Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Reality Check]

Good morning!

VOTE: the worst

[Reality Check]

VOTE: Reality Check

I love that kitty!!!!

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Very fascinating.

[Reality Check]

This Reality Check wagon looks righteous to me!

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Oh

Trusting me is usually a bad idea

I should've mentioned that first.

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I don't think signing should be strictly necessary most of the time, both of us have very different speaking styles.

Buuuuuut if I make a longer post or use more 'formal' language or similar, I'll sign.

[Reality Check]

thank you <3
nice to play with you again
both of you actually

<3

Oh

Trusting me is usually a bad idea

I should've mentioned that first.

uh oh

have not expected you to betray my trust like that, what now?

The only solution is to vote me.

wait...

[Reality Check]

aw

You're leaving me out to dry already?

[Reality Check]

oh, okay

This worst wagon is also righteous anyways so I'm not complaining too hard.

[Reality Check]

aw

You're leaving me out to dry already?

this looks scummy

-oink

Does it just look scummy or is it actually scummy?

[Reality Check]

Out of hydra Ego post.

I'm gonna tell a joke. (Which'll continue on said hydra.)

Knock, knock.

[Reality Check]

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

(both these posts are Ank btw)

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Who's there

Eventually, you.

...Okay, that's probably not the funniest of jokes. Let me try again.

Knock, knock.

[Reality Check]

Who's there?

I'd say the whole neighborhood.

...No?

Okay, one final go then.

Knock, knock.

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worst

where is your head at right now?

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well... ok, I guess that's fair

how about views on the gamestate

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I'll let mastina judge AA9's softclaim, she's far better at that sort of thing than I am.

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Sajj seems like newer town to me at a quick glance

More will have to wait until I run through the game and get my thoughts down, but that will be a while from now since I want at least ten pages before committing to that.

[Reality Check]

Who's there?

I'd say the whole neighborhood.

...No?

Okay, one final go then.

Knock, knock.

who's there?

...Where?
I've been keeping my eye out for him, but I'm pretty sure he doesn't play mafia anymore......

[Reality Check]

Hi

What is labryinth

I wish the goblins would come and take you away right now.

Town.

VOTE: Shoshin

bruuuuuuh
im so stoned rn

Town?

hi
who's the biggest wagon?

Scum?

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: Reality Check

Scum.

[Reality Check]

yo

Town.

It's a page 2 vote on two sentences of material, it's not exactly like I did detailed analysis. Looking back at it, it feels like it's trying to seem extra casual about the RVS votes. The OMGUS on Wheme looks worse, so #24's less relevant anyway.

Town?

I'll let mastina judge AA9's softclaim, she's far better at that sort of thing than I am.

For the record overall would have to have her as 'Town?', but would prefer more to place her there especially since I'm coming up one scum short.

Then again, most players haven't posted yet, so.

[Reality Check]

NOT CROSSREFERENCED WITH HYDRA PARTNER:

WhemeStar
NicoRobin
TPFKAP
Joral
Princess of Renais
TehBrawlGuy
ArcAngel9
Nancy Drew 39
Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly)
Riku
Scioness Sajj
The Worst
Shoshin

Something like this.

[Reality Check]

still there?

Prolly not, no. Signing off of the account actually.

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This head's logging off for the night too.

I might start analyzing tomorrow even if things don't immediately pick up, but it probably won't net much until more comes out.

Good night!

[Reality Check]

hi

Any questions for the Ank-head?

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I think I managed to make our signature visible.

Test?

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yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

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the worst, what's your read on Reality? any reason I'm wrong about them?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Can you unpack this for me? This is a very interesting statement considering only one head has analyzed anything so far. I only have a couple reads right now.

[Reality Check]

TBC honestly. there isn't enough content to have a firm read either way.
but first impressions, they're obviously not swaying to anyone else's thinking which is faintly town-scented.

That's definitely null for this head and likely null for the other head too.

[Reality Check]

TALY

Ank-head killed you in Corpse party, but otherwise we've never played before.
Mastina-head, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing your experience with her is pretty low if you have that response to her RVS reads

My vote on Reality wasn't "random." 67 is scummy, and Reality ignored my question about it.

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

(both these posts are Ank btw)

I missed it, actually.

Tone is more indicative of confidence than anything else for me; #67 is me saying that I'm not convinced that Joral is scum based on the posts he's made so far, but he's far enough into my playstyle blindspot as well as not looking particularly town, so that initial opinion is subject to change once more information comes by.

(Ank-head posting)

[Reality Check]

I don't

really

think Joral is scum

tbh

I bolded some of the language that pinged me. At this point, it made no sense from a town perspective to hesitantly defend Joral - literally none - and language like "really" and "tbh" suggests that Reality don't believe what they're saying themselves. And when questioned about it, Reality completely ignored me... So I'm happy with where my vote is.

Tone is more indicative of confidence than anything else for me; #67 is me saying that I'm not convinced that Joral is scum based on the posts he's made so far, but he's far enough into my playstyle blindspot as well as not looking particularly town, so that initial opinion is subject to change once more information comes by.

This should be a bit less confusing

[Reality Check]

Still reading Wheme as strong town, Reality?

Both of us have independent townreads on Wheme, but I think mastina's is stronger than mine is.

[Reality Check]

Good morning everyone!

Anyone interested in talking reads? I have fewer strong reads than I'd like after catching up.

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Oh right, I'm supposed to be passive.

Oops!

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Well, nobody has posted except you and Sajj since then, so...

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What do you mean by changed? I had close to none before then.

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Alright, I've had enough fun with that.

Mastina was the one that posted reads, I've had about 2-3 before then (including the Joral read mentioned earlier).

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It's dead null, joral.

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eh, you'll get into it over time.

What are your strongish reads right now?

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hm...

Most of those are different from my own reads, sadly. The only scumread we agree on is Scioness Sajj, despite the fact that I have five other scumreads.

I'm in the middle of hashing out the differences in mastina's and my reads though, so this could change.

[Reality Check]

A likely story, Varsoon

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Ok jokes aside, I'd like to see what the lol was about too.

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Hey Taly, where you at? I want to know where your head is roughly.

[Reality Check]

Hey Taly, where you at? I want to know where your head is roughly.

> tgkfap

looks like an even tastier wagon.

(Weak scumread, but strongest so far)

>

Worried that

Creature

has not displayed what I know of his town-meta.

> Wheme

is antitown, or at least appears that way in light of pushing things without stating too much of why.

(???)

>

Didn't and still don't like

Joral's

wagon and I think he's the most forthcoming person in the game; well-reasoned thoughts, does not hold back on his thinking, and with this combined that I'm voting someone that has their vote on him - unless I missed something - I'm really happy with saying this is town.

(Strong Town)

> Renai

is openly useless.

(Null, leanscum)

>

Who are

riku

and

shoshin

again?

