Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Shoshin]

VOTE: the worst

[Shoshin]

VOTE: joral

[Shoshin]

Vote: Arcangel9

Why?

[Shoshin]

I don't really think Joral is scum tbh

Why not?

VOTE: Reality

[Shoshin]

My vote on Reality wasn't "random." 67 is scummy, and Reality ignored my question about it.

[Shoshin]

I don't

really

think Joral is scum

tbh

I bolded some of the language that pinged me. At this point, it made no sense from a town perspective to hesitantly defend Joral - literally none - and language like "really" and "tbh" suggests that Reality don't believe what they're saying themselves. And when questioned about it, Reality completely ignored me... So I'm happy with where my vote is.

[Shoshin]

That's boring, Joral. Why don't you join me on Reality?

[Shoshin]

Joral feels town. I liked his reaction in 148, plus his internal logic fits his reads.

[Shoshin]

i think angel is town

Why?

[Shoshin]

168's town.

[Shoshin]

the worst, what's your read on Reality? any reason I'm wrong about them?

[Shoshin]

my heart is still with shoshin though

Why?

[Shoshin]

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

[Shoshin]

faintly nullish badtown rn across the both heads

Why badtown rather than scum?

dem reads

Yeah, they're pretty bad - but why is that town rather than scum?

[Shoshin]

i don't really like 145. but since we are speaking is there anything else that you don't like about rc?

Their reads suck, they lack any sort of internal logic, and their play feels passive. You're probably right that I'm distant but don't take that as a scum-tell - I'm guessing it's because I don't know anyone so I'm relating to people as strangers, whereas most others here seem to have some history together.

[Shoshin]

193 suggests that Wheme's town if Reality is town.

[Shoshin]

If Reality's town, there's a certain degree of paranoia underlying Wheme's vote that feels very town. Like, why would scum Wheme alienate town Reality, the one player who reads Wheme as strong town?

[Shoshin]

Still reading Wheme as strong town, Reality?

[Shoshin]

Anyone interested in talking reads? I have fewer strong reads than I'd like after catching up.

How have your reads changed since catching up?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Sajj

[Shoshin]

...I can't follow your thought process too well with some of these votes.

What don't you follow? I explained the vote on Reality but it's obvious nobody wants to pressure them so I'm voting my other suspect. What's confusing about the vote on Sajj? She posts lots of meaningless commentary and doesn't commit to anything.

[Shoshin]

TPFKAP is probably town.

[Shoshin]

Look at my correct % in recent games. I'm done trying to convince you people. My record speaks for itself.

I don't think scum would boast about how great their reads usually are.

[Shoshin]

the worst, why is Sajj town?

[Shoshin]

the worst, why is Sajj town?

there is madness in my method

Can you answer my question?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

sweaty get off your high horse and go find actual scum

If you helped me out, then maybe I wouldn't vote you. But if you're going to obscure your alignment, then I'm going to assume it's because you're scum.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: the worst for an answer on why Sajj is town.

sweaty get off your high horse and go find actual scum

If you helped me out, then maybe I wouldn't vote you. But if you're going to obscure your alignment, then I'm going to assume it's because you're scum.

every other post in my ISO is transparent and conspicuously town motivated. if you get a stick up your ass abt one post which is VERY OBVIOUSLY hinting that I'm planning something with obscuring my read then I can only assume you're scum using an insanely stupid tunnel as a smokescreen.

I disagree. I still have no clue why you read Reality as "badtown" rather than "scum," and you've cluttered the game with tons of pointless posts. I liked your vote on Wheme and that was about it. I've seen scum do exactly what you've done in this game multiple times (including the whole "I'm not going to explain my reads yet because I have plans"), so if that's how you're going to play, I'm going to vote you until I have strong reason to believe you're town. I was hoping your explanation on Sajj would help me read you and her better... but I guess you don't want that?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, why is Sajj scum to you, again? And if you think the worst is scum off of townreading Sajj, then why are you dropping your attention off of her in pursuit of him?

Sajj hasn't taken any sort of meaningful position about anyone. Look at 317, for example. Or look at how quickly her push on me evaporated - she had a tone of conviction when pushing but in reality there wasn't anything to it.

I'm voting the worst because he's making it more difficult for me to read him and Sajj by refusing to answer my question, plus his "badtown" read on Reality doesn't make any sense.

[Shoshin]

Your reaction was closer to personally insulting than valuable for analysis of your alignment.

What? I didn't personally insult anyone.

[Shoshin]

I wonder what would have happened if I had refused to answer why I townread TPFKAP... bet the worst would have voted me for it...

[Shoshin]

I don't think I've really town told this game

every other post in my ISO is transparent and conspicuously town motivated.

Explain this change, the worst.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Reality Check

Not "badtown" anymore? What changed?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Reality Check

Not "badtown" anymore? What changed?

Is this a serious question

Yes. You don't like the way they're playing, that was obvious before, but why's it suddenly scummy now that they're voting you?

[Shoshin]

the worst, please respond to 404.

[Shoshin]

I'm also still waiting to hear why Sajj is town.

[Shoshin]

Can you read the last ~25 posts of our mutual ISO and tell me if you don't see where I'm coming from? I've literally explained this.

You haven't explained, no. I'm not asking why you think Reality is scum. I'm asking why your reasoning isn't consistent with "badtown."

[Shoshin]

407 doesn't address the issue, as nobody said anything about locktown. 299 and 355 were both defensive moves against being scumread... and both used completely opposed logic...

[Shoshin]

Anka is normally excruciatingly logical and communicative. The fact she is using armchair scumhunting and distancing herself from actually communicating on anything AI is an extremely serious alarm bell in my books.

Did you think Anka was "logical and communicative" earlier in the game when you called him "badtown"?

[Shoshin]

Why is "this is badtown" indicative of a scum mentality?

I got the sense that the worst was pre-inclined to read Reality as town rather than scum and the worst never addressed that concern in his response.

[Shoshin]

People keep saying Creature's game is easy to distinguish - can anyone link some representative games?

[Shoshin]

umm i don't get how exactly knowing why worst is tring me connects to sorting both of us.

why do you think we share alignment?

I didn't say you share alignment. Understanding how the worst thinks about the game helps me sort him, and understanding why he town reads you helps me see if I'm missing something about you.

[Shoshin]

um, in 317 i have committed to townreading PoR strongly enough that i won't vote her d1. thought it was pretty clear since it was an answer to vartsun's question. do you have better examples?

i have explained why i didn't actually push you hard, did you miss that post? quote to me that tone of conviction posts, please.

and the most important - explain why all of this is scum indicative.

I didn't see a strong town read in 317; saying you don't get scum vibes isn't the same as strong town. I'm not in the mood to get into a back-and-forth with you about why I think you're scummy, because even if you're scum it's not like I'm going to convince you of that fact. And I"m surprised you're arguing against the idea that your reads were weak and non-committal when you yourself said hat you didn't even have any strong reads (291's "null zone of fence-y reads").

You expressed conviction on pushing me in 150, 171, 173, and 175. You weren't just voting me, you were actively lobbying for more votes on me.

I think scum tend to play in the way you're playing, expressing weak reads, waiting for a clear direction to develop before committing to anything, and contriving pushes (pushing with a tone of conviction when there isn't any actual conviction makes me feel the entire push was fake). Lots of scum focus on faking a "town tone" but forget that the tone has to actually cohere with what they're doing in the game, and I don't get that sense from you.

[Shoshin]

I wonder what would have happened if I had refused to answer why I townread TPFKAP... bet the worst would have voted me for it...

assuming he would do that, what would it mean to you?

I wouldn't have done that because I think it's a legitimate question. It's fine to ignore boring questions that don't actually help sort alignments, but that wasn't my question.

If I'd refused to answer and the worst voted me, I'd say it was a valid vote. I certainly wouldn't get upset about it. I'd understand exactly where it came from.

[Shoshin]

I didn’t like Shosin’s reasons for her vote.

For the vote on Sajj or Reality?

[Shoshin]

I didn’t like Shosin’s reasons for her vote.

For the vote on Sajj or Reality?

Reality. However, I’m not clear whether that’s just wrong or scummy. I read the reasons you highlighted as NAI.

What's the problem with my reasons? Reality's read felt unnatural and fake (alignment indicative because townies don't fake reads), and the language used ("really" and "tbh") is the sort of language that scum tends to use when expressing fake reads (yes, town use these sorts of qualifiers too, but scum tend to use them more, especially when expressing reads that don't have any basis in the actual game - and that isn't just theory, it's something I've observed quite often when comparing the same player's town/scum game). Do you disagree with me that the read was unnatural (did you town read Joral at that point?)? And what's wrong with my point about language?

[Shoshin]

Why are you so concerned with how the worst thinks and reads thing, over any other player in this game?

I didn't say I care more about how the worst thinks than others, but at that point in the game, that's who I was interacting with / trying to sort - the worst had asked me a question about one of my reads so I had the worst on my mind as well as my top suspect, Sajj, and I noticed that we had a strong disagreement over Sajj so I asked the worst a question about it so as to better read them both - and it just so happens that the worst chose to deny my attempts to talk with him about the game instead of working with me so that led to a stronger push on him to get some answers.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, great, you like to fuck around instead of working with me to find scum... I've go to say, it's been a lot of fun playing with you the worst, you've been very welcoming and warm in our interactions. Thank you for that.

[Shoshin]

Like, I don't get it. Feels like the worst wants to look cool by posting lots of meaningless shit and then fucking with a newbie rather than actually scumhunting? But that makes him strong town in some people's minds? I don't get how anything he's doing is pro-town.

