Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[Mathdino]

Scum is always the 3rd vote on the lynch wagon

VOTE: NSG

[Mathdino]

Are we talking setup?

Cop and vig act tonight, jailkeeper does not

Problem solved

Cop nullreads, Vig distractions, lynchbait and universal scumreads

[Mathdino]

I'm not 100% on her currently, sorry to say

Like the more I brag about me reading NSG

The more the observer effect comes into play

I can read her in games that I'm not playing in

[Mathdino]

tl;dr

cop and vig are much more +EV individually than jailkeeper, which fucks other PRs and can't get hard guilties

the main thing is making sure they get to use their shots and don't get fucked over by the mafia PRs

-

we are not going to discuss the specifics of who to cop/vig, because that gives mafia PRs information

- as long as we set the general rule of vigging lynchbait/useless-people/universal-scumreads and copping anyone else who won't get NK'd, they should be able to avoid each other

- cops should claim guilties immediately. otherwise we're hypocopping innocents tomorrow

that's about it
the setup is good in that it actually heavily discourages night action plans
just don't be dumb

[Mathdino]

Would NSG be aware that jjh has a reputation for being super obvtown as town? I, as scum in this playerlist, would absolutely not be trying to lynch jjh of all people.

I'm feeling mafia-lazy. Someone give me a read on ruru to sheep?

[Mathdino]

math, i'm town this game, don't waste time thinking about it.

yeah but that's how you'd talk to me if you were scum

so why waste your time saying NAI things

[Mathdino]

zor feels solidly out of a "player returning from hiatus" scumrange
but i also have only skimmed his ISO because lordy i am not reading all of that

what are the cool wagons? can i chainsaw defend zor and/or ruru?

[Mathdino]

VOTE: pinturicchio

please tell me you have a 100% secret tell on pintu

[Mathdino]

NSG give me a good wagon that's not jjh

i find wagoning jjh right now to be low equity on a strategic level

[Mathdino]

i am offended on a personal level that you are not townreading me and i am 150% willing to mislynch you for tilting my game by not calling me town and leaving it at that

something something you will win the majority of your games just by assuming i'm town

etc etc

[Mathdino]

@Dino I know you don't like gutreads or at least is the worst type of reads from your perspective along with cold meta, but I played a long ass game being her scumpartner and until I see another game where she's scum, I will say I have an ability to read her towngames with a probability of 100%

that would be considered hot meta lol

i only personally dislike gutreads because i'm bad at it

gutreads get progressively better the more players in a game know each other well

so yeah i'll trust you

[Mathdino]

heavily agree ofrhz is not scum with zoronos but zoronos is also already town so that doesn't really help much

but i'll throw my hat in

VOTE: ofrhz

[Mathdino]

yes, he has more age / experience / education than all of the rest of us combined

[Mathdino]

for anyone wondering, the meme originated from this post

the ultimate joke is that this interpretation was the opposite of correct

[Mathdino]

he is a very amusing player

this seems relatively normal

always check posting history onsite before you call someone on lurking imo

he will definitely not replace out

[Mathdino]

Why does ellitell have 2 definitions smh

It's basically stalking someone until you have a secret meta tell on them

[Mathdino]

Why should I not be metaread? xD
I'm aware of my meta. I'm not at the point of being able to control it, but I'm definitely aware of it
My biggest problem is being gut read as scum as scum tbh
Like there's always 2 or 3 people insisting I'm scum by tone but it goes beyond paranoia when I'm scum

But I digress
Ofrhz still a good wagon, zor still town, NSG might be town, ruru town correct?

I'm not entirely sure I trust NSG on blackstar so I'll try to corroborate when I do my ISOs

[Mathdino]

I feel like jjh should be townier by now as town

I'm hesitant to waste time there if he's just gonna town it up later but I'm pretty concerned

[Mathdino]

You guys are doing a bang-up job of talking mafia theory
Is ruru still town? Chainsaw defence of me feels weird

Davesaz is more than likely town for this

[Mathdino]

Wait yeah ruru would always do that as both alignments, she sees mafia theory similarly to me

Your investigation should probably lead you to realise that I'm just low on mafia inspiration in general this week, dave
You're not allowed to discuss ongoings but you're still allowed to privately check them

If you guys start wagoning obvtown I might get upset but as it is most of the most active players are town
And this bores me

[Mathdino]

Ruru stop WKing me lol
This game is fine and deserves more of my attention, it's entirely me being busy IRL

It's time for this
VOTE: jjh927

[Mathdino]

If the counterwagon off of you is blackstar that's really not viable

[Mathdino]

I'm voting jjh because I know he's super obvtown as town and he hasn't obvtowned
We've discussed this privately after he died in the game I modded so he knows my expectations
He understands my vote so he's not scumreading me for it
So he can't just 1v1 me

NSG paranoia is healthy for NSG in my experience, please continue being paranoid

Dave and ruru need to stop their shit because they clearly recognise that the other has had different experiences

[Mathdino]

Getting pretty close to a gamestate of Too Many Townreads guys

Zor should be a core townread, so should ruru
Hitalt, dave, and NSG are in the outer ring for me

Everyone else is being townread by someone but if I included seeped reads here things wouldn't go well

[Mathdino]

I don't think scum.him votes me here though and sring me over the interactions he had with me since he started actually posting is probably consistent with town unaware of meta / possibly not really reading the thread

Welcome to davesaz, yeah

What's your lynchpool?

Edit: velcome

[Mathdino]

Jjh what's your take on too many townreads
I almost wanted to wagon Smart but he vla so that'll do nothing

[Mathdino]

Why is ruru a "core townread"

Meta is supposed to be night and day
I know I wasn't accepting sheeped reads but this one is one I particularly trust

The only uncomf thing is WKing me but like I said she sees mafia theory very similarly to me and would do this as both alignments

[Mathdino]

{nsg}
{BlackStar, ruru}

Crazy bout a northside gal

[Mathdino]

Tfw Dino sheeping NSG sheeping pintu

What a good game

Pintu could be scum for that kind of confidence tho

[Mathdino]

Missed that post

Spreadsheets are bad for sorting players returning from hiatus

Edit: fwiw your bottom 3 is mine as well
Why aren't you townreading Hitalt

[Mathdino]

Yeah he's articulated some reads in ways that scum usually don't

His reads don't seem to actually follow an agenda and he's stubborn in a very human way

I was going to PoE wagon him but then I isod him and he's actually pretty solid

[Mathdino]

White knighting, aka hard defending a townie against an evil voter

Yes that is what I am saying

It's not just a PoE read, it's me assuming that scum jjh is incapable of obvtowning

[Mathdino]

Yeah, stubborn
That's very human and is between a playstyle tell and a towntell

[Mathdino]

What does it matter? Neither of those things are scumtells except by meta

[Mathdino]

people with a super stubborn meta can usually be read by PoE, BoP (if they're good), or just "metadive them and see if their pushes make sense"

derpy hooves in particular is my go-to on that

i would lol if hitalt was another derpy hooves alt

haven't analysed ISO enough to really althunt and i don't really feel the need to althunt this game

[Mathdino]

Why it matters -> scum play is effectively an extended active lurk. Look towny without actually helping progress to a game solve. They want to appear to be doing useful things (finding scum, voting, etc) without actually contributing.
I find a critical difference between a towny that really really believes X is scum and we should lynch them (even if they're going it alone / tunnelling), and a scum that has vote parked because they need to be voting / 'suspecting' someone or else they're obvious, but don't really care if that person gets lynched.

So, to repeat, do you feel that HitAlt is actively pressing the read, vote parking, or somewhere in between?

I disagree with your priors. I think that a lot of townies are perfectly willing to votepark and feel the pressure to suspect SOMEONE but also don't care who gets lynched.
Consider that scum have more alignment information and thus have more reason to care who gets lynched than town, who is effectively gambling.

That said, one useful tell I think I can pull from a modified version of your logic is
does HitAlt's conviction match up with his stated reads?

I'll ISO HitAlt again.

Ugh acronyms.
BoP?
PoE is process of elimination, obviously.

