Mini Normal 2016 | Otters vs. Penguins | Endgame

[ByronVilla]

oh crap Gosrir Elmer Odels has more

Dw I got you

VOTE: Gosrir Elmer Odels

[ByronVilla]

ew all these old people and their occupations

I've got a Maths A-Level mock on Thursday but past that I'm free of mock exams for the year

[ByronVilla]

Also, this Lefty wagon looks great huh? More people should join.

Idk counter-wagons can be a lot more fun, let's get one started

UNVOTE: Gosrir Elmer Odels
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

[ByronVilla]

VOTE: BBT
two at once for double effectiveness

Hmm... should I be happy that we seem to have a little friendship blossoming here, or should I be a bit creeped out at the sheer speed of your response?

Let's go with happy for now and see how it goes, however that other thought may or may not be chilling in the back of my mind for a while.

[ByronVilla]

There may be something that tells me you're town - but I want to ignore it for now.

OK now my vote is serious.

[ByronVilla]

I don't have much else to say on your wagon - but with the current gamestate I am even more inclined to push you now.

There may be something that tells me you're town - but I want to ignore it for now.

It's pretty clear you had something to add to that wagon. If there is extra info you need to say it, and prove that it doesn't hinder your wagon. You can't just ignore that info, that's flat out anti-town. The town need all the info they can get, and even if it's contrarian to what you're saying, you need to prove why your wagon is good and if it should stand, instead of pushing the wagon whilst hiding info that is vital to that exact wagon.

Sidenotes:

Serious vote alert. We have a serious vote.

Shit's about to go down.

This helps no one. Mocking players is just going to annoy them, and it seems to me that you're implying I shouldn't have announced that my vote was serious, which makes absolutely no sense.

The voters on the Performer, Gustavo and Garmr wagons should choose between myself and teacher.

Those are the two wagons of choice (hint: choose teacher!) Let's go!

Don't tell people how to vote. You have no authority over anyone's vote other than your own. Don't act like you do.

(Oh and my name's Byron, not Bryan)

[ByronVilla]

VOTE: BV

107 is a commentary. Provides no information, communicates nothing, asks nothing, leads to nothing. So why make such a long post?

To make a statement. It seemed that BBT was confused as to why my vote was serious, and so I told him exactly why my vote was serious. Him withholding information from the town so he can ignore it. The sidenotes and nothing more/less than what they are, a sidenote. There's nothing wrong with a commentary, as it gets my views out there. That post wasn't made in order to ask questions or provide information (well I'm hoping for BBT to elaborate on his #84 but hey ho), it was more a platform for me to speak my mind on those posts of BBT's.

[ByronVilla]

Essentially you could consider it an elaboration on my #86 if that helps you.

[ByronVilla]

Ok I also wanna join in on this 1 scum 1 town read thing we're doing.

Townread: Lefty - Can really follow the thought process in a lot of his posts, and I like his reaction to BBT's wagon.

Scumread: BBT - Says stuff with no reason, and then when asked to elaborate he just ignores them or makes a snarky comment. It's probably me having a personal gripe, but withholding information from town is one of the scummiest things you can do imo, and this is a prime example.

Pedit: Key word: Withholding. You're keeping information that could help the town away from the town, just to strengthen your push on Lefty (which isn't even a thing but still the point stands) I may have said hiding at some point, in that case I apologize as I meant withholding.

[ByronVilla]

And again, you would not have known I was 'witholding' informationa had I not stated it openly in a post.

Stop surface level reading and learn to Mafia bro.

Ok don't OMGUS. I am learning to play this game so let me, being an ass helps no-one. Just because you said 'oh guys I have info on how Lefty's town but I'm ignoring it', it doesn't excuse you from not giving us that information. You're still withholding information whether or not you tell us you have that information.

Scumread: BBT - Says stuff with no reason, and then when asked to elaborate he just ignores them or makes a snarky comment. It's probably me having a personal gripe, but withholding information from town is one of the scummiest things you can do imo, and this is a prime example.

Why would scum do this? How do you differentiate scummy vs just being an ass

I mean being an ass is a scumtell for me. I'll admit it's more anti-town than scummy, but I don't see town motivation in being confrontational, avoiding questions and in general just not giving information away. Scum motivation is in this, as it throws off town and blocks the information that they can work with.

