Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)


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Post Post #3 (isolation #0) » Wed May 23, 2018 9:44 am

Post by Zoronos »

First!
Time to make the worst vote of the game:
VOTE: The Worst
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Post Post #12 (isolation #1) » Wed May 23, 2018 10:38 am

Post by Zoronos »

I’ve been chuckling to myself about that joke all afternoon.
I’m lame, I know.

Evil-duck: Are you joke voting the worst (as I am / was) or serious voting him?
Because I have a thought and am curious about your thought.
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Post Post #15 (isolation #2) » Wed May 23, 2018 11:06 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 14, jjh927 wrote:Would I ever do a joke vote?
I have no idea. Have an answer for my question?
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Post Post #22 (isolation #3) » Wed May 23, 2018 11:15 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 13, the worst wrote:ALL HAIL
PRESIDENT
GOD EMPEROR JJH

what's on your mind zoronos? if you can end RVS effectively on page 1 I might have to marry you post-game
evil-duck was an attempt to refer to JJH, in case it was unclear. Because his avatar made me laugh.

To contextualize my question - the_worst claimed scum in . I feel that moves the indicator (ever so slightly) on his probability of being scum. Ergo, I was curious if JJH was serious voting based on that input, or just making an RVS-vote, since his vote came after that post.

Either a) the_worst is making a joke about being scum out of self-reflective guilt, b) he believes his towniness is obvious (illusion of transparency) and so is happy to kid around about being scum or c) offsetting probabilities, insufficient data to move needle. So, if his vote was serious (and frankly, I think it should have been when there's input to be had!), he should either be concluding (a) or if his vote was RVS he should be concluding (c).

As noted, I have an opinion. I think self-conscious-guilty-scum-in-RVS will tend to vote partners more often than they will vote / directly incriminate themselves. Ergo, I lean ever-so-slightly to (b) in the aggregate. So, UNVOTE: . In a sea of ???, the first town point goes to the_worst.
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Post Post #23 (isolation #4) » Wed May 23, 2018 11:15 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 19, the worst wrote:
In post 13, the worst wrote:ALL HAIL
PRESIDENT
GOD EMPEROR JJH

what's on your mind zoronos? if you can end RVS effectively on page 1 I might have to marry you post-game
zoro this was not a joke post
I know. I just had to walk back to my desk to type up my thoughts, because ugh tags from phone is awful.
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Post Post #28 (isolation #5) » Wed May 23, 2018 11:33 am

Post by Zoronos »

Oh, I screwed up the damn tag.
UNVOTE:
I'm bad at this.

Nobody has struck me as overtly scummy yet but uhhhh I suck at RVS so the sooner it ends the happier I am.
jjh927 wrote:Ftr I am not a big fan of people asking about whether or not a vote is serious in RVS. I think the faster we break away from RVS, the better, and to do that generally involves making a mountain out of a molehill and then stripmining that mountain for its precious content
Well, hand me my mining pick and helmet.
(caution, we're going into the intent-mines, where nothing good can result but if you want to follow me down the rabbit hole keep reading)

Getting a probabilistic read on whether or not a joke is self conscious is the thinnest of possible reads, but that's what makes the question valuable.

So, RVS this game was pretty concentrated - three votes on me, then three votes on NSG, then this new train of discussion.
I haven't played a lot on this site in the past few years, but that seems out of the ordinary from what I remember. Think there's meaning there, or just townies joking around?
(I don't have a answer to this question, but I'm curious about other's thoughts and it's better than yet-more-RVS)

So, to pre-flip analyze (which is totally fun and we should all definitely engage in), I don't think there's much meaning to MathDino's RVS because based on his signup post he's friends with NSG, so it's equally likely that's a scum-guilty-conscience vote on NSG as it is a town-joke (friends will look for reasons to engage eachother early, imo).
ofrhz on the other hand I'm curious about. He's probably not scum with MathDino because that's a really early +1vote. The worst's votes both (on me, then NSG) seem like jokes. After all, I started by joking about him, turnabout is fair play.
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Post Post #44 (isolation #6) » Wed May 23, 2018 12:12 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 37, northsidegal wrote:VOTE: pinturicchio
Think that’s an attempt to drag us back to RVS in lieu of serious discussion / weighing in on thread topics, or just stale RVS?

Your vote cleart implies the former so maybe my question is self answering, ergo this is probably just a log of thoughts and observations.
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Post Post #47 (isolation #7) » Wed May 23, 2018 12:32 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Acknowledged.

I shall continue journaling to myself.

Dear dairy,

Today ruru and pintu RVS’ed after there was content to read. I’m curious if they did so on purpose.
Pintu’s vote response may have been knowledge of guilty intent but that’s a thin read.
I wonder why ruru chose ofrhz, maybe because he sheeped a wagon in RVS instead of starting a new one, so I’m mistaking a serious but naked vote for an RVS vote.

Your pal,
Zor
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Post Post #68 (isolation #8) » Wed May 23, 2018 1:47 pm

Post by Zoronos »

BlackStar - let’s chat. Is there an opinion of mine you disagree with or that is confusing which I can clarify for you?
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Post Post #72 (isolation #9) » Wed May 23, 2018 2:05 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Well, if anything sticks out at you, let’s talk about it.
All I can ask is that you keep an open mind and work with me going forward.

I’m not sure I’m as sold as SS seems to be on the towny-ness of ruru but I’m hard pressed to disagree with the underlying direction. I have a hard time selling myself on the notion scum-ruru would so blatantly pine for the ability to post contentlessly. Scum in that position would probably try to fake content rather than brazening out the active lurk. I think my read on the town-degree implied therein is less than what SS believes, but it seems like a legit read.

Pedit - I’ve never been scum on this site. on my phone so I can’t dive into old games to check if I’ve ever been fast wagoned. Sorry for the unhelpful answer.
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Post Post #73 (isolation #10) » Wed May 23, 2018 2:11 pm

Post by Zoronos »

To clarify prior: I think SS’s read is good and I agree with it. I just disagree with the strength of the read he seems to imply, but I believe that to be a difference of opinion on the evidence, not a difference in the validity of the evidence.
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Post Post #78 (isolation #11) » Wed May 23, 2018 2:25 pm

Post by Zoronos »

This is my second game since 2016 or so, but the prior game I played NSG was in, as was SS. I presume she did the meta check during that game.
I played like crap during that game; I spent most of it wrong and stubborn, so if NSG seems short or frustrated with me (see her post earlier that I should step back from the thread), I’d advise taking it as NAI rather than a discredit attempt. It’s a reasonable town emotional response to how much of a pain I was in that game.
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Post Post #142 (isolation #12) » Wed May 23, 2018 9:26 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 137, HitAlt wrote:This gives me scummy vibes.Might be the RvS-mood affecting Dino here, but the tone is off.
Were I to make a case against Dino (and note that this case holds similarly against pinturicchio, if you'd notice), it would be thus:
Other than his 'I'm not ready to give a read yet' post on NSG, so far his posts have been exclusively about setup / PR utilization. He has not yet produced a read, and PR-utilization-talk is a good way to accomplish an active lurk while appearing to contribute.
However, I think we're too early in the game to prosecute that case, but it earns one eyebrow-raise for both him and pinturicchio.
Further, I don't think I agree about the tone note here. While it's self-aware, it's not self-aware in a scummy fashion, imo. I believe 95 (which you quoted) from MD is NAI. The post was relatively early and I can understand where he's coming from vis-a-vis observer effect affecting his reads.

I will contrast ruru here, since while she discussed (and started) the PR-discussion, she also produced reads alongside them even if I'm not sure I agree with those reads (also note my earlier commentary on her, which feeds into this contrasting position).
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Post Post #143 (isolation #13) » Wed May 23, 2018 9:27 pm

Post by Zoronos »

tl;dr if I were voting one of those people, I'd vote pinturicchio over MD from current weight of evidence.

Pinturicchio - let's talk about scum. What are your current thoughts on who is scum?
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Post Post #144 (isolation #14) » Wed May 23, 2018 9:28 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 138, the worst wrote:reeks of lurkscum opportunism tbh
I'm not sure I'm following - can you contextualize this?
I think it's a response to HitAlt but I'm not sure I understand the post in that context, so I'm left kinda head-scratch who / what you're referring to and I'd like to understand.
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Post Post #147 (isolation #15) » Wed May 23, 2018 9:57 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 145, the worst wrote: This was a shitpost sorry
Ah, no worries.

I was trying to figure out how you were arriving at a lurkscum case on the guy you were just talking to and failing. Which left me wondering if you were referring to the MD post, and then scratching at how a not-ready-to-read was opportunism.

What do you think of MD and Pintu so far?
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Post Post #168 (isolation #16) » Thu May 24, 2018 4:53 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 148, the worst wrote:math is the setup spec king.
pintu is a slow burn kinda player.

have no strong feelings on either of them yet. I don't mind your take on their setup spec emphasis but they're both gonna be more sortable later in the phase
Noted.
I’m perennially suspicious of PR-discussion-time. But we’re still early so I’m willing to wait before leaning heavily into that.
In the mean time I’m going to try and elicit some reads.
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Post Post #169 (isolation #17) » Thu May 24, 2018 4:56 am

Post by Zoronos »

That SS post made me laugh way more than it should have.
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Post Post #171 (isolation #18) » Thu May 24, 2018 6:28 am

Post by Zoronos »

I am inclined to agree with your ruru-town-lean-read, for reasons I talked about prior.
Talk to me about that NSG read. I feel like my read so far on that slot is low fidelity, so I'm curious what you're seeing / why you're coming to that conclusion.

(I am certainly a try hard. I suck at RVS so the sooner I can murder it the happier I am)
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Post Post #176 (isolation #19) » Thu May 24, 2018 9:32 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 173, BlackStar wrote:The Worst, do you have any reads right now?
In post 123, the worst wrote:@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar
Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of ?
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?
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Post Post #178 (isolation #20) » Thu May 24, 2018 9:40 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 172, pinturicchio wrote:Her case on jjh is on point, making such a strong scumread this early is something I don't expect coming from scum
So, her case, as I understand it, is currently predicated on the notion that JJH is white-knighting me.

The last we heard from ofrhz was this:
In post 60, ofrhz wrote:
In post 57, BlackStar wrote:Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos
why zoronos?
Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?
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Post Post #183 (isolation #21) » Thu May 24, 2018 10:33 am

Post by Zoronos »

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts
Her case had basically four points spread between and

I had trouble following / agreeing with her . She calls out JJH's (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in . I specifically commented on her vote in with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in . If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.


So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?
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Post Post #191 (isolation #22) » Thu May 24, 2018 11:05 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 188, pinturicchio wrote: Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.
Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.

So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.

This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.

However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.
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Post Post #193 (isolation #23) » Thu May 24, 2018 11:12 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 185, northsidegal wrote:zoronos, tell me about your read on pintu. just talk about it, any thoughts you have, anything you've been doing to sort him, etc.
As noted (), I was a bit suspicious when he dove directly into PR-discussion-time after ruru opened the floor on that topic, since he hadn't given any alignment sorting reads. So, I started at lean-scum.
I figured I'd throw him some rope () and see what he did with it.

He didn't come back with any scum reads in , but given what HitAlt and the_worst said about his meta in 148-149, I figured it was unlikely both were lying to me, so I wanted to given him a little benefit of the doubt and talk through what I thought was the more controversial of his two positions. The ruru town read I felt was a bit safer / less controversial than the NSG town read. I agreed with it, as I had noted earlier in the thread, so talking about it would play both into bias from agreement and give him the opportunity to just parrot back my own thoughts if he was scum, making that discussion less productive regardless of his alignment.

Ergo, the follow up on his assessment of your case, IMO, is the more productive line here.
His suggests that he is town reading because he felt you were putting yourself far out ahead of the crowd ("such a strong scum read this early"), and that act of proactive sorting / controversial sorting made you town.
The obvious compare / contrast there was ofrhz's response to blackstar, imo. Scum-Pintu would be more likely to have ignored what (at least to my read) was a loaded question from ofrhz since he didn't really care about your underlying evidence (the white knight argument), whereas town-Pintu would have also looked at ofrhz's response to BlackStar and said "Ah ha! More of what NSG saw in JJH!", imo.

His response suggests he disagrees with my underlying assessment; that ofrhz's question was loaded / had intent, and he redirects to a different part of the case than what I thought was most salient. So, I want to keep exploring this line of questioning.
He's seeing the evidence quite differently than I am, and is focusing on completely different parts of your case than the one I agree with. That's a bit perplexing to me, so I'm trying to narrow down where the inconsistencies are sprouting from.
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Post Post #197 (isolation #24) » Thu May 24, 2018 11:23 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 190, ruru wrote:
Do you think it's inaccurate that you were trying harder because of the votes on you?
I wasn't trying harder because of the votes on me.
I am definitely trying harder than normal.
There is a reason for that but I'm embarrassed to type it.

Spoiler: nobody but ruru read this
My last game on the site was with SS, NSG, and the_worst and I played absolutely atrociously. I feel bad about it. I want to not be atrocious again.
I played a game with MathDino a few years ago, and I tried to defend him from a bad case, but I was in the end atrocious in that game as well.

The_worst sent me a PM post game and suggested I play an open, so here I am. I don't want to let people down again.