[Shoshin]

Um, your vote isn’t on Saj, it’s on the worst?

I voted Sajj before the worst - then switched my vote when the worst didn't answer my question.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, why are you reading Sajj as town?

[Shoshin]

I think my assessment of your vote is perfectly valid and you seem a bit too defensive over a completely reasonable assessment. I made it clear that that I wasn’t clear if it was just wrong or scummy. I was leaning in the direction of wrong but your overreaction to my comment is concerning. People make incorrect reads all the time for NAI reasons. I just didn’t see it at all as AI. If I had read your reasoning as scummy, my vote would have been on you not Renais.

You thought my response was a defensive overreaction?

[Shoshin]

If anything, 550 feels defensive.

[Shoshin]

I don't think I've said much about Renais.

[Shoshin]

What do you think about the reasons I voted Sajj?

[Shoshin]

Are you serious? In what way? I am trying to read you accurately but then you keep making questionable posts like this one. Is SS seeing something I’m not? This post is really pinging me, it almost reads like an OMGUS.Why? Because your post was definitely defensive and I rightly pointed that out. Why you or anyone could possibly view that as in anyway “defensive”, just baffles me tbh. Are you an overly paranoid townie or a defensive wolf?

Alright, I think I see what's happening here. My intent wasn't defensive, it was to better understand your thought process, so it felt weird to see you call it a "defensive overreaction" when I didn't feel that way at all - from my perspective it barely felt like I was "reacting" to you, more that I was "hunting." But I reread my post and I see where you get the defensiveness - it's because I went into some detail providing some context for the questions I was asking. I also reread your post and it looks like you might have done something similar - you weren't thinking of yourself as defending yourself but you spent a lot of time overexplaining things in a way that I interpreted as defensive in the context of my attempts to sort you. Our intent was probably equally non-defensive.

[Shoshin]

What do you think about the reasons I voted Sajj?

Well I thought it was based on his defending Renais and townreading her but now you say, it had nothing to do with Rennais. So now, I really don’t get it. If your reasons for voting him have nothing whatsoever do with Renais, then what else could you find possibly suspicious about it?

I've said other things about Sajj that I find scummy, though I definitely found her actions re: Renais scummy.

[Shoshin]

I don’t disagree that language can’t be AI but I really didn’t see the language Reality employed in that post as AI and I was townleaning Jorei at that point and I still am.

I think my assessment of your vote is perfectly valid

and you seem a bit too defensive over a completely reasonable assessment.

I made it clear that that I wasn’t clear if it was just wrong or scummy.

I was leaning in the direction of wrong but your overreaction to my comment is concerning.

People make incorrect reads all the time for NAI reasons. I just didn’t see it at all as AI. If I had read your reasoning as scummy, my vote would have been on you not Renais.

I bolded the parts that I interpreted as defensive.

[Shoshin]

Are you serious? In what way? I am trying to read you accurately but then you keep making questionable posts like this one. Is SS seeing something I’m not? This post is really pinging me, it almost reads like an OMGUS.Why? Because your post was definitely defensive and I rightly pointed that out. Why you or anyone could possibly view that as in anyway “defensive”, just baffles me tbh. Are you an overly paranoid townie or a defensive wolf?

Alright, I think I see what's happening here. My intent wasn't defensive, it was to better understand your thought process, so it felt weird to see you call it a "defensive overreaction" when I didn't feel that way at all - from my perspective it barely felt like I was "reacting" to you, more that I was "hunting." But I reread my post and I see where you get the defensiveness - it's because I went into some detail providing some context for the questions I was asking. I also reread your post and it looks like you might have done something similar - you weren't thinking of yourself as defending yourself but you spent a lot of time overexplaining things in a way that I interpreted as defensive in the context of my attempts to sort you. Our intent was probably equally non-defensive.

Alright. Lol. Did you catch my inclusion of the tbh and bolding it? I deliberately put that in to see if you’d scumread me for it. I’m feeling a lot better about you now.

lol yeah you thought I'd scumread you for that? I'm not that bad at mafia, I'm just trying to sort you and I appreciate that you're actually answering my questions because I feel like we're finally getting somewhere in this game.

[Shoshin]

I'm going to be so disappointed if you're scum, Nancy.

[Shoshin]

What is your read on Rennais, Wheme and Creature? I’m beginning to doubt my initial read on Creature based on his sounding somewhat antagonistic and his readslist is also making me wonder. However, I still can see few and far between attempts at possible “solviness”?

Renais feels troll, not sure about her alignment. If she keeps up as she is, she's going to get lynched. It's frustrating to play with but I'm holding out hope that if she's town, she'll eventually start doing things to make that clear.

Wheme's 155 felt scummy. I think at that point he should have recognized that Joral wasn't scummy enough to keep blindly pushing but he kept tunneling anyway. I thought about voting Wheme at this point but I also wanted to keep pressure on Reality because of her early town read on Wheme, among other things.

Creature's scummy. He hasn't done anything. Posts feel awkward. Doesn't seem to be hunting for scum. And from what I've been told, that's not how Creature plays as town.

[Shoshin]

I think however one reads Creature, his putting the worst as his only townread spews him as likely townie. If Creature is town, than the worst really is his strongest townread but if he is scum, than that also favours the worst as probably town. In a game I played with scum!Creature on MU, he asked why there was a wagon on a particular player (and only that player) and that player wound up flipping town. So, based on Creature’s readslist, there is no world where they can be w/w together. So, I completely agree with Vartsun’s reasons for townreading the worst.

Reading the worst via Creature isn't persuasive to me. What do you think of the actual things the worst has said/done in this game?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Creature

[Shoshin]

VOTE: the worst

Why did you vote for the worst here?

Are you serious?

[Shoshin]

I'm feeling zoned out of this game. I townread Nancy and that's about it at this point.

[Shoshin]

I kinda feel mentally drained from having to wade through so many shit posts that I can't help but feel like there's some sort of scum conspiracy to clutter this game with so much irrelevant nonsense that it's impossible to sort the town from scum.

[Shoshin]

Acutally, agreed. I have doubts on creature, but they can be solved later on.

VOTE: renais

VOTE: Creature

one of these two votes is probably scum depending on the renais flip imo.

Can you explain?

[Shoshin]

read on princess renais?

I don't know how to read her.

[Shoshin]

I haven't read anything since the start of D2 (if anyone wants to summarize for me that'd be great) I'm having trouble getting into this game. I'll try making some time eventually to read and figure out where I'm at with my reads but don't have it in me at the moment. I'm fairly confident Nancy is town based on D1 - that's about it - if anyone wants to talk with me about things in real time I'm around at the moment.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: creature

ty 4 bus

I lol'd at this too lol

[Shoshin]

How many scum should we expect in a 15 player game?

[Shoshin]

Random's response to Nico doesn't feel natural at all, almost like he's upset that we're confirming townies. I'd lynch him for that alone.

Creature needs to hang for obvious reasons.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

Random's response to Nico doesn't feel natural at all, almost like he's upset that we're confirming townies. I'd lynch him for that alone.

Creature needs to hang for obvious reasons.

ok yeah this misrep is dire

I didn't misrep anything - your reaction to Nico was hostile (do you deny this?) - and I have a tough time understanding why you reacted as strongly as you did (i.e. it felt unnatural). I also interpreted this as betraying a certain degree of frustration, frustration that doesn't make much sense from a town perspective (why would town get so upset over a player confirming another player via role mechanics?) but makes a lot of sense from a scum perspective because scum don't like it when players confirm townies as town...

[Shoshin]

Labyrinth Mafia - Votecount 1.33:

Creature (4): Vartsun, TPFKAP, Shoshin, WhemeStar
TPFKAP (3): Creature, Randomidget, Nancy Drew 39
NicoRobin (2): ArcAngel9, Princess of Renais
Princess of Renais (1): TehBrawlGuy, Joral
ArcAngel9 (0):
Shoshin (0):
WhemeStar (0):
Joral (0):
Nancy Drew 39 (0):
Vartsun (0):
TehBrawlGuy (0):
Randomidget (0):


Not voting: NicoRobin

With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

The day will end at (expired on 2018-06-07 15:00:00).

Wheme I'm gonna need an explanation for why you switched wagons then switched back when Creature is 150,000% obviously playing in his scum meta. I've seen you correctly identify this before and wagon him with fire, why the flipflopping yday?


also gonna need commentary from the following players on why the fuck they voted off-wagon yesterday, and also what their experience playing with creature is. i will be fact checking this
: - randomidget
: - nancy drew 39
: - arcangel9
: - princess of renais
: - nico robin [who I know has seen creature's scum meta firsthand, and did not bus him there]

i feel like creature was playing to his scum meta but he didnt care that he was? i think that he would at least have bothered to bullshit some reads towards the end of the day as scum.

Also, I am over the last day too. So anyone who wants to lynch Nancy will have to go through me first. So bring it on, nerdz.

sounds good.
VOTE: nicorobin
i'm not letting them get away with not playing the game.

btw guys anyone who votes me is scum
no evidence for it or anything
they just are

YoU hAvE bEeN wArNeD

also to clarify i have a hard townread on nancy
i just refuse to allow nico to get away with this bullshit

TIL being a PR in a role madness game lets you not play the game.

why do you even play mafia if you dont want to play mafia
unless its a post restriction or some shit, it still doesnt excuse refusing to post any content.

*refuses to vote in lylo*
*blames other people for not flipping someone*

i dont have a problem with you not having reads. i have a problem with you refusing to post any game related content.

Nancy, thoughts on Random?

[Shoshin]

i started complaining on day 1

This arguably makes Random even scummier... Scum often struggle to revise reads in light of new information because they're focused on keeping reads/behaviors consistent... and that would explain Random's unnatural hostility... Thoughts?