[ByronVilla]

You're missing the point Byron.

If I wanted to hide/withhold information - why would I state that I am hiding/withholding information? Instead of just hiding/withholding the information without explicitly stating that I am doing so.

Last time I'm asking this before I conclude you're scum who doesn't want to backtrack on a read.

I see it as a taunt. I feel like you were going in on Lefty quite hard, and so you felt it appropriate to essentially say 'hey look at my wagon, I have town info on you but I'm still gonna wagon you anyways'. However from both a town and scum perspective I don't really understand why you'd post that message.

[ByronVilla]

You wouldn't mind explaining why you made that post would you? That would certainly clear up the confusion around it.

[ByronVilla]

Right, so if you can't discern an alignment from that post then I'm gonna need to know why you're voting me.

I'm not voting you purely based on that one post. I'm voting you based on your general attitude towards the game. Now answer my question please.

[ByronVilla]

BBT, why aren't you answering my question? What would you lose by answering it?

[ByronVilla]

I don't lose anything - but I don't gain anything either so...meh.

Ok let's put what the town gains/loses. Town gains information, and therefore by you not answering we don't get that information. Overall the town has nothing to lose and everything to gain from you answering the question. Just because you're indifferent it doesn't mean you should put your own indifference in front of giving out information to the town.

[ByronVilla]

Oh yeah and if you haven't noticed yet, I very much believe the more information the town has the better, and that's my main goal of my mafia games. Get all information possible out and use that to find the scummy stuff lying in it. By not giving out information, you directly clash with my gameplan. D1 especially I feel people need to be a lot more open and express their honest feelings, as that's the best way to find scum, as scum are going to struggle with the whole honesty thing.

[ByronVilla]

Oh one more thing before I flood this thread, I'd like to hear a few reads from Tommy and Performer. They've done nothing much and I want to hear what they have to say.

[ByronVilla]

Jesus christ you just love using OMGUS don't you? Learn some respect jesus

[ByronVilla]

VOTE: BV

107 is a commentary. Provides no information, communicates nothing, asks nothing, leads to nothing. So why make such a long post?

To make a statement. It seemed that BBT was confused as to why my vote was serious, and so I told him exactly why my vote was serious. Him withholding information from the town so he can ignore it. The sidenotes and nothing more/less than what they are, a sidenote. There's nothing wrong with a commentary, as it gets my views out there. That post wasn't made in order to ask questions or provide information (well I'm hoping for BBT to elaborate on his #84 but hey ho), it was more a platform for me to speak my mind on those posts of BBT's.

if you're seriously voting someone for not talking about a gut read/meta/something they saw this early thats kinda dumb. I could see doing that to someone the day before lylo. You realize the good townies get killed fisrt right? so if you're a good townie and you'd rather actually solve the game... You can't show your hand. You DO have to hold back a bit early in the game. That's just how it is. I can understand you not realizing that point in particular but now that i've mentioned it there's no point in pushing BBT for the same thing. Either you can disagree with my thought and we can discuss that or you can move along and make new reads, if you want of course. Not telling you how to play at all

I play to win, not to survive. In a worst case scenario when I die, I want to make sure there's enough info left for other townies to pick up the pieces. Also is it bad I don't consider myself good at the game? I feel compared to others I'm quite expendable and it's a better strat to let the experienced players take the mantle come the endgame.

[ByronVilla]

Byron trying way too hard to sound town there.

Is it really this easy.

Teacher/Byron/???

Jesus christ you just love using OMGUS don't you? Learn some respect jesus

this BBT V Byron is disgusting on byron's part. Demands "other" info from BBT (giving BBT exactly what he wanted, a reaction) claims he's trying to learn the game (join date 2015) jumps for the OMGUS finger pointing immediately (this is where I get my scumtingles, other points could have town motivation to them) and now Byron has made such a big issue out of the mess it can't go ignored. Town usually doesn't jump to OMGUS like that imo in that situation this early in the game.

I played two newbie games, stopped playing, and have played two mini normals before this. I am still learning the game.

[ByronVilla]

Oh yeah Nosferatu you got any reads yet or not? (and if so can you give us some?)

[ByronVilla]

UNVOTE: BBT
VOTE: Invisibility

I'm down for this.

