Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[LuckyOtter]

Lastly anyone who claim potato is auto scum since it obvious I am the only potato in this game

Fake potato with scum cream and fakin' bits

VOTE: TheFuzzylogic99

[LuckyOtter]

VOTE: EeveeLution Army

You say you are playing as town (61) but there is not enough play to back this up. It's an empty post, like all of your posts so far (which is fine early on, unless you try to pretend that just because you are posting it means you are participating).

Why be so careful about your vote? Why not use it to put some pressure somewhere and contribute to discussions?

[LuckyOtter]

FTR I'm OK voting in a deadline eventually, but maybe not right away since we're all still figuring out how the mechanics will affect gameplay.

Early sl's: Mom, Eevee and Wis.

So basicallyyyyy

Scum is doing a hell of alot of unwarranted theatre game start. Got it!

The interactions among you three are minimal. Sure, they don't read very svs, but it's not impossible. More importantly, this is a really bad reason to try to discredit reads, it seems to me. Just because they don't all seem to work together doesn't mean that all the reads are bad.

That said, I don't like HF's vote on momrangal either. He bases it on an innocuous reaction and what I interpreted to be a RVS vote on wisdom. Meanwhile, he actually has a valid concern about Eevee--not the point about having a vote on the person who posted the least, but the point about not offering any other suspicions concerning other players. So HF, why is this less worthy of a vote than your vote based on momrangal's very first post?

[LuckyOtter]

@Eevee, wrt 77...as much as you value your vote if you WERE to vote it would be me, the person who's possibly posted the least? You've no suspicions up to this point from what content there is from others?

I just gave who id most likely vote for if i voted at that point in time

You missed the more important part of the question. Do you have any reads so far?

[LuckyOtter]

Y'all. Can we get some more votes on Eevee please?

Eevee, my last post was directed at you.

[LuckyOtter]

Here's why:

- early posts: Does more defending of not voting in RVS than doing something else to advance discussion.
- the exception is post 59, where Eevee calls Wisdom's post 58 contradictory. But this doesn't go anywhere.
- says if pressed to vote they would vote HF "cause his only post is a rvs with nothing really about it". So why HF and not, say, FuzzyLogic who had not contributed anything by this point either? And more importantly, why not do a little more questioning of people to get some information in order to be able to place a good vote, if that's the concern?
- So HF asks Eevee to provide some reads, and that is ignored.
- I point this out, and it is ignored again.
- When pressed, Eevee says they're "trying to get more interactions with certain people," but the only interactions I can see are the short interaction with Wisdom early on, a clarification question to Hiraki (115), and a mostly defensive question to Dunn (119).

So, several posts with very little substance. When there is questioning, it's pretty soft. I read all of this as scum trying not to make waves rather than a careful townie.

[LuckyOtter]

No. I'm not a huge fan of the idea of relying on meta unless it reveals something super obvious. But I looked at your previous game together, and I understand why you asked this. Yes I see a similar play style in the game you played together, which resulted in a mislynch, but in other games in which Eevee was town I see a similar posting style (short and sparse posts), but the questioning is at least more pointed. All of this to say that I don't read anything from Eevee's meta that is a huge red flag to me, so I don't feel inclined to let it influence me too much here, and I'm not about to ask Eevee or anyone to defend their meta play style(s).

So does Eevee just get a free pass from you, Wisdom? Do you read him as genuinely trying to interact with others (see posts 115 and 119) to get information?

[LuckyOtter]

SirCakez, I thought I pretty clearly summarized it at the end--Eevee reads to me as trying not to make waves by making posts with little to no substance, ignoring requests to provide reads, and asking softball questions. Scum benefits by appearing to be active while not drawing too much attention to themselves. I honestly don't know how to make this clearer.

[LuckyOtter]

Time to reevaluate.
I’m still wary of Eevee but his recent posts are better and this wagon isn’t going anywhere. Also, there are others who are contributing minimally. Actually, Fuzzy hasn’t contributed anything of substance. Most recently:

Tommorow i should be able to post better posts...away from my main computer atm.

if we get to two weeks and we are getting nowhere than i prob will vote for a day limit. i dont want the game to meander and people loose interest.

Sorry for not posting more...still trying to figure things out.

This feels off. There are two different excuses—away from the computer/trying to figure things out. Which is it? Why say both?
--
Pine, why do you think Wis is town?
--

So would people vote in deadline or no?

Momrangel, what does post 93 mean?

VOTE: Wisdom

Mmmm...

That's probably a bad vote but what do I know?

Then why are you still voting Wisdom?

Also it means fits reads are bad which isn't entirely surprising but what is, is the fact that he is not really even hunting.

What do you mean by this?
--
Current reads: Fuzzy feels scummiest. Leaning scum on momrangal. Fitz, Hiraki, and Dunn leaning town.
VOTE: FuzzyLogic

[LuckyOtter]

Math, what makes Pine and ArcAngel clearly town?

Also interested in your reads on momrangal and eevee.

--

SirCakez, does anything from Fuzzy feel genuine to you? It doesn't to me. If you have meta or something that can help me understand by all means share.

[LuckyOtter]

I already did. If you're legit busy with stuff, fine. But you said you were 'still trying to figure things out', which didn't feel genuine since you already had another excuse. And now, it looks like you weren't thinking about things after all.

It's mostly a gut read but it's all I have to go with until you post some actual content.

[LuckyOtter]

I haven't been feeling townWisdom here too hard either.

Why not?

--
I feel like I'm stalled waiting for Fuzzy to do something, which isn't helping the game. So to try to keep things moving:

ArcAngel, do you have a read on Fitz?
--
Pedit: Momrangal, I was just about to ask you about this again. I don't understand your reaction to my question in 177. Do you have a read on Dunn?

[LuckyOtter]

Momrangal, I also don't get your vote on mathblade. What's his scum motivation for calling you potential scum afraid of Wisdom?

[LuckyOtter]

SirCakez why a townlean on Momrangal?
--
Math, how do you figure me+Fuzzy makes sense?
--
I've honestly been avoiding a read of Fitz and Wisdom because I haven’t been able to make sense of their interaction. So I sat down to slog through it and here's what I see:

Fitz starts off with some reads/questions in post 90:
1. Vote on Momrangal based on RVS vote (later says it's gut)
2. Sus on Eevee based on choosing Fitz as possible target when other options are available
3. Sus on Wisdom for his Koki vote, asking what it was for if not for fluffing

Wisdom calls out some valid concerns. Some of Fitz's original reasoning is irrelevant (e.g. the fact that eevee chose the person who posted the least). However, not all of it is. In 131, Fitz makes an effort to explain his suspicions better, and does OK explaining his mom and eevee reads. I really didn’t like his initial mom vote, but his justification here is fine. The eevee read is similar to what I’ve been saying.