Also I feel my tone read on the_worst's scum claim joke was a legit place to start so I figured why not start there and go.
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Post Post #215 (isolation #25) » Thu May 24, 2018 11:45 am

Post by Zoronos »

(Sorry, gotta run shortly but don't want to thread abandon in the middle of questions)
In post 195, northsidegal wrote:
In post 178, Zoronos wrote:Do you feel that falls into the same play pattern that jjh is being accused of, or is his question different? That is, do you feel ofrhz was asking a loaded question, or a non-loaded question?
asking "why zoronos" is leagues different from what jjh did. it's an attempt to understand, not an attempt to defend you while attacking blackstar. i'm really not sure how you look at them as being comparable.
I felt the question from ofrhz was heavily loaded. 'Why zoronos, defend your read?!?!', in essence. When he's let a variety of other naked votes pass by, he chooses that one to seek clarification. That he chooses to do so suggests, to me, there's meaning behind the specific action he's taking. From the seat of the person being asked about, both his question and JJH's defense feel deserving of similar attention. Ergo, I think people should be considering both if they're considering one. And if Pintu likes your case on JJH, I'd expect him to also be thinking about an ofrhz case. That he isn't does not give me warm fuzzy feelings.
In post 196, northsidegal wrote: 41 is essentially RVS because jjh had no apparent serious reasoning for voting pintu and, as he has now confirmed, no non-stated reason for voting him. my vote was naked, but it wasn't RVS.

what i don't understand is his behavior after that.

i thought the scumminess of bringing up a talking point that might be taken as a scumtell for me but without actually having any sort of thoughts about it was obvious.
As I kinda-self-answering-questioned at the time, I thought there might be a reason for your naked vote on Pintu, and figured that it was likely JJH was doing the same. Now, belies that, so maybe I was putting people onto motivations that weren't in fact correct. I'll dig into that a bit when I get back. I'm more interested in seeing how Pintu is making his conclusions on the evidence, per se, since that's what will help me sort out Pintu.

I took the note on your wagon as NAI, since I can see a town player doing a chin scratch note-to-self style post there. (After all, I believe ruru is town and she's asking me about my reactions to the wagon on me, so I can see a town motivation for questioning).
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Post Post #249 (isolation #26) » Thu May 24, 2018 1:03 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 223, BlackStar wrote:He said that he felt ofrhz's question was loaded and that he felt like his posts deserved attention. It seemed to me that he was at least a little suspicious of ofrhz and if he is then I don't know why he isn't voting for anyone. And 197 is an ATE designed to make us sympathize with him and not want to vote for him. That's NAI to me because I do that all the time as both town and scum
You're misunderstanding my position. It's more nuanced than that.
In my view, Pintu is voting JJH for doing a certain behavior (buddying). In my opinion, Ofrhz's question could be interpreted as another instance of that behavior. If Pintu thinks that behavior is scummy in JJH, it follows that he would be liable to think it's also scummy in Ofrhz (or even in SS who also called me towny in response to someone calling me scummy), or at least be worth of investigation. Instead he accepts the surface explanation when prompted.

My personal stance is that while ofrhz's question is meaningful, it is NAI. But I didn't start from the supposition that it was AI, and Pintu appears to have done so. My suspicion value on ofrhz is offsetting-probabilities, could be scum buddying or just town having a town read. NAI behavior. But then I thought the same thing about JJH's position, and that's where Pintu and I disagreed.

(I agree that you should all disregard 197. That's why I put it in a spoiler. It's an explanation of why I'm trying harder than prior. Nothing more.)
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Post Post #257 (isolation #27) » Thu May 24, 2018 1:15 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 252, pinturicchio wrote:@Zoronos I'm not voting JJH at this moment
I know but you indicated you agreed with NSG's case on him / that was scummy.
Simply put, from my chair if you think JJH is scummy for buddying, you should be wondering about / investigating Orhz and SS as well. Maybe you came to different conclusions on them for ~reasons~, but I'd expect them to get at least some cursory investigation.

But I'd be remiss if I jumped to the end instead of picking up our discussion where we stopped.
In post 206, pinturicchio wrote: Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him :lol: but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.
So, bottom line it for me:
1) do you think JJH is scummy?
2) do you think NSG's case is a) towny, and correct b) towny but ???? accuracy c) towny but wrong
I'm presuming since you already expressed a town read on her that we can skip over it being NAI or scummy.
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Post Post #270 (isolation #28) » Thu May 24, 2018 5:19 pm

Post by Zoronos »

1) I understand.
2) Sorry, must have missed that, didn't mean to ask a redundant question. And yes, that's exactly what I mean by correct. I've seen plenty of cases where I looked at them and went "I don't agree with your read at all, but I think what you wrote came from town.' I realize there's some air gap between 'He's def scum' and 'He's doing scummy things', but what I was interested in was whether or not you found his underlying posting scummy for the reasons stated in the case. And it sounds like that's 'qualified-yes'.

3) I think / thought ofhrz's question had intent behind it (even if he's disclaiming it), so I figured others would reasonably wonder it as well. Certainly so if they were thinking about buddying behaviors.

I don't feel buddied by him; he's been much more passive in his town read on me, but he did respond to a vote / scumread on me (I forget which, it was a while ago) by stating he townread me. He's in the pool of 'people that defended Zor' though, hence why I raised his name here.
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Post Post #354 (isolation #29) » Fri May 25, 2018 6:19 am

Post by Zoronos »

I feel like I should dump my thoughts from my discussion with Pintu, but they’re still a bit jumbly. So, bear with me.

I think Pintu is seeing the evidence completely differently than I am. At first I wanted to call that scummy, but if I had one word to describe our discussion, that word would be “reasonable”. He never got incensed or frustrated, or called me scummy for leaning on him, he just calmly explained his position and why he disagreed with me.
I don’t really like his predicates, but he was very insist on their validity, and he took those predicates to a reasonable place. I can see how he got from A to B, even if I disagree with A. He didn’t bow or give an inch in his discussion, while remaining willing to engage it.

My gut says that’s towny but I struggle to clearly explain why or specifically what parts of our discussion made me feel towny on him. Maybe that he’s playing highly cooperatively?

Sorry for the mess, but that’s where I ended up. I wish I could have ended up at a ‘yeah, got the scum!, but that would be stretching for a conclusion I wanted instead of the conclusion I think the evidence points towards. I think my initial scum lean was wrong.
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Post Post #359 (isolation #30) » Fri May 25, 2018 10:37 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 355, BlackStar wrote:
ofrhz wrote:VOTE: Blackstar
This is a gross vote
Can you explain this?
Rather, the adjective 'gross' is not what I'd expect. Scummy? Misinformed? Incongruous? Doesn't fit his other reads?
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Post Post #360 (isolation #31) » Fri May 25, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 307, the worst wrote:
In post 277, HitAlt wrote:Orfcz+duck are scum btw.
More certain of the duck.

VOTE: the worse
you're presented with this opportunity
you pick me over ofrhz. I don't think this was just for the wagon. I genuinely think you have me pinned for a mislynch and jumped on board out of sheer opportunism.
So, the_worst, I was reading back and thinking about Blackstar and Ofrhz, and I noticed this (more specifically, I was reading the combined Ofhrz+Blackstar ISO-thingy-is-there-a-name-for-that-where-you-see-two-people-but-nothing-else?)

What's your read on Ofrhz? Curious how that was informing your response here.
I don't have a good read yet on HitAlt, Blackstar, or Ofrhz and I'm trying to pick apart this current tangle that seems to involve the three of them plus you.
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Post Post #362 (isolation #32) » Fri May 25, 2018 11:56 am

Post by Zoronos »

So you think both of HitAlt's reads are bad then I presume (unless you'd like to claim scum).
Legit but inaccurate, or evil scum trying for mislynches?
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Post Post #398 (isolation #33) » Fri May 25, 2018 2:32 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 394, pinturicchio wrote: Zoronos I think me being cooperative with you started because I am townreading you (you remember my first towngame in this place), and even if we got different conclusions, I now got a townread on you, and that's good. What I don't get is why were you scumleaning/reading me in the first place; you started asking me questions before seeing that our conclusions were different, so what was first, the duckling or the egg?
Did I not explain that? I thought I explained that.
You launched into PR-talk / setup discussion before giving out reads, and your volume-of-posting early was focused there initially instead of the other posters. Basically it was the first place you enthusiastically engaged the thread (short posts vs long posts). Same for MathDino. I recall the_worst and HitAlt said something like it's not out of character for you and Mathdino, so I figured I'd lean in slowly rather than going full bore.

Contrast ruru who started the setup discussion but was simultaneously giving reads.
I could have sworn I explained this. If I didn't my apologies.
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Post Post #401 (isolation #34) » Fri May 25, 2018 2:51 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I talked about that here: + . I realize that's a couple days and 10 pages ago.

I'm not sold on MD's towniness yet; none of his reads so far have been out in front of thread consensus. He's been going with the flow as far as I can tell. Which is a bit of a reversal of the position I had coming out of 142+143.
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Post Post #402 (isolation #35) » Fri May 25, 2018 2:53 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Which now that I look back, was also a response to a thought from HitAlt...
I'm not sure if that's meaningful, but I was trying to untangle the wagon on the_worst earlier to decide if it was righteous or not, and HitAlt was part of that system as well.
Maybe coincidence.
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Post Post #410 (isolation #36) » Fri May 25, 2018 3:07 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 404, pinturicchio wrote: Yes I was talking about 143 precisely, I get that you thought pushing me over Math was more worthy, but why not both? Let me rephrase that: instead of interacting only with me, why not interacting with both? I think we would have a better read on Mathdino if you would've proceded in that way too
I mean, you're right. Benefit of hindsight.

Two reasons:
1)
I felt MD had done verrrryyy slightly more than you at the time I wrote that.

2)
I played a game with him a few years back where I felt he was obv-town really fast, because he was seeing basically the exact same things I was and coming to the exact same conclusions and typing the same thought processes into the thread.
A town indicator that I tend to use a lot early is to see if (without talking about it / blurting it into the thread first) people have the same thought processes as me; same thought processes -> same alignment.
I was secretly hoping that would work again but uhhhh it hasn't because he hasn't done much of anything. And now that I've said it out loud, I've ruined it.

I actually got burned heavily by misusing it recently; I forgot that I had written something already, so I mistook parroting for this tell and town-read someone I shouldn't have.
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Post Post #413 (isolation #37) » Fri May 25, 2018 3:30 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 411, pinturicchio wrote:Oooooh shit sorry you were not pushing him on purpose, that makes perfect sense
No worries. It was a very valid question, and being transparent about it is more valuable than a 'super secret special tell'.
MD suspicion is my back pocket read; I wanted to wait a bit more for him to engage the game before pursuing it.

My current head scratch is the wagon on the_worst. Something about it feels off, but I'm frankly not sure what or even where to begin picking it apart.
Blackstar seems mostly legit but his commitment to it was pretty low; he hopped off to chase ofhrz for voting on him (I asked about his 'gross' comment earlier). He town read HitAlt so +1'ing HitAlt's vote isn't super surprising.
HitAlt hadn't really conversed with the_worst much about AI things (that I picked up on) prior to the vote, so it looked a bit like the read came from nowhere. He explained later, but I'm not totally sure I buy it.

I don't know yet, my gut doesn't like it, but I'm not sure which part or why.
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Post Post #426 (isolation #38) » Fri May 25, 2018 8:27 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 422, davesaz wrote: Just to confirm, you're talking about HitAlt in the last sentence there?
Not only HitAlt; my phrasing is imperfect but I meant to include the_worst in my vague suspicion.
I don’t suspect BlackStar, his part in the dance seems towny, but something in the way the_worst and HitAlt have interacted bugs me and I can’t put my finger on precisely what or why.

The wagon only ever got to two votes, it felt bigger to me I think because of the flurry of posting it created but when I checked the VC it was only HitAlt and BlackStar. And BlackStar wandered off it pretty fast.
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Post Post #437 (isolation #39) » Sat May 26, 2018 10:23 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 424, HitAlt wrote:I have no reason to reverse my scumread on the duck.
Talk to me about why you scum read the duck.
Based on what you wrote prior, , you think he's TMI on the ofrhz (or defending a partner). Since then he seems to be claiming a town read on ofrhz .
You had an early town read on the the_worst so there's clearly been some trajectory change in this read. You moved from 'duck is towny' to 'duck is scummy + [not sure on ofrhz ]' -> 'both ofrhz and duck are scummy'.
(For the sake of this discussion, I am going to assume that , which was later than where you called both scum was an accurate reflection of your thoughts prior to 277)

What have you thought about the duck's posting in the time since you initially pronounced that read? He's certainly increased a lot in volume, at least to my estimation.
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Post Post #441 (isolation #40) » Sat May 26, 2018 11:08 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 438, the worst wrote:437 put my confusion with HitAlt a lot more legibly than I would've
I'm not sure that's a great idea because half the motivation for that post is "Hmmmm maybe HitAlt is scum" and half is "HitAlt sell me on the duck being scum".

My scum reads at this point aren't in a great state.
I'm actually not a huge fan of HWS or the numerosaurus because none of their reads have jumped out ahead of thread consensus so far.
Davesaz doesn't really (yet) seem to be pushing new content into the mix but he also doesn't have a lot of posts, so I'm circling on those three waiting for them to do something to get a better eval.