[Shoshin]

The Worst, tell me about Sajj (you've dodged this long enough) and thoughts on Random/Reality too, please.

[Shoshin]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

It's bad that you're defending Creature based on really scummy logic ("let's lynch the player that gives us more information instead of the player most likely to flip scum who we're going to lynch anyway at some point").

We could argue theory all you want but in actual practice scum push this type of logic much more often than town because at bottom it benefits scum much more often than town.

[Shoshin]

the worst, I've been asking you about Sajj since D1 and even voted you because of that, so stop playing dumb. If you're town, you're needlessly making this game harder by inciting my paranoia that you're scum and that's really harmful to the town at this point in the game when we really need to start working together. So, stop dodging my questions about Sajj, explain why you townread Sajj earlier in the game, and tell us your current thoughts on Sajj.

[Shoshin]

Nico, what're your thoughts on the worst?

[Shoshin]

Reality, what're your thoughts on Random? Please respond to my analysis there.

[Shoshin]

Creature is OK but I don't think that flip gives much of any info without another scum flip.

The thing about lynches like that is they're traps if the gamestate is one where most of town is pretty deep and only a couple are being competent

It's not necessarily what's going on here but it begs the question of now necessary it is to eliminate that quickly when there's a similar scum equity lynch with far more information attached.

It's bad that you're defending Creature based on really scummy logic ("let's lynch the player that gives us more information instead of the player most likely to flip scum who we're going to lynch anyway at some point").

We could argue theory all you want but in actual practice scum push this type of logic much more often than town because at bottom it benefits scum much more often than town.

lol

VOTE: Shoshin

good vote

It's a terrible vote. Hilariously bad. Like, here I am trying to figure things out, trying to get us all to start discussing our reads, offering some pretty thoughtful analysis on Random, arguing against the idiotic idea of lynching for information instead of lynching scum, and somehow I'm scum here? And it's a good vote? What the fuck, the worst?

[Shoshin]

It's a terrible vote. Hilariously bad. Like, here I am trying to figure things out, trying to get us all to start discussing our reads, offering some pretty thoughtful analysis on Random, arguing against the idiotic idea of lynching for information instead of lynching scum, and somehow I'm scum here? And it's a good vote? What the fuck, the worst?

did you read the rest of my analysis relating to that or...?

I didn't see any analysis... only a "lol" and a later post stating that my post was a "discredit" rather than a "rebuttal," which is sort of odd since I didn't say you're an "incompetent townie" anywhere, I said the logic you're pushing is more likely to benefit scum and more likely to come from scum.

[Shoshin]

or I could show you what happened in corpse party after I sacrificed one of my partners

how lynching scum lost town the game

or I could point you to the recently completed turn of camn game, which had three back to back scumlynches the first three days followed by town lynches until an endgame

I could probably find dozens of more examples for how scumlynches were bad for the game

information is much better

a scum lynch that has support and also gives a ton of information is by far the best possible choice for a lynch even if another slot is obvscum

creature is not that, he's a scum lynch that has support and doesn't give information beyond that

U N T I L - A N O T H E R - S C U M - F L I P S

I've also gone into why I don't believe this particular playerlist is likely to be able to come together and both catch and lynch all the scum after a few days if there aren't already a lot of information to work from out there

so...

???

There's lots of games where town lynched scum and scum still won... so fucking what? There's also lots of games where town lynched for information and scum won. That's a terrible way to determine whether the logic itself is pro-scum or pro-town and whether it's more likely to be pushed by scum or more likely to be pushed by town.

My point is that the logic is pushed by scum more often than it's pushed by town because it's an easy way to push for mislynches as well as an easy way to keep scum partners alive for longer. It's especially harmful to a town that just mislynched or a town that no lynched - as we did. I've even pushed this logic before as scum, with the specific intent of saving partners and delaying the town from doing anything helpful to their causes. As a matter of theory, the best town play on any given day is lynching scum, because the longer a scum player is alive, the more power scum has, period. You weaken scum by lynching them, and the weaker they are, the more chance town has of winning because there's less ability for scum to manipulate town in the night and day. Towns win by lynching the player most likely to be scum, not by lynching the player most likely to give you "information" (what the fuck does that even mean in this context?) - and the fact you're pushing this logic is scummy, regardless of your actual alignment or theoretical beliefs about how to play mafia.

As for the idea that this playerlist won't come together, that's a bullshit way to think about this game and it's especially manipulative in this instance - the town isn't coming together regardless of who we lynch because we've got a bunch of shit posters, you (incompetent town or scum), the worst (incompetent town or scum), and so here we are, arguing about dumb things instead of talking about things that matter, like Random's alignment, or Sajj's alignment. You guys would rather vote me for voicing a completely reasonable theoretical point about how to play the game instead of working together to solve the alignment of players who are escaping notice while doing some pretty suspect things? Okay... Sure, this town is fucked if that's the case.

I'm going to try working with the people I think are town - at the moment, that's Nancy and Nico - and if you're town hopefully you'll get on board and start working with us to figure out alignments.

[Shoshin]

Meh, fuck this. No point putting effort into a losing game. If you the worst and Reality are scum, I don't see any hope of convincing anyone to lynch them - and if they're town, they're actively not working with me, they're making me paranoid as fuck that they're scum, and apparently they want to lynch me, so I've got nothing left to do here.

If Nancy or Nico want to talk about things, let me know.

[Shoshin]

alright I'll pick this apart and respond to this piece by piece

I'm not reading your response.

[Shoshin]

Reality, this is what you need to be talking about right now:

Reality, what're your thoughts on Random? Please respond to my analysis there.

[Shoshin]

the baby with power can convince others to lynch there if they're scum.

Given Reality's earlier scumread on Random, but now voting me for dumb reasons while ignoring my analysis on Random, it's probably a good idea to check Reality. The Worst calling their vote good is also concerning, as well as the way he's dodging my questions and making it impossible for us to work together and intentionally making me more and more paranoid of him in a game where the town desperately needs to be coming together, not creating needless rifts.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, what're your thoughts on Random, Reality, and the worst?

[Shoshin]

Cool. We're rolling dice. I'm done with this game. Dunno why I even wasted my time reading this shit show.

[Shoshin]

Even our mod doesn't care about the game lol...

[Shoshin]

Reality, why are you voting me?

[Shoshin]

Alright, this is where I'm at:

Nancy, Nico - town

---

WhemeStar - leans town for pushing Creature/Random and because overall he seems to play without any concern for appearances in a way that's more likely to come from town than scum.

Joral - leans town because of his early play but hasn't posted enough to solidify a read.

Vartsun (Varsoon/Taly) - leans town because they haven't done anything to make me think otherwise plus early post seem aimed at sorting alignments.

ArcAngel9 - leans town, because of early negative utility claim, which I think is more likely to be town than scum motivated, and recent posting doesn't really make much sense from a scum perspective - it's the sort of crazy that's more likely to come from town than scum.

---

PFKAP - null, lots of shit posts without doing anything helpful

Princess of Renais - null, lots of shit posts without doing anything helpful

Scioness Sajj - null, because even though there's hints of scum, Nancy says she's town and I'm willing to suspend my read for the moment - as I mentioned earlier, I felt like she was pushing me with a tone of conviction but didn't actually have any conviction behind it, so the push felt fake - and since then she hasn't done anything to make me feel better about her alignment. I tried starting a discussion with her, as a way to get a better sense of her alignment as well as to refine my own reads on Random/Reality, but her answers were boring, so I still don't feel town here - she's mostly just commenting on things without much deeper thinking about the game but at least she's around and posting, so I'm okay trusting Nancy on this for the moment.

---

The Worst - strongly leans scum, because he's made himself unreadable by refusing to answer my questions, and despite telling him that it's causing me paranoia about his alignment at a time when this town needs to come together, not rift apart, he has chosen to continue refusing to answer my questions and thus to continue causing paranoia - in other words, he's intentionally causing me paranoia without any reason to do so and at a time when this town should be working together, it's precisely the right move to make because he gets to hurt town while avoiding getting lynched because nobody wants to lynch him and nobody seems to think that question-dodging is scummy - he's also been supporting votes on me despite offering no reasons to suspect me nor even voting me himself - and his read on Sajj hasn't been explained and I suspect it had no basis (i.e. it was fake) - and I'm also paranoid that he's one of the conspiracy forces trying to clutter the game with lots of pointless posts that make it more difficult for others to become engaged because of the sheer quantity of meaningless posts to wade through because despite his large post count I can't trace any sort of clear thought process trying to sort alignments underlying his posts.

Reality Check (Ank/Mastina) - strongly leans scum, because of terrible early posting, terrible vote on me, pushing pro-scum ideas (lynching for information instead of lynching to kill scum), not responding at all to my analysis of Random, and because if Random/Creature are scum, it's likely that Reality is too - also, they expressly said that scum should be scared of me, despite knowing nothing about me, which makes me think that they KNOW my reads are actually pretty good, specifically the fact that I called them out so early - like, why would Reality say scum would be scared of me if they think all my reads are wrong? Doesn't make any sense, unless Reality is scum. Reality's degree of certainty that I'm scum also doesn't square with anything they've said about my play - I disagree with them about an issue relating to how to play mafia, and suddenly they're 100% convinced I'm scum and won't even engage with me anymore? Won't answer why they're voting me? Won't talk with me about Random? That's the sort of certainty that scum faking a case on town display, because if town they'd have at least some reservations and at least try understanding where I'm coming from - but Reality instead is just straight-up accusatory without any attempt to actually sort alignments here.

