Problems with the Queues

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Post Post #125 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:39 am

Post by BBmolla »

I meant standardized role pms though.
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Post Post #126 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:43 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 125, BBmolla wrote:I meant standardized role pms though.
I believe that is a goal of both the Normal and Wiki teams
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Post Post #127 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:44 am

Post by BBmolla »

Example: Does a standardized doctor protect a kill or all kills?

I’ve always been one for consistency, I see a lot of roles that work different and would like to set a standard, even if just for the normal queue.

For the example above we could also just rename a doctor who stops all kills a Medic.

But I’m going off topic
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Post Post #128 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:44 am

Post by BBmolla »

Does a thread exist already that I’m missing?
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Post Post #129 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:45 am

Post by Psyche »

i feel like the roles thing would be finished faster if it were more open
once the role pm templates are done, making a generator based on them is trivial
omerta should be a public subforum imo
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Post Post #130 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Mathdino »

Yes, the thread exists in the wiki group, and hasn't been touched in weeks.

I started it as a wiki group member, by request from NRG and listmods. The obstacle was exactly what you're describing -- I don't know what different standardized roles should do. I proposed the idea of us as a wiki group just making the call by what we think it should be, and I was told it was up to the NRG, and to wait for the Normal changes.

This was actually part of why I applied for NRG -- I was hoping to speed up the process that would allow me to finish the wiki overhaul.

Until I receive some word across every normal role what "standard" means, I don't see much purpose in preemptively publishing (or crowdsourcing the work).
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Post Post #131 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:49 am

Post by Mathdino »

To be clear, the standardization of role PMs and role pages was listed as the very top priority for the wiki group. My understanding is that Open Setups are the next priority but that also hasn't received any attention or direction.
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Post Post #132 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:49 am

Post by Psyche »

this thing where volunteer work is hidden from view until it's done is part of the problem imo
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Post Post #133 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 11:59 am

Post by Mathdino »

Hilariously, wgeurts (the guy who basically designed the wiki as it currently is) and Lycanfire (who had been doing probably 2nd most work on the wiki) both applied for the wiki group and were unaware of the subforum because they weren't added to it until someone realised the mistake.

The whole point of a wiki is that all the work is completely crowdsourced. I think the original point of having it be hidden is that we were going to do SEO and social media stuff (which should be kept partially hidden I think). But none of that has happened, so.
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Post Post #134 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 12:01 pm

Post by BBmolla »

Yeah I had no idea it existed until 2 minutes ago

Edit: I just applied, I can at the very least get that discussion going.

Standardized roles are particularly important for roles such as Voyeur.
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Post Post #135 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 12:06 pm

Post by Psyche »

Like, putting stuff out there before it's perfect - I understand the psychological tension that keeps one from doing that, it defines my entire workflow most of the time. But not doing that is exactly the sort of thing that makes people ignorant of opportunities to help out, exactly the sort of thing that leads people to do redundant work instead of standing on each other's shoulders, exactly the sort of thing that makes contributing to the community an invisible and therefore thankless task that's hard to muster the motivation to do. It shouldn't take off-hand side questions in loosely related discussion threads to pull off some veil hiding the work being done to improve the site. No one is benefitted from that being the way things are gone about. It should be just as easy to see and participate in that stuff as it is to see in participate in an MD thread.
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Post Post #136 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 2:22 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 130, Mathdino wrote:Yes, the thread exists in the wiki group, and hasn't been touched in weeks.

I started it as a wiki group member, by request from NRG and listmods. The obstacle was exactly what you're describing -- I don't know what different standardized roles should do. I proposed the idea of us as a wiki group just making the call by what we think it should be, and I was told it was up to the NRG, and to wait for the Normal changes.

This was actually part of why I applied for NRG -- I was hoping to speed up the process that would allow me to finish the wiki overhaul.

Until I receive some word across every normal role what "standard" means, I don't see much purpose in preemptively publishing (or crowdsourcing the work).
This is a high priority for me too but I have no idea what you're doing because I don't have access to the wiki group, despite several attempts to apply, both via official channels, and via complaining in threads that the relevant people are likely to be reading and hoping they do something. (This is another of them!)

I was planning to write a role PM generator myself, unaware that there was a wiki group who were trying to do the same thing.

For what it's worth, the changes to the role PM generator have broken {{SetupPage}}, and thus a large number of pages about setups. I've made some changes to try to make it a bit more backwards-compatible but we're probably going to have to edit all the pages manually at some point.

(There are a few other features that are probably necessary, e.g. custom wincons per faction rather than needing to write them out each time. Also, there's a lot of scope for improvement in the code. However, I have nowhere to discuss this as the wiki group discussion isn't public.)

