Mini Normal 2016 | Otters vs. Penguins | Endgame

[Gustavo]

VOTE: lefty
Haven’t seen a train this exciting since college.

[Gustavo]

VOTE: Gustavo

There's only room for 1 character alt here.

My character > yours. I’ve never even heard of your character.

[Gustavo]

I’m down for a fast day. I’m getting ready to play a game that ends in 36 hours so I need practice

[Gustavo]

Why? 2 week deadlines are horrible.

[Gustavo]

why not use more the 36 hours to nail scum?

I was just pushing for faster. It doesn’t have to be 36, though practice doesn’t hurt

[Gustavo]

bold and all caps? how can i ignore that

VOTE: teacher

[Gustavo]

btw in the otter v penguin discussion, hands down otters. They are just so damn cute

[Gustavo]

@Gustavo: You've contributed almost nothing but a train joke, joine4d each wagon as it picks up steam, and pushed for the day to end super-quick. What do you think of the the TChill-BBT interactions? Or more generally the fact that the entire Lefty wagon remains together, now on a new person?

I haven’t read their interactions yet. Let me do that and I’ll get back to you. I’m not so worried about who’s on the train wagon.

[Gustavo]

I see nothing note worthy in the bbt/tchill interactions. What am I missing?

[Gustavo]

Scumread: BBT - Says stuff with no reason, and then when asked to elaborate he just ignores them or makes a snarky comment. It's probably me having a personal gripe, but withholding information from town is one of the scummiest things you can do imo, and this is a prime example.

Why would scum do this? How do you differentiate scummy vs just being an ass

[Gustavo]

What was the point of that?

[Gustavo]

I mean being an ass is a scumtell for me

You should probably work to change that. Very rarely are scum in the assholes.

[Gustavo]

For now Byron v bbt is tvt.

I’ve got a good list of town reads so far. We should lynch teacher and go from there.

[Gustavo]

For now Byron v bbt is tvt.

I’ve got a good list of town reads so far. We should lynch teacher and go from there.

Mind sharing that list?

Nah.

[Gustavo]

VOTE: ByronVilla
this is scum

It’s very obvious he’s town. This is why you aren’t on the list

[Gustavo]

I play to win, not to survive. In a worst case scenario when I die, I want to make sure there's enough info left for other townies to pick up the pieces.

But if you scum read people for things that aren’t AI, nobody is going to listen to you when you are dead. Besides, unless you are NKd, people typically don’t listen to the dead people and while i town read you, If you are actually town, id be surprised if scum actually killed you.

[Gustavo]

it's like that stuff about calling BBT scum for being "an ass" i don't like

Why does that make somebody scum though?

[Gustavo]

For now Byron v bbt is tvt.

I’ve got a good list of town reads so far. We should lynch teacher and go from there.

Mind sharing that list?

Nah.

Cool.

You’d tell me if you were scum right?

Absolutely

[Gustavo]

@lefty, if you read my posts you could probably guess my town list with high accuracy

[Gustavo]

it's like that stuff about calling BBT scum for being "an ass" i don't like

Why does that make somebody scum though?

it's a bad reason to scumread someone
scum tries to make town look like scum

But bad =/= scum.

Sure scum try to make town look bad but sometimes town makes themselves look bad and town think it’s scummy.

In this scenario I could very easily see naive town push an asshole so to me it’s not really scummy.

That being said, one could use the same logic against you. You could be scum making Byron look bad

[Gustavo]

@lefty, if you read my posts you could probably guess my town list with high accuracy

Maybe. I’d rather not try to guess than just like talk with you about reads, but I can understand the approach of letting things develop before showing all your cards.

It’ll just also make it hard for me to TR you

You should be more concerned with who I’m scum reading. I don’t see how you knowing who I town read helps.

[Gustavo]

We can talk scum reads too if you want. I’m really just looking for any sort naunced read other than arguing the ~obvious logical standpoints you are currently. You just read calculated to me, hard to describe beyond saying gut vibes.

Well that was kind of a test. I wanted to see how truly interested you were with knowing my town reads. I was hoping when I said you could find them by reading my posts you’d actually go look. You not doing that makes me feel like the request was rhetorical.

I guess you can say I’m being a little calculating, I feel that is a fair assessment of how I’ve been acting.

[Gustavo]

scum don't have to make byron look bad. It's also easier for scum to let town make other town look bad. Scum usually just want to look town. thats it.

Oh I agree. If Byron is town he’s done a fantastic job at setting himself up for a mislynch at some point. He also could be scum but based what I’ve seen I’m good with leaving him alone.

[Gustavo]

Gustavo: "I’m down for a fast day. I’m getting ready to play a game that ends in 36 hours so I need practice"
FOS: gustavo
This post just screams of suspicion. There's a difference between too fast & too slow.
How can you say this and think We can get something substantial in a fast day of 36 hours?
That's like saying "oh let's quickhammer." If you get lucky, you get a scum flip, if you get unlucky, you get a town pr flip.

What is suspicious about the truth? https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/17212

There are also other sites that play with really fast deadlines, they also have marathon games on this site don’t they? MafiaScum used to have like 20 minute deadlines.

Don’t fos me because something is foreign to you and for something that isn’t even AI.

Hopefully I’ll have a completed game soon tht shows that. I also have a completed game that shows fast days can not only reveal 1 scum, but 2.

Lastly, you shouldn’t be worries about losing PRs. You shouldn’t even depend on them at all. Have faith in your own abilities.

Now I have to write you off as scum or VI.

[Gustavo]

but has been holding back reasoning. I don’t like the way he backhanded my question about Tchill-BBT, but then criticized Lefty for backhanding his own question.

1. I don’t believe I’ve withheld reasons. Can you explain what you mean?
2. I don’t understand the next part. What backhanding have I done? I answered your question and I just pointed out lefty’s reasons were faulty and he was technically guilty of the same thing. Then again I’m not familiar with the term backhanding outside of tennis.

If anyone feels I haven’t explained something, they can always ask for clarification. I just did a training at work where we discussed active vs focused listening and asking clarifying questions is one of the keys to focused listening. Nobody has asked clarifying questions, not even yourself so it’s nit really fair to say I haven’t explained something if you haven’t asked for an explanation.

[Gustavo]

That performer wagon is coming along...

Let’s make it bigger.