I don't know what to do about Something_Smart or JJH yet. That said, if I am suspicious of MD that leads me to lower suspicion value on JJH since scumsaurus is less likely to say 'Yeah, JJH will be obvtown eventually' about his partner.
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Post Post #444 (isolation #41) » Sat May 26, 2018 11:17 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 439, davesaz wrote:Zoronos has your worst read changed?
Maybe? I don't know yet.
So, this is going to sound stupid, but bear with me. They had a discussion starting around that I feel like just circled each other a tad but didn't really go anywhere or produce much of anything.
Then they basically did that same dance again starting around when HitAlt voted the worst (it jumps to because it seems like HitAlt is afk or w/e when worst tries to talk).

I can't put my finger on why those sequences bug me, but it seems like they're more of extended jokes / conversation than attempts to sort eachother? Just like 'Hey I scum read you okay bye'.
HitAlt comes back in with some reasoning, so that's where I figured it made the most sense to start unpacking the sequence.

Do TheWorst+HitAlt together ISO and maybe you'll see what I mean?
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Post Post #449 (isolation #42) » Sat May 26, 2018 11:39 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 445, davesaz wrote:
In post 441, Zoronos wrote: I'm actually not a huge fan of HWS or the numerosaurus because none of their reads have jumped out ahead of thread consensus so far.
Do you often use "new idea" to mean "town" when reading people?
Davesaz doesn't really (yet) seem to be pushing new content into the mix but he also doesn't have a lot of posts,
These questions I'm asking, and the answers they are supposed to generate, are new content
so I'm circling on those three waiting for them to do something to get a better eval.
I see the three people you're talking about as being completely different. I was explicitly not here, HWS and Mathdino did very different things so far. What's the connection in your mind that makes you put this list together. Furthermore are there other people with similar low contribution? I suspect there are having skimmed to keep up, but interested to know what you think.
I don't know what to do about Something_Smart or JJH yet. That said, if I am suspicious of MD that leads me to lower suspicion value on JJH since scumsaurus is less likely to say 'Yeah, JJH will be obvtown eventually' about his partner.
IIRC, JJH said something rather specific about how he's approaching the game -- what did you think about that?
As far as I know, MD has a lot of experience playing with JJH, for you how does that affect what he said about future JJH expectations?
1) I think new ideas are a town tell. Town want to push the game forwards. If the thread consensus is currently not aligned on a scum then repeating thread consensus ideas is a good way for scum to active lurk while appearing helpful, since they are both okay with status quo and want to not be easily outed by doing nothing.
Noise without substance.

2) I understand. That's why I'm waiting instead of pouncing. When you get some conclusions, lets talk about them.

3) 'People I want to see more content from'. Yes, there are others people with similar low content, Something_smart and JJH, they're listed just below that line in the post. But I feel both have done more in terms of 'new opinions' / 'proactive content' then either of the three on that line, even if those opinions didn't always turn out super popular. (See: JJH clapping at Blackstar then getting voted by NSG for it)

4) I'm not sure what you're referring to vis-a-vis game approach. ? If so, I found that NAI.
MD's statement about JJH becoming obvtown really doesn't do much for me overall, beyond giving me reason to have some extra patience with early JJH lurking. It also, imo, lowers the probability of an S+S pairing. Not eliminates, but lowers likelihood. A scum MD has every reason to expect a town JJH to eventually act towny, and a town MD would just be faithfully presenting his view of the meta.
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Post Post #451 (isolation #43) » Sat May 26, 2018 11:47 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 446, davesaz wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Mathdino is one of the players that for me will be a contra read.
When they're town they do things that make me think they're scum trying to control the situation.
I get paranoid of players like that because one of my early games after moving to this site was a lylo loss to scum leading town.

Here's the contra part. Since he is usually controlling to the point I think he's scum, if he's not doing that it likely means he's scum.
VOTE: Mathdino
Since you asked me about my impression of other people's meta reads, let's go here:
In post 408, ruru wrote:
In post 403, northsidegal wrote:i had my thoughts on mathdino typed up in the beginnings of a post going over all of my scumreads that i deleted, but basically he's in the lower tier for me right now mostly as a formality. he hasn't had much of a presence as of yet and i know that's more of a sitewide thing than a "this game" thing, but i still couldn't justify townreading him as of now.
His activity isn't really AI right? I feel like his scum meta that I've read previously was like all power wolfing

Also I mean we're not wagoning the dinosaur d1 right like who does that
Ruru said she feels like the numerosauros's scum meta is power wolfing.
Do you feel ruru is lying, misinformed, or otherwise how does that square with your impressions?
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Post Post #471 (isolation #44) » Sat May 26, 2018 5:36 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 463, the worst wrote:maybe, that sounds like a lot of effort.
ohey our accounts were made within a day of each other's! :D
Would you mind doing this thing? I think it would be helpful.
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Post Post #472 (isolation #45) » Sat May 26, 2018 5:39 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 469, davesaz wrote:The Mathdino I know power towns.
Votes have multiple purposes.
Why categorize it as lazy? I see it as thought provoking.
Nah your read was lazy. It was like this weird "He fooled me and I'm wrong alot so AH HA!"
It takes only the input of posting activity, self-sabotages your credibility (I always read him wrong ergo...), then comes up with a scum read.
Like, I have non-zero MathDino suspicion right now, but your case was very meh.

Talk to me about other reasons why MathDino might be scum.
Or if we're feeling spicy, talk to me about why TheWorst might be scum.

I'm not currently super sympathetic to a ruru-scum case though.
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Post Post #477 (isolation #46) » Sat May 26, 2018 5:58 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I hate meta, but I read an ISO of a scumgame he/she played recently.
I have a take on the current situation but maybe the time is not yet right to share that take.
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Post Post #479 (isolation #47) » Sat May 26, 2018 6:16 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I don’t know yet. Probably not productive.
Hint: Think about ofhrz’s reaction state to the train, IMO.
I shouldn’t drink and mafia.

We’ll see where ofhrz decides to go with things when he/she/they/{pronoun} comes back.
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Post Post #480 (isolation #48) » Sat May 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Post by Zoronos »

JJH - what do you think of the dinosaur and or HitAlt?
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Post Post #482 (isolation #49) » Sat May 26, 2018 6:24 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I never forget stuff.
Real talk lazysaurus makes me sad because I was hoping to play with town super cool math dino because I played a game with him like two years ago and he got hard powerescumed by Thor then replaced out and I was sad because he was obvtown. We may need to lynch him.

I’m a little worried that NSG isn’t as rapid about prosecutin her scum case as in 2005 but maybe that’s because she’s setting a clever trap idk she mentioned that the other day, but the raw emotional intensity is missing so I’m concerned. Or maybe she’s just not sure yet but I have concerns.

Dave seems kinda like a jerk but that might be town full of himself, but frustration /anger is the easiest emotion to fake so it might be a scum front to avoid cooperating with town. Cooperation is towny imo.
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Post Post #483 (isolation #50) » Sat May 26, 2018 6:25 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Rapid -> rabid.
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Post Post #489 (isolation #51) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:01 pm

Post by Zoronos »

You are very confrontational and don't seem to give a shit about thread consensus. Which is maybe fine, game could use some shakeups.
You're all 'rawr I think ruru is scum for ~reasons~ even though everyone else seems sold on towniness'.
Like, of all the ofhrz votes, why ruru's to question? If I were scum hunting on that wagon, I'd likely poke mathdino.

Think there are multiple scum on the wagon? Because you're voting one person on the wagon (dino) and questioning a second.
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Post Post #491 (isolation #52) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:03 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 486, davesaz wrote:I see it as immaterial for two reasons.
Our history with Mathdino is disjoint, and with no games in common it's possible we're both right.
I'm making a statement about MD's town meta. When town he's pushy and controlling. If he's not doing that I think he's likely to be scum.
In that sense my read is not about matching scum meta, it's about not matching town meta. There is a difference.
How can it be immaterial.
You're clearly saying he only has one town meta, and if he's not playing it, he must be scum.
Why is the converse not equally viable? He has one town meta but multiple scum metas? Or is ruru a dirty rotten liar?!?
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Post Post #497 (isolation #53) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:16 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 495, davesaz wrote:The other reasons will need to wait -- in fact there is still sorting to be done there. Votes have multiple uses. As far as I know he has not returned to this game despite being heavily active.
I don't currently think The Worst is likely to be scum.

Do you think refusing to give reasons for scumreads and votes is towny?
But I'm impatient now. :-(

I think it's poor play but NAI overall. Seem too many townies lolvote in my time to believe it's a scum indicator.
When I'm feeling super sure of myself sometimes I like to 'surprise gotcha switcheroo aha!' vote. But that was a long time ago when I was actually good.
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Post Post #498 (isolation #54) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:21 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 495, davesaz wrote:You're confused about something.
Town Mathdino triggers my "scum leading town" tell. Now that I've picked up on that, if he were acting that way I'd think he is town.
There exist players you have to apply opposite logic to, he's one of them.
This makes no sense at all to me.
Can you restate your answer in the form of an actual answer.

Maybe I can restate my question in the form of a better question.

Ruru says that MathDino's scum MO is power wolfing aka scum leading town. You're saying MathDino's town meta feels like scum leading town to you, except it's town leading town.
If both of those things were true, he'd always be town mayoring. Except he's not town mayoring here, so one of those things must be false. Or he somehow has a third meta~
Can you explain to me how both of those things can be true simultaneously and still fit your conclusion?
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Post Post #502 (isolation #55) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:31 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 499, davesaz wrote: Maybe that's exactly why I'm asking these questions. I don't see it as confrontational though. I don't think I've even been impolite.

I looked at Mathdino in ISO, was surprised by what I saw, and voted there to stir the coals a bit. It's not prompted by the ofhrz vote at all, it's prompted by his overall content. Didn't expect that to evoke a strong reaction from anyone, and instead two 3rd parties decided it was necessary to jump in.

The question to ruru is a very simple one. It was a naked vote, and I'd like to have some explanation. I usually ask for explanations of naked votes. When I ask for explanations and the response is diversionary, it's a huge red flag.
I normally only ask for explanations for votes when something about the player bothers me / seems suspicious.
Of all the people on the ofhrz wagon, you chose to question ruru. And you persisted in questioning ruru. That suggests you don't have an active sort on ruru and are trying to sort her? In a vacuum, fine, no problem. It doesn't agree with my take on the game but w/e I guess you do you. But you've selected two voters on the ofhrz to suspect, and that strikes me as a pattern.

I think I like where you're going on the mathdino read, I'm just not sure I like how you're getting there.
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Post Post #503 (isolation #56) » Sat May 26, 2018 7:33 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 501, davesaz wrote:I have never played in a game with ruru.
The MD games that ruru has seen are not the same MD games that I have seen.
The sets are disjoint, there is no comparison between them.
And yes, I would be hugely surprised if MD played every scum game the same way. Multiple metas are a given, else he'd get lynched every time as scum. This is mafia 101...
Yes, but your case is contingent on him only having one town meta, and because he's not playing it you're voting him.
Your case contradicts this statement.

I wish people that agreed with me had better cases for doing it it would make me feel much better.
Talk to me about not-meta-case-stuff on MathDino.
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Post Post #519 (isolation #57) » Sat May 26, 2018 9:28 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 517, HitAlt wrote:
In post 437, Zoronos wrote:
In post 424, HitAlt wrote:I have no reason to reverse my scumread on the duck.
Talk to me about why you scum read the duck.
Based on what you wrote prior, , you think he's TMI on the ofrhz (or defending a partner). Since then he seems to be claiming a town read on ofrhz .
You had an early town read on the the_worst so there's clearly been some trajectory change in this read. You moved from 'duck is towny' to 'duck is scummy + [not sure on ofrhz ]' -> 'both ofrhz and duck are scummy'.
You missed my very next post after 129:
In post 131, HitAlt wrote:They can def. be chill as scum too, but I have a strong vibe.
I had a strong vibe
because they felt relaxed and "themselves" at that point.

That sensation wore off, and I think them not finding a good wagon yet is one implication of scum!worst.
Then their posts towards the one notable wagon today raised some real red flags, so now they are actually a scumread.
In post 437, Zoronos wrote:What have you thought about the duck's posting in the time since you initially pronounced that read?
He's certainly increased a lot in volume
, at least to my estimation.
..which is why I I put my words as in "I have no reason to reverse my read".
Volume is NAI on their part.
That's why you were town reading the_worst? Huh, I guess I didn't really understand that.

Tell me more about these red flags.
I mean, yeah, he's increased in volume, I was hoping you'd have some thoughts about what was in those posts. Like, anything in them increase your certainty here?
Help me understand your read. Sell me.
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Post Post #534 (isolation #58) » Sun May 27, 2018 8:33 am

Post by Zoronos »

Hello I’m back and definitely not drinking.
I feel a little bad at calling Dave a jerk and should probably have kept my NSG paranoia to myself
.
Math -> talk to me about the JJH vote?