>

Going to take a bit before I settle on

the worst

, but I get townvibes there because of their train-of-consciousness posts that have interest in progressing the game in favor of gamesolving.

(Town)

These are the biggest things coming to mind at the moment for thoughts.

You feel genuine.

~ Taly

I agree on Joral and TGK. Disagree on the worst and Wheme.

What do you think of Sajj?

[Reality Check]

Ok jokes aside, I'd like to see what the lol was about too.

Mastina, Please tell me you're town here!!!

haha joke's on you

I wrote that, not mastina

[Reality Check]

I'm going to pretend the last half page of posts don't exist so I won't deeply question and criticize the mafia ability of some players in this game.

tgkfap

is borderline scumclaiming with how poor their posts have been, and LITERALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS

VARSOON

WHEN I'VE DONE ALL THE POSTING.

Also how the fuck would I be defending

Shoshin

? Love the dichotomies you're making though, if for god knows what reason that you're town - scum must love that you don't have a moving wagon on you. I'm much more forward and direct with my stances, boo.

Really doubting that this is

Creature's

towngame. His only gamesolving-centered post so far has been 334 and it literally comes to no conclusion at all.

Shoshin

, why is

Sajj

scum to you, again? And if you think

the worst

is scum off of townreading

Sajj

, then why are you dropping your attention off of her in pursuit of him? 350

I already said I thought

Sajj

was lean-town 312 - is that scum-indicative to you?

Oh look,

Renais

finally made commentary. 338, why is

Creature and tgkfap

town to you?

Pushing

the worst

is the worst thing you could possibly do right now because he's near locktown solely due to his sensibility being higher than most of the playerlist's right now.

And no, I didn't recognize the pun until after I typed the sentence LOL

~ Taly

Taly, effort is not alignment indicative.

Scum can be low effort and coast, town can be low effort and just not really care.
Scum can be high effort and try to pocket people, town can be high effort and try hard to gamesolve.

All of these possibilities are realistic in every game played on the site, the difference is HOW they're going about it and whether how they're going about their play is indicative of a scum mindset or not.

(Ank-post)

[Reality Check]

the worst, why is Sajj town?

there is madness in my method

Can you answer my question?

not here nah
she's very transparently town, I'm a bit worried you don't see it

You're going to have to explain this one to me, my friend.

[Reality Check]

So..... Don't have townreads because they could be scum and don't have scumreaes because they could be town

Fuck it let's just random lynch ^~^

VOTE: the worst

[Reality Check]

The purpose of it was exactly what I said in that post, that effort by itself is NAI.

Why did you feel the need to misrep it into me saying you shouldn't have reads?

[Reality Check]

Because it's a way of reading people that isn't effective longer term? That's a reach out to Taly for him to restructure how he's getting reads because I'm seeing a lot of townreads for effort and scumreads for lack of effort, which is fine for getting people to contribute more, but significantly less accurate when you're trying to lynch actual scum.

[Reality Check]

At what point have I made reads and thought OR even gave the impression that:

"Yay! I'm just going to slap a read on this person because they're TRYING."

If people read my posts consistently, I'm not just basing my thoughts off surface level shit that has no relevance; I genuinely do perceive my scumreads by coming from a scum mentality and that's not SPECIFICALLY rooted in their level of effort or amount they're posting.

And honestly, even if it weren't - that's more of a reason than what quite a few people are giving, but nobody talks about that.

This

the worst

wagon is atrocious and I'll respond in a more tactful and factually based manner when I'm not going to potentially fill the thread with rage caps AND ALSO IF people want to actually engage with my reads.

~ Taly

These are the impressions I got this from, plus I got a very similar feeling from your very first post in this thread.

tgkfap

is borderline scumclaiming with how poor their posts have been, and LITERALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS

VARSOON

WHEN I'VE DONE ALL THE POSTING.

Really doubting that this is

Creature's

towngame. His only gamesolving-centered post so far has been 334 and it literally comes to no conclusion at all.

Pushing

the worst

is the worst thing you could possibly do right now because he's near locktown solely due to his sensibility being higher than most of the playerlist's right now.

[Reality Check]

worst

Why does your tone feel really really off this game?

[Reality Check]

I think I'd have to mindmeld with mastina about that, but you were pinging me even before that. This latest engagement is only the latest example.

[Reality Check]

Taly

I don't scumread you, I actually townread you

I want you on a page where I feel like I can WORK with you, but I don't think that's viable right now since... well, that's the impression I've been getting from your reads.

If that's not actually true, then fine, I'll stop engaging until I directly see it and try again afterwards.

[Reality Check]

because I don't think you've played with me actually giving a fuck about a game yet

this is improtat btw Anka

What was your play in the first several pages of the game?

[Reality Check]

your responses to Taly include nothing but armchair scumhunting logic and a clear lack of actually reading his posts critically.

Please explain specifically where you disagree with him

No point now, tbh

I'll just watch him from the background and see if his reads look better over time.

[Reality Check]

Spoiler:

At what point have I made reads and thought OR even gave the impression that:

"Yay! I'm just going to slap a read on this person because they're TRYING."

If people read my posts consistently, I'm not just basing my thoughts off surface level shit that has no relevance; I genuinely do perceive my scumreads by coming from a scum mentality and that's not SPECIFICALLY rooted in their level of effort or amount they're posting.

And honestly, even if it weren't - that's more of a reason than what quite a few people are giving, but nobody talks about that.

This

the worst

wagon is atrocious and I'll respond in a more tactful and factually based manner when I'm not going to potentially fill the thread with rage caps AND ALSO IF people want to actually engage with my reads.

~ Taly

These are the impressions I got this from, plus I got a very similar feeling from your very first post in this thread.

tgkfap

is borderline scumclaiming with how poor their posts have been, and LITERALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS

VARSOON

WHEN I'VE DONE ALL THE POSTING.

Really doubting that this is

Creature's

towngame. His only gamesolving-centered post so far has been 334 and it literally comes to no conclusion at all.

Pushing

the worst

is the worst thing you could possibly do right now because he's near locktown solely due to his sensibility being higher than most of the playerlist's right now.

What's wrong with this?

[Reality Check]

tbh there are signs of a scum!mastina setup already and the fact you can't logically explain yourself when you're normally too logical to be reasonable..........

if I had a dayvig rn lol

pedit: are those contrary?

Anka

the worst

there is no world where you know me well enough to correctly

tone

logic

read me as scum.

[Reality Check]

btw

I get pushbacked for shit like this in just about every game I play, regardless of alignment. You literally just happened to catch me in the only game that I was almost completely DEAD ON CORRECT for most of the game. If anything, that game is exactly how not to read me.

[Reality Check]

Actually, scratch that second part. I got pushback for shit plenty in that game too, and I was 100% obvtown.