VOTE: performer

As I said he’s either scum or VI and I’m perfectly fine with either lynch. If he’s town I’m not going to trust or want to hear anything he’s going to say after his display of bigotry.

[Gustavo]

He’s dislikes my opinion about game speed and using that as a reason to scum read me. That’s basically what bigotry is.

[Gustavo]

I feel we have enoigh on day 1 where information is lowest to decide on a lynch. Hopefully we don’t drag this out for a full 2 weeks.

[Gustavo]

It’s the day with the least information to work with.

[Gustavo]

Umm, what happened to the teacher wagon?

Link to your case please. I didn’t think it was a serious wagon.

[Gustavo]

Well I’m fine with either wagon but for now I’d rather go with performer.

[Gustavo]

Who do you want to lynch? Why haven’t you voted that person yet?

[Gustavo]

I am voting the person I wanna lynch.

But I doubt that’s gonna happen today so I’d compromise on a few. Teacher and Performer aren’t two of those.

You still have your rvs vote on me...

[Gustavo]

Well I’m fine with either wagon but for now I’d rather go with performer.

Why were you asking for a case if you're fine with the wagon anyway?

I wanted your reasons.

[Gustavo]

Pedit: @Gus I made a few points yesterday that should tell you my read on you and why I haven’t moved my vote. It’s not RVS.

A gut read was all I saw. I also don’t see you trying to convince others. If you are town you’re being lazy. At least try to convince others to vote me. Lazy players are the 2nd worst.

[Gustavo]

Why? What would that achieve?

It would help me know if you actually have some or not. You could easily just be BSing. You could also be scum not able to come up with any.

Town if asked probably should provide reasons. It’s better to be more open and transparent than not

[Gustavo]

Pedit: @Gus I made a few points yesterday that should tell you my read on you and why I haven’t moved my vote. It’s not RVS.

A gut read was all I saw. I also don’t see you trying to convince others. If you are town you’re being lazy. At least try to convince others to vote me. Lazy players are the 2nd worst.

I’ve got time. I’d rather let you continue wagon hopping on all the low hanging fruit so I have more to bury you with later. People are coming around already, I’m not sweating it.

That would imply I’ve wagon hopped on low hanging fruit which I haven’t done. You have nothing to bury me with, that’s your problem. I can explain my votes with reasons. You can’t do it.

[Gustavo]

You was rvs.
The teacher wagon was also rvs
Performer was my first serious vote and unless something happens, I’m not changing. M

So do you want to try again or you just going to keep making things up?

[Gustavo]

I mentioned yesterday specifically that your interactions with Invis yesterday

Invis voted for a terrible reason. What’s wrong with calling that out? Please explain

[Gustavo]

Also, asking BBT for reasons when you couldn’t be arsed to discuss any read with me yesterday is funny.

You asked for my town reads. Asking for reasons for a scum read is completely different

[Gustavo]

There’s nothing wrong with it. That’s kind of the point. As either alignment I’d expect you to call people out, it’s what and who you’re calling out that looks shady to me. Like Invis was a pretty easy target there and your call out is ~justified. But it also doesn’t make Invis scum.

this makes no sense. help me understand.

I was justified for calling him out but because i called him scum that makes me suspicious?

[Gustavo]

You never got back to me on that.

Well if we are being technical here, you never asked me for my scum reads.

[Gustavo]

You’re also still arguing from the logic standpoint, which I think is not very difficult to do as scum. You’re countering my points by pointing at actions that are supposed to be Townie. I’m much more concerned about lynching who I think is scum than seeing who is acting the most Town.

i'm a logical person, what can I say. If you are interested in lynching scum you have to A. find them and B. convince others to do that.

You haven't done either of those things yet. I get you think i am scum, but your reasons for scum reading me aren't very good. You just don't like my playstyle which is fine, I am not really interested in arguing with you about your reasons, but i will push you to do part 2 of the job of a townie. You already said you are fine sitting back which is lazy or it's scum trying to avoid actual scum hunting.

[Gustavo]

I feel your efforts have been more to look Town than actually solve anyone.

well i am sorry you see it that way. I think I am doing a fine job solving people. I have multiple town reads and a few leads on potential scum. I don't really have much to go on since it's day 1 and I hate day 1s so the faster we lynch somebody the quicker we can get into the good part of the game.

[Gustavo]

There's a lot of talk about players being jumpy & opportunistic, so check out [p]213[/p].

idk if I would call it opportunistic but anyone who liked performer's post 211 is probably not town

[Gustavo]

Nah, but I think you’re trying to miss the point on purpose. Invis was an easy target there, you don’t look bad at all for pushing on it. The vote did look bad, point being that the bad vote doesn’t make Invis scum and you’re showing a pattern of pushing LHF imo.

No I’m not missing the point. You were trying to imply I called him scum which I didn’t. I called him out on bad play. Is it bad town play or bad scum play, we won’t know yet. I don’t regret doing that and will continue to call out bad play. That’s how you scum hunt and generate discussion.

[Gustavo]

Lol, cmon man. You’re gonna argue semantics with me here? It’s pretty obvious I wanted some thoughts/reads from you; Town or scum. I left the door open for you to make them on your own and you never did.

Not arguing semantics. I was probably busy at the time and wasn’t really paying attention. I’m not the kind of person who just throws out all his reads. That’s why I questioned why wave did it. If you want something from me that you aren’t getting, you’re going to have to ask me directly.

[Gustavo]

This isn’t about playstyle.

But it is though. You are gut scum reading me because of my playstyle

[Gustavo]

So from my POV is it better to let you continue doing our own thing

Cool. Cause I’m death tunneling performer. Anyone got a problem with that go ahead and lynch me.

[Gustavo]

This isn’t about playstyle.

But it is though. You are gut scum reading me because of my playstyle

No. I’m SR you because the shots you’re taking are scummy imo. Stop making this about something it’s not.

But they really aren’t tho. I’m kind of disappointed more townies didn’t call it out. So we can agree to disagree.

[Gustavo]

It’s like your ignoring importance of interaction tells in favor of pointing out how you’re at least appearing to scum hunt. Scum gotta make pushes too and lynching scummy townies is the fast track to victory.

I’m a lot more interested in looking for who is taking the easy shots than lynching players that could just be scummy looking Town. Maybe that clashes with the meta on MS but I’m pretty against lynching townies because they’re liabilities. Lynching Town doesn’t advance my wincon.

