feel like she couldn't actually respond, so that was part of why she was posting less during mid game of D1. Her #460 didn't have a solid conclusion for leaving Gamma. In her #521, she responds to Pidgey's town read of me, which stinks of scum trying to shoot down correct town reads by giving a counter point. Titus follows Varsoon in her #619, which is her orange mate. In her #1000 she states she was busy, but I think it's more her motivation. She started early and seemed to be steering things and then didn't do much afterwards, which shows she was only doing it for show. Her #3399 isn't believable, she hasn't really had much progression there, she voted Gamma after Chara did, but never really stated why nor has she stated a confident read. Again, it seemed like it was for show.

Mark's #4340 is weird. To me it seems like he was aware of the thread and when he sees myself start catching up. His #4345 feels disingenuous to me. He asks me for my current thoughts, and I give them and that just seems like such a calculated response. After I have interacted with him about it, he's never gave a conclusion on me, and gave this response to why: #5131. He states I would sort myself out later, clearly leaves out a read so that he can come back to that later. #5176 #5177 Here, after being proved wrong that Shaziro cannot be SK, Mark finally moves to me without any solid reasoning or backing whatsoever. This is the definition of backing down, but at an opportunistic time. Let's rewind, he's had me as 'you'll be sorted later' for this very opportunity that he might be proved wrong. Now, this all reads as him not caring to actually determine alignment, but rather pick and choose a target, and tunnel, until it's not feasible to push anymore and switch when it's time. It doesn't seem organic to me. It would be in Orange's best interest to avoid a red scum lynch, and this is what it seems like Mark is doing. Either push Shaziro or anyone not Klazam.

FOS: MARK

[Ranmaru]

That was a case I posted a while ago, so you can see my overall problem with Mark.

[Ranmaru]

Thank you. Upon Mark Scum, Look into Gamma next. Keep an eye on Thor, and read my reads lists.

[Ranmaru]

GOTTEM I TELL YOU MY BOIS

[Ranmaru]

Buja and Marshy sheep me tomorrow damn it

[Ranmaru]

Hrm well, I'm sold on Gamma. Take Mark's words as a grain of salt, but I will say I am not as confident in thor.

[Ranmaru]

GG my bois

[Ranmaru]

lel shout outs later, I suggest EVERYONE GIVE SHOUT OUTS OK

[Ranmaru]

lmao I apologize for misleading Bu into believing my wrong theories, and I forgive him. I will say his vote off Mark was suspicious, especially since he didn't really stay that active after. Just turns out he was town really confident in his reads. I let Marshy slip and LOL at his 'ran woulda told u guys if im scum' lollll

[Ranmaru]

i did not expect such a plot twist 212 pages into the game

I lol'd at this

[Ranmaru]

Sorry I mislynched u laser : [

Shout outs tonite

[Ranmaru]

Varsoon - Cool dude, I kinda scum read u but I never really pushed you ha, glad you died at night made it easier for me!

Nero Cain - Sup twin i'm glad we won as town sorry i scum read u lolz

LaserGuy Kiana Kaslana (**), Assemblerotws - Again, I was happy to see you replace in, I was just sad that I wasn't that sure of your slot due to Kiana haha. We'll play soon again!

brassherald (*) (Revealed as Innocent Child, Day 1)(Became Hated, Day 5) - I hope what I said affected you, but in the end you made the right decisions, and I'm glad for that. I also like how you killed Chara oopsies.

BuJaber (*) - Buja I will admit that you being so convinced on Mark made me think 'dang this guy is town' but your other stuff made me think 'oh shit he's scum with gamma' lol. I think you and I together as town can be a disaster because we'd just enable with each other with our theories. Anyway, I saw your reasoning for Pidgey scum. Yet you have to look at his motivation as well. Sure, he was fluffing, but in a town way. Anyway again, I *forgive* you for being distracted as I was the one that really forced you into your own wrong direction. It's alright. I want you to try to be less confident in your reads because I remember my super confident reads biting me in the ass at times, it's why I try to re-evaluate more.

Kokichi Koma - You're a cool dude, let's play again. Lol gamma was town but it's ok. We won. Whoo.

Creature - Hi creature, not much to say here, but I understand your feeling wrt being scum. Good luck next time.

Chara (*) - Nice playing with you, sorry to see you died in that way, but better luck next time.

Elbirn - Lol at you throwing yourself at Varsoon but we thought it was at gamma. You are funny, let's play again.

Gamma Emerald (*) - Sorry Gamma, I really did feel like you were scum. I guess you were more cautious because of your PR? Also, your 'i feel ur case on mark is strong but i wanna give him a chance' did kinda feel scummy. I would say try to be more solid with your stances dude. And be more proactive. Basically I want you to play like the WF as town forever. If you do I promise you I will put my life on the line for your slot. (Hopefully you're not scum when u do that lol)

Klazam (*) - I'm glad I saved you from a mislynch. I don't want you giving up next time, k? Good reads tho.

OnTheMark Titus - What alerted you to me was Titus's drop of activity D1 and your push on the Vig, and your sorting of me. I disagree that you should have done that as scum. Next time you 'think' you should do something, try the opposite to see how that comes out because if you 'try what you think' you might die like you did here.

Shaziro - Woot gg good stuff shooting Dunk, nice playing with you btw

ActionDan (*) - Sorry to see you were mislynched when I was out of the game, but good playing with u again

Thor665 (*) Joey_ Thor, thanks for replacing in, and I'm glad we were both town again. In the night I realized 'shit thor's town, this is not his scum game or he got much better as masking his scumminess. Joey, i told u I was town and titus was scum.

Dunkerdoodles - You're funny but I could tell u were scum just by how you voted Creature lolz

pidgey (*) - DUDE WE DUNKED MARK GOOD SHIZ AMIGO we gotta do it again sometime, i was mad when you were bein thrown around as a lynch but glad marshy died first lol

Jodaxq - I feel you on the inactivity. I do remember that, and it makes sense. Glad you were town here. : )

Almost50 - Thanks for trusting in me that I was town, told you I was town!

marshy (**) - Sup dude I let u slip but it's ok next time imma PUSH UR ASS if u don't wagon scum with me, you did seem townie here tho it's just ur associations which *could* have got u IGMEOU mo fo

Ranmaru (*) Pine, Caesar Wills It, Ranmaru (*) Pine, thanks for replacing in and sorry that I made you suffer but I guess it all ended well anyways

[Ranmaru]

Biggest shout out to Maestro for hosting this for us.

[Ranmaru]

I read the neighbor QT.

Lol sorry didn't mean to annoy you brass but you did seem like you weren't really putting that much effort but I forgive you cuz you were busy

Thor sorry for making you stretch yourself but I really do appreciate you joining and it helped me and others enjoy the game as you are always a nice presence to have in a game