Lynch the Wolves (Game Over)

[northsidegal]

/confirm town

[northsidegal]

VOTE: mathblade

[northsidegal]

i would be laughing but i'm still bitter

[northsidegal]

VOTE: keychain

[northsidegal]

hard scumreading keychain from her confirmation post. townreading aronis and tgp, need someone else to tell me if mathblade flipping out about tgp's joke is town or scum-indicative.

[northsidegal]

How strongly were you townreading me in our last game?

in the 1 vig game? right above GL and right below the worst, about.

[northsidegal]

northsidegal, what are you scum reading keychain for in her confirmation post?

trust me, i can soulread keychain. i'm pretty confident in this.

[northsidegal]

RC, trust me on this - vote keychain with me.

[northsidegal]

mathblade you

need

to slow down

[northsidegal]

wow is that

the

radiantcowbells in our very own game here?

[northsidegal]

i hadn't noticed that

[northsidegal]

going to stop fluffing now for a while

[northsidegal]

i find it hard to believe that apparently i'm among the hardest for you to sort already.

[northsidegal]

ugh, i feel like we're in this awkward "page 10 and still kind of RVS"-feeling.

[northsidegal]

NSG I don't put anything in this game outside of your scum limit.

but other people apparently are to the point where you're close to a full poe?

[northsidegal]

aw. it didn't work.

-sigh-

[northsidegal]

make keychain anxious like back in donner party.

[northsidegal]

yeah

[northsidegal]

arcangel can be scum for 496

[northsidegal]

oh what creature disagrees

[northsidegal]

i consider this game on the lower end of readability

from what's been going on in the thread so far there are people that i pretty easily trust to be town and whose reads i trust, so i guess i'm just going to be outsourcing most of my solving?

[northsidegal]

hey.

when i say "outsourcing my solving" i guess i just mean sheeping / trusting people on their townreads. not doing nothing.

[northsidegal]

i guess my lynchpool looks like:
{HeWhoSwims, Theta Alpine, Definition, TheGoldenParadox, Archwing}

maybe mathblade as well?

[northsidegal]

i don't see much desire to actually figure things out from 496. i've called arcangel as town before off of a single post, so the lack of any seeming desire to figure things out made it more likely to come from scum for me. creature disagrees though, so for now i guess i'll wait to see how that develops more.

[northsidegal]

Creature is being too widely townread. As happens in too many games, people underestimate Creature's scum potential. When he tries, he can pull of a very formidable scum game, which is nearly indistinguishable from his townplay.

um.

is this actually true?

[northsidegal]

magna?

[northsidegal]

Why would creature be any type of expert on AA9's alignment?

-shrug-

i think creature can be considered an "expert" on most people's alignment in general. i trust what he has to say. not saying i'm blindly sheeping him here, but it gave me pause, so i'm waiting to see what aa9 does next.

[northsidegal]

How do you feel about NSG declaring you the AA9 expert?

utter misinterpretation

[northsidegal]

VOTE: tgp, by the way.

[northsidegal]

haha hehe i'm scum for not posting for 24 hours xd

[northsidegal]

stop being dumb rc. i'm reading a lot less of this game than normal for a lot of reasons, but i'm pretty happy with where my vote is right now.

i feel like people this game are getting antsy just having their vote on scum and feel some need to move it around, and it might end up where the largest wagon falls on town even though early on people had scum caught. i feel like i've seen it before.

[northsidegal]

I have seen town!NSG and scum!NSG and they play remarkably similar.

what?

[northsidegal]

hey arch - i already said. there are a lot of reasons why i'm sitting back this game.

what do you expect from town me? because i'm really not concerned at all with this wagon - i'm town, and i know that i can prove that whenever. what i see as an issue is getting hung up on this the entire day just like i said would happen even after people had their votes on likely scum earlier.

[northsidegal]

i don't think things are even that complicated in this game in the first place?

like, are there any

really contentious

slots that people strongly disagree over? because i feel like there's a general consensus on the townier players and the scummier players and so i wonder how much there really is to discuss outside of talking more about my own wagon.

[northsidegal]

i guess my primary scumreads are TGP and hewhoswims?