I feel like you are scum reading me cause you tbink I called him out and called him scum for it. This post makes me think you even think I voted him for it. Your posts actually support that opinion.

The problem is I haven’t actually done any of that which means you scum read me because I called out bad play, something that you admitted town and scum can do. If town and scum can do something that makes it a null act or non alignment indicative. If you are town you have to find alignment indicative stuff. Scum reading people for non AI stuff is just poor play imo but hey you do you, I’ll do me

FTR. I’ve made 1 serious vote this game.

[Gustavo]

I feel like it's pretty bad that he attempted to apply pressure on me (when I was the leading wagon) but now that it's dissolved he kind of just dismissed it as nothing.

I don’t see where he tried to apply pressure to you when you were the leading wagon.

[Gustavo]

The problem is I haven’t actually done any of that which means you scum read me because I called out bad play, something that you admitted town and scum can do. If town and scum can do something that makes it a null act or non alignment indicative.

Ah, but herein lies the problem. Scum and town can do ANYTHING - I don't think there is anything that is exclusively alignment indicative. Therefore, the actual job of town is to decide whether something is MORE/LESS likely to come from town/scum and go from there.

Your play feels very robotic in this game. Not a fan at all.

Yes this game has gotten much harder, that’s why I like faster days. Scum like to manipulate things and it’s harder to do that at a faster pace. I don’t care if somebody scum reads me, but at least have a good reason and so far nobody has one.

As for my play? It’s probably because it is more robotic than how I normally play. I’m sorry if people don’t like it.

[Gustavo]

The whole 'meta post' was an attempt to attack/discredit me, no?

Or it could have been an attempt to understand the contradiction?

[Gustavo]

It could have.

But it felt more like an attack/angle to start pushing me from at the time.

That’s probably paranoia on your part. I’d wonder why you felt paranoid.

[Gustavo]

That wasn't really helpful;

Fluff

Fluff

Disliking of fluff

Vote.

Think I summed that post up pretty well?

I don’t think you are in any position to criticize somebody’s reasons when you have outright refused to give reasons yourself.

[Gustavo]

I think you're wrong.

you are entitled to think that but I know I am right.

[Gustavo]

I don’t think lefty has done anything to warrant a town read.

[Gustavo]

Gus hasn't done anything scummy. A few RVS votes. Voted Performer. I fail to see how lynching Gus is the best option.

Thank you. I don’t really need anyone defending me but I appreciate it.

[Gustavo]

sidenote not at all important to this game: why do ppl get so touchy when others make points in favor of them?

like im not "defending" gus there. im just saying we have better options. ppl say "i dont need defended" all the time which is a tad annoying when thats not my objective at all i just dont want to lynch town lol.

Speaking out against a lynch of somebody is a defense to me

[Gustavo]

Lefty “looking” for people taking the easy shots meanwhile that’s exactly what he’s guilty of

[Gustavo]

Performer should never make it past day 1. If he’s town he’s already proven he’s a liability

[Gustavo]

Unfortunately until performer is lynched I’ll probably be a liability. Death tunneling is extremely antitown

[Gustavo]

That wasn't really helpful;

Fluff

Fluff

Disliking of fluff

Vote.

Think I summed that post up pretty well?

I don’t think you are in any position to criticize somebody’s reasons when you have outright refused to give reasons yourself.

refusing to gibe reasons is one thing. Actually giving terrible reasons is another.

I’d rather have shifty reasons than none at all. At least you can evaluate the shifty ones and determine they are shitty. You can’t evaluate something that isn’t given.

[Gustavo]

Gus, can you explain your push on Performer please?

Sure. I’ll show you mine after you show me yours. After all I did ask first

[Gustavo]

Unfortunately until performer is lynched I’ll probably be a liability. Death tunneling is extremely antitown

can you not be like this?

I’ll death tunnel quietly if that makes it better.

[Gustavo]

scum also can't adjust their play if they don't know why they're being read a particular way.

But if you’re paying attention it’s easy to spot those changes.

[Gustavo]

Lefty “looking” for people taking the easy shots meanwhile that’s exactly what he’s guilty of

Playing the victim now?
How is pushing completely against the grain taking an easy shot?

I’m not playing the victim. I’m calling it as I see it. You aren’t pushing against the grain. Others have indicated they scum read me or don’t town read me. That’s going with the grain sir.

You implied I called somebody scum when I didn’t and you said you scum read me for something town could do.

That’s taking easy shots.

[Gustavo]

scum also can't adjust their play if they don't know why they're being read a particular way.

But if you’re paying attention it’s easy to spot those changes.

good point. I dont agree with your overall idea but still a good point.

tell me how town benefits from you death tunneling performer? because i actually agree with your "push" of performer. Problem is you know how pointless d1s are. You should also know why a death tunnel d1 is hysterical especially when you have a chance to begin to sort a new player list.

I don’t really think town benefits unless he flips scum. I just don’t see how he as town would dare make such an accusation so I’m assuming he’s scum. What’s most likely going to happen is he’s going to come back and double down and push me and then it will get completely toxic. Even if that doesn’t happen and he apologizes, it’s not going to change my view. I’m basically treating it like a scum claim.

I’ll still comment on other things and if I have to vote elsewhere to end the day I will, but he needs death. If he’s town I can’t trust him. Which is kind of ironic since I believe his avatar is something about working together

[Gustavo]

Lefty “looking” for people taking the easy shots meanwhile that’s exactly what he’s guilty of

Playing the victim now?
How is pushing completely against the grain taking an easy shot?

I’m not playing the victim. I’m calling it as I see it. You aren’t pushing against the grain. Others have indicated they scum read me or don’t town read me. That’s going with the grain sir.

You implied I called somebody scum when I didn’t and you said you scum read me for something town could do.

That’s taking easy shots.

I was the first to engage you about anything.

I called you a gut scum read yesterday and said exactly why. The way you’ve been arguing with my today doesn’t really change my original perception. You never voted Invis but you did attack in that instance and ended with a nice shade on their slot.

Invis was guilty of the very thing he was accusing somebody else for. Much like you are guilty of what you are accusing me of.

If calling that out is scummy, I’m fine with that but people should be holding players to a higher standard.

If I view invis for his push on Byron. Then your scum read on me is justified

If I tell invis he’s guilty of the things he’s scum reading Byron for (which is the truth) then you as town absolutely have I reason to scum read me. You as town should be agreeing with me.