I'm willing to specify role PM wording myself if necessary, but there isn't a group within the NRG for standardising wording at the moment, nor any process in place for it. So I guess we'd need implosion to specify how he wants role PM wording to go forwards.
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Post Post #137 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 2:27 pm

Post by Mathdino »

That's on me. I left it incomplete when I didn't get feedback on whether to go through with it. I also didn't realise that {{SetupPage}} had already been used on a bunch of setups, and I can't find a list of ALL pages that use it. You're right that ultimately every page is going to have to be done. The Role PM generator primarily exists so that if we decide to change standard wording, it can be changed across the entire wiki, rather than forcing us to manually edit every single setup page with relevant roles.

If you're on Discord, I've set up a Wiki channel for better realtime communication. It's mostly for me/wgeurts/Lycanfire/NSG. Shoot me a PM if you are and I'll add you.

I was under the impression that the NRG had continuously been working on standard wording for the past few months. Hearing that I've been waiting on absolutely nothing is incredibly disappointing (and obviously not disappointed in you).
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Post Post #138 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 2:58 pm

Post by Psyche »

It shouldn't take off-hand side questions in loosely related discussion threads to pull off some veil hiding the work being done to improve the site.
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Post Post #139 (ISO) » Sat May 19, 2018 3:12 pm

Post by callforjudgement »

In post 137, Mathdino wrote:and I can't find a list of ALL pages that use it.
Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:SetupPage
If you're on Discord, I've set up a Wiki channel for better realtime communication. It's mostly for me/wgeurts/Lycanfire/NSG. Shoot me a PM if you are and I'll add you.
I don't use Discord; I much prefer IRC, although I'm rarely on that nowadays too.
I was under the impression that the NRG had continuously been working on standard wording for the past few months. Hearing that I've been waiting on absolutely nothing is incredibly disappointing (and obviously not disappointed in you).
We've been working on standard
definitions
of roles (many of which I've been editing into the wiki recently), but that's mostly for newly whitelisted roles (the long-standing ones, like Cop, are fairly well-defined already). That's quite different from standardising the wording, though; normally we look over a mod's role PMs to check that their wording matches the standard definition, but there's more than one way to express a standard role definition in English.
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Post Post #140 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:31 am

Post by SirCakez »

Why not assign two List Mods per queue? We certainly could get people to do it and it would help for situations where the List Mod goes V/LA or is too busy or whatever.
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Post Post #141 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:52 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Because that's unnecessary

Two listmods per queue??? Jesus
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Post Post #142 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:53 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

Automated sign ups is the only thing that will fix the queue issues (or I guess one could argue more reliable listmods... But I don't think people should expect someone to spend every day doing their job and listmodding)

I'll also point out there are a lot of people here complaining who I haven't seen apply for open positions so /shrug
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Post Post #143 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:58 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 140, SirCakez wrote:Why not assign two List Mods per queue? We certainly could get people to do it and it would help for situations where the List Mod goes V/LA or is too busy or whatever.
:lol: :lol:

It's reeeally not that simple and the number of people who apply is far less than you think!

When you take out joke apps and ones that simply do not stand the test, it is really limited!

Plus, why? We have a backup listmod and we all cover for each other! This is literally so unnecessary!
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Post Post #144 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 3:59 am

Post by brassherald »

I didn't even know there were open positions
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Post Post #145 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 4:00 am

Post by Mathdino »

There's just as many who applied for a bunch of positions and got no response

Reliability is the single most important part of being a listmod

Yet one is doing double duty

That's what we're saying, there's seemingly no interest in passing off the work to people who actually want to do it

Literally one position that does none of the list modding duties except counting /ins and firing games would fix at least 70% of the problems here
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Post Post #146 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 5:28 am

Post by Ranmaru »

In post 144, brassherald wrote:I didn't even know there were open positions
Same I do not see a 'apply for ____ mod now!' thread to suggest there is still help needed.
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Post Post #147 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 5:42 am

Post by xRECKONERx »

open positions are posted as global announcements for about a week when they're open, i dont know what to tell you
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Post Post #148 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 7:31 am

Post by brassherald »

In post 147, xRECKONERx wrote:open positions are posted as global announcements for about a week when they're open, i dont know what to tell you
Well maybe they should stay posted until they are filled...
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Post Post #149 (ISO) » Sun May 20, 2018 8:21 am

Post by Micc »

I had full intentions on applying to the next listmod opening...and then an opening got filled without an application process. Theres currently a listmod who has been doing double duty for months, and there still hasn’t been an application process.

I’d like to help, but I don’t have coding any knowledge. What I do have is a decent amount of free time that I’d be willing to deticate to improving the site. I think there’s a pretty good sized group of people in my position. The problem is that many of us have become discouraged because our attempts to get involved in the past have fallen on deaf ears. Personally I can say that I’ve been told the NRG wasn’t in need of more members when I offered to help. I’ve had my involvement as a Team Mafia moderator fall apart before my eyes only to find out that a different group of people had taken over the event without me even knowing. I’ve had an offer to help judge scummies be completely ignored.

So I’ll ask again, how does someone with no coding experience get involved with improving this site? I’ve got about 30 minutes a day that I’d love to deticate to something, I’m just waiting for someone to ask for the help.
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