JJH -> I’m having trouble parsing the thing you just wrote. What 1v1 are you referring to?
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Post Post #563 (isolation #59) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:05 am

Post by Zoronos »

Someone want to fill me in on what 'WK / WKing' means?
In post 537, Mathdino wrote:I'm voting jjh because I know he's super obvtown as town and he hasn't obvtowned
We've discussed this privately after he died in the game I modded so he knows my expectations
He understands my vote so he's not scumreading me for it
So he can't just 1v1 me
So, make this explicit for me. You're basically saying 'He hasn't done enough towny things yet'? Is that a fair estimation of your read state, or am I missing something / not giving due credit to a deeper thought?

Alternatively, taking into account your 'too many townreads' statement, is this more of a PoE read? Everyone else is towny -> vote the ???'s until scum all ded.
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Post Post #568 (isolation #60) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:14 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 564, Mathdino wrote:White knighting, aka hard defending a townie against an evil voter

Yes that is what I am saying

It's not just a PoE read, it's me assuming that scum jjh is incapable of obvtowning
Ah. I hadn't seen it reduced to an acronym before. I am familiar with the underlying idea. A mash up of buddying and being on the right side of history via TMI.

If you had agreed with the PoE sentiment, I was going to ask you how HWS fit into that puzzle, but both that wasn't your reasoning and I see he's posted twice above me and I haven't really digested yet what he wrote.

Jumping topics again, since you said HitAlt seems towny to you. Agree or Disagree - HitAlt seems standoffish / not actively inclined towards cooperation with others?
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Post Post #574 (isolation #61) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:21 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 570, northsidegal wrote:
In post 563, Zoronos wrote:Someone want to fill me in on what 'WK / WKing' means?
Didn't I use this exact term earlier when describing jjh and his defense of you?
I had to go back and check to make sure I wasn't insane; no, you wrote it out.
I know what a White Knight is. I was just head scratching at what the acronym was and now feel stupid for not putting 2+2 together.
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Post Post #575 (isolation #62) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:24 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 569, Mathdino wrote:Yeah, stubborn
That's very human and is between a playstyle tell and a towntell
I agree with the former but I don't think I agree with the latter.
But I wasn't really asking about stubbornness, I was asking about cooperation. 'Plays well with others'.

to wit - Would you characterize HitAlt as actively pressing his read (building consensus, creating a wagon, that is, earnest activity designed to get his target lynched), or vote parking? (Or somewhere in the middle. It's a spectrum, obviously)
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Post Post #580 (isolation #63) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:41 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 576, Mathdino wrote:What does it matter? Neither of those things are scumtells except by meta
Stubbornness is NAI, imo. That's why it wasn't my question.
Please don't rephrase what I asked into something I didn't (HeWhoSwims...)

Why it matters -> scum play is effectively an extended active lurk. Look towny without actually helping progress to a game solve. They want to appear to be doing useful things (finding scum, voting, etc) without actually contributing.
I find a critical difference between a towny that really really believes X is scum and we should lynch them (even if they're going it alone / tunnelling), and a scum that has vote parked because they need to be voting / 'suspecting' someone or else they're obvious, but don't really care if that person gets lynched.

So, to repeat, do you feel that HitAlt is actively pressing the read, vote parking, or somewhere in between?
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Post Post #581 (isolation #64) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:42 am

Post by Zoronos »

Ugh acronyms.
BoP?
PoE is process of elimination, obviously.
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Post Post #583 (isolation #65) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:46 am

Post by Zoronos »

Yeah, sorry, I looked back at what I actually asked and it was unclear. I know what I meant but didn't communicate that properly.
Misrepresentation allegation withdrawn.

(I am familiar with burden of proficiency. I just mostly suck at figuring out acronyms)
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Post Post #588 (isolation #66) » Sun May 27, 2018 9:56 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 585, Mathdino wrote:I disagree with your priors. I think that a lot of townies are perfectly willing to votepark and feel the pressure to suspect SOMEONE but also don't care who gets lynched.
Consider that scum have more alignment information and thus have more reason to care who gets lynched than town, who is effectively gambling.

That said, one useful tell I think I can pull from a modified version of your logic is
does HitAlt's conviction match up with his stated reads?

I'll ISO HitAlt again.
I think the notion that they care more than town who gets lynched needs to caveat that they care if one of them gets lynched. In a static solution where no scum is in danger, they tend to not give a flying.
I certainly think your modification is valid, but I also think there's value in my original. Moreover, while the lack of motivation may be NAI or playstyle dependent, I feel the presence of it is an active town indicator.

I understand town-feeling-alone-and-frightened. Isolation is a strong emotional motivator. When you're scum you have a team, when you're town if you don't have a lot of courage it can be a really lonely process.
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Post Post #594 (isolation #67) » Sun May 27, 2018 10:08 am

Post by Zoronos »

I don't actually have a read yet on HitAlt I personally wanted to give him the time he requested to present his case on duck-prime. I'm not convinced if the_worst's towniness yet and he hasn't been much of a focus (I wrote a bunch about this a few pages ago) heretofore.
But you proposed a town read on HitAlt so I was ~curious~.

He enumerated two scum reads (ofrhz and duckprime) in a post, and one of them was a leading wagon and one of them was not, and he chose to vote the one that wasn't.
Part of my brain went "hmmmmm maybe scum vote parking off wagon while increasing suspicion on wagon and leaving themselves open to join later" and another went "Hmmmm maybe scum voting townie while shading partner for later bus" and a third went "Hmmm maybe town for going against consensus / identifying someone that had been ignored previously" because lets face it, the worst did not get talked about much after the first couple pages of the thread.

pedit: I see Math wrote a bunch of stuff while I was typing this. I haven't read your post yet but instead of reading it and applying new information to this post I elect to just hit the submit button because reading and thinking are hard
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Post Post #595 (isolation #68) » Sun May 27, 2018 10:14 am

Post by Zoronos »

I am hard pressed to disagree with those thoughts on HitAlt.
My suspicion on MathDino and HitAlt have both decreased.

No further questions for the moment, counselor.
(I need to digest HWS posts, I feel like I should go there next but I'm not sure yet where to begin / what the proper question is to unpack)
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Post Post #600 (isolation #69) » Sun May 27, 2018 10:36 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 596, the worst wrote:This is great
You were the first duck, ergo you are duck-prime. JJH is the second duck, ergo he is duck-sub-one. Further ducks will be numbered accordingly.
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Post Post #624 (isolation #70) » Mon May 28, 2018 7:22 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 622, Mathdino wrote:Mfw you jackasses get bored just as I get interested in the game

Hitalt just spewed town ftr
Hard disagree. Explain.
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Post Post #627 (isolation #71) » Mon May 28, 2018 7:36 am

Post by Zoronos »

Ugh.
Maybe?

I can see a world where he’s trying to elide that there’s a framer in hopes that other people forget but that’s such a stupid scum line of play in an open.
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Post Post #631 (isolation #72) » Mon May 28, 2018 7:53 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 628, HitAlt wrote:Yea, I can see why Zoro dislikes me being obv.town..
Tbf though, it wouldn't be outside of my scumrange to fake a townslip, but lol!meta am I right?
Have you seriously not read what I’ve posted in the last day?
Dino made a pretty solid case for your towniness yesterday and I agreed with it.

I’m annoyed that instead of actually selling me on your theworst theory you took the opportunity to misrepresent my stance using a stale state of my reads.

So, let’s go back to it. Sell me on scum theworst, because Dino has me believing you are town.

I never find meta or tone arguments compelling, and that was your last statement on it. My problem with the worst is that I feel most of his posting has been fluffy and active lurk ish. What do you think about that take?
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Post Post #635 (isolation #73) » Mon May 28, 2018 8:02 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 632, BlackStar wrote:What do you guys think about ofhrz being partners with jjh?
I’m not independently scum reading ofhrz so odds seem low to me?
What’s the connection between those two players?
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Post Post #638 (isolation #74) » Mon May 28, 2018 8:27 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 636, BlackStar wrote:It seems like jjh is defending ofrhz really hard and his reasons feel weak to me
If one of them is scum in the pair I think it would be more likely JJH imo because of ofhrz’s reaction to the votes.
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Post Post #710 (isolation #75) » Mon May 28, 2018 8:54 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Sorry I was away all day.
The worst - Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we're not lynching ofhrz today. Doesn't matter why, maybe they're a magical day commuter that leaves the game during day phase. Whatever, doesn't matter.
How else would you look at for scum?
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Post Post #716 (isolation #76) » Mon May 28, 2018 9:29 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 712, the worst wrote:If you're scum using this tunnel shit as a smoke screen I will akshully 1v1 u irl bro

Zoronos, I'm totally at a loss. I'll do some fun reading later. Who do you think is scum rn?
I don't know.

I wanted to surprise switcheroo vote HWS when I got back to my computer but I re-read his ISO and I can't bring myself to do it. I wanted to be like 'Yeah, this guy everyone is ignoring who is totally lurking is probably the scum!' but his posting doesn't fit the mold. He got a couple early town reads then largely went into lurk / talk about theory posting modes. But doesn't seem to have an agenda with it that I can spot, and he's doing some sorting.

I'm not voting Pintu, Ruru, or Blackstar unless crazy shit really goes down. (Read: I think they're town)
NSG and Math aren't leaning in as heavily as I was hoping, but they're doing work and right now that's enough for me, so nope on that.
HitAlt is the aggroest, most anti-charismatic scum I've seen since I played a game a few years ago with Thor, or he's just town. It could be theater (and MD is wrong on his town-spew comment. I turned it over in my head today, and remembered a game where scum literally forgot their own PR's and got town read off it. Not on this site, or I'd link it. I modded it and facepalmed when it happened. Scum can just be dumb, because humans are dumb.) but I'm putting those odds on the outside chance of things. So nope on that vote right now.

PoE means I'm left with a lynch pool of Davesaz, JJH, S_S, and you. I'm not getting a super scummy vibe from JJH or S_S though, which is troubling.
My heart is telling me to vote Davesaz, but I can't put together a cogent case from looking at his posting, and even if it is davesaz, he has scum buddies so why am I not seeing them.
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Post Post #721 (isolation #77) » Mon May 28, 2018 9:53 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 718, the worst wrote:I actually kinda hate Dave's voting but idrk what I'd do different
I'm less offended by dave's voting, because his reason for voting MD was bad but he was pretty adamant about the validity of his meta argument. And I felt it was uhh transparently poor, and I think scum would make it something less transparently bad if they were going to lie. There's better ways to be vague than what Daveasz chose to do.
I think it was a poor vote but it wasn't a sneaky poor vote. It was almost "look at this vote, it is kinda dumb!" Also, when I pointed out that his suspicion was on two people on the ofhrz wagon he denied at all they were connected. I'd anticipate a scum there would try for some subtle white knighting, call the ofhrz wagon bad, or something, use that to legitimize his reads. But he acted offended that I even made the observation.

My problem with Daveasz was his push on ruru. The questions felt largely answerable from reading the thread, imo. Maybe I'm being insufficiently generous here, but I feel pretty okay in my town ruru read, and my assessment of their vote on ofhrz was 'Not malicious, maybe misguided', and especially in the context of the other things ruru has written it just felt like an odd choice to specifically call out that vote, from amongst all the naked-vote options to chose.
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Post Post #728 (isolation #78) » Mon May 28, 2018 10:09 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 722, the worst wrote:Ruru just like... is town imo? That vote was the one that pinged me harder than the Math vote.

Either way that's 2x vote's on people who would be stupid as shit to actually wagon. From memory Ruru defended Math when Dave voted him. his vote on Ruru might have been tinged with disdain from the math vote ig. I have not been paying stacks of attention to most of Dave's posts lemme have a read
I attacked the MD case a lot harder than ruru did, also, he started in on ruru before he voted MD. Daveasz at the end of our discussion hinting he had a town read on me, but didn't really firmly commit to that stance.

His vote on MD was in , his question to ruru about ofrhz was in . He didn't vote her until , but that was a day later and after I had been rather vociferously arguing with him about his usage of meta.
If I presume that causes precede effects, that wasn't the originating event. It might have amplified his existing read that they agreed with me and +1'ed some of the things I was saying about MD, because of conflation of antagonism, but it can't have been the incipiative factor.
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Post Post #731 (isolation #79) » Mon May 28, 2018 10:23 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 725, the worst wrote:Actually I like this a lot. Feels more like town pushing theories than scum pushing BS.
I mean, it's logically disconnected. Because his initial SR was based on MD having exactly one town meta but ???? number of scum metas.
Which is... exactly what I said prior about his voting. Like, in what world is someone going to go "Yeah, nobody will suspect this! </mustache twirl>"
In post 729, the worst wrote:Yeah, my memory had some stuff backwards. Dave seems fine for now but needs to talk w Ruru imo

Damnnnn dude your vocabulary is awesome
I'm very tired and this is what happens. I should go to sleep.
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Post Post #757 (isolation #80) » Tue May 29, 2018 6:39 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 738, davesaz wrote: Show me a single post where ruru gives a
reason
to scumread ofhrz.
That's the question that ruru absolutely refuses to answer.
Not answering it is unacceptable. Without the info I can't properly read
either
of the slots.
I am incredulous that the one thing missing from your ability to read ruru was her answer to why she's voting ofhrz. However, I agree she should provide a reason. I don't think lack of written reasoning is scummy, but it isn't pro-town, so encouraging good town play is fine.