“Ooh you make good sense, you must be scum” is fucking absurd.

[Gustavo]

And on that note I think it’s best if we go to our corners.

[Gustavo]

@gus whats the accusation and where is it? i just iso'ed performer and didnt see much.

His fos on me because I wanted to prepare for my game on MU and I like fast days.

[Gustavo]

I mean, it's a weak accusation, sure. But why does it make him scum?

I’m not sure it does but I personally don’t think town would make such an accusation. If I’m wrong and he is town then it’s an acceptable loss. He’s not going to be a useful asset to the game.

[Gustavo]

is fucking absurd.

And @bbt. This is why I’ve been robotic. I takes a lot of work to not curse and mind my manners. I’ve learned recently people on this site don’t like foul language and aggressive players.

[Gustavo]

Even when I naked voted you and antagonized you, you kind of just side-stepped me. I don't think you would do that as town.

I don’t really pay attention to naked votes. You wouldn’t tell me your reasons for your other vote so there was no point in asking why you voted me.

I also dropped you down from my town list back to null due to you being antagonistic. I’m surprised you didn’t pick up on that. I don’t feel you’ve been acting townie at all but you haven’t done anything scummy. It’s just you being an asshole. Now earlier you were an asshole to somebody else, but when I try to be polite and engaging you were an asshole to me. That’s not how town should play the game imo.

[Gustavo]

i reread gus vs lefty and now i'm just confused

So in a short time I was guy ping. Then you felt worse about lefty, and now you are confused?

This progression doesn’t make sense.


How about you verbalize it. Jot your thoughts about what you’ve read between us pointing out what you like and don’t like.

[Gustavo]

Invis, talk about how Lefty is looking worse from the Gus convo?

i was thinking that Lefty was accusing Gus of taking easy shots but i'm pretty sure that's not what he was saying?

That’s exactly what he was saying. He even admitted it

[Gustavo]

active lurking would be my second guess? refusal to participate in discussion but will comment when its over.

There was talk between Lefty/Gus about going against the grain/targeting easy players and how it makes you town/scum.

Then Invis comments and is like 'Oh yeah, Lefty looks bad from that Gus convo' when I don't think a single person (at least not active) is scum reading Lefty.

Was Invis making an attempt to go against the grain to look town?

And now the backtrack by him

[Gustavo]

lol at that list.

[Gustavo]

BBT/performer scumteam yea nay?

If performer is scum like I think it’s very possible

[Gustavo]

I mean, I'm not protecting anyone.

I'm trying to understand how someone with 5(?) posts can possibly be a leading wagon on page 18 of a game.

Its day 1. That’s exactly the kind of person that’s acceptable to lynch day 1 especially when their content is not town

[Gustavo]

Its day 1. That’s exactly the kind of person that’s acceptable to lynch day 1 especially when their content is not town

No, it isn't. We lynch scum, and we lynch scum who actually have content to analyze.

Performer either steps his shit up or he gets replaced. Lynching him D1 is sub-optimal play at the very least.

Well I feel pretty good he’ll flip scum. The content he’s posted so far is more than enough to know that.

[Gustavo]

Is anyone voting performer because he’s a low content player? If no your argument doesn’t water.

[Gustavo]

Nos’s vote is rvs which he’s left on
Tchill was to pressure somebody he didn’t have a read on
Mine is content based.
Wave said he thinks he’s scum so I assume it’s content based.

So I guess talk to nos or tchill

[Gustavo]

@Gus - Nos already defended his position on the wagon and has chose to stay on it.

Only TChill left to speak to.

Ok so I guess that’s 3 content related reasons. Your objection to it is unjustified

[Gustavo]

Is anyone voting performer because he’s a low content player? If no your argument doesn’t water.

like... Gus please be town lol.

I am. Trust me.

[Gustavo]

That’s why I was pushing for a fast day. We are like 3 days in and we have accomplished so much. We just need to lynch somebody

[Gustavo]

The issue with that is that some of us cant live on the site like you seem to. I sign up for games with longer deadlines for a reason; I can only commit to getting on and really thinking about the game like once or twice a day. Im on now and have a lot to catch up on. If someone wants to chat while I read up on what has happened in the last 250ish posts, Im around.

I get that. I’m sorry for pushing everyone. Invest in a smartphone though. It makes it easier to check in

I’ll try and step back now.

[Gustavo]

Where do you play with those deadlines?

[Gustavo]

It was very clear from my post I had a personal opinion about the speed of games. You are either scum manipulating that for an easy target or you are town completely disregarding my personal opinion and using that as a reason to suspect me which is a really shitty thing to do. I consider that bigotry, you can say it’s something else but whatever you call it, unacceptable is definitely what it is.

Now this may be antitown and I don’t really care since you couldn’t respect my personal opinion, but I won’t be interacting with you anymore. Hopefully you are lynched today so I don’t have to see your posts anymore.

[Gustavo]

Performer (4): Nosferatu, Tchill13, Gustavo, wavemode
Invisibility (4): Garmr, Performer, ByronVilla, BlueBloodedToffee
Gosrir Elmer Odels (1): Invisibility

how does this make you guys feel?

Considering how hard bbt was trying to get the teacher wagon back, I don’t like his vote on invisiblity. I feel
Like he completely abandoned it and went with a popular counter just to keep performer from being lead wagon.

[Gustavo]

Damn it just dawned on me bbt voted me after I voted performer.

[Gustavo]

That’s also interesting but could be nothing

[Gustavo]

A brief aside to Gustavo: In 224, you asked what I meant by backhanding in 213. I meant giving a halfhearted response to a question.

I didn’t give a half hearted response. I answered your question genuinely

[Gustavo]

I know you are but what am I.” See, for example 346, or compare posts 159 and 206 with 300 or 360.

Refusing to tell somebody my town reads is completely not the same as refusing to explain your reasons for scum reading somebody, especially when my iso already provides the answer to who I was town reading.

Also let me ask you something. If somebody blatantly lies about you and uses that to call you scum. Is that person more likely town or scum?

[Gustavo]

That’s also interesting but could be nothing

well it means they're not scum together.

How?

[Gustavo]

@teacher if gus said he had actual reasons for voting performer I missed that.

I’m not sure how you missed it.

