Open 728: Sharing is Caring (GAME OVER)

[BlackStar]

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

[BlackStar]

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

why zoronos?

His posts are too long

[BlackStar]

His posts are too long

We're not in RVS anymore...

It feels like he's trying too hard even though nothing has happened

[BlackStar]

It just feels artificial to me for some reason

[BlackStar]

'kay

[BlackStar]

BlackStar - let’s chat. Is there an opinion of mine you disagree with or that is confusing which I can clarify for you?

No, you brought up some good points. You just give off a weird vibe. It's like someone thought about the ideal way for a town member to post and then designed a program that wrote posts like that for them. Just doesn't feel right

[BlackStar]

I'm town reading hewhoswims. His reads make a lot of sense and seem genuine

[BlackStar]

@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar

Can you explain the reasoning for this vote?

[BlackStar]

Wow, I didn't expect the game to start today

VOTE: zoronos

Posts like this always ping me too.
They aren't even that "late", so the whole "wow-thing" feels off.

I'm obviously nitpicking as we don't have much yet, but I'm bored so..

I'm used to showing up as soon as the game starts, so it felt late to me.

...aaaand Zoro is different here too. (I've now read two games from them)

What's different about him?

[BlackStar]

What's different about him?

The way they post.

Can you elaborate?

[BlackStar]

It wasn't a dumb question. You just decided to give a dumb answer. All you had to say was that you didn't want to explain it yet

[BlackStar]

It was only 10% silly

[BlackStar]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

[BlackStar]

The Worst, do you have any reads right now?

@HWS I'm vibing your reads. I actually like NSG's case for town, just not sure she's got her guy yet.

VOTE: Blackstar

Far be it for me to interject, but uhhh that seems a bit of a redundant question in light of 123?
Or are you asking if the_worst's prior reads have lapsed / changed since that post was made?

I meant any other reads

[BlackStar]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

[BlackStar]

If you feel like a case can be made for ofrhz, why haven't you voted for them yet, Zoro?

[BlackStar]

Just kidding

VOTE: BlackStar

Why?

[BlackStar]

He said that he felt ofrhz's question was loaded and that he felt like his posts deserved attention. It seemed to me that he was at least a little suspicious of ofrhz and if he is then I don't know why he isn't voting for anyone. And 197 is an ATE designed to make us sympathize with him and not want to vote for him. That's NAI to me because I do that all the time as both town and scum

[BlackStar]

I guess I kind of just skimmed everything to get caught up

[BlackStar]

How do you read ofrhz? (@BlackStar)

I don't like the fact that he popped up as soon as we mentioned him or the fact that he hasn't tried to contribute anything so far, so I guess that makes him a scum lean. But if he's scum then it would make it much less likely that Zoro is scum. So I'm interested to see more of his posts

[BlackStar]

I know I've played multiple games with him but I can't remember his meta because I haven't played in so long.

[BlackStar]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

Could you go into these a little bit more

Their posts felt genuine to me. Hitalt and pint seem like they're really trying to figure things out. I'd add NSG and Ruru to that list too. After looking through Something smrt's iso again I'd drop them down to null now

[BlackStar]

@ofhrz who do you think is town and why?

[BlackStar]

Mmmm I don't think that's a good idea, you give Mafia information on what PRs they should use... If we decide Vig shouldn't shoot, then the Mafia Doctor won't use his target either

@Zoronos I thought you were being a tryhard, but I think we have diametrically opposed early playstyles and that's it. I fluff a lot early game and when I saw you were trying to get out of RVS so early pinged me a lot, but you've been consistent so that must be a playstyle preference that I don't share.

My townreads are better than my scumreads, especially this early. I tend to exaggerate my scumreads, like really dramatic and tinfoily scumreads, but my townreads are good. ruru and NSG are town, I'm trying to sort the rest of the players I've played with before (including the two gals, Mathdino, HWS, ofrhz, the worst and jjh. Maybe HitAlt? I don't know who he is)

I am definitely reducing the case to that, and on purpose. I feel it's the strongest point of the case. But let's go into more detail -
In depth Explanation:

Spoiler: thoughts

Her case had basically four points spread between 104 and 105

I had trouble following / agreeing with her 105. She calls out JJH's 41 (a vote on Pintu) for being 'essentially RVS', but she herself had voted Pintu in 37. I specifically commented on her vote in 44 with my impression / guess at why she might be voting him. So, if her vote in 37 is a legit strike, why is 41 essentially RVS? Is it the inclusion of the phrase 'Mr Blue Sky' when she had naked voted?
Alternatively, she is purposefully RVS'ing at that stage, and assumes JJH is as well, and the problem isn't the RVS vote itself, but the hypocrisy as contrasted to JJH's prior comments about getting out of RVS.

NSG had notes that she had trouble following JJH's progression when he voted me in 17 -> unvoted me in 24. I personally had no trouble understanding JJH's line of thinking. I didn't really explain my question until after his initial answer, so I can see a progression of 'That's a dumb question, vote' to 'Ooohhhh that's not a dumb question unvote'. He said as much in 21. If I put myself in JJH's shoes, it doesn't take me a huge struggle to figure out why he might react as he did in that sequence if he believes we 'should' still be in RVS.

Her last point, that she didn't get why JJH brought up that NSG was more interested in him than in the wagon on her does give me some pause, but I don't know what to make of either side of it.
JJH said "Worth noting that NSG is more interested in me than her wagon?". Which doesn't seem like a question, but has a question mark in it. So I'm not really sure who it was directed to in the first place. So I can totally understand NSG's confusion about it, but I'm a little on the 'so what' side of things there. I mostly ignored the wagon on me, as ruru noted a couple pages ago, so I'm not super surprised that NSG ignored the wagon on her, nor am I super surprised that it got brought up (again, ruru brought up that I ignored the wagon on me). The only thing about it that perplexes me is the question mark.

