Mini 2014: Succinct Mafia (Over)

[Hiraki]

Quick question here - quoting doesn't contribute to the word count, right?

<<< Full answer in post 30. Quotes do not count, but don't abuse this; follow rule spirit. >>>

[Hiraki]

I guess my question is if it'd be better to link to the post then.

If I need to do a 4 page review, I'm gonna quote. I might not say much after the post but I still need to draw some context.

[Hiraki]

Vote: Momrangal

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote:ArcAngel 9

[Hiraki]

I don't think ArcAngel had sufficient reasoning to cast a vote of that nature. Do you?

[Hiraki]

Don't assume why I vote. I voted because I didn't like Arch's vote. He had the ability to see past what someone he thought was scum did, and then did it himself.

If I wanted to sheep Wisdom, I would've said something. Instead, I voted after his explanations.

[Hiraki]

The bottom bit doesn't make any sense. You weren't sheeping Wisdom and yet you waited for his explanations to vote?

Sorry that didn't make sense, mostly due to pronouns. I am voting Arc because Arc is being hypocritical. Arc is being hypocritical by voting someone for bad reasons while saying that Wisdom's reasons were bad. I agree - Wisdom's reasons were bad. Arc's reasons are worse; for a person who is confused on the rules, that same person is going to vote Wisdom for not understanding her viewpoint? That's extremely hypocritical and a position that I think comes from scum rather than town.

@TheBrie - We've had enough games where you should realize that me posting briefly is the norm, especially with voting. Why are you trying to act like it's something new?

@All - this is my last post for this page. I cannot respond to you until a new page starts.

[Hiraki]

This makes more sense. Why couldn't you articulate this with your vote?

I just historically don't do that a lot. Especially in the early game. Ruins the point of dialogue.

TheBrie is weird but it's not her normal scum meta. That perturbs me for two reasons:

1) It's almost as if she's trying NOT to fit into any meta - this is null to an extent.
2) There's way too much tryhard in it all. For example:

You're not the only one feeling something off about Kokichi. Not strong enough to say scummy, especially for someone I don't know, but something.

I feel the same way about TheBrie right now but at least I can articulate it. It's Page 4. I also have no clue what this "strange feeling" about Kokichi is.

VOTE: kokichi

Really starting to want to believe that Arc v Wisdom was SvS.

[Hiraki]

You're really showing it.

[Hiraki]

You should probably read those infraction rules one more time.

[Hiraki]

I think he's asking if the 24 hour clock is fixed on midnight or if it's fixed on the actual post.

I'd think it's the actual post since there are differences in timezones.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki did you ever say why arc v wisdom might be S v S?

Mostly because I'm SRing both of them. SvS is a stretch due to the way Arc handled it but plausible.

[Hiraki]

I do. He called on me for trying to understand rules. How is that AI?

This isn't actually what happened.

[Hiraki]

What happened is that he voted you for asking a fluffy question. At best, this vote is absolute garbage. At best, the vote is still absolute garbage.

You then voted him for voting you on an absolutely garbage basis and acted like it wasn't actually garbage AND that it might gain traction. Either way, it's scummy.

[Hiraki]

Koki, what do you think about Arc's last post?

[Hiraki]

Arc
1) out of curiousity whats your first language than?
2) do you townread or find wisdom null? Im bad at recognizing sarcasm
3) ....why....exactly are you on hiraki?

1. Telugu
2. I town read him for his reaction test on me. I don't think see a behavior like that would come from a mafia member.
3. Because, he really didn't have any legit read on me. He just saw an opportunity to jump on to my wagon which is scummy.

I do. He called on me for trying to understand rules. How is that AI?

This isn't actually what happened.

This has happened. At least in my understanding

This post? What about it? @hikari

Just general thoughts.

[Hiraki]

I'm TRing Fitz too.

[Hiraki]

Also moonreading Dunn as town.

[Hiraki]

As in I'm pretty confident in it but I don't expect anyone to trust in it. Last post this page.

[Hiraki]

I'm TRing Fitz too.

why? Have you played with him before?

Yeah, I think this is more town him.

[Hiraki]

Last is either LuckyOtter or Hiraki I think

Dunn and Kokichi and AA9 obvTown.

We're agreeing on reads and you're calling me scum?

[Hiraki]

@Mod: When doing votecounts, do you mind putting how many to lynch? Also, Koki is not voting and voting at the same time.

Unvote, Vote: Wisdom

[Hiraki]

I haven't been feeling townWisdom here too hard either.

[Hiraki]

Why not?

Really hated that Arc conversation and haven't liked anything much after that.

Here's a couple things I still don't like after revisiting his ISO:

also, you cant expect me to really sort people when im limited to posting so little. I sort people through back to back 1v1s that are impossible to happen here. It's a given I'll give off a different vibe when I am forced to play differently.

I'm TRing Fitz too.

why? Have you played with him before?

In conjunction with:

i find he actually makes sense as town

because i didnt want to be voting hiraki anymore and you felt like a good vote

also i dont really think i can read you anymore

[Hiraki]

I don't feel like your questions and statements have any real purpose.

[Hiraki]

I feel like this is not the ruleset for Hiraki and Wisdom. They keep coming up against their quota.

I checked after you said this, only did this twice so far.

I don't need a reason to vote you

Come ON man, you know that this is piss poor at best.

How does voicing an opinion on fitz (that he makes sense as town and here he doesn't) not serve a purpose?

