How much commitment do we require?

[MichelSableheart]

Hobbies take time, but not every hobby takes the same amount of time. If you start a boardgame with your friends, you're committing yourself for the hour it will take that game to finish. If you become a member of a sports team, you're signing up for one evening of training each week, plus a match every weekend. In the same way, playing a game of mafia on this forum takes time. But how much time exactly? On the one hand, it is clear that 5 minutes a week simply isn't enough, as you wouldn't be able to make the one post every 48 hours most rulesets require of their players. On the other hand, it is also clear that we can't expect players to be available 24/7, as people at the very least require sleep. What time commitment do we expect from our players?

There are various reasons for me writing this post.

The first is that I'm considering playing a game of mafia again, after a 2 year break. I took that break after I noticed that I had overcommitted, and didn't have the time available that I needed to play in the game I was in. My available time still isn't great though, so I would like to make sure that I can commit the time that games require.

A second reason is that I searched mafia discussion for the reason why current games reach such higher postcounts then they did in the past, and that as a result of that search, I found the Mafia Game Posting Frequency Discussion. A recurring point of discussion in that topic was the disagreement between users saying (my paraphrasing) "I'm trying to be active, but I can't keep up with the post counts of some games" and those claiming "those postcounts are part of the current meta, if you can't deal with them, you shouldn't be playing mafia". I noticed that "what kind of time investment should be enough to play mafia on this site" was never explicitly discussed.

So I would like to open discussion on what kind of commitment a player makes when they join a game of mafia.

The following is a list of questions that can function as a starter for discussion.

• What are the things that a player should be doing for you to say that a player is playing the game? (to what extend should they read the thread, what kind of quality of posting do you expect, what quantity of posting do you expect, how aware should they be about what's going on, how much do you expect them to think about the game, etcetera)
  
• What are the things that a player should be doing for you to say that a player is playing the game well?
  
• How much time would you expect a player to spend on each of the points above?
  
• How would you expect that time to be distributed throughout a week?
  
• To what extend do the answers to these questions differ between individual games?
  
• Is there a difference between what you would like the site to require, versus what games on this site actually require?

I have some thoughts on the subject, but I will forego them for now, as they are mainly theoretical without current site experience. It's bad form for someone who hasn't played in 2 years to start telling everyone how things should be run.

[MichelSableheart]

Thanks for the replies! In particular, "make sure to check in after a post in case someone has questions/replies" is useful to keep in mind.

@Alisae: even though "playing the game well" is dependent on playstyle, I think the question is relevant to the discussion at hand. After all, a player who constantly feels they would be playing better if they spent more time on the game, but who can't afford to spend that time, gets easily demotivated. I would assume that the commitment we require from our players would be such that every single day, they spend at least enough time to play the game, and that on their good days, they spend the additional time required to improve from that baseline.

The alternative, a player who spends enough time to play the game on average, falling behind on their bad days and catching up on their good days, seems at very high risk of burnout when a string of bad days happens and their good days are no longer enough to catch up.

[MichelSableheart]

@AGhost: I completely agree that a player should ask themselves if they have time for a game before signing up. Part of my reason for creating this thread is to help players with that assessment. Ideally, after reading this thread, a player can go "ok, I know I have about this much time, and can log in this often, so I should have/probably don't have enough time to sign up for a game."

But isn't "All I expect from people is to give a good effort if they've decided to play and to replace out if they recognize that they can't." a bit contradictory to that? If a player honestly asked themselves if they had enough time to play, then barring major changes in their schedule, they should never end up in a situation where they can't put in the effort required?

[MichelSableheart]

Perhaps it is a good idea to go into my expectations from a player. I'll go into the first, second and fifth questions, as those can be answered without knowing too much about the time requirements of the current meta.

For me to consider a player to be playing the game, I expect them to:

• Read enough of the thread to have a general idea of what's going on in the game (claims, bandwagons + the reasons for them, the general gist of arguments being made, etcetera)
  
• Put some considerations behind their votes
  
• Post often enough to avoid being prodded
  
• Have their posting be something others can respond to.

In order to play well, a player can improve on several of these basic requirements. The details would vary with playstyle, but they generally involve putting more time and effort in the game. Examples could include, but are not limited to:

• Reading the thread in more detail to catch nuances you would otherwise have missed
  
• Actively consider arguments from others, checking them against the events in the thread
  
• Perform analysis on events in the game to determine their implications for who's scum
  
• Engage others in conversation to get a better read on them
  
• Spend time improving the quality of your posts to make them easier understandable

Both in my lists of basic things to do, and in my list of possible improvements on that baseline, there is one point where I would expect the time requirement to fluctuate between different games. Reading the thread in enough detail to have a general idea of what's going on, and reading the thread in more detail to catch nuances, will probably take more time when there is more content to read. Because of this, the time requirements of a game with lots of active players are probably higher then those of a game filled with players who don't post as often.