So, in essence, I believe the 'JJH is buddying / white knighting Zoronos' is the best data point of the case, and one I was myself somewhat concerned about. HWS noted similar slightly later in the thread as well. Ergo, that's the part of the case I wanted to talk about.

If you'll indulge me, lets move on to that last point. Do you think there's anything incriminating on either side of JJH noting and / or asking about Maria's lack of interest in the wagon? What do you think - innocent notation / chin scratch + "hmmm..." noise into the thread, or a nefarious attempt to redirect attention off of himself?

I'm not sure if I answered your question here about the RVS inconsistency. Did what I wrote in the spoiler make clear my thoughts on that 'inconsistency' or do we need to talk about it some more?

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Well there's a phrase I usually use in my life that seems to be good to use now: not because's she's being hypocritical means that she's wrong. I get your point, but jjh was inconsistent at that point, and along with two other things that could be taken as scummy, NSG case makes sense, and makes sense coming from town, hense the townread coming from me.

Now about the last thing you said, I'll assume Maria is NSG? Something_Smart already said what I believe: an RVS wagon gives no info, neither from the people voting, nor from the voted. What do you think could be a conclusion about an RVS wagon? Like, saying NSG ignored RVS votes on her is like saying my case on Mathdino having short arms could be a good point.

Fuck I said Maria when I meant NSG and those are entirely different players. I have no idea why I wrote that. Previous game playerlist sitting in my head still I guess.

So, what part of JJH's posts were inconsistent? Do you think that both he and NSG were RVS voting, which leads to an inconsistency with his earlier statement on dislike of RVS? Help me see your understanding of the evidence.

This response is a bit short because I'm working on responding in greater depth to NSG's question to me above: Short version - I don't think it matters at all that NSG ignored the RVS votes. I think it's entirely NAI. That's why I didn't bother asking about it, I don't think there's value to be gleaned.

However, I want your interpretation of JJH's question about NSG's wagon. Do *you* think JJH was trying to redirect heat off himself with that question, or was innocently pondering a thread event? Because if the former, that's a good point of evidence in NSG's case on him. If the later, it's not.

Oh sorry, I think I misunderstood you the first time.

1. The inconsistency comes when you say you want to get out of RVS as soon as possible, but when a player comes and takes you out abruptly from RVS, try to go back to it with an RVS vote. Now, I won't lie, saying this out loud makes me think it's a silly way to look at that vote; jjh was basically greeting me 'cause I was late to the party.

2. Now about the misunderstanding: no I don't think jjh was trying to redirect heat off himself, 'cause I don't think there was heat on himself in the first place. What I find ironic is that, by saying that about NSG, NSG went full bananas on him but either way, about redirecting heat... I don't think that's a treat only scum has; town doesn't want to be the center of attention either. Town doesn't care that much maybe, but from my point of view, I try to analyze this things in a way like "is this relevant to my read on this player? If yes, why; if no, read something else". jjh's motivation is a no, first 'cause there's not enough evidence to think anything about that post, and second 'cause even if he was trying to derail attention, I wouldn't know how to read that.

Deez

[BlackStar]

ruru is probably town. I’ve played two games with her, one scum and one town, and in her scumgame, she was passive (in her gameplay), like I don’t think scum!ruru would vote me in big text like she just did. Her posts were also stiff in tone in contrast to her RVS entrance. It’s occurred to me that she could have fabricated her game entrance (a few other people were in the same Newbie 1859 game where ruru was scum, so it’d be extremely beneficial for scum!ruru to do this) but I don’t think it’s likely given the ad hoc nature of the content

NSG is town mainly for asking people why they think she’s town and the early case focusing on JJH, which I don’t think are things that don’t come from scum NSG.

I have a weak townread on HWS because 121, specifically paragraph 2 where he analyzed JJH’s vote

I think I believe you...

[BlackStar]

VOTE: the worst

[BlackStar]

VOTE: the worst

wat.
this is scum entering the wagon 100% of the time

VOTE: BlackStar

Was that vote supposed to be funny or were you just not aware that you were already voting for me?

[BlackStar]

rereading ISO that is scum entering the wagon 107% of the time.

Nah. You've been on my radar for a while and someone else felt the same way so it felt like a good time to vote for you

[BlackStar]

I wasn't totally sure who I was voting
Either way, dramatic effect makes it worth

Why did you ask that

Because scum seems more likely to me not to know who they're voting. Finding scum doesn't matter to them

[BlackStar]

Yeah, sure

[BlackStar]

Ofrhz: somewhere between null and scum. I don't trust him. He started overcompensating as soon as he was called out. It would've felt more natural if he came back, apologized for not posting much and then slowly eased his way into the game
Ruru: brings up good arguments and hasn't really given me any and vibes so far
Hitalt: I like his thought process. It feels town to me

Petit- zoronos is probably town

[BlackStar]

VOTE: ofrhz

Aggressive

Ruru is probably town guys

This felt like buddying to me

[BlackStar]

What did you think of ofrhz and ruru's interactions?

[BlackStar]

rereading ISO that is scum entering the wagon 107% of the time.

Also, why'd you say this?