---

Creature - scum, because of meta and because he's completely unengaged with the game, not showing much if any sign of scumhunting or figuring things out.

Random - scum, because of unnatural response to Nico, thoughtless response to my analysis, and because of terrible play at the end of D1.

[Shoshin]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

[Shoshin]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

[Shoshin]

Who wants to be that random is the Goblin King?

VOTE: randomidget

My first vote is in the works. Congratulations!

Works for me.

VOTE: Random

[Shoshin]

More reasons to suspect Random and Reality:

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

that's not the underlying reason she's scum, but it's a damn big indicator

These guys are basically ignoring all the analysis I've offered that clarifies precisely why I think what I think and why none of it is random.

[Shoshin]

So, basically, I'm willing to lynch any of the worst, Reality, Creature, or Random.

this team makes no sense

A

The Worst + Reality suspecting each other on D1 but coming into D2 100% convinced they're town? Makes sense as scum interactions.

B

Reality delaying the lynching of Creature? Makes sense as scum/scum.

C

Reality listing Random as possible scum but as soon as I point out that Random is scum Reality votes me for idiotic reasons and doesn't say anything about Random at all? Makes sense as scum/scum.

D

The Worst supporting Reality's vote on me while offering no comments on Random? Makes sense as scum/scum.

It actually makes too much sense that I'm worried it's wrong somewhere.

the amount of theater this would require is absolutely insane

especially when we're in a gamestate where half the playerlist has yet to check in for the day

This requires litte if any theater, only scum motivations and knowledge.

The only theater might be the distancing, which is a basic scum pattern that repeats in game after game, nothing close to "insane" theater because it's so consistent a scum pattern. Here, neither the worst nor Reality were the lynch for D1, but they sure went at it against each other for a bit - then came into D2 with strong town reads of each other. Scum motivation: distance from a scum partner without any actual risk of lynching the scum partner.

Reality votes me after I say that Random is scum. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

Reality tries to stop Creature from getting lynched. Scum motivation: delay lynching of scum. No theater involved.

The Worst supporting Reality's votes on me. Scum motivation: defend a scum partner. No theater involved.

This isn't "insane theater," it's just basic scum patterns on display.

[Shoshin]

More reasons to suspect Random and Reality:

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

that's not the underlying reason she's scum, but it's a damn big indicator

These guys are basically ignoring all the analysis I've offered that clarifies precisely why I think what I think and why none of it is random.

coming from the person who tells me that I'm scummy for trying to avoid a scum lynch for a scum lynch yet never explains why my reasoning is wrong, even though I thoroughly answered you when you went into why it was a scummy stance

Huh? I've explained why I think the way I do. You disagree with the way I think. That doesn't mean what I think is "random." Nor does it mean that I'm "ignoring" your position - I disagree with it, period. I'm not going to clutter the game up with a point-by-point argument and rebuttal about something that doesn't impact our alignments - you think one way, I think another, and the position I hold is one that's quite reasonable and normal for a townie to hold.

Let me ask you this: is it unfathomable to you that a townie would believe that lynching guaranteed scum is the pro-town choice rather than lynching for information? You think townies wouldn't think the way I do about this theory issue?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin ignored my rebuttals of their points to claim that no rebuttal was given

I didn't claim "no rebuttal was given." I think Random's "rebuttals" don't rise to the level of merit that would prompt a response - they're so weak that there's not really much point addressing them.

[Shoshin]

Reality, instead of defending yourself from what I'm saying, why don't you answer the questions I asked you earlier - your thoughts on Random, and why you're voting me?

[Shoshin]

it's scummy to push NOT thinking that as scummy despite it being explained without explaining why that thought process is scummy

I explained why I think the thought process is scummy - it allows scum to delay the lynching of their partners while pushing a mislynch which in turn prevents the weakening of scum power that results from lynching scum while wasting one of the town's mislynches - scum win by pushing mislynches and that's precisely what your logic allows scum to do with impunity while maintaining scum power in numbers and roles. And for the record, I specifically said that I didn't feel like getting into an argument about theory because theory arguments can be made on both sides of most issues and it's impossible to ever convince anyone of anything in the middle of a game - so I referred to what happens in practice rather than theory, and it's been my experience regardless of whatever theory points we bring up that scum push this logic more often than town. You disagree? Fine, disagree. That doesn't make me scum.

[Shoshin]

you're scum because your thought processes and thought trajectories aren't town.

Explain why you think this.

[Shoshin]

Reality, I really don't understand why you think disagreement about your logic means I'm scum. In case this isn't clear to you - I said your logic is scummy because of my actual experiences with scum pushing the exact same logic you're pushing. I've seen scum do it more often than town, and by that, what I mean is that I've never seen town push the logic you're pushing but I've seen scum do it multiple times. As a matter of pure theory divorced from actual play, it's easy for you or me or anyone to make arguments on both sides of any mafia issue - but all of that doens't matter when you get into the actual practice of how mafia is played. In theory, you gave some reasons for your logic - and I pointed out the reasons why scum would push your logic - specifically that it furthers scum's win conditions by allowing them to delay the lynching of their partners, to push a mislycnh, and to maintain scum power in numbers and roles. But I don't want to get into a drawn out argument about theory because I don't care much for theory - most of it is WIFOM and a rationalization after-the-fact based on actual play - in fact, that's why when a new player asks for advice on improving at scumhutning, the #1 piece of advice that pretty much everyone gives is experience, not to read every piece of theory knowledge out there, because no amount of theorizing will help you understand what scum and town actually do in actual games. There are certain patterns of behavior that you can only learn via experience and one of those patterns, in my experience, is that scum push the logic you are pushing. Your experience differs from mine? Fine, we've never played in a game before, so that's plausible. Does that mean I'm scum? No.

[Shoshin]

my thoughts on random is that he's in the poe list

I'd like to know what you think of my analysis on Random, specifically re: his reaction to Nico on D2.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, can you talk to me about TP?

[Shoshin]

Nancy, what do you make of Reality thinking that scum would find me scary to play against?

[Shoshin]

Strongly disagree with you on the worst. The fact they they are strongly pushing a Creature lynch in addition to their consistent thougtful analysis - plus Creature making him his only “official” townread, reads hardtown to me.

"Consistent thoughtful analysis" - where? which posts?

[Shoshin]

Are you serious? How you can still scumread NIco at this point makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

That's what I'm saying, completely unnatural response to Nico's posting...

[Shoshin]

I think randomidget’s vote on TP/letters is unlikely if their scum.

I don't think this clears randomidget unless Creature is town and TP/letters scum. If Creature's scum, there's nothing town about randomidget's vote.

[Shoshin]

The hell I won’t. I think Nico is town. Their response to my EOD push on them was the epitome of irate town. Why are you so sure that Creature cannot be scum? Creature was the worst’s hydra partner and he is scumreading him. D1, you opposed a Creature lynch, because “he’s too cute to lynch”, now suddenly you’re beyond convinced? I’m totally not buying this. I think you’re pushing a mislynch. @Shoshin , @the worst , what are your reads on this? I’m not liking it one bit. BOTH the Creature and Nico reads.

I think you have a good point. I forgot about the "he's too cute to lynch" post, that shift from light defense to absolute certainty is definitely suspect.

[Shoshin]

i think the process came after their positions

What makes you think this?

[Shoshin]

i think the process came after their positions

What makes you think this?

firstly, the fact that your initial response to my push on nico was dodgy and you then doubled down on it, secondly as RC said your scumteam doesnt rly make sense.
it looks kinda like you picked scumreads then found ways to justify them rather than the other way round

How was my response "dodgy" (and what do you even mean by "dodgy")?

I explained why a scumteam of you, Creature, and RC makes sense. But even if it didn't, so what? We don't have any flips yet, so why are you expecting perfect consistency? And what's the problem with my analysis? What exactly do you find wrong with my explanation of the various scum motivations and patterns in the interactions between you, Creature, and RC?

[Shoshin]

Nancy, please talk to me about your TP/letters read as well as your reads on the worst and Reality. It would be really helpful if you can address my analysis and convince me that the worst and Reality are town.

[Shoshin]

I know some of you are going to want to gloss over this because it's a wall but please don't. I'm going to lay out why Random's scum, and because some of you just aren't seeing it as clearly as myself and Nico, I need to dive into the sequence of Random's posts so that you see the full picture of what's happening.

In his early posts, there's already slight indications of scum motives and knowledge. In 479, Random townreads TBG - consistent with scum killing TBG because scum tend to kill their townreads on N1 - it's also notable because Random uses the kill on TBG to justify townreading Creature (saying that Creature's read on TBG was a "townslip"). There's hints of knowing too much in these posts re: TBG and Creature. (Also, as an aside, notice in this early post that Random townreads RC, which means it's plausible that Random/RC are scum partners (contrary to what RC and Random keep saying, the connection is plausible).

The scummy stuff really starts when Random begins to softly defend Creature:

aight yo wassup g's im here now talk to me
creature could be scum but seems kinda lynchabity nowatimsayin

If Creature is scum, this is precisely how a scum partner would behave on D1, testing out the possibility of saving Creature by throwing out a "lynchbait" concern without blatantly defending him as town. It's likely that Creature is scum, but even if Creature's town, Random's behavior is scummy: Random allows the lynch to happen by saying he "could be scum" without actually pushing it, precisely the type of move that scum often make in these situations. It's the sort of hedge that allows Random to eventually adapt to the situation based on the direction of the game and his ultimate motives re: Creature (i.e. whether Creature is town or scum).