Didn't really understand this on first read but now I get it. Really not anything that you can do to convince anyone.

How does answering kokichi's question not serve a purpose?

Ok yeah but your answer doesn't really serve a good purpose. It feels fake too. You're looking for reads when you've already stated that you have them. It's weird and uncanny.

How does me explaining that i cant fucking play with 4 posts per page and that youre going to inevitably think im different not serve a purpose?

Nope, here we go again. The point you made was that you can't read people because

you

are posting so little. You can't just read what people are saying and I dunno....get READS off of them? It feels fake man. Not thought out and fake.

How does me trying to read arc not serve a purpose?

I never quoted anything much like this (maybe this refers to the Koki quote?) but this probably drives a nail into why I think your play is very fake right now. You don't need to post to read Arc. Arc has maybe 5 posts in this game and is one of the only people that you won't get a decent response out of. That wraps into your whole thing about not being able to post a lot.

I think Wisdom's frustration with the game's posting limits is legit, knowing him. And asking seemingly pointless questions is also a characteristic he has. That said I'd still put him as null, nothing he's said really sticks out.

I don't agree with this. Wisdom usually has good questions.

Kokichi is not good either, but not feeling as bad. The tunneling on Wisdom feels like a scum move. 168 really irked me. I also find questioning townreads on yourself to be a scumtell. I am only leaning scum here b/c the play feels different from scum Koki in Partition which has me wary.

I hate this.

A few posts before you?

Clear difference in tone between that question and 90% of Wisdom's.

<<< Though this isn't as succinct, yes. >>>

I appreciate it. It might not be but I think false hammers can happen inorganically because of it. Especially on Day 1.

I'm starting to think pines scum mostly because of how much hes hammering in that wisdom is his townread

Not has hard of a lean here but somewhat agreement.

@Hiraki wrt 66...do you always "say something" when you sheep another player's vote?

Usually I acknowledge agreement, yeah.

(i.e. I was of same mindset Wisdom [and Hiraki] was when they voted AA9).

Fake news!

hmmm....not seeing where AA9 was being "extremely hypocritical" wrt Wisdom as Hiraki states here.

Wisdom says AA9 is scummy for saying something false. AA9 says that Wisdom is scummy for calling her out on doing something false which wasn't actually false.

If you look at it from a

very

objective standpoint, this is scummy. I don't think anyone will disagree with that. What I find more interesting is that since there was no dialogue that took place, I think it's a SvS argument. I think any regular townie would try to figure out what's going on here - something that neither party really did. AA9 almost immediately TRs Wisdom in the next post for recalling his views. The one exception I guess you could make is that it's AA9 after all.

VOTE: Eevee

I'm talking out of my ass here but I think there's probably still a larger Wisdom wagon at this point. Are they weighted the same or nah?

I can't read Mom.

[Hiraki]

1) That's not what you said. You didn't say Wisdom had bad tone, you said he was posting bad questions

Nope! Let's try again!

I don't feel like your questions and statements have any real purpose.

This is vastly different from saying "posting bad questions." One defines that the questions in themselves are just bad while the other one says that they don't serve any purpose.

His question wanted a re-emphasis of Wisdom's views. I don't see how that doesn't serve any purpose of either a) Doubling down on Koki to explain his read on Wisdom or b) Asking someone that he thinks is town about something that he should look into.

2) I don't know what you're talkng about, he asks a random question that is basically answered in the thread and then moves on to something else

I mean sure, he could doubledown on Koki - oh wait what's this?

It’s the post 150 that makes me feel inclined to think the latter, but I need to reread Wisdom in isolation, which will have to happen later.

Ah, so it's B.

VOTE: Hiraki

Lets get this one first then!!!

Continue to be ignored by most of the gamestate until you post something useful.

[Hiraki]

I'm talking out of my ass here but I think there's probably still a larger Wisdom wagon at this point. Are they weighted the same or nah?

Close. Wagon make up has Eevee my preference

Think I'll take your word here but I'll have to see on a VC. Maybe I am missing something.

Hiraki are you suggesting to ignore arc in that post? At the end there

Not exactly. Just saying that Arc hasn't said anything useful which is why no one but me and Wisdom care about her.

I think there is scum within {Fuzzy, Fitz, Math, Kokichi, Hiraki}.

When you do a group this large it looks like you're just lining up lynches

Disagree.

Why are you always scum, Kokichi?

Wrong!

[Hiraki]

Are you sure no one's dead? Consider me disappointed

[Hiraki]

What a downer.

[Hiraki]

None of my reads have changed.

vote to implement deadline

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, you still haven't offered a read on Fuzzy, though.

That wagon comp is terrible

[Hiraki]

I'm believing in the system here.

Unvote, vote: Eeveelution

[Hiraki]

Actually, I can feel pretty good with my vote here after one read of Eevee's ISO LOL

[Hiraki]

I don’t believe I am as I have presented evidence to the contrary. But the lengths Wisdom goes to defend someone without reads and attack someone with reads is alignment indicative.

Ding ding ding

[Hiraki]

I don't think I ever want to play with Momrangal ever again

[Hiraki]

Eevee and A9 aren't getting any value from their 1 vote wagons.

That's a little hypocritical now, no?

[Hiraki]

Or actually

Mod: havingfitz is voting twice

[Hiraki]

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

[Hiraki]

Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.