[Gustavo]

teacher - a lot of those points you’re making about Gus just make him a hypocrite. Not sure I’d say it’s AI. To be clear, my issue with Gus so far is that his scum equity is high when thinking from the perspective that he’s been pushing a lot of ~Townies for easy/poor/opportunistic (insert adjective) reasons.

So you know everyone I’m pushing is town? Interesting...

[Gustavo]

Like I know I’m Town. Performer looks Townish. I think you could be Town. Invis maybe Town, least sure on them of the bunch. I know it’s lolD1 but looking at the big picture of the directions he’s moved, he looks bad imo.

Oooh way to play that scum slip off

[Gustavo]

Like I know I’m Town. Performer looks Townish. I think you could be Town. Invis maybe Town, least sure on them of the bunch. I know it’s lolD1 but looking at the big picture of the directions he’s moved, he looks bad imo.

Oooh way to play that scum slip off

And for the record out of those names I’ve only voted performer who NOBODY who is town can say his fos of me was townish. Calling out people for doing questionable things, regardless if somebody else thinks they look town is scum hunting whether you want to admit it or not.

Your accusations towards me were terrible and I called you on it, some of the things you accused me of aren’t even AI and there is at least one lie. So if you are supposedly town why is it scummy for me to call you on your bad okay?

The whole invisibility things is hilarious. His attack on Byron was the exact same kind of attack that Byron did. That makes him a hypocrite and I called him out on it. What’s really suspicious about that?

I’ll tell you. Absolutely nothing.

Oh and btw, you can only accuse me of going after “low hanging fruit” if I actually go after low hanging fruit.

Just because you town read somebody, doesn’t actually make them low hanging fruit.

Additionally by assigning the label “low hanging fruit” you are basically conceding their actions are questionable but because you town-read them they aren’t suspicious to you which makes my pushes on them completely justified from my POV since I don’t town read them and they are not in my town pile and I have to try and sort them. In order for me to sort them I have to examine their actions.

[Gustavo]

UNVOTE: Gustavo
VOTE: Gosrir

Talk about going after low hanging fruit.

[Gustavo]

We will agree to disagree. I asked what you thought of X and Y. You said you didnt find X or Y notable/worrying. That to me is a half-dodge;

You asked me what I thought of the interactions. I told you that I didn't see anything noteworthy and I asked you what I was missing. I responded to you and I asked you a follow up question which you never responded to. That isn't backhanding or half-dodging. You clearly saw something in that interaction and you wanted my thoughts on it, but I didn't see anything. I was actually town reading both of them.

youre saying that you didnt think it was important, but still didnt provide whatever thoughts you may have had

Given that I asked you a follow up question, this isn't an accurate interpretation of what happened. I could easily just say that because you didn't respond to my follow up question, your question to me was just surface level shit and you didn't really care about my thoughts. I'm not saying that but I very easily could. Now if you want me to answer your original question, I need you to answer my follow up. If you don't want my answer, why are you bringing it up again in an attempt to discredit me?

I dont see how Gosrir is low hanging fruit. Want to explain that?

I haven't seen anything scummy from him and lefty asks him a question and then follows up saying he doesn't even want to give him time to answer before voting him. To me that is attacking low hanging fruit. But this is interesting.

Maybe you should talk to lefty about this one. You have just shown that because one person thinks somebody is low hanging fruit that it doesn't mean everyone else things that OR that they actually are low hanging fruit. My actions toward lefty, performer, and invisbility were completely justified, even if lefty disagrees with them.

This is also part of my issues with you. I feel like youre playing surface level robotic but get very heated with sustained pressure (performer=bigot, lefty=blatantly lies). TBH, I disagree that there was any bigotry or any blatant lie,

You aren't the first to accuse me of playing surface level, so clearly I must be a surface level player and I'm ok with that. I am very rusty on this site and I was taught to question things that I find suspicous so that is what I do. I have already admitted to playing robotic, I am doing so on purpose. You have already seen glimpses of me when I don't play robotic (bigotry accusation and my cursing) so I have to play robotic to keep from pissing people off.

Now let's talk about Performer, clearly people are hung up on the word bigot but that doesn't change the fact that there is no way ANY town should scum read somebody for having preference to fast days. This is my 2nd game on this site where this is an issue and it's pissed me off. I am back on this site after a 3 year hiatus and remembered I hated the 2 week deadlines.

Now let's talk about Lefty, he DID lie as I see it.

Let's go to the tape.

As either alignment I’d expect you to call people out, it’s what and who you’re calling out that looks shady to me. Like Invis was a pretty easy target there and your call out is ~justified. But it also doesn’t make Invis scum.

"As either alignment i'd expect you to call people out" - translation - What you are doing isn't A.I. (I agree)

"it's what and who you're calling out that looks shady to me" - translation - I have a problem with you calling out Invisibility specifically - (I called Byron out for his bad push on BBT and he didn't say anything, but the moment i call invisibility for doing the same thing that makes me scummy? At least I am consistent, why isn't he? Why didn't he call me out for questioning byron? This makes him a hypocrite and he is doing it at my own expense)

"But it doesn't make Invis scum" - translation - You shouldn't have called him scum for it (I didn't call him scum and here is the lie or since I am being beaten up for poor word choices MISREPRESENTATION)

[Gustavo]

@ lefty - When did your town read of performer first begin and what did he do to earn it?

[Gustavo]

invis: The vote on bbt looked opportunistic. Just randomly sheeped byron at that point, later on pg 5 gets on the wagon on teacher.
VOTE: invisibility

and why doesn't performer get accused of going after "low hanging fruit" also?

where is the consistency in your accusations?

Invisibility (4): Garmr, Performer, ByronVilla, BlueBloodedToffee

Why haven't you accused these 4 people of going after low hanging fruit? I never voted invisibility and you accuse me of it, but these 4 are actually trying to lynch him

Garmr - You say he hasn't done anything AI but he is voting low hanging fruit...
Performer - I'd say he is your top town read considering you defense of him yet he is voting low hanging fruit...
Byron - You also have a town read
BBT - you have also said is a town read.

how do you justify this blatant contradiction on such a massive level?

[Gustavo]

ok here is another one for you lefty

teacher (5): Tchill13, BlueBloodedToffee, wavemode, Gustavo, Invisibility

Why am I guilty of going after low hanging fruit Teacher, but invisibility isn't?