BoP is Burden of Proficiency. i.e. someone can be read by how correct they are. Usually means that a player who's known for being strong as town (cough me) can be read by how much scum they catch by the end of the game. Or by whether they get NK'd. They're burdened by being proficient at the game, and their scumgames can suffer as a result.

[Mathdino]

It totally worked! I had one scum on D1 but got distracted, and was mostly solely responsible for driving a D2 scum lynch

I've bussed but never that convincingly.

[Mathdino]

SCUM DOESNT ROLEFISH REEEE

okay this page is not very useful

those of you who want to be useful, let's crowdsource a read on hitalt!

[Mathdino]

okay so here's my fully realised take on hitalt

snip

This gives me scummy vibes.
Might be the RvS-mood affecting Dino here, but the tone is off.

this post is not a very pro-scum post to make
literally throwing out an incorrect gutread on a player who is semi-known to be gutreadable

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

Posts like this always ping me too.
They aren't even that "late", so the whole "wow-thing" feels off.

I'm obviously nitpicking as we don't have much yet, but I'm bored so..

self-awareness

...aaaand Zoro is different here too. (I've now read two games from them)

hidden effort

Duck above is correct.
Pinochhio can seem like scum until D2, and then be such an obvious toen.
Dino likes to break setups so that part is NAI, but I stand my ground on his tone being off previously.

standing his ground, his read on me is actually nuanced
as is his strategic take on pintu

I genuinely think you have me pinned for a mislynch and jumped on board out of sheer opportunism.

There would be easier targets in the game if I wanted mislynch.
But so it happens, I want to buss you D1.

i agree with hitalt's self-defence here

basically hitalt's posts seem like they'd only be +scum EV if he was trying to play to his town meta
but he has no meta, because he is an alt!

he's clearly done a fair amount of effort behind the scenes but he's done fuck-all to make a show of it
there's an element of apparent effortlessness that i think rings super town

[Mathdino]

i'm pretty into this game

i think we have a good shot of just PoEing this

jjh's pintu vote is actually pretty good from his POV

i need to actually get through blackstar's ISO if i want to do something there other than just sheep NSG

[Mathdino]

Care to explain why the vote is good?

I feel as though it's a vote on someone I townread... Dunno how his perspective should change that but you can probably enlighten me

well he townreads ofrhz and that changes the gamestate a bit

pintu is just a solid PoE scumread if jjh and ofrhz are both town
also means he's given up the blackstar scumread
which NSG thinks is bad so i probably also think is bad

why ya townreading pintu?

[Mathdino]

I literally just opened the thread to talk about how TW is a good pick for scum
The indignation rubbed me the wrong way
I didn't mention it initially because he's done that shit to me as town in 721 so it'd be nice if people could compare

Hey Hitalt
Pls no copping Hitalt or talking about who to cop, remember scum has a framer guys
We don't want to play a WIFOM game, just cop whoever

[Mathdino]

455 is super NAI from him

The issue is his reaction to getting voted

[Mathdino]

Mfw you jackasses get bored just as I get interested in the game

Hitalt just spewed town ftr

[Mathdino]

Literally forgetting that scum has a framer in addition to my already strong townread?

My boys getting nightkilled

[Mathdino]

Right, scum doesn't actually do that unless they're tryna fake a townslip

And no i did not

[Mathdino]

been sick. caught up.

sounds like jjh heavily warrants a metaread if he's going to be a lynch contender

TW has slightly more town equity as of these past few pages
i'm so wary about fully disclosing a read on TW before i'm confident in it
so let's just not lynch him today

[Mathdino]

Ok guys real talk: the setup is called "Sharing is Caring", but Mathdino is a dinosaur with really really short hands; how could he share if he can't give you a hand? And by the name of the setup, we can infer that Sharing = Caring, then, if Mathdino can't share, Mathdino doesn't care, quod erat demonstrandum.

Now, Mathdino not caring could mean a lot of things, but what if he doesn't care of people dying because he's scum? That's a possibility, we can't dismiss it.

VOTE: Mathdino

mfw this vote has been left on me all game

if your vote can still be RVS mine can too

VOTE: pinturicchio

OMGUS

[Mathdino]

No, not really, that was a joke.

It's just a wagon I want to be pursuing right now. jjh wagon died.

The last few pages bored the shit out of me. If you'd like me to comment on anything, lemme know.

[Mathdino]

i'm not really enthused about anyone right now? my best work is done post-flip
D1 i prefer to just sheep or PoE a lynch on anyone i'm not townreading

TW is a tough read and i'm only null-town on him
i'll check ofrhz and NSG ISOs

[Mathdino]

Math: Here, I wrote this earlier tonight but decided to hold off on posting it. It's a couple hours out of date, I haven't updated it for the last page or so of posts.

Input?

Spoiler: last vc colorized

state of my thoughts with some mild coloring applied. (I realize the green makes it hard to read the names, that's kind of intentional. I wanted them filtered out)

ofrhz

(4):

northsidegal

,

BlackStar

, the worst,

HeWhoSwims

,
the worst (3):

HitAlt

, jjh927,

ofrhz

,
jjh927 (1): Mathdino,
Mathdino (1):

pinturicchio

,

ruru

(1): davesaz,
Something_Smart (1):

ruru

,

Not Voting: Something_Smart,

Zoronos

,

If I'm putting something_smart aside, that means it's 3/4 scum in MathDino, JJH, the_worst, and davesaz.
If the worst is town, that means jjh is probably scum on the wagon, and daze is scum off the wagon, and I'm wrong about something_smart (I don't think there's a solid scum-dino -> town-Duck associative right now)
If the worst is scum, that probably still puts davesaz as scum off the wagon, and makes me think my HWS town-lean is wrong because he +1'ed HitAlt's stupid Zoronos+TW associative, possibly intending to use it if his partner got flipped while voting the counterwagon.

So, the big question atm is whether it's correct or not to put something_smart aside, and to fix the ??'s in my sort on JJH and davesaz.

I don't understand the strength of your townread on pinturicchio.

I think you're stretching a bit for D1 into a position where you're basically going to HAVE to reevaluate a lot of your reads when one flip turns your POV upside down. Your game, your playstyle though.

That definitely puts some things in perspective though. The VC isn't inconsistent with scum in {jjh, the worst, ofrhz}.

S_S doesn't seem to have done much readable yet.

[Mathdino]

holy balls i was just ISOing the two of them

i was just about to say that it's not at all unlikely that there's also scum in {S_S, NSG}
if i were confident on that i'd be voting there since a coin flip is always super high EV
buuuut i'm not confident on that

my main problem with S_S is that it seems unfounded to get up in arms with a player clearly working off a lot of PoE
scumreading him just because he hasn't posted anything townish

it seems like a lot of his reads are uncharacteristically based around interaction with his slot

and i'm not really getting the town S_S vibes i was getting the last couple times i played with him

he tends to hipfire more than he has here
my understanding is that he's intentionally delivering less (so people don't call him out for switching his reads a lot)
buuuut that's not exactly a townish way to change your playstyle

[Mathdino]

I've avoided checking out ofrhz too much given that I've mislynched him before.

On the other hand the fact that he literally has no scum meta means we're still vulnerable to getting snowed by someone who we don't have a scum-profile on.

He was previously mislynched for not playing like his town self. and for claiming scum lol
I guess I'm not sure at this point what a GOOD reason for scumreading ofrhz would look like.

So let's start here:
Why are people townreading him?

[Mathdino]

Also Math I'm not intentionally lowering my content level. It's summer and I have a job and I'm busier than during the rest of the year. And I was away last weekend and will be again this weekend but I'll get in what I can during the week.

I understand. I've also been busier than usual. I'm not referring to your post count, I'm referring to your content per post ratio, if that makes sense.

Also there's a reason that I'm hesitant to share scumreads early. I use phrasing like "slightest of scumreads" for a reason, and then people completely ignore it and get confused about why my reads are changing so easily.

I interpreted this to mean that you're intentionally withholding some of your content.

I got to a pretty good place reading S_S last time by doing a meta checkup. Will probably do that again here at some point.

For anyone interested, check his post history for Three In One, the micro game. He was town twice in a row.

[Mathdino]

232 seems like a joke between friends.
Plus early in my scum history I would just dole out townreads to people voting me. That doesn't seem at all inconsistent with scum-ofrhz.