His Wisdom read doesn’t actually totally make sense to me. He says he SRs Wisdom because of Wisdom voting Koki for fluff posts, which Wisdom thinks is NAI. But Wisdom never said that as far as I can tell. (If I’m missing it, please point it out to me!) Wisdom only said that Koki felt like a better vote. Fitz ought to understand this if he is defending his initial gut vote on mom.

Wisdom, from this point, seems to focus mostly on the part that concerns him and what he perceives as suspicion based solely on lack of reasons. There’s some selective quoting concerning eevee (134). Fitz responds, and Wisdom just kind of shuts down (150). That’s the part that bothers me the most out of all this.

Fitz is either misinterpreting or misrepresenting Wisdom’s Koki vote. I’m leaning toward the former.
Wisdom isn’t making the effort to hear Fitz out, which could be because Fitz is not always totally clear in his explanation, because of frustration of being misrepresented, or because he’s scum and a Fitz mislynch is more likely if things are left unclear. It’s the post 150 that makes me feel inclined to think the latter, but I need to reread Wisdom in isolation, which will have to happen later.

[LuckyOtter]

Well then, Fuzzy, what have you figured out?

[LuckyOtter]

Pedit: Momrangal, I was just about to ask you about this again. I don't understand your reaction to my question in 177. Do you have a read on Dunn?

It means what I said. You brought up a good point, made a good observation and it shows that you are thinking critically.

An observation no one else seemed to really think anything about. Even after I reposted, only one other person had made a comment on it.

Up until this point however, wisdom is featured in many people scum reads and in a few of those people I could also be scum (math,fitz) depending on how things go. I'm pretty disappointed in the lack of reactions to it, but honestly the lack of them also got my brain churning

This bit is actually pretty informative and changes some of my reads. So here's the sequence of events:

- momrangal votes Wisdom early on
- Dunn votes Wisdom (95)
- momrangal says "that's probably a bad vote" (98) and meanwhile doesn't change hers
- I ask her why she doesn't change her vote
- She says this is a good question (which read to me as possibly sarcastic) and asks others to comment (177), and reposts this when it doesn't get any reactions (223)
- Math is the only one to pick up on it and uses it as a chance to paint me as trying to protect Wisdom (235)
- Momrangal says she meant it that it was a good question and that she was fishing for reactions.

First, I'm buying momrangal's claim. I can't see scum highlighting their own inconsistency in this way, just to bait someone (and to what end?). Seems like a high risk/low reward strategy.
So then the question is, what to make of the lack of reactions? I would think if momrangal were on scum's lynch agenda, they'd have pounced on this. Why not take the opportunity to at least throw some suspicion her way? The only answer that comes to mind is if doing so would be a detriment to their actual lynch agenda, and this would be the case if their agenda included Wisdom. If you're trying to get Wisdom mislynched, it makes no sense to draw any attention to bad votes on him.

So who has Wisdom on their agenda: Fitz, Math, Kokichi, and Hiraki.

Now, Math did draw attention to 223, but does so in a way that still paints Wisdom as scum, and as I said, paints me as protecting him so adds to his story.

I'm having a hard time reading Math, though. I'm still getting hard scum vibes from Fuzzy, and I don't care what Math says, I don't think scum are going to bus their partner so hard on D1 when it's not really warranted. It's not like Fuzzy is the obvious lynch today (his wagon has consistently met resistance), so hard bussing your scumpartner seems like a bad move in terms of cost/benefit ratio.

Fitz was actually voting momrangal (still for a bad initial reason, imo), while never pointing out her inconsistency wrt voting Wisdom. Maybe Fitz sees momrangal as a liability to being able to push Wisdom later. Seeing that the momrangal vote is highly criticized, he moves to the eevee wagon. Why not Fuzzy? How could you possibly still be forming an opinion on Fuzzy when he's done literally nothing this game?

I don't have good reads on Hiraki or Kokichi, so I need to take the time to do this (will have to do later tonight).

I think there is scum within {Fuzzy, Fitz, Math, Kokichi, Hiraki}.

Fuzzy whatcha thinkin about?

[LuckyOtter]

@Fitz

I included Hiraki and Kokichi because I think Wisdom is town and I think one or two (probably not all three) scum has been pushing his wagon, which makes them candidates.

Kokichi's Wisdom vote is not very strong, but it's early so there's not as much to go on. I get that. But the subsequent tunneling on Wisdom adds nothing new, nor does Kokichi do much else to move the game along by questioning others. The only poking he does in another direction (without being prompted) is toward Math in 207, questioning the eevee wagon, and throwing shade at me for my scumlist. There is easily scum motivation for each of these.

I've had an early townread on Hiraki, mostly for this:

TheBrie is weird but it's not her normal scum meta. That perturbs me for two reasons:

1) It's almost as if she's trying NOT to fit into any meta - this is null to an extent.
2)

There's way too much tryhard in it all.

For example:

You're not the only one feeling something off about Kokichi.

Not strong enough to say scummy, especially for someone I don't know, but something.

I feel the same way about TheBrie right now but at least I can articulate it. It's Page 4. I also have no clue what this "strange feeling" about Kokichi is.

What I liked at the time was the part in bold, because I shared the sentiment. The meta business is nonsense. Why mention it?

I'm still not sure what to make of his asking Math why he is being scumread when they share reads (and Kokichi's interest in this as well). Asking why you're being read, sure, seek out a justification, but this feels more like Hiraki saying "you shouldn't suspect me because we share reads." As far as I can tell, you only shared a handful of reads, and you had opposite opinions of Arc. This didn't seem warranted.

Otherwise, I'm not getting a lot of scummy vibes, and I think Hiraki has a fair point concerning Arc, who has tunneled on Hiraki and not offered much else that is constructive unless prompted.

Current top lynch choices for today would be Fuzzy or Kokichi.

Hiraki, what do you make of Fuzzy?

Arc, who do you see as potential partners of Hiraki?

Eevee, have any reads other than Pine?

[LuckyOtter]

@Math

It's process of elimination and finding a lynch pool. Not at all arbitrary if you actually read my post and made an effort to understand it.

If you think I'm wrong, help me understand instead of being dismissive. Your reaction reads scummy.

[LuckyOtter]

@Math

It's process of elimination and finding a lynch pool. Not at all arbitrary if you actually read my post and made an effort to understand it.

If you think I'm wrong, help me understand instead of being dismissive. Your reaction reads scummy.

I understand the process. However the statement itself IS the problem.

You said you think there is scum in

• .
  
  However unless that list is exclusionary, meaning you townread everyone else that is not the case.
  
  The questions and other things on top only solidify that Otter isn’t actually scumhunting. Otter posts a lot of words yes but one post has no impact on the next. If the lynch pool was actually true he wouldn’t have Hiraki in his scum pool and townread him for a post before he got added to the lynch pool. The mental gymnastics is insane.
  
