Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[davesaz]

davesaz:

When I started reading, I had foreknowledge that davesaz's miller claim was

apparently retracted/changed into 'some negative utility'

at a later point.

The underlined is incorrect.
I stated that I'm miller. At a later point I said that my "ability" section had flavor in it. There has never been a retraction / change about the role -- it's straight Commonwealth miller with nothing else, and nothing but the flavor in the ability section.

[davesaz]

Regarding Jungle:

Punreader's analysis assumes a: that scum!Jungle wouldn't gambit, b: that town would inevitably lynch scum!Jungle after these events making it a low chance of success.

I don't know who Jungle is and make it a policy not to dig. If someone wants to play as an alt and has the discipline to stay in character, more power to them. So I don't know if a gambit is likely or unlikely, I just know it can't be ruled out. The PLAN might have been for Impossibear to die, and scum!Jungle is then functionally a loud fruit vendor at very little risk. Not claiming it loses the possibility of using it at all. So claiming an outlandish quest might be a gambit to salvage the role's usefulness.

Having a competent mod design a quest with that degree of complexity and then allowing it to fail on a technicality when the intent was clear stretches credibility a little. I suppose a mod could be that hardcore and town!Jungle could make that mistake, but it seems very unlikely.

Moving on to the question of whether town would inevitably punish scum!Jungle with a lynch -- it seems that WIFOM might be king here and we might not do so simply on the "mistake".
But that is very short sighted, to excuse it as human error and not a possible gambit. If we look at Jungle

outside the quest info

, what would the read be? I maintain that the read should be scum based on the evidence.

[OnTheMark]

Regarding Jungle:

Punreader's analysis assumes a: that scum!Jungle wouldn't gambit, b: that town would inevitably lynch scum!Jungle after these events making it a low chance of success.

I don't know who Jungle is and make it a policy not to dig. If someone wants to play as an alt and has the discipline to stay in character, more power to them. So I don't know if a gambit is likely or unlikely, I just know it can't be ruled out. The PLAN might have been for Impossibear to die, and scum!Jungle is then functionally a loud fruit vendor at very little risk. Not claiming it loses the possibility of using it at all. So claiming an outlandish quest might be a gambit to salvage the role's usefulness.

Having a competent mod design a quest with that degree of complexity and then allowing it to fail on a technicality when the intent was clear stretches credibility a little. I suppose a mod could be that hardcore and town!Jungle could make that mistake, but it seems very unlikely.

Moving on to the question of whether town would inevitably punish scum!Jungle with a lynch -- it seems that WIFOM might be king here and we might not do so simply on the "mistake".
But that is very short sighted, to excuse it as human error and not a possible gambit. If we look at Jungle

outside the quest info

, what would the read be? I maintain that the read should be scum based on the evidence.

+1

[davesaz]

I've mentioned this before in other games, but I haven't been keeping solid track on who I've seen as scum and who I haven't. So I don't know if I have seen Nero lurk as scum.
I can say conclusively that the argumentative and pushy Nero that I've seen as town was not present in this game. And Projectmatt's posting hasn't struck me as town.

I would be willing to accept a Projectmatt lynch if necessary, but would prefer that we resolve Jungle. If we allow scum!Jungle to push another fruitless outlandish quest on town it might damage us beyond repair. Am I wrong to think it's within the mod's range to include something tantalizing as a way to punish a greedy town? In the unlikely event Jungle is really town, it would be bad to lose the potential upside, but I can't see the game being designed so that town needs the quest to win. Furthermore if Jungle is town and the quest is powerful, why would scum leave the quest giver alive?

[OnTheMark]

I've mentioned this before in other games, but I haven't been keeping solid track on who I've seen as scum and who I haven't. So I don't know if I have seen Nero lurk as scum.
I can say conclusively that the argumentative and pushy Nero that I've seen as town was not present in this game. And Projectmatt's posting hasn't struck me as town.

I would be willing to accept a Projectmatt lynch if necessary, but would prefer that we resolve Jungle. If we allow scum!Jungle to push another fruitless outlandish quest on town it might damage us beyond repair. Am I wrong to think it's within the mod's range to include something tantalizing as a way to punish a greedy town? In the unlikely event Jungle is really town, it would be bad to lose the potential upside, but I can't see the game being designed so that town needs the quest to win. Furthermore if Jungle is town and the quest is powerful, why would scum leave the quest giver alive?