Reasonable/cooperative is pintu's playstyle. Granted, he's blown up once as scum, but since he's already done that he can't exactly AtE up the thread anymore when NSG and I are ingame.

[Mathdino]

Check out this entire ISO starting from here for "things that work great one game but that you can never do again".

I almost relate to pintu -- I get the vibe that he doesn't actually much enjoy playing scum and he seems to get slightly more indignant when he has to play it.

[Mathdino]

i think i'm on record elsewhere for saying that if i were scum with NSG i would just bus her so i wouldn't get BoP'd for misreading her later on

granted i'm literally on record saying that so wifom wifom wifom

pintu do you have scumreads?

cuz it seems like this game is really lacking scumreads

town is still {ruru, Zor, HitAlt} i agree

[Mathdino]

very true

tbh i've been avoiding a read on most people

i stopped doing ISO reads lists a few months back when i realised that was a scumtell for me
and started getting into ISOs with serious metadives
i haven't had much time for metadives these past few weeks so i guess i'm afraid of being wrong after ISOing?

the point is that i'm still kind of getting my bearings and i have skipped an unusual number of posts this game

checking NSG now

[Mathdino]

okay so keeping in mind that everyone has a 3/4 chance of being town and i already have 3 solid townreads

i'd put NSG at 85-90% town

so if i get dayvigged that's where i'm at

[Mathdino]

i mean the best gamestate is where all the bad townies are also obvtown
so the good townies have to get NK'd or wagoned

i think jjh is stalling -- he says he doesn't obvtown conventionally, fine, that's cool
i also don't hardtownread people conventionally

i do townread his previous towngames in a way that i do not townread him here
he doesn't seem that interested in solving this game
he's active and all but there's a fire missing

i'm good outsourcing my vote to NSG today if it means we get a flip
VOTE: jjh927

[Mathdino]

it's actually pretty hilarious how many people have, over the past few months, decided to fake a scumlean on me just to prevent me from getting nightkilled

so while i'm a little bit indignant at doing all sorts of logic that i don't think scum-me could fake

i guess you're right that this is the best place to be

[Mathdino]

So if we lynch JJH and he flips green and I die in the night ~mysteriously~ I'd recommend having a think about HWS. I'm not at 'tunnel until dead' levels of surety or 'murder with vig' levels of surety, but I'd recommend giving that slot increased scrutiny if I perish.

You got it.

I'll sign off on that too.

[Mathdino]

I read his ISO and he doesn't seem to have trouble posting and keeping up with the thread.

It seems like whenever I call someone low-content they accuse me of accusing them of lurking when that's not the case. He IS posting, but he's not doing much with what activity he has.

So I'll revise that to "active enough". I don't really care whether or not he's active, I'm not policying him for lurking lol.

On Math:
We don't have to ignore the meta take right off the bat. It's lazy. It's not the only time in this game he's taken an approach to this game that is lazy. I would like him to not be lazy, but it doesn't mean he's scum. That said, while I haven't played with him before, I can see he's been doing the whole townread PoE thing- even if I don't think his reads are necessarily accurate here. Probably town, and should be easier to place as the game goes on.

On Davesaz:
Either result is possible.

But no seriously he's probably town because he's got this air of semi-competent cluelessness going and IDK if he can replicate that as scum because I haven't seen him play scum but my natural assumption is that it's very difficult to fake this kind of authentic tendency to bark up the wrong tree. I'd anticipate that he might actually make sense as scum? Not 100% sure but unless someone with more of a grasp on his meta tells me otherwise, I will be assuming he is town.

Good people to ask about btw

This is a nothingpost that ends with unnecessary slight buddying tbh.

- I don't think his read on me is as nuanced as it might seem on the surface. It's mostly just commentary on my play. IIoA.

- I have no idea what the fuck he's trying to say about davesaz although I roughly agree with this read.

[Mathdino]

So in that case, jjh spent a paragraph detailing a read that I already had, which is "dave's reads/reasoning are so out of left-field that he's prob outside his scumrange".

Like I said, I agree with this read, but it's still not that interesting.

I don't know what I'm looking at re: Activity Overview. With the exception of me not being the 2nd highest poster, it seems pretty normal for everyone in this game.

[Mathdino]

Ruru I changed my mind after actually reading NSG iso

You can kinda get a sense of what work I have or haven't put in reading through my iso

Sorry about the confusion tho

[Mathdino]

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation
I'm that guy that only reads one side (the incorrect side) of a political debate and then walks away like "well yknow its BOTH SIDES that are the problem here"

[Mathdino]

my main problem with S_S is that it seems unfounded to get up in arms with a player clearly working off a lot of PoE
scumreading him just because he hasn't posted anything townish

it seems like a lot of his reads are uncharacteristically based around interaction with his slot

I felt like smarts position on NSG was reasonable reading through his side of the conversation

Huh

okay so i was like

S_S sure is scummy here, but if i put myself in his shoes, his position on NSG actually seems reasonable

if i already know smart is town

idk man i'm not a bastion of consistency, my reads look really weird when i'm in the middle of reevaluating/catching up lol

NSG is town now so it doesn't matter
S_S decent pick for scum but i still need to refamliarize myself with his meta

[Mathdino]

I don't think changing my mind is lynchbaity personally
It just dilutes my intended message and makes my charisma meter take a hit

Zor highly unlikely scum
Likely nightkill, it's just not worth talking about

[Mathdino]

If you're only scumreading one of us off the association, you're better off waiting for flips than tryna call a scumteam d1

[Mathdino]

i know i'm not helping any case here but i played 2.5 days of a game once by straight up wholesale impersonating NSG's town meta so i'm wondering if i'd try to write some solid-ass townposts for her if we were scum together

okay so we gotta lynch someone and everyone thinks they themselves are a suboptimal lynch

i put out the call for reasons to townread ofrhz
i am disappointed with the lack of response

why should i townread ofrhz

[Mathdino]

oh i missed the "ofrhz is she" conversation whoops

i just noticed ofrhz having scum meta

nacho apparently read her by shitty logic and bad reads

in PYP ofrhz had decent reads but poor expression of them

i'm not sure i have a profile for how town vs scum ofrhz reacts to a wagon

OKAY TIME TO STOP BEING LAZYDINO
READING THE ISO NOW

[Mathdino]

okay yeah ofrhz is probably town, who the fuck is tunneling this slot

[Mathdino]

VOTE: ofrhz
good thinkin tho!

I like where you're coming from, after extracting a bit more of your thought process.
tbh I think I'm being dumb with ofrhz. tonally she seems similar to our last game, but there's something awkward there.

also wagon motivation checks out

holy balls what is this vote

VOTE: the worst

[Mathdino]

You did that in 2 mins?

yep

posts like 265 and 785 are good not-brain-dead pieces of reasoning

504 claiming that your meta this game is like night and day from your completed scum meta is a ballsy claim to make as scum

775 seems like a solid set of reads

i'm not really reading for how much i agree with you

like i have 2 methods of reading

1. critically read someone for their alignment
2. read someone's posts for the quality/accuracy of their reasoning

if i only have to do one then things go much quicker

[Mathdino]

so let's just get this fuckin straight guys

pull up TW ISO and ctrl+f by "ofr"

so what we got is a soft defence of ofrhz throughout the entire first half of the day
- WHY ARE PEOPLE SCUMREADING OFRHZ HMMMM? (345)
- IDK OFRHZ KINDA SEEMS LIKE TOWN (317)
- STOP FLIP FLOPPING ON OFRHZ (306)

and then suddenly he's like "whelp NSG, blackstar and dino are on the wagon, maybe i'm stupid, WAGON HO!"
ignoring the fact that i was obviously just sheeping someone and didn't have a read on ofrhz myself

amusing sidenote, i missed 664 literally asking if people are ctrl+f'ing "ofrhz" in his ISO

regardless, it's opportunistic as fuck, ofrhz is known to be an easy D1 lynch

[Mathdino]

i'm not going to entertain a "the worst is scum because ofrhz is scum and TW is bussing/distancing her" theory when i'm not scumreading ofrhz in the first place lol

notable that TW has basically sheeped NSG onto 2 different people that he wasn't really even scumreading