  
  Dayvig Otter and Fuzzy
  
  
  Gotta go. Look forward to your flips.

It's pretty simple, really. I think scum is pushing a Wisdom lynch. Hiraki was pushing a Wisdom lynch, so he goes in the scumbasket. I do a reread and based on content I'm not so confident he is scum, so he leaves the scumbasket. Not very difficult to understand unless you are deliberately trying to misrepresent what I'm doing so that you can dismiss it.

Other than the fact you have it out for me, and that Fuzzy is clearly a good lynch, do you have a specific reason for saying the Eevee wagon is shit? Your only mention of it before is that you don't get it.

--
Fuzzy. WRT 293: Math was quoting a game in which you were in fact scum. So how is it a problem that he reads you as scum for similar behavior here? This whole post of yours is just "I'm just easy lynchbait y'all, don't read too much into it"
294-295: Fair enough question. But, with all that has happened now, is this really all you have to contribute? Do you have any reads yet?
--
Eevee, why don't you think Fuzzy is scum?
--
Pedit: Enjoying the irony of the lurkiest lurker getting an infraction in Succinct Mafia.

[LuckyOtter]

@Sircakez Same potato bullshit at start. Same either lack of catchup/understanding while not contributing as here as a matter of conscience I can't allow this same pattern to exist.

The "here" is a hyperlink. What did you think he was referring to?

Math's confirmation bias against me and lack of willingness to try to understand my pov is getting annoying, but can't see the scum motivation for trying to set me up as a mislynch when he could have just left me as an easy NK.

[LuckyOtter]

Eevee, not sure how Fuzzy could possibly think he's doing his best here. Maybe there's some meta I'm unaware of but he's contributed absolutely nothing.
I guess the better question is why you feel Pine is scum. Is it still because of his read on Wisdom or anything else?
--
Fuzzy why are you not voting anyone? Have any reads yet?
--
Math: "Then demoralizes the Fuzzy wagon saying resistance exists don’t go there no."

I don't think engaging with you is super productive right now, but this is a blatant misrep of what I was saying.
--
SirCakez, I'm mostly just trying to feel people out and making notes to myself. Sometimes I want to see if people are consistent in their statements and responses, if there's any reasoning behind certain statements or votes. For example my question to Fitz re: still forming an opinion on Fuzzy. His response didn't really strike me as meriting a follow-up.

Other questions are legitimately out of curiosity or seeking other points of view. For example, when I asked you about your townlean on momrangal, I really didn't know what you were seeing that I wasn't. When I asked Pine why he was reading Wisdom as town it was a bit of both. Pine's statement was completely unsubstantiated, so I wanted him to clarify, and if he had a good reason to townread him I wanted to know what I was missing.

I could probably be more focused in my questioning, but I feel like this game keeps stalling and I'm just trying to do something to keep things moving in different directions so that we can sort things out. I'll try to do better, but honestly there's just a lot of lurking and bickering going on here and it's getting frustrating.
--
On that note, how do we feel about voting in a deadline?

[LuckyOtter]

I admit that I have mostly just floated along this game and have not done much except maybe threw in a few mediocre posts at best. No way is this my best.

Okay so Math thinking is that I am scum and that my scum partners are pushing for my lynch as they did in the Three game. I kinda get why he is being paranoid here since I burnt him badly as scum. I think that he is ignoring the possibility I am town and I am am just getting run up by scum ie

I am playing as lynchbait this game

. Not asking you to town read me Math but just consider that I might be town here/ Basically he being paranoid as anything. Honestly this kinda makes me think Math is town here, Maybe he over estimating my scum game, Not sure. I thinking Math is town.

I think Pine is playing layed back game. Its kinda wierd that he think Math is scum when Math is the one who is really pushing me as scum.

I dont get Wisdom reads...... It just seems like he scum reading people . I am confused his votes on Fritz and me. Kinda feel like he just going with the crowd

Otto.....

I just dont feel confident in voting for a players atm

.......

( would be funny if Math is scum this game and I get burnt .....after the Ending in Three game it would be a fair turn around)

The bolded bits don't line up:
- 'Sorry y'all I'm not doing my best'
- 'But what if I'm just playing as lynchbait?' (Contradicts previous statement: If he meant to be playing as lynchbait he'd have nothing to apologize for)
- 'Don't feel confident in voting someone atm'
I didn't just ask why he wasn't voting anyone, but also if he had any reads yet. His statement on Pine's playstyle is NAI (and Pine already addressed it). Light shade thrown at Wisdom but is pretty hedgy. If he were trying to play as lynchbait, we shouldn't have to ask him who he thinks the scum are running up his wagon. If he's not trying to play as lynchbait, why even bring it up as a possibility?

I have more thoughts on this but want Fuzzy to respond to Dunn first.

[LuckyOtter]

vote for deadline

[LuckyOtter]

Searched the thread for mentions of Fuzzy.

Arc, you haven't mentioned Fuzzy since his early wagon. What are your thoughts now?

Hiraki, you haven't mentioned Fuzzy at all. Thoughts on him?

Koki, if you shared my thoughts on his last post, why aren't you voting him?

[LuckyOtter]

Hiraki, you still haven't offered a read on Fuzzy, though.
--
Fuzzy:

1) Lynchbait is my basic operating system. I am not trying to be lynchbait .

Then why ask math to consider that you are trying to be lynchbait? :

I think that he is ignoring the possibility I am town and I am am just getting run up by scum ie

I am playing as lynchbait this game

.

--

2) Maybe you should actually read your post. In337 you specifically asked why I did not vote for anyone ..as well for asking for my reads

I know I did, and I said so:

The bolded bits don't line up:
- 'Sorry y'all I'm not doing my best'
- 'But what if I'm just playing as lynchbait?' (Contradicts previous statement: If he meant to be playing as lynchbait he'd have nothing to apologize for)
- 'Don't feel confident in voting someone atm'

I didn't just ask why he wasn't voting anyone, but also if he had any reads yet.

His statement on Pine's playstyle is NAI (and Pine already addressed it). Light shade thrown at Wisdom but is pretty hedgy. If he were trying to play as lynchbait, we shouldn't have to ask him who he thinks the scum are running up his wagon. If he's not trying to play as lynchbait, why even bring it up as a possibility?

I have more thoughts on this but want Fuzzy to respond to Dunn first.

This feels like you're trying to discredit my argument that you've made a major contradiction.

Also, the light throwing of shade at Pine without actually reading him is bad.

[LuckyOtter]

Math...why is fuzzy scum aside from meta?

Fuzzy...why aren't you doing anything? ffs. Who's scum. Who are you inclined to vote?

Because Fuzzy is blatantly not hunting and when he does try to post something it comes out as obvious bullshit.