TGP mainly because i think he's better than making the "so you expect us to sheep you" comment (and i think him being good/bad is AI), and hewhosims because i think he's something of a "wisdom of the crowd" read where if he gets consensus scumread he's likely scum but if he gets consensus townread he's probably just town. (obviously that reasoning wouldn't work for myself in isolation, but in the context of a larger game i think it's valid, and would be valid for certain other pople as well)

[northsidegal]

also i think it is probably +random that scum would be defending me rather than joining my wagon?

that's not to speak about any specific person, but just more that scum, knowing that i'm town, would be less inclined to join my wagon likely knowing that it'll disappear at some point (this is assuming that scum know who i am, which i think is a reasonable assumption?), whereas someone who's uninformed would be more likely to come to the conclusions that, say, archwing has.

[northsidegal]

eh, i was "in" that game

[northsidegal]

i don't think things are even that complicated in this game in the first place?

like, are there any

really contentious

slots that people strongly disagree over? because i feel like there's a general consensus on the townier players and the scummier players and so i wonder how much there really is to discuss outside of talking more about my own wagon.

I am thinking Luna is scum simply from the lack of activity. One of the heads of Luna if I am right likes to be a bullhorn as town and is quieter as scum. Combined with two other heads not being here I think Luna is probably scum. Some people townread the Luna hydra if memory serves.

do you really think it's the best idea to try to be meta reading a secret alt

on top of the first layer of whether or not your meta read is correct in the first place you're also adding a layer of being right about who the person even is that you're meta-ing

also i think it is probably +random that scum would be defending me rather than joining my wagon?

that's not to speak about any specific person, but just more that scum, knowing that i'm town, would be less inclined to join my wagon likely knowing that it'll disappear at some point (this is assuming that scum know who i am, which i think is a reasonable assumption?), whereas someone who's uninformed would be more likely to come to the conclusions that, say, archwing has.

Uhmmm just no. Even if you are town which these last few posts leave me doubting.
Following that conclusion out that would mean scum would defend every wagon against town and be hard bussing all the time.

Scum also need to mislynch. If every wagon on town disappeared every game would be a town sweep.

Without information and knowing who is scum and who is town or at least some motivations statements like that are very likely to be wrong.

i think i was fairly unambiguous in that i was talking about myself specifically, not in general.

i guess my primary scumreads are TGP and hewhoswims?

TGP mainly because i think he's better than making the "so you expect us to sheep you" comment (and i think him being good/bad is AI), and hewhosims because i think he's something of a "wisdom of the crowd" read where if he gets consensus scumread he's likely scum but if he gets consensus townread he's probably just town. (obviously that reasoning wouldn't work for myself in isolation, but in the context of a larger game i think it's valid, and would be valid for certain other pople as well)

Convince me you’re town. I really dislike you’re “people will just back off me”. It’s terribad.

It looks like a majority of your posting is recycled thoughts.

VOTE: northsidegal

how is it "terribad"?

what do you mean "recycled thoughts"?

[northsidegal]

I have seen town!NSG and scum!NSG and they play remarkably similar.

what?

Yes. Without alt outing one of your alts I can’t explain it but yes I have. I was the moderator.

you've never moderated a game that i've been scum in, alt or otherwise. where are you getting that impression from?

[northsidegal]

Uhmmm no. You weren’t. And even if you were the argument still doesn’t apply far as I can tell. If I can swap your name for mine in the player list and reach the same result without needing to analyze our similarities and differences it’s inherently a bad argument.

first of all, it's not an "argument" in the first place - it's something that i think could be possible based on my expectations of what scum would and wouldn't do and how they would interact with me. yes, it absolutely does depend on the person, and no - saying that scum may be more likely to be not just following along on a wagon is not an "inherently bad argument", it's something that's empirically verifiable. that's not to say that it happens every game - like i said,

it depends on the person.

for my case, i imagine that scum would be more likely to defend me rather than hop on my wagon (at least, in the early stages). this is something that i can claim based on previous experience from how scum have interacted with a wagon on me in the past.

i have no idea what you're even attempting to accomplish here.

[northsidegal]

My bad I am an old foagie there was a game I replaced into where your slot was lynched d1 for starters.

what game specifically? because from cross-referencing games i was lynched day 1 (very few) and games you've been in i didn't turn anything up.