You think everything i said was wrong?

That is what I'm saying, yes.

Koki, can you try to sell me on Fuzzy? I don't think you will but I'd appreciate some effort. We're usually vibing and the beginning of this game I think we were, we're just not doing it now.

[Hiraki]

Yeah, I think that's much more of a stretch than literally all of Eevee's posts being pretty dodgy and just putting stuff out there. For example:

If i voted for someone it would probably be havingfitz cause his only post is a rvs with nothing really about it

Is a terrible reason considering that:

Man why does this thread already have three pages game just started! :@


Mmmm

VOTE: wisdom

And

Maybe now and then.

Let's play! While following rules. I need learn a way to read you since this setting will cause a drastic change to your play.

I don't like. Your push on AA. She is and always had been someone easy to mislynch but I'm not sure of pines comment. It certainly isn't SvS

Were his only posts at the time. As well as the fact that there is nothing scummy to what havingfitz said. I ignored most of Eevee's early posting because I had bigger fish to fry but apparently those will be for later days. Eevee's posting has been dodgy at absolute best and contradictory at worst. I'm procrastinating right now so you best know I'm gonna put my best foot forward.

Eevee emulates Wisdomscum here where he asks a lot of questions and then never follows up on them. For example:

Hiraki did you ever say why arc v wisdom might be S v S?

Hiraki did you ever say why arc v wisdom might be S v S?

Mostly because I'm SRing both of them. SvS is a stretch due to the way Arc handled it but plausible.

Which never got followed up on. It seems pretty weird to ask this question if it has no affect on Eevee's reads.

Here are few of the same scenarios:

Kokichi so you're deadset on wisdom?

Mathblade whats pines scummeta than?

This one is the most fruitful one of these questions because two posts later:

VOTE: Pine i honestly believe this is more than likely scum.

I have substantial doubts (even if a scumlean on Pine atm) that Eevee read anything about Pine here. There's no reason for the question to be asked if you're not going to use its information.

Furthermore, Eevee asks this:

Am i the only one that thinks pine is scum ?

Which gets even WORSE when combined with this quote:

You never know when a single vote can spread into a full hammer. I have it on who i think is scummiest. Just cause I'm off the main lynches doesn't mean its a valueless lynch

1) You've already admitted that your wagon is dead with the first vote.
2) No, a signle vote can't spread into a full hammer. 1 vote isn't 7.
3) Yes, it does mean you're on a valueless lynch because you're not getting a lynch on Pine today. Just facts. Do you need me to quote you where you admit that other people might find Pine not OK?

Upon an ISO Eevee looks a lot worse then I previously thought. A ton of fluff and waffling.

I'm sorry I didn't pay attention to this before.

Some other things I want to bring to light:

Deal. I don't town read him either

VOTE: HavingFitz

1) Look at this buddy motion.
2)

I played with Fitz in a game where he was a town and later turned into scum. He is an extremely competitive player. Unlike me, he is not very transparent. He usually has good logic in his post regardless of his alignment. What concerns me about him that i didn't feel him as persuasive he gets when he is town but this little too early to judge him on this. I got a future-leaning scum read on him.

Arc made up his mind on Fitz by post 261. Anyone on this wagon is now liable knowing that there is a literal scumclaim by Arc that she already had a scumread on fitz before he flips.

[Hiraki]

second, I am not Fitz.

Also what do my posts have to do with what Fitz had posted and evees reasoning to wanting to vote him?

Maybe you should read the post again before thinking that I'm accusing you of doing anything.

[Hiraki]

"X's posting has been dodgy at best and contradictory at worst" is pretty much exactly what I've been trying to say about Fuzzy. I don't see why you won't see that.

Fuzzy hasn't been doing that. There is a clear difference between Fuzzy's play today (which is 100% self-aware) versus Eevee's game (which is 0% selfaware).

[Hiraki]

And no I am not townreading Fuzzy. I just don't see the strong scum read some have on him. But I do see reason enough to lynch him.

Look this isn't bad but you

know

you feel something wrong with this.

[Hiraki]

Pine - 2 (EeveeLution Army, Dunnstral)
Dunnstral - 1 (Pine)

These wagons aren't happening today. Please move your vote or lose your credibility.

[Hiraki]

Are you forcing me here hiraki?

What does this mean? Lol

[Hiraki]

Hiraki.. If eeve flips town, who is scum?

You and Wisdom

[Hiraki]

your hunting is beyond lazy to inexistent

What a good thing to say to a scumread

[Hiraki]

Who gives me their vote tomorrow when this flips green? Just need one.

[Hiraki]

If you guys decide to lynch him, this is a scum win

This lynch is fucking stupid either way and the fact that more than 1 person thinks Fuzzy is scum sucks

None of you took up my deal because none of you are that sure in this lynch

[Hiraki]

I missed it

unvote, vote: fitz

[Hiraki]

Actually someone took me up on my bet and this game is going nowhere so yeah I'm gonna go here

Deadline is in 2 days and my SR isn't getting lynched today

[Hiraki]

I don't think he's actually cop, his claim and post contradicted itself.