[BlackStar]

VOTE: ofrhz

Aggressive

Ruru is probably town guys

This felt like buddying to me

Duh they're friends
keep going

Lol. It looks like scum buddying up to town. Something I do a lot as scum is try to buddy up to people who are very strongly scum reading me. This reminds me of that. Also I don't understand why being aggressive would make him town. It seems like a weird reason to town read someone

[BlackStar]

What did you think of ofrhz and ruru's interactions?

rereading ISO that is scum entering the wagon 107% of the time.

Also, why'd you say this?

HEY buddy I'm the duckling asking questions around here.
I'll answer when I'm satisfied you've answered me

Quid pro quo, bro

if I said there was something missing from your ISO which was pinging me what do you think it is

Detailed cases? Hard pushes? An over abundance of memes?

[BlackStar]

Lol. It looks like scum buddying up to town. Something I do a lot as scum is try to buddy up to people who are very strongly scum reading me. This reminds me of that. Also I don't understand why being aggressive would make him town. It seems like a weird reason to town read someone

If you think THAT'S a weird reason you're gonna LOVE me townreading ofrhz for that post.

Why do you townread him for that?

[BlackStar]

I wasn't sure how I felt about that post and went back and forth over it for like 10 minutes. I even looked through one of his scum games to see how he listed and compare it to this game. But I decided that my reasons for not trusting it were kind of stupid and decided to give him the benefit of the doubt. I wrote "I think" though and added dots on the end because I still wasn't 100% convinced it was genuine

[BlackStar]

I was definitely being opportunitistic. I saw a chance to get a wagon going on someone scummy and I jumped. By the way, answering your questions helped me to realize more stuff about ofrhz that I didn't think about before

[BlackStar]

okkkkk.....and yet you've reached the conclusion this is scum!ofrhz trying to pocket town!ruru?

Yeah

[BlackStar]

o wait I might have mixed up your tense
are you saying

first impression: scum buddying
reconsideration: maybe townie
final conclusion: scum buddying

Yeah, exactly

[BlackStar]

that's still got me a bit but at least it's something to think about
I literally thought you changed your mind 3 times in rapid succession this page


I'll come back to you--is there anything you still wanna know from me?
I'm pretty sure I've answered your question in a roundabout way but lmk

Is active lurking scummy in your opinion?

[BlackStar]

Why do you townread him for that?

Because they're not concerned in the slightest about being voted to the point of being flippant about it, and they are actually trying to turn it around into something positive.

It's an argument that probably wouldn't occur to most people as scum.

It felt like desperation to me. He wanted to act as if the vote didn't bother him and possibly change ruru's mind by acting as if he approved of the logic behind it.

[BlackStar]

that's still got me a bit but at least it's something to think about
I literally thought you changed your mind 3 times in rapid succession this page


I'll come back to you--is there anything you still wanna know from me?
I'm pretty sure I've answered your question in a roundabout way but lmk

Is active lurking scummy in your opinion?

it's definitely scummy for certain people.
if you wanna talk universal tells, I think there's ~ways~ town active lurks and ~ways~ scum active lurks.

Okay, so could you explain that more?

[BlackStar]

that's still got me a bit but at least it's something to think about
I literally thought you changed your mind 3 times in rapid succession this page


I'll come back to you--is there anything you still wanna know from me?
I'm pretty sure I've answered your question in a roundabout way but lmk

Is active lurking scummy in your opinion?

it's definitely scummy for certain people.
if you wanna talk universal tells, I think there's ~ways~ town active lurks and ~ways~ scum active lurks.

Okay, so could you explain that more?

probably, any particular context or in armchair terms?

Explain how your posts before your second vote on me were different from scum active lurking

[BlackStar]

Up until that point you mostly made joke posts or posts with no substance

[BlackStar]

What, did I invoke your wrath somehow? lol

[BlackStar]

sure, why not

[BlackStar]

I genuinely think you have me pinned for a mislynch and jumped on board out of sheer opportunism.

There would be easier targets in the game if I wanted mislynch.
But so it happens, I want to buss you D1.

Do you know what bussing means?

"welp i'm hitalt" just doesn't have the same ring to it.

What does this mean?

I'm pretty sure that's something RadiantCowbells says all the time to justify votes

pretty much I'll weigh in through the day if I have a thought on something. I try to create content by actually engaging players. this phase hasn't really been overly interesting for me.

for the most part I pretty much throw in off lines and jokes to stay engaged with the player list
buddying fo sho but i'm usually extremely bored if I don't have people I want to talk to in a game

Hmm...

[BlackStar]

ignore that first quote lol

[BlackStar]

Okay, BlackStar was not lying about not reading the thread

what makes you say this? i don't think the worst is so obviously town as to warrant this - in fact, i think blackstar is probably townier.

ruru is probably town. I’ve played two games with her, one scum and one town, and in her scumgame, she was passive (in her gameplay), like I don’t think scum!ruru would vote me in big text like she just did. Her posts were also stiff in tone in contrast to her RVS entrance. It’s occurred to me that she could have fabricated her game entrance (a few other people were in the same Newbie 1859 game where ruru was scum, so it’d be extremely beneficial for scum!ruru to do this) but I don’t think it’s likely given the ad hoc nature of the content

Also I don't understand why being aggressive would make him town. It seems like a weird reason to town read someone

He should have read my post considering he's the one who asked for my reads

I did read your post. I just didn't like how much your trust your meta read

VOTE: Blackstar

This is a gross vote

[BlackStar]

It felt like desperation to me. He wanted to act as if the vote didn't bother him and possibly change ruru's mind by acting as if he approved of the logic behind it.