[Mathdino]

m'bad, 3 different people

my scumpool is something like

one of the worst/jjh
Smart (pending meta review)
HWS
pintu

core town is still {ruru, Zor, HitAlt} although i would really like to feel confident on ruru given that i didn't come up with that read and someone else did
NSG can probably be added to that for now

[Mathdino]

pintu i missed your fairly decent case because it got drowned out by davesaz and ruru arguing for 2 pages about mafia theory and how to meta me when i'm literally not posting

[Mathdino]

at some point y'all gonna have to accept that i did not read the majority of this game and it is a relatively good assumption that i have not read post #XYZ until i have explicitly said that i read it

i can trust you on town ruru without trusting your alignment
just like you're trusting me on town NSG without trusting my alignment

you having been scumbuddies with ruru is a pretty decent reason so i'll leave her as 3rd down on my townpool

but yeah i probably would have had different reads if i was present for more things lol

[Mathdino]

at some point y'all gonna have to accept that i did not read the majority of this game and it is a relatively good assumption that i have not read post #XYZ until i have explicitly said that i read it

caveat: i have now read the majority of this game just by reading the majority of the ISOs in this game

i was not however reading that much in real time outside of "find me some good reads to sheep"

[Mathdino]

Second paragraph, touché. First paragraph, ok, but if you don't start townreading me soon I'll BoP lynch you 'cause you know how to read me (this, of course, is a joke... Or is it? )

tell that to NSG my man

she has like 50 secret tells on you, i just sheep her read on you to hell and back

@the worst: just got back from newbie 1865
ofrhz scumgame characterized by consistently contrived/stretchy reasoning mixed in with some decently worded reasoning
it's walls of gilded shit basically

i don't see that here basically

[Mathdino]

the joke is that her tells are consistently wrong and i have thus been consistently wrong by extension

[Mathdino]

as in you should read both 1865 and 1867 for ofrhz scum meta

possibility of pintu/smart scum theatre seems low right?

maybe scumpool is something like
worst/jjh
pintu/smart
HWS

in descending order

[Mathdino]

His vote on me is awful but I don't think he's reading particularly closely either so I'm really not sure
I'm not townreading him as much as he seems to think in saying that I'm buddying him this game
He wishes I would buddy him
That said, he's a bad lynch d1 and I think he's better saved for lategame

You're welcome duckling I did it for you

[Mathdino]

I'm disappointed you're actually townreading me as uncharacteristically hard as I thought you were

[Mathdino]

Okay so why are you townleaning me

I know why I'm town this game but I don't think it's within your Mathdino reading range to actually see it
So I'm very confused

[Mathdino]

I legit have no idea why you're townreading me

If it's wrong then I'll literally just say "no that's within my scumrange lol"

Are you seriously pr hunting me

[Mathdino]

His vote on me is awful but I don't think he's reading particularly closely either so I'm really not sure
I'm not townreading him as much as he seems to think in saying that I'm buddying him this game
He wishes I would buddy him
That said, he's a bad lynch d1 and I think he's better saved for lategame

You're welcome duckling I did it for you

Maybe my brain isn't working at the moment, but I'm confused about pronouns in a couple of these.
Line one: His = JJH, me = the_worst
Line two: I'm = the_worst, he = Mathdino?
Line three & four: He / him = Mathdino?

Everything is the worst talking about Mathdino except the last line

I was being cheeky

[Mathdino]

I mean all 3 are pretty scummy
The chance that we're getting snowed is hilariously low

The 2 scum on one wagon is in fact the most statistically likely scenario
Or it would be if smart and hws were voting

[Mathdino]

I think I'm pretty satisfied with the day
VOTE: jjh927

Welcome to the beginning of the end of the beginning

Consolidate wagons, people

[Mathdino]

Is there anything else that needs to happen today? Anything you guys want me to actually read?

Decent chance I get killed but I'm here all night folks

[Mathdino]

Not town

Gut says not scum with jjh though so decent lynch contender tomorrow in the worst case

Someone should meta read him if he has scum meta

He feels like he's tonereadable but I'm not the one to be doing that

[Mathdino]

Math: my notes have odds of scum JJH+the worst being low odds. Did your read on the worst change or is this a compromise towards wagon unification?

I have them at equal odds of being scum independently so I don't really care about unpacking that associative

NSG thought they were bussing earlier so

[Mathdino]

I never stopped scumreading jjh
I just wanted to see what would happen if I pushed TW instead

[Mathdino]

MathDino I'm not worried about yet, because he WILL likely be the first NK, and if not, we then assess his play D2 more closely.

stop saying these kinds of things unless you specifically intend to influence the NK with your words

there are some town thought processes that are best left private and unsaid

[Mathdino]

Im available to contribute to a worst lynch. Hes just difficult to lynch unless I have extreme confidence on that read, which I don't.
I guess I could go dictator mode and fake confidence but that just dilutes the times I really am confident.

[Mathdino]

Hey does anyone remember that game I just modded

That was lost because town didn't fucking vote, even in lylo

Stop not voting holy shit its so tilting to see 3 days on the deadline and people actively not using their vote for shit

[Mathdino]

What? I'm checked out of the game, I don't have much more to say

I've done my part creating a gamestate where I'm comfortable with both lynches lol

I need flips to really do some hardcore analysis

I'm waiting on you guys

[Mathdino]

Oh fucking lol I misses the claim
I don't believe it because I'm pretty sure that's what scum would do
But I don't cc
VOTE: the worst

[Mathdino]

How do you post without reading pagetop

I actually only read the first paragraph and was like LET ME TELL YOU WHY I'M NOT POSTING

Then immediately after I saw the second paragraph about ccs and felt stupid

[Mathdino]

I'm not lynching an unccd PR
It would be pro town for the jk to fall on their sword here
No tricks, just lynch scum and give cop/vig another shot

[Mathdino]

Meh you're right about redacted
I just mean in a general sense that scum would want to fakeclaim pr

Whats the vc

[Mathdino]

Well a vig wouldn't cc and a cop might just gambit here. The jk is useless though and should be ccd.

[Mathdino]

What if the dinosaur is scum and he's going to use the fact that jjh claimed jk to argue that he can't possibly be on the scumteam

I would do that, therefore I would never use that argument as to why I'm town

[Mathdino]

Outside possibility of hws just suicide bombing jjh

Did either of them crumb

Please tell me yall crumbed

[Mathdino]

It's a fair trade yeah
Puts us in 9p

Vig shouldn't auto shoot hws if that's the case
Confscum should be handled by the lynch

[Mathdino]

Jjh is more scum by meta and whatnot than hws is tho
VOTE: jjh927

End it
Cop and vig remember to act and to not do literally exactly what scum expects

[Mathdino]

As a highly likely nk candidate, I don't really think there's much discussion being cut of

I'm satisfied

[Mathdino]

The worst is probably town guys
If you're gonna lynch him wait until day 3 please? Just trust me

NSG probably didn't bus, final call there is town

There's a deepwolf somewhere still

[Mathdino]

Yeah S_S was obviously a vigshot. Not a bad one, could've been better.

NSG being killed heavily implicates the worst, who I was just about to come into the day defending.

I have a hypo-inno on BlackStar.

And I assume HWS was kept alive because his death gives cop/vig another shot. Shouldn't matter -- JK becomes super powerful the fewer scum there are.

[Mathdino]

It's also possible that I'm alive in order to defend HitAlt. That flip de-townifies HitAlt ftr, who was basically solely an independent townread.

Or maybe NSG was killed because my flip basically confirms NSG as town anyway? Who knows.

[Mathdino]

Okay jjh's ISO spews Zor and ruru as town.

Sad because those were already our core-town.

Inno: BlackStar, HWS
Town: Zor, ruru

To sort: dave, HitAlt, ofrhz, pintu, the worst

Please hypo-claim an inno if you don't have a guilty.

HWS is obviously exempt from this.

[Mathdino]

Or she was killed because she is a good player. Though I'd wonder why her and not you as so far I have more towny experiences with you.

Either way I'm still town on Hitalt

No yeah that was undoubted. The NK pool was {Mathdino, NSG, the worst, Zor, HWS}. First 3 get NK'd D1 all the time, Zor was up there.