[Reality Check]

what logic is there to read? you're squirming

what? your PoE that game had
exactly
one
scum
in it

Thats why i assumed your shoddy logic earlier was badtown and not scum motivated

I caught Kokichi when everyone was townreading him and my initial scumread on brass was almost universally scorned despite actually being correct. I never once townread either slot afterwards, and the only reason I never caught the third scum is because I wanted to stay far away from the vengekill claim to avoid outing my own vengekill. If that edge case hadn't happened, I likely would have figured them out as scum too.

[Reality Check]

Anka is normally excruciatingly logical and communicative. The fact she is using armchair scumhunting and distancing herself from actually communicating on anything AI is an extremely serious alarm bell in my books.

I'm getting really sick of explaining this, but I'll do it again.

Necromancer is NOT a good game to meta me from.
I immediately caught on to how scum were playing the game and caught two scum immediately.
I KNEW I was on a good track that game because the way the game progressed made sense with the model I had in my head.
I know that the moment I die, I get a vigkill.
Town is letting scum walk all over them when I replace in.

The reason I specifically played the way I did should be blatantly obvious from there. I wanted to obvtown very hard. I wanted to build a townblock. I wanted to look dangerous SO I WOULD BE NIGHTKILLED AND GET A FREE KILL.

THAT IS NOT HOW I USUALLY PLAY THE GAME.

[Reality Check]

No, I'm aborting this engagement until mastina can weigh in.

[Reality Check]

Fine... do that... I've already said my peace and clearly, like with multiple other things I've said in this game, it seems to just have no effect on anything.

but I'm hard-townreading

the worst

at this point and my stances have strengthened.

~ Taly

That's me like every time I try to work with people in any game

[Reality Check]

worst

Why does your tone feel really really off this game?

So are you!! Why are you not town mastina?

mastina actually hasn't posted in the thread since this post.

[Reality Check]

Do you have any other slots sorted atm Nancy?

[Reality Check]

Good night, RC

[Reality Check]

Creature

Did you townread my posts or mastina's posts?

[Reality Check]

good morning

[Reality Check]

KAP I think you're thinking too hard about something that can't be deciphered

[Reality Check]

it's a mid-page 1 post

[Reality Check]

it's a mid-page 1 post

I'm sorry that you can't find scum there, but I can.

you're right

[Reality Check]

hey

hold this head to getting stuff out today
I need to get back into here since I was lazy all day yesterday

[Reality Check]

random

just don't

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so what does tbg's flip mean

[Reality Check]

hi ankhead is starting to tryhard

VOTE: Shoshin

[Reality Check]

iirc mastina's old reads had this as a scumread too so this shouldn't be discounted too heavily unless she has independent issues with what I've posted in the hydra pt

[Reality Check]

well

It's a huge risky ploy for scum to be making

So I don't think we need to worry about it

[Reality Check]

hi ankhead is starting to tryhard

VOTE: Shoshin

I’m pretty sure she’s town, based on a few interactions we had. In fact, she’s one of my top town atm.

I'm only on page 10 or so still on my recatchup. I don't expect my read to change unless her posting gets significantly better

[Reality Check]

AA9 is scum #2

[Reality Check]

{RandomMidget, Princess of Renais, Creature}

remaining two scum are in there

Shoshin + ArcAngel9 + two of {RandomMidget/Princess of Renais/Creature}

[Reality Check]

I did a thing

do I get a cookie now

[Reality Check]

the overwhelming majority on creature wagon does seem pretty weird if he's town tbh

i still don't understand why tpfkap/renais lynch aren't on the table and why this playerlist is completely OK with the level of bullshit in the thread. realtalk if it continues to be this awful I might just /out

this is probably why tbg died

[Reality Check]

care to elaborate? espec on first 2

I want to see what mastina thinks first tbh

[Reality Check]

first + second

[Reality Check]

care to elaborate? espec on first 2

I want to see what mastina thinks first tbh

all due respect but Mastina's rep for townplay is pretty jank atm and your rep for townplay is currently very good

Can we get your initial thoughts first and then have a better chat once you've calibrated with Mastina?

well

the main problem that I ran into when I went into this is that I eventually hit a point where I was suddenly very uncertain that I was setting my baseline expectations in the right place; I think my reads are generally sound for where I'm at (roughly page 12-13) if my understanding of the underground action is accurate.

the issue with that is if I'm understanding it wrong, then my reads in the PoE list are probably wrong (townread baseline much less likely).

[Reality Check]

basically

I went from the assumption that the underground was all town and that Nico + Nancy are both town.

Most of them make a lot of sense as town under that spotlight, as do joral and to a lesser extent, Vartsun. A bit lesser than that, TGPKAP.

Shoshin makes the most sense as scum in that scenario, followed a bit distantly by AA9. The rest are PoE from there.

[Reality Check]

(this means that even with the possibility that my assumptions for the underground being all town are wrong on a base level, it's still likely it was all town because the gamestate makes more sense with it)

[Reality Check]

all due respect but Mastina's rep for townplay is pretty jank atm and your rep for townplay is currently very good

don't say that

I don't want to start getting randomly-nightkilled-because-lolank again

that phase was awful

[Reality Check]

the overwhelming majority on creature wagon does seem pretty weird if he's town tbh

i still don't understand why tpfkap/renais lynch aren't on the table and why this playerlist is completely OK with the level of bullshit in the thread. realtalk if it continues to be this awful I might just /out

this is probably why tbg died

So, why are you so sure that TPKAF isn’t scum then? This quote could theoretically implicate any one of them, if that’s your reasoning for his death. I do remember that Sag’s vote had Creature at L-2 before they got involuntarily descended to the underground. Also, the number one Creature scumreader was Vartsun. not TBG.

However if Creature fails to continue to produce any meaningful reads, I’ll have no problem lynching there.

I'm saying that it makes sense with how I'm viewing the game because that means two scum are under his fire here. This makes it more likely to be Creature + Renais

[Reality Check]

I don't think negative utility crumbs necessarily means anything, it could be a fake posting restriction to make a blatantly scum action otherwise look town.

Oh I forgot about Wheme; he's somewhere between Vartsun and TGPKAP.

[Reality Check]

Where is Taly

That slot hasn't posted for a week

[Reality Check]

TPF will probably obvtown over time

I'd prefer attention on Shoshin tbh

[Reality Check]

It's far better to work around weaktown or useless town than worry about it

Even if they're scum, just lynch all their buddies.

Even if all scum are among the useless players, that will be really obvious really quick, and I don't get that sense here.

[Reality Check]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

[Reality Check]

I can go into theory more if anyone wants to engage it, but I don't think scum lynches are necessarily good for town.