What was desperate about it? Like what part of it seemed like I was acting versus actually not caring about the vote

"Ruru voted for me. She's probably town, guys!"
feels different from
"I can understand why Ruru scumreads me. If I was in their shoes I probably would too. I don't like the vote but I see where they're coming from. I think I town read Ruru."

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Blackstar

This is a gross vote

Can you explain this?
Rather, the adjective 'gross' is not what I'd expect. Scummy? Misinformed? Incongruous? Doesn't fit his other reads?

Gross= scummy as hell. I scum read him more than the worst at this point

VOTE: ohfrz

[BlackStar]

I feel like jjh should be townier by now as town

I'm hesitant to waste time there if he's just gonna town it up later but I'm pretty concerned

Why are you worrying about what he might do in the future? If you're not sure about him then why not ask him stuff to try and sort him?

[BlackStar]

Ruru what's your read on Math right now?
also your ofrhz vote was likely on scum, why knee-jerk vote davesaz?

If you think ofrhz is likely to be scum, why don't you mind that you're on the same wagon as him?

[BlackStar]

Ruru what's your read on Math right now?
also your ofrhz vote was likely on scum, why knee-jerk vote davesaz?

If you think ofrhz is likely to be scum, why don't you mind that you're on the same wagon as him?

I was quoting ruru

Oh

[BlackStar]

VOTE: ofrhz
good thinkin tho!

Didn't expect to see that. What brought this on?

[BlackStar]

I like where you're coming from, after extracting a bit more of your thought process.
tbh I think I'm being dumb with ofrhz.

tonally she seems similar to our last game, but there's something awkward there.

also wagon motivation checks out

Could you try to look into this more and see what's bugging you?

[BlackStar]

That's kind of cool. This quick 180 in the way you're talking to me is weirding me out though

[BlackStar]

For all I know it's some kind of tactic. Can't trust anyone in Mafia

[BlackStar]

First order of business:

Blackstar voters, justify yourself.

His classification of things as genuine or not genuine feels arbitrary and made up

finding a reason to scumread me in how I caught up in a large burst of activity but not considering the more likely alternative which is that I had a large chunk of time to sit down and play the game but have been busy otherwise

But probably by far the largest reason is that I have a hard time believing that someone read my scum game in Newbie 1865 like he claimed (my only finished scumgame on-site) and came to the conclusion that I could be scum this game. I kinda think the differences in my gameplay have already been night and day

I'm feeling pretty good about blackstar being town here. <snip>

and, reading the thread myself, i can

see

where his thought is coming from.

Could you explain which of his thoughts make sense to you? I’m guessing you’re not talking about his initial gut read of Zoronos since you had Zoronos as a townlean early

You're changing my words. I didn't say that I read that game and decided you were scum here. I said that I read your game and decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I still wasn't 100% convinced you were town and eventually I couldn't ignore that feeling

[BlackStar]

@ofhrz What do you think about jjh?

[BlackStar]

VOTE: Pintu

What's the reasoning for this?

[BlackStar]

Iso them. They're doing a lot of engaging with other people, and I think it comes from a town mindset here. It's not mudslinging or stirring shit, just good questions

Also wagon was bad

Quote some of these good questions

[BlackStar]

I'd only consider that last question to be good. The rest of it is just general stuff. Also, what does TW mean?

[BlackStar]

What do you find dodgy about me?

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

VC

[BlackStar]

What do you guys think about ofhrz being partners with jjh?

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

It seems like jjh is defending ofrhz really hard and his reasons feel weak to me

[BlackStar]

Honestly, I'm not sure who could be ohfrz's partner of he flips scum so I'm just trying to spark some discussion

[BlackStar]

I'm not sure how you went from disagreeing with people scumreading ofhrz, to being unsure, to agreeing with them, when the reasoning never actually changed

that's a good point

[BlackStar]

Blacky--what if anything did you get out of us talking in real time?

Talking to you helped me to better articulate the reasons why ohfrz seems scummy. It also moved you from scum to null

[BlackStar]

@hewhoswims You had a FoS on Ruru before. Has your read changed?

[BlackStar]

Hitalt, pint and something smart seem town to me. I'm not sure about anyone else yet

Ofrhz: somewhere between null and scum. I don't trust him. He started overcompensating as soon as he was called out. It would've felt more natural if he came back, apologized for not posting much and then slowly eased his way into the game
Ruru: brings up good arguments and hasn't really given me any and vibes so far
Hitalt: I like his thought process. It feels town to me

Petit- zoronos is probably town

Blacky--what if anything did you get out of us talking in real time?

Talking to you helped me to better articulate the reasons why ohfrz seems scummy. It also moved you from scum to null

[BlackStar]

How am I playing the game right now? I've been completely unmotivated since yesterday

[BlackStar]

If there's something I've said that you need clarification on then just ask me

[BlackStar]

What was the case of jjh again?

[BlackStar]

*on

[BlackStar]

I hope everyone understands this is NOT a setup where we should leave any 50/50 lynches for later days..
With a framer out and about, there's absolutely no reason to "have faith" in PR's solving this for us anyway.
I think this should straight up mean that we push for lynches NOW,

but I already know where this is going

.

I agree with you about pushing for lynches on the people we're unsure about. What do you mean here though?

[BlackStar]

S_S sure is scummy here, but if i put myself in his shoes, his position on NSG actually seems reasonable

if i already know smart is town

This is the part I saw as lynchbaity

Like I think scum would be too self-aware to post something that resembles a tmi slip in that way

I noticed that post too, but I don't think that's an actual scum slip

What's tmi?

too much information

[BlackStar]

I noticed that post too, but I don't think that's an actual scum slip

What was the point of mentioning it then?