[ByronVilla]

Byron, why the change?

Has your read on me changed or is the read on Invis stronger?

My read on you has changed slightly, you're still an ass but scum wouldn't want to be an ass for the most part so you're like a slight scum lean now. (Ay you wanna answer that question still?)

Invis I just feel off about. Feels like they've just bounced around wagons with no real solid reads. Invis, can you give us a readlist if possible (Ideally with reasonings)? You keep saying so-and-so are town/scum but with no real explanation behind each read. Feels like a weirdly safe way of playing that I'm not a fan of.

[ByronVilla]

At which point he decided to leave it and move onto pastures new (despite the read only changing slightly [his words]).

Well I don't want to hold onto childish grudges, and if I kept tunneling on you I wasn't going to get us anywhere was I?

[ByronVilla]

Well, if you believed in the read you had, what does it matter?

Unless you're saying you're entire read on me was 'I don't like this guy so he has to be scum'?

PEdit - Above @BV

Well no I felt the fact that you were straying away from giving a simple explanation of a read was too scummy for me to ignore. However after a lot of attempts to pressure this information out of you it seemed like a fruitless venture, and so it was better for me to get information out of other players than to try and pry it out of you.

[ByronVilla]

Yet you retained the read.

How are you planning on lynching scum!BBT playing in this way?

PEdit - Above @BV.

Will reread that now Wave.

Just because I read you as scum doesn't mean I want to lynch you yet. Whilst I hate to admit it, it's a much weaker read than it was, and I want to see what else you can bring to the table before I jump to any more conclusions on you.

Also, even if I did have some master plan of lynching you, why would I tell you? Wouldn't that kind of, ya know, ruin the plan?

[ByronVilla]

He did. He said he saw that I thought Byron was scum but didn't see why.

Is that your only (and thus best) reasoning for what is your top scum read on page 17?

Or you got something else to share?

Well yeah but that doesn't change the fact he had a null stance on both of us. Usually at the end of a debacle like that some strong opinions will be made, and at least one of the two will have shifted from simply a null read. That didn't happen with Performer, which naturally is going to raise some question marks.

[ByronVilla]

BBT/performer scumteam yea nay?

Yeah I was getting that vibe but it seems too obvious for me. I don't see Scum!BBT going out of his way to protect Performer but it's a possibility.

[ByronVilla]

I mean, I'm not protecting anyone.

I'm trying to understand how someone with 5(?) posts can possibly be a leading wagon on page 18 of a game.

For that exact reason. A lack of contribution + the contribution they gave so far was shaky.

[ByronVilla]

And that's the best reason that 4 people have in this game for their top scum read at this stage? Nah, fuck that shit, scum are all over this.

PEdit - Thoughts on Gus and BV jumping all over it?

I hardly jumped all over it, I said it was a possibility and actually argued against it?

[ByronVilla]

What's LHF? Can't find that abbreviation on the wiki

[ByronVilla]

I find it weird that even though BBT was calling me scum he never actually voted me. Is there something to be said there or not?

[ByronVilla]

{Performer, BBT} -> TR
{Garmr} -> Lean Town

{TChill, Nos} -> Maybe Town
{Gus} -> Townie side of null

{BV, Invis, GEO, Wave, Teacher} -> Question marks
{Tommy} -> Legitimate concern

What makes Tommy separate from the question marks other than his inactivity?

[ByronVilla]

Inactivity isn't alignment indicative though? He even said that he wasn't available until around this time in his last post. Imo you can't have your strongest scum read based on 'They haven't posted much, and the first and only game related post they made wasn't that strong'. That's hardly a read. I mean it's fair to want to lynch him based around getting rid of lurkers, but don't imply he's scum based on a lack of posting, that's flat out wrong.

[ByronVilla]

Oh I'm not denying being inactive isn't anti-town, it's just not good enough for a person's strongest scum read. I'd be down to lynch anyone inactive today tbh, just that being inactive isn't a reason to SR someone, it's a reason to lynch them based on anti-town behavior.

[ByronVilla]

I'm starting to not like this Invis wagon. I feel like scum Invis would've done more stuff in response to it. The claim is dodgy but I like the rest of his new posts.