She's a valid NK, but if scum wanted to kill powertowns, I was the right call. Unless there was a reads difference between us, or some kind of strategic reason.

I have a hypo-inno on BlackStar.

Explain this "hypo-inno"

I hypothetically claim cop with an innocent result on BlackStar.

Everyone else should claim their hypothetical innocent (and then act like they actually have that innocent). This gives the cop cover, and if the cop dies tonight, we still have their result without them having to claim.

[Mathdino]

Needless to say, a cop would claim their actual innocent but pretend that they're just a VT helping to give the cop cover.

[Mathdino]

Good point re: NSG, forgot about that.

I'll set up the vote counter so we can get some links to specific votes.

Don't work too hard. VCA is so much more fun in 2018.

[Mathdino]

come gather round people
wherever ya roam
and admit that the waters around you have grown

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76359
playerList=northsidegal{nsg},Mathdino{md},HeWhoSwims,pinturicchio,ofrhz,ruru,the worst{duck},jjh927,Zoronos,davesaz,BlackStar,Something_Smart,HitAlt
replacementList=
moderatorNames=Almost50
dayStartNumbers=2,1415
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-06-21 14:30:00 -6.00
deadList=northsidegal-1,Something_Smart-1
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

[Mathdino]

Votecount 2.1

Not Voting (10): Mathdino(7), HeWhoSwims(2), pinturicchio(0), ofrhz(0), ruru(0), the worst(0), Zoronos(2), davesaz(0), BlackStar(5), HitAlt(0)

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2018-06-21 14:30:00)

MOD REMINDERS

pinturicchio needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 12:15:00 PM which was 2 days 1 hours 36 minutes 50 seconds ago.
ofrhz needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 1:12:00 PM which was 2 days 0 hours 39 minutes 50 seconds ago.
ruru needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 9:22:00 AM which was 2 days 4 hours 29 minutes 50 seconds ago.
the worst needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 9:32:00 AM which was 2 days 4 hours 19 minutes 50 seconds ago.
davesaz needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 1:04:00 PM which was 2 days 0 hours 47 minutes 50 seconds ago.
HitAlt needs a prod. The last post was at: 6/5/2018 12:15:00 PM which was 2 days 1 hours 36 minutes 50 seconds ago.

FLAVOR

This is an automated vote count generated by a tool written by MathBlade. It goes much smoother with exact votes but will try to detect bold votes and misspellings. If you have issues during this beta, please get MathBlade.

and accept it that soon you'll be drenched
to the bone
if your time to you is worth savin'

[Mathdino]

THEN YA BETTER START SWIMMIN OR YOU'LL SINK LIKE A STONE
FOR THE TIMES
THEY ARE A CHAAAAANGIN

WAGONS(Sort By: Alphabetical Data Type: Simple LSort: On)

Spoiler: Day 1

BlackStar (1)

~

jjh927

59

BlackStar (1)

~

ofrhz

352(573)

davesaz (1)

~

ruru

447

davesaz (1)

~

pinturicchio

876

davesaz (1)

~

Zoronos

1174

HeWhoSwims (1)

~

HitAlt

111

HeWhoSwims (1)

~

davesaz

868

jjh927 (1)

~

northsidegal

102

jjh927 (1)

~

Mathdino

530

Mathdino (1)

~

pinturicchio

34

northsidegal (1)

~

Mathdino

7

northsidegal (1)

~

ofrhz

8(235)

ofrhz (1)

~

ruru

43

ofrhz (1)

~

BlackStar

367(996)

pinturicchio (1)

~

northsidegal

37

pinturicchio (1)

~

HitAlt

107

pinturicchio (1)

~

jjh927

573

pinturicchio (1)

~

Mathdino

790

pinturicchio (1)

~

Zoronos

1264

ruru (1)

~

davesaz

528

Something_Smart (1)

~

ruru

649

Something_Smart (1)

~

Zoronos

1186

Something_Smart (1)

~

pinturicchio

1258(1264)

the worst (1)

~

Zoronos

3

the worst (1)

~

HitAlt

277

Zoronos (1)

~

davesaz

4

BlackStar (2)

~

jjh927, the worst

123

BlackStar (2)

~

jjh927, ofrhz

352(455)

HeWhoSwims (2)

~

davesaz, ofrhz

871

HeWhoSwims (2)

~

davesaz, BlackStar

1009(1209)

jjh927 (2)

~

Mathdino, ruru

541

jjh927 (2)

~

northsidegal, Mathdino

838

jjh927 (2)

~

northsidegal, the worst

862(930)

Mathdino (2)

~

pinturicchio, davesaz

446

northsidegal (2)

~

Mathdino, ofrhz

8

ofrhz (2)

~

ruru, Mathdino

235

ofrhz (2)

~

BlackStar, HeWhoSwims

719(862)

pinturicchio (2)

~

northsidegal, jjh927

41

Something_Smart (2)

~

Zoronos, pinturicchio

1258

the worst (2)

~

Zoronos, jjh927

11

the worst (2)

~

HitAlt, BlackStar

279

the worst (2)

~

HitAlt, jjh927

647

Zoronos (2)

~

davesaz, the worst

5

Zoronos (2)

~

davesaz, northsidegal

6(9)

Zoronos (2)

~

davesaz, BlackStar

57

BlackStar (3)

~

jjh927, the worst, ruru

218

BlackStar (3)

~

jjh927, the worst, ofrhz

352

HeWhoSwims (3)

~

davesaz, ofrhz, BlackStar

1009

jjh927 (3)

~

northsidegal, Mathdino, the worst

862

jjh927 (3)

~

northsidegal, the worst, pinturicchio

999

northsidegal (3)

~

Mathdino, ofrhz, the worst

9

ofrhz (3)

~

ruru, Mathdino, northsidegal

240

ofrhz (3)

~

Mathdino, northsidegal, BlackStar

367(447)

ofrhz (3)

~

northsidegal, BlackStar, the worst

455(530)

ofrhz (3)

~

BlackStar, the worst, HeWhoSwims

719(809)

the worst (3)

~

HitAlt, jjh927, ofrhz

764

the worst (3)

~

HitAlt, jjh927, Mathdino

930

Zoronos (3)

~

davesaz, the worst, northsidegal

6

Zoronos (3)

~

davesaz, northsidegal, jjh927

17

jjh927 (4)

~

northsidegal, the worst, pinturicchio, ruru

1018

jjh927 (4)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, BlackStar

1231(1281)

ofrhz (4)

~

ruru, Mathdino, northsidegal, BlackStar

367

ofrhz (4)

~

Mathdino, northsidegal, BlackStar, the worst

455

ofrhz (4)

~

northsidegal, BlackStar, the worst, HeWhoSwims

719

the worst (4)

~

HitAlt, jjh927, ofrhz, Mathdino

1281

jjh927 (5)

~

northsidegal, the worst, pinturicchio, ruru, Mathdino

1075

jjh927 (5)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, Mathdino, BlackStar

1231(1258)

jjh927 (5)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, HeWhoSwims

1325

jjh927 (6)

~

northsidegal, the worst, pinturicchio, ruru, Mathdino, BlackStar

1231

jjh927 (6)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, HeWhoSwims, ofrhz

1346

jjh927 (7)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, HeWhoSwims, ofrhz, Mathdino

1384

Spoiler: Day 2

click on the links to go to specific votes
plan is to run through every jjh vote
he was almost certainly bussed
scum could've pushed through TW if they wanted to but they didn't

[Mathdino]

I'd rather have a partner for VCA. I'll do the VCA but I need people to do some of the searching work for me.

Announce your hypoinno please.

The purity of the ofrhz wagon heavily implies scum were defending ofrhz for towncred. (or that ofrhz is scum I guess?)
jjh did exactly that. Mentioned ofrhz twice in his whole ISO.
So I could use an ISO dive on ofrhz and a search for people defending him.

[Mathdino]

jjh927 (6)

~

northsidegal, the worst, pinturicchio, ruru, Mathdino, BlackStar

1231

jjh927 (6)

~

northsidegal, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, HeWhoSwims, ofrhz

1346

Okay this is the most important part.