To let her know that I think she's reaching. What was the point of asking me that?

[BlackStar]

It seems like you're just desperate to find a reason to sum read me. I don't care about "getting credit". I just post whatever. You should focus your efforts on people who are actually scum.

[BlackStar]

I'm around as well if anyone wants to play tic tac toe or smthn

Want to talk a bit about BlackStar? How do you feel regarding him at the moment?

I'm around as well if anyone wants to play tic tac toe or smthn

Want to talk a bit about BlackStar? How do you feel regarding him at the moment?

I actually like him. I thought he was kinda floating by earlier in the phase but much more comfortable he's actually playing the game rn

Leaning town basically.


Where are u at with Bstar?

I really don't know, because he doesn't feel particularly real but I don't know if that's just how he plays.

It sounds like your read is based primarily on effort though which is worrying. Is there anything specific that you'd call "playing the game" that's more likely to come from town than from scum?

Like, why was it necessary to point out that you noticed it if you then don't think it means anything?

You could have just said "I don't think that's an actual scum slip".

The first part just feels weird. It feels like something you would say if you're trying to look like you're thinking critically-- like you're making sure not to miss out on getting credit for noticing something.

Since you know so much, what's my read on you?

Based on all this it seems like you have a scum lean but you're being passive aggressive about it

[BlackStar]

I am being passive, there's nothing aggressive about it.

It's a weak scumlean, basically the same as it was before, so saying I'm "desperate to find a reason to scumread you" makes practically no sense. I too just post whatever, and I posted what came to mind when I read it... but you seemed eager to shut down any semblance of a push that I might have wanted to make.

And the line "you should focus your efforts on people who are actually scum" is silly. If I could focus my efforts solely on scum I wouldn't have to focus any efforts at all. Not to mention that I am most in my element when I am focusing my efforts on identifying town... once more it sounds like a cheap line to keep me off your back.

You'll notice that I'm using the words "seemed" and "sounds". I'm using this phrasing for a reason. This is how you're coming across, at least to me; it doesn't mean that's what you intended. If it's not... I want you to explain to me what you were actually doing and why you think I misinterpreted it. That's how TvT's get shut down.

I was eager to shut down you push. I got kind of annoyed when you made these posts

I noticed that post too, but I don't think that's an actual scum slip

What was the point of mentioning it then?

Like, why was it necessary to point out that you noticed it if you then don't think it means anything?

It felt obvious to me that you suspected me and felt like I had ulterior motives for my post and it was annoying that you didn't just say it outright. I remembered you dancing around the fact that you suspected me earlier, but I thought you did it more times than you actually had. So that combined with the fact that you're wrong made it feel like you were coming up with dumb reasons to suspect me. And I already explained what I was doing.

[BlackStar]

It felt obvious to me that you suspected me and felt like I had ulterior motives for my post and it was annoying that you didn't just say it outright. I remembered you dancing around the fact that you suspected me earlier, but I thought you did it more times than you actually had. So that combined with the fact that you're wrong made it feel like you were coming up with dumb reasons to suspect me. And I already explained what I was doing.

I don't doubt any of this, but the point of my questions wasn't to push a scumread on you nor was it indicating that I did scumread you. The point was to gain a little insight into why you might have said what you did in order to read you better.

I'm trying to engage with YOU. If I were set on pushing a scumread on you, I'd be engaging others in trying to change their read on you.

Also... if you thought I was coming up with silly reasons to push a scumread on you, what reasons did you think I had for doing that?

It felt like a tunnel

[BlackStar]

I'm starting to doubt that ofrhz is scum, but I don't have strong suspicion towards anyone else. The thread has been filled with I depth analysis over the past couple of days but it's overwhelming me a little bit to go through it all. I'm not really good at this type of speculation and it easier to get engaged after the first lynch

[BlackStar]

*in depth

[BlackStar]

HWS's recent posting intensified the scumread.

what specifically didn't you like about it?

[BlackStar]

I see what you mean

VOTE: hewhoswims

[BlackStar]

I see what you mean

VOTE: hewhoswims

Does this mean we’re friends now

Yeah, I just got the matching t-shirts made

[BlackStar]

You're a townlean now. My reasons for tunneling you were kind of dumb and you've been making better posts as the game has gone along

[BlackStar]

Yeah, why, and why to the other analysis too; do you have anything to backup those feelings? I do feel we got one scum because of the stagnation of the game, but the "2 scum in one wagon and 1 scum in other or not voting" seems like a stretch

If everyone votes, then there has to be at least 2 scum on one of the wagons

[BlackStar]

This + her avatar being cute AF makes me think she is town.

I am too adorable to lynch

Also to be completely honest your avatar is freaking me out and I would be glad if I don't have to see it anymore in this game

Here we gain true insight into d1 scumhunting

Lol

[BlackStar]

Nah lynch elsewhere today, I am not a good lynch.

It would be funny if it actually worked when people said this

[BlackStar]

It feels like we're just wasting time until the deadline. Speculation is cool and all, but its easier to make solid connections and cases after we lynch someone. So lets just do that already

[BlackStar]

It feels like we're just wasting time until the deadline. Speculation is cool and all, but its easier to make solid connections and cases after we lynch someone. So lets just do that already

i agree with this. it feels like we're waiting on something that just isn't coming.

i'd like to hear some specific thoughts on what the people off of the jjh wagon are doing / think of that wagon.