But let's move on.
Ruru has answered your question.

Two followups:
Do you feel she has fully answered your question to your satisfaction, or did she give you the runaround?
Based on her answer, how do you read those slots now?
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Post Post #759 (isolation #81) » Tue May 29, 2018 6:44 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 749, ruru wrote:I'm reading you as likely town because moving your vote from Md to me after I talked about policy lynching you would be suicidal for scum
He was arguing with me about his MD read at the time, which brings up a good question. In all the discussion of his original position, I think this is relevant:

Hey, Daveasz, what's the current state of your MathDino read? He has, to my eyes, become more engaged with the game in the time since you wrote your case on him. Has MathDino's recent posting changed your mind or reinforced original suspicion?
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Post Post #781 (isolation #82) » Tue May 29, 2018 11:22 am

Post by Zoronos »

@JJH -
I'd like to pester you for some thoughts on two players.

What do you think of MathDino? Ignoring his meta take on you, I'm not concerned with that (I realize it's a burden-of-proficiency-by-proxy take and at what level do you usefully argue with that). More like, do you think he's scummy / not scummy.

What do you think of Daveasz? Scummy or towny?
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Post Post #784 (isolation #83) » Tue May 29, 2018 11:50 am

Post by Zoronos »

I'm flip flopping on the relevance / utility of posting some VC thoughts.
I should probably wait until Daveasz and JJH answer the pending questions I asked but ugh I like posting and don't like waiting.
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Post Post #788 (isolation #84) » Tue May 29, 2018 3:07 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 785, ofrhz wrote:Ok work is boring

My issue with BlackStar is him scumreading me for a couple of posts not seeming genuine but when I tried to talk to him about how it could’ve come off less disingenuous, he kind of just ignored it

And if you look at his iso, most of his posts are asking other people for their opinion of me or asking me. I kind of think he is tunneling on me for weak reasons. The tunnel can be from town though, especially one of the posts I quoted earlier kind of reads like “ugh I really think ofrhz is scummy but have no idea who else could be scum with her” which makes me think maybe he does actually think I’m scum instead of just faking the scumread

I would be interested in any of his other reads, especially if they go beyond tone
I was looking through BlackStar's ISO last night, and I saw him ask a bunch of questions, and one thing that stood out to me strongly is that he seemed to care about the answers to those questions and modify his stances based upon those answers. They weren't just questioned launched pointlessly into the aether to look busy.
I find that is a decent town indicator on D1.

I am leaning towards you being town, so I think he's just wrong in this instance. I don't think Blackstar is scum on the wagon. Hopefully that helps? That's what stood out to me when I was looking at his pattern of questioning.
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Post Post #791 (isolation #85) » Tue May 29, 2018 3:38 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Really?
C'mon.
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Post Post #793 (isolation #86) » Tue May 29, 2018 3:54 pm

Post by Zoronos »

NSG is being a bit on the passive side, so I feel like I could use an extra 'adult in the room'.
If you're not enthused about TW as the ofhrz counterwagon (and since you aren't voting there you don't seem enthused about ofhrz as the lynch), I'd appreciate some help turning over some stones to find a better alternative.
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Post Post #796 (isolation #87) » Tue May 29, 2018 4:09 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Math: Here, I wrote this earlier tonight but decided to hold off on posting it. It's a couple hours out of date, I haven't updated it for the last page or so of posts.

Input?

Spoiler: last vc colorized
state of my thoughts with some mild coloring applied. (I realize the green makes it hard to read the names, that's kind of intentional. I wanted them filtered out)

ofrhz
(4):
northsidegal
,
BlackStar
, the worst,
HeWhoSwims
,
the worst (3):
HitAlt
, jjh927,
ofrhz
,
jjh927 (1): Mathdino,
Mathdino (1):
pinturicchio
,
ruru
(1): davesaz,
Something_Smart (1):
ruru
,

Not Voting: Something_Smart,
Zoronos
,


If I'm putting something_smart aside, that means it's 3/4 scum in MathDino, JJH, the_worst, and davesaz.
If the worst is town, that means jjh is probably scum on the wagon, and daze is scum off the wagon, and I'm wrong about something_smart (I don't think there's a solid scum-dino -> town-Duck associative right now)
If the worst is scum, that probably still puts davesaz as scum off the wagon, and makes me think my HWS town-lean is wrong because he +1'ed HitAlt's stupid Zoronos+TW associative, possibly intending to use it if his partner got flipped while voting the counterwagon.

So, the big question atm is whether it's correct or not to put something_smart aside, and to fix the ??'s in my sort on JJH and davesaz.
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Post Post #810 (isolation #88) » Tue May 29, 2018 4:52 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 802, Mathdino wrote:I don't understand the strength of your townread on pinturicchio.

I think you're stretching a bit for D1 into a position where you're basically going to HAVE to reevaluate a lot of your reads when one flip turns your POV upside down. Your game, your playstyle though.

That definitely puts some things in perspective though. The VC isn't inconsistent with scum in {jjh, the worst, ofrhz}.

S_S doesn't seem to have done much readable yet.
I agree with basically all of those things.
Also, that's why I added the note about putting S_S aside. When I wrote that a few hours ago, he hadn't done enough in my eyes to be alignment indicating one way or another.

I have some pending questions to JJH and Daveasz, and the answers might lead to a re-eval of everything. But that's fine, I'd rather have new data show my thoughts are wrong and re-think then retrench a bad position.
I am not super on-board with an ofrhz scum read atm, so if I have to vote in that 1v1 I'm liable to vote the_worst, but I'd prefer to find something I am enthusiastic about.
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Post Post #818 (isolation #89) » Tue May 29, 2018 4:58 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Oh, sorry Math, I wrote a bunch of stuff on Pinturicchio earlier this game, and I haven't found good cause to go back and change my mind.

was my thought process while I was pursuiing Pintu, and was my conclusions.
The short version was that I didn't agree with his predicates (and he with mine) but I couldn't necessarily find fault with the reasoning he made from the predicates he was using, he struck me as both reasonable and focused on cooperating (rather than destructive discussion).
My gut reaction to the discussion was that he felt like a towny with a difference of opinion on how to proceed from the evidence rather than agenda motivated. I'm not super enthused that one of my town reads isn't helping drive the game, but making people not lurk isn't in my set of super powers.
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Post Post #821 (isolation #90) » Tue May 29, 2018 5:07 pm

Post by Zoronos »

What do you mean by 'blown up'?
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Post Post #825 (isolation #91) » Tue May 29, 2018 6:18 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Okay, so, you're town reading or at least not advocating the lynch of what I've got left in my scum pool (besides the_worst, who you're voting for, so asking about him seems a tad redundant), that means I'm upside down on my scum slate and have got scum in my town reads. If I move S_S from 'no AI content' down to 'okay scum??' that still leaves me with one wrong read, minimum, and two wrong reads if S_S is given that benefit.

Where am I going wrong? Who is scum with the worst here? I've got one guess that I alluded to above, but I'd feel better if I had more to go off of than that gut read.
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Post Post #835 (isolation #92) » Tue May 29, 2018 9:30 pm

Post by Zoronos »

The world (okay, mafia games) is a better place that I've never drawn dayvig.
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Post Post #840 (isolation #93) » Tue May 29, 2018 9:46 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 828, davesaz wrote:
In post 757, Zoronos wrote: Two followups:
Do you feel she has fully answered your question to your satisfaction, or did she give you the runaround?
Based on her answer, how do you read those slots now?
I didn't have a
strong
read on either slot.
I'm not really sure if I liked the answer or not. I had time to see it, but didn't really have time to process it fully.
In post 759, Zoronos wrote:
Hey, Daveasz, what's the current state of your MathDino read? He has, to my eyes, become more engaged with the game in the time since you wrote your case on him. Has MathDino's recent posting changed your mind or reinforced original suspicion?
Somewhat tempered toward null but also with the recognition that an adaption to his play in the game could be an attempt to improve his standing and not truly natural.

I should perhaps fill you in that my reads are rarely strong before the first scumflip.
That math read was mightly hedged, and still rested on a bad meta core.
I feel bad yelling 'answers now!' so I guess I won't, but I'd really like the answer to my first question which you obviously did not give. Take your time, but come back and answer.
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Post Post #841 (isolation #94) » Tue May 29, 2018 9:57 pm

Post by Zoronos »

So, I was pondering JJH's reply to my question about Math and Davesaz. My highlight VC list probably spoiled the intent of the question, since I was obviously looking for him to give reads on potential partners in the PoE.
But if JJH is saying legit things, I'm upside down on a read, and I've been staring at my little notepad, and I think the read I'm most likely upside down on is HWS.
His postcount is lower than I thought it was, he's been largely gliding by, and he's a potential the_worst partner.

So if we lynch JJH and he flips green and I die in the night ~mysteriously~ I'd recommend having a think about HWS. I'm not at 'tunnel until dead' levels of surety or 'murder with vig' levels of surety, but I'd recommend giving that slot increased scrutiny if I perish.

I'm not sure yet what's up. Maybe I shouldn't ramble late at night and instead go to sleep. Or maybe I shouldn't ponder pre-flip associatives. Or both.
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Post Post #844 (isolation #95) » Tue May 29, 2018 10:01 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 838, Mathdino wrote:i mean the best gamestate is where all the bad townies are also obvtown
so the good townies have to get NK'd or wagoned

i think jjh is stalling -- he says he doesn't obvtown conventionally, fine, that's cool
i also don't hardtownread people conventionally

i do townread his previous towngames in a way that i do not townread him here
he doesn't seem that interested in solving this game
he's active and all but there's a fire missing

i'm good outsourcing my vote to NSG today if it means we get a flip
VOTE: jjh927
What do you think of JJH's answers to my questions? (to wit, his reads on you and Daveasz).
Also, active? I feel like I haven't seen a lot of content from him since the first day or two when he got heat for attacking someone for voting me. Curious how you're getting a perception that he's active.

(I realize the answer to his read on you is likely redundant, so feel free to elide if necessary for the sake of brevity)
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Post Post #846 (isolation #96) » Tue May 29, 2018 10:21 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I understand what he's trying to say with the dave read, I just am not sure I agree with it.
He's saying the following things:
1) Dave is clearly lost in the woods, a scum would have more trouble hiding their TMI than dave is exhibiting.
2) It is hard to authentically fake confusion.
3) Dave's reads (I am guessing he means ruru) are non-political; that is they are so against thread consensus they are invariably bound to draw attention.
4) Dave's reads don't make a lot of sense. JJH believes that scum-dave would likely put more effort into portraying an appearance of continuity of thought.

(3) and (4) are obviously leveling arguments and I'm not sure I buy them in this particular case.

Also, I'd suggest clicking that handy Activity Overview button and sorting it by post count.
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Post Post #848 (isolation #97) » Tue May 29, 2018 10:31 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Maybe due to the banding effect in the 38-44 posters, but my initial reaction was the JJH was not super high on the post count, so classifying him as 'active' struck me as inaccurate. Especially given the bulk of his posts were near the very start of the game.
But w/e, lurking isn't strongly AI and is heavily playstyle dependent, so not a road worth continuing down.
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Post Post #877 (isolation #98) » Wed May 30, 2018 7:02 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 872, HeWhoSwims wrote:Why is the Zoronos-TW association stupid? I hope not only because its you :shifty:

Why do you excuse ofrhz here as in why couldn't be the scum on town!worst wagon? I find those 2 to be equally suspicious at this point.
In somewhat reverse order - because I think ofrhz is towny and its hard to be town and also scum on the wagon.
Talk to me about your ofrhz read -> Presented with the option of ofrhz and the worst, your vote has been on ofrhz, so walk me through that suspicion.

re: HitAlt - Because his case for it is based on a combination of misrepresentation, stale reading, and reading posts out of their surrounding context. But mostly because he's assuming my progression was ever a secret. I feel like I've been extremely forthright about my position on the worst (I'll summarize it below in case for some reason it's not obvious).

However, I have no interest in tearing it down unless I absolutely need to because I town read HitAlt and it does me no good to either get into a 1v1 with someone I don't want to lynch or degrade the credibility of someone I think is town. He's wrong, but that's fine so I don't care unless circumstances force me to care. I'd rather work with my town reads, not start wall offs with them.

Here's the summary of my progression on the_worst (this should all be readily apparent from reading my ISO but I'll save you the trouble):
I thought the worst was towny early, like page 1. Then I wasn't sure why but had a bad gut feel about the wagon (when I say wagon, I am referring to both the voters and the target, which I think is where the confusion initially arose) because of a vague feeling about the way he and HitAlt were talking. That is, my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on or what was making me feel that way.
I decided HitAlt was likely town but wasn't sure enough / enthusiastic about whether the worst was actually scum to move forward solidly. He's still in my PoE lynch pool.

So I'm searching for a lynch I am more enthusiastic about.
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Post Post #879 (isolation #99) » Wed May 30, 2018 7:59 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 878, ruru wrote:Okay this came up twice now and I'm not sure I understand statements of the form "not TvT"
If I could have defined it easily, I would have done so at the time, but I'll point out the conversation I meant and do my best to describe it.
If you go back and look at the way HitAlt and the_worst talked to eachother, starting around . HitAlt voted the worst in and the worst reached out to him with questions but hitalt was obviously away from the thread in the interim. The discussion they had starting at 332 confused me. It was very jokey, and the worst partially validated / agreed with the scum-ofhrz read in . (Maybe that's not a fair characterization of 338, but I'm not sure how to better characterize it).