[northsidegal]

I am demonstrating your “point” “argument” or whatever you want to call it that scum would back off you is just bad.

You haven't "demonstrated" anything. You've just said that i'm wrong.

Furthermore by mentioning it if you are town you are in effect going to end up bringing scum to your wagon not away from it. And unless a pattern is predictable a good majority of the time, it’s not relevant for this scenario and is just wifom.

My point in bringing this up is trying to show that
A) if you’re town this is a bad thing to do. It’s like “look at this self meta” if anyone cared they would already be doing it and it torpedoes any sort of wagon analysis
B) if you’re scum it serves to try to sow seeds of doubt so I would look for a busser on your wagon.

how does just the fact that (according to you) mentioning it would bring scum to my wagon make it "a bad thing to do" if i'm using the thought to look at how scum would be interacting with my wagon?

i could get it if your point was that i'm not being specific enough - otherwise, i fail to see what's "terribad" about it, as you said.

i mean, really - mentioning how i think scum are interacting with my wagon is "terribad"? that's ridiculous.

(by the way, you're utterly wrong on self-meta. it's not even an argument - i can literally

prove

you wrong.)

[northsidegal]

My bad I am an old foagie there was a game I replaced into where your slot was lynched d1 for starters.

what game specifically? because from cross-referencing games i was lynched day 1 (very few) and games you've been in i didn't turn anything up.

I have to out your alt.

Do I have permission?

just mention the game.

Yeah he is indeed........

Maybe the classic scummove, where you perceive to have been pushed for valid reasons and your hand feels caught in the cooky jar? Hence assigning way too much instant-towncred because you fail to look at it from the other potential reasoning for doing what he did.

For example,

A lot of arguments have been brought up that TGP’s earlier posts calling me obvTown were bad. Your argument for the TGP read is that he has bad skill. (Which is in effect a rehashing of precious points)

i don't understand how you can possibly look at what vecna is saying there and what i said and call them the same thing. you're generalizing to a level where any conclusion is useless.

what vecna is saying there is that TGP's townread on you is something like TMI - what

i

was saying was that TGP's last post, directed towards vecna, was a really (pardon the offense, tgp) dumb thing to say, and that i think that that is alignment-indicative for TGP specifically (whereas it may not be for other people).

they're not really comparable.

[northsidegal]

hi nsg

hi. now i can stop talking to mathblade.

vote tgp with me?

[northsidegal]

Simple yes or no will suffice here.

And you tried using the votecounter in that game.

Pedit mini 2002 The Thaw OVERRRrRRRr

Did you expect me NOT to know about it?

I replaced in under an alt of mine after you died.

And you lurked that game too.

Yes sometimes as town you lurk too.

Hence why I am not convinced by the meta argument.

I am more convinced by how you reacted to my vote.

k

(i don't understand your point.)

[northsidegal]

If you think swims is that kind of person why not join the wagon? And if you think Swims is a majority read why not push that harder? I don’t understand your point and lack of followthru and therefore it strikes me as terribad

by the way, in the vast majority of situations i feel like a question like "why didn't you do X more" will never find you scum. there are a lot of reasons why someone might not have done something as much as you might expect. it might differ from person to person - even from person to person, it might differ from day to day. i really doubt in most cases that it's AI.

even in a case where someone has a townread on someone getting wagoned, i've seen it where that person is asked after the wagoned person flips town "if you townread YYY, why didn't you defend them more?" the reality is just that some people don't do hard defenses like that. i feel like that sort of thing generalizes to most cases unless you have (good) reason to believe that for a specific person it's AI.

[northsidegal]

k

[northsidegal]

i really don't mean to be rude here or blow you off but i just do not feel like it's necessary for me to go that point by point so i don't really feel like clogging the thread.

if other people think they're valid and that i should respond then i will but all of your posts were part of the reason why i stopped reading a lot of the thread anyways

[northsidegal]

I have a history of misinterpreting people when they change their posting habits for the better Hebichan. Thats why im asking RC for his opinion on the recent NSG posts, since he stated he wanted to lynch NSG unless she convinced him of being town. I feel her recent posts make her sound at least somewhat towny yes, allthough im still not fully convinced.