It feels like some people just voted for him because they saw the momentum and not because they actually felt he was scum

[BlackStar]

It feels like we're just wasting time until the deadline. Speculation is cool and all, but its easier to make solid connections and cases after we lynch someone. So lets just do that already

i agree with this. it feels like we're waiting on something that just isn't coming.

i'd like to hear some specific thoughts on what the people off of the jjh wagon are doing / think of that wagon.

It feels like some people just voted for him because they saw the momentum and not because they actually felt he was scum

who?

The Worst and pintchurrio

[BlackStar]

You haven't said much about why you suck read jjh. And you haven't engaged with him much since your vote. So to me it looks a little bit convenient. I've been the same way with hewhoswims though, so I don't necessarily think that makes you scum. I just thought it was worth noting that people are hopping on his wisdom but not really pushing that hard for his lynch.

[BlackStar]

*scum read

[BlackStar]

*wagon

[BlackStar]

I've been thinking about replacing out too for the same reasons lol

[BlackStar]

Hey does anyone remember that game I just modded

That was lost because town didn't fucking vote, even in lylo

Stop not voting holy shit its so tilting to see 3 days on the deadline and people actively not using their vote for shit

We did vote in that game. We lost because hewhoswims wasn't there to break the tie at the end

[BlackStar]

It feels like we're just wasting time until the deadline. Speculation is cool and all, but its easier to make solid connections and cases after we lynch someone. So lets just do that already

i agree with this. it feels like we're waiting on something that just isn't coming.

i'd like to hear some specific thoughts on what the people off of the jjh wagon are doing / think of that wagon.

It feels like some people just voted for him because they saw the momentum and not because they actually felt he was scum

who?

The Worst and pintchurrio

he voteparked me for ages then spewed out some nonsensical garbo about his reasons for it

think I've explained in more detail already

Alright

[BlackStar]

I thought he was scummy earlier, but his outrage over his lynch feels like it's coming from town. Also, nobody really seems to care if he gets lynched and nobody is pushing for a counter wagon so I don't think he'll flip scum.

[BlackStar]

I guess JJH's lynch would provide us with a lot of good information. And you're right that there could be a lack of resistance because of bussing. We're just going around and around in circles so we might as well end this already

VOTE: jjh

That's L-1, right?

[BlackStar]

i don't cc.

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

So I'm guessing something smart was killed by the vig

[BlackStar]

Yeah S_S was obviously a vigshot. Not a bad one, could've been better.

NSG being killed heavily implicates the worst, who I was just about to come into the day defending.

I have a hypo-inno on BlackStar.

And I assume HWS was kept alive because his death gives cop/vig another shot. Shouldn't matter -- JK becomes super powerful the fewer scum there are.

Explain this "hypo-inno"

[BlackStar]

I don't know what hypo means. Hypothetical inno? In that case, what is a hypo claim?

[BlackStar]

oh ok

[BlackStar]

I have a hypo inno on ofhrz

[BlackStar]

The post-claim wagon is useless, imo, since it heavily reflects who was present in the thread and not who was scum reading JJH.
No cred for being on a train driven entirely be counter-claiming-HWS.

I am more suspicious of the people that said 'I don't trust that claim' when JJH claimed JK

than the people that piled back on after HWS countered. Town players have no specific reason to distrust the claim, whereas scum already know it's BS and are expecting the counter.

Do you remember who said that?

[BlackStar]

VOTE: ruru

[BlackStar]

I was looking back at the posts from around the time that everyone was voting jjh and to me it felt like ruru was freaking out a little and was trying to redirect our focus

[BlackStar]

I was looking back at the posts from around the time that everyone was voting jjh and to me it felt like ruru was freaking out a little and was trying to redirect our focus

Have a post reference for this thought?

Never mind, I read some stuff wrong lol
UNVOTE:

HOLY SHIT GUYS ALMOST50 IS ACTUALLY 50 WTF

MOST HYPED BIRTHDAY ON MS

HAPPY BIRTHDAY

Happy birthday, old man!

[BlackStar]

VOTE: the worstVOTE:

[BlackStar]

my bad

VOTE: the worst

[BlackStar]

I don't believe ofrhz has stretched that far as she usually tends to when she's scum
Thus town until proven otherwise
Her posts seem reasonable and non agenda driven

I don't know about the meta part but I agree that she doesn't feel like she has an agenda

[BlackStar]

Basically I've already done a metadive on ofrhz (and jjh) this game while I haven't found time to for dave

Hitalt and TW both strike me as townier by tone and higher utility/higher risk if mislynched

Do you have examples of posts from TW that seem townie?

[BlackStar]

I voted for the worst, not mathdino

[BlackStar]

Why do you townread him?

[BlackStar]

OK Dave can be town
Praise be unto gals from north sides
I hereby sheep
VOTE: HitAlt

Lynch TW if he makes it to lylo please

Why do you townread him?

Again, call it a really bad soulread
I have these mental pictures of how my friends would play as scum and he just hasn't really done that
It's not definite but realistically you're better off just seeing if he makes it to lylo and deciding then

My hypoclaim was also bad. I think MathDino might actually be scum here.

and bullshit like this is essentially why we have to lynch either davesaz or hitalt
they're never getting NK'd and they don't seem to understand that TW and i are the ideal NKs right now (besides zoronos)

So your "soulread" on davesaz has changed now? Because yesterday it seemed like you were fine with keeping him alive

[BlackStar]

So your "soulread" on davesaz has changed now? Because yesterday it seemed like you were fine with keeping him alive

my "soulread" was always on TW, not davesaz

context clues, my man

You said "Dave can be town" and then I asked you why you townread him

[BlackStar]

UNVOTE:

[BlackStar]

Penny for your thoughts BlackStar

Especially if you have thoughts on Pintu or HitAlt

I'm not sure about pintu but hitalt doesn't seem as good as he did on day 1

[BlackStar]

I'm starting to get tired of seeing everyone rely on meta to read people

[BlackStar]

Oh and VOTE: the worst

What made you do this?