The first wagon is the one that got jjh to claim. The second one led to his lynch (I cast the hammer).

Notably:
- The most obvious busvote to me is pintu or TW. pintu is known to be a willing busser. TW busses when I'm around.
- ofrhz fills the spot of "lol let's pile onto my busted partner after he got cc'd"
- pintu on the other hand wasn't on the lynch wagon at all, haha. Possibly thought there'd be no cc?

VOTE: pintu
for now

[Mathdino]

NSG being killed heavily implicates the worst, who I was just about to come into the day defending.

Heavily is a strong word for nka on a pseudo-IC

Explain how TW is a pseudo IC? NSG was very clear that jjh/TW is a viable pair. Yesterday's gamestate is explained by a scum vs scum vote count.

As far as I can tell scum.you might benefit more from nsg being dead than scum.tw does (not because of her d1 reads which are guaranteed to get wifomed, but because of familiarity)

I mean.
You're not wrong.
I hate to use this as evidence but
Every single time I've been scum onsite and had the opportunity to nightkill a power role, I have. Every time.

I admit that HWS isn't the ideal shot since he's not actually doing anything as the jailkeeper.

So the only reason I'd have jjh claim jailkeeper is if I thought I knew who the cop or vig was, and thus didn't HAVE to out them. I play scum very mechanically. Which is helped by the fact that I can claim the title of the best current PR hunter onsite.

I would never have gone through all that to out a useless jailkeeper and then shoot a VT NSG anyway. So on that basis I feel like I should be confirmed town (or at least, knowing everything I know about myself, I'm objectively confirmed town). I accept if you think I'd WIFOM that up, but part of the reason I shoot PRs as scum (rather than WIFOMing) is specifically so I'm allowed to make this argument as town when VTs get killed.

And I'm sure as hell not sacrificing that reputation for a random open game that scum will probably lose anyway.

I feel jjh not flipping rolecop also makes bussing somewhat less likely than otherwise

Yeah you might be right. Framer is the best scum role here IMO.
In the case of scum not-bussing, HitAlt is the clearest suspect I think.

Did either of them crumb

Please tell me yall crumbed

Also okay so I'm kinda curious what this was about

Would you seriously have considered lynching hws if jjh crumbed and hws didn't?

Yes. I have a long history of scumreading PRs and I would have accepted "jjh is actually a PR" as a reason why my scumdar was wrong there.

But yeah HWS was very clearly jailkeeper from "WHAT SHOULD THE JK DO GUYS". And jjh is known to be capable of complex crumbing. So he probably made that shit up on the spot.

[Mathdino]

The post-claim wagon is useless, imo, since it heavily reflects who was present in the thread and not who was scum reading JJH.
No cred for being on a train driven entirely be counter-claiming-HWS.

I am more suspicious of the people that said 'I don't trust that claim' when JJH claimed JK than the people that piled back on after HWS countered. Town players have no specific reason to distrust the claim, whereas scum already know it's BS and are expecting the counter.

Hey I did that

Preemptive defence: I did that after almost the entire thread had un-cc'd. And I didn't really think jjh was acting like a PR.
I've actually correctly disbelieved a LOT of scum fakeclaims. Ask the duck

Pin's kinda scummy to me except all the way back here there was this

Yeah too late ofrhz I already figured it out, still think there's no relation between a bad vote and me being scum but sure you do you

VOTE: jjh this is a better vote for you

When we were scum together he tried really hard to not actually bus me, even though it looked like he was willing to lynch me and this feels way different from that (especially if ofrhz isn't scum, I guess this doesn't apply if ofrhz flips red though)

Are you calling him a willing busser based on games other than 1859?

Good to know. Yeah, check his threads for Tit for Tat. He was scum with Aneninen and mutantdevle. Bus-happy team.
I'm guessing he'd be more willing to bus in a 3-person mini team than a 2-person newbie team.

[Mathdino]

In this particular case, bullshit is where I am accusing you of being completely and verifiably inccorrect rather thanjust giving a bad answer.

You absolutely did make an effort to place me when I replaced in in noir. You are now attempting to write it off

No, jjh, i didn't make an effort to sort you in that game. I asked you which song would you like, you asked me if I was already townreading you and I said no, that I asked for it if I ever thought you were townie enough to be in my townbloc, but that you were in good track. That's all I said about you before you counterclaimed tracker. So not only your answer to me was innecesarily agressive, you also made me lose my time and go read another game to realize you were the one lying. Don't make me lose my time again with unjustified bullshit

This warrants an unvote, I'm open to people convincing me otherwise.

UNVOTE:

I don't like pintu's trajectory on jjh. Super fencesitty and halfassed. But 1120 was a solid post. And jjh aggressively accusing pintu of not even trying to sort him would be really weird if they were bussing.

I miss NSG.

WWNSGD

[Mathdino]

not sure.

eh, i guess there's not all that much left that i feel i have to say. i don't expect town to turn around and lynch one of my strong townreads if i die so i think we'll be fine.

NSG, heavily consider actually listing your strong townreads if you're gonna say something like this and expect to be sheeped

[Mathdino]

davesaz

ISO dave and jjh for each other.

[Mathdino]

...
VOTE: davesaz

m'bad

[Mathdino]

@TW: yeah i've never seen a member of eddie cane's clique fake a meta-townread on their scumpartner in order to shy people away from that lynch

[Mathdino]

jjh. jjh is.

that's a thing people do.

i no longer believe any meta-based reads from flipped scum.

Edit: IGNORE THE META

I'm not metaing anyone right now. The point is that jjh claimed dave was likely town by meta. This was bullshit.

[Mathdino]

I think in practice that happens because people are bad at it, pintu. People on MS don't sell their hypo-innos well enough. When they do, that's really just a good argument for diversifying the hypo-claim pool.

An issue without hypoclaiming is honestly, cops with innos are super obvious if you know what to look for. So if it's between having a pool of maybe 4 possible cops vs one super obvious cop without any cover, I prefer teaching hypoclaiming.

You can feel free to do the "subtle indication of who my inno is" if you're the cop though.

Any thoughts re: reads?

[Mathdino]

If NSG were here, she'd say "bad vote" and probably take townpoints away.

Upon review, NSG's only 2 strong townreads were BlackStar and ruru. We're not lynching either of them. In NSG's honour!!!

[Mathdino]

That's the towniest post pintu's made all game actually.

Inno: BlackStar, HWS
Town: Zor, ruru
Probtown: pintu

erryone else: HitAlt, ofrhz, the worst

Probscum: davesaz

the neverbus team is dave/HitAlt
i want dave's flip

[Mathdino]

BlackStar
HWS
Zoronos
ruru
pintu
the worst
ofrhz
HitAlt
davesaz

this is where i stand i think

[Mathdino]

I didn't say it was pro-town. It's probably anti-town, but that doesn't matter. It's just town-indicative. That kind of thing is outside pintu's scumrange.

Thoughts on reads list?

I want:

davesaz-scum --> HitAlt --> ofrhz --> the worst

davesaz-town --> ofrhz --> HitAlt --> the worst

vig the bottom section, copclear {worst, pintu, ruru} and we're good to go

Edit: @pintu: I'm unimpressed by their associatives, and my reasons for townreading him yesterday don't matter as much as flips do.

[Mathdino]

I have unconventional but often correct reasons for townreading people

I prefer to keep my towntells diverse from the site's standard set of towntells. Means people have to really get to know me to figure out how to force a townread from me.

[Mathdino]

If pintu actually gets close to being lynched, I'll tell you. I don't see it as pro-town to talk about that. People will either sheep my townreads or they won't.

And if he gets run up despite me calling him town, they're probably not gonna listen to my one-post reason anyway (I just lost a game because people mislynched my unconventional townreads smh)

re: copclearing me: I still think I'm confirmed town by "why would Mathdino sacrifice his PR hunting meta just to shoot a VT NSG". But I would understand being copcleared, sure.

[Mathdino]

Zoronos, what I said is that I agree with you; I too think my post was NAI and felt that Dino's townlean on me because of that post was weird. I disagreed with your "while looking like he did work" 'cause that's an opinion, and you gave two facts together with that opinion. Blending in an opinion with two facts to make it look like a fact is a no no for me, so I commented it, that's all.