TGP still seems like a more decent lynch in my book though

change their posting habits? who are you referring to with this?

what do you make of tgp's latest entrance to the thread outside of "confusing"?

[northsidegal]

i'm voting tgp formultiple reasons. the first is because i think town tgp is better than making this post:

Actually, I have a pretty good idea.

VOTE: AA9

Lets just lynch the slot.

Ok great, you want us to sheep you with absolutely no reasons or logic. Who do you think you are?

[northsidegal]

the second is a combination elli-tell / "wolfy pop-in". TGP has been posting in other games whereas his only recent post in this thread was this:

VOTE: MathBlade

which, to me, displays something of a lack of interest in doing

any

sort of sorting. even when i'm feeling lazy and i enter the thread basically just to vote (as in 703), i still responded to

something

, and from an objective point of view it showed that i was reading the thread. obviously there's nothing like that there in what tgp posted.

[northsidegal]

and, i suppose just to elaborate on the first point, i think that TGP being bad or good is actually AI for him. in a theme game that i modded where he was town, this was his lynchpool on day one:

My lynchpool right now is {Gamma, Cheeky, TWC, Wheme(policy), Pintu}
Gamma: I already explained my case.
Cheeky: Provides little in the way of game content, preferring to say things like "why are you guys so scummy" and then proceeds to have the biggest mislynch bait ever as her top townreads. I don't see that coming from this great of a town player, especially considering the difference between this and Gold Rush, although that may be normal newbie queue playstyle differences.
TWC and Pintu: Both perfectly good and capable players that are staying under the radar. I'm willing to partly excuse this as there could be multiple reasons for this absense.
Wheme: Provides none in the way of actual game content, trolling, which is NAI, but makes me want to PL him.

that contains the entire scumteam, the neutral survivor, and one townie.


on the other hand, recently i read grand idea overdrive, where he dayvigged two players that were pretty widely townread with some pretty weak reasoning:

kk cool

Shoot:Nero

This is a) policy
b) because I think he's jester

um
ok

shoot:mulch

this is scum

do you think i'm scum think again

he was a werewolf here. that thread isn't too long so reading it might give you some better context for what i'm saying (as well as some more examples of questionable reasoning / play), but this is where i'm coming from when i say that for TGP specifically i think the question he asked is scum-indicative.

[northsidegal]

Okay, don't find my vote that plausible

UNVOTE:

still hate that this day's gonna boil down to lynch a lurker

-shrug-

i used to agree really strongly with not lynching lurkers but lately it's just been hitting scum far more often.

[northsidegal]

lynch the ones that are scum then

[northsidegal]

yuurei seemed to have a pretty good presence, although less so i guess recently.

[northsidegal]

(a pretty good presence in terms of posting activity, that is)

[northsidegal]

now, tell me - have you been following the thread and just now decided to respond to that?

how did you see my post if you haven't read up on the thread?

[northsidegal]

NSG seems very "busy" here, this i not what I expect from town nsg.
VOTE: northsidegal

elaborate?

[northsidegal]

now, tell me - have you been following the thread and just now decided to respond to that?

how did you see my post if you haven't read up on the thread?

what do you mean
i was reading the thread before you posted that
and then i just now logged on
i'm quite obviously not on my computer 24/7
what was the point of that question

if you were reading the thread and just then decided to respond to what i had said (and not to anything else going on in the thread), i consider that mildly scum-indicative (given that, again, it shows very little of a desire to actually sort

anything

)

it was strange to me that you responded to something that was on the latest page and yet apparently hadn't read the thread from your last post

if you've been following along, why mention that you're reading the thread (with the implication being that you're rereading / catching up)?

[northsidegal]

NSG seems very "busy" here, this i not what I expect from town nsg.
VOTE: northsidegal

elaborate?

to be more specific: what exactly do you mean by " "busy" ", what do you expect from town nsg, and how is how i'm playing right now different from that expectation?

[northsidegal]

i get the feeling that things aren't going to turn out so well.

[northsidegal]

just a feeling.

[northsidegal]

hilarious

[northsidegal]

actually it's just a really ignorantly stupid comment.

[northsidegal]

sorry, that was rude.