Koki I know this is you being you here and not you being scum. I need you to read at least one other game from him, doesn't even matter what the alignment is, and see that this posting is normal for him. If you want to take a step further (which you will), then you'll see scum Fuzzy posts like THIS:

viewtopic.php?t=71640&f=53&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Fuzzyscum is calculated and knows what he's doing. You can even see the dynamic from this from any town game he's in.

viewtopic.php?t=73244&f=23&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Desp I did not vote Carcalily after she claimed cop and wanted to see if she was lying before lynching a claimed cop. Secondly why shouldn't we believe that there was scrum or maybe two on the Lilly vote. thirdly hating to wait for flips is neither a town or scrum tell. your reasoning is terrible .

For some reason I was thinking that Boon was suppose to get the tapes. I know there was a list. Don't remember what post it was on.

Boon flip proves there is a neighborhood. There no reason not to believe that there is an IC in the game.The only question is if both neighbors are town or if there is scrum in the hood. For now neighbor should not claim .

on a side note I am on tape 3 side A. The show is a bit off putting . Not sure if I like it or not. Also I don't think Hannah is a very reliable voice. Maybe I am wrong ....

Not calculated and genuine.

I admit that I have mostly just floated along this game and have not done much except maybe threw in a few mediocre posts at best. No way is this my best.

Okay so Math thinking is that I am scum and that my scum partners are pushing for my lynch as they did in the Three game. I kinda get why he is being paranoid here since I burnt him badly as scum. I think that he is ignoring the possibility I am town and I am am just getting run up by scum ie I am playing as lynchbait this game. Not asking you to town read me Math but just consider that I might be town here/ Basically he being paranoid as anything. Honestly this kinda makes me think Math is town here, Maybe he over estimating my scum game, Not sure. I thinking Math is town.

I think Pine is playing layed back game. Its kinda wierd that he think Math is scum when Math is the one who is really pushing me as scum.

I dont get Wisdom reads...... It just seems like he scum reading people . I am confused his votes on Fritz and me. Kinda feel like he just going with the crowd

Otto..... I just dont feel confident in voting for a players atm.......

( would be funny if Math is scum this game and I get burnt .....after the Ending in Three game it would be a fair turn around)

Not calculated and genuine.

viewtopic.php?p=9187754#p9187754 (can't quote due to locked thread)

Calculated and NOT genuine.

viewtopic.php?p=9197020#p9197020

Even WORSE.

[Hiraki]

@kokichi who is scum to you besides fuzzy?

I can see Hikari flipping scum, i guess. What about you?

BTW this is why I have super faith in Koki being town. Don't think scumKoki makes this move.

[Hiraki]

We also did that before we realized that we would need 2 replacements but OK. Didn't think you'd need to worry about players flaking out to force a deadline vote.

[Hiraki]

I feel like the overall problem with reads in this game is the assumption of inability to make mistakes this game.

Vote: Eevee

[Hiraki]

Why Eevee in the town pile? Even if you're reading current posts, there's nothing TRable there.

[Hiraki]

MoI, the most nitpickiest person in the world, is saying that Eevee is town because her approach to the game feels like town.

No one else?

[Hiraki]

And no don't try to refute that with that Pine stuff at the end because I also called him scum. A bad vote doesn't become better because it's random and doesn't help anyone.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, just to be clear, are you suggesting a Magna+Eevee team? Who do you see as a possible third?

No, not yet at least. SirCakez was one of my good TRs. I don't think it's fair to say that MoI incriminates the slot as much as that I don't have confidence in MoI's reads. His read on me is never explained and I'd love to go at it, even though I know it'll be annoying.

MoI definitely replaced out because of me btw. He's had a hard-on against me lately. It sits inline with the above thoughts.

[Hiraki]

I'd like to reflect more but my theory on why Mom was killed was that she didn't really say anything that anyone paid attention to. Neither TR'd or SR'd by many. I know I didn't really care what she said.

[Hiraki]

I never asked for a replacement? Maybe it's a mistake by Mastina? Unless i'm being forced replaced for some reason I'm not aware of? I guess I'll just stop posting until I hear back from Mastina? And don't count this post and the last against the posting restriction if it's an error please.

This is awkward and weird.

[Hiraki]

@Mod: Can we get a votecount?

[Hiraki]

See I like this posting from you but I hated the early posting which just seemed very opportunistic if not just going with the flow. I don't think scum are in the fray of the highest amount of votes right now due to the players. Dunn is the only one I could see but not really agree with from an overall stance position (for some of the reasons you posted).

[Hiraki]

You remind me a lot of your sister, actually. In Open 680 (pre-reroll mod error edition) in particular, she tunneled me so hard and with such unshakeable certainty and on such nonsensical evidence that I was convinced she had to be making it up and ended up tunneling her just as hard right back. We were both town. My memory of that is the only thing keeping me open to the possibility you're town, because I know from experience that people really can make cases exactly this bad in earnest.

This is how I feel. Probably could've said it better like this too. It REEKS of this which is why I really don't care about these current stupid arguments and would really love to move past this garbage.

[Hiraki]

Agreed, but is it alignment-indicative?

No, I was honestly hoping for a mod response. I know, dumb move.

I'd rather put more spotlight on Eevee. Everyone who's said there's nothing there has given halfassed answers that aren't even good for being garbage.

[Hiraki]

Evee is in the null pile. Don’t know what to make of them yet.

Mathblade whats pines scummeta than?

Go look at Alisae’s recently completed game.

That would explain it better than I ever could.

In the words of a Supreme Justice bastardized “I cant describe Pine’s scum play, but I know it when I see it.” And this ain’t it.

And I don’t get the Evee read either Kokichi?

