Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Something_Smart]

I applied to join the NRG several months ago, and I also got no response. Should I send it again?

[Something_Smart]

I agree that Multitasking is a very problematic role in design and really should be axed. Honestly I think all normals should be only 1 action per night.

I'm at the other end of the spectrum here btw, I think the multitasking modifier should be removed and all scum should be multitasking by default. Forcing scum to give up their action if they're the last one alive creates positive feedback which is already a pretty big issue with mafia in general, and the tactical depth it adds is minimal (especially when people don't know if the last scum is non-multitasking or not).

[Something_Smart]

I would like to put forth the role modifier if Fragile - dies if targeted by an ability or if it uses an ability.

That sounds so unfun to play...

[Something_Smart]

That's closer, but I think it would encourage mods to put in roles like Suicide Doctor.

[Something_Smart]

Gravedigger I believe. They passively visit everyone who dies, or a random person who dies, depending on who you ask.

I think it has merit, but it's a little skeevy on the grounds that they don't know who they're going to visit.

[Something_Smart]

I like that. Seems more useful design-wise than specific finder.

[Something_Smart]

Concept: Roles that implicitly lie to the players (eg. A Jailkeeper-finder when there is no Jailkeeper, which is functionally a Named Visitor) should not be allowed in Normal Games.

Why not?

[Something_Smart]

It's not a lie. People are aware of the possibility of a curveball with roles like this. Calling it an implicit lie is pretty fair.

However these roles do have use besides just toying with the players. In the case of the game that likely sparked this, the point was to encourage the neighborizer to target scum. That said, in retrospect, it was probably a bad idea because of what happened in the game.

What it is is a violation of expectations, if you happen to expect than an X-Finder would never exist without an X. It's always possible for people to have incorrect expectations violated, so we have to strike a balance of which expectations are reasonable and which ones are unreasonable. In retrospect, I do feel that the expectation "there is a strongman" was reasonable enough, I just didn't expect it to matter in the way that it did. But overall, people should be familiar enough with normal rules and design philosophies that expecting no red herrings is unreasonable.

[Something_Smart]

About that role, Isis said (and I quote), "It's the kind of red herring that's never harmful."

Hopefully she'll agree with me that that's clearly wrong.

[Something_Smart]

Instead of separating abilities into "roles" and "modifiers" on the wiki, can we separate into "active roles", "passive roles", and "modifiers"?

A modifier is something that, well, modifies another role. Like Odd-Night; you can't just be a Town Odd-Night. But Bulletproof is also listed as a modifier, even though you can just be Bulletproof. (And Neighbor is listed as both, for some reason.) I think the current list was made with lack of acknowledgement of the third category "passive role", which would be something that doesn't modify or rely on any other ability, but also doesn't involve an action from the player.

The currently normal abilities that should be reclassified as passive roles are Enabler, Encryptor, Neighbor, Universal Backup, Mason, Miller, Traitor*, Ascetic, Bulletproof, Informed, and Macho. There's also Commuter, Strongman/Unstoppable, and Innocent Child, which are passive unless modified in certain ways; but technically with the Activated modifier any passive role can be turned active, so these roles can probably be grouped here as well.

*Traitor should really be considered an alignment, not a role. It affects wincons in a way that roles can't, and it shouldn't be changeable the way roles are. iirc there was recently a game with a Traitor Enabler and that feels extremely non-Normal to me.

Also, I think we can lose the "Roles/Modifiers which are explicitly Non-Normal include:" section. Everything not listed there is explicitly non-normal now that there is no greylist.

[Something_Smart]

Good point about Ninja, I was thinking about it from a scum factional kill perspective, but it can also be a modifier applied to specific actions. Maybe that modifier should be renamed Silent or something.