^^^

Y'all. Just do an ISO of Fuzzy. He only posts to fend off his wagon. Not once does he make a post to do any sort of probing elsewhere in the game. There are two viable counterwagons that he could even comment on, but doesn't. He offers lukewarm reads of the people on his wagon, and even then, he didn't offer any read on me until his last post after I pointed out the contradiction in his previous post. And about this, he says:

Otter seems like trying way to hard to find contradiction. Part of me feels like he is scum trying to lynch me. I guess he could be town just scum hunting badly

Which is it? How is this statement supposed to be helpful to the town? A townie should at this point say, 'hey, if people are trying to lynch me, I should show them why X is a better lynch.' Instead, he's just trying to divert suspicion.

He's not being a team player. I feel pretty confident he's scum and I don't see a better candidate for today.

[LuckyOtter]

Eevee I get a null read on Pine. He spends the earlier part of the game townhunting and didn't raise concerns for me. I wasn't expecting to see him switch to scumhunting so abruptly.

The biggest problem I have with Pine's recent line of thinking is assuming that Fitz and Eevee are probably town simply because they are counterwagons. Why couldn't there be wagons on 2 scum at once? It's not likely, but it might help explain why the wagons are having a hard time taking off, no?

Pedit: Of course town will defend themselves, but

by helping the rest of the town see who the better lynch is.

Not a once have you commented on anything else in the game. That's not just laziness. Lazy town would at least offer some reads to be a team player. You're not being a team player, and that's super scummy.

[LuckyOtter]

Im not voting fuzzy and im starting to suspect otter for shallowness

Not being a team player or even being complete shit at the game doesn't mean fuzzy is scum

Its just sounding like you're pushing a PL now

Disagree. It feels like he's

purposefully

not being a team player. He's actively avoiding reading the slightest bit into anything else in this game other than his own wagon. That is not a shallow read.

It's maddening how much protection and lenience is being handed to him.

[LuckyOtter]

Hey y'all. Closing on a house today, adulting to the max. I think I have a big chunk of free time in the morning, so I will be catching up then.

[LuckyOtter]

I'm learning to accept different playstyles. I get that not everyone, including town, wants to be super active D1 or maybe ever. I see the value in posting less to make a greater impact. This is one of the reasons I've backed off of Eevee--I can see some participation, some poking and prodding, that looks like it's going somewhere (whether it is actually accomplishing anything or just trying to look busy is something as Hiraki argues is worth considering. I don't have as much time as I'd hoped this morning to be able to fully digest this).

I don't see Fuzzy doing that here. I can see Fuzzy doing at least a minimum of poking and prodding in other games as town. His play here is different

I also don't accept that he would necessarily play "better" as scum. Clearly there is a site-wide meta that rewards lurking D1, so if I were on a scumteam with Fuzzy I would absolutely not want him to change his playstyle. I'd tell him to do his thing. Which he seems to have ran with to an extreme.

[LuckyOtter]

Fuzzy, I played a long time ago, like nearly ten years. Long enough that I don't remember a lot about my strategy or approach.

The posting limit has absolutely nothing to do with your performance here. The potato thing is by far the least important thing that's been mentioned. This feels like serious deflection.

[LuckyOtter]

I ignored most of Eevee's early posting because I had bigger fish to fry but apparently those will be for later days. Eevee's posting has been dodgy at absolute best and contradictory at worst. I'm procrastinating right now so you best know I'm gonna put my best foot forward.

I feel like this is exactly how scum are encouraged to be lurky D1. Most people ignore them, and anyone who does try to go after them gets shot down and scumread themselves. Why would scum put in any more effort? It's a pretty sweet deal.

"X's posting has been dodgy at best and contradictory at worst" is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say about Fuzzy. I don't see why you won't see that.

Am i the only one that thinks pine is scum ?

Which gets even WORSE when combined with this quote:

You never know when a single vote can spread into a full hammer. I have it on who i think is scummiest. Just cause I'm off the main lynches doesn't mean its a valueless lynch

1) You've already admitted that your wagon is dead with the first vote.
2) No, a signle vote can't spread into a full hammer. 1 vote isn't 7.
3) Yes, it does mean you're on a valueless lynch because you're not getting a lynch on Pine today. Just facts. Do you need me to quote you where you admit that other people might find Pine not OK?

1. I do agree with this.
2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

I feel like Fuzzy is more obviously scum, but if needed to move this game along, I'll vote Eevee.

Mod, what's the status of the deadline vote?

[LuckyOtter]

Lynchbait doesn’t make them not scum. I think Fuzzy is scummy on top of being an easy target.

^^^^^^

[LuckyOtter]

Wisdom concerns me, He could be defending me and Evee knowing we are gown and trying to get town cred

when

we flip town.

Fuzzy, how confident are you that Eevee is town, and why?

Honestly i dont like the composition of either EA's or my wagon. I am 99.9 percent sure scum is on my wagon and there very likley scum on EAs

Who are the likely scum on Eevee's wagon?

There is 0% chance Cakez is getting lynched today unless you make a hell of a case for it, so this is a pretty useless vote.

[LuckyOtter]

Putting the game on pause for a second
MB.... I am so glad you are out of surgery and everything went well. I hope you have a speedy recovery.... Wishing you well man


Back to the game now......

Thank you I think you’re still scum but this is nice.

I agree with literally everything in here, lol. For real, though, congrats.
--

Mod, what happens if there's a tie?

Apologies if this is covered somewhere and I can't find it.
--
Eevee, a deadline has been requested because we are obviously not able to come together today. There are 3 rival wagons at 3 or 4 votes each. Pine and Cakez only have 1 vote each from you you and Fuzzy respectively. Early D1, with no deadline, I would agree with you that those votes are not useless. But now we're in a situation where those votes are accomplishing nothing but further stalling the game, especially since neither of you is really pushing a case.

[LuckyOtter]

It's a gambit. If lynchbait is his MO as town, he should be used to getting some heat and wouldn't feel defeated, especially if playing as cop.

[LuckyOtter]

Assuming Wisdom's VC was correct, this is where we're at now:

TheFuzzyLogic99 - 6 (LuckyOtter, MathBlade, SirCakez, Pine, Dunnstral, TheFuzzyLogic99)
havingfitz - 4 (Momrangal, Wisdom, ArcAngel9, Kokichi Oma)
EeveeLution Army - 2 (havingfitz, Hiraki)
Pine - 1 (EeveeLution Army)

[LuckyOtter]

Koki, you ready to hammer or waiting for something?

[LuckyOtter]

It's worth a shot.

Vote for a deadline of one week

Also, should we decide not to lynch Fuzzy, his V/LA wouldn't end until after night deadline, meaning he'd miss his chance to submit a choice if he really is cop. The fact that he hasn't expressed concern about this makes me believe his claim even less.

Fuzzy, if you haven't left yet, can you point to a game where you played as a PR? Also, can you tell me who all in this list you have played with before?