[BlackStar]

I ʇɥonƃɥʇ ᴉʇ ʍɐs Hᴉʇ∀lʇ qnʇ I ɐlso ʍɐuʇ ɥᴉɯ ʇo ʇǝll ns˙

????

[BlackStar]

Also, I thought Dave was casing the worst

[BlackStar]

How do you do that? lol

[BlackStar]

¿ʇɐɥʍ op

Nǝʌǝɹ ɯᴉup

[BlackStar]

Reading upside down posting makes my head hurt.

soɹɹʎ ɐqonʇ ʇɥɐʇ

pedit: I think it would be better on day 3

[BlackStar]

VOTE: pinturicchio

[BlackStar]

Are we lynching pintu or hitalt?

[BlackStar]

what do you find inconsistent with

scum

-me here

Bolded: I could make this exact same question

- i'm on record for never lying about mechanics and theory as scum. i've stated that multiple times outside of this game, and this is literally my scum philosophy. i have chat records and scum PTs to prove that.

- if you think it's MD/TW, then the correct thing to do here is to wait and see if neither of us get NK'd, not lynch the town leaders who just handed you scum yesterday because you don't like the PoE

- you assume that i would shoot VT NSG (PLAYING HER VT GAME, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE) instead of
-- a jailkeeper, who is stronger every time scum flips
-- a cop or a vig, when i have a literal 100% record of PR hunting
-- zoronos or someone who actually clashes with me

- you assume that i would do the above, which would ruin my ability to say "hey a VT died therefore i'm town" in all future games, when i care more about my towngames than my scumgames (also something i'm on record for)

- you assume that i would PoE myself so hard to the point of having a 2 person lynchpool thinking i can weasel out of it somehow.

- you assume that i would hardbus my framer when i was literally the only one with meta knowledge on him, and when i wasn't planning on shooting the cop last night

- and given that you're unaware of basic shit about my play (how many games have i said "i don't believe scum lies" and "i don't lie about mechanics"???) you've clearly done 0 meta research on me, which means that despite my apathy, i've done three times as much work this game as you have

- Who says you're lying about mechanics? I think that you used mechanics to leave both HitAlt and me between a rock and a hard place.

I mean look at this lazy town: you say "HitAlt and pin are the optimal lynches for today" and bam! Both wagons formed.

- You saying you're one of the townleaders is plain ridiculous, and NSG was the one who made jjh's flip happen, and you've been using NSG' reads since she flipped town, so...

- By the way, that post was directed to HitAlt so neither of those "assumptions" are mine, so I don't get your point.

That's not why those wagons formed. Because of the flips from Day 1, there were only 4 people who could possibly be scum. After process of elimination it started to seem like the 2 of you were the most likely to be Mafia

[BlackStar]

@Blackstar wrong, very very wrong.

What's wrong about it?

[BlackStar]

I lied about the fun hats.

There’s something about this playlist promising swag and not delivering

I’m still waiting for my friendship T-shirt from BlackStar

Looks like it got lost in the mail

[BlackStar]

pintu: Talk to me about who the scum are: Show me some earnest effort to solve the game.
Your vote is on Math, so why is Math a scumsaurus? Or talk to me about who his likely partner is?

I'm in a position where no matter why I say or do, people will push me until I claim. I don't have time right now, I have a test tomorrow and I'm studying with some friends, but maybe in like 4 hours or less I'll be able to carry this game

Sounds interesting

[BlackStar]

I'm sheeping people, but that doesn't make me scum. There's a couple of different reasons for that. The main one is that I'm not strongly scumreading anyone. I mentioned earlier that I think there are 4 people who could possibly be scum. I've been having trouble narrowing it down further than that and I keep on flip flopping because of that. Its hard for me to read these people and I could easily see any of them flipping scum. The other reason I've been sheeping people is that things tend to go horribly wrong when I try to take control so I thought I'd just listen to other people for once because they probably know what they're doing. You said I've been "scummy the whole game". How have I been scummy this whole game? I'd love to see some examples. It seems like your scum read on me is mostly based on the fact that you scum read Math and see him defending me. That logic doesn't make any sense to me though. Scum teams usually don't openly defend each other and vote together. It doesn't benefit them at all and just makes people think there's an association between them. I don't buy that you actually believe this

[BlackStar]

I'm sheeping people, but that doesn't make me scum. There's a couple of different reasons for that. The main one is that I'm not strongly scumreading anyone. I mentioned earlier that I think there are 4 people who could possibly be scum. I've been having trouble narrowing it down further than that and I keep on flip flopping because of that. Its hard for me to read these people and I could easily see any of them flipping scum. The other reason I've been sheeping people is that things tend to go horribly wrong when I try to take control so I thought I'd just listen to other people for once because they probably know what they're doing. You said I've been "scummy the whole game". How have I been scummy this whole game? I'd love to see some examples. It seems like your scum read on me is mostly based on the fact that you scum read Math and see him defending me. That logic doesn't make any sense to me though. Scum teams usually don't openly defend each other and vote together. It doesn't benefit them at all and just makes people think there's an association between them. I don't buy that you actually believe this

Well I don't care if you buy it or not lol I do believe you're both scum, and yes, you don't want to defend your scumpartners for associations, but if you become a town leader and you protect your partner is perfectly possible and you can pull it off. Mathdino could, I'm sure of that. So "usually don't openly defend each other" doesn't mean that scum will never do it in any game ever. Same with Dino "100% rate of shooting PRs"; this could be Dino's great scumgame to get more range for future games.
Sheeping people is not scum by itself, I think YOU sheeping people has come pretty convenient since you've been under the radar pretty much all the game; sheeping + active = good. sheeping + kinda lurky = oh boy. That's what I meant by "being scummy all game";

if you want an essay on you I can do it

, but I'm making a general point, not a post by post case 'cause I'm not pushing you right now.