[Reality Check]

Spoiler: Playerlist

The Worst
Nancy Drew 39
Scioness Sajj
Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly)
TehBrawlGuy
Reality Check (Ank/Mastina)
Shoshin
NicoRobin
Riku
TPFKAP
Princess of Renais
Creature
WhemeStar
ArcAngel9
Joral

Let me make my point this way:

the worst is mostly scary because he holds towns together (which makes him a priority NK if a situation like multiple competent towns that can't work together normally are in the game). I don't know about his reads personally, but his read accurate probably isn't quite on par if I had to guess.
Nancy Drew 39 I wouldn't be afraid of.
Scioness Sajj I don't believe I'd be afraid of.
Vartsun... I don't think I'd be very afraid of. I played once with Taly and NKed him night one, but that was a gamestate where a scumlynch

was far better for scum than town

, so it wasn't a fearkill. If Varsoon was playing, idk. I've only ever seen him as scum, I think.
TehBrawlGuy I've only ever seen as scum before. I could see him being scary as town, though.
Reality Check... depends. Some games this is probably the highest priority NK by far, others we're probably useless.
Shoshin is probably the scariest out of the people I've never played with, but it would depend on roughly how good their reads usually are across several games.
NicoRobin I'm never afraid of. Ever.
randommidget I don't think I'd be afraid of.
TPFKAP I wouldn't be afraid of.
Princess of Renais depends on the main, but the play here right now isn't something I'd be afraid of.
Creature I'd be somewhat afraid of. The problem is more he can't ever get his reads lynched.
WhemeStar I don't think I'd be afraid of.
ArcAngel9 I don't believe I'd be afraid of, but I could be wrong on this.
Joral I wouldn't be afraid of.

This all naturally has bias towards my own particular style and doesn't necessarily apply to anyone else, but it does somewhat paint a picture that this playerlist could be one that becomes lost if the game isn't significantly advanced forward within a few days.

That's why while I believe everyone that Creature is probably scum this game due to meta (I don't personally look to that myself, I just sheep on it), I don't believe lynching him this early is necessarily pro-town.

(these are all Ankposts if that's not clear)

[Reality Check]

Also just to make this point clear

This means that the no lynch day one could easily have lost town the game already if my views on that are accurate to this game.

It's entirely possible we have a timer going and a limited amount of players able to catch any or multiple scum.

Creature sure as hell doesn't fall under that umbrella. He never lives to endgame in this gamestate, so lynching him isn't always a positive idea.

[Reality Check]

I'm more glad you have that role because now scum can't just kill all the most competent slots and be done with it because they have to get rid of you too.

[Reality Check]

only if you make good investigates

speaking of which, don't ever investigate this slot

if we weren't already a mid-high priority NK, that would jump us straight to the top and that's outright TERRIBLE for town

(this slot will be obvtown eventually anyways)

[Reality Check]

ank-head is far more likely to be caught by play than mastina-head

fear as scum for me is more resistance to being manipulated effectively

[Reality Check]

(this slot will be obvtown eventually anyways)

this is really important to my point, btw

either we get investigated and become obvtown immediately, which means we're pretty much guaranteed to die the next night

...or we only die after we become obvtown by play, which means we get more time to cause a lot of damage to the scumteam

[Reality Check]

and when you get back a town result

you'll understand that you've lowered town's chances of winning by wasting your investigate on us

[Reality Check]

tbh that probably means we're dead tonight anyways

sigh

idk how I managed to do that

[Reality Check]

mastina's presence has been minimal

[Reality Check]

I didn't tell you not to investigate us because we're town

I told you not to investigate us because it's bad for town

[Reality Check]

slots like Renais/TPFKAP are better investigates

partially because they're hard to read

but also partially because then everyone will shut up about them if they turn up town

[Reality Check]

mastina's presence has been minimal

fuck my life

[Reality Check]

..?

You said my slot is hard to read because my other head is hard to read

I said that my other head hasn't been around

[Reality Check]

do you see the point I'm making though

[Reality Check]

yes, I'm saying you're looking at it from the wrong perspective, although that's understandable since I doubt you have seen mastina and myself in the same game before

the thing is, my strength revolves around how accurate a read I have on the gamestate and how scum are manipulating it; that's really all it takes for it to be close to inevitable that I'll have every scum caught.

mastina has seen this in effect, multiple times (even if it's rare I last long enough to see it through). When she sees I've hit that point,

she follows me and builds off of it

because every single time this has happened, town has been far better off for it.

so

if I'm on that track, then odds are good that I'll be consistently posting a lot throughout the rest of the game. It will be obvious this slot is town because our dynamic doesn't make any sense as scum

even if you believe we're scum, you'd have to consider what our plan is and whether it makes any sense with what's happening, because I guarantee that any scumteam in this playerlist with us in it either leads the whole group altogether or has a huge hand in it.

[Reality Check]

one thing I want to note as well even though I doubt it matters

this head doesn't kill TBG night 1

[Reality Check]

random

just don't

[Reality Check]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

[Reality Check]

sigh

worst can you comment on why investigating this slot is a bad idea

[Reality Check]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

It's bad that you're defending Creature based on really scummy logic ("let's lynch the player that gives us more information instead of the player most likely to flip scum who we're going to lynch anyway at some point").

We could argue theory all you want but in actual practice scum push this type of logic much more often than town because at bottom it benefits scum much more often than town.

lol

VOTE: Shoshin

[Reality Check]

that's not a rebuttal

that's a discredit

[Reality Check]

I'm pretty certain my vote was already there

but if anyone needed any more convincing that Shoshin is scum

that post is it

[Reality Check]

It's a terrible vote. Hilariously bad. Like, here I am trying to figure things out, trying to get us all to start discussing our reads, offering some pretty thoughtful analysis on Random, arguing against the idiotic idea of lynching for information instead of lynching scum, and somehow I'm scum here? And it's a good vote? What the fuck, the worst?

did you read the rest of my analysis relating to that or...?

[Reality Check]

or I could show you what happened in corpse party after I sacrificed one of my partners

how lynching scum lost town the game

or I could point you to the recently completed turn of camn game, which had three back to back scumlynches the first three days followed by town lynches until an endgame

I could probably find dozens of more examples for how scumlynches were bad for the game

information is much better

a scum lynch that has support and also gives a ton of information is by far the best possible choice for a lynch even if another slot is obvscum

creature is not that, he's a scum lynch that has support and doesn't give information beyond that

U N T I L - A N O T H E R - S C U M - F L I P S

I've also gone into why I don't believe this particular playerlist is likely to be able to come together and both catch and lynch all the scum after a few days if there aren't already a lot of information to work from out there

so...

???

[Reality Check]

It's a terrible vote. Hilariously bad. Like, here I am trying to figure things out, trying to get us all to start discussing our reads, offering some pretty thoughtful analysis on Random, arguing against the idiotic idea of lynching for information instead of lynching scum, and somehow I'm scum here? And it's a good vote? What the fuck, the worst?

did you read the rest of my analysis relating to that or...?