Or anyone else who has played with Fuzzy where he had such a role?

Fuzzy knows how to not play as lynchbait as evidenced by game Hiraki pointed out. I would think that as a cop in a scum-sided setup Fuzzy would know better not to play as lynchbait.

[LuckyOtter]

More than likely scum stayed off it because they would know the claim was real.

Why vote Magna then? SirCakez was on the Fuzzy wagon.

Will reread and rethink.

[LuckyOtter]

I still feel like pine is scum but im unsure on if anyone would go along with it....but tbh the fact mom died makes me less confident in it.

Why?

If you feel like you have a case on Pine, now is the time to share it.

[LuckyOtter]

Because Magna refuses to push Kokichi for the same exact issue.

Magna explained his stance on kokichi and this is bs

As is your sudden turn on fitz slot out of nowhere

I agree with this, especially the bolded bit.

Math starts D1 by latching onto Wisdom and Fuzzy as scum. I felt like his arguments against me as scum were a built as a confirmation bias, and it looks that way against Wisdom as well.

He mostly ignores Fitz D1 and vice versa. They do a bit of talking to each other and not a lot of talking about each other, except Math eventually TRs Fitz.

This vote against Umlaut is a huge stretch. I think there's a strong possibility that this is a bus vote and that we're seeing a SvS interaction here. I feel slightly better about the Fitz/Umlaut slot being scum, though. I continue to read Wisdom as town as the early push against him as built by scum. I also don't see any point in seconding my question to eevee except to stir the pot wrt eevee and to gain my favor.

VOTE: Umlaut

[LuckyOtter]

I'm not even sure who to vote right now.

Can you give us some reads, at least?
--

I still feel like pine is scum but im unsure on if anyone would go along with it....but tbh the fact mom died makes me less confident in it.

What's the connection between momrangel's death and Pine?

Well i personally dont think killing mom in pines position was the best. But its still the n1 kill(though im also assuming pine is semidecent as scum and looking forward).

I'd really like you to elaborate on
1. why exactly Pine wouldn't have NK'd mom (you didn't really answer the question)
2. what the basis of your scumread on Pine is/was (you never answered this question)
3. who your current scumreads are if not Pine

[LuckyOtter]

Hiraki, just to be clear, are you suggesting a Magna+Eevee team? Who do you see as a possible third?
--
Umlaut, how much of D1 have

you

read? Your question to Magna is unfair at best, but also feels like you're trying to preemptively defend your cautiousness coming into the game. You've done more defending than digging, imo.

So on that note, I'd like to know if you have any other reads yet. How confident are you in scum!Magna after considering who he replaced? I'm also interested in your take on Hiraki and Eevee atm.
--
Pedit:
1. But you specifically said killing mom was not good in Pine's position and I want to understand why that is.
3. Which other person? And who do you see as a likely partner off of the Fuzzy wagon?

[LuckyOtter]

I honestly don't know what to think about Eevee anymore. Earlier I thought maybe Eevee was going somewhere with a strategy I couldn't see, and now it seems there's really no strategy at all. But I can't tell if this is lazy town or scum trying to slip through an imploding town. It's starting to feel like the latter.
--
Umlaut:

I'm not even the slightest bit confident in scum!Magna and from what I've seen I have no real reason to think he's scum. The overconfidence is bad but not damningly so. I'll try and do some reading on SirCakez and get a real read there.

I asked because the following felt quite a bit like you were throwing some shade his way

Magna seems too confident in his read for someone who just joined the game and hasn't fully read through day 1. It seems like he skipped past the 'analyze and poke around and form reads" part and skipped right to the 'talk everyone into voting my scumread' part. Not that I'm not suspicious of MathBlade, but I don't like his approach here.

Actually, Magna, how much of day 1

have

you read?

It looks more like trying to cast suspicion on Magna than trying to figure out his thought process.

BTW, are you saying Math+Dunn scumteam? Who would be a likely third?
--
Hiraki I asked about Magna+Eevee because it also seemed like you were trying to cast suspicion on Magna here:

MoI, the most nitpickiest person in the world, is saying that Eevee is town because her approach to the game feels like town.

No one else?

This was just after Umlaut's post shading Magna, which follows Math putting Magna into his scumreads. It just looks a hell of a lot like the three of you working together to get people scumreading a slot that was mostly townread earlier, with two of you not having to fully commit to scumreading him should the town not go along with it.

So here I am still at {Umlaut>Math>Hiraki}. Maybe Eevee instead of Hiraki, but that will be for later.

Pedit: Why is Dunn scummier, though?

[LuckyOtter]

@Umlaut: I personally don't think speculating on teams is useless at all. If I find two people scummy and it looks like they might be working together, that strengthens the reads for me. If I think they're not likely working together, it forces me to rethink my reads and gives me a differently structured lynch pool.

Really all I want to know is if you find Dunn and Math equally lynchable or not.

Fair point, though, I haven't said much about Dunn. I had an early townread on him and he's not caught my attention much since. Leaving his vote on Fuzzy is the only thing that really looks like it could be opportunism, but it looked to me like he genuinely scumread Fuzzy and then didn't believe the cop claim. I can see your point, but I'm going to need more than that to be convinced of him being scum in the game overall. I honestly need either you or Eevee to flip before I can start sorting Dunn better.

[LuckyOtter]

I am board lynching either math or Dunn today.

Arc, what happened to this?:

Strong scumread - Hiraki.. Scum lean Fitz

Town read Wisodm and Pine

Rest, I am still figuring it out.

[LuckyOtter]

Math, why are you so confident Eevee is town?

[LuckyOtter]

yeah lets vote for the other lynchbait after lynching fuzzy

over three obvious scum

Can either you or math explain to me why eevee is so obviously town?

Math, if your 797 was an answer to me I don't understand how the VCA clears Eevee but not Fitz/Umlaut. Both had wagons that didn't change much. I don't really get what you're trying to argue.

[LuckyOtter]

If an Umlaut lynch isn't happening then I'd rather Math over Eevee

VOTE: MathBlade

[LuckyOtter]

Reeeeally suspicious of the Math wagon tbh.

What do you suggest then?

[LuckyOtter]

anyone who thinks umlaut is a wolf is a bit daft

The only reason you've given for TRing Umlaut so far is that he posts a lot. Is that it, or is there any other reason?

[LuckyOtter]

What do you like about his posts? Can you be more specific?

[LuckyOtter]

Yes initial vote was for a general lack of contribution but subsequently it seemed clearer and clearer that he was actively avoiding providing any reads. He popped in here and there to defend himself but literally nothing else until way too far into the game. I also felt like it was so hard to lynch him because his buddies were trying to protect him (wisdom would've been my first guess). There was pretty big contradiction I pointed out that kept me on a confirmation bias. If you iso me you can see more of my reasoning yesterday. I got a lot of pushback on the fuzzy vote and I was pretty adamant about it and gave my reasoning.