UNVOTE: Invisibility

I'll look into a new vote tomorrow.

[ByronVilla]

Because we have a claim and scum can try and run someone else up. There is no certainty that if Invis isn't the lynch it will fall on Byron.

Not to mention that Byron's 'I like Invis' latest posts' was a load of shit. Looks like overjustification for leaving a wagon. How can he like Invis' latest posts?

Here's how, the posts are consistent with the way he's been posting. Posts like:

this has been a bad game for me

lol

lol

Whilst being kinda useless, are consistent with the style that Invis has been posting. I feel like Scum!Invis would've flat out just not posted these post, where really he's persistent with them. I understand this isn't the best theory, but my gut just doesn't sit well with this wagon. It feels like a lynch everyone just kinda mutually agrees on, and something that scum can very easily be pushing just to get D1 over and done with.

[ByronVilla]

Why isn't that scum giving up?

Is scum were giving up they wouldn't be making additional posts no? Why claim if they're scum giving up? The motives clash there.

[ByronVilla]

Did you not see 700???

townreading Tommy

Could you give a run down on the whole roster?

Or just like top 3-4 reads. Town or scum, with reasons though.

ok
im really tired right now also

BlueBloodedToffee - his playstyle is scummy to me so i really can't trust myself to get a solid read on him right now
Garmr - townreading. his gamesolving attempts don't seem to be fake
Gustavo - townreading for reasons already stated
Gosrir Elmer Odels - i scumread him early for posting fluffy, and after ISO i'm not really convinced that he's town
Nosferatu - i was townreading Nos but i think i doled that out too quickly. currently rests at null
Performer - ISO'd. posting feels very fake and untrying
i have to go now so i'll do the rest later

The rest:

teacher
wavemode
Lefty
ByronVilla
Invisibility
Tchill13
Tommy Egan

That's reads on half the people in the game how you gonna say he hasn't given reads?

I'd like him to finish these reads but they're reads, don't say he hasn't given any. And post claim sure he hasn't given reads, but he already has. Give the man at least like a day and a bit to get the rest out. Also can't town give up just like scum? It's quite likely he could've easily been thinking 'fuck this town they suck' and/or 'fuck me I suck gg go next' as town. Don't presume because they're giving up they're scum.

[ByronVilla]

Also yeah Invis you mind finishing up those reads? I'm interested in your reads right now, especially because hammer could be approaching and I feel like seeing all your reads pre-flip could be very useful for us.

[ByronVilla]

Invis, reads?

PEdit - How long ago where those reads? He was threatened with hammer and instead of giving town information he just lol posts.

Tell me how that comes from town. I'll wait.

Tell me how that comes from literally any player of any alignment bar a jester (which isn't even in this format). I'll wait.

[ByronVilla]

I've just told you.

Were you not reading?

Well...

I mean, he gave reads on 6 people - wow I guess? The read on me isn't a read and he includes himself in the 'rest' of people he needs to produce reads for.

BV just tried to misrep me there as well.

i stop taking things seriously when i'm about to die?
BBT you were in Mini 2012

You would do this as either alignment, no?

Something real fishy is going on and if anybody wants to flash wagon Byron or Gus I'm absolutely 100% interested in doing that.

Also yeah Invis you mind finishing up those reads? I'm interested in your reads right now, especially because hammer could be approaching and I feel like seeing all your reads pre-flip could be very useful for us.

Byron asking this right after attacking my own post right along thesl same lines is pretty funny.

You haven't just told me.

I mean after the claim.

The claim is the last ditch attempt to save themselves. After that, it's YOLO. Give away the least amount of information as possible.

I think I asked Invis for reads. If town, why would you not make that your priority. Why 'lol' post instead?

I refuse to believe you can town read Invis off of his posting after his claim.

If this is the post you're on about, the invis read priority thing isn't AI. If he's giving up he can be town or scum you should know this.

[ByronVilla]

finishing up
teacher - scumreading, a lot of his posts contain points that teacher doesn't have to
wavemode - null
Lefty - Town
ByronVilla - feeling a little suspicious because of recent posts
Tchill13 - he's probably town. posting doesn't seem fake
Tommy Egan - is town can't explain have to go kbai

the byron read comes from BBT lol.