We both jokingly joined the wagon. Why are you not being consistent?

[Gustavo]

damn, maybe I should go to the lemony snicket school of wolf hunting so I can be a consistent scum hunting player like you are...

[Gustavo]

What's this new slang (AI) you kids use on mafia these days.

Alignment indicative.

[Gustavo]

alignment indicative. Gustavo, I will respond fuller, when on a big screen but for now, I did answer your question in 224 the next time I got on -- I think you missed that it was bizarrely strong buddying for early game.

I didn’t notice any buddying.

[Gustavo]

damn, maybe I should go to the lemony snicket school of wolf hunting so I can be a consistent scum hunting player like you are...

I know you are being sarcastic about him being inconsistent, but scum tend to be the most consistent with their arguments as they care about their looks while town are more likely to hold people at different standards due to things players may of done or the personality of the player.

While mostly true not always. But let’s say lefty is town here. He still needs to be called out this. He basically has no reason to scum read me without re-evaluating all those reads.

[Gustavo]

gustavo's detailed analysis leads me to think he's town

To be fair i’d do the same as scum.

[Gustavo]

Hey guys. Didn’t you hear? Invis is low hanging fruit. Any attempt to smear his name should earn a scum read by lefty. Oh wait. He’s not being consistent with that. Nevermind. Carry on.

[Gustavo]

Finally got through the two biggest posters iso's. BBT and Gustavo. It took me this long to read up on gustavo.

Gosh gustavo all you have done is whinge.

1.You scum read people for calling your ideals scummy and say "if they are towns they are just village idiots" to justify a vote on them. You litrally tell invisble that bad logic doesn't = scum.

2.You constantly defend your own appearance even throwing shade at others to defend yourself (post 554).

3.You rarely show any reads on people unless they engage with you. Your not proactively looking outside your little sphere.

Your actions are really bad that I have trouble pulling alignment out of them. Your actions are so bad it causes doubts in my head that you are scum making it hard to see your alignment.

Also if you are fine with a early day and lynching a VI then why are you so opposed to lynching Invisibility. Because in your eyes invisibility is low hanging fruit is the difference because his town? Oh wait earlier his scum he only becomes low hanging fruit when you need to defend yourself. So invisibility is scum and low hanging fruit but it's scummy to vote him???

Can I ask in your words how do you think your actions are contributing towards town?

ok Let me respond to this

1. I assume you are referring to performer here, and I think this is kind of unfair. Performer is using something non game relevant and implying it is. He is basically saying my opinion of game speed is alignment indicative when it isn't. I have to make an opinion on him based on that. I don't see why town would do something like that so to me I think it is scum trying to cast shade on me. If I am somehow wrong, I absolutely believe he is a VI. This imo is different than the invisible situation. If performer thought I was scum or scummy for my random votes, then I could accuse him of bad logic. Using my opinion on game speed isn't bad logic, it is straight up stupidity as my opinion is completely unrelated to my alignment.

2. I don't really understand this one, and there is no 554. The closest is maybe 544 and I am not shading anyone in 544.

3. I am not really sure how to respond to this one. Early on I definitely gave some reads, and made posts which would lead people to infer my reads on others. If somebody doesn't want to assume, they can ask me what my read is on somebody. This i think is kind of my playstyle. Ideally i'd love to sit back and do my own thing and look for people who are being genuinely curious and who are just faking it. When lefty asked me who my town reads were, that I felt was faking it. If he read my iso he knows for sure byron and bbt are town reads so why ask that? Why is he interested in who I am town reading vs who I am scum reading? I also disagree with you that I am not looking outside of my little sphere, you are making an assumption based on what you see. I am also the kind of person who sees bad posts, I am going to speak up. I will definitely do that when they are about me but I also do them when they are about others (hence my posts questioning byron earlier, me doing it again with invisibility and with lefty)


Let's make one thing clear. I am not voting a VI. I am voting scum. Performer is 199% without a doubt scum in my mind and I already said I am not voting anyone else. I specifically said earlier i was death tunneling him. I guess you missed that in my iso?

My actions are helping town because I am voting to lynched confirmed scum. In the process of my death tunneling, I am still reading and responding to posts, I am still developing reads. Just because I don't want to vote invisibility doesn't mean I am not helping town. I don't even know if I scum read invisibility. There are 2/3 people i'd rather lynch over invisibility.

If performer didn't say what he said, this would probably be a completely different game. When I get angry the wheels fall off and Performer's posts definitely made me angry. Lefty's inconsistencies and calling me scum for going after "low hanging fruit" yet town reading everyone else going after the same people makes me angry.

[Gustavo]

Gus, you can't have content related reasons after 5 posts. It's absurd.

if you can have content related reasons after 1 post, you most certainly can have content related reasons after 5. Lack of content is still content. If a player makes 4 useless posts and a 5th that is incredibly bad, you can make a justified scum read on that person.

[Gustavo]

2.You constantly defend your own appearance even throwing shade at others to defend yourself (post 554).

that's quite a prediction

let's see if it comes true

it didn't

[Gustavo]

Talk about going after low hanging fruit.

In what world is GEO LHF?

already explained. He hasn't done anything scummy and lefty voted him before giving him time to answer the question he asked him. I don't see why town would do that.

can you answer me in what world is performer, teacher, invisibility, and lefty low hanging fruit?

because lefty claims they are all lhf yet I don't see you asking him those questions like you just asked me.

[Gustavo]

So I guess that’s a no?

[Gustavo]

Performer is for sure LHF, I don't think teacher was and I don't think Invis is either.

so why when I call somebody lhf you question me but when lefty calls teacher and invis lhf and used that to scum read me you stay silent?

that was a rhetorical question btw. If you were town you shouldn't have stayed silent.

[Gustavo]

Gus you’re a fucking crybaby bro lol

Cheap name calling isn’t necessary.

How about instead of doing that you explain your blatant contradictions? Or better yet go fuck yourself

[Gustavo]

Btw calling out bad play, contradictions, and questioning others not doing the same isn’t being a cry baby. It’s scum hunting.

If my reads are all wrong and yours are right that means you are scum and you have information I’m not privy to.

[Gustavo]

And you can’t honestly be town and think you are far superior to me when I’ve basically shown your reasons for scum reading me aren’t justified yet I still remain your top scum read and I’m town. You even admitted I had good reasons but because they are good I’m more likely scum lololol

[Gustavo]

So now I’m somehow a town read. Interesting 180 there.