+1

[davesaz]

Regarding Maria, I know we can count on RC to have invited another member to the neighborhood. We can hope that at least one of them is town. If the neighborhood generates a track result on someone who visits, it yields two conf or a town/scum dipole. I think we wait on her to see what results there are, if any.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Good thing we want to resolve Jungle today and we didnt want to resolve dave yesterday am i right?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

I'm not lynching Jungle in this universe nor the next specially after this string of posts.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

I will however lynch this.
VOTE: matt

[davesaz]

I know you're IC and all, but nice job on Wraith there. I never did get the explanation that I wanted on that.
IC's wanting to lynch obvtown is sadly a thing.

[davesaz]

Above comment is in reference to 4181.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

My comment was mostly directed to the Roleblocker agreeing with their pseudoguilty on the "WIFOM explains everything" reasoning which if it's something you truly believe then you might as well not have townreads considering everything can be explained under the guise of "To appear town", punreader brought some very valid points and you guys are shading them like no tomorrow just to get your lynch.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

If you

really

wanted Jungle to be resolved you'd give him a chance to prove himself via succesfully using his role instead of pushing for his lynch.

[OnTheMark]

If you

really

wanted Jungle to be resolved you'd give him a chance to prove himself via succesfully using his role instead of pushing for his lynch.

He already had that chance and didn’t do it.

[OnTheMark]

For the record, here's my list of TRs, not in any specific order.

Ankamius
matt
kokichi
OTM
impossibear (pending clearance tomorrow)
jungle (pending confirmation of quest)
alchemist
wilky

Even then that's a smaller list that i would like...

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

[OnTheMark]

This reads more like you just don’t want to go down MY suggestions more than even listening to yourself.

The quest thing tore apart day two and if we let it continue Jungle if scum will make up something that will destroy d4.
And if he’s town it will probably have the same effect.

To be frank I would rather play mafia. Powers from the quests be damned.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

I was, but now I townread the slot, regardless of quest or not.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

To be frank I would rather play mafia. Powers from the quests be damned.

So your implication of "playing mafia" is "motivations be damned, gamestate be damned, everything is done for WIFOM and to look town"

[OnTheMark]

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

I was, but now I townread the slot, regardless of quest or not.

Then you should be able to answer dave’s Question of what in the play makes you townread the slot. Instead of dodging it and attacking those that scumread jungle.

A majority of your townblock scumreads jungle. Dave Half of the impossibear hydra for starters. Look at the people on the Matt wagon.

[OnTheMark]

To be frank I would rather play mafia. Powers from the quests be damned.

So your implication of "playing mafia" is "motivations be damned, gamestate be damned, everything is done for WIFOM and to look town"

My implication of playing mafia is to have discussions regarding townreads and scumreads
Not hop through vote hoops or twinkle on your toes three times.

[davesaz]

You were testing him pending confirmation of the quest.

So now you’re just gonna test him again?

I was, but now I townread the slot, regardless of quest or not.

Can you give us some analysis of Jungle quotes that are not quest related, to show why? I'm very open to listening to evidence.
My issue is with assuming someone can't be scum merely because their actions would be "bad". That's the kind of thing that scum exploit all the time.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

If we're going down that route then I could go ahead and say that Hebichan's posting was to pretend your slot is town.
Or that you went and gave a quick reads list when you thought you'd be modkilled to further WIFOM on reads.

But i'm not, and you know why? Because I dont honestly believe any of those actions could be seriously taken by someone in a scum slot. Same goes with Jungle, those actions dont make sense for someone with a scum role PM.

[Kaede Akamatsu]

Meanwhile we have a legit case of scum meta towards Nero slot, which you guys are blindly turning your eyes on in favor of pursuing this "let's resolve Jungle slot", and you're telling ME to play Mafia?

[Kaede Akamatsu]

So tell me.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a town player made an honest mistake and it must without a doubt be a scum player trying to manipulate town.

[OnTheMark]

So tell me.
Why is it so hard for you to believe that a town player made an honest mistake and it must without a doubt be a scum player trying to manipulate town.

Because a moderator doesn’t require a submit after.

Find me any action ever in any theme game at all

That requires player A submit to Player B and then people do something then Player A does something.

I just don’t think that is a thing. It’s more likely a fruit vendor than a new type of action.