As I mentioned in my reply to Alisae, I would like to see that a player who signs up for a game has enough time available such that on their bad activity days, they have enough time to meet the basic standards. That way, they won't fall behind, and can use their days with better activity to improve the quality of their play.

[MichelSableheart]

I think where I would draw the line of 'bad' participation is if the player isn't keeping up and does nothing but "catch up" posts[...]

I would say as long as the player isn't consistently being prodded, then I'm fine with it.

[...]there should be no excuse to get prodded in a Geriatric game because it's not "spam central

if I'm understanding these quotes correctly, you expect players to be active enough to generally not require prodding and to be caught up enough to be able to participate. Given that prodding generally happens after 48 hours without posting, that implies a commitment at least once every two days, and more likely daily, correct?

So combining that information with Alisae's estimate of 6-10 hours a week, I should expect to spend about an hour each day on a game. Given a player with that type of activity, what kind of playing style would you expect them to have in order to keep up with the game?

@Porochaz: I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're saying. On the one hand, you claim that you were doing all nighters on mafiascum in 08-09 already. On the other hand, you seem to say that the commitment requirement became bigger in recent years. If you were doing all nighters, then surely you were spending more then a few hours a week? To what extend is the problem that you currently have less time available?

[MichelSableheart]

@Porochaz: thank you for the clear and honest answer. It's enlightening.

@Aghost: the reason I ask about playstyle isn't so much preference, as it is to get an idea of what's viable. That you believe a wall poster should be able to write two to four big posts is pretty telling in that regard. Even on a short post such as this one, I spent about 10 minutes thinking about exactly what I want to say and how I want to say it. If I wanted, I could easily spend several hours on a longer post, double checking information, linking to what's relevant, rewriting to be as clear as possible. And that's not counting the time it would take to read the thread thoroughly. Given your reaction here, I get the impression that such a style would be considered huge overkill.

[MichelSableheart]

I'm unsure to what extend I find it desirable that time requirements vary based on playerlist, in particular for normal games, which in theory should be relatively interchangeable. The quality of the game can vary based on mod and players, sure, so the question whether you

want

to sign up probably should vary based on playerlist. However, it seems to me that the question whether you

can

(afford to) sign up for a normal game should ideally be independent of playerlist, in my opinion.

@callforjudgement: What about players who haven't disappeared, but who don't meet the desired activity requirements either? Games can come to a crashing halt when everyone is waiting for a player who regularly gets prodded. On the other hand, I've also seen revolving door games, where a mod strictly enforcing activity requirements led to replacement after replacement.

[MichelSableheart]

correct.

[MichelSableheart]

I dunno if you're aware of this, but mafiascum has the highest rate of replacement of any mafia forum. It also has the highest rate of multigaming. Feels a little bit silly to talk about activity requirements.

Strongly disagree here. The fact that mafiascum has such a high replacement rate implies to me that either games on this forum require more commitment then some people can give, or that players are regularly signing up for more games then they can handle.

If it's the first, then that is something that needs to be discussed, identified, and changed. Our long days and slow pace should make this site ideal for players who can't afford to set aside significant amounts of time in a short period, but who can set aside a bit of time each day over a longer period. If that is what we want from our games, then we should make sure that such players are capable of playing our games, so that they won't have to replace out. A discussion of how much time should be enough to play is a pertinent part of getting to such a situation. In my opinion, a lack of awareness of whether the activity requirements we set are realistic for the games we play is a major cause of the high number of replacements in our games. We tell players "don't worry, you'll be fine, all you have to do is post enough to not be prodded" and then expect those players to keep up with others who can spend hours in a back and forth.

If it's the second, then a discussion of activity requirements is also very pertinent. It makes players better aware of the amount of time required for a single game, and therefore better capable of avoiding the situation where they bite off more then they can chew. Besides, there is a large difference between "you're already signed up for 3 games, are you sure you can handle a fourth?" and "the games you're signed up for should take you about 4.5 hours each day. Are you sure you can afford to go up to 6 hours?"

[MichelSableheart]

Quoting as it is related:

I remember most of my games dragging to deadline. Days that ended quickly were the exception rather than the rule.

As it is with 7 day deadlines you are getting prodded within a day of inactivity. When the site reaches the point where it expects you to post not only every day but multiple times every day it's reached the point where I can't possibly commit to playing another game ever again.