[LuckyOtter]

I'll take a look at your notes later, btw. I like this post. Looks like you're genuinely trying to sort people and not just random busywork. Moving you to my null pile for now.

[LuckyOtter]

@Umlaut: Here's the whole thing for context:

I admit that I have mostly just floated along this game and have not done much except maybe threw in a few mediocre posts at best. No way is this my best.

Okay so Math thinking is that I am scum and that my scum partners are pushing for my lynch as they did in the Three game. I kinda get why he is being paranoid here since I burnt him badly as scum. I think that he is ignoring the possibility I am town and I am am just getting run up by scum ie

I am playing as lynchbait this game

. Not asking you to town read me Math but just consider that I might be town here/ Basically he being paranoid as anything. Honestly this kinda makes me think Math is town here, Maybe he over estimating my scum game, Not sure. I thinking Math is town.

I think Pine is playing layed back game. Its kinda wierd that he think Math is scum when Math is the one who is really pushing me as scum.

I dont get Wisdom reads...... It just seems like he scum reading people . I am confused his votes on Fritz and me. Kinda feel like he just going with the crowd

Otto.....

I just dont feel confident in voting for a players atm

.......

( would be funny if Math is scum this game and I get burnt .....after the Ending in Three game it would be a fair turn around)

The bolded bits don't line up:
- 'Sorry y'all I'm not doing my best'
- 'But what if I'm just playing as lynchbait?' (Contradicts previous statement: If he meant to be playing as lynchbait he'd have nothing to apologize for)
- 'Don't feel confident in voting someone atm'
I didn't just ask why he wasn't voting anyone, but also if he had any reads yet. His statement on Pine's playstyle is NAI (and Pine already addressed it). Light shade thrown at Wisdom but is pretty hedgy. If he were trying to play as lynchbait, we shouldn't have to ask him who he thinks the scum are running up his wagon. If he's not trying to play as lynchbait, why even bring it up as a possibility?

I have more thoughts on this but want Fuzzy to respond to Dunn first.

The bit that didn't line up for me was the "i.e. I am playing as lynchbait," which I took to mean that he was intentionally playing as lynchbait. That didn't line up with the rest of his post and it still doesn't line up with the fact that he was a cop (why try to be lynchbait as cop?). I'm guessing he was just trying to lay low as cop and that here he just meant that others were attacking him as an easy target (so he is not intentionally playing as lynchbait, but that seems to be the role that others have ascribed to him). Or, maybe he meant to use 'e.g.' instead of 'i.e.' in order to say something like "Math is ignoring the possibility that I am intentionally playing in a not obviously townie way, such as lynchbait (subtext: or as a cop). But, the way that he wrote it, neither of those interpretations is very obvious. The reads that followed were lazy and hedgy. The cop claim later didn't help clarify this at all. It just all felt icky.

For the record, in retrospect, I get that the better move would have been to sort Fuzzy out D2 or just let the scum NK him. I didn't think that through, I felt really sure he was scum, and I had just previously gotten talked out of voting scum in a different game against my instinct, so I was having a 'I better go with my gut' moment and absolutely everything felt off with him. That's honestly the best I can do to defend my Fuzzy vote.

[LuckyOtter]

My summer Fridays are completely unpredictable, and I'm about to go V/LA for a research trip this weekend. I'll try to get some rereading done before I go and post something substantive, but I honestly don't think my vote is going to move. I feel like I need math to flip before I can get a better read of others.

[LuckyOtter]

V/LA through Monday

. If I can I'll try to post in the evenings.

Wisdom's defense of Eevee bothered me before and now it's the same thing with AA. It's making me lose faith in Wisdom, honestly. AA had a very big change in reads D2 that I asked her about and she never fully explained. Then again, she's disappeared after that.

Mastina

, did AA ever pick up her prod? Can we get a replacement?

I feel like Trinity is not going to be an easy push for a lynch, so I'm not sure that it totally makes sense for scum!math to start pushing there, other than cause general confusion and park a vote on a slot that's not a hot topic.

Eevee actually has a point--Pine said he was going to 1v1 Dunn today and hasn't touched him yet. I actually keep forgetting Pine is in this game.

I also keep forgetting about Koki/Mafmen. Mafmen's townread on Pine is not at all convincing, but I'm tending to agree with him on Umlaut. I didn't like his entrance but I'm liking his recent contributions.

I don't really like Math's dismissal of Umlaut. It's very much like the way he dismissed me early on without bothering to read anything I wrote. If it can be shown Umlaut is trying to push a specific agenda and that agenda is scummy, that would be one thing, but just saying "UGH wallposter" is not at all convincing. Umlaut will probably have to be sorted tomorrow once we see where his case is going and once we get a flip.

Going to UNVOTE: until I see where he's going. I'm still leaning Math but I can be convinced to vote elsewhere.

[LuckyOtter]

Agreed. There has been heat on his slot, but it has dissipated and hasn't really merited this kind of effort to turn the game around.

[LuckyOtter]

Back. Catching up today.

[LuckyOtter]

He was already calling himself natural lynchbait before (293) and continued to call himself natural lynchbait after (394, 401):

This doesn't mean anything and you eventually get to:

So the entire basis for a contradiction hinges on whether this is a reasonable interpretation of "playing as lynchbait." If so, Fuzzy's explanation is sound; if not, it's scum backpedaling.

Alrighty, that's a stretch.

We're at the point where saying "I play like lynchbait" means "I play like lynchbait (please excuse my scummy play)" but you never really hit where the scummy play part is.

The point of that section is that

Otter's

hard scumread of Fuzzy was based on an insistence that Fuzzy's statement could only mean "I'm deliberately acting scummy." Which means Otter should not be able to readily come up with an innocent alternate interpretation that completely eluded him as possible on d1 even as Fuzzy was offering it to him.

@Umlaut...

Dude, first of all, you

asked

me to try to reconcile Fuzzy's play yesterday. So when I do, that makes me scum? As town, I can't possibly be able to try to understand where Fuzzy was coming from, such that my face melts from my skull when I try to reason it out? I guess I should have been obtuse about it and not bother trying to figure out where I went wrong? This feels pretty baity.

Second, I made it quite clear that in order to reconcile Fuzzy's play, I have to make a super generous read of Fuzzy's statements, such that I can only have read them as coming from town with the benefit of hindsight knowing that he was in fact town.