Shall we block? <3

This continues for awhile for Eevee town. Here are the posts in between:

Kokichi so you're deadset on wisdom?

I'm starting to think pines scum mostly because of how much hes hammering in that wisdom is his townread

Mathblade whats pines scummeta than?

So what changed that got you your read to change from null to town? Because there's nothing here that could even substantiate that.

Bonus! Even AFTER this, Eevee then VOTES Pine

VOTE: Pine i honestly believe this is more than likely scum.

There is NO reason at this point that you should actually be TRing Eevee and not be nullreading. Math is NOT the only player to pull this shit. If you want me to even look at Math, you're going to need Eevee to flip red first. Something I'm already pretty confident in.

[Hiraki]

What math read? The one where I call him town and you acknowledged that I'm calling him town and the point of my post is that everyone is letting eevee slide rather than calling any associations between players that haven't flipped, something that I've said on multiple occasions (and probably in this game) that it's just not a good tactic to use?

But nope, scumWisdom doesn't actually read posts for their substance and what they actually mean. It's just quick hits and dodges. Never the long game. Feel free to meta that

@all

while I wait for the next page.

[Hiraki]

Yes there is. It’s in 221/241 Army takes strong stances on things and broke us out of RVS. It’s one of army’s better post sequences. Calling it nothing doesn’t mitigate that fact and I see 0 reasoning from anyone on the army votes

Flat out false. We were definitely out of RVS by then and those aren't stances. The first is a question to Koki about his read. Then the next is a post that explains his stance, which you then said that it was wrong. Are you saying that proclaiming a stance, that is definitively wrong in your opinion, is townie? That doesn't make any sense to me.

Could lynch Eevee for lack of a reason not to, but I haven't seen a reason to explicitly scumread them. In particular it doesn't seem like a better lynch than ArcAngel. Am I missing something?

Eevee has random people defending for bad reasons. Only Wisdom will defend Angel.

Math/hiraki is a given
Im reconsidering umlaut given math's push there but bus isnt that unlikely

I like the Wisdom that actually plays the game and doesn't just shove shit in people's faces. You know, the one that actually responds to criticism.

[Hiraki]

lol
Previous post you called me scum, now you are basically telling me to not be bad (town)

youre so scum

I have multiple examples from multiple games of multiple alignments showing the same sort of rhetoric. I don't say it because I'm telling you that you're bad. If I wanted to say that, I'd say you were bad. I'm calling you annoying and irritable to play with this game overall. I don't think saying "actually plays the game" is saying you're playing bad at all. It's just saying that you're not playing the game, being obtrusive, and annoying.

[Hiraki]

This game is just a bastion for "Hey, this person is scum. Vote: X" which is the worst kind of game.

It's not even that people SR me. It's that no one cares why people are scumreading others. It's boring and dumb. None of you are actually this good at gambling. I guarantee it.

[Hiraki]

What the fuck is this?

Hold on! I can answer!

Blatant prodge. I really ought to have been V/LA this week, training was even busier than expected.

/blatant prodge

I'll catch up in a bit

And then!

Of the people I don't have TRs on, I like Hiraki the most for scum.

Reeeeally suspicious of the Math wagon tbh.

whats up

ill read like the last 10 pages but i dont have the capacity for more

no ill just iso people

who should i do

You already broke a rule

Don't post 3 times in a row, don't post more than 4 times in a page

what where does it say that

oh shit i see it ill stop

It's just bullshit! Woo!

@Hiraki What are your current feelings on ArcAngel9? You were voting her early Day 1 and indicated that you thought the kerfuffle between her and Wisdom might be SvS (if only because you scumread them both for it). You've continued to reference your Wisdom scumread but haven't really brought up your Arc read in a while, where is it now and why?

1) I don't get the point of this question.

2) I'm expecting a replacement at this point.

3) Scum. Nothing changed in her play.

[Hiraki]

Yeeeeah, no. I may be lowkey here, but I'm not so careless as to just plain make shit up.

LITERALLY the exact problem that I just complained about. In one post, Pine says:

1) He has a read on me that he has not gone into but is scummy.
2) That read is really obvious but he hasn't gone into it because...?
3) Practically ignores all posting.

this is annoying. Regardless of alignment, this is annoying. I would, and definitely have, made this same statement as scum.

No one wants to pick your brain, no one thinks you're a god among men for doing this. It is just downright annoying.

I'm mobile posting so I'm gonna address Umlaut here without quotes.

1. They honestly haven't because I don't think this game matured past Day 1. The deadline vote was on someone that I don't think gave a lot of reads and was dumb anyway. I don't think Angel is worth trying to argue right now because I don't think anyone wants to touch that. All of that being said, there are multiple shady relationships that randomly appear throughout the game. Eevee and Wisdom are two of them. I can go more into this using a keyboard.

[Hiraki]

Umlaut, you're doing a lot of the work I wanted to do...so thanks.

Currently it seems like once I flip green you can just say "oops, guess all my reads on everyone useless now" and be excused for throwing them all away and starting over, which is one of my own favorite scum tactics to avoid being held to anything long-term. I want to see some analysis from you not based on something I know is false.

I don't agree with this. The fact that Math answered that way just proves he's being irrational this game overall (which is, annoying).

no she isnt
Have you even played with her before?

not interested. Arc was pretty town in the beginning and she caught hiraki before i did.

Choose one.