I didn't see any analysis... only a "lol" and a later post stating that my post was a "discredit" rather than a "rebuttal," which is sort of odd since I didn't say you're an "incompetent townie" anywhere, I said the logic you're pushing is more likely to benefit scum and more likely to come from scum.

[Reality Check]

or I could point you to the recently completed turn of camn game, which had three back to back scumlynches the first three days followed by town lynches until an endgame

this was literally bc Elli caught 3/4 scum
town got cocky
town here is on the back foot, NOT cocky. we need a red flip.

that's fair

but

you have 4 scum, all of which have an interest in staying alive or helping their team stay alive
you have one scum who has an interest in staying alive

which is easier to catch

I really need to stop checking this game on my main

[Reality Check]

That's why while I believe everyone that Creature is probably scum this game due to meta (I don't personally look to that myself, I just sheep on it), I don't believe lynching him this early is necessarily pro-town.

If he flips scum PR that puts his buddies at awkwardly defending him d1

If he doesn't it gives us leads

How is it better to roll the dice outside of Creature?

the game is role madness, every scum is a PR

[Reality Check]

tomorrow?

[Reality Check]

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did. I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes. As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day. Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

jesus

alright I'll pick this apart and respond to this piece by piece

[Reality Check]

tomorrow?

if that's at me i don't understand

it's day two today, RC just never switched the title

[Reality Check]

alright I'll pick this apart and respond to this piece by piece

I'm not reading your response.

cool then I can just make a case for why you're scum for it instead

[Reality Check]

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

Okay, here's the thing:

Town wins by lynching the entire scumteam. Individual lynches don't matter outside of the direct impact it has towards this goal. The primary way to get accurate lynches is information. Therefore, the way town wins the game is by increasing the information per day higher than the amount needed to catch all the scum. Player skill also plays into this in the sense that as player skill as town goes up, the information they need to catch scum goes down. As player skill as scum goes up, the more information is needed to catch them.

Creature is a low information lynch in that it gives us

some

information about the setup, but it's low on information because scum had to have gone into the game already knowing he'd be caught immediately, so it's highly likely that him being caught is planned.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did.

which is why the top three posters were sent away from the thread for day one, which... surprise surprise, includes this slot and the worst! By this logic, you should also be townreading Sajj + the worst since they were heavily pushing Creature.

I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes.

including sending the two people you're calling incompetent town or scum and a third you're trying to get a read on

As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day.

scum can manipulate scum lynches

I've done that before. I also got heavily townread for it, which carried me to the end of the game after I killed everybody who could reasonably solve the game and catch me

also, Creature isn't manipulating shit

if we get the impression that roles are actively having a huge impact against town, then yes he's a very good lynch, because at that point, then the information about the setup becomes a lot more valuable

Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

I'll gladly lynch a town today if it nets two scum lynches day 3 and 4

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

so... basically you're agreeing with me that town is unlikely to come together

which is why I want to increase the odds that town is going to individually reach the same conclusion that scum is scum rather than just get scum lynches now

there's a such thing as a game over that takes multiple days to realize it's game over

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

no

you're getting lynched

[Reality Check]

the baby with power can convince others to lynch there if they're scum.

Given Reality's earlier scumread on Random, but now voting me for dumb reasons while ignoring my analysis on Random, it's probably a good idea to check Reality. The Worst calling their vote good is also concerning, as well as the way he's dodging my questions and making it impossible for us to work together and intentionally making me more and more paranoid of him in a game where the town desperately needs to be coming together, not creating needless rifts.

you mean the part where I called you and ArcAngel9 scum

and had randommidget as one of three slots to fill the other two scumslots

[Reality Check]

but
creature first [:

I will only accept this if you hang Shoshin tomorrow

[Reality Check]

the N2 kill would do a lot more for my reads and view on the gamestate than a creature scumflip would

[Reality Check]

re: first point of 1096, we can see who looked like they were expecting creature to get caught no?

that's hard

scum can either 'catch' him themselves, wait until he gets caught and pretend to have 'caught' him before that, or just not comment at all

or really anything

if there's scum intent there, it's probably subtle

[Reality Check]

that is quite possibly the best way to throw the game I've ever seen

[Reality Check]

then YOU convince her

you saw me in necromancer, you know I'm not a shit town player

you also have the worst saying it's a terrible idea to investigate me

[Reality Check]

Nico

You understand that scum will take any opportunity to lynch a competent town when given an ultimatum like that? If the day ends with that, you would die regardless of our alignment

That's proscum regardless of our alignment

[Reality Check]

That ultimatum doesn't work unless it traps scum whether it triggers or not

That is protown if we are scum and is absolutely horrible when we are town

[Reality Check]

Oh, and also, if Shoshin flips town, then by your definition of gamethrowing, you'd be doing exactly that by lynching town. You could say you have no way of knowing he is town, but here is the thing: I have no way of knowing you are town either.

What?

You'd be gamethrowing because you'd be causing the lynch of a competent town that will be sorted without an investigate

[Reality Check]

And again, I have no way of knowing you are town without my inv.

Or are you saying I can see your role PM/read your mind?

by this logic, you can't know if anybody is town without copping them

that's what reads are for!

and guess what

there are multiple people that can read me here!

[Reality Check]

only if you make good investigates

speaking of which, don't ever investigate this slot

if we weren't already a mid-high priority NK, that would jump us straight to the top and that's outright TERRIBLE for town

(this slot will be obvtown eventually anyways)

Are you assuming that they can check role as well as alignment? because otherwise, this makes no sense. Actually it really doesn’t make sense either way tbh.

See, I could say the exact same thing because it logically is a waste of time in my case but I would never ever say, this would boost me to the top and that would be bad for town. It’s obviously bad for any

widely townread

player to be NKed. I would also add the worst and Vartsun to this category: waste of time to investigate - for obvious reasons.

what?

you literally saw me SHOW why it's a bad idea; I'm a competent town that can catch scum and sway town to lynch them while being blatantly obvtown in the process

I also just finished another game where I basically hard-carried town by catching scum and swaying town to lynch them while being blatantly obvtown in the process

why would you need a mechanical clear to accurately read this slot?

[Reality Check]

And again, I have no way of knowing you are town without my inv.

Or are you saying I can see your role PM/read your mind?

by this logic, you can't know if anybody is town without copping them

that's what reads are for!

and guess what

there are multiple people that can read me here!

People are also saying they can lynch you down the line, which I know is impossible from my xp with mastina.

mastina taking over the slot has been outed as a scumclaim

that's not going to work

[Reality Check]

slots like Renais/TPFKAP are better investigates

partially because they're hard to read

but also partially because then everyone will shut up about them if they turn up town

If I were cop, I’d probably investigate players higher up on the food chain, like Angel, Wheme, randomidget or Joral but my preference would be Shoshin, in order to clear her once and for all. I strongly believe she is mislynchbait and am adamantly opposed to any votes on her.

if that's what it takes to get Sho-scum lynched, then go for it.