The bit where you say I'm calling for an immediate hammer, I can see how you would interpret it that way. Hiraki is correct that I posted that in the context of trying to see if Koki was actually going to vote Fuzzy or not.
---
If Pine's claim is true, Umlaut's scumreads are super off. I don't really see the scum motivation in targeting me in particular, but it's concerning. Keeping Umlaut in null pile.
--
I had a strong TR of SirCakez D1 but a couple of things are bothering me with Trinity. The Pine vote comes out of nowhere, and the stance on Math is consistent but never actually explained. Trinity moves her vote back onto Math, saying "his evidence on me is very weak," all the while providing no evidence whatsoever against Math. This is looking a hell of a lot like Trinity just trying to move with popular opinion. Questions for Trinity: what made you think Pine was scummy? What's the basis of your Math scumread?
--
I need a response from Trinity, a post-claim update from Eevee, and a catch-up from Lycan before I'm ready to vote.

[LuckyOtter]

VOTE: Pine

Scum!Eevee makes less sense here because after Pine's claim, all of the heat went to Math. Scum!Eevee could very easily have jumped over there, or just go quiet as he does, or move somewhere else. This would be a suicide mission to take out the doc, which is a less useful role with the cop gone anyway. Seems like a super bad tradeoff when there are no caught scum yet.

Whereas JK!Eevee sees a fake claim, tries to pursue it without revealing his own role, sees it going nowhere, and decides to reveal his role in order to nail down one scum as a tradeoff. It's still a suicide mission but the benefit is much greater.

If someone can confirm that a jailkeeper makes more sense mechanically than a doc with a X-shot modifier, that would solidify the read for me.

[LuckyOtter]

Speaking of Mafmen, he hasn't posted here since Monday, pre-claim business

@Mastina, prod please

If we're deciding between claims, Eevee's seems more plausible and I don't see Eevee making that counter as scum at that moment. Eevee's play does seem scummier but it just feels like a bad move lynching him.

If we're going to let the NK resolve it (which really isn't a bad idea), I have no clue anymore. Trinity keeps giving me bad vibes.

@Trinity

Maybe you didn't see it, but immediately following your Math vote I asked you to explain the basis of it.
--
Math, are you trying to get a hypoclaim going because you think it plausible both Pine and Eevee are lying?
--
Umlaut, most of your argumentation depends on associatives and there are a couple I'm not sure about. Maf's straight up "Pine is town without a doubt" seems pretty bold for a scumpartner, don't you think? If anything, it makes more sense to me if Maf is scum and knows Pine is town, or Maf is town and is just being opaque with his reads (as he seems to like to do, given that he called anyone who suspected you "daft" without explanation until asked for it).

The second problem is the Trinity+Eevee combo. Trinity was scumreading Pine, then after Eevee's counterclaim, scum!Trinity would have been able to sit on a Pine vote and stay out of the way and get the mislynch. Instead, scum!Trinity busses her partner who just counterclaimed? It seems equally plausible (or implausible) that scum!Trinity could have been trying to bus scum!Pine who appeared to be going down, then took the opportunity to change her mind as soon as Pine claimed (which she might have known he would do anyway). Following Eevee's counter, Trinity decides to believe Pine over Eevee, for pretty underwhelming reasons.

So I don't know. Sticking to Pine for now.

[LuckyOtter]

I mean, eevee got a couple votes after pine's claim but most of the heat was going to match, no? When I have time I'll check the actual vote count

[LuckyOtter]

Ugh. UNVOTE: til I mull this over but yeah it changes things for me. I didn't realize eevee still had that many votes

[LuckyOtter]

Happy Birthday, Umlaut! lol
--
For reference, EOD VCs:
D1:
TheFuzzylogic99 - 7 (LuckyOtter, MathBlade,

SirCakez

TrinityNZ, Pine, Dunnstral,

Kokichi Oma Mafmen

Jingle, Wisdom)
havingfitz - 4 (Momrangal,

ArcAngel9

Lycanfire, Hiraki, TheFuzzylogic99)
EeveeLution Army - 1 (havingfitz)
Pine - 1 (EeveeLution Army)

D2:
EeveeLution Army - 6 (

MafMen

Jingle, Pine, Hiraki, TrinityNZ, Dunnstral, Umlaut)
Pine - 2 (EeveeLution Army, Wisdom)

Not Voting - 3 (Lycanfire, MathBlade, LuckyOtter)
--
Pine of course is on both lynches, as are Dunnstral, Jingleslot, and Trinityslot.
I wouldn't usually expect all 3 scum to vote together all the time, but having the opportunity to take out PRs is enticing. Plus, Fuzzy and Eevee were both easy mislynches. I'd expect at least one of these three to be scum. Jingleslot was in Umlaut's named scumteam, so that would be the obvious place to look, but I still think Maf's "Pine is town without a doubt" would be super bold for a scumbuddy.

On Hiraki: I don't like his vote on Eevee following the counterclaim, but his earlier vote on Pine doesn't make sense to me if they are buddies. Eevee was at 3 votes, Pine was at 1, then Umlaut and Wisdom voted Pine. Hiraki's vote puts Pine at 4, saying "this game needs something to get it to move and this might as well be something." He could just as easily have said this about Eevee and voted there. I don't think it was so obvious Pine's wagon would build so that he felt like he'd have to bus here. Unless the plan was to run up a Pine wagon until he claimed, then back off. In such a plan, though, there will be a counterclaim and Pine should be the obvious lynch, which would essentially mean sacrificing Pine. I don't think that makes sense given the state of the game.

Trinity, on the other hand, now sees Pine's wagon building and says that she could vote Pine, and eventually puts him at L-1. Once the fire dies down, Trinity goes over to the Math wagon. Later on, votes Eevee after the counterclaim. The reasoning for the vote and keeping it there is Eevee's apparent contradictory statements, which are easily explainable (as pointed out by Wisdom and myself). I think everything lines up for Trinity!scum here. I'm inclined to think this makes Math very likely town.

As for Dunn, Umlaut clears him based on this:

It was 1013, thanks for noticing. You asked Pine who he protected after he had already said in his claim. Especially where you yourself placed intent on him, if it were all an act I'd expect that you'd have worked out that detail of the claim in the PT and you wouldn't forget it.

I'm really not following Umlaut here. Scum!Dunn could very easily say these things. He ignores the fact that Pine already says who he protected and goes about pretending to sort the claims. Scum!Dunn is still plausible to me, but I don't have any more time right now to sort him out.

As it stands, Trinity is my best guess for scum with Pine. Jingle and Dunn are decent bets as a shot in the dark, but I want to look at the timing of their votes more carefully. I don't think Hiraki makes sense as Pine's buddy. More later.

[LuckyOtter]

My thoughts exactly.

VOTE: Pine

Plus this just screams fake to me. Like, the Pine vote is so obvious why bother with the "my thoughts exactly?"

[LuckyOtter]

LO, your read on the D1 wagon is pretty much the opposite of mine. Any particular reason you expect scum were keen to push specifically that lynch through?

Because having the chance to get rid of the cop D1 without having to worry about the protective role getting in the way is probably worth the risk of voting together.

Why do you have the opposite read?

LuckyOtter what do you think of Umlaut dying?