[Gustavo]

Brilliant. I never thought about that. Next time somebody makes a slam dunk case showing I’m scum I’ll ignore the case, then I’ll ad hom them, and then I’ll call them town without any justification.

[Gustavo]

We’ll see what shakes out of GEO. I suggest you do work instead of playing the victim and whining about how you got treated so unfairly by big bad mean Lefty

Oh. I should do work?

[Gustavo]

are you completely aware of the game we're playing my dude?

Yes I am. Are you?

[Gustavo]

are you completely aware of the game we're playing my dude?

Yes I am. Are you?

ok but if you were completely lucid you'd know that opinions that you give are alignment indicative... This game is entirely based on judging people based on opinions they have on the game state and actions they make over perceived opinions

you're pretending like opinions and alignment are completely unrelated which is like the farthest thing from the truth.

I’m thinking you don’t know. Because the post I made and performer FOS’d me for is completely unrelated to my alignment and anyone who tries to use it against me is straight up scum imo.

[Gustavo]

Promoting a shorter deadline is not completely unrelated to alignment

Yes it is.

[Gustavo]

@bbt you said in that other game you want lurking to be dealt with. Performer is a lurker. He’s scummy and he’s making excuses not to post meanwhile town is tearing each other apart.

Vote performer. He’s been no value to town and he’s basically showed his hand that he’s scum.

[Gustavo]

He also has not shown himself to be scum

He most definitely has. But I just remembered you’re probably scum so I knew that was a Hail Mary. If town you’d vote a lurker and not make excuses for them.

[Gustavo]

Promoting a shorter deadline is not completely unrelated to alignment

Yes it is.

obviously you're delusional. You have no sense of objectivity whatsoever. Have fun with this game.

I’m not delusional. Personal preference isn’t alignment indicative at all. If you or anyone else thinks it is then those are the people who are delusional.

[Gustavo]

I’m down for a fast day. I’m getting ready to play a game that ends in 36 hours so I need practice

i'm down for not doing that

Invisibility. If somebody fos’d you for your comment disagreeing with you, you wouldn’t think that person was scum?

If I voted or fos’d you for disagreeing with me, you would just ignore it?

[Gustavo]

Then go ahead and lynch me. By my count at least half the player list is playing sub optimally.

[Gustavo]

Like saying “This dude wants to push for a shorter deadline/hurry the Day and is actively wagoning people with that objective for little to no reason. I think that’s suspicious.” Is perfectly fucking reasonable.

Except that isn’t what he said but you’ve been twisting the truth all game so I guess keep it up.

[Gustavo]

How can you say this and think We can get something substantial in a fast day of 36 hours?
That's like saying "oh let's quickhammer." If you get lucky, you get a scum flip, if you get unlucky, you get a town pr flip.

His suspicion is completely based on his ignorance. There are at least 3 sites that have games that utilize days less than a week. At least 2 I know of have games shorter than 48 hours. One of them being mafia universe which interestingly enough has a ton of current and former mafiascum members. Clearly these sites do ok with shorter deadlines.

This site also does marathon games and I’ve seen people want them more often.

Him not understanding why somebody wants a faster day phase is why he is suspicious of me.

If he actually mentioned my rvs vote hopping as a reason then maybe he could have sounded more genuine but he didn’t. His suspicion is strictly based on my preference of faster days and him not understanding why somebody would want that.

[Gustavo]

That’s my take away from it.

That’s fine. But since he never mentions my vote history, your take on it is wrong. You are making an assumption.

[Gustavo]

Tchill are you an alt?

[Gustavo]

Anyway I’m all alone obviously and that’s fine. Not worth continuing the conversation but like I said I’m not changing my vote until he’s gone.

[Gustavo]

I will never have an alt.

Ok just checking. You said you thought you knew me.

[Gustavo]

I’m pretty sure who you think I am cause every game I’ve played it has come up and it’s the same person. At this point I don’t even care anymore but I left the site about 3 years ago. This site has changed a lot during that time obviously and if my reads are wrong then I’m just rusty or stupid.

[Gustavo]

I’ll try again to stop posting for a while. I’ve been working from home cause I’m sick and have had extra time on my hands. This weekend my son has tournaments so I should not be online.

[Gustavo]

Pointing out other people rubs me the wrong way. It's double edge, one edge is "these people aren't considered scummy why am" I and the other is "you should scum read these people" Both messages are extremely bad and when you scratch the surface a little you can find plenty of reasons to treat why people would be different.

Pointing out suspicious behavior is something I’ve done all game though. You have to admit I make an excellent point in that post. I made such an excellent point lefty ignores it and drops his scum read on me. It’s kind of frustrating you’re the only one to react to it and somehow your interpretation is that I’m scummy, not him.

I’ve lost all hope in this game. Town would have been better off speeding through day 1 like I suggested. Now I’m fairly confident this game is going to end up like my scum game that just ended. Perfect scum victory.

[Gustavo]

So you keep calling invisibility a low hanging fruit

I don’t think I ever called invisibility low hanging fruit. Lefty said I was scum because of my attacks on low hanging fruit. One of the low hanging fruit was invisibility. I never even voted him, I merely pointed out that he was guilty of the same thing he was accusing Byron of doing. That was me attacking low hanging fruit apparently

But he’s town reading (or was) everyone who was voting invisibility.

You tell me how that makes sense. If lhf is low hanging fruit and going after him is suspicious, why haven’t we heard lefty attack the other poeple voting him?

It was immediately after me pointing that out that lefty dropped his push on me and resorted to adhom attacks.

Who gets backed into a corner and starts making it personal? Town or scum?

[Gustavo]

But I wasn’t doing the action I was accused of...

[Gustavo]

If pointing out the contradictions of a player making a false against me and not doing it to the people actually guilty of it is terrible logic, then I never want to use correct logic.

[Gustavo]

You are confused because I’m not even referring to bv/bbt. I was referring to the ludicrous fos by performer.

But ignoring that fos. What has he done this game? Nothing. He has now promised content today but he hasn’t posted anything yet and the day is coming to an end, plus he’s v/la on weekends which means he will post something on Monday about needing to catch up (which he has already admitted to being behind).

I literally just won by the whole scum team lurking. Performer and tommy are straight up lurking, and your activity could be better also.