I also don't think Wisdom is worth talking to anymore for these reasons. Unlike Math, Wisdom is also playing dumb but not as consistently.

@everyone What does a typical Friday schedule look like for you, in terms of work, school, other obligations? What time do you leave home in the morning, what time do you get back? And have there been any notable exceptions to that schedule in the past month or so?

Variable. What is the point of this question?

[Hiraki]

0% on Lucky. I see exactly what you see in him. It's not scum though. I'd be willing to do a Pine lynch as a nice jesture though I really don't think that has a significant chance of flipping scum. Just a nice chance.

I also think 903 is a little misleading. More than half of the people on there are rejecting the claim yet he's been lynched. That's not very truthful on a face value without looking into it.

[Hiraki]

One more statement on the cop claim reactions. Apparently not a single person moved off the wagon, so sanity is too much to ask, but we can certainly distinguish between players by what they actually wanted out of the day.

Of the players who rejected Fuzzy's claim:

• MathBlade actively engaged people, tried to convince them, and made every effort to talk things through.
  
• Dunnstral seemed unsure, and made some effort to talk things through.
  
• Kokichi Oma wanted to hold out for a Fitz replacement, so that we were all here to talk things through.
  
• Pine was happy to just let things proceed, and didn't really seem too worried one way or the other about talking things through.
  
• LuckyOtter
  called for an immediate hammer
  before anyone else could talk anything through.

This is the difference between playing to catch scum and playing to mislynch.


Otter and Pine are both scum. On an ISO skim I have no problem seeing them as scum together. Third scum is probably (though not definitely) off the d1 wagon, implying one of {ArcAngel, Eevee, Hiraki} (or I guess me), and of those I think ArcAngel is the best bet.

---

Dear Otter-the-person,

Sorry about dropping this anvil on you just as you go V/LA. I honestly thought you wouldn't be until tomorrow at the earliest.

Furthermore this is largest indicative of some kind of communication between Otter and Umlaut.

How would you suspect/know Otter would be going on VLA and not be til tomorrow?

Actually Trinity/Otter/Umlaut with Wisdom scum beard ain’t bad

Take off the goddamn tinfoil hat this game please. It's still annoying and this is about the easiest thing to debunk if you took two seconds to actually investigate your own claim.

My summer Fridays are completely unpredictable, and I'm about to go V/LA for a research trip this weekend. I'll try to get some rereading done before I go and post something substantive, but I honestly don't think my vote is going to move. I feel like I need math to flip before I can get a better read of others.

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki I did look before then. If my tinfoil as it were is wrong show me where it is since it took you two seconds.

Friday is not considered part of the weekend.

[Hiraki]

I think you're confused on this... more than half the people rejected Fuzzy's cop claim, meaning they said Fuzzy wasn't really a cop, meaning they still wanted to lynch him, so he got lynched. Makes sense to me.

Yeah, you're right. My bad.

What does this mean? If you don't see scum in Lucky, you don't see in him what I see in him. Explain how town!Otter plays the way you agree with me that he's played.

By just playing this way? I just think most of your conclusions say he's scum without actually getting there. Here's an example:

He was already calling himself natural lynchbait before (293) and continued to call himself natural lynchbait after (394, 401):

This doesn't mean anything and you eventually get to:

So the entire basis for a contradiction hinges on whether this is a reasonable interpretation of "playing as lynchbait." If so, Fuzzy's explanation is sound; if not, it's scum backpedaling.

Alrighty, that's a stretch.

We're at the point where saying "I play like lynchbait" means "I play like lynchbait (please excuse my scummy play)" but you never really hit where the scummy play part is.

The only thing convincing here is:

LuckyOtter called for an immediate hammer before anyone else could talk anything through.

Which I then dug into because this without quotes is very misleading.

I don't see any quotes that say that. Here is the only post I can find that even references that:

Koki, you ready to hammer or waiting for something?

Which isn't a bad post considering Koki's last two posts are:

vote Fuzzy

im the town cop but whatever, town is bound and determine to lynch me....at this point i kinda dont care

Why would you vote yourself as cop? What the hell, that's gamethrow.

Yeah the actions dont lineup. No way he self votes as cop. That literally makes no sense.

If he didn't believe the cop claim, why would he care what others thought about it?

Like I said, I get where you're coming from but I don't see the links that correlate it toward being scum.

[Hiraki]

You're right - I misread. But then I read more and more of the situation and found myself agreeing with my previous sentiments (which is probably why I just misread the quote and kind of tagged along with it because most of my post makes sense without that quote either way)

The reason why you're currently voting Otter is because you do not think he gave a lot of time for people to interact with the claim. This is not really coherent with someone who didn't believe the claim and didn't really buy his play. I know that's how Fuzzy plays but I'm not gonna play stupid here and say that he was a clear townie. My reads always carry a bit of meta, luck, and whole understanding of the player. Otter's doesn't. That doesn't make him scum, especially in that "whole understanding" context (there might be a better word for this but I'm not very grounded on the word meta for it - I think the two are distinctly different) but does (and did!) make him wrong.

The ironic thing here is that I've always been very vigilant on how Eevee and Otter are playing almost identical games here - different opinions, sure, but not very different in style and overall thought process (or at least how the thought comes about). The problem is the execution which is something I've been trying to nail down on getting people to look at but I think I've been very unsuccessful every time. Otter uses his head, forms an opinion, and sticks with it. Eevee asks a question, throws the question away and brings up other garbage on why he's voting. It's not consistent, it's not at all townie, and there's no reason why these excuses have gotten this far tbh.