I started trying to unpack it in but I'm not sure I got the clarity I wanted. My gut thought something was odd about the way they talked to eachother, but I didn't know what. Their conversation felt stilted and didn't seem to flow very naturally. Which again is an imperfect mapping of words to feelings and casts equal blame for an unequal situation. The emotional tenor didn't seem to fit the situation.
Some part of my brain went 'Could this be SvS theater?' but based on the way HitAlt has been playing I have largely dismissed that possibility.

In summary, I think HitAlt is towny and the_worst is still suspicious.
Did that help?

(Here's the HitAlt+the worst combination ISO: viewtopic.php?t=76359&f=51&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go)
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Post Post #880 (isolation #100) » Wed May 30, 2018 8:01 am

Post by Zoronos »

I owe dave some thoughts and a response to his answers to my questions, and I haven't formulated them yet - I need to ponder and I've gotten bogged down in this other discussion.
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Post Post #886 (isolation #101) » Wed May 30, 2018 9:22 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 882, HitAlt wrote:
In post 877, Zoronos wrote:That is,
my gut didn't think it was TvT but I wasn't sure what side the scum was on
or what was making me feel that way.
This is worse though, it leaves so much 50/50 in the air.
In post 877, Zoronos wrote:I decided HitAlt was likely town but
wasn't sure enough / enthusiastic about whether the worst was actually scum
to move forward solidly.
He's still in my PoE lynch pool.


So I'm searching for a lynch I am
more enthusiastic
about.
Very fence-sitty on the worst. Notice how TW is in a PoE lynchpool, but not a scumread.
Not apparently willing to lynch there D1? (another one of those this game)
Perfect place to put a scumbuddy/future mislynch in.

So this fits the bill of scum!TW=scum!Zoro. (or does someone disagree?), but also gives some credibility to scum!Zoro outside of scum!TW.
Urge to lynch the worst rises....
Augh, I'm going to throw a wrench at you.
There was a time, in the past, where I believed that it might be a 50 / 50. I don't believe that now and have been exceedingly clear about that. You edited out the part of that very post where I clarified I don't believe it's a 50/50. There is nothing left 'in the air'. Stop misrepresenting trivial details.

My read on the worst is not fence sitting. If the wagons are ofhrz vs the worst and I need to hammer one, I'm hammering the worst. There is nothing special about D1 or any other day that makes the worst magically immune to lynching.
I'm not enthusiastic about the lynch because I'm not fully convinced he's scum, so I'm looking for a lynch I am enthusiastic / convinced about. If the worst is scum, he's not solo scum in this game so he has partners some where. Even if I end the day voting the worst, looking for those partners is valuable.
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Post Post #898 (isolation #102) » Wed May 30, 2018 11:16 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 895, ruru wrote:This is the part I saw as lynchbaity
That post (from Math) made sense to me.
I'm not sure I agree with the underlying notion (because I haven't given it a lot of CPU cycles yet), but his meaning was pretty clear because I thought something similar earlier.
If I put myself in town S_S's shoes: I know I have barely been playing the game, then someone comes out with a really strong sort on me, I'd go "Hey, wait, why?" From a town perspective you know you haven't put out enough content that someone should have that strong an opinion about you. So town players should be scratching their heads whereas a scum player would just be lying to have a lynch target.

I think the critical disconnect there is the 'strong scum read' vs 'bottom of PoE' miscommunication between S_S and NSG.
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Post Post #902 (isolation #103) » Wed May 30, 2018 11:30 am

Post by Zoronos »

Ah, well.
Then I completely misunderstood your post.
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Post Post #992 (isolation #104) » Wed May 30, 2018 4:50 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 920, Mathdino wrote:why should i townread ofrhz
Do you still need an answer to this?
It seems like it's been overcome by events, but I go over it if you want.
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Post Post #993 (isolation #105) » Wed May 30, 2018 4:51 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 907, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 903, BlackStar wrote:I noticed that post too, but I don't think that's an actual scum slip
What was the point of mentioning it then?
I feel like this is a case of distinction without difference.
Obviously my reaction is colored here because I have been leaning town on Blackstar, but I think you're overindexing on an NAI factor.

I'm glad you've chosen to engage more because having you perpetually in ??? land makes me uncomfortable.
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Post Post #994 (isolation #106) » Wed May 30, 2018 4:57 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 942, Mathdino wrote:m'bad, 3 different people

core town is still {ruru, Zor, HitAlt} although i would really like to feel confident on ruru given that i didn't come up with that read and someone else did
NSG can probably be added to that for now
I have more reasons for ruru than this, but this is succinct: I don't think there's a world where scum-ruru lets me get away with . The trajectory of her read from -> -> was clearly in the direction of 'Zoronos is trying too hard / Zoronos is faking content because the evidence doesn't exist in thread yet for him to be saying the things he is' then she suddenly about-faced. If she's scum, she doubles down in response to 197, calls it an ATE, and retrenches. It was very anti-opportunistic.

Also showed she was really thinking through what was going on with the discussion on Pintu and not just scanning the thread. I can't see a solid reason for scum-ruru to interject there
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Post Post #1027 (isolation #107) » Thu May 31, 2018 2:18 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Sorry, I've been sick all day and when I can muster the brainpower been staring at ISO's inconclusively.

the_worst: I'd like two things from you please.
1) What's your read on NSG? Guessing town based on you repeatedly +1'ing her trains, but just to ease my mind I want to clarify.
2) Where do you stand on HWS? It's the obvious other counterwagon to you here, so I'm curious what your stance is on him.
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Post Post #1028 (isolation #108) » Thu May 31, 2018 2:19 pm

Post by Zoronos »

HWS never really answered the question I posed to him about ofhrz, I don't think. He just unvoted as the wagon disintegrated.
I think I owed someone else a response to something but I've forgotten what it was.
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Post Post #1031 (isolation #109) » Thu May 31, 2018 2:28 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I haven't looked for associatives between them; it wasn't really a partners question.
More a 'Where you at' question because frankly right now you're voting your own counterwagon and if it turns into the_worst vs HWS I want you to be on a read before you have to decide if you're voting HWS or not. So it was a kinda mean tricksey question but thanks for playing along I appreciate it.

I'm not sure I buy NSG transparently town yet. I've been looking for 'courage of your convictions' from her, and I haven't seen it yet. She's still a green name on my notepad, but I'm a little wary. It's entirely possible she's just disengaged from the game. We've got a bunch of lower-energy / reactive (vs dynamic + proactive) players on the list right now, so I'm not sure I blame her.
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Post Post #1033 (isolation #110) » Thu May 31, 2018 2:30 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Back to reading ISO's and deciding what I think of JJH, Davesaz, HWS, and you.

I'd feel a lot more clarity if one of my ???? reads wasn't on each wagon. I'm having a hard time fathoming the righteousness of each wagon, and I'm working to fix that.
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Post Post #1034 (isolation #111) » Thu May 31, 2018 2:31 pm

Post by Zoronos »

You -> the worst in that post.
I should have quoted and ruru interstitially posted.
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Post Post #1049 (isolation #112) » Thu May 31, 2018 3:08 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1038, Mathdino wrote:His vote on me is awful but I don't think he's reading particularly closely either so I'm really not sure
I'm not townreading him as much as he seems to think in saying that I'm buddying him this game
He wishes I would buddy him
That said, he's a bad lynch d1 and I think he's better saved for lategame

You're welcome duckling I did it for you
Maybe my brain isn't working at the moment, but I'm confused about pronouns in a couple of these.
Line one: His = JJH, me = the_worst
Line two: I'm = the_worst, he = Mathdino?
Line three & four: He / him = Mathdino?
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Post Post #1051 (isolation #113) » Thu May 31, 2018 3:09 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1048, ruru wrote:Oh wow
In post 1046, Mathdino wrote:Are you seriously pr hunting me
Am I allowed to lynch him for this or do we still think scum don't rolefish
I don't think this is a good reason to lynch.
I frequently PR hunt as town. And as scum, but nobody on this board has ever seen my scum game so you just have to believe me on that one.
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Post Post #1058 (isolation #114) » Thu May 31, 2018 5:11 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Hey - HeWhoSwims:
a) You never answered my question about ofhrz vs the_worst.
b) What is your opinion on JJH? You talked about him a little bit way back near the start of the day , but if I'm understanding right by that had turned around a bit? So I'm curious where your head is at now.
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Post Post #1081 (isolation #115) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:27 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I’m super low availability at the moment:
Math: my notes have odds of scum JJH+the worst being low odds. Did your read on the worst change or is this a compromise towards wagon unification?
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Post Post #1087 (isolation #116) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:53 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1083, northsidegal wrote:why you have them being partnered at low odds, that is.
The parked cross votes most of the day.
I thought HWS and the worst were more likely partners if HWS is scum. HWS seemed to subtly be shading the worst around when HitAlt was talking about his partner theories while HWS was still on ofrhz.

Family is in town this weekend so I’m going to around late night or brief phone posts, so no handy post links until later tonight.
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Post Post #1090 (isolation #117) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:42 pm

Post by Zoronos »

She did? I must missed that.

Huh, my mental picture of your read state did not include that suspicion Math. I’m a bit surprised.
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Post Post #1092 (isolation #118) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:19 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Likely my bias showing through. I’ve thought of JJH and the worst being incompatible scum partners, but if you think it’s possible they’re cross bussing I can understand how it would be possible to hold that viewpoint.
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Post Post #1103 (isolation #119) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:26 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Time to get down to it.
You think the worst is obvscum, fine. Who’s with him? What’s his team and why?

Yelling at NSG isn’t going to undo the wagon and undermining credibility isnt the play. If you want a rope, here’s one. Show town thought process.

I’ll be back at a computer in an hour or two to collate thoughts.
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Post Post #1106 (isolation #120) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:23 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I don't require one. Is the point of my question that obtuse and secretive?

I'm trying to show JJH an avenue towards changing the minds of people voting on him, because repeating 'the worst is obvscum' likely won't do it and attacking NSG won't either.
If he just wants to sit in a corner and complain about being lynched he will almost certainly not move any of the votes on him, he needs to show a town thought process and the way to do that is demonstrating scum hunting. I'm trying to help him if he's town, not bury him.
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Post Post #1108 (isolation #121) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1079, Mathdino wrote: Someone should meta read him if he has scum meta
With the caveat that I both think meta is overrated and that I'm not great at it:
I feel his meta suggests town, and I think his earlier in the day phase play was a slight town lean. However, I think his play in the later part of this day leans scummy. So I'm not sure I buy my own town-meta conclusion.
But that's what the meta suggests, imo.
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Post Post #1109 (isolation #122) » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I just realized that I pulled out the part of the quote that gives that context: That was about HWS.
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Post Post #1119 (isolation #123) » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:48 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 877, Zoronos wrote:
In post 872, HeWhoSwims wrote: Why do you excuse ofrhz here as in why couldn't be the scum on town!worst wagon? I find those 2 to be equally suspicious at this point.
In somewhat reverse order - because I think ofrhz is towny and its hard to be town and also scum on the wagon.
Talk to me about your ofrhz read -> Presented with the option of ofrhz and the worst, your vote has been on ofrhz, so walk me through that suspicion.
HWS -> This was the question.

So you did answer it in the strictest sense, though I was hoping for some comparison with the worst, but now that the wagon on ofhrz is gone (good), it's less relevant. You mentioned the worst being equally suspicious to ofhrz so I was ~curious~

I've been thinking about davesaz since last night. He's got his vote on you at the moment, can we talk about him HWS?
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Post Post #1132 (isolation #124) » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:24 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1127, ofrhz wrote:
In post 1108, Zoronos wrote:
In post 1079, Mathdino wrote: Someone should meta read him if he has scum meta
With the caveat that I both think meta is overrated and that I'm not great at it:
I feel his meta suggests town, and I think his earlier in the day phase play was a slight town lean. However, I think his play in the later part of this day leans scummy. So I'm not sure I buy my own town-meta conclusion.
But that's what the meta suggests, imo.
Do you mind elaborating on his meta
Keeping in mind that as soon as you define a play style that tell goes out the window:
His town games felt more confused, more spur of the moment, and he came to conclusions much slower.
His scum games he stated conclusions over process, asked more meaningless questions whose answers he didn’t seem to care about, and he seemed to be taking a wider view of the field.
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Post Post #1134 (isolation #125) » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:58 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Can you expand that thought? I care less about the end read than why you think that.
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Post Post #1137 (isolation #126) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:54 am

Post by Zoronos »

I, hmm...
I’m not really sold on the notion that questioning a consensus town read is inherently towny. I’d think it’s closer to NAI in this case since not much new was uncovered, and it didn’t result in a scum read being pushed.

Commenting on stuff is also an odd take, since his posting has been pretty sparse and largely orthogonal to primary thread topics. Which, again, is fine if it creates and drives a new scum read. But I’m not sure I’ve really seen that here. He’s voting you and now you’re the second largest lynch train, but he effectively dropped a vote and left. He’s not selling that read, not pushing to lynch it.