I swear the recent posts thing was the thing that Lefty was on about when SRing me right? BBT hasn't SRed me based on recent posts, he's just SR me through the whole game so far.

[ByronVilla]

There may be something that tells me you're town - but I want to ignore it for now.

OK now my vote is serious.

I see no reason for town to make this post without any questions or outlining reasons other than the quote itself.

I was at college at this point. I elaborated in 107 when I got home, but it was that specific post that pinged me about BBT.

And again, you would not have known I was 'witholding' informationa had I not stated it openly in a post.

Stop surface level reading and learn to Mafia bro.

Ok don't OMGUS. I am learning to play this game so let me, being an ass helps no-one. Just because you said 'oh guys I have info on how Lefty's town but I'm ignoring it', it doesn't excuse you from not giving us that information. You're still withholding information whether or not you tell us you have that information.

Scumread: BBT - Says stuff with no reason, and then when asked to elaborate he just ignores them or makes a snarky comment. It's probably me having a personal gripe, but withholding information from town is one of the scummiest things you can do imo, and this is a prime example.

Why would scum do this? How do you differentiate scummy vs just being an ass

I mean being an ass is a scumtell for me. I'll admit it's more anti-town than scummy, but I don't see town motivation in being confrontational, avoiding questions and in general just not giving information away. Scum motivation is in this, as it throws off town and blocks the information that they can work with.

Again gets a bit too edgy, I don't see town hitting out with the defence of leave me alone i'm learning, I mean the fact he's in the normal queue and not the newbie leaves him in a situation of sink or swim and he obviously believed in himself enough to sign up to games outwith the newbie queue.

I don't think I qualify for newbie queue, I've played two games as newbie and three games out of newbie so I don't think I can join another newbie game

Byron, why the change?

Has your read on me changed or is the read on Invis stronger?

My read on you has changed slightly, you're still an ass but scum wouldn't want to be an ass for the most part so you're like a slight scum lean now. (Ay you wanna answer that question still?)

Invis I just feel off about. Feels like they've just bounced around wagons with no real solid reads. Invis, can you give us a readlist if possible (Ideally with reasonings)? You keep saying so-and-so are town/scum but with no real explanation behind each read. Feels like a weirdly safe way of playing that I'm not a fan of.

This is either town that has taken advice of others and used it wisely or scum that has backed down from a losing battle and i'm not quite sure which.

I mean of course I'm gonna say the former but yeah I'm trying to play at least a bit more measured after my pretty ridiculous play in the me vs BBT squabble.

[ByronVilla]

I was at college at this point.

Are you outside of the US? I assumed that we were the same age.

College in the UK is 16-18 y/o

[ByronVilla]

Byron, why did you unvote? Garmr's logic was so clearly right, I just want to know what you were thinking.

I wanted to avoid a mislynch, and I was getting some big town vibes from Invisibility's last few posts and my gut just felt off about the way that the push had been going. As much as lynching him gave us a lot of info, I would still rather have avoided a mislynch than get the info but get the mislynch.

[ByronVilla]

In my opinion the push was too slow for it to be a push by scum. Like, the wagon was consistently on like 4 people for super long before everyone just kinda went 'Let's just lynch Invis'. It didn't feel like a lynch on scum, but a lynch for the sake of a lynch. I don't think there were many people who really were convinced Invis were scum, and that felt like a problem to me. It meant scum could lynch town with the excuse of 'it gives us info so let's do it'.

Invisibility

(4): Garmr, Performer, ByronVilla, BlueBloodedToffee

Also I think one of these are scum. Ironically I'm on there, but I feel like one of these just parked their vote and rode the wagon out to an easy D1 town lynch. Now I TR Garmr and I'm gonna take myself out, so my lynchpool coming into today is between Performer & BBT. That's obviously subject to change as the day plays out, but I'm gonna have my eyes on those two.

[ByronVilla]

EBWOP: Scrap that first sentence it makes no sense.

[ByronVilla]

Oh yeah I should clarify I think there were either one or two scum on the wagon, most likely two. One parking at the start and another hopping on at the end. (Funnily enough BBT actually fits both these criteria, as he was on the wagon near the start, then hopped off, then joined again to force the lynch)

And due to this,

VOTE: BBT

[ByronVilla]

BV, who is the scum that vote parked on Invis early on?