[Hiraki]

Yeeeeah, no. I may be lowkey here, but I'm not so careless as to just plain make shit up.

LITERALLY the exact problem that I just complained about. In one post, Pine says:

1) He has a read on me that he has not gone into but is scummy.
2) That read is really obvious but he hasn't gone into it because...?
3) Practically ignores all posting.

this is annoying. Regardless of alignment, this is annoying. I would, and definitely have, made this same statement as scum.

No one wants to pick your brain, no one thinks you're a god among men for doing this. It is just downright annoying.

I'm mobile posting so I'm gonna address Umlaut here without quotes.

1. They honestly haven't because I don't think this game matured past Day 1. The deadline vote was on someone that I don't think gave a lot of reads and was dumb anyway. I don't think Angel is worth trying to argue right now because I don't think anyone wants to touch that. All of that being said, there are multiple shady relationships that randomly appear throughout the game. Eevee and Wisdom are two of them. I can go more into this using a keyboard.

[Hiraki]

I hate this but Pine is literally refusing to play so I give up here. This game needs something to get it to move and this might as well be something.

Vote: Pine

[Hiraki]

Finally, the truth arises.

Vote: Eevee

[Hiraki]

I guess this means Pine's claim is worse than Eevee's and he's most likely scum. I can't quite get over the thought that the claim is maybe so much less fitting that the only reason for Pine to make it is if it's true. Also nearly-lynched Eevee trying to get him to disclose his number of shots looks ugly, town doesn't need that information to evaluate his claim.

Ding ding ding

If he's lying, why does he care? Eevee hasn't shown a big ego before.

Hiraki: Plausible. Dissuades d1 Pine votes based on "the wagon isn't happening" rather than read; states an unsubstantiated scumread d1 that he doesn't pursue; on d2 seems to push a scumread but then disbelieves the wagon will flip scum and continues to doubt even as he joins it (which he had already committed himself to doing earlier). Feels inconsistent on the slot.

Allow me to refute - I honestly don't know which way Pine will flip at the end of the day but I know this much:

1) He is just not into this game and had to resort to his claim to even be alive right now.
2) I don't think he's much use alive anyway right now and if I didn't have such a good mindset and clear vision of Eeveescum, I'd stay on and regret it later when he flips town/feel only a little good when he flips scum.
3) I am very inconsistent on the slot. I don't think I've been very "feel-y" about that, if you get my drift.

[Hiraki]

You aren't the bodyguard. Either you're a VT more interested in showing off how clever you are than winning the game, or you're scum straining for a reason to keep both Pine and Eevee alive.

Ding ding ding

[Hiraki]

Vote: Pine

[Hiraki]

I'm with Lucky here. Still have no regrets against Eevee. If you don't defend yourself and just keep making excuses, I'm not gonna stop.

[Hiraki]

Dunn/Jingle/Trinity tbh. There are a few things that can change that tonight but I'll let you know tomorrow if any of those occur.

I re-read Dunn's ISO and I don't like some of his phrasings. I don't think this ever ends in a TL though.

[Hiraki]

I don't buddy period.

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

They read bad in post-sight. I might've called them good before but there's something I didn't really get about them. That had a lot to do with how Lucky had Eevee and Pine pinned as scum together. I never ever got that feeling and we agreed on reads there. I think Wisdom even called me out on this and I just said I dunno.

Pine you need to get on eevee

When, at the same time:

2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

Seems like a scum on scum interaction to me - eevee with pine

I get the feeling that Fuzzy is town, also I don't like seeing pine and sircakez on there

1) cause honestly i dont see why mom got killed at all

Why does that mean it wasn't pine specifically?

Weird that you said this but now can't back it up or even explain your thought process here

It's only after they CC that this theory (obviously) drops but it's weird in hindsight. There's really no reason to push it this hard. Which is something to note when the CC does happen -

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

I don't get where this shift comes from.

[Hiraki]

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

They read bad in post-sight. I might've called them good before but there's something I didn't really get about them. That had a lot to do with how Lucky had Eevee and Pine pinned as scum together. I never ever got that feeling and we agreed on reads there. I think Wisdom even called me out on this and I just said I dunno.

Pine you need to get on eevee

When, at the same time:

2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

Seems like a scum on scum interaction to me - eevee with pine

I get the feeling that Fuzzy is town, also I don't like seeing pine and sircakez on there

1) cause honestly i dont see why mom got killed at all

Why does that mean it wasn't pine specifically?

Weird that you said this but now can't back it up or even explain your thought process here

It's only after they CC that this theory (obviously) drops but it's weird in hindsight. There's really no reason to push it this hard. Which is something to note when the CC does happen -

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

I don't get where this shift comes from.

This argument makes 0 sense with an encryptor in play

No, I thought about this too. Go on with that thought.

[Hiraki]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

[Hiraki]

Dunn, what are your reads?

VOTE: pine

Jingle and hiraki after

What do you all think? Does this sound like a plan?

Are you implying that you think this is the plan to follow or are you asking for direction here?

Like I said, that's the easiest answer. It aligns with both Umlaut's and Wisdom's thoughts. I have expressed my doubts about those two as scum, and about you and Dunn as town, but since I'm still here and both Umlaut and Wisdom are gone, I'm willing to assume that at least one of my reads here is off, possibly all of them.
--
I am not following either Math or Hiraki here.