What players think is NAI for themselves is often not actually NAI for themselves.

[Mathdino]

So you're doing it because you want to read me and my reasoning?

That's not going to help you much unless you familiarize yourself with my town thought process vs scum lazy townreads
I'm not sure you're willing to do that

[Mathdino]

Gotcha.

I'll answer if TW needs an alignment check on me
I don't trust anyone else to read me based off my off the cuff townreads
I think the difference between my townreads as scum vs town is too subtle tbh

Instead try reading motivation
Why does scum me choose to townread pintu in that situation?
What's town mes trajectory on his slot?

[Mathdino]

HOLY SHIT GUYS ALMOST50 IS ACTUALLY 50 WTF

MOST HYPED BIRTHDAY ON MS

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

[Mathdino]

Associations and PoE
Bad voting record imo

My ability to meta him is actually based off tone and is fairly effort intensive
He thinks I can automatically do that because I didn't show all my work last time I did it

To produce a solid meta read I'm gonna need time

[Mathdino]

I'll answer if TW needs an alignment check on me

I don't want one no--happy to explain why not if needed

Is this a coded way to say you townread me

[Mathdino]

We were comodding a game
It was my responsibility to end it and post the PTs and stuff
That had nothing to do with this game basically, we just happen to not be in other threads together

[Mathdino]

The lack of votes on davesaz makes me feel good about this wagon

[Mathdino]

Me?

I haven't sat down and done that yet, no

Is that the burden I'm under in order to canvas votes

[Mathdino]

OK but here's the issue guys

You're not giving me an alternative to argue with

You're asking me to put in more work when I'm already the only one doing work to actually push scumreads

I might case dave, might not
Most cases are bullshit anyway
I literally caught jjh by a shoddy meta reason alone

[Mathdino]

I don't believe ofrhz has stretched that far as she usually tends to when she's scum
Thus town until proven otherwise
Her posts seem reasonable and non agenda driven

[Mathdino]

Basically I've already done a metadive on ofrhz (and jjh) this game while I haven't found time to for dave

Hitalt and TW both strike me as townier by tone and higher utility/higher risk if mislynched

[Mathdino]

Call it a really bad soulread

He's a tough read and I'm not confident in my ability to read him post by post

I don't think he's definitively not scum
He's just townier than dave

[Mathdino]

If you'd like, I can paraphrase the chats that led me to my profile on jjhs meta
It's honestly mainly "obvtown as town", we talked about it after I modded him and he died

So if you're building a profile on scum me, keep in mind I knew about his sortability prior to gamestart

[Mathdino]

Sigh I get ignored every time I use the "a vt got killed last night" argument

I can also copy paste that argument

I've still never NOT killed a power role
I once replaced into a scumslot, shot an unclaimed doctor (when A50 was a claimed doctor), and replaced out the next day

I'm on record in scum PTs for trying super hard to PR hunt
So whenever I'm town and scum shoots a vt, I can claim town

PR hunting is my best skill as scum so I'm basically playing as well as I can as scum so when scum plays poorly I can get reverse BoPd as not scum

[Mathdino]

Are you saying he would always be designated bus with you

Like, framer dying d1 vs d2 is pretty significant even if the player is readable

I'm not sure I buy into framer being designated bus in general

I agree, it's a tradeoff

Id like to think that scum me would've already known HWS was jailkeeper and would've instructed him to claim cop

He'd definitely be the weak link by scum skill if teamed with me

[Mathdino]

NSG is not worth more than a cop in my opinion
I respect her but not THAT much
I'm starting to build a profile of when her reads are thrown off and why

[Mathdino]

No I'm literally 100% on shooting a power role every night I've been alive
I also called power roles after my death but scumpartners are dumb

[Mathdino]

I don't call myself the greatest pr hunter for nothing xD

I still have a draft for a PR tells article for the mafia discussion
May publish it at some point, idk, got disillusioned with the MD

[Mathdino]

See this scum pt for my most lolworthy game

Shot the doctor for the "WHAT SHOULD THE DOCTOR DO" tell
The same tell hws dropped this game
Then faked a guilty on the cop preemptively

[Mathdino]

Sweet

Help me fine tune my lynch line though? I'm not really even 60% sure on Dave tbh

[Mathdino]

I also hate self meta
This is a borderline case though in which I play as well as possible as scum specifically for situations like this where scum plays like shit

[Mathdino]

I don't know what evidence Dave has to argue that I can just soulread people without research other than NSG

[Mathdino]

That vote was the most team mafia 2018 davesaz post I've ever seen
The problem is he's saying that shit literally while asking me to meta him based off that same game

My meta is always done on people before I announce that I'm gonna meta them

[Mathdino]

okay yeah lol at how bad people are at hypoclaiming

[Mathdino]

inclination is to unvote davesaz but i don't want to lock into an unvote just yet

i still don't understand why davesaz seems to think i'm a godly davesaz hipfire reader

i mislynched him once (also off terrible associations) and only locktowned him in another game after a full metadive (he dropped a very particular towntell)

he's aware he's commonly scumread as town

hitalt wagon is good though

[Mathdino]

OK guys suppose I maybe townread davesaz

What should I be doing with my vote

[Mathdino]

OK Dave can be town
Praise be unto gals from north sides
I hereby sheep
VOTE: HitAlt

Lynch TW if he makes it to lylo please

[Mathdino]

Again, call it a really bad soulread
I have these mental pictures of how my friends would play as scum and he just hasn't really done that
It's not definite but realistically you're better off just seeing if he makes it to lylo and deciding then

[Mathdino]

Hard towntell, there's a chance he's aware of what it is though
I need to refresh myself on what he's capable of faking

Unwilling to lynch today, I'd rather he get copped

[Mathdino]

Lynching from the bottom up off her reads list
She ended up townreading ofrhz and I'm deferring to myself on TW
The next in line is Hitalt

[Mathdino]

Better than average reads, she tends to have scum in the second lowest tier of her list
She rarely gets totally snowed

Hitalt stonewalled the jjh lynch yesterday

[Mathdino]

How many times do I have to reiterate that read lol
He's too self aware
The more I talk about how I personally read him, the better and better he gets at not getting scumread

It's a lot of small things tbh
I think he should be autolynched in lylo
Or at least he should be the first to vote

[Mathdino]

That was a bad argument because they always made sense as scum together

[Mathdino]

He was explicitly PR-reading jjh though before the claim

jjh wasn't really projecting PR to me so I'm kinda curious where the read came from

quote this? i didn't catch that, this might be clearing

[Mathdino]

yeah that's too little too late

reads potential TMI to me

[Mathdino]

that explains so much about that shitty jailkeeper claim

[Mathdino]

to be fair guys, i'm on record for asking scumpartners to plan out their claims beforehand

check my scum PTs
ctrl+F "topics" in my egosearch

i'm a big fan of claiming optimally

[Mathdino]

okay, at best you've just become anti-town though

if you think TW is guaranteed scum/PR,

maybe tunneling him for 2 days straight is not the correct play

my case on hitalt is that i have the fewest reasons to townread him

a couple of you place too much burden of proof/evidence when that's just not how the game works

shit results in votes being wasted and difficulty in even getting enough votes for a lynch

today's lynchpool is {dave, HitAlt, ofrhz} and there won't be enough support for anyone else, so please figure out where your head is at re: these 3

[Mathdino]

My hypoclaim was also bad. I think MathDino might actually be scum here.

and bullshit like this is essentially why we have to lynch either davesaz or hitalt

they're never getting NK'd and they don't seem to understand that TW and i are the ideal NKs right now (besides zoronos)