Nobody wants to lynch my scum reads so idk what else to do

[Gustavo]

At this point, do you have any other scumreads?

Lefty and bbt

[Gustavo]

I don’t dislike wave, nos, and garmr.

[Gustavo]

I don’t think performer knows what NAI is or means.

[Gustavo]

Link me your scum game you just finished. Not because I think you're scum anymore, but for learning reasons.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76303

[Gustavo]

Inactivity isn't alignment indicative though?

While true, because so many townies are inactive scum can use that to their advantage and be inactive also. Go look at that scum game I linked. It’s very similar to how this game is progressing. Town argued and scum hid in the background but some townies did also.

I really feel like if we set a precedence that low activity isn’t going to be tolerated, scum will have to step up their game. But nobody ever wants to do that so inactivity will always be an issue.

[Gustavo]

@tommy are you boon?

[Gustavo]

Gus: My point is that BV's & Performer's actions were very similar in spirit. You defended the former & lost your shit over the latter.

?

I may be confused. I don’t remember bv doing anything similar to what performer did.

[Gustavo]

Not me

[Gustavo]

Cause I’m only voting performer until he’s lynched.

[Gustavo]

He’s kind of useless. He’s definitely trolling. Reminds me of Nm or maybe boon. Nothing really give me a scum read, I’m definitely not compromising when there is 8 days left. Y’all didn’t want a fast day so now y’all can deal with a long day like you wanted.

[Gustavo]

If I don’t scum read him but don’t town read him, common sense would mean what?

[Gustavo]

Sorry didn’t realize this was a newbie game. I thought experienced players could figure things out like that

[Gustavo]

Sorry didn’t realize this was a newbie game. I thought experienced players could figure things out like that

experienced players vote null slots because information is more important than acting out on personal grudges, but here we are.

No experienced players vote scum reads.

[Gustavo]

Cops/vigs investigate/take out null reads

[Gustavo]

Sorry didn’t realize this was a newbie game. I thought experienced players could figure things out like that

Says the guy death tunneling on d1

I’m death tunneling a scum read though. It’s not time to compromise

[Gustavo]

@Gus: Have you gone back to look at BV's scumread on BBT?

No but from what I remember bv’s scum read was for being an ass. I also didn’t defend bv like you say I did.

[Gustavo]

From BV: 107
From you: 132, 162

Just because I town read somebody doesn’t mean I defended his actions

[Gustavo]

You defended him from being lynched. Are you just trying to be contrarian, or have you forgotten what we're arguing about?

You are trying to compare me thinking bv’s stupidity about bbt being an ass is AI and pv’ fos’ing me for my opinions of day one are somehow similar and they aren’t.

That’s what I thought we were talking about but clearly you tbink were talking about something else.

[Gustavo]

Gus: They are similar. They're essentially the same.

No it isn’t. His read was based on how bbt was playing. It’s understandable for somebody to scum read somebody for being an ass.

Performer fos’d me based on my personal opinion and not by my play.

Completely different

[Gustavo]

It boiled down to whether town should give out every piece of information or not.

Right. He wanted bbt to put info and bbt didn’t want to iirc. That’s being an ass.

That’s different than my opinion of day 1.

If you disagree that’s fine. This conversation is basically a rehash of what’s been discussed before just with a new stupid spin on it.

[Gustavo]

I mean after the claim.

The claim is the last ditch attempt to save themselves. After that, it's YOLO. Give away the least amount of information as possible.

I think I asked Invis for reads. If town, why would you not make that your priority. Why 'lol' post instead?

I refuse to believe you can town read Invis off of his posting after his claim.

If invis flips town, consider this a scum claim. He’s refusing to even reconsider that he’s wrong which implies he knows invisibility is town.

[Gustavo]

Something real fishy is going on and if anybody wants to flash wagon Byron or Gus I'm absolutely 100% interested in doing that.

Please do. Because nobody wants to lynch my scum reads and if invisibility gets lynched and flips town I’m done with this game.

[Gustavo]

I already did

[Gustavo]

I think gus attitude is pretty shit. He should stop being a Debbie downer.

Even if my attitude is shit, I’m not compromising on somebody I don’t scum read so what exactly do you want me to do?

Put a wagon on performer, lefty, or bbt and I’ll be happy as a school girl.

[Gustavo]

Idk what that means. Probably another insult

[Gustavo]

v/la couple of days. Family emergency

[Gustavo]

Gus is my shakiest read.

What about invisibility is a compromise lynch? There's LEGITIMATE reason to believe he is scum.

If you understood what a compromise and who my scum reads are, you’d know how invisibility would be a compromise lynch for me.

I haven’t even seen a solid scum case on him, that’s troubling.

[Gustavo]

Sheesh. How are Bbt and lefty scum? Yet you refuse to lynch a legitimate scum candidate? I don't understand.

You aren’t paying attention. I’ve explained both reads previously. Not to mention the scum slips lefty has done. It’s clear nobody is reading my posts, you’ve proved that with your questions.

[Gustavo]

Sigh.

VOTE: invisibility

[Gustavo]

Lefty - accused me of something I wasn’t doing (attacking invisibility who he town read and felt was low hanging fruit) yet town read the 4 people who were trying to lynch invisibility. He was scum reading me yet saying my reads are terrible (if I’m scum I can’t have bad reads) and said he’s going to laugh at me post game (again shows he has inside knowledge and implies he knows I’m town) then once I expose his huge contradiction he stops scum reading me and his play noticeably changes. Not to mention at least 2 cases of ad hom attacks and he never responds to the points I made about his contradictions. He just pretends like it didn’t exist but so did everyone else so
Whatever.

Bbt isn’t more of gut, this isn’t his town play imo. He also said he’s anti lurker and I have him a chance pointing out Howe performer was lurking and he defended performer saying he hasn’t lurked which is clearly not true.

[Gustavo]

I’m probably going through replace out. The fact every player ignored an awesome post by me showing just how scummy lefty has been acting shows nobody really cares about finding scum. Only one person referenced it and tried to use that against me.

That shows players just not caring and I care too much.

[Gustavo]

GG

[Gustavo]

Hell of a win for scum that a NM replaced a Mason.

Qft

[Gustavo]

Would like to read the mason thread.

Same

[Gustavo]

I’m sorry for my play. I’m definitely adjusting myself going forward. Going to take a more laid back approach and put my faith into others more.