Bring it on. I'd love a chance to point out some lies and misrepresentation.

[BlackStar]

That's probabably the coolest vote I've ever seen

[BlackStar]

I hypo inno Davestaz

Pedit:

the fuck why would we hypoclaim, there's one scum left

if the cop has 2 innos who are still alive, there are 4 clears and we just chain lynch the 3 remaining
and if the cop has a guilty, they have a guilty

basically the only situation in which the cop shouldn't claim is if they investigated ruru or hitalt last night

anyway last scum is TW, i did a full readthrough yesterday when i was bored
only other partners were hitalt and ruru lol

VOTE: the worst

Why do you think it's the worst?

[BlackStar]

hypo inno bstizzle

what's good fam

Nothing much fam

[BlackStar]

Math why wouldn't we take advantage of the slight possibility of the cop being anonymous

Perhaps one of the rolcop shots was on ruru

Why would they rolecop the person they killed? Hitalt was obviously the vig shot

[BlackStar]

i also claim town by the fact that i was utterly addicted to my hypoclaim

i've been doing nothing but try to draw the NK by being myself all game

that said, had i died last night, it would've immediately drawn attention to my reads, which were "TW is my top suspect on a pintu scumflip"
i'm once again alive as a last ditch effort to tilt me, or because scum rolecopped me and know i'm a VT

TW is going to claim VT, he's not actually the cop

blackstar, if you have an inno on davesaz, it's game over and we've won

I knew that if I made that hypo claim everyone would know I was the cop lol. But I thought that if I was against the hypo claims it would also be obvious. And I was pretty sure that you already knew I was the cop on day 2

[BlackStar]

So yeah, ofrhz and Davesaz are town

[BlackStar]

Since hewhoswims is already confirmed town and zoronos has been the towniesy person in the entire game the only people who can be scum right now are the worst and mathdino.

[BlackStar]

Let's go with the worst first

[BlackStar]

VOTE: the worst

[BlackStar]

Look I townread math and all but I'm not ready to lose this game to the off chance that he's playing straight against his meta okay

I've been worried about him since yesterday, but we still have one more night phase after this so I was thinking we could just immediately lynch him on day 4 if the worst isn't scum today

[BlackStar]

Don't worry hws we'll win this by lynching Math
The double powerbus took me by surprise too but you never know

Lol this sounds extremely sarcastic

[BlackStar]

i mean i can write those same words in my personal diary and quote them all i want
there's no timestamps so i could've just fabricated them overnight

HWS there is no deliberation here

i'm more conftown than zoronos is but that's not the point

i would surrender if i were scum here, there is no point continuing to play when i mechanically cannot win

better off opening the game to postgame commentary

I doubt that you would do that. It would be against you win con and I'm pretty sure it would be game throwing

Wait why is dave conftown all of a sudden

There aint no cop claim here

... I already claimed cop

[BlackStar]

I doubt that you would do that. It would be against you win con and I'm pretty sure it would be game throwing

that's not gamethrowing at all, i've seen scum surrender when they don't have a chance

scum doesn't have a chance here

why would i waste my time

this, if i am scum, is literally the most awful game i've ever played

- don't instruct teammates to claim cop
- provide extra info to bus jjh
- shoot a VT
- bus the everloving shit out of second partner
- don't shoot the cop
- mechanically can no longer win

do you think i would WANT to continue this as scum

When I'm scum I still try desperately to convince the remaining players that in town even when there's no way anyone other than me could be scum.

[BlackStar]

*That I'm

[BlackStar]

scum really only continue here if they have very little dignity / self esteem, or

loves shitposting

. Let me check the player list

should i reserve the hammer for this scumclaim

the entire scumteam claimed scum under pressure fucking lol

scum really only continue here if they have very little dignity / self esteem, or loves shitposting. Let me check the player list

Lol I was about to say the same thing

[BlackStar]

When I'm scum I still try desperately to convince the remaining players that in town even when there's no way anyone other than me could be scum.

there's a difference between being obvscum in a super obvtown playerlist

and being mechanically guiltied or PoE'd in an open setup with no possible outs

if i were guiltied in 7p in an open setup i'd surrender

if only so i could use the meta ingame elsewhere

That's what I'm taking about. In games where everyone mass claims and then it's obvious to everyone that I lied, I still keep up the charade no matter what.

[BlackStar]

It will be reasonably cool but also somewhat egotistical

I think BStar might have been recruited to the scumteam. His avatar is suddenly much more menacing. Thoughts?

I only choose creepy anime gifs for my avatars lol

[BlackStar]

wait I mean

Why the fuck did YOU kill nsg?

Nice save

[BlackStar]

[BlackStar]

Lol messed that up. Oh well

[BlackStar]

yeah, the jokes in the vcs were good

[BlackStar]

Being scum is fun. Its a little bit too stressful for me though

[BlackStar]

I didn't know it was Kung Fu Kenny's birthday lol