[northsidegal]

it's just that there are so many faulty assumptions that would have to go into making that conclusion. i think it also assumes that i'm incompetent no matter if i'm town or scum - if i'm town then you're saying that i can't possibly have felt like (not even "predicted", just felt like) that this would turn out to be T/T, if i'm scum then you're assuming given this situation where both of them are town that i would choose to play it like that rather than any other way, which just doesn't make sense to me.

i'm not entirely sure why it got me so indignant seeing it but i feel like people actually get lynched off of reasoning like that and i really just do not think it's valid.

[northsidegal]

This post is questionable. It starts off as burden of proficiency based on one game of evidence, and doesn't follow to the conclusion since your push isn't based on TGP's reads at all (or certainly shouldn't be considering it's D1). So I agree with TGP's defense in 933. Not sure what to think about 936's vote in retaliation.

It's not just based on one game of evidence - I quoted more than one there. Perhaps a larger sample size would disprove it, but in the first place it was always more about my idea of tgp as a player rather than a specific comparison to another game. The things I quoted were simply to give an example of what I was saying.

What do you mean when you say that it "doesn't follow yo the conclusion since it isn't based on his reads"? I don't understand why you would think it has to be about his reads in specific instead of just, say, the questions he asks to scumhunt.

If you know someone asks pointed, relevant questions as town but then in a game their scumhunting seems lacklustre, how wouldn't that be relevant?

[northsidegal]

Yay repeating 851 and calling it new.

This boils down to BoP on TGP. There is nothing new in this post.

Don't be an idiot. I never called this "new", in the post right before this luna asked tgp voters to justify themselves, so I did.

<<< Fixing tag. >>>

[northsidegal]

Honestly considering replacing out.

[northsidegal]

Dealing with you is going to get me more emotional than I want to be. It's that or I strongly consider policy lynching you to not deal with another Wisdom. I don't want to have to do that.

If you're scum then well done.

[northsidegal]

In contrast this is how she deals with me. She is much more antagonistic.

I wouldn’t be surprised if both were scum especially since NSG didn’t join the TGP wagon.

Describe how my questions to you were "more antagonistic"?

I can admit that I get more annoyed talking to you than to tgp, but I think my questions to both of you were relatively similar: asking you to elaborate and be more specific about your scumreads.

[northsidegal]

Just simply because I scumread you? Wtf.

No, because

nothing you're saying makes sense.

[northsidegal]

“do you really think it’s best to read a secret alt?” The question feels more like “I know better than you how to play with a little bit of ‘You suck’” thrown in for good measure.

It’s the “really” that is antagonistic in nature. More combative.

Take in contrast with TGP.

If you're reading any of that in that question then it's you applying that yourself - i never intended any implication of the sort.

[northsidegal]

I just don't think you'd have felt the need to argue that it was fake if you knew it was 100% fake, especially not to the point of dragging a weird out of context quote to support that claim.

it seems strange to me to just suggest that they would accept a false guilty being claimed against them

[northsidegal]

i mean it's weird but i can see this making sense from a town perspective

The day cop is clearly fake and is NAI for Dr. Cowbells. The mod wasn't even around at the time said day cop was used
~Diana

i just feel more confident in the reasons for TGP being scum.

[northsidegal]

nothing else?

[northsidegal]

TGP was around yesterday but didn't post here.

[northsidegal]

creature i refuse to give a read on because he's doign his damnedest to lead town off a cliff

in what sense?

[northsidegal]

creature i refuse to give a read on because he's doign his damnedest to lead town off a cliff

in what sense?

what has creature actually done today NSG

saying that he hasn't done much seems to run contrary to saying he's done his best to lead town off a cliff.

i think in most cases creature isn't one to actually push through lynches that much. can you elaborate?

[northsidegal]

vastly more games are lost due to fetishization of deep wolves and failure to lynch legitimately wolfy people than are lost because there was a deep wolf.

like ari was objectively wolfy. ari didn't get lynched because everyone was searching for wolves in the objectively towny people. and the damage creature is doing to my drive to play the game far exceeds the minimal +equity he'd gain if I was scum.

????

creature has made like 1 post about deepwolves and like 3 posts saying that he has no reason to townread you.

is there something i'm missing? i don't understand what kind of damage he's doing.

[northsidegal]

so
why are you voting me again

(skipped past 16 pages)

do you think there are reasons that we shouldn't be voting you?