Then Random votes PR as suspicon starts building on her:

sounds gucci to me
VOTE: princess of renais

He called PR town earlier in the game but now he votes her while softly defending Creature a few posts earlier. Why'd he townread PR earlier, and why'd he change his mind at this point in the game when suspicion is building on both PR and Creature?

Random continues to indirectly defend Creature throughout the rest of D1:

Acutally, agreed. I have doubts on creature, but they can be solved later on.

VOTE: renais

VOTE: Creature

one of these two votes is probably scum depending on the renais flip imo.

Can you explain?

Creature is either town or scum. If scum, scum will try to dtart a counterwagon onto renais. If he is town and renais is scum, then scum will try to push the creature wagon through before they have to defend renais

Random speculates about associations based on Creature's flip and PR's flip, which is another behavioral pattern that scum tend to fall into on D1 - as the lynch approaches on someone whose alignment they know, scum tend to speculate about what potential flips mean for other players in the game so as to contrive a course for their reads on D2 and potentially set up chain lynches. Scum tend to think in terms of these associations before flips more than town because scum already know who the town/scum are and so they're always in a position to see potential associations even before we have any flips. In Random's case, it's especially scummy because he's not only looking at one player's associations but he's setting up a false dichotomy between Creature/PR (why can't they both be scum?) and then looking at associations on that basis.

Again, the dichotomy between Creature/PR makes it clear that Random doesn't want a lynch on Creature but also doesn't want to actually call Creature town (either because he wants to defend his partner or he wants to let a mislynch happen) so instead he's talking about Creature at a second layer of analysis (i.e. talking about who Creature's partners are and who PR's partners are). Regardless of Creature's flip, this is scummy.

Then, in 750 and 753, Random suggests policy lynching TP/letters and Nico - which is another easy way for scum to avoid having to contrive reads or attempts to scumhunt as they instead focus on behaviors that have nothing to do with alignment - plus Random continues pushing for an alternative lynch to Creature.

Random's final posts on D1 further expose Random's desire to prevent (or delay) a lynch on Creature:

Consolidate your vote

Random urges others to consolidate votes while refusing to do so himself on Creature.

VOTE: tpfkap
nico, therre is a differnet between not having reads and posting nothing. not even pointless content or shitposting. not even non game relevant stuff. literally null posting. that isnt an acceptable playstyle and you are going to get lynched for it. i tend not to have many reads on day 1. but i still interact with people, ask questions and try to figure out where people are at.

Random looks for another wagon that isn't Creature on TP/letters while also casting shade at Nico. In short, he's looking for any lynch options that aren't Creature without actually having to come out and say that's what he's doing. And D1 ends in a no lynch.

D2 starts terribly for Random. In 830, when the worst questions Random's behavior re: Creature, Random gives just about the most bullshit reason you can come up with to justify not-voting Creature - "he's playing to his scum meta but didn't care so he's town?" - as if somehow playing to your scum meta means you're not scum because if you actually cared about the game you wouldn't play to your scum meta? It's pretty much the biggest piece of bullshit we've seen in this game, and it's suprising that nobody else has picked up on this. And, in the same post, Random votes Nico at a point where it's already pretty clear that Nico's probably town. This is especially scummy in light of Random's last post on D1 - it's like Random looked at his last post on D1, saw that most of his analysis was about Nico, and decided to keep his reads/behaviors consistent despite new information (Nico's D2 behavior) basically clearing Nico as town. It's also especially scummy because Random's vote has nothing to do with Nico's actual alignment, it's only about his play style - there's no attempt by Random to actually scumhunt.

The hostility that follows is entirely unnatural from a townie who reads Nico's posts:

btw guys anyone who votes me is scum
no evidence for it or anything
they just are

He mocks Nico.

YoU hAvE bEeN wArNeD

He further mocks Nico.

also to clarify i have a hard townread on nancy
i just refuse to allow nico to get away with this bullshit

He calls Nico's play "bullshit."

TIL being a PR in a role madness game lets you not play the game.

More hostility towards Nico.

why do you even play mafia if you dont want to play mafia
unless its a post restriction or some shit, it still doesnt excuse refusing to post any content.

More hostility towards Nico.

*refuses to vote in lylo*
*blames other people for not flipping someone*

More hostility towards Nico.

i dont have a problem with you not having reads. i have a problem with you refusing to post any game related content.

More hostility towards Nico.

I point out that Random's hostility towards Nico feels unnatural and Random immediately calls that a "misrep." Does anyone other than Random think I'm misrepping Random by saying his hostility towards Nico felt unnatural? What's the misrep there? It's like Random didn't think for more than a second about the validity of what I was saying and immediately reacted in a defensive way by calling my analysis a misrep. And then Random doubles down on attacking me:

i already explained why ur analysis was bad

Random says he explained why my analysis was bad but actually he hasn't. I can't find any posts where he explains anything of the sort. He just calls it a misrep without actually pointing out any sort of misrep anywhere.

As i said, shoshin seems to have chosen random stances rather than having genuine process

And he starts saying my stances are "random" without actually having any reason to believe that. It's basically pure OMGUS. Randomidget doesn't even have a thought process here - he's just blindly calling my stances "random."

Shoshin ignored my rebuttals of their points to claim that no rebuttal was given

There were no rebuttals, so what the fuck is Random talking about? He's just trying to cast shade on me for made up reasons.

i think the process came after their positions

What makes you think this?

firstly, the fact that your initial response to my push on nico was dodgy and you then doubled down on it, secondly as RC said your scumteam doesnt rly make sense.
it looks kinda like you picked scumreads then found ways to justify them rather than the other way round

He says my response was "dodgy" but what the fuck am I dodging? I said in no uncertain terms that Random's response was unnatural. What's dodgy about my analysis? Nothing. What's random about it? Nothing. What's scummy about it? Nothing. Random's not thinking about this, he's reacting defensively without any meaningful attempt to sort my alignment.

And finally, consider this:

OKAY. LET ME GIVE YOU HEADS UP

READ THE DAY START FLAVOR. THERE IS A HIT ABOUT SOMEONE THERE.

AMD DONT ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT IT.

Anyone who votes me or Nancy is scum. This ain't a bluff. I am a baby with power. You have been warned.

Can we lynch this. It should have happened yesterday.

YoU hAvE bEeN wArNeD

Another scum!

VOTE: creature

I am okay with lynch too. Creature is most certainly not scum.

But.....there is only one baby with power. There can't be two or more babies with power......

I am serious. Lets get this.

VOTE: Nicorobin

Hey, how about you and I lynch this? Then I won't inv. you.

Im down. I would say my main pool rn is them, tpf, renais and shoshin

This is an absolutely terrible post - AA9 calls Nico scum and Creature town - and Random agrees with it. Random suspects Nico, defends Creature, and now he suspects me too because... I suspect him?

I don't see how anyone can say that Random's town - there's no hints of towniness anywhere and lots of scummy behaviors. I'm down to lynch Creature today because of his total non-engagement with the game but I strongly, strongly urge a lynch on Random tomorrow, regardless of Creature's flip.

[Shoshin]

If that w means wolf, AA9 is defo town here.

Why?

[Shoshin]

Soshin are your reads in order in the sections in 1152?

Roughly.

[Shoshin]

it looks like you are interacting with people to the point you can get a scumread on them and you cling to that.

That's not what I'm doing - see my interaction with Nancy, for example - so I don't know why that's the sense you're getting. I've tried interacting with the players who are here but it's not going well and I can't figure out what the problem is. I'm trying to make things happen and to inject some adrenaline into what feels (or felt) like a toxic gamestate, I'm engaging players, asking questions, trying to talk about reads, trying to refine reads, but instead I'm getting a lot of hostility and aggression or simply getting ignored.

I tried discussing reads with you - I asked you some questions, I tried engaging you about the game - but instead of talking with me about things you responded sort of curtly and soon after you voted me. Alright, great. We didn't get very far. We didn't reach any sort of understanding about anything. No discussion. Just me engaging you, trying to discuss stuff, and then you voting me after barely putting any effort into discussing anything with me. It feels like I'm trying to figure things out, trying to engage with players, asking them why I'm wrong about things, but for some reason it's not going anywhere. Not much I can do about that. There's only so much a single player can do.

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that? I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

I point out something in Random's posts that were pinging me, his reaction to Nico - but instead of walking me through his thorugh process he immediatley gets defensive and calls my post a "misrep." Okay, great. Now he's calling me scum and saying all my stances are random when they're not. What am I supposed to do on that front? Townread the guy? I think it'd be weird if I weren't concerned about the way he responded to me. I reread his posts trying to figure out what I can, trying to see if there's any hints of town, but all I'm seeing is scum - so I try talking with my townreads about him (e.g. Nancy) because I'm trying to figure shit out and to get input from others. But apparently that's me "clinging" to a scumread. Okay...

I don't get what you're expecting. I'm here, I'm trying to figure stuff out, I'm explaining in as much detail why I think what I think, and I'm engaging the players in the game as much as I can to better understand their thought process...

[Shoshin]

I point out that Random's hostility towards Nico feels unnatural and Random immediately calls that a "misrep." Does anyone other than Random think I'm misrepping Random by saying his hostility towards Nico felt unnatural?

I do.

How so? What'd I misrep?

[Shoshin]

that's kinda how I feel with Shoshin she's scummy and anti town as shit and it's got me to the point of like....... is this rly scum? WIFOM

What's so "scummy and anti town"?

[Shoshin]

p sure that Random's hostility towards Nico comes from previous games they played together; Nico also confirmed that. Nico had poor showing late D1 so his reaction is understandable.

the baby with powers things - i came to the same conclusion Random did first time around; i didn't see the movie.
---

i have to wake up in two hours so i will answer you later but thewrost said you can start a convo with him about me, so maybe poke him a little in the meantie.