So scum!Dunn is distancing from Pine and pushing for Eevee lynch saying both are scum. Dunn knows Pine is going to claim (via encryptor), which is going to allow him to go after Eevee, again. So he can comfortably vote Pine for a bit knowing he's going to get to go back to voting Eevee.
Or, town!Dunn legit believes both Pine and Eevee are scum, and does some digging into that line of thought. After the claims, he has to decide which is scum and chooses Eevee, presumably because Eevee was the stronger scumread from the beginning (which he just said, and reading his ISO checks out)

Either scenario seems plausible to me and I don't see how the encryptor in play changes things.

With an encryptor in play scum has zero reason to tell a buddy
“Partner you need to do <x>” they say it in the daychat.

Hiraki’s argument that scum!Dunnstral would openly say his buddy needs to change votes in the game thread is silly

Pine didn't care even a little about this game. You think he really checked a PT over the thread?

Except by all measures he did.
He is one of the highest in post count
He fake claimed to lure out the doc
And continued posting even after being outed the next day.

These are all indications of caring.
If he was a lurker I would agree with you.

What evidence do you have that he didn’t care?

1) Highest post count doesn't mean anything? Half of his posts are one-liners and prod dodges.

2) Correct, as a goon who didn't care and saw the opportunity. This isn't really a huge chess move.

3) Are you serious? He continued posting? Are you going to act like any of his posts were serious?

4) He prod dodged half of the game. I even called him out several times during the game for not caring about the game, which he responded to none of them.

[Hiraki]

im waiting for trinity

[Hiraki]

Hammer, i'm pretty sure this flips town now anyway lol

Just don't think it ends the game anymore

I'm still waiting

[Hiraki]

Yeah, late posting me yesterday was a little off but not really. Dunn/Trinity ends this game with the win.

[Hiraki]

Well, I'm not touching Lycanfire.

[Hiraki]

Do you think I play bad scum now?

[Hiraki]

Well, I'm not touching Lycanfire.

Why not?

i think he's the most town here?

[Hiraki]

math has shown this game that he doesn't care about people trying to change his mind so i'm most definitely not going to

Vote: Trinity

[Hiraki]

I mean, I declared my intentions pretty early on but w/e, yeah, call it that

[Hiraki]

I'm conflicted on Math because I really feel that Math vs Wisdom was TvT in retrospective but I've been incorrect on a lot of things this game.

[Hiraki]

I don't think you need to worry too much about one warning. Just be more careful next time.

[Hiraki]

And yes, that does mean I agree with Mastina's judgment there. You didn't use tags. That was the entire point of that discussion - if individual tags added to the word count. Instead, you opted to link and use quotations which were never clarified in anyway.

That being said, I don't get Math's reaction to it but I don't get Math's reaction to a lot of things this game.

[Hiraki]

All this talk is telling me that my Dunn read is spot on but it'll never end in a town win at this rate

[Hiraki]

Your points are literally "he would NEVER do that"
What should i refute them with then the things I have said??
Just because you're not reasonable to change this game doesn't mean I haven't tried

[Hiraki]

no thanks, would rather just lose than argue with a brick wall

[Hiraki]

the fact that my argument has been boiled down into "well, he's saying that he talked to him as if there was no day chat LOL" when my argument clearly goes over how Dunn favorably wanted Pine to live after being very negative toward Pine multiple times just doesn't give me any motivation to try with this anymore

[Hiraki]

Unvote, Vote: Dunn

[Hiraki]

I'm more positive here, your thoughts will never impact my vote unless I completely concur with them

[Hiraki]

Hmm. That's twice my phone decided not to post. Sorry. I'm here, just not getting my posts in for some reason.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, can you explain why you’re voting Dunn? Sorry if I’ve missed it above, I’m posting on an ipad so it’s tricky quoting or viewing posts.

@Hiraki, K. Yesterday you said you didn't like some of Dunn's phrasings. Can you clarify that with examples?

They read bad in post-sight. I might've called them good before but there's something I didn't really get about them. That had a lot to do with how Lucky had Eevee and Pine pinned as scum together. I never ever got that feeling and we agreed on reads there. I think Wisdom even called me out on this and I just said I dunno.

Pine you need to get on eevee

When, at the same time:

2. Earlier in the game I'd disagree with this, but given the state of the game now, this is correct. Just sticking a single vote on someone when there are 2 or 3 other wagons going, the proponents of which aren't budging very much, is not going to go anywhere and Eevee must know this.
If Eevee actually proposed any kind of case for pushing Pine, I'd feel better about it.

Seems like a scum on scum interaction to me - eevee with pine

I get the feeling that Fuzzy is town, also I don't like seeing pine and sircakez on there

1) cause honestly i dont see why mom got killed at all

Why does that mean it wasn't pine specifically?

Weird that you said this but now can't back it up or even explain your thought process here

It's only after they CC that this theory (obviously) drops but it's weird in hindsight. There's really no reason to push it this hard. Which is something to note when the CC does happen -

I'm the doctor. Back off

Now stop with the counter wagons and get on eevee

I don't get where this shift comes from.

[Hiraki]

If you buy that, lynch me today and then get him tomorrow

[Hiraki]

why is anyone voting for a deadline right now?

[Hiraki]

Not me btw but thank god my soul is released

Good fucking luck town