Umlaut was a threat to scum regardless of how good his reads were yesterday. He was putting the most effort into the game. At the moment I can't read much more into it without getting into wifom territory.

Doing some more rereading now.

[LuckyOtter]

My thoughts exactly.

VOTE: Pine

Plus this just screams fake to me. Like, the Pine vote is so obvious why bother with the "my thoughts exactly?"

I don’t know why that seems fake. I had just been about to make a similar post, but saw I was beaten to it. I don’t see what’s wrong with saying that? Doesn’t make me scum (because I’m not).

It just feels like too much, like it's forced. It's really not the most important detail here, though.

Who do you think Pine's buddies are?

Same question to Dunn.

[LuckyOtter]

Easiest answer here is Jingle+Hiraki. At least one, maybe both. Both were after Wisdom D1 as well, and I felt pretty confident then that scum was pushing that wagon. Right now I'm more confident about Jingleslot than Hiraki, though it occurs to me that Hiraki might be buddying me, and Jingle's apparent confusion over Hiraki as 3rd scum (1152) makes that pairing more likely. Still need convincing it's not Trinity, though.

[LuckyOtter]

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

[LuckyOtter]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

[LuckyOtter]

@Math, right, but is that what he's arguing? Actually, let's let Hiraki answer that.
--

@Jingle, if you've read the thread, there should be no confusion at this point

False Dichotomy.

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Let's phrase this a different way then. Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner to someone on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player? Specifically, what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

Regardless, the more important thing here is that you seem to be implying that it wouldn't make any sense for scum!you to ask Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread of scum!Hiraki. Why not? For one thing, it would make perfect sense if the goal is to distance yourself from Hiraki. I mean, here you are saying "why would I do this to my partner?', so in the event of your lynch, you would hope that we'd say "well he probably wasn't trying to put that much attention on his partner, so it can't be Hiraki."

For another thing, I'd think Wisdom giving a really vague but determined scumread on your partner would be really scary for you as scum. There's no chance to reason with him and he has potential to be very influential on the town, so getting Wisdom to elaborate on his scumread would give both you and Hiraki a chance to refute some points and diffuse suspicion (if not for Wisdom, then for the rest of the town). Whether or not you are present to do so is irrelevant. The fact that you didn't get this from Wisdom, saw that he was consistently giving vague reads over the game and wasn't likely going to be engaging you or Hiraki in any sort of 1v1 that would be beneficial to you or especially Hiraki in endgame makes his NK make perfect sense in this scenario.

[LuckyOtter]

It's not, really. Both Umlaut and Wisdom had you and Hiraki as Pine buddies. They are both dead. The easy answer to this is you and Hiraki are scum. That doesn't make it the right answer, but it's the easy answer and you should be well aware of this if you've read the thread. I believe you've read the thread, just not that you are confused about why people are putting you and Hiraki together.

Except that this is not the argument you made. What you did mention was a progression that lead you to think we were specifically partners.

Here is what I said:

Easiest answer here is Jingle+Hiraki. At least one, maybe both. Both were after Wisdom D1 as well, and I felt pretty confident then that scum was pushing that wagon. Right now I'm more confident about Jingleslot than Hiraki, though it occurs to me that Hiraki might be buddying me, and Jingle's apparent confusion over Hiraki as 3rd scum (1152) makes that pairing more likely. Still need convincing it's not Trinity, though.

Note that at no point am I 100% sold on the idea that you're partners. What I'm saying is that I can see a world in which you are. Tell me what is specifically confusing you here.

On a purely gut level, your asking Wisdom about Hiraki reads a tad defensive and disingenuous to me. Wisdom already said he was pretty much following Umlaut on that, so that much should have been clear to you. It read to me as challenging Wisdom, not engaging him to elaborate. I could be wrong there but you are clearly not a minimalist poster so a short "Why Hiraki" doesn't seem likely to be genuinely engaging from you.

A direct request for more information is "Challenging, not engaging him to elaborate"? And this on the basis that I am not a minimalist poster? So what would you expect from me as a request for more information, as opposed to a challenge?

So I just typed up a 385 word answer to this. The TL/DR is that you're asking someone to explain a gut read (kind of silly), this is a really minor point in my thought process, and the person you're asking is a linguist who constantly overanalyzes things like tone in text conversation, so let's all decide if it's really worth me posting this or if it will just be a distraction.

The rest of your post doesn't make sense in context, btw. I asked "What leads you to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" and you responded with "You asking what leads me to the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner." This is necessarily false, and therefore cannot be the answer to my question.

1. Misrep/strawman. Please take that "quote" you gave and align it with what I actually said.
2. Also, that's not

exactly

the question you asked me. Here it is for context:

Let's phrase this a different way then.

Why does it make any sense for me to be specifically a likely scumpartner

to someone

on the basis that I was attempting to engage a townread about their suspicion on that player?

Specifically,

what is the logical reason that leads you to the partner conclusion

based on me replacing in and asking someone to talk MORE about why a particular player is scum, especially after I have already expressed that I cannot be allowed to survive into LYLO?

1. With a

very generous

reading, there is a question here of "what leads you the conclusion that Hiraki is my partner?" These are the bits that I've underlined. I answered that in part by saying I see some defensiveness in your questioning Wisdom on Hiraki. If you want me to go back and check associatives further, fine, I should anyway, but that isn't really what you asked me.

2. Each of those underlined bits is accompanied by a

very defensive

second line of questioning, the bolded bits, which is "why would what I have done make sense if me and Hiraki are partners?" I chose to respond to this, saying that there is a world in which this makes perfect sense.

Further, it occurs to me you never answered my 1149. What ever came of that analysis?

I didn't see a question to respond to but I suppose you might have just wanted a reaction to it. I saw your version of events and didn't find anything particularly convincing one way or another.

You apparently find my analysis suspect because only two votes came after the claim. One of those includes your slot, so yeah, from my POV that gives you a scumpoint. From your POV, that shouldn't seem illogical or even worth me responding to...
Also, Pine might not have cared about pushing a Fuzzy lynch

if he knew he had a scumbuddy who could seal the deal

i.e. your slot, so that is still very plausible.

[LuckyOtter]

Going to agree that Jingle is just trying to stall by quibbling with me. He's yet to actually come up with any sort of case against me, or anyone else for that matter. Not going to engage with Jingle until he provides some reads since our 1v1 is clearly going to go in circles based on his last response.

Also,

@Mastina, can we get a prod of Lycanfire?

He's not posted at all D4 yet.

[LuckyOtter]

Cool story. But you only started "digging for my alignment" when I said I was likely to vote you. From then on you've done nothing but argue with me. You've not done much sorting of anyone else pretty much the whole time you've been here. What happened to Lycan being scum? You were super sure about that yesterday.

My analysis of the game is garbage? Rude. Tell me why I'm wrong about suspecting Trinity. Or Dunn for that matter.