Where's the misrep? It's fine to disagree that the posts were unnatural but that doesn't make anything I said a misrep.

[Shoshin]

i have to wake up in two hours so i will answer you later but thewrost said you can start a convo with him about me, so maybe poke him a little in the meantie.

I've already tried starting multiple conversations with him about you... but sure...

the worst, this is me reaching out to you yet again to talk about Sajj.

[Shoshin]

Soshin are your reads in order in the sections in 1152?

Roughly.

You seriously think that Angel is still town after that gross Nico push and their completely inexplicable sudden hardtown read on Creature? If Creature flips scum (like I think he probably will), then Angel had better start lolcatting IMO. XD

I'm null on Angel - that reads list was made before I saw Angel's hardtown read on Creature and I hadn't had time to digest it yet. I can tell you that I'm much more sure about Random flipping scum than Angel.

[Shoshin]

I also feel the same as you but in reverse. Angel is scum, because Creature is also scum and there is no way that Angel and random can be scum together.

I strongly disagree that Angel and Random can't be scum together but I'll leave that discussion for tomorrow.

[Shoshin]

Reality's case is pretty bad.

[Shoshin]

@Reality

I have no intention of rebutting anything - that's not useful - but I do have some questions for you.

What's unnatural about an RVS vote on the worst, a quasi-RVS vote on joral to help get a wagon going when I saw my vote doing nothing on the worst, and then a subsequent vote based on reactions to the joral wagon? You say the progression doesn't make sense - which part of this progression are you struggling to understand? The shift from voting the worst to joral? Or the shift from voting joral to you? What's my scum agenda with these early shifts?

You said the "shift" in 181, 184, and 188 is unnatural "after the above." What's the "shift"? And what's unnatural about it? I was questioning the worst about you, the person I ended up voting "above" - why would it be unnatural to question the worst about his reads on you after voting you?

What was scummy about 194? Some elaboration on your thought process would be nice.

What do you mean when you say 360 is "weak" and why is that scummy? I'm going to present you with two scenarios:

(1) I suggest that the worst is town as part of some scum agenda to townread the worst, but then I decide that I can further scum objectives even more by scumreading the worst, so I deliberately fabricate a scumread on him and come up with reasons for that scumread after-the-fact, and luckily for me it turns out that precisely at the moment I'm fabricating my scumread I'm also in the middle of asking the worst a question that he's refusing to answer, so I use that immediate circumstance to justify my scumread.

(2) I suggest that the worst is town because I liked his reaction to Wheme's push on joral, so I start asking the worst questions about my scumreads because I want some input from a guy I'm townreading, but instead of answering a simple question the worst says he's not going to tell me why Sajj is town, so I start thinking that maybe the worst is throwing out reads without actually having any underlying thought process and maybe I was too quick to townread him for his reaction to Wheme, so I keep pushing for an answer to my question throughout D1 and D2 and the worst continues to needlessly creating a rift between us instead of quelling my paranoia and answering the question, so I start thinking that the worst didn't have any reason to townread Sajj so early and maybe now he's struggling to come up with a reason after-the-fact.

Why is scenario (1) more likely than scenario (2)? What's the scum agenda in (1)? Why is my reaction to the worst in (2) unlikely? As a matter of trajectory, do you think I decided to scumread the worst before I asked him that question about Sajj? Or are you saying that I asked the worst the question about Sajj, the worst refused to answer my question, and in response to the worst's refusal I decided that I could further some scum agenda by faking a scumread on the worst?

1. Read trajectories make no sense
2. Her playstyle reads as significantly leaning towards stream of conscious; players with this style that roll scum have a tendency to want to make sure their thoughts can be seen as consistent, which is why there's a lot of weird justifications for her votes and thoughts that are just added on, like it's an afterthought

There's no "justifications" for votes, only explanations. I understand that you might find my explanations "weird" and that my trajectories don't make sense to you. If you're town, you obviously don't think about mafia in the same way as me. You think lynching for information is preferable to lynching scum; I don't. But why is my way of playing indicative of scum rather than simply different?

The way you read stream of consciousness posting is by looking at how they're thinking and comparing it to what they're thinking

if you REALLY analyze Shoshin's posting under that umbrella, it's pretty clearly not consistent

Why do you think I'm putting all this effort into making my thoughts consistent if they're "pretty clearly not consistent"? What exactly do you find inconsistent? What posts? How?

3. She is trying to look like she has solid stances, yet she also tries to give herself as much room as possible to change them if she needs to.

Why is this the narrative you're telling? Why can't I be a townie who has some solid thoughts about certain players (e.g. Random, Nancy, Nico), but also doesn't have the same confidence on others, has lots of paranoia about certain players (the worst, lurkers, etc.), and is constantly reevaluating? Why do you think your narrative more likely?

[Shoshin]

shoshin 101
scumread someone for not responding to your case
ignore their response to your case
ignore someone else's case on you

I didn't scumread you for not responding to my case. Nor did I ignore your response to my case. Nor did I ignore Reality's case.

[Shoshin]

I didn't scumread random for "not responding to my case" - the suggestion itself is circuitous since the case outlines why I scumread him and his response to the case has nothing to do with that, lol...

[Shoshin]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

It matters because scum tend to throw townreads out without thinking about whether it's merited - usually when they know a player is town or when they're trying to manipulate townies into reading their partner as town - and then when they're questioned about it they struggle to explain the read because it never had any basis in the actual game.

Nancy had reasons to townread you when questioned, so yeah, comparing Nancy to the worst, Nancy's town, the worst is blah.

[Shoshin]

my lack of response to your push against me prior to the case was a major part of your scumread

Um, no.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Creature

[Shoshin]

Random, why do you think Creature's town?

[Shoshin]

i will posting this in paragraphs, probably easier to read

it looks like you are interacting with people to the point you can get a scumread on them and you cling to that.

That's not what I'm doing - see my interaction with Nancy, for example - so I don't know why that's the sense you're getting. I've tried interacting with the players who are here but it's not going well and I can't figure out what the problem is.

I don't think a conf/obv town that has a strong town read on you is a good example of interactions.
wrt your scum read on me - you've asked Nancy about her read on me (that was 20 or so pages ago), she was leaning town. you obviously don't agree with her reasons to townread me, you didn't ever try to talk her into scum reading me or ask her to be more specific what's so town about me. you only asked for information but did nothing with them. beside suspending your scumread on me for unknown reason, you did remember to highlight it's only temporary though
I can't really tell you why people your interaction don't go well. I don't think it's really that bad, besides worst nobody really is denying you anything. (and again, i have pushed you to talk things out with worst but you dropped as soon as you were supposed to go into specific so)

I'm trying to make things happen and to inject some adrenaline into what feels (or felt) like a toxic gamestate, I'm engaging players, asking questions, trying to talk about reads, trying to refine reads, but instead I'm getting a lot of hostility and aggression or simply getting ignored.

Eh I didn't really get a feeling you are doing those things.
I'm not sure why you put so much emphasis on hostility/aggression, from my experience (i've played only 4 games so i might have just been unlucky) that happens really often in games. if it makes you feel better i have also experienced worst's uncooperativeness first hand. it super frustrating when you don't know how to go around it.

Re: Nancy - go back and look at how I came to townread Nancy - it was back when she wasn't obt town to anyone.

Re: convincing Nancy you're scum - I'd never try convincing anyone of something unless I had a pretty high degree of certainty about it - in particular because I like people to form their own views without my influence because that makes it more likely for them to catch things I'm missing plus it makes it more easy for me to read them - towns already struggle enough to avoid confirmation biasing and I hate adding to that unless I'm really sure about what I'm saying (e.g. with Random).

Re: interactions and hostility - I'm new to this site but I can tell you the town meta here is very weak compared with others in large part because towns don't work together - if people stopped trying to be the lone hero and instead put some faith in the collective intelligence of town, we'd get a lot more done.

It's good to know you're new - that would explain why you're paranoid about me - the experienced players (particularly Reality) should know better.

[Shoshin]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

I didn't abandon the idea of speaking with the worst - I made a post directed at him about you based on what you said and he didn't reply. You think I need to be more specific? I want to know why he townread you back in the earlier part of the game when I scumread you - and I want to know what he thinks of your play since then. I can't get more specific than that. He's the one who townread you...

In terms of his play, the problem is that I've seen scum do what he's doing a lot - they throw out a townread on someone who is actually town without thinking about why the player is town, then when they get questioned about it they have no clue how to respond so they ignore the question hoping it goes away without ever having to answer.

[Shoshin]

I point out something in Random's posts that were pinging me, his reaction to Nico - but instead of walking me through his thorugh process he immediatley gets defensive and calls my post a "misrep." Okay, great. Now he's calling me scum and saying all my stances are random when they're not. What am I supposed to do on that front? Townread the guy? I think it'd be weird if I weren't concerned about the way he responded to me. I reread his posts trying to figure out what I can, trying to see if there's any hints of town, but all I'm seeing is scum - so I try talking with my townreads about him (e.g. Nancy) because I'm trying to figure shit out and to get input from others. But apparently that's me "clinging" to a scumread. Okay...

well, i have talked to you about Random misrep thing. it doesn't seem to have any impact on you, that's why i think you are clinging. i think something very similar is also random's reasoning but don't quote me on that.
it also feels like that with your read on my slot.

I dropped my read on your slot, in case you didn't notice.