[Reality Check]

welp

I'm getting more confident that I'm on the right track after that AA9 post

[Reality Check]

mm cake

pagetop!

[Reality Check]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

I'm mad

[Reality Check]

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

well yeah

that's not the underlying reason she's scum, but it's a damn big indicator

[Reality Check]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

A

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

B

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

C

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

D

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

the amount of theater this would require is absolutely insane

especially when we're in a gamestate where half the playerlist has yet to check in for the day

[Reality Check]

More reasons to suspect Random and Reality:

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

that's not the underlying reason she's scum, but it's a damn big indicator

These guys are basically ignoring all the analysis I've offered that clarifies precisely why I think what I think and why none of it is random.

coming from the person who tells me that I'm scummy for trying to avoid a scum lynch for a scum lynch yet never explains why my reasoning is wrong, even though I thoroughly answered you when you went into why it was a scummy stance

[Reality Check]

don't make me break out paint.net again RC

I swear to god

[Reality Check]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

A

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

B

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

C

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

D

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

the amount of theater this would require is absolutely insane

especially when we're in a gamestate where half the playerlist has yet to check in for the day

This requires litte if any theater, only scum motivations and knowledge.

The only theater might be the distancing, which is a basic scum pattern that repeats in game after game, nothing close to "insane" theater because it's so consistent a scum pattern. Here, neither the worst nor Reality were the lynch for D1, but they sure went at it against each other for a bit - then came into D2 with strong town reads of each other. Scum motivation: distance from a scum partner without any actual risk of lynching the scum partner.

Reality votes me after I say that Random is scum. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

Reality tries to stop Creature from getting lynched. Scum motivation: delay lynching of scum. No theater involved.

The Worst supporting Reality's votes on me. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

This isn't "insane theater," it's just basic scum patterns on display.

well

1. I made it pretty clear that you were my biggest scumread well before that
2. I went into why I want to delay Creature being lynched multiple times
3. What makes that more likely SvS than TvT or TvS

regarding theatre, creature has come up constantly with the worst and myself
randommidget has done a lot of talking to and about me today
the worst has interacted with and about me a lot today

[Reality Check]

Huh? I've explained why I think the way I do. You disagree with the way I think. That doesn't mean what I think is "random." Nor does it mean that I'm "ignoring" your position - I disagree with it, period. I'm not going to clutter the game up with a point-by-point argument and rebuttal about something that doesn't impact our alignments - you think one way, I think another, and the position I hold is one that's quite reasonable and normal for a townie to hold.

Let me ask you this: is it unfathomable to you that a townie would believe that lynching guaranteed scum is the pro-town choice rather than lynching for information? You think townies wouldn't think the way I do about this theory issue?

it's not scummy to think lynching obvscum is the best choice regardless

it's scummy to push

NOT

thinking that as scummy despite it being explained without explaining why that thought process is scummy

[Reality Check]

Reality, instead of defending yourself from what I'm saying, why don't you answer the questions I asked you earlier - your thoughts on Random, and why you're voting me?

my thoughts on random is that he's in the poe list

I'm voting you because you're scum
you're scum because your thought processes and thought trajectories aren't town.

[Reality Check]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

I can go into theory more if anyone wants to engage it, but I don't think scum lynches are necessarily good for town.

Also just to make this point clear

This means that the no lynch day one could easily have lost town the game already if my views on that are accurate to this game.

It's entirely possible we have a timer going and a limited amount of players able to catch any or multiple scum.

Creature sure as hell doesn't fall under that umbrella. He never lives to endgame in this gamestate, so lynching him isn't always a positive idea.

I'm more glad you have that role because now scum can't just kill all the most competent slots and be done with it because they have to get rid of you too.

I'm done posting here tonight

sorry

[Reality Check]

breaking my "no more posting tonight" thing just to respond to this

No! They’re not getting MISlynched if I have anything to say about it. You’re not very familiar with my meta. I have pretty good reads. I recently finished a team hydra game where I was the only one on my team who correctly read two players as town. I sincerely doubt I’m wrong on this.

welcome to Schrodinger's Shoshin, the slot that is both town and scum at the same time for the same reason

[Reality Check]

I still agree with Reality re:investigation but @Reality Check, you have to agree Nico has a very valid point here. Mislynching Shoshin is terribad for town.

does that apply to tgpkap too

[Reality Check]

I really don’t see how this invalidates my point. Are you seriously suggesting that mislynching you is somehow worse than mislynching, the worst, Vartsun or me? That makes no sense whatsoever. Mislynching any ACTIVE villa is always bad for town. I don’t see how your mislynch is worse for town than any other. If you seriously believe this, I have no words. In a regular game, I would not be questioning this nearly as much.

this isn't responding to anything I said

my point is that investigating me is worthless because this slot will be effectively sorted within a couple days and odds are we'll be nightkilled within that timeframe anyways

the worst has tried to convince nico of that as well as myself

she's stuck in the idea that mastina will snow everybody and make this slot impossible to lynch if it's not investigated, which has been proven wrong

[Reality Check]

Ank is obv towning rly hard rn

Yeah, they’re acting like their mislynch is so much worse than anyone else’s Nico, I retract my objection to you investigating them. It’s just too damn much IMO.

the difference is literally that nobody else in the list you mentioned is in Nico's investigate list

[Reality Check]

Nico

You understand that scum will take any opportunity to lynch a competent town when given an ultimatum like that? If the day ends with that, you would die regardless of our alignment

That's proscum regardless of our alignment

That ultimatum doesn't work unless it traps scum whether it triggers or not

That is protown if we are scum and is absolutely horrible when we are town

unless you're referring to this?

then you're understanding it wrong. look through the context again.

[Reality Check]

actually can everyone just LMK if they're willing to lynch creature TODAY or not in their next post pls?

Not doing so is claiming scum with him so please do


Will wait like 48 hrs before I turn this up to eleven
Creature if you're town pls ascend the status of mason buddy in the next 48 hrs

to avoid a NL yes.

re: first point of 1096, we can see who looked like they were expecting creature to get caught no?

that's hard

scum can either 'catch' him themselves, wait until he gets caught and pretend to have 'caught' him before that, or just not comment at all

or really anything

if there's scum intent there, it's probably subtle

i would like everyone to give thoughts on this. i have my opinion, but i want to see what others say.

I wish there was some way to convince everyone to see what we do. :re: TP/letters. I think she already knows we’re onto her and her absence speaks volumes IMO. @Vartsun , @Taly , please help. Lol.

the absence doesn't mean anything

there's several slots that haven't even checked in yet

[Reality Check]

Meh, fuck this. No point putting effort into a losing game. If you the worst and Reality are scum, I don't see any hope of convincing anyone to lynch them - and if they're town, they're actively not working with me, they're making me paranoid as fuck that they're scum, and apparently they want to lynch me, so I've got nothing left to do here.