You. I think you put your vote on the wagon to give it some steam, went off on GEO on a bit when the wagon wasn't progressing as you were expecting, and then when the wagon was getting into lynch territory you hopped back on to secure the lynch.

[ByronVilla]

Oh yeah I should clarify I think there were either one or two scum on the wagon, most likely two.

You're the one exception bar the two scum theory, hence why I put the possibility of one in there.

[ByronVilla]

He is saying anything that fits with his narrative of scum!BBT to try and push my lynch.

You've been doing exactly the same with me.

[ByronVilla]

I'm not saying you've contradicted yourself, I'm saying you're looking for every opportunity to scumread me. More akin to tunneling than bad reasoning (even though the majority of your arguments are 'this guy is bad he contradicted himself therefore he must be scum')

[ByronVilla]

He is saying anything that fits with his narrative of scum!BBT to try and push my lynch.

You've been doing exactly the same with me.

Are you admitting that

you

have been doing that to BBT?

Not necessarily. I think my push at the start of D1 was bad, and so I can't entirely disagree with his statement, however right now I'm not doing that.

[ByronVilla]

did i ask bv about 907 yet? if not, i shall now. what made you townread invisi in their final posting and why did you not mention this in your unvote? i don't know how you intended on avoiding their lynch if you weren't going to give a case, and as it it sounds retroactively decided as a reason rather than one you had at the time.

Because we have a claim and scum can try and run someone else up. There is no certainty that if Invis isn't the lynch it will fall on Byron.

Not to mention that Byron's 'I like Invis' latest posts' was a load of shit. Looks like overjustification for leaving a wagon. How can he like Invis' latest posts?

Here's how, the posts are consistent with the way he's been posting. Posts like:

this has been a bad game for me

lol

lol

Whilst being kinda useless, are consistent with the style that Invis has been posting. I feel like Scum!Invis would've flat out just not posted these post, where really he's persistent with them. I understand this isn't the best theory, but my gut just doesn't sit well with this wagon. It feels like a lynch everyone just kinda mutually agrees on, and something that scum can very easily be pushing just to get D1 over and done with.

[ByronVilla]

Oh yeah and I was going to go into it the day after iirc

[ByronVilla]

Alright this day is shaping up to be teacher vs nosferatu, I'm gonna read through their posts and see what kind of vibes I get. I'll post my thoughts by the end of the day at the latest.

Sidenote:

just for that i hope panama wins

If England loses then I'm blaming you for jinxing it!

[ByronVilla]

Ok, let's get to it. I'm gonna highlight a few posts that outline my view. I'm feeling lazy so I might end up doing Nos in another post depending on how I feel.

Teacher:

213 is a weirdly null post. Like, I agree with everything on here, but this is a good post to revisit if teacher turns scum. It's likely if teacher is scum, that there is one scum in Egan/GEO/Nos. Whilst scum are inherently liars, they have to be truthful somewhere, and my gut says that it's here. Also the BBT vs Byron TvT read is off for me. It's a very late time to jump onto it, and I feel it's just echoing what others had already said beforehand.

He was in a very interesting position with Invis. We talk about Nos being in a weird position with the wagon, but teacher's impression on the wagon is an interesting development too. 491 is null, talks about them having issues with Invis, but knowing that town!Invis plays just like this so it's null, maybe even slightly town lean?
500 showed them starting to lean scum on Invis, saying they could hammer the wagon, however the wagon was only 4 people at the time? I don't like this positioning, as it shows they only plan on hammering the wagon, and teacher didn't even do that. This can easily mess with VCA, and I think it's important to class teacher as on the wagon in VCA if they had intent to hammer.

That's what's put me off about teacher. Mainly null, but a slight tinge of scum. Feels super hard to comment on, and I don't know if that's what they've gone for? I'll do Nos later and from what I've heard people have had the same kind of issues with Nos so we'll see what my take on him is.

[ByronVilla]

I should note I do like Teacher's D2 play, it's been a lot better so far.

[ByronVilla]

aite this is mainly a prodge, however at a quick glance I'm noticing a wagon on Garmr and I am very confused, I swear he was like universally townread. Also I'll get to Nos tomorrow, I've been doing some casting over the last two days so my attention's been on that.