As for Random, you said that you think I misrepped him. I know for a fact I didn't because the term misrep actually implies a scum intent, which I don't have - as for the facts, it's undeniable that Random was very hostile towards Nico - so there's no misrep. I understand that you don't think the hostility was scummy but I strongly disagree. The hostility was formed on D1 but it shoudln't have contineud into D2 the way it did.

[Shoshin]

why is someone town reading me such a big deal

i don't think anybody in this game justified their reads on me

It matters because scum tend to throw townreads out without thinking about whether it's merited - usually when they know a player is town or when they're trying to manipulate townies into reading their partner as town - and then when they're questioned about it they struggle to explain the read because it never had any basis in the actual game.

Nancy had reasons to townread you when questioned, so yeah, comparing Nancy to the worst, Nancy's town, the worst is blah.

do you think knowing why the worst is town reading me will clear both of us?

It's a start to clearing him. If he brings up really good points about you, then it clears you too, but that depends on the quality of the worst's reasoning.

[Shoshin]

oh wow, took me good 4 rereads to figure out the progression thing but i see it now.

Explain it to me.

[Shoshin]

Sajj is town after this page's posting.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I've come around on Sajj. The fact that she read Reality's post 4 times trying to understand the progression point should clear her - scum don't do that sort of thing, and I don't think she's experienced enough to fake that sort of post.

[Shoshin]

Random, why do you think Creature's town?

i don't particularly anymore and didnt at any pint. i just thought tpf was more likely scum and them being svs was unlikely earlier but now that they've apparently given up less so.

I'd understand changing your mind about this, but saying you didn't at any point is hard to believe. It doesn't square with anything you've been saying/doing so far...

[Shoshin]

Is Anka this bad as town?

[Shoshin]

I'm curious what Mastina thinks - she apparently observed a recent game I was in that just finished, so she should have a sense of my meta as town.

[Shoshin]

That anlaysis looks a lot better than anything Reality's given in this game.

[Shoshin]

Reality, the questions I asked you about your case weren't just rhetorical - if you still think your case has any merit, I'd like you to answer them.

[Shoshin]

yes Anka has her own methods and will do her own thing and think creatively rather than be "conventional" as town. even if it's totally grating to some people. but no she's defs not bad

You think her case on me is creative town? Have you read it?

[Shoshin]

if you're town your issues with Anka are prolly playstyle related

I think if she answers my questions about her case in a way that show some sort of thought process then okay, but I don't see any sort of thought process underlying the case.

When someone doesn't have a thought process, it usually means they're scum. Usually.

[Shoshin]

also regardless of alignment you ask some pretty weird questions and get really fussy about them. I'm gonna keep scumreading you for that

Most of the questions I ask have a pretty clear purpose - sometimes they don't, and in those cases it's usually a reaction test to see if a player ignores it, because I think town tend to ignore silly questions more than scum - but when the questions are meaningful, I expect answers.

I think most of the players in this game underestimate my town game because they haven't played with me before - my questions might not make sense to you because a lot of the time they're designed to create challenges for scum.

[Shoshin]

how do you read me Shosh?

I'll reconsider you after Creature flips.

Why'd you read Sajj as town earlier in the game when I asked you about it, and why'd you make such a big deal about not explaining the townread?

[Shoshin]

I'll get to it later

the thing is I'm kind of hesitant to respond to it because a page full of quote walls is one of the least fun things I've ever seen in mafia (HI 2011 META)

You don't need to quote anything - type up the answers in separate paragraphs and I'll follow it.

[Shoshin]

all due respect but your questions present as very easy to make up answers to. the trajectory of them is kinda hit and miss and they don't seem to demand very nuanced answers. this is a big part of why my initial take on you was lolscum busywork

Questions don't need to demand nuanced answers to get some really meaningful information. Like, earlier in the game when I asked joral to vote Reality with me, it seems like a pretty dumb question but actually I was carefully checking joral's response to it.

[Shoshin]

I only made a big deal about not explaining that read because you kept fucking asking about why I wasn't answering you and then vanity voteparked me for NAI reasons

And you think this is pro-town? Like, assume I'm town for a moment. I'm trying to read both you and Sajj better. And you're just making me paranoid about you while also making it harder for me to read Sajj... for some giggles? Or what? The vote wasn't "vanity," it was legitamitely because I felt like you were playing pro-scum. And your reasons for doing it certainly don't evidence any sort of pro-town intent...

[Shoshin]

that was one of your high points

I thought so. Really pushed the game forward.

[Shoshin]

It's the same thing with the worst. I try interacting with the worst but he refuses to answer any of my questions or discuss the things I want to discuss with him - how am I supposed to react to that?

Let it go? Town should but won't always works together, you can't force people to play like you'd want them to. No answer is also an answer, thought I don't think that's a good strategy.
I think you have only asked him about the townread and some explanation about you. i have tired to solve the former for you but you abandoned the idea.

I tell him that it's making me paranoid about his alignment and ask him kindly to interact with me so that he can help me townread him and we can work on refining reads - he continues to ignore me. I'm doing my best not to let my paranoia get the best of me but when I'm confronted with a choice between suspecting perpetual lurkers or the guy who posts more than anyone else but doens't seem to actually be saying much plus can't even spend a second to explain one of his reads to me or to engage with me about the game, what am I supposed to do? I scumread that player because I find what he's doing pro-scum in effect.

yeah what you talk about is perhaps antitown. but you can keep lurkers and hm in his poe. like i'm not really sure what do you expect me here to say to you. i see you are trying to talk with other people about him and i think that's the way to go.

I didn't abandon the idea of speaking with the worst - I made a post directed at him about you based on what you said and he didn't reply. You think I need to be more specific? I want to know why he townread you back in the earlier part of the game when I scumread you - and I want to know what he thinks of your play since then. I can't get more specific than that. He's the one who townread you...

In terms of his play, the problem is that I've seen scum do what he's doing a lot - they throw out a townread on someone who is actually town without thinking about why the player is town, then when they get questioned about it they have no clue how to respond so they ignore the question hoping it goes away without ever having to answer.

Look at the worst Creature progression. He started out defending Creature and trying to get votes off of him. As Creature revealed to be less and less likely to be town, the worst shifted and seriously began to question his initial read. It is beyond obvious that the worst has been really struggling with Creature’s alignment and even as recently as yesterday - after strongly pushing his wagon - the worst was practically begging Creature to throw him some bone of towniness which he wouldn’t be oblige. If this isn’t the most villagery-based push in the history of Mafia, I don’t know what is.

Really good tell - No matter how strongly villas push on players unless they are horribad town, they are almost always open to reconsiderng ther reads - both scum and town - based on new information and the current gamestate. This is why Angel’s post is so suspect. Their hard defending Creature at this point in the game egregiously contradicts the Creature whisperer’s logical, well-reasoned push on him. The just sheep them - no questions - push on Nico is equally scummy.

That's a good point about the worst wanting to townread Creature and struggling with his obvious scumminess.

[Shoshin]

the worst, why'd you read Sajj as town earlier? I'm like on the verge of townreading you, throw me a bone. Think about how you felt with Creature - you wanted him to throw you some town. Now think how I feel about you. I want to townread you but you're making that hard for me. Please help.

[Shoshin]

lol

[Shoshin]

How do you make a sig?

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I've come around on Sajj. The fact that she read Reality's post 4 times trying to understand the progression point should clear her - scum don't do that sort of thing, and I don't think she's experienced enough to fake that sort of post.

disagree with this logic

What's your read on Sajj?

[Shoshin]

Where's Taly?

[Shoshin]

Does anyone know of any games Shoshin has completed recently or something I can get a feel from them on?

I have two recently completed games: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=76215 and viewtopic.php?f=2&t=76303

[Shoshin]

Taly, do you agree or disagree with me that Random played a major role in causing a no lynch by softly defending Creature throughout D1?

[Shoshin]

1593 and 1594 resolve a good bit of my uncertainty on Reality. I don't think scum would necessarily state the reasons for why an investigation on them would be unnecessary, and their post rings to me as genuine.

I don't follow... If Reality's scum, wouldn't they want to avoid an investigation?

[Shoshin]

nice leading question

That's not a leading question, unless you think any yes/no question is leading.

[Shoshin]

your point? do you expect to be townread because you have townread somebody? you have started interacting with her because she was considering you to be scum.

I never said you should townread me because I townread Nancy. No idea where you got that impression, nor do I understand your hostility towards me. To be clear, you said that I only interacted with people up until the point where I could get a scumread on them; I pointed you to my interaction with Nancy as a direct counterexample of your claim. The point was to show that you were mischaracterizing my play, which you seem to be doing yet again. Why do you keep doing that?

You have put your vote on me, you were surprised that Taly didn't get your vote, was that all for lols? Meh, what you wrote there is true if you didn't really scumread me at that time but in your next replay you said you did so I'm lost.
If you don't want to influence people you shouldn't post itt. I'm pretty sure people are more likely to get influenced indirectly than directly. I get why you wouldn't want to do that if you were already townreading Nancy but it happened before.

Surprised that Taly didn't get my vote? I have no clue what you're talking about. I didn't vote you for lols, I scumread you. But just because I scumread you doesn't mean I had absolute certainty that you were scum, nor does it mean that I wasn't open to reading you as town upon further reflection or on the basis of new information. That's why I wanted to talk to the worst about you (he townread you and I thought maybe he saw things I missed), and it's why I asked Nancy about you (she townread you and I thought maybe she saw things I missed). My objective was to figure out your alignment, not to convince someone you were scum.