[Mathdino]

i love this song and dance
happens every day 2

1. Mathdino powerwagons Person A with first post off gut
2. Person A votes/scumreads Mathdino
3. Mathdino rereads, powerwagons Person B off logic
4. Person B votes/scumreads Mathdino
5. Mathdino settles on Person C as final lynch
6. Person C votes/scumreads Mathdino
7. Meanwhile pretty much everyone else null/townreads Mathdino

every time, man
every time.
it's actually exceedingly rare that someone DOESN'T go through this song and dance with me
(i.e. decides "hey mathdino is probably wrong about me")
and when they don't, those are usually the townies

i'm not saying i'm some kind of victim, but i am saying that 0/3 people i pushed today responded coolly and detachedly
scumreads here are either irrational or scum

it's not obvious to me at all that the hitalt wagon has scum on it.
hell, wagoning him is

anti-scum

right now because he's effectively claimed VT with his hypoclaim fuckup and the obviousness of who he would've vigshot last night
scum would rather out PRs or get more claims i think
or, yknow, push someone who isn't going to deathtunnel you to his deathbed

so this idea that "oh there must be scum on my wagon" is again either irrational or fake

i'm satisfied with this as the final lynch

[Mathdino]

first of all, why are you claiming not cop

second of all, i have an inno on blackstar, and that's legit

third, even if you don't believe i'm the cop, blackstar was next to you as NSG's top townread, and NSG specifically requested that we not turn around and start lynching her top townreads

[Mathdino]

:kappa:

help me do the math on this lynch

HitAlt (3): ruru, the worst, Mathdino,
Mathdino (2): davesaz,
the worst (1): BlackStar,
pinturicchio (1): ofrhz,

Not Voting: HeWhoSwims, HitAlt, Zoronos, pinturicchio

can you convince ofrhz and pintu to get on hitalt pls

[Mathdino]

So your "soulread" on davesaz has changed now? Because yesterday it seemed like you were fine with keeping him alive

my "soulread" was always on TW, not davesaz

context clues, my man

[Mathdino]

idk i guess the AtE is working

i did a refresher on his scum meta to check for capabilities

not super impressed

[Mathdino]

He's never played with me as scum
Very few people have

[Mathdino]

fucking lol

can't get me on this one

"a PR didn't die last night and i'm not shit at NKs" is not a trust tell, it's burden of proficiency

@Zor

: realistically, you're not likely to get your pretty case with a bow that you seem to want from me on every read
i'm as active as i am and i've spent more time this game reading than writing, am unlikely to have much time for writing this week

you don't have the right to shit on how i choose to express my reads when you're literally not voting/pushing anyone

there are 5 people not voting right now and this is an unacceptable gamestate
i'm not here to solve the game for you
there's been significantly more asked of me this game than any other player

you've actively shut out some of my best arguments as well so i'm not really inclined to bend over backwards to fit your style. i can lynch my lynchpool without you in particular

play the game please, don't act like "oh this game is easy if we could just sort math but

he's just not giving me enough to do so

"

[Mathdino]

tl;dr i openly prefer town and try to replace into townslots on my main
because why would i voluntarily play scum when i have the sorting ability to avoid it

so i replaced into ruru's scumgame in the newbie queue and was like "yo i'm town literally by virtue of being here"

ruru was displeased so she NK'd me and there was some behind the scenes drama

ruru is saying i'm essentially pulling a similar argument here

1. I have a 100% record of perfectly shooting PRs whenever I'm scum (this extends back to pre-hiatus). I don't believe in shooting VTs
2. Scum didn't out the cop when outing the cop is clearly optimal
3. A VT died last night. A VT playing her VT meta, no less.

Therefore I'm either town or throwing away my ability to use this argument specifically to use the WIFOM against you this game.

[Mathdino]

oh yeah i forgot to say

given some time and space from the comments that initially made me think pintu is town, i no longer believe that it's super unlikely for scum-pintu to have faked this performance

that said, i think he should be lynched after another red flip, not today

open to compelling arguments otherwise, i'm just not feelin' it

[Mathdino]

your collective VCA is questionable

keep in mind that TW was a wagon specifically backed and pushed by me, and i could easily have signed NSG onto it if we needed it for the day to end

jjh went for the higher fruit, ofrhz was too easy/obvious a mislynch
recall that jjh chose to defend ofrhz from us evil people who scumread him

jjh was using ofrhz as the classic "guy i hard-defend for towncred, and who i can chainsaw defend to fabricate scumreads"

lynching town-TW D1 would've been a huge win for scum

[Mathdino]

It's hard to white knight someone who's universally townread my man

[Mathdino]

jjh wasn't buddying me at all

he just knew that if he tried to omgus me by being like "town Mathdino would never scumread me here" i'd have dropped napalm on him

he responded the only correct way, with a "i get why math is scumreading me, he's town but i wish he could see deeper"
his downfall was when he told NSG she was playing like shit for scumreading him

re: dave: dude his points on dave have like 0 substance. it's just waffly waffleness. also no buddying there, it's just avoiding having to take an actual stance

[Mathdino]

is there anyone that wants to lynch ofrhz right now...
i don't have an inno on him but i agree ofrhz is highly likely town

ruru's take on dave is apt and i'm going to pretend that's why i started townreading him by meta
(in fact if ruru could just be my spokesperson this game that would be pretty solid)

today is HitAlt vs pintu i think?

[Mathdino]

I ʇɥonƃɥʇ ᴉʇ ʍɐs Hᴉʇ∀lʇ qnʇ I ɐlso ʍɐuʇ ɥᴉɯ ʇo ʇǝll ns˙

Fixed, read this upside-down

[Mathdino]

OK I've been thinking
We're gonna mass claim tomorrow no matter what because it's the day before lylo, Vig shouldn't shoot a 3rd time, and so really all the hypoclaiming is to protect the 2nd cop result

A large part of reading TWs alignment is figuring out wtf his game strategy has been
And yall not gonna stop tunneling him so idk if a lynch is possible

TW I think you should fullclaim and explain your play this game
I'm willing to vote you to force that

[Mathdino]

I'm bored with the gamestate so I'd prefer right now
If you see a strategic reason to wait irl time lemme know

But it should happen this game day
I'm afraid town acts suboptimally otherwise

[Mathdino]

Yeah but I'm not gonna beat around the bush
It needs to come from you
And it highkey didnt work so

[Mathdino]

Not going to best around the bush here, this plan seems actively stupid and makes me want to lynch Math.

Fucking hell every aspect of my playstyle seems to make you want to lynch me more
Please stop blaming me for your reads

I need to make sure we get a lynch through on someone today

AND YOU'RE STILL NOT FUCKING VOTING ANYONE

WHY DO YOU THINK I WANT TO MOVE THE GAME FORWARD

[Mathdino]

You indecisive wafflers wonder why I'm tryna shake the game up
Put a goddamn vote out there and stop burdening me with 100% gamesolving after I just fucking lynched scum yesterday

[Mathdino]

I really don't know how I can express to you that I'm not confident enough in my reads to case all over the place for you
And the only way I can gain confidence is by people playing the game
Voting, pressuring, claiming, planning, giving reads lists

I'm not going to fabricate 5 cases because you want to see me dance

I just want a lynch that's not on a PR and isn't on obvtown
Apparently that's too much to ask

[Mathdino]

Can we avoid stupid o' clock by just lynching the vt claim because I don't see how tw claiming here is beneficial

The above post is directed at Zor

We don't have the votes to lynch Hitalt right now because NO ONE IS VOTING

I would like more discussion on pintu vs Hitalt but again NO ONE IS VOTING

I'm actually scumreading pintu more than Hitalt as of now
But Hitalt incessantly tunneling TW/me makes me feel less bad about potentially mislynching him

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

[Mathdino]

I know I'm a hypocrite but I want to finish this discussion with Zor before a quickhammer
VOTE: pintu
Leaving this here
I believe pintu figured out that I was townreading him for being shit
And super played that up afterward when he noticed that
Rurus analysis of his scumgame is pretty damning

[Mathdino]

I think pin's pretty likely to be to scum here half based on general behavior and half based on that one post

I also think he's in general a better player than his posting suggests and I know he acts like badtown as scum because people read it as him just being tinfoily

Specifically this is when I started hardscumreading pintu

I was townreading him for seriously thinking SS was the scum nk

But right after I did and people were like "Yo that's stupid"
He proceeded to waste an entire wall on that theory
As if I'd townread him even harder for it

Erryone thirsty for that Mathdino defence

[Mathdino]

The current primary question is why the fuck pintu scum would leave me alive
His towniest post is currently the one where he was like "yeah leaving Mathdino alive when he had bad reads was a mistake"