Talk to me about the notion here that he’s townier than your scum game together. What do you feel we’re the triggers that demarcated his scum posting that are absent here (or vice versa)
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Post Post #1139 (isolation #127) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:35 am

Post by Zoronos »

The consensus I was thinking of was the read on Ruru.
The whole ‘town hero’ bit at the end struck me as a bit over the top.

I can expound more later, but the tl;dr was that it struck me as make-work. So I’m curious if HWS (or anyone really) also got that impression, or if I’m out on an island.
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Post Post #1141 (isolation #128) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 11:19 am

Post by Zoronos »

I was referring to Dave’s read on Ruru. I don’t recall HWS having a read on Ruru that stood out to me.
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Post Post #1143 (isolation #129) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:52 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 745, davesaz wrote:because if I'm right I might be the only one seeing it and possibly
town's only hope
.
Help me obi-wan davesaz, you're my only hope.

I like seeing explanations. I think full thought process makes it harder for scum to skate by faking out reads.
But claiming to be town's only hope on D1 is a *little* over the top.

Also, I've seen bad town fail to explain reads too many times to assume that everyone that fails to explain a read is scum. I'm totally fine pushing people to explain reads, but reducing it to 'unexplained read ergo scum' will get false positives.
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Post Post #1153 (isolation #130) » Sun Jun 03, 2018 9:22 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1145, northsidegal wrote:
In post 1144, BlackStar wrote:It feels like we're just wasting time until the deadline. Speculation is cool and all, but its easier to make solid connections and cases after we lynch someone. So lets just do that already
i agree with this. it feels like we're waiting on something that just isn't coming.

i'd like to hear some specific thoughts on what the people off of the jjh wagon are doing / think of that wagon.
He's in my PoE pool, hasn't done anything to reach out of the lurkscum bucket, and when given every opportunity to help scumhunt while under pressure declined to do so (I don't feel his back and forth with Pintu was specifically revelatory here). I'll declare intent if it goes to -1.
But I'm not enthused about the lynch.

Either I'm upside down on a read or the scum are playing lurky, so I'm trying to figure out where I'm going wrong because all the scum being lurky is both unlikely and a bit zzzzz. It feels like nobody is trying to stop this other than by vacating the thread, and I'd expect *something* to be happening if scum is in the dock.
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Post Post #1165 (isolation #131) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:24 am

Post by Zoronos »

I don’t trust people not to LoLhammer, but also nobody seems enthused to vote to L -1.
Need to either consolidate the counterwagons or get the nonvoters to move.
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Post Post #1169 (isolation #132) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:32 am

Post by Zoronos »

That question seems a tad pointless.
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Post Post #1171 (isolation #133) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:02 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1154, HeWhoSwims wrote: I mean I don't think Dave is really in any danger here which is why the questioning would be more townie to me. Don't think he did it as scum where he wasn't in danger either. As for commenting I see (enough, I think) of him questioning people on their motives and just leaving his opinions and reads on stuff, which obviously is a given... but it seems to me as though he's doing less accusing and more evaluating this game and that seems town to me. Hope that's what you wanted to know?
That is exactly what I wanted to know. I don’t think I agree with your conclusions, but that type of answer is what I was looking for.

The notion that Dave isn’t in any danger here is precisely why I’m concerned about the type of questioning involved; it looked to me like make work designed to blend in without going anywhere. Neither he nor ruru were under any serious pressure, so he did something that might look like legitimate scum hunting, came to a town read, and moved on. In a vacuum those things are fine, but the questions felt a little facil and the angst a tad oversold.

Anyway, I appreciate the meta perspective. That’s useful, even if I’m not a big believer in the value of meta.
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Post Post #1173 (isolation #134) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:26 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1155, HitAlt wrote:We should lynch TW today.
I won't budge from that.

We lynch jjh927, and we likely hit town.
I wouldn't even feel bad if jjh927 DID flip today, and flips scum. I don't have a strong read on them either way, I just think they give more of a fake vibe, rather than actual scum. I just think we would have way more activity in game against his lynch if he was scum.
What is the difference in your mind here between a 'fake' vibe and a scum vibe?

I certainly agree on the activity point, and it's been worrying me a tad.
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Post Post #1174 (isolation #135) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:27 am

Post by Zoronos »

VOTE: Davesaz
My position re: hammers hasn't changed, but want to record some suspicions.
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Post Post #1186 (isolation #136) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:55 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1174, Zoronos wrote:VOTE: Davesaz
My position re: hammers hasn't changed, but want to record some suspicions.
VOTE: something_smart
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Post Post #1188 (isolation #137) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1176, BlackStar wrote:You haven't said much about why you suck read jjh. And you haven't engaged with him much since your vote. So to me it looks a little bit convenient. I've been the same way with hewhoswims though, so I don't necessarily think that makes you scum. I just thought it was worth noting that people are hopping on his wisdom but not really pushing that hard for his lynch.
After my discussion with HWS a few pages ago I think I'm back to putting him in the light town read category. It's still one of the reads I'm most likely upside down on if I am upside down somewhere, but I'm feeling better about it after talking to him.

Given the massive stall we've been seeing I wanted to evaluate if that was a wagon I wanted to push.
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Post Post #1190 (isolation #138) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:04 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1187, Something_Smart wrote:How come?
Because a bunch of your questions have struck me as pointless, had obvious answers, or were based on distinctions without difference. I've been bucketing you as null most of the day because you haven't had enough AI content that I could evaluate you with any sort of confidence, but given how little you've made waves or pushed new thoughts into the game state, at some point lack of AI content itself becomes AI content.
I want to draw a distinction between 'I am ignoring this person because they are towny' (Ruru, for example) and 'I am ignoring this person because I don't know what to think yet' (you), so, let the VC chronicle my suspicions.
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Post Post #1194 (isolation #139) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:18 am

Post by Zoronos »

I am contemplating the wisdom of going to narnia.
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Post Post #1196 (isolation #140) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:25 am

Post by Zoronos »

Is that a term here?
I don't know the corresponding jargon you guys use for 'creating a new train and suddenly lynching someone who was not previously among leading lynch candidates'. The forum I used to play on referred to that phenomenon as 'going to narnia'.
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Post Post #1199 (isolation #141) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:40 am

Post by Zoronos »

Blackstar - What's your stance on JJH?
I feel like you've said you don't like the wagon composition on JJH, and I'm kinda of agreeing, but I think HWS is just on the towny side of null, so I'd like to figure out how to best reconcile to get some lynching going.

Like, my town bin is: You, ruru, ofhz, MathDino, NSG (lean), HWS (lean) and HitAlt (lean).
What's the best lynch we can assemble out of that green-list?

(Pintu has been demoted to Null)
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Post Post #1204 (isolation #142) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:02 am

Post by Zoronos »

In a vacuum, it's not. But if it's done alongside the absence of AI / sorting questions, it's a form of active lurk.
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Post Post #1206 (isolation #143) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:07 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1201, the worst wrote: Ohhh I guess a flashwagon if it's really last minute
If it's HitAlt I'm town. I'm reasonably confident he's scum with jjh rn and I want one of them
It's not HitAlt sorry.
As repeatedly stated, if we get one more vote on JJH I'm declaring intent, but I want to wield the hammer.
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Post Post #1207 (isolation #144) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:07 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1205, Something_Smart wrote:Do you think I'm not asking sorting questions?
Yes.
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Post Post #1211 (isolation #145) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:42 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1208, Something_Smart wrote:Maybe your definition of a sorting question is different from mine. What do you consider to be a sorting question?
Well, that’s a complex question and I’m on my phone so you’re going to get a simple answer.
Two parts:
1) a sorting question leads to a read.
2) a sorting question is predicated on an alignment indicating factor.

To my viewpoint a lot of your questions have been missing (2), and I feel like I have no idea what your read state is, so I’m not sure about (1) but I grant that you could be holding back reads for ~reasons~ but if so then you’re leaving me to go entirely off (2) and I’m not liking what I’m seeing.

So, what reads have you derived and why?
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Post Post #1212 (isolation #146) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:43 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1209, ofrhz wrote:
In post 1199, Zoronos wrote:Blackstar - What's your stance on JJH?
I feel like you've said you don't like the wagon composition on JJH, and I'm kinda of agreeing, but I think HWS is just on the towny side of null, so I'd like to figure out how to best reconcile to get some lynching going.

Like, my town bin is: You, ruru, ofhz, MathDino, NSG (lean), HWS (lean) and HitAlt (lean).
What's the best lynch we can assemble out of that green-list?

(Pintu has been demoted to Null)
How about this

VOTE: the worst
NotBad.gif
Could vote it.
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Post Post #1214 (isolation #147) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:48 am

Post by Zoronos »

Find another vote for JJH and I’ll declare intent / hammer.
Or case off the green list and let’s get some murder going.
Time to force folks off the sidelines.
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Post Post #1217 (isolation #148) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:02 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Cool, so, what are your ~reads~.
Let’s get some consensus going here.
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Post Post #1225 (isolation #149) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:21 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1218, davesaz wrote:
In post 1214, Zoronos wrote:Find another vote for JJH and I’ll declare intent / hammer.
I suspect you missed the post where I said I'm willing.
Would you like that before or after this conversation with S_S?
Either way. If I’m throwing the hammer I can delay until I have what I want from S_S.
I’m also willing to die in a world where my suspicions have been made explicit; that’s kinda the point of the votes I’m making right now.
Baring complete thread amnesia someone will pursue this line tomorrow if I perish. I have at least that much faith.
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Post Post #1235 (isolation #150) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:52 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Intent to hammer

Claim please.
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Post Post #1237 (isolation #151) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:57 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I have BlackStar in my likely town bucket. I think I talked about why so it’s probably somewhere back in my ISO.
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Post Post #1241 (isolation #152) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:00 pm

Post by Zoronos »

.
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Post Post #1251 (isolation #153) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:09 pm

Post by Zoronos »

So, presuming there is no Cc (because in a CC world the action is obvious):
Scum on the wagon is most likely between the worst and pintu, IMO.
But I’d say at least 1-2 scum are off wagon and maybe all scum are off wagon given the stall.
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Post Post #1254 (isolation #154) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:19 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1253, davesaz wrote:No CC from me.
Can I interest you in HWS?
I had some lingering suspicion, especially since I could see a world where he was a partner with scum-TW, but his answers to my questions a couple pages ago I felt we’re towny in character.
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Post Post #1256 (isolation #155) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:36 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Why?
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Post Post #1257 (isolation #156) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:39 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Dave: what did you think of HWS’s answers a couple pages back? Did they strike you as scummy? If so, talk me through that.
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Post Post #1259 (isolation #157) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:43 pm

Post by Zoronos »

OMGUS detected.
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Post Post #1260 (isolation #158) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:50 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Pintu: Who are the scum / what is your lynch pool?
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Post Post #1262 (isolation #159) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:59 pm

Post by Zoronos »

That wasn’t even close to an answer.
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Post Post #1264 (isolation #160) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:01 pm

Post by Zoronos »

...
VOTE: pintu
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Post Post #1267 (isolation #161) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:11 pm

Post by Zoronos »

You have two options:
1) get voted
2) give reads.

You get to chose.
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Post Post #1270 (isolation #162) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:19 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I am voting you because you refused to answer my question. Answer it and my vote moves unless your answer is egregious.
Thanks to a lot of heel dragging we’re two days from deadline without strong consensus, so my tolerance for screwing about is low.
Either help build useful consensus or risk being the target of that consensus.
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Post Post #1271 (isolation #163) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:20 pm

Post by Zoronos »

That was @Pintu
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Post Post #1272 (isolation #164) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:39 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1269, ruru wrote:
In post 1255, Something_Smart wrote:My reads are basically:
HitAlt, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, and Zoronos are bad lynches because I townread them.
jjh is obviously a bad lynch barring a counterclaim.
Mathdino, davesaz and northsidegal are bad lynches because I haven't seen anything especially bad from them and they should be easier to sort later in the game.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.
Why is nsg is some weird null area of your readslist when she can basically only be scum with the dinosaur
There is a paranoid corner of my brain that can envision an NSG / TW / HWS scum team. But I’d rate that likelihood low.
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Post Post #1274 (isolation #165) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:44 pm

Post by Zoronos »

VOTE: something_smart
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Post Post #1276 (isolation #166) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:49 pm

Post by Zoronos »

If someone else wants to be town mayor, they are welcome to the job, but nobody was doing it and we need to achieve a lynch consensus.
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Post Post #1278 (isolation #167) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:51 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1275, ruru wrote:I'm thinking maybe we shouldn't be pushing lynches until hws/md/tw post

Currently we can just lynch jjh if there's a cc

If one of those three is lined up for a lynch (including for example by PoE if other wagons fail), we can no longer trust a cc
I agree, with the provision that if we don't get a CC we're going to be on the clock to build a consensus, so now is the time to get people talking about reads again in the thread, even if we're not actively building the consensus.
Life is simple if there's a CC. Life is complicated if there isn't. Might as well plan for the hard case and have it go to waste then hope for the easy case then be in trouble if it doesn't happen.
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Post Post #1294 (isolation #168) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:05 pm

Post by Zoronos »

More coloring.
Spoiler: fake VC
Blackstar moved his vote but there wasn't a VC to pick that up, and I'm adding in my intent as a vote while leaving the original in place. So effectively this was the VC state when intent to hammer was claimed. Yes this means Blackstar and I are listed twice, put your thumb over it if it bothers you.
Baring a CC, I'm going to color JJH green for the purposes of this exercise. Obviously this is just my read state, but that's why I'm the one posting it. If you want it to be your read state, you can make pretty colors too.