If Nancy or Nico want to talk about things, let me know.

I think you’re obvtown. I think people who are scumreading you are tonedeaf. That’s one of the main reasons, I’m so convinced that TP/letters is scum. She’s BOTH antagonistic and fake. Either one alone, doesn’t necessarily equal scum but the two of them combined frequently does.

Your sincerity comes through to me clearly in nearly every post. Why? Unlike TP/letters, you have actual content in your posts and are interactive and questioning. I think everyone (who is town in this game) needs to take into account both thought progression and tone. The problem is that too many people in this game are not doing that. The worst, like you, has demonstrated both.

I can read tone

tone by itself isn't alignment indicative

tone SHIFTS are

[Reality Check]

that entire post was scummy

I indicated as such very shortly after seeing it

[Reality Check]

GIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIF

[Reality Check]

sucks that he probably replaced into a scum slot but I'm still glad he's here

[Reality Check]

GIF isn't that awful

[Reality Check]

Hi GIF

Did you see my reads

[Reality Check]

im back and will most liekly catch up now

---

i don't think Nico scumreads Reality as much as she is afraid of unchecked Mastina running around.

true

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did. I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes. As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day. Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

jesus

alright I'll pick this apart and respond to this piece by piece

if you still wanna do it i would read your response

I did, it's the huge wall I made at some point slightly after that

[Reality Check]

I'd case Shoshin, but it's the kind of case I can't really articulate beyond "look and think about it in these terms"

it's like trying to read peregrinev, either you can do it or you can't

[Reality Check]

actually, the point that is convincing for me is that her entire iso isn't displaying it, only specific chunks are

[Reality Check]

I strongly believe the underground thing is very much a player action

[Reality Check]

I strongly believe the underground thing is very much a player action

It looks about the same as today's masquerade. Do you think it is also player action?

that's why it's very very likely a player action

[Reality Check]

same here tbh my theory about it being maybe non user actions was mostly around the fact it was soundtrack order. this is prolly a scum dreaming god or JOAT or maybe factional 1 shots

look at undertale mafia

the third party had actions with effects similarish to this (Maxous' role for reference)

[Reality Check]

I strongly believe the underground thing is very much a player action

It looks about the same as today's masquerade. Do you think it is also player action?

that's why it's very very likely a player action

this might be too close to spoiling the full theory of what I think this is

oh well, it's not like it's too difficult to figure out

I did a thing guys

[Reality Check]

btw just in case there are people that didn't catch this

nancy and nico both independently obvtowned

[Reality Check]

I strongly believe the underground thing is very much a player action

It looks about the same as today's masquerade. Do you think it is also player action?

that's why it's very very likely a player action

this might be too close to spoiling the full theory of what I think this is

oh well, it's not like it's too difficult to figure out

I did a thing guys.

I disagree. I strongly suspect that Jareth/TGK is none other than our glorious mod, RadiantCowbells. Why? because I think all of Jareth/TGK’s “singing” seem to involve hoods. Hoods are bad for scum because it’s much easier to correctly read someone you’re in a PT with.

look at the context

it's pretty glaring to tell what I'm talking about if you catch it

[Reality Check]

why would scum push nico of all people specifically to save obvscum

that makes no sense

[Reality Check]

like

that rules out the only way nico is scum, which makes her obvtown

so that's not pushable

[Reality Check]

it would give the whole thing away if I told you whether the player was town or scum

[Reality Check]

why would scum push nico of all people specifically to save obvscum

that makes no sense

Are you kidding me? Nico hardclaimed investigative. Of course scum wants that slot dead. How are you not seeing that?

...........................................................

you do that during the night, not during the day

unless there's a damn good reason to

[Reality Check]

so AA9 starts pushing the nicowagon after she obvtowns

[Reality Check]

well yeah it's good for scum if it goes through

the problem is it's DOA

it's never going through

so there's no point in scum pushing it

[Reality Check]

the general principle sure, but nico as a target is nonsensical

[Reality Check]

you're looking at events alone rather than in context of the game as a whole again

[Reality Check]

see I think a lot of the reason you were never able to understand anything I was saying in necromancer was for this exact reason

I look at things in the longer term and see if something fits, it kind of feels like you keep thinking I'm wrong or scummy because whatever I'm commenting on at the moment isn't very sensical by itself

except it does make sense... just when you look beyond it

[Reality Check]

1349 was referring to nico being obvtown

[Reality Check]

I'm not arguing for AA9 being town

I'm arguing that your reason for the nicopush being scummy isn't reasonable

[Reality Check]

same here tbh my theory about it being maybe non user actions was mostly around the fact it was soundtrack order. this is prolly a scum dreaming god or JOAT or maybe factional 1 shots

look at undertale mafia

the third party had actions with effects similarish to this (Maxous' role for reference)

You think Jareth is a third party? Who do you think is third party and third party isn’t pro-town. There is obviously no SK in this game.

I was responding to a post about the role, not the alignment. The entire point of that was to be a point of reference

[Reality Check]

well yeah it's good for scum if it goes through

the problem is it's DOA

it's never going through

so there's no point in scum pushing it

They don’t need the lynch to actually go through,

all they really need is enough votes to prevent a Creature lynch from happening

. What part of we need 8 to lynch are you not getting?

that's never going to work unless it causes a no lynch

[Reality Check]

I'd case Shoshin, but it's the kind of case I can't really articulate beyond "look and think about it in these terms"

something like that would help me in general. so if you have time please do.

sure I'll try at least

[Reality Check]

Spoiler:

VOTE: the worst

VOTE: joral

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

Why not?

VOTE: Reality

I don't

really

think Joral is scum

tbh

I bolded some of the language that pinged me. At this point, it made no sense from a town perspective to hesitantly defend Joral - literally none - and language like "really" and "tbh" suggests that Reality don't believe what they're saying themselves. And when questioned about it, Reality completely ignored me... So I'm happy with where my vote is.

this progression is not natural

the worst, what's your read on Reality? any reason I'm wrong about them?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

dem reads

Yeah, they're pretty bad - but why is that town rather than scum?

this shift is not natural after the above

i don't really like 145. but since we are speaking is there anything else that you don't like about rc?

Their reads suck, they lack any sort of internal logic, and their play feels passive. You're probably right that I'm distant but don't take that as a scum-tell - I'm guessing it's because I don't know anyone so I'm relating to people as strangers, whereas most others here seem to have some history together.

this is independently scummy

If Reality's town, there's a certain degree of paranoia underlying Wheme's vote that feels very town. Like, why would scum Wheme alienate town Reality, the one player who reads Wheme as strong town?

this type of logic is what I'm reading in Shoshin's interactions towards us, plus there's this weird feeling that shoshin is already setting up for our townflip despite having no support for it happening

...I can't follow your thought process too well with some of these votes.