You're right that if I don't want to influence people I shouldn't post at all, but that's not a viable strategy, because as town we have a responsibility to make ourselves readable to our fellow townies. The challenge is striking a balance between posting enough to be townread and not posting too much that you unduly influence how others see the game. My way of striking that balance (and everyone has to figure that out for themselves, there's no right way to do this) is to post my reads, to explain them when asked, to discuss my reads with others when there's disagreement, but rarely to try convincing others that I'm right and they're wrong. If I truly wanted to convince you guys of something, I probably could - but at that point it wouldn't reflect my actual thoughts on the game, it'd be the result of my rhetorical skill - and I don't think that's pro-town. As I said before, I trust the collective intelligence of town more than myself because all of us have blindspots that the collective ideally helps us make up for.

Problems don't solve itself, if you are not trying to solve the problem then you are a part of it.

Yeah, what do you think I've been trying to do?

I thought you said you only played a couple games of mafia but I guess I was wrong.How many games of mafia have you played? How experieneced are you?

I don't understand where the hostility in your posting comes from. Please explain.

[Shoshin]

1649 basically wiped out any townread I was developing on Sajj. Struggling to see how a townie responds to me that way.

[Shoshin]

I don't understand where the hostility in your posting comes from. Please explain.

It's good to know you're new

Could be. I dunno. She said she's only played 4 games so I don't see why she'd take offense to that statement. 4 games isn't exactly veteran status.

[Shoshin]

from my experience (i've played only 4 games

"Only 4." Even Sajj's phrasing implies she's new/inexperienced.

[Shoshin]

was i really hostile?

Yes. You're continuing to attack my reasoning when my previous posts should have already cleared everything up.

[Shoshin]

Could be. I dunno. She said she's only played 4 games so I don't see why she'd take offense to that statement. 4 games isn't exactly veteran status.

You never decide player's experience with join date or games played in this site.
This is not the only mafia site ya know.

Her posting made it pretty clear she's "only" played 4 games ever.

[Shoshin]

not agreeing with somebody =/= being hostile

There's a difference between telling someone, "I disagree," and continuing to attack someone with relatively-strong language (e.g. "your point?" followed by a mischaracterization of my play) when your concerns have already been cleared up by previous posting. The hostility comes from the fact that you're continuing to attack my posts by making up new problems that don't actually exist and don't even cohere with your previous line of questioning.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin what the hell is your problem

That sure sounds hostile, too.

[Shoshin]

@Sajj

your point? do you expect to be townread because you have townread somebody?

Why'd you ask me these questions? You know that I was replying directly to a previous line of questioning, so the "point" is to reply to you, obviously. Why were you confused about the point? And why ask about whether I expect to be townread because I've townread someone? Where'd that question come from? Did you think I'd answer it affirmatively?

Problems don't solve itself, if you are not trying to solve the problem then you are a part of it.

What's the point of telling me this? Were you implying I'm part of the problem? If not, why say this?

[Shoshin]

Sajj, I didn't say you were upset. I said you were hostile, which given your continued scumread, seems I was right.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Random

[Shoshin]

I know some folks are gonna be shocked that GiF flipped town but I'm not - the way he read my interaction with Sajj showed some pretty close reading of the game that isn't typical of scum.

Random's by far the most likely partner to Creature. My case earlier in the game points that out pretty well.

[Shoshin]

If Random's the jailkeeper, I'd lynch Sajj today.

[Shoshin]

Update I'm now down to powerlynch every player who even thought about trying to stall the creature wagon

So, Random?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: ArcAngel9

Other than Arc, who else are you willing to lynch? Did the flips have any impact on your reads?

[Shoshin]

Shepard, what do you think about Arc?

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin I don’t like how AA9 lied to my face.

What's the lie?

You do realize she's trolling?

[Shoshin]

I'm sad Nico is dead.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, why are you so sure Random is town?

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin I don’t like how AA9 lied to my face.

What's the lie?

You do realize she's trolling?

Pretty sure that is not a troll.

She said she could do something with flavor.

Nothing happened. Vote stays until she explains.

There's things I find scummy about Arc but this isn't one of them. What's this "lie" hiding?

[Shoshin]

Are there any guidelines on the line between bastard and non-bastard games?

[Shoshin]

Reality, you'd probably read me better if you stopped comparing how I play to how you play because we obviously think very differently about the game.

[Shoshin]

I REALLY CANT STOP THE LYNCH, IT IS MY JOB TO PROTECT PEOPLE HERE!!!

The sense I'm getting from AA9 is that she's forced to protect certain players (e.g. Creature) and maybe even to attack others (e.g. Nico) though I'm unsure about the second part.

I doubt AA9 flips scum here. Most likely has some absurd negative utility, just like she claimed at the start of the game. If she's faking this, I'd be very shocked.

[Shoshin]

2037 is a fine post, the worst. Reality shouldn't be scumreading me and her reasons for doing so are bullshit.

[Shoshin]

Hey Nancy, I think we should rethink the lynch on AA9. It's too obvious that she's playing the way she's playing because of her role, which she warned us about right away on D1. Yes, she defended Creature but was it because she's scum or because she was forced to by her role? She says Nico is town yet votes Nico... then says she's going to the redirect of Creature lynch onto Nico without actually having the ability to do that (if she were scum who could redirect then she obviously would have without saying anything)... and then says it's her job to "PROTECT" people... it all adds up to some bizarre role where she doesn't have control over who she reads as town/scum.

[Shoshin]

2037 is a fine post, the worst. Reality shouldn't be scumreading me and her reasons for doing so are bullshit.

the way you flail feels like scum who's been caught for the wrong reasons. just generally feedback. do you think she's scum fabricating it or do you think she's just wrong?

I haven't been flailing so I disagree with that. My biggest frustration this game was that people weren't coming together to work as a town collective (e.g. you kept denying me answers for no reason except your personal giggles despite the obvious fact it was making me paranoid about you), which has nothing to do with being suspected.

As for Reality, I'm not sure yet. She didn't answer my questions about her case so I have no way of knowing whether it's bad because it's fabricated or bad because her way of thinking about mafia sucks.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I'm not saying AA9's role is a pro-town role, but it's also not a scum-sided role. It's a role that's designed to make the player more likely to be lynched, and that feels town-sided in a game where there's more than a couple players who are going to be locktown from roles alone. It also explains AA9's bizarre behavior as well, so not exactly good reason to lynch her.

[Shoshin]

I did something last night but I dunno if it's what you're referring to, Reality. So that's a pretty pointless question to ask me.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, I'm not saying AA9's role is a pro-town role, but it's also not a scum-sided role. It's a role that's designed to make the player more likely to be lynched, and that feels town-sided in a game where there's more than a couple players who are going to be locktown from roles alone. It also explains AA9's bizarre behavior as well, so not exactly good reason to lynch her.

What would be the purpose of that? And if something in her role pm says she has to push obvtown, makes 0 sense to me. I remember GIF townreading her but I couldn’t see anything in his flip that would account for this.

The purpose of AA9's role? Mislynch bait in a game with lots of locktown roles. It's a pretty common pattern for role madness games like this.

[Shoshin]

is it the type of role that functions immediately?

I don't know what that means. I think the way I used my role confirms me as town in light of what happened last night but that's all I'm saying about that.

[Shoshin]

I did something last night but I dunno if it's what you're referring to, Reality. So that's a pretty pointless question to ask me.

Why do you think random or Sajj could be the jailkeep? I think you mentioned that a couple of times.

I didn't say that aboutu Sajj. As for Random, in the the unlikely - emphasis on unlikely - event that Random's jailkeeper, I'm willing to rethink my read. But otherwise, Random needs to be lynched. I know you think he's town because of something he may have said in your hood but you really need to reevaluate that because whatevr you think is town about him probably isn't unless his role actually confirms him as town.

[Shoshin]

Reality, what's your read on Random?

[Shoshin]

We need to lynch Random and it's only going to get harder to do as scum kill players who suspect him. I'm probably dying tonight and definitely before LYLO. So I dunno how we're going to win this if Nancy doesn't rethink that read.

[Shoshin]

Hey Shepard, I'm thinking AA9's town. Just look at my recent posts for why.

[Shoshin]

Reality, if it's better the role remains hidden, stop fishing.

[Shoshin]

I did something last night but I dunno if it's what you're referring to, Reality. So that's a pretty pointless question to ask me.

Why do you think random or Sajj could be the jailkeep? I think you mentioned that a couple of times.

I didn't say that aboutu Sajj. As for Random, in the the unlikely - emphasis on unlikely - event that Random's jailkeeper, I'm willing to rethink my read. But otherwise, Random needs to be lynched. I know you think he's town because of something he may have said in your hood but you really need to reevaluate that because whatevr you think is town about him probably isn't unless his role actually confirms him as town.

He was open, forthcoming, helpful, solvey and of his own accord offered up info to me that he didn’t need to. Therefore, I am not in any hurry to lynch there.

Have you reread his posts in the actual game thread?

[Shoshin]

Look at 1907. She protects Random. And Angel's version of scumhunting is protecting the scum. So, yes. I'd say she has been scumhunting.

[Shoshin]

Look at 1907. She protects Random.

And Angel's version of scumhunting is protecting the scum.

So, yes. I'd say she has been scumhunting.

That isn’t protecting or hunting.

That is just lazy.

What @ the bolded?

So, if I understand you correctly here Shoshin, are you saying that by pushing Nico and me, she was doing the exact opposite of xhat she wanted? Like pushing us because she knows we’re town and has to do the exact opposite? Is this like an insane cop or something?

This is what I'm suggesting. She said she's "negative utility" so it's not as implausible as it might sound. Reread her posts under the assumption that she has to attack obvious townies and protect the scum and suddenly it all makes perfect sense. Then look at what she said at the end of D2 - that it's her role to "PROTECT" certain players and Creature is one of them.