So here's our pretend lynch:
jjh927
(7):
northsidegal
, the worst, pinturicchio,
ruru
,
Mathdino
,
BlackStar
,
Zoronos

HeWhoSwims
(3): davesaz,
ofrhz
,
BlackStar
,
the worst (2):
HitAlt
,
jjh927
,
Something_Smart (1):
Zoronos


Not Voting: Something_Smart,
HeWhoSwims
,
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Post Post #1298 (isolation #169) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1296, Something_Smart wrote:
In post 1256, Zoronos wrote:Why?
What was this referring to?
In post 1255, Something_Smart wrote:My reads are basically:
HitAlt, the worst, ruru, BlackStar, and Zoronos are bad lynches because I townread them.
jjh is obviously a bad lynch barring a counterclaim.
Mathdino, davesaz and northsidegal are bad lynches because I haven't seen anything especially bad from them and they should be easier to sort later in the game.

I still don't have any scumreads worth anything. But since you're looking for consensus, my preferred lynch would be one of {pintu, HWS, ofrhz}.
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Post Post #1303 (isolation #170) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:37 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1300, Something_Smart wrote:Taking the playerlist and subtracting the people above leaves pintu, HWS, and ofrhz. A group on which I haven't had any feelings strong enough to put them in one of the above categories.
I have a town feeling on ofhrz though I guess that could be wrong but I like it.
I have a town lean on HWS.

So, where does that leave us?
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Post Post #1306 (isolation #171) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:18 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1304, the worst wrote:lynch A50?

I still want jjh or hit
You think JJH is lying about his claim?
I mean, we can talk about Hit if you want.
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Post Post #1315 (isolation #172) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:49 pm

Post by Zoronos »

HitAlt: why should I vote The Worst?
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Post Post #1326 (isolation #173) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:36 pm

Post by Zoronos »

lol.
WELL THEN.
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Post Post #1327 (isolation #174) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:40 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I don't know why I'm posting instead of voting.
I'm just a little in shock that Jailkeeper is the fake claim.
Anyone have further discussion they want to have before I drop the hammer?
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Post Post #1330 (isolation #175) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:41 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Well now I feel stupid.
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Post Post #1331 (isolation #176) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:44 pm

Post by Zoronos »

This game state just doesn’t make sense. It’s an open, why fake claim JK (either of you, we don’t have 2x JK unless I’m massively misunderstanding the setup).
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Post Post #1338 (isolation #177) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:24 pm

Post by Zoronos »

I think it’s best to leave the Math meta-suspicion in the land of WIFOM. Chalk it up as NAI and laugh at him if he tries to leverage it later.
It doesn’t make him scummier, it doesn’t make him townier, it’s just a thing that happened.
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Post Post #1340 (isolation #178) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:30 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Obvious note should be obvious:
If JJH flips jailer then vig should think really hard about leveling if they want to shoot HWS for fake counterclaiming, since scum doc will very likely be on HWS.
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Post Post #1342 (isolation #179) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Post by Zoronos »

Information you have != information I have.
I hope for a bright and shiny world where everything is great and we chain lynch scum, I plan for the world where we don’t.
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Post Post #1345 (isolation #180) » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:43 pm

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1332, ruru wrote:What if the dinosaur is scum and he's going to use the fact that jjh claimed jk to argue that he can't possibly be on the scumteam

Image
Completely offtopic, but I love the :thinking: emote. It's one of my favorites especially when used sarcastically.
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Post Post #1372 (isolation #181) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:27 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1363, northsidegal wrote:give me a few hours please, presuming we have that time and someone'll still be around
I'll be around, just let me know when you're ready and I'll do the hammer thing.
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Post Post #1382 (isolation #182) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:01 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1379, Mathdino wrote:Outside possibility of hws just suicide bombing jjh
You know, I’m still kinda okay with that.
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Post Post #1385 (isolation #183) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:19 am

Post by Zoronos »

I would scold you for hammering when NSG asked for time but I’m lazy.
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Post Post #1396 (isolation #184) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:42 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1394, northsidegal wrote:dynamic duo ended by the way math
Scumsaurus?
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Post Post #1403 (isolation #185) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:48 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1399, ofrhz wrote:The suspense is killing me
Vote counter:
Ofrhz (1): The Suspense
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Post Post #1404 (isolation #186) » Tue Jun 05, 2018 6:57 am

Post by Zoronos »

I have nothing really useful to add here; I haven't done a deep think on associations yet, I still feel reasonably okay about my lynch pool regardless of how the JJH vs HWS shakes out unless somehow JJH flips VT then :psyduck:.
I tried to encode my latent suspicions into the VC near EoD so if anyone needs to check my positions in the event of my death, they're either in the VC or my ISO.

Is there anything material to discuss remaining, or are we all just collectively twilight trolling until the flip?
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Post Post #1428 (isolation #187) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:44 am

Post by Zoronos »

The NKA discussion is not super productive - NSG was basically cleared town for leading the push on JJH. There, good enough, let's move on to finding scum.

Hypo-inno allows him to not claim cop while leaving a result in case he gets shot in the night and is a cop.
For example,
hypo-inno on Ofrhz
-> I am the cop and I checked Ofrhz last night and she's town. Or maybe I'm not the cop. Who knows.

Obvious here if Blackstar is scum he knows Math isn't the cop, and if Ofrhz is scum she knows I'm not the cop. But it leaves Town a result in case one of us the cop and dies N2.

I'm working on some more VC coloration, I'll have that up shortly.
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Post Post #1431 (isolation #188) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:51 am

Post by Zoronos »

Spoiler: Ofrhz 1

ofrhz
(4):
ruru
, Mathdino,
northsidegal
,
BlackStar

BlackStar
(3):
jjh927
, the worst,
ofrhz

the worst (1): HitAlt,
Zoronos
(1): davesaz,
Mathdino (1): pinturicchio,

Not Voting:
HeWhoSwims
,
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos


Spoiler: Ofrhz 2

ofrhz
(4): Mathdino,
northsidegal
,
BlackStar
, the worst,
BlackStar
(2):
jjh927
,
ofrhz

Mathdino (2): pinturicchio, davesaz,
the worst (1): HitAlt,
davesaz (1):
ruru


Not Voting:
HeWhoSwims
,
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos


Spoiler: Ofrhz 3

ofrhz
(4):
northsidegal
,
BlackStar
, the worst,
HeWhoSwims
,
the worst (3): HitAlt,
jjh927
,
ofrhz
,
jjh927
(1): Mathdino,
Mathdino (1): pinturicchio,
ruru
(1): davesaz,
Something_Smart
(1):
ruru
,

Not Voting:
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos


Spoiler: post Ofrhz

the worst (3): HitAlt,
jjh927
, Mathdino,
jjh927
(2):
northsidegal
, the worst,
ofrhz
(2):
BlackStar
,
HeWhoSwims

HeWhoSwims
(2): davesaz,
ofrhz
,
Something_Smart
(1):
ruru
,
davesaz (1): pinturicchio,

Not Voting:
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos


Spoiler: the three way split

the worst (3): HitAlt,
jjh927
, Mathdino,
jjh927
(3):
northsidegal
, the worst, pinturicchio,
HeWhoSwims
(3): davesaz,
ofrhz
,
BlackStar
,
Something_Smart
(1):
ruru
,

Not Voting:
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos
,
HeWhoSwims
,


Spoiler: first momentum shift to JJH

jjh927
(4):
northsidegal
, the worst, pinturicchio,
ruru
,
the worst (3): HitAlt,
jjh927
, Mathdino,
HeWhoSwims
(3): davesaz,
ofrhz
,
BlackStar


Not Voting:
Something_Smart
,
Zoronos
,
HeWhoSwims


Spoiler: pre jailer claim
+ a couple votes not captured on the VC
Jjh927
(6):
northsidegal
, the worst, pinturicchio,
ruru
, Mathdino,
BlackStar
, (+
Zoronos
declaring intent to hammer)
HeWhoSwims
(3): davesaz,
ofrhz
,
BlackStar
,
the worst (2): HitAlt,
jjh927
,
davesaz (1):
Zoronos
,

Not Voting:
Something_Smart
,
HeWhoSwims

Spoiler: post jailer claim

jjh927
(4):
northsidegal
, the worst,
ruru
,
BlackStar
,
the worst (4): HitAlt,
jjh927
,
ofrhz
, Mathdino,
Something_Smart
(2): pinturicchio,
Zoronos
,
HeWhoSwims
(1): davesaz,

Not Voting:
Something_Smart
HeWhoSwims


Blue is flipped town / un CC'ed town.
Green is my reads / results.
Red is flipped scum.
Black is ????.
I've demoted a couple town reads back to ??? territory, so some re-sort is in order.
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Post Post #1432 (isolation #189) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:52 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1430, Mathdino wrote:come gather round people
wherever ya roam
and admit that the waters around you have grown

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings
priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=51&t=76359
playerList=northsidegal{nsg},Mathdino{md},HeWhoSwims,pinturicchio,ofrhz,ruru,the worst{duck},jjh927,Zoronos,davesaz,BlackStar,Something_Smart,HitAlt
replacementList=
moderatorNames=Almost50
dayStartNumbers=2,1415
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-06-21 14:30:00 -6.00
deadList=northsidegal-1,Something_Smart-1
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]
How do I use this?
Because if I can use this to do magic it would save me a lot of time.
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Post Post #1443 (isolation #190) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:09 am

Post by Zoronos »

The post-claim wagon is useless, imo, since it heavily reflects who was present in the thread and not who was scum reading JJH.
No cred for being on a train driven entirely be counter-claiming-HWS.

I am more suspicious of the people that said 'I don't trust that claim' when JJH claimed JK than the people that piled back on after HWS countered. Town players have no specific reason to distrust the claim, whereas scum already know it's BS and are expecting the counter.
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Post Post #1444 (isolation #191) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:10 am

Post by Zoronos »

Sorry, that was @Math.
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Post Post #1464 (isolation #192) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:46 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1450, BlackStar wrote:
In post 1443, Zoronos wrote:The post-claim wagon is useless, imo, since it heavily reflects who was present in the thread and not who was scum reading JJH.
No cred for being on a train driven entirely be counter-claiming-HWS.

I am more suspicious of the people that said 'I don't trust that claim' when JJH claimed JK
than the people that piled back on after HWS countered. Town players have no specific reason to distrust the claim, whereas scum already know it's BS and are expecting the counter.
Do you remember who said that?
Of course I do:
In post 1304, the worst wrote:lynch A50?

I still want jjh or hit
In post 1281, Mathdino wrote:Oh fucking lol I misses the claim
I don't believe it because I'm pretty sure that's what scum would do
But I don't cc
VOTE: the worst
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Post Post #1468 (isolation #193) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:50 am

Post by Zoronos »

I'm suddenly suffering from meta overdose.
zzzz self meta meta-this-meta-that zzz.
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Post Post #1473 (isolation #194) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:54 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1470, the worst wrote:
In post 1468, Zoronos wrote:I'm suddenly suffering from meta overdose.
zzzz self meta meta-this-meta-that zzz.
your meta suggests meta overdose makes you a serial killer :lol:
It does? Sweet!
I've never been an SK before.
Pew pew I shoot davesaz for voting me yesterday pew pew.
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Post Post #1476 (isolation #195) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:08 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1462, the worst wrote:
Every mention of Dave jjh made in this post

this actually doesn't feel as partnery
In post 1463, the worst wrote:oh. right, good vote.
VOTE: davesaz
????

Doesn't feel partnery -> votes.
I feel a little lost here.
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Post Post #1488 (isolation #196) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:31 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1486, Mathdino wrote:That's the towniest post pintu's made all game actually.
What, how is that a towny post? It's a nonsense non-contribution.
It generates no read and no actionable information while looking like he did work.

HitAlt: Was the worst bussing yesterday on JJH, even though he was the second vote? And was JJH counter-busing him (being the second vote after you)?
Why / why not?
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Post Post #1490 (isolation #197) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:33 am

Post by Zoronos »

Hey Pintu:
Who is the scum and why?
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Post Post #1495 (isolation #198) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:40 am

Post by Zoronos »

Pintu: Not all posts need to generate reads. Sometimes you do work and go "well, no result" and that's fine. But that's an NAI post, not a towny one. My problem isn't with your originating post; I felt it was NAI because it could be town going 'welp no result better luck next time' or scum trying to blend in. I, as town, evaluated both probabilities. I find Math's response incongruous because he didn't seem to be weighing the 'Maybe that's scum Pintu trying to active lurk' angle.
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Post Post #1497 (isolation #199) » Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:41 am

Post by Zoronos »

In post 1491, Mathdino wrote:I didn't say it was pro-town. It's probably anti-town, but that doesn't matter. It's just town-indicative. That kind of thing is outside pintu's scumrange.
Why is it town indicative?
I think it's NAI at best. I can easily see it being a portion of an active lurk strategy.
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