What don't you follow? I explained the vote on Reality but it's obvious nobody wants to pressure them so I'm voting my other suspect. What's confusing about the vote on Sajj? She posts lots of meaningless commentary and doesn't commit to anything.

"I'm not scummy, I swear! look! there's another person doing exactly the same thing as me!"

Look at my correct % in recent games. I'm done trying to convince you people. My record speaks for itself.

I don't think scum would boast about how great their reads usually are.

shoshin has never met the mod before

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

sweaty get off your high horse and go find actual scum

If you helped me out, then maybe I wouldn't vote you. But if you're going to obscure your alignment, then I'm going to assume it's because you're scum.

every other post in my ISO is transparent and conspicuously town motivated. if you get a stick up your ass abt one post which is VERY OBVIOUSLY hinting that I'm planning something with obscuring my read then I can only assume you're scum using an insanely stupid tunnel as a smokescreen.

I disagree. I still have no clue why you read Reality as "badtown" rather than "scum," and you've cluttered the game with tons of pointless posts. I liked your vote on Wheme and that was about it. I've seen scum do exactly what you've done in this game multiple times (including the whole "I'm not going to explain my reads yet because I have plans"), so if that's how you're going to play, I'm going to vote you until I have strong reason to believe you're town. I was hoping your explanation on Sajj would help me read you and her better... but I guess you don't want that?

weak

this is the type of trend I've been seeing in a lot of Shoshin's votes; there's a lot of making up reasons to fit a scumread that they decided to have without a whole lot of sound analysis behind it. read: their later worst/realitycheck scumreads, it's FULL of this

WhemeStar - leans town for pushing Creature/Random and because overall he seems to play without any concern for appearances in a way that's more likely to come from town than scum.

Joral - leans town because of his early play but hasn't posted enough to solidify a read.

Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly) - leans town because they haven't done anything to make me think otherwise plus early post seem aimed at sorting alignments.

ArcAngel9 - leans town, because of early negative utility claim, which I think is more likely to be town than scum motivated, and recent posting doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective - it's the sort of crazy that's more likely to come from town than scum.

the three townreads on whemestar/joral/vartsun are all natural because they're correct. the townread on arcangel9 is jagged and more vague than the others despite having more words on it.

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

bad logic followed by a preemptive /out from seeing this through

I skipped a bunch of posts and didn't go through the whole ISO, but this should be enough to at least show what I'm trying to say regarding Shoshin-scum

1. Read trajectories make no sense
2. Her playstyle reads as significantly leaning towards stream of conscious; players with this style that roll scum have a tendency to want to make sure their thoughts can be seen as consistent, which is why there's a lot of weird justifications for her votes and thoughts that are just added on, like it's an afterthought
3. She is trying to look like she has solid stances, yet she also tries to give herself as much room as possible to change them if she needs to.

Now if you cross-reference it with my reads...

It makes a lot of sense for her to be scum with AA9
It makes sense for her to be scum with Creature
I could see her also being scum with TGPKAP
Somewhat possible scum with random (mainly true if a lot of the general reads in this game are correct, that would need to be verified first)
Not quite as likely scum with Renais/GIF

Shoshin + ArcAngel9 + (Creature/randommidget/GIF/TGPKAP)

it makes a lot of sense where I'm standing

[Reality Check]

Nancy Drew 39 is obvtown even without investigative
NicoRobin is obvtown even without investigative
Scioness Sajj is very close to obvtown
the worst is closeish, there's just a couple things that are worrying about how they're playing

Taly needs to post stuff, but probably town
joral needs to be replaced, but probably town
WhemeStar is probably town (he did something that was really town very early on in the game, only not higher right now before he hasn't done a whole lot since then)

TGPKAP is the most likely town of the four
I think I'll be able to have GIF sorted sooner rather than later, so that should be a huge help

so

Shoshin > ArcAngel9 > Creature > randommidget

That's my current read of the scumteam from most confident to least confident.

[Reality Check]

standard notice that this isn't cross-referenced with my hydra partner, etc.

mastina was happy I came around on Shoshin though, so

(she told me she'd get around to this game when she can, she's just busy with other things and real life right now)

[Reality Check]

Although looking back, Shoshin and ArcAngel9 were in her scumlist, so!

I don't imagine it will take a whole lot of cross-referencing other than hashing out Sajj/worst and maybe ironing out blind spots

[Reality Check]

last thing I promise

The way you read stream of consciousness posting is by looking at how they're thinking and comparing it to what they're thinking

if you REALLY analyze Shoshin's posting under that umbrella, it's pretty clearly not consistent

or just take my word for it, I can read this type of thing fairly accurately and recently proved it

[Reality Check]

I can't wait for the rebuttal saying I'm wrong because of what you said instead of how or why

[Reality Check]

hi walls!

[Reality Check]

Sorry, I don’t see this at all. What I see is a sincere villagery process leading to SOSME misguided conclusions. All this wall really convinces me of is how villagery the worst, Sajj are. I think you are reaching. I also fail to see Sho/Creature connection. And while Wheme isn’t currently in my POE, I’m very far from hardtown reading him. You are wrong about both Sho and random. I think the worst was probably right about you possibly being “bad town”, because you sound like you really believe all of the questionable conclusions you’re drawing. I think a) Sho was confused about the underground hood with you/worst/Sajj and drew erroneous conclusions az a result of that. b) While I still think you’re probably town, I don’t think Sho’s reasons for scumreading you are really that off the wall. Why? Simply because it is so damned important to have a maj lynch today, your “no info” anti-Creature push IS and should be highly suspect, solely based on that. The reason I’m townreading you is because I really feel you have actually confibiased and duped yourself and are earnestly and sincerely trying to make the rest of us drink the same koolade that you drank.

this is really feeling like necromancer all over again

except you're mostly obvtown instead of blatantly obvtown this time

[Reality Check]

I'm not reading all this garbage

Anka what's your meta on bussing like?

I will bus like a motherfucker if I have any reason to

[Reality Check]

like, nancy

I feel like I understand what you're trying to say every time you talk to me

but it feels like you're understanding a completely different version of what I'm saying than what I'm actually saying

and it makes things really confusing

[Reality Check]

Anka is town and I hate townreadig Anka

I hate it when people townread me too

it makes getting reads harder

[Reality Check]

Anka is town and I hate townreadig Anka

oh I should point out

I don't have any fear of bussing, that part is true

but

mastina will avoid bussing whenever possible

so what that answer should mean to you kind of depends on whether or not you believe me about mastina being a very low-level presence here

[Reality Check]

The anti lynch on Creature is something Anka always pushes as town.

I'm really afraid of what kind of profiling you'd have to have done on me to reach this conclusion

[Reality Check]

I'm